July 16, 2021 • 59 mins
Jessica Graham explains the connection between Spirituality and Creativity in terms anyone can relate to and understand. She talks about: Radical Acceptance, Spiritual Bypassing, Compassion & Empathy, Translation Vs Transformation, Toxic Positivity, Growth Mindset, and how to create your own Nerf World!
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More About Jessica:
The author of Good Sex: Getting Off without Checking Out.
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I'm your host, Tony Angelini. Thanks for listening. Find out more at www.creativemindset.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Graham (00:01):
We need access to our full selves in order to
make the art that the worldneeds. And that access to the
full to our full self willcontinue to evolve and grow as
we do. And our love which youwere talking about, like really
radically loving our full self,that's also something that we
will do in perfectly. And that'sthat is radical. That is that is
(00:23):
like, absolute self love when wecan not love ourselves
perfectly. And that's okay, too.
But yeah, I think that thosethose, those themes are really
important for us as as artistsbecause you know, I, I can
relate for myself, as well asmany people I've worked with
where it's like, trying to keepthis part of me at bay, and I'm
(00:45):
trying to shut down this partover here and I'm trying to
pretend this part doesn't existand my art is actually suffering
as a result.
Tony Angelini (00:52):
You're listening to the creative mindset podcast.
I'm Tony Angelini. Today we'retalking with Jessica Graham.
Now, I've been following Jessicafor three or four years now on
social media. And I have to saythat her teaching has had a
profound effect on my ownpersonal journey of healing.
Now, Jessica is a well soughtafter meditation teacher. And
(01:12):
along with that she's an awardwinning actor and filmmaker. And
this combination gives her kindof a unique insight on the
subjects of spirituality andcreativity. Jessica is also a
sex relationship and spiritualguide for couples and
individuals. She's grief andtrauma resolution guide. She's
an international speaker, andshe's the author of "GOOD SEX:
(01:36):
GETTING OFF WITHOUT CHECKINGOUT." Her work can be found in
many apps. I found her in simplehabit, and publications. And she
offers workshops and retreats atvarious centers internationally.
She's a lovely person. And shespent some time with me to share
her insight on the connectionbetween spirituality and
(01:57):
creativity.
It's great to see you JessicaGraham. Jessica is a meditation
teacher, and the author of goodsex getting off without checking
out, which is a pivotal book.
It's amazing.Thanks for beinghere.
Jessica Graham (02:18):
Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to
be here and spend some time withyou.
Tony Angelini (02:22):
Well, you know, one of the things I love about
you, May I call you, Jessica,because we've never I mean,
we've talked on the phone a fewtimes.
Jessica Graham (02:28):
I prefer Jessica to Susan, you know?
Tony Angelini (02:31):
Yeah. As opposed to it. Yeah. Okay. As opposed to
Ms. Graham.
Jessica Graham (02:34):
Yes, please don't. unless it's really your
thing in which case, you know,go for it.
Tony Angelini (02:41):
Or jG? Anyway, just kidding.
Jessica Graham (02:43):
People, people do call me jG actually.
do they?
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (02:46):
The thing I love about you is that I just read
off a bunch of your a bunch ofaspects of your life, but they
are kind of like branches in awhole plethora of creative
outlets. So you're a meditationteacher, but and you're a
writer, and you're a speaker,and you're a film actor, and
(03:11):
you're a filmmaker, awardwinning in and you've achieved a
lot of access and success andeach one of those endeavors, but
they all kind of what'sbeautiful about it to me is you
have all these differentbranches in the tree, but
they're all out of somefoundational beliefs. You know,
it's like what David Mamet sayshe likes to end a play with a
(03:34):
surprising but inevitableending. Mm hmm. So, all these
branches are, like, inevitableand surprising at the same time.
Jessica Graham (03:45):
Well, well, thank you. I've never had anyone
describe it quite like that. AndI really, I really liked that
and appreciate it. And, andyeah, that resonates. I mean,
everything that I'm doing nowI've done some version of my
whole life.Even when I wasreally little. Obviously, I
(04:05):
wasn't like, you know, doingcouples coaching, but in a way I
was, you know, in a way I was.
There's, there's aspects of allthis all of these branches of of
me that absolutely return backto a single foundation. I really
love the way that you put that.
Tony Angelini (04:25):
Thanks! if you were to put that foundation in
words, what are some words thatcome to m ind?
Jessica Graham (04:31):
Well, one word s like I want to say wild. It's
ot quite right. And it's notuite ferral, But it's something
n there. I didn't have araditional upbringing. Really
n any way I didn't have araditional education. I, I
(04:55):
efinitely. I would sayometimes struggle to just to
ind of be, quote unquote,ormal, because I, it's not the
ay my brain is based on kind ofhat kind of the sort of life
hat I've had. And so I thinkhe foundation is based on, like
(05:20):
y own, like, my, my own path,ather than a path that anybody
old me to take, I guess is oneay to put it. Another word is,
ou know, something, somethinghat's coming up is just like,
napologetic. Like, I, that'sind of always how I've been.
(05:43):
nd I've had to learn to beensitive, right? Because in the
ast, that unapologetic nature,hile it could be really great
or some people, it couldctually be really confronting
n a not so great way for othereople. And so as I've gotten
lder, and, you know, older andiser, I've learned to not close
(06:06):
hat part of myself down, butnderstand how to utilize that
art of myself in ways that areoing to be most of service in
hatever it is that I'm workingn. But there is still
efinitely a part of me, like Iad a friend, not that long ago,
ay, you know, I love about you,essica, you just do not care
hat anyone else thinks. And toe, that's such a high
(06:26):
ompliment. And I think that haso exist in the foundation. And
hat's not, just to be clear,hat's not necessarily always a
ood thing, right? Like, but its why I do all the things I do,
ecause nobody could say to me,essica, you have to do this, or
ou can only do that or make ahoice. Like that's just not how
roll. So it's been necessaryo have that strong sense of,
(06:51):
ou know, this is what I want,nd this is who I am, and you
ind of got to deal with it.
Tony Angelini (06:57):
But you seem to have a keen understanding and
respect for other people andwhere they're coming from and
what motivates them. Do you knowwhat I'm talking about?
Jessica Graham (07:07):
For sure, yeah, I mean, I have a deep love and
acceptance for other humanbeings. And so I'm glad that
comes across in the work that Ido. And interestingly, in some
ways, that deep love and thatacceptance also has a foundation
of I don't care. Because, youknow, for example, for example,
(07:35):
you know, my partner and I wererecently watching THE NEWSROOM,
an Aaron Sorkin show on HBO, andthey go through these, like, you
know, moments in time. And oneof the moments in time was when
Osama bin Laden was killed. Andwe're watching it. And you know,
everyone's just so happy on theshow. It's like such a moving
incredible moment. And I justlooked at my partner, I say, you
(07:57):
know, when that happened, I wasnot happy. I was not cheering, I
was not joyful. That's a humanbeing. And maybe it's a human
being that caused a huge amountof suffering and a huge amount
of just tragedy. And I recognizethat and it's not like, woohoo,
let's celebrate him or, youknow, raise him up, he needs
(08:17):
consequences. And maybe thatconsequences death, I don't
know. But I am not as a humanother human being going to cheer
and cry tears of joy, becausesomeone's been killed. Most
people do not share that view.
Tony Angelini (08:33):
Agreed!
Jessica Graham (08:34):
I mean, people that I like to spend time with
do but most people in general,so me just saying that right
now. It's like, there'll bepeople that hear this will be
like, "What?" And so the kind oflove that I am interested in is
the kind of love that transcendsgood, evil, right, wrong. The
(08:54):
kind of acceptance that I'minterested in is like the kind
of acceptance that goes beyondmy personal opinions, views, you
know, patterning traumas that itgoes much, much bigger than
that. So I can't say that that'sI am perfectly in that space all
the time. But that's what Imoved towards. That's, that's
(09:14):
the true north. And so even inthat kind of love and acceptance
and respect that you're talkingabout, there is a foundation of,
"Like it or not, this is how Iam."
Tony Angelini (09:24):
Right! Well, that's great. But what you're
talking about is are you talkingabout as far as transformation
in your book, there's thisbeautiful description of
translation versustransformation. Oh, yeah, excuse
me for pausing. I was trying toread my own handwriting. You
know, in translation is I thinkyou said is a common pitfall
(09:45):
that when people engage in selfimprovement, and making forward
movement, translation can be apitfall and you said that
transformation is the goal.
Jessica Graham (10:01):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (10:02):
Is that related?
Yeah.
Can you talk about that?
Jessica Graham (10:05):
Yeah, absolutely. And just to just to
be very clear, you know thatthat comes from the great
philosopher Ken Wilber, I thatphrasing of, you know,
transformation versustranslation. That's where I
where I got that.
Tony Angelini (10:20):
Okay.
Jessica Graham (10:21):
Yeah, I think it does, I think it does relate.
So, you know, we can translateour beliefs, our views into a
more loving, accepting place,right? Like into a more
spiritual way of being. And it'spossible to really sort of
extend that out in the way thatyou talk or the way that you
(10:43):
dress or, you know, the,whatever the brands that you
use, but the transformation issomething that's much deeper,
and that may not even beavailable on the outside, you
might not even, you might noteven know that that person is,
is coming from that perspective.
I do think that there's a lotof, there's a lot of spiritual
(11:03):
bypassing that happens. And I'vecertainly been I've certainly
found myself in that place inthe past, it's something that
I'm very passionate about withmyself and with with students or
clients, that idea of notspiritually bypassing, which is
something that happens canhappen when you're translating
rather than transforming. Ithink another example is that
(11:24):
I've seen is, you know,sometimes when folks are making
a big sort of life change, maybeit's getting sober or something
along those lines, there can bea translation into whatever sort
of group or religion or sort ofdogma is available for that, you
(11:45):
know, for that move. But therecomes a point where even that
needs to be just part of thetransformation rather than
something that we're we'vetranslated ourselves into. And
that's, you know, in my opinion,you know, it doesn't have to be
anyone else's opinion, but youknow..
Tony Angelini (12:05):
It's a good opinion, I share that opinion.
And the reason I connected thetranslation aspect of self
improvement with the Osama binLaden thing is because of
something you said in thebook... this book is fucking
great.
Jessica Graham (12:24):
Thank you, Tony.
Tony Angelini (12:25):
GOOD SEX.
Jessica Graham (12:26):
Thank you.
Tony Angelini (12:27):
You mentioned that a common pitfall with
translation, when you make thedogma when you become dependent
on the dogma is you... It's likethe when... it's like the common
joke about once you quitsmoking, then you know better
than everybody else, and you gotto get everybody else to quit
smoking.
Jessica Graham (12:44):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (12:44):
Right? So I made that connection with translation
to what you said about Osama binLaden. I think that if we reach
our highest self, we can obtainsome sympathy and forgiveness
for people who do inhumanethings.
Jessica Graham (13:04):
Absolutely.
Tony Angelini (13:05):
That doesn't mean we let them off the hook as far
as consequences.
Jessica Graham (13:10):
Absolutely.
Tony Angelini (13:11):
But it doesn't mean we can delight in... it's
like, I heard in a podcast, youwere talking about Louis CK. And
how his career was destroyed.
Now, I don't know how he's doingrecently. The consequences for
his actions are separate from...
(13:31):
you can still have sympathy andempathy for somebody who did
something pretty outrageous,pretty harmful.
Jessica Graham (13:41):
Yeah, I would say you can, I would say for me,
it's compassion, right? Likemore in his case. And in the
case of Osama bin Laden, it'slike, it's more of a compassion
than a sympathy or an empathy.
Just in my terminology. For somepeople, those words are
interchangeable. But for me,it's like compassion kind of
compassion goes beyond thepersonal whereas empathy and
sympathy kind of denote like asort of understanding on a
(14:05):
personal level, and I can'tunderstand on a personal level,
why Louie CK would do that orwhy Exactly.
Osama Bin Laden...I mean,actually, I can understand
personally, if I look at the bigpicture and look at culture and
look at the world and look athistory, Well, okay, then there
starts to be a differentunderstanding of it. But yeah, I
do see what you're what you'rewhat you're saying now about the
(14:26):
the translation and thetransformation. You can
translate into someone that'sloving and accepting or you can
transform into somebody that'sloving and accepting. And that's
a lifelong process. That's theother cool thing about
transformation. And, you know,creativity is actually that it's
(14:47):
a lifelong journey andspirituality and sexuality, all
of these things that areimportant to me. There is no end
point. There's no like,"Alright, I've done it. It's
over. Like I've transformed!"No, it's like it's this ongoing,
wild magic mystery Carpet Ride.
That's... and I don't know whathappens when we die. Who knows
(15:07):
what I mean? I don't whathappens then maybe it continues
in some whole other way? I don'tknow.
Tony Angelini (15:18):
Yeah, don't trust anybody who says they do.
Because we don't.
I am. Yeah, I haven't been doingmuch lately, given the pandemic.
An d see all thistuff is foundational to what
Jessica Graham (15:24):
Yeah. We can't.
And, you know, but I would sayI'm a little more than an
want to actually end up withwhich is how all this relates t
your creative work. Again, wtalked about [how] you're
writer and a speaker andteacher, which is creative, an
but you're also in, you knowyour film actor. You're model
(15:45):
amateur. I'm a little more thanan amateur, because I do get I
rightdo get paid, but I wouldn't say
that. I'm like paying my billswith it.
Yeah, I hear you. And you alsohave directed some films that
(16:11):
have gotten some pretty niceaccolades. Some...
Yeah, yeah.
Tony Angelini (16:16):
Awards.
Jessica Graham (16:17):
Yeah, a film called Listen, and a film called
into light. Both did pretty wellin like the indie film festival
circuit, and then I did a pilotfor YouTube's women in comedy
initiative, which ElizabethBanks headed up and I was...
Tony Angelini (16:33):
Oh, you did?
Jessica Graham (16:34):
Yeah. So I was selected to do like one of the
pilots. And that was fun. That'scalled "Groupies." That was fun
because it was like on a set,which, you know, was like, set
like it like walking into afriend set or something. It was
very, very cool. I had like, twothere were two cameras. It was
pretty exciting. So yeah.
Tony Angelini (16:54):
So is there a connection though? That's good.
That was a research fail thisgroupies thing.
Jessica Graham (16:59):
It's okay.
Tony Angelini (17:00):
You know, but the "Murder Made Easy", is something
everybody's got to look at. Oh,my God. And But anyway,
Jessica Graham (17:12):
That's David Palamaro directed and I was one
of the producers. And then I wasthe lead in that. And it's, it's
a fun little tiny film with abig heart murder mystery. Sort
of. Yeah, it's fun.
Tony Angelini (17:25):
So your work and your mindfulness studies and
teaching and growth? What's theconnection? Do they support each
other? Does one support theother? Or are they just
completely different planets?
Jessica Graham (17:42):
Absolutely same planet. So, you know I became
very interested in meditation asa little kid, like when I was
like, five or something. And...
Tony Angelini (18:00):
Yeah, like on your birthday. I read somewhere
on your like, was it your fifthor sixth birthday? You wanted
everybody to hold hands andmeditate?
Jessica Graham (18:07):
Exactly. Yeah.
It's like so amazing that apicture picture of that exists.
I was so happy when I found thatlater in life. I have like a
Mickey Mouse t shirt on orsweatshirt. Yeah, so, but I got
really far away from it for allkinds of reasons. And I would
just find myself in meditationevery once in a while when I was
(18:28):
like, in some very dark place orsomething like that. But it
wasn't a regular part of mylife. Creativity - I was very
creative as a child, Istarted... like, I have journals
from the time I was six and assoon as I could write, I was
writing and I was creating playsthat I was directing and
(18:49):
starring in and choreographingdances and like I had a lot of
siblings and so like, andfriends and kids in the
neighborhood, so I would getthem all to like do my shows.
When I was a kid, there weren'ta lot of video cameras
available. When we when therewas one, I would certainly be
interested in it, I think. Ithink maybe when I was 14,15 I
(19:09):
think my sister was given avideo camera was like a really
big deal. And I was always doinglike performances for the video
camera. And I started doingplays when I was about 12. And I
did theater. I mean, I've donetheater since then, not as much
in recent years, but I justdid...
Tony Angelini (19:31):
Well Weren't you the artistic director of a..
Jessica Graham (19:33):
I was.
Tony Angelini (19:34):
...a theater project. I was a I was the
artistic director of somethingcalled the Eternal Spiral
Project, which was a women intheater initiative. And then I
was also the producing artisticdirector of something called
theatre catalyst which helps toget small companies started and
then we also produce our ownstuff as well. So yeah, I did a
lot of theater before I moved toLA. So it was like all the
(19:59):
creative stuff was continuing tohappen. But at the same time, I
was definitely becoming less andless happy, more and more
stressed out. Basically, I, youknow, I'm diagnosed with complex
PTSD. And I was starting toreally see the results of that
in especially in my early 20s.
But through my teen years, a lotof drugs and alcohol through my
(20:21):
20s a lot of drugs and alcohol,just trying to basically survive
trying to medicate, you know, Istarted very young at like, 12,
or something, because I reallyneeded it. Like I really deeply
needed something to reduce thepain and discomfort that I was
in. And so I wasn't reallyplugged into my spiritual life.
(20:41):
I mean, I was, as soon as I hada moment like in nature, I'd be
like, Oh, right. But I wasn't, Iwasn't that connected. And so my
creative life, while it was richand fulfilling, and all of that
a lot of it was based on tryingto get some sort of outside
(21:03):
approval, trying to get somesort of you're good enough
stamp, trying to get my dad tostop drinking, you know, you
know, it was it was based onthese other things, and not
actually based on like the truelove, which when I was a kid, it
was like, just pure love ofcreating and, you know, being
creative. And so what happenedfor me, when I really began my
(21:23):
sort of self discovery spiritualjourney in earnest is that I
actually took a step back frommy creative life, and really
focused on my spiritual life andmy sort of emotional well being
and my recovery. And when I cameback, in a bigger way to my
(21:45):
creative life, it was verydifferent. It was like, there
was so much, sort of, so manylayers of gunk that weren't
there anymore. And so I was justexperiencing my creative self
and my creative expression in amuch more pure way. And that was
many years ago. And I will tellyou, the journey continues.
(22:07):
Because still, to this day, I'mfinding ways in which my
creativity is tangled up withbits of trauma. And I'm needing
to unwind those bits of traumaso that those parts of my
creative self can also awaken,right? because when we have
trauma, and we're on a path ofawakening, that trauma can
(22:29):
create all kinds of blocks andsort of knots. And so it's
something I love doing withothers is helping to untangle
trauma from awakening, anduntangled trauma from
creativity. It's something I doa lot with, with folks and have
done a lot with myself, becausefor most artists, I know, there
(22:50):
exists some trauma tangled upwith their creativity. And so...
Tell me about it.
Jessica Graham (22:58):
Yeah. So you know, and so it's like that
process of continuing to healand awaken and nurture and
nourish the creativity, it alllives in the same sort of
beautiful ever expanding planet,I guess you could say.
Tony Angelini (23:15):
Well, it's kind of almost, To me, it's almost
like a chicken in the egg. Does,you know you're born with...
everybody is born with acreative impulse. Right? And but
what gets you to,,, what drawsyou to the video camera? Right?
Is it the desire for self valuefrom the people who are going to
(23:37):
watch the movie you're doing? Oris it simply that the... Is it
the search for meaning? Or is itthat... in some cases, I find
working in the theater for over20 years, it's that you have
very centered, very mentallyhealthy people, which is a
(23:59):
spectrum, right, there's noreally Health...
Jessica Graham (24:03):
Wouldn't that be nice?
Tony Angelini (24:05):
Health meter. But you know, and then they... if
you get a... if you, if you geta success, let's say Off
Broadway. The reason that's agood thing is because you've...
it's meaningful for a lot ofpeople and it means, you know,
(24:25):
some financial success as well.
And it's very easy to equatethat with personal value. Now
again, I'm not that familiarwith the film world, so I'm
going to speak theater since youdo too, you know, so what comes
you know, it's kind of a chickenin the egg thing. What comes
first, the dysfunction, or thedraw to creativity? And I know
I'm hitting you with somestrange stuff.
Jessica Graham (24:51):
I love it! It's great! My belief, I don't know
if it's true, but my belief isour inherent blueprint is that
of creative, joyful, radiantbeings.That's what we are. And
(25:11):
creativity can be anything, itcan be how you work your Excel
spreadsheet to the SistineChapel. Creativity is... We are
creativity, we literally arecreativity. This is why I work
with sexual energy and creativeenergy as one in the same. I
mean, many people work with itthat way, not just me, it's
like, because it is one of thesame. We are a creation, right.
(25:35):
And so my, my sincere sensewon't say belief, but my sense
is that we are inherentlycreative in a joyful, free,
radiant, healthy, all the way tothe other side of the health
meter healthy way. And lifehappens to us. And for some of
us, life is happening whilewe're in the womb, you know,
(25:59):
life is, for some of us, we arecoming in with generational
trauma, or we are coming inaddicted to a drug or, you know,
we are coming in having livedinside the womb of someone who
was incredibly stressed out orwas being abused or something
like this, right? Like some ofus come in with a heavy load.
One of my healers, likes to saythat about me, she's like, "You
(26:20):
came in with a heavy load,Jessica!", and so it may be in
that case, that already there'sa sense of the creativity, the
creative part of us, and thetrauma being interlaced, I don't
know. But I do think that as weresolve our traumas, as we
resolve our grief, that what isthere is what's always been
(26:44):
there. And that's, that's theway it seems to me, that's the
way it seems to me.
Tony Angelini (26:53):
Well, agreed. And there's a lot to what you just
said. And that's something thatI would like more people to
explore. And part of gettingthere is... there's a lesson...
you teach a lesson by example,without ever explicitly putting
it into words. And again, inyour book, GOOD SEX. You know,
(27:18):
you're very open and honestabout some very intimate things.
Reading, and I listened to it onAudible as well, reading it and
listening to it. It wasinteresting, but it was no
surprise. You know, and so if,and why am I saying that?
Because somebody who works inthe business, theater or film,
(27:42):
it can be very well produceddown to the second is planned
for perfection. And if you couldget to a point where you can
just be with your.. who you are,I don't even want to say
imperfections, because I don'teven think imperfections exists.
I only think that circumstancesdo. And so what I'm getting at
(28:02):
is a term that you use, and Iwant to know if I'm using this
correctly, a way to get to thatpoint is a term you use called
"radical acceptance." Am I onthe right track?
Jessica Graham (28:14):
I think so.
Yeah. Yeah. So radicalacceptance, there's actually a
great book from Tara Brock withthat title, "Radical
Acceptance". And, you know, youtouch on something when you talk
about imperfections. I believethat any sort... of any healing
(28:35):
journey, including, and not justa healing journey, but any just
journey, let's say journey ofcreativity, of spirituality,
whatever, includes all kinds ofselves that pop up, you know,
there's like the one that'slike," I'm the best", and then
"I'm the worst", and like, youknow, and everything in between,
right? And what can happen is wecan decide, well,"I like this
(28:59):
self or that self better" . Andso that's the one that I'm going
to put forward, I'm going topush all the other ones down,
you know, I'm going to, I'mgoing to exile or exclude the
parts of self, that don't fitinto my idea of who I am or how
I am in the world, or what I do.
(29:22):
And that can work for a littlewhile, but eventually, it
really, it really doesn't. Andthose parts of self in one way
or another show up and they tendto show up in disjointed and,
you know, dysfunctional andultimately, they show up in ways
that are creating suffering. Andso the radical acceptance, to me
(29:47):
is about "Can I fully accept"and not just accepted but love
all these parts of self,especially the parts of self
that are causing the problem,right, the part that can't stop
drinking or the part that keepscheating on their wife or the
part that, you know, just eats awhole cake, even though they
promised themselves yesterdaythat they were going to go on a
(30:08):
diet or whatever, right? Likethese parts of self that we are
trying to recover, or we'retrying to meditate away, or
we're trying to, like, self helpaway, can we actually see and
love those parts of self as theyare first? Because that's the
only way that the actualtransformation happens, by the
way, like, in my experience,it's like, it doesn't come
(30:29):
through, like "Get down bad selfgo away!" It just doesn't work
that way. Sometimes, every oncein a while, you got to like kind
of like, lovingly push throughsomething, but for the most
part, like the taskmaster or thecritic, you know, they don't
really work long term. And ifyou do keep them going long
term, there are consequences.
And so that radical acceptancecomes in, you know, with all the
(30:52):
parts of self that come up andcreativity with all the parts of
self that come up inspirituality and sexuality. And
by the way, they tend to bereally similar, if not the same,
you know, and so, yeah, the morethat those pieces of self can
be seen, loved and integrated,the happier healthier, you know,
more more back to that likeradiant, free creative being you
(31:17):
become.
Tony Angelini (31:22):
Amen, beautifully said. And if we can bring that
acceptance to the manifestationof our creativity, whatever that
is a painting or performance ora composition, it will become
more meaningful, in the same waythat again, in your book, you
talk about your relationshipwith your father, and there were
(31:43):
sweet parts, as well. And therewere dysfunctional parts, you
know, and the non literal lessonseems to be, you just accept who
you are. You know, and if youcan accept it and love it...
this morning, I was I went tosimple habit, like I do every
morning. And I said, "Okay, I'mgoing to be talking with Jessica
(32:07):
today. So they get to one of hermeditations." And there's a
series you do on gratitude. AndI went straight to the episode,
cuz I've been through the wholeseries, like three times now. So
I went straight to the episodeon gratitude for challenges. You
(32:29):
know, we all have things thathappen to us that you might
consider bad or harmful. Andyou're saying in this episode to
be grateful for that? And if youcan be grateful for that, how
transformational is it toactually achieve being grateful
for that circumstance?
Jessica Graham (32:47):
Yeah. So I just want to be really clear that
that is, it's an intention, it'san ideal, right?. And for
somebody listening, who's youknow, going through treatment
for cancer, or just lost, youknow, the love of their life or
something like this, I would byno means say, All right, now, be
(33:10):
grateful, be grateful for, youknow, losing all your hair, or
be grateful for the fact thatyou're sleeping alone after 30
years. You know, like, that's,that is not what I would say and
there's always gratitude to befound, especially if we're tuned
to it. Especially if it'ssomething we're paying attention
(33:33):
to, just like anything else,we're paying attention to
something, if we're looking forsomething, we will find it. And
so if you're, you know, forexample, going through cancer
treatment, and you're lookingfor all the ways that life is
horrible, and all the ways that,you know, you can't count on
anything, and you know, thenyou're going to keep seeing it,
you just are. Whereas if you'relooking for the spots that you
(33:55):
can be grateful for, even ifthey're far and few between,
you're going to start seeingmore of that. So just want to
start there. I'll also say thatit's 100% possible to be
grateful, even for the mostawful things. And in some ways,
it's practice. And I'll sharefor me personally, I've actually
become pretty good at findinggratitude for like the big bad
(34:20):
things, bad things. And I canclick into it pretty fast. Like
I remember a number of yearsback being rolled into the ER,
and I ended up spending likefive days there and I was just
immediately in gratitude. Like,I was like, I wonder if this was
the graduates like I wonderwhat's going to come from this.
(34:42):
I wonder what I'm gonna...
Tony Angelini (34:43):
Oh really!
Jessica Graham (34:44):
I wonder how this is gonna serve me or the
people I serve. Like, that'swhere my mind went. It was going
there between that and like, "Ohmy god! This is horrible! Give
me drugs!" But it was a prettyit's practiced. What I'm not
quite as good at Is the littlethings like I've been booking
travel for me and most of myfamily to go to my brother's
(35:09):
wedding in Mexico in December,given, you know, the world is in
a place where that can happen.
And it's really hard to booktravel just for me, like, I'm
like, it's like figuring out theflights, figuring out where I'm
staying. Like, it's notsomething that I enjoy. It's not
something that I'm that good...
I mean, I don't think I don'tfeel like I'm good at it. And by
(35:30):
that, I mean I'm not good at notsuffering while I do it. And
I've been doing it for my ownfamily. And I've been having
these days where I'm just like"Grrr!". And it's funny that
we're having this conversationbecause I actually... this
happened last night with aclient, we were talking about
gratitude. And I was like, Oh,yeah, I got to practice
gratitude with this travelthing. And now you're saying,
(35:52):
and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I gottapractice gratitude." And
obviously, there's tons to begrateful for my family and I are
going to go on this trip, we'regoing to be in a beautiful
place, my brothers gettingmarried, like, I have the
finances to be able to go. So myfamily does, like the ones that
don't, the other ones cansupport like with the trip, like
there's so much like, I'mhealthy enough at this point
(36:15):
that I feel confident I can geton the plane, I might have to
spend time in bed while I'mthere, probably. But I'll be
able to be there. And I'll besurrounded by my family. And so
there's a lot on that level tobe grateful for. And then on the
deep, even deeper level. It'slike the gratitude for going
through the experience that Ijust outlined the gratitude for,
(36:37):
oh, wow, I was suffering. Thismorning, when I was talking to
my mom, I was suffering. And I'mnot now and I have a deeper
understanding of suffering. AndI have an experience of
awakening out of that suffering.
And that's a whole other levelof gratitude. And I could go on,
(36:57):
but that gives you, that givesyou a sense.
Tony Angelini (37:02):
Right, right.
Well, I mean, and that'scompletely different then...
there's a concept, actually abook called MINDSET by Carol
Dweck,
Jessica Graham (37:17):
Uh-huh.
Tony Angelini (37:17):
She's a psychologist. Are you familiar
with it?
Jessica Graham (37:20):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (37:20):
Yeah. Right. So what you just talked about was a
growth mindset. Yes. You know,you looked at that and said,
What can I learn from it? Asopposed to saying, "Oh, well,
you can always find something tobe grateful for that." Because
that's kind of a false growthmindset.
(37:42):
Oh, my God, Ilove that. I've never heard that
term.
Jessica (37:45):
Yeah. Toxic positivity.
There's so muchof it in the spiritual
community, too. It's like, it'slike...
Tony Angelini (37:51):
Right.
Jessica Graham (37:51):
Yeah. And people really use it to judge
themselves. You know, it's likethis idea that if you were, if
you were really spiritual, or ifyou were by sea, and like the
coaching community as well, it'slike, if I were actually a good
coach, and I wouldn't be havingthis problem, and it's like, no,
you're a human being you happen.
You have this job that you'regood at, and you're a human
being like, so...
Tony Angelini (38:13):
yeah.
Jessica Graham (38:13):
,,,toxic...
Tony Angelini (38:13):
So learn from the failures, learn from, you know,
quote, failures, right? And thenyou become, you know,
bulletproof.
Jessica Graham (38:22):
Yeah. Or...
Tony Angelini (38:23):
What do you call it? Anti-fragile?
Jessica Graham (38:25):
Yes, or nerf? I like to think of it as a nerf
world. And actually, my goodfriend and my colleague, Michael
Taft, he said that to me earlyon in my meditation, you know,
journey. I was explaining, youknow, something that was
happening, he's like, yeah, it'slike nerf world. It's like, it's
all happening, but you're not...
nothing's puncturing you.
Nothing's wounding you. It'sjust like, everything kind of
(38:48):
flowing around.
Tony Angelini (38:49):
Yeah, in fact, you almost get better at it. You
almost get better because of it.
It's like somebody's throw...,you know, trying to shoot you
with energy, but that energyonly makes you stronger.
Jessica Graham (39:05):
Yeah,
Tony Angelini (39:05):
It makes you stronger, because you're
learning from it.
Jessica Graham (39:08):
That's right.
Tony Angelini (39:09):
Can you tell me what you meant? You mentioned
something earlier before Whatdid you mean by spiritual
bypassing?
Jessica Graham (39:16):
That can that can look a lot like, "I don't
like this emotion or this aspectof my personality, therefore,
I'm going to pretend like itdoesn't exist,", or "I'm going
to use my spiritual practice, todeconstruct it to the point
where it's not causing me anysuffering, but it's actually
still going." It's actuallystill happening. I'm just
(39:40):
economizing it, supposedly, tothe point where I don't notice
it, but it's still there. Sothose are those are some
examples. It's a tricky one. Andit's why it's really helpful
when you're on any sort ofspiritual path or just like path
of healing, to have people whoknow you and know what's
happening. For you and canpointed out, like, Hey, I think
(40:03):
maybe like, I've definitely beencalled Spock before.
Oh, have you?
Yeah. Which partially is me,like, that's partially how I am
to some extent. But there's alsoa part of me, especially in the
past, where I would really leanon that tendency as a way not to
(40:26):
have to be vulnerable with you,and not to necessarily take in
what was happening for you. Andso that, that's an example of
how I might. And I, I'm happy tosay that it really doesn't
happen that way anymore, becauseI've put a lot of attention on
it over a bunch of years. But itwas something that happened,
(40:48):
where I could kind of just like,just step back, and just not
affected. And I don't care ifyou're affected. And it's all
just fine. Which, you know, isalso some, it's a coping
mechanism as well, from a PTSDcoping mechanism, as well as
(41:08):
maybe partially just how my, mybrain is, and partially a
spiritual bypass. So there canbe layers there, for sure.
Tony Angelini (41:17):
Well, I definitely understand that. I
empathize with that. And, and Icould see what you mean by it
being a coping mechanism.
Jessica Graham (41:26):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (41:26):
You know, it's like, "That doesn't affect me,
everything...", but you get, youknow, it won't go away.
Jessica Graham (41:34):
That's right.
Tony Angelini (41:35):
And the more it persists, the tighter you try to
hold on to the idea thateverything's okay.
Jessica Graham (41:44):
That's right.
Tony Angelini (41:45):
Right?
Jessica Graham (41:45):
That's right.
Yeah, and when you have when youhave like a really strongly
formed spiritual identity it canbecome very challenging. This is
why you sometimes see, like,teachers, big spiritual teachers
have a have a big fall, because,like, they've gotten to this
point where it's like, I have tobe this at all times. But
actually, all this is happening.
(42:08):
So I'm going to act out in allthese ways. And, you know,
ultimately, it doesn't, itdoesn't work. So, yeah, it's
important, it's important. And Ithink, you know, I do really
think as artists, it's importantto be aware of it as well,
because, you know, we need, weneed access to our full selves,
(42:31):
in order to make the art thatthe world needs. And that access
to the full to our full selfwill continue to evolve and grow
as we do. And our love which youwere talking about, like really
radically loving our full self,that's also something that we
will do in perfectly. Andthat's, that is radical, that is
(42:52):
that is like, absolute selflove, when we can not love
ourselves perfectly. And that'sokay, too. But yeah, I think
that those those, those themesare really important for us as
as artists, because you know, I,I can relate for myself, as well
as many people I've worked with,where it's like, trying to keep
(43:13):
this part of me at bay, and I'mtrying to shut down this part
over here, and I'm trying topretend this part doesn't exist,
and my art is actually sufferingas a result.
Tony Angelini (43:22):
Yeah, I've seen that a lot. In the theater,
people are amazing performers.
And then as soon as they exitthe stage door, they're just
completely drawn inward, Theydon't want anybody to see them
and I think it stems from notloving yourself for who you
really are.
Jessica Graham (43:44):
Yeah. And I mean, it can look different for
different people, you know, Imean, what self love is, for one
person might be something reallydifferent for someone else, you
know?
Tony Angelini (43:55):
Sure.
Jessica Graham (43:55):
But I do think that for myself, anyway, the
more deeply that I've exploredwhat this activity of Jessica
is, and the more I've come toaccept the various movements of
this activity and the ways inwhich this activity, dances with
(44:17):
others and is part of a whole,the more my creative expression
has flourished. You know, I likethe last few films that I've
done as an actor are the best,best is the best work I've done,
you know, and that's not acoincidence. You know, the, the
(44:39):
films that I'm working on noware aligned with not just what I
find interesting, but they'realigned with me on deeper levels
as well. And that means thatwhat's going to be expressed on
the screen is going to be thatmuch richer, and you know, yes,
(44:59):
I've been Doing acting class anddeveloping and all these
different ways and doingprojects and getting
experienced. But I do think thatthe healing and the, you know,
awakening and the love and theacceptance they have, they have
a lot to do with what ends upexpressing when I'm working.
Tony Angelini (45:19):
Everything we've been talking about for the last
45 minutes... Is that what thatperson said by you just don't
care? Right?
Jessica Graham (45:29):
I mean, I think...
Tony Angelini (45:30):
see how my mind works.
Jessica Graham (45:33):
Think so. I mean, it was someone that knew
me intimately. And I took it asa real compliment, and I think
it does, I think it doesencapsulate all of that. It's a
compliment, that doesn't meanthat it's necessarily all all
good, right? Like a complimentcan also be "And I see these
(45:54):
parts of you, too.", theseother parts, right? Like, I
want, I want people to see thepeople that I am intimate with
the people that, you know, Ispend my intimate time with, I
want them to see as much of meas possible, and I want to see
as much of them as possible.
Tony Angelini (46:09):
Not caring. I don't think that's a bad thing.
I don't think that's a badthing.
Jessica Graham (46:14):
It's just, it's just how you like, it's just
what that means to you. To me...
Tony Angelini (46:18):
It's confidence.
Jessica Graham (46:19):
Sure, sure. And I think I think I do have
confidence. It doesn't, thatdoesn't mean I don't have
insecurities, but I think Ithink the years of not giving a
fuck like the years of like, "Ido whatever I want!", like built
a kind of confidence that wasn'tnecessarily real. And then I had
(46:40):
to kind of go through a processshedding that self that self
that's like, Yeah, whatever. Um,and I did go through a period
where I felt very insecure.
Actually, it was weird, becauseit was a period that things were
actually all going really well.
And there was success occurring.
But I was like, I don't havethat self that thought
everything... that that was justso tough anymore. Like, I'm just
all like raw nerves now, oh, myGod, what am I doing. And over
(47:04):
the years, different kinds ofconfidence was cultivated, that
isn't based on anything otherthan the confidence that I'm..I
am. And I am in an of, and partof and held by and holding all
(47:30):
of it. So there's completeconfidence in that way. Not in
the personal way, but anabsolute sense,...
Tony Angelini (47:46):
Right.
Jessica Graham (47:47):
...and that comes through, you know,
practice and experience. Andit's also inside all of us right
now. Like, there's no way itcan't be because we are in the
absolute sense, all part of thatabsolute confidence. I don't
know how many times I can saythe word absolute evidently,
it's my word of the day.
Tony Angelini (48:07):
Absolutely! Well, I'll tell you, I could talk with
you about this for the rest ofthe night. But I think people
would do well to read your book,because it is about sex, but
it's really about mindfulness ingeneral. In my you know, am I
(48:30):
maybe I shouldn't say that...
Jessica Graham (48:31):
I definitely use the word mindfulness, obviously.
And I think it's limiting.
Oh, do you?
I mean, I use it. I mean, it'sthe name of my weekly class. I
say I call it MindfulAwakening. But it's not strictly
what I do personally, or what Iteach. It's a it's a part of it,
(48:52):
for sure. And that book, GOODSEX is definitely rooted in
mindfulness for sure. Withtinges of other stuff. I think
something that I can mentionregarding sexuality, is that is
just a little tip for anyonethat's not already exploring
(49:14):
this is that your sexual energyand your creative energy can
absolutely feed each other. Likethere's a reason why when you're
first in love, and you got allthose lust chemicals going that
you feel like you can just likecreate a great piece of art or
write the next great novel, orwhatever. That energy is
flowing, it's moving. Andoftentimes if our sexual energy
(49:34):
is blocked, our creative energycan be also be blocked. And to
be very clear, to awaken yoursexual energy, you don't have to
have a partner, you don't evenhave to be interested in having
sex. You can still connect withyour sexual energy. And so I
like to mention that because youknow, what about someone who's
(49:55):
on the asexuality spectrum orsomeone who's just, like,
celibate for one reason oranother That doesn't mean you
can't connect with your sexualenergy. And I first learned
about that from a Buddhist nun.
I was like, "I'm having all thissexual energy, and I want to
have sex with everyone all thetime.", And she's like, "Oh,
yeah, I remember that for likethe first five to 10 years of
taking my vows. I felt thatway." I was like, wow. And she's
like, "Don't engage with thethoughts, but just getting to
(50:18):
the energy, and then use it foryour art." This was years ago,
and I was just like, so blownaway.
Tony Angelini (50:23):
Wow.
Jessica Graham (50:24):
Yeah, I was so blown away that it came from a
Buddhist nun. And, you know, sothoughtful of her to be like,
you're an artist, so you can useit. And, and you really can, I
do have, I do have a guidedpractice, I'd be happy to share
with your listeners, if you wantme to send it to you, that helps
you to activate the sexualenergy and then direct it into
your creativity.
Tony Angelini (50:45):
Well, that's generous. I'm not gonna say no
to that. Thank you.
Jessica Graham (50:49):
Yeah, I'll send it to you
Tony Angelini (50:50):
I'm sure that would be very helpful. And maybe
I made a mistake earlier. I tendto equate mindfulness with
presence, are those the samething, or no?
Jessica Graham (51:01):
You definately did not make a mistake at all.
And I do see them as living inthe same realm. And I think, you
know, mindfulness can meandifferent things to different
people. You and I are talkingabout the same thing.
Tony Angelini (51:17):
Okay, good.
Jessica Graham (51:18):
Yeah, for sure.
I just think that, you know,well, I had one of my, I had my
main teacher Shinzen. Young sayto me about, I don't know, maybe
three years ago, he said, I wasin the midst of like, a very
dark night, very dark night ofthe soul, like, classic. And I
was talking about teaching, andI was talking about the sort of
discomfort of teaching. And he'slike, "Well, it's just that it's
(51:42):
not you teaching anymore." He'slike, "You've ceased being a
mindfulness teacher, and you're,you're more, you're more of a
Zen teacher. Now. It's not youthat's teaching. And so it feels
weird, because there's not a youa Jessica, the meditation
teacher doing it anymore." Andso I think of that as like, you
(52:03):
know, one way to describe it,like, there are minor features,
there are people who are liketeaching techniques, which is
what I did at one point, andthen, you know, things continue
to shift. It doesn't mean Imight not still teach the same
techniques, but it's, um, yeah,it certainly, there's a
(52:23):
different feeling associatedwith it anyway. I don't know
what comes across. But..
Tony Angelini (52:30):
I love that story. So we've talked a lot
about mindfulness. And we'vetalked a lot about creativity,
and we've, but I don't want tounderplay the contributions that
you're making with sex therapyand sex as it relates to
spirituality. Again, this isa... I don't see anybody else
(52:51):
talking about it. And I think ithas the potential to do a lot of
healing, or to guide a lot ofpeople to healing. And so thank
you for writing that book.
Jessica Graham (53:02):
Oh, yeah. Thank you for the acknowledgement.
And, and yeah, the good news is,is that more people are talking
about it. Now. When I wrote thebook, there was very little out
there, there was one othermindful sex book. And then there
was... there were two, one cameout just before mine, and then
there was one that had been outfor a while. But there was very
(53:25):
little out there that wascombining, you know, spiritual
practice, in a secular way. withsexuality, there's, you know,
there's Neo Tantra, and there's,you know, there's a variety of
some of them quite ancient, and,you know, much respect, but
there wasn't really anybodysaying that, you know, a random
(53:48):
blowjob in a bathroom at a partycould be a spiritual experience.
I don't know if I still don'tknow if I don't know saying that
I might be the only one I'm notsure. I'm sure I'm sure other
people are saying it. I don'tknow if they're writing it or
saying it publicly. Hopefullythey will be soon because look,
there are people who are notgoing to relate to making sweet
(54:10):
mindful love in your marriagebed with rose petals and eye
gazing and synced breathing andwrote and you know, incense,
which again, beautiful, donethat great, love it. But what
about for people who mayberelate to their sexuality in a
different way? Or at differenttimes relate to it in a
different way. I know for me,I've been all over that
(54:30):
spectrum, from like, lots andlots of sex with multiple
partners to, you know, no sexwith anyone to like, wanting one
particular kind of sex to likenot wanting that at all. So we
continue, just like we do asartists, continue to grow and
evolve and change. Same thingwith our sexuality. And what was
important to me was to writesomething that regardless of
(54:53):
where you fall on that spectrum,you might be able to get
something out of it. So that wasthe hope because that's what I
wanted and needed and I couldn'tfind it.
Tony Angelini (55:04):
So would you say the connection between a blow
job in a bathroom andspirituality lies in meaning,
the meaning of the event? Youknow, because of what you said
about rose petals and andlooking into each other's eyes
in bed can be meaningful forsome people and abhorrent to
(55:25):
other people. Right?
Jessica Graham (55:29):
Meaning, um, maybe, maybe meaning. or
maybe...,
Tony Angelini (55:37):
I have the audacity to describe, I'm
interrupting you, and Iapologize for that. I really...
definitions of words are veryimportant to me. And I have the
audacity to define themsometimes, just so we have
clarity about what we're talkingabout. So I define meaning.
Because everybody says meaningis important. And you have to
(55:58):
find meaning in your life. And Ithought, and I asked myself,
"What is this gene se qua that'smeaning?" So I've defined it as
anything that inspires anemotion.
Jessica Graham (56:10):
Oh, yeah. that's beautiful.
Tony Angelini (56:12):
That's it.
Jessica Graham (56:12):
Love that. I love that. Yeah. I mean, yes,
sure. sure that that canabsolutely be one aspect of what
makes a casual sexual encounter,have a spiritual aspect to it.
It could also be something thatcould also create meaning in
that would be actually beingthere. Like being maybe being
(56:35):
sober, for example.
Tony Angelini (56:39):
Yeah, otherwise, the other person can go to jail.
Well, it's not bad. I mean, it'snot acceptable. If the other
person wasn't sober.
Jessica Graham (56:49):
It's that's I 100%. agree there. You know, and
it's it's tricky. It's such it'ssuch a tricky, nuanced area,
which I, which we don't havetime to get into today.
Tony Angelini (56:58):
I know you spend a lot of time on the book with
it. I, in short, I just want tosay this, when you talk about
"yes means yes" And I'm like,I'm listening to that while I'm
driving. I'm like, Yes, that'sgenius.
Jessica Graham (57:11):
Yeah, and I think as a culture we're moving
more towards that. And that's abeautiful thing. And being
present, you know, actuallyfeeling what you're feeling,
seeing what you're seeing,smelling what you're smelling,
tasting, what you're tasting,that will lead towards a more
consensual experience. Becauseif you're really present, then
(57:34):
you know if your body is saying,I don't want to do this, if
you're really present, you cansee that someone else's body
doesn't want to do this, right.
So even if you're not in a spaceof like, you're in that gray
area where it's like, nobodysaid no. But nobody said yes.
Well, in mindfulness presence,meaning based sexual experience,
(57:56):
It mitigates a lot of that, Ibelieve it's, it seems to
anyway,
Tony Angelini (58:04):
Well, again, I could talk with you about this
all night. Thanks so much fortaking time out of your busy,
busy schedule. I like to seeyour Facebook Lives. I
personally can't attend at thetime that you know, while
they're live, but I often goback. And it's cool that anybody
(58:25):
could go back to Facebook Liveis your Is it your wild
awakening?
Jessica Graham (58:33):
Yeah, so the website, my website is
yourwildawakening.com and my, mycompany is Wild Awakening.
Tony Angelini (58:42):
Okay.
Jessica Graham (58:43):
And yeah, it live streams on Facebook and on
Instagram, but I also have aYouTube channel where I upload
that stuff as well. So yeah, ifyou join my mailing list, you'll
know when I'm doing like anybigger events, I don't I don't
send out very many emails. Butevery once in a while I send one
out if I have something going onor something to share.
Tony Angelini (59:01):
I'll put a link to the YouTube channel, as they
say down below. Is thereanything else? Any other
questions or anything you wantto say?
Jessica Graham (59:12):
No, just it was a real real pleasure having this
conversation with you. And Ihope that it's it's helpful to
the to the folks listening andyeah, just sending out sending
out love to you and to anyonethat might might listen to this
conversation at any time.
Tony Angelini (59:32):
Hey, guys, I have to thank the written podcast
agency for providing the ShowNotes for this episode, and the
transcription to appear onCreative mindset.org www dot
written podcast. agency.com Thispodcast is produced by creative
mindset.org
We need access to our full selves in order to
make the art that the worldneeds. And that access to the
full to our full self willcontinue to evolve and grow as
we do. And our love which youwere talking about, like really
radically loving our full self,that's also something that we
will do in perfectly. And that'sthat is radical. That is that is
(00:23):
like, absolute self love when wecan not love ourselves
perfectly. And that's okay, too.
But yeah, I think that thosethose, those themes are really
important for us as as artistsbecause you know, I, I can
relate for myself, as well asmany people I've worked with
where it's like, trying to keepthis part of me at bay, and I'm
(00:45):
trying to shut down this partover here and I'm trying to
pretend this part doesn't existand my art is actually suffering
as a result.
Tony Angelini (00:52):
You're listening to the creative mindset podcast.
I'm Tony Angelini. Today we'retalking with Jessica Graham.
Now, I've been following Jessicafor three or four years now on
social media. And I have to saythat her teaching has had a
profound effect on my ownpersonal journey of healing.
Now, Jessica is a well soughtafter meditation teacher. And
(01:12):
along with that she's an awardwinning actor and filmmaker. And
this combination gives her kindof a unique insight on the
subjects of spirituality andcreativity. Jessica is also a
sex relationship and spiritualguide for couples and
individuals. She's grief andtrauma resolution guide. She's
an international speaker, andshe's the author of "GOOD SEX:
(01:36):
GETTING OFF WITHOUT CHECKINGOUT." Her work can be found in
many apps. I found her in simplehabit, and publications. And she
offers workshops and retreats atvarious centers internationally.
She's a lovely person. And shespent some time with me to share
her insight on the connectionbetween spirituality and
(01:57):
creativity.
It's great to see you JessicaGraham. Jessica is a meditation
teacher, and the author of goodsex getting off without checking
out, which is a pivotal book.
It's amazing.Thanks for beinghere.
Jessica Graham (02:18):
Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to
be here and spend some time withyou.
Tony Angelini (02:22):
Well, you know, one of the things I love about
you, May I call you, Jessica,because we've never I mean,
we've talked on the phone a fewtimes.
Jessica Graham (02:28):
I prefer Jessica to Susan, you know?
Tony Angelini (02:31):
Yeah. As opposed to it. Yeah. Okay. As opposed to
Ms. Graham.
Jessica Graham (02:34):
Yes, please don't. unless it's really your
thing in which case, you know,go for it.
Tony Angelini (02:41):
Or jG? Anyway, just kidding.
Jessica Graham (02:43):
People, people do call me jG actually.
do they?
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (02:46):
The thing I love about you is that I just read
off a bunch of your a bunch ofaspects of your life, but they
are kind of like branches in awhole plethora of creative
outlets. So you're a meditationteacher, but and you're a
writer, and you're a speaker,and you're a film actor, and
(03:11):
you're a filmmaker, awardwinning in and you've achieved a
lot of access and success andeach one of those endeavors, but
they all kind of what'sbeautiful about it to me is you
have all these differentbranches in the tree, but
they're all out of somefoundational beliefs. You know,
it's like what David Mamet sayshe likes to end a play with a
(03:34):
surprising but inevitableending. Mm hmm. So, all these
branches are, like, inevitableand surprising at the same time.
Jessica Graham (03:45):
Well, well, thank you. I've never had anyone
describe it quite like that. AndI really, I really liked that
and appreciate it. And, andyeah, that resonates. I mean,
everything that I'm doing nowI've done some version of my
whole life.Even when I wasreally little. Obviously, I
(04:05):
wasn't like, you know, doingcouples coaching, but in a way I
was, you know, in a way I was.
There's, there's aspects of allthis all of these branches of of
me that absolutely return backto a single foundation. I really
love the way that you put that.
Tony Angelini (04:25):
Thanks! if you were to put that foundation in
words, what are some words thatcome to m ind?
Jessica Graham (04:31):
Well, one word s like I want to say wild. It's
ot quite right. And it's notuite ferral, But it's something
n there. I didn't have araditional upbringing. Really
n any way I didn't have araditional education. I, I
(04:55):
efinitely. I would sayometimes struggle to just to
ind of be, quote unquote,ormal, because I, it's not the
ay my brain is based on kind ofhat kind of the sort of life
hat I've had. And so I thinkhe foundation is based on, like
(05:20):
y own, like, my, my own path,ather than a path that anybody
old me to take, I guess is oneay to put it. Another word is,
ou know, something, somethinghat's coming up is just like,
napologetic. Like, I, that'sind of always how I've been.
(05:43):
nd I've had to learn to beensitive, right? Because in the
ast, that unapologetic nature,hile it could be really great
or some people, it couldctually be really confronting
n a not so great way for othereople. And so as I've gotten
lder, and, you know, older andiser, I've learned to not close
(06:06):
hat part of myself down, butnderstand how to utilize that
art of myself in ways that areoing to be most of service in
hatever it is that I'm workingn. But there is still
efinitely a part of me, like Iad a friend, not that long ago,
ay, you know, I love about you,essica, you just do not care
hat anyone else thinks. And toe, that's such a high
(06:26):
ompliment. And I think that haso exist in the foundation. And
hat's not, just to be clear,hat's not necessarily always a
ood thing, right? Like, but its why I do all the things I do,
ecause nobody could say to me,essica, you have to do this, or
ou can only do that or make ahoice. Like that's just not how
roll. So it's been necessaryo have that strong sense of,
(06:51):
ou know, this is what I want,nd this is who I am, and you
ind of got to deal with it.
Tony Angelini (06:57):
But you seem to have a keen understanding and
respect for other people andwhere they're coming from and
what motivates them. Do you knowwhat I'm talking about?
Jessica Graham (07:07):
For sure, yeah, I mean, I have a deep love and
acceptance for other humanbeings. And so I'm glad that
comes across in the work that Ido. And interestingly, in some
ways, that deep love and thatacceptance also has a foundation
of I don't care. Because, youknow, for example, for example,
(07:35):
you know, my partner and I wererecently watching THE NEWSROOM,
an Aaron Sorkin show on HBO, andthey go through these, like, you
know, moments in time. And oneof the moments in time was when
Osama bin Laden was killed. Andwe're watching it. And you know,
everyone's just so happy on theshow. It's like such a moving
incredible moment. And I justlooked at my partner, I say, you
(07:57):
know, when that happened, I wasnot happy. I was not cheering, I
was not joyful. That's a humanbeing. And maybe it's a human
being that caused a huge amountof suffering and a huge amount
of just tragedy. And I recognizethat and it's not like, woohoo,
let's celebrate him or, youknow, raise him up, he needs
(08:17):
consequences. And maybe thatconsequences death, I don't
know. But I am not as a humanother human being going to cheer
and cry tears of joy, becausesomeone's been killed. Most
people do not share that view.
Tony Angelini (08:33):
Agreed!
Jessica Graham (08:34):
I mean, people that I like to spend time with
do but most people in general,so me just saying that right
now. It's like, there'll bepeople that hear this will be
like, "What?" And so the kind oflove that I am interested in is
the kind of love that transcendsgood, evil, right, wrong. The
(08:54):
kind of acceptance that I'minterested in is like the kind
of acceptance that goes beyondmy personal opinions, views, you
know, patterning traumas that itgoes much, much bigger than
that. So I can't say that that'sI am perfectly in that space all
the time. But that's what Imoved towards. That's, that's
(09:14):
the true north. And so even inthat kind of love and acceptance
and respect that you're talkingabout, there is a foundation of,
"Like it or not, this is how Iam."
Tony Angelini (09:24):
Right! Well, that's great. But what you're
talking about is are you talkingabout as far as transformation
in your book, there's thisbeautiful description of
translation versustransformation. Oh, yeah, excuse
me for pausing. I was trying toread my own handwriting. You
know, in translation is I thinkyou said is a common pitfall
(09:45):
that when people engage in selfimprovement, and making forward
movement, translation can be apitfall and you said that
transformation is the goal.
Jessica Graham (10:01):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (10:02):
Is that related?
Yeah.
Can you talk about that?
Jessica Graham (10:05):
Yeah, absolutely. And just to just to
be very clear, you know thatthat comes from the great
philosopher Ken Wilber, I thatphrasing of, you know,
transformation versustranslation. That's where I
where I got that.
Tony Angelini (10:20):
Okay.
Jessica Graham (10:21):
Yeah, I think it does, I think it does relate.
So, you know, we can translateour beliefs, our views into a
more loving, accepting place,right? Like into a more
spiritual way of being. And it'spossible to really sort of
extend that out in the way thatyou talk or the way that you
(10:43):
dress or, you know, the,whatever the brands that you
use, but the transformation issomething that's much deeper,
and that may not even beavailable on the outside, you
might not even, you might noteven know that that person is,
is coming from that perspective.
I do think that there's a lotof, there's a lot of spiritual
(11:03):
bypassing that happens. And I'vecertainly been I've certainly
found myself in that place inthe past, it's something that
I'm very passionate about withmyself and with with students or
clients, that idea of notspiritually bypassing, which is
something that happens canhappen when you're translating
rather than transforming. Ithink another example is that
(11:24):
I've seen is, you know,sometimes when folks are making
a big sort of life change, maybeit's getting sober or something
along those lines, there can bea translation into whatever sort
of group or religion or sort ofdogma is available for that, you
(11:45):
know, for that move. But therecomes a point where even that
needs to be just part of thetransformation rather than
something that we're we'vetranslated ourselves into. And
that's, you know, in my opinion,you know, it doesn't have to be
anyone else's opinion, but youknow..
Tony Angelini (12:05):
It's a good opinion, I share that opinion.
And the reason I connected thetranslation aspect of self
improvement with the Osama binLaden thing is because of
something you said in thebook... this book is fucking
great.
Jessica Graham (12:24):
Thank you, Tony.
Tony Angelini (12:25):
GOOD SEX.
Jessica Graham (12:26):
Thank you.
Tony Angelini (12:27):
You mentioned that a common pitfall with
translation, when you make thedogma when you become dependent
on the dogma is you... It's likethe when... it's like the common
joke about once you quitsmoking, then you know better
than everybody else, and you gotto get everybody else to quit
smoking.
Jessica Graham (12:44):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (12:44):
Right? So I made that connection with translation
to what you said about Osama binLaden. I think that if we reach
our highest self, we can obtainsome sympathy and forgiveness
for people who do inhumanethings.
Jessica Graham (13:04):
Absolutely.
Tony Angelini (13:05):
That doesn't mean we let them off the hook as far
as consequences.
Jessica Graham (13:10):
Absolutely.
Tony Angelini (13:11):
But it doesn't mean we can delight in... it's
like, I heard in a podcast, youwere talking about Louis CK. And
how his career was destroyed.
Now, I don't know how he's doingrecently. The consequences for
his actions are separate from...
(13:31):
you can still have sympathy andempathy for somebody who did
something pretty outrageous,pretty harmful.
Jessica Graham (13:41):
Yeah, I would say you can, I would say for me,
it's compassion, right? Likemore in his case. And in the
case of Osama bin Laden, it'slike, it's more of a compassion
than a sympathy or an empathy.
Just in my terminology. For somepeople, those words are
interchangeable. But for me,it's like compassion kind of
compassion goes beyond thepersonal whereas empathy and
sympathy kind of denote like asort of understanding on a
(14:05):
personal level, and I can'tunderstand on a personal level,
why Louie CK would do that orwhy Exactly.
Osama Bin Laden...I mean,actually, I can understand
personally, if I look at the bigpicture and look at culture and
look at the world and look athistory, Well, okay, then there
starts to be a differentunderstanding of it. But yeah, I
do see what you're what you'rewhat you're saying now about the
(14:26):
the translation and thetransformation. You can
translate into someone that'sloving and accepting or you can
transform into somebody that'sloving and accepting. And that's
a lifelong process. That's theother cool thing about
transformation. And, you know,creativity is actually that it's
(14:47):
a lifelong journey andspirituality and sexuality, all
of these things that areimportant to me. There is no end
point. There's no like,"Alright, I've done it. It's
over. Like I've transformed!"No, it's like it's this ongoing,
wild magic mystery Carpet Ride.
That's... and I don't know whathappens when we die. Who knows
(15:07):
what I mean? I don't whathappens then maybe it continues
in some whole other way? I don'tknow.
Tony Angelini (15:18):
Yeah, don't trust anybody who says they do.
Because we don't.
I am. Yeah, I haven't been doingmuch lately, given the pandemic.
An d see all thistuff is foundational to what
Jessica Graham (15:24):
Yeah. We can't.
And, you know, but I would sayI'm a little more than an
want to actually end up withwhich is how all this relates t
your creative work. Again, wtalked about [how] you're
writer and a speaker andteacher, which is creative, an
but you're also in, you knowyour film actor. You're model
(15:45):
amateur. I'm a little more thanan amateur, because I do get I
rightdo get paid, but I wouldn't say
that. I'm like paying my billswith it.
Yeah, I hear you. And you alsohave directed some films that
(16:11):
have gotten some pretty niceaccolades. Some...
Yeah, yeah.
Tony Angelini (16:16):
Awards.
Jessica Graham (16:17):
Yeah, a film called Listen, and a film called
into light. Both did pretty wellin like the indie film festival
circuit, and then I did a pilotfor YouTube's women in comedy
initiative, which ElizabethBanks headed up and I was...
Tony Angelini (16:33):
Oh, you did?
Jessica Graham (16:34):
Yeah. So I was selected to do like one of the
pilots. And that was fun. That'scalled "Groupies." That was fun
because it was like on a set,which, you know, was like, set
like it like walking into afriend set or something. It was
very, very cool. I had like, twothere were two cameras. It was
pretty exciting. So yeah.
Tony Angelini (16:54):
So is there a connection though? That's good.
That was a research fail thisgroupies thing.
Jessica Graham (16:59):
It's okay.
Tony Angelini (17:00):
You know, but the "Murder Made Easy", is something
everybody's got to look at. Oh,my God. And But anyway,
Jessica Graham (17:12):
That's David Palamaro directed and I was one
of the producers. And then I wasthe lead in that. And it's, it's
a fun little tiny film with abig heart murder mystery. Sort
of. Yeah, it's fun.
Tony Angelini (17:25):
So your work and your mindfulness studies and
teaching and growth? What's theconnection? Do they support each
other? Does one support theother? Or are they just
completely different planets?
Jessica Graham (17:42):
Absolutely same planet. So, you know I became
very interested in meditation asa little kid, like when I was
like, five or something. And...
Tony Angelini (18:00):
Yeah, like on your birthday. I read somewhere
on your like, was it your fifthor sixth birthday? You wanted
everybody to hold hands andmeditate?
Jessica Graham (18:07):
Exactly. Yeah.
It's like so amazing that apicture picture of that exists.
I was so happy when I found thatlater in life. I have like a
Mickey Mouse t shirt on orsweatshirt. Yeah, so, but I got
really far away from it for allkinds of reasons. And I would
just find myself in meditationevery once in a while when I was
(18:28):
like, in some very dark place orsomething like that. But it
wasn't a regular part of mylife. Creativity - I was very
creative as a child, Istarted... like, I have journals
from the time I was six and assoon as I could write, I was
writing and I was creating playsthat I was directing and
(18:49):
starring in and choreographingdances and like I had a lot of
siblings and so like, andfriends and kids in the
neighborhood, so I would getthem all to like do my shows.
When I was a kid, there weren'ta lot of video cameras
available. When we when therewas one, I would certainly be
interested in it, I think. Ithink maybe when I was 14,15 I
(19:09):
think my sister was given avideo camera was like a really
big deal. And I was always doinglike performances for the video
camera. And I started doingplays when I was about 12. And I
did theater. I mean, I've donetheater since then, not as much
in recent years, but I justdid...
Tony Angelini (19:31):
Well Weren't you the artistic director of a..
Jessica Graham (19:33):
I was.
Tony Angelini (19:34):
...a theater project. I was a I was the
artistic director of somethingcalled the Eternal Spiral
Project, which was a women intheater initiative. And then I
was also the producing artisticdirector of something called
theatre catalyst which helps toget small companies started and
then we also produce our ownstuff as well. So yeah, I did a
lot of theater before I moved toLA. So it was like all the
(19:59):
creative stuff was continuing tohappen. But at the same time, I
was definitely becoming less andless happy, more and more
stressed out. Basically, I, youknow, I'm diagnosed with complex
PTSD. And I was starting toreally see the results of that
in especially in my early 20s.
But through my teen years, a lotof drugs and alcohol through my
(20:21):
20s a lot of drugs and alcohol,just trying to basically survive
trying to medicate, you know, Istarted very young at like, 12,
or something, because I reallyneeded it. Like I really deeply
needed something to reduce thepain and discomfort that I was
in. And so I wasn't reallyplugged into my spiritual life.
(20:41):
I mean, I was, as soon as I hada moment like in nature, I'd be
like, Oh, right. But I wasn't, Iwasn't that connected. And so my
creative life, while it was richand fulfilling, and all of that
a lot of it was based on tryingto get some sort of outside
(21:03):
approval, trying to get somesort of you're good enough
stamp, trying to get my dad tostop drinking, you know, you
know, it was it was based onthese other things, and not
actually based on like the truelove, which when I was a kid, it
was like, just pure love ofcreating and, you know, being
creative. And so what happenedfor me, when I really began my
(21:23):
sort of self discovery spiritualjourney in earnest is that I
actually took a step back frommy creative life, and really
focused on my spiritual life andmy sort of emotional well being
and my recovery. And when I cameback, in a bigger way to my
(21:45):
creative life, it was verydifferent. It was like, there
was so much, sort of, so manylayers of gunk that weren't
there anymore. And so I was justexperiencing my creative self
and my creative expression in amuch more pure way. And that was
many years ago. And I will tellyou, the journey continues.
(22:07):
Because still, to this day, I'mfinding ways in which my
creativity is tangled up withbits of trauma. And I'm needing
to unwind those bits of traumaso that those parts of my
creative self can also awaken,right? because when we have
trauma, and we're on a path ofawakening, that trauma can
(22:29):
create all kinds of blocks andsort of knots. And so it's
something I love doing withothers is helping to untangle
trauma from awakening, anduntangled trauma from
creativity. It's something I doa lot with, with folks and have
done a lot with myself, becausefor most artists, I know, there
(22:50):
exists some trauma tangled upwith their creativity. And so...
Tell me about it.
Jessica Graham (22:58):
Yeah. So you know, and so it's like that
process of continuing to healand awaken and nurture and
nourish the creativity, it alllives in the same sort of
beautiful ever expanding planet,I guess you could say.
Tony Angelini (23:15):
Well, it's kind of almost, To me, it's almost
like a chicken in the egg. Does,you know you're born with...
everybody is born with acreative impulse. Right? And but
what gets you to,,, what drawsyou to the video camera? Right?
Is it the desire for self valuefrom the people who are going to
(23:37):
watch the movie you're doing? Oris it simply that the... Is it
the search for meaning? Or is itthat... in some cases, I find
working in the theater for over20 years, it's that you have
very centered, very mentallyhealthy people, which is a
(23:59):
spectrum, right, there's noreally Health...
Jessica Graham (24:03):
Wouldn't that be nice?
Tony Angelini (24:05):
Health meter. But you know, and then they... if
you get a... if you, if you geta success, let's say Off
Broadway. The reason that's agood thing is because you've...
it's meaningful for a lot ofpeople and it means, you know,
(24:25):
some financial success as well.
And it's very easy to equatethat with personal value. Now
again, I'm not that familiarwith the film world, so I'm
going to speak theater since youdo too, you know, so what comes
you know, it's kind of a chickenin the egg thing. What comes
first, the dysfunction, or thedraw to creativity? And I know
I'm hitting you with somestrange stuff.
Jessica Graham (24:51):
I love it! It's great! My belief, I don't know
if it's true, but my belief isour inherent blueprint is that
of creative, joyful, radiantbeings.That's what we are. And
(25:11):
creativity can be anything, itcan be how you work your Excel
spreadsheet to the SistineChapel. Creativity is... We are
creativity, we literally arecreativity. This is why I work
with sexual energy and creativeenergy as one in the same. I
mean, many people work with itthat way, not just me, it's
like, because it is one of thesame. We are a creation, right.
(25:35):
And so my, my sincere sensewon't say belief, but my sense
is that we are inherentlycreative in a joyful, free,
radiant, healthy, all the way tothe other side of the health
meter healthy way. And lifehappens to us. And for some of
us, life is happening whilewe're in the womb, you know,
(25:59):
life is, for some of us, we arecoming in with generational
trauma, or we are coming inaddicted to a drug or, you know,
we are coming in having livedinside the womb of someone who
was incredibly stressed out orwas being abused or something
like this, right? Like some ofus come in with a heavy load.
One of my healers, likes to saythat about me, she's like, "You
(26:20):
came in with a heavy load,Jessica!", and so it may be in
that case, that already there'sa sense of the creativity, the
creative part of us, and thetrauma being interlaced, I don't
know. But I do think that as weresolve our traumas, as we
resolve our grief, that what isthere is what's always been
(26:44):
there. And that's, that's theway it seems to me, that's the
way it seems to me.
Tony Angelini (26:53):
Well, agreed. And there's a lot to what you just
said. And that's something thatI would like more people to
explore. And part of gettingthere is... there's a lesson...
you teach a lesson by example,without ever explicitly putting
it into words. And again, inyour book, GOOD SEX. You know,
(27:18):
you're very open and honestabout some very intimate things.
Reading, and I listened to it onAudible as well, reading it and
listening to it. It wasinteresting, but it was no
surprise. You know, and so if,and why am I saying that?
Because somebody who works inthe business, theater or film,
(27:42):
it can be very well produceddown to the second is planned
for perfection. And if you couldget to a point where you can
just be with your.. who you are,I don't even want to say
imperfections, because I don'teven think imperfections exists.
I only think that circumstancesdo. And so what I'm getting at
(28:02):
is a term that you use, and Iwant to know if I'm using this
correctly, a way to get to thatpoint is a term you use called
"radical acceptance." Am I onthe right track?
Jessica Graham (28:14):
I think so.
Yeah. Yeah. So radicalacceptance, there's actually a
great book from Tara Brock withthat title, "Radical
Acceptance". And, you know, youtouch on something when you talk
about imperfections. I believethat any sort... of any healing
(28:35):
journey, including, and not justa healing journey, but any just
journey, let's say journey ofcreativity, of spirituality,
whatever, includes all kinds ofselves that pop up, you know,
there's like the one that'slike," I'm the best", and then
"I'm the worst", and like, youknow, and everything in between,
right? And what can happen is wecan decide, well,"I like this
(28:59):
self or that self better" . Andso that's the one that I'm going
to put forward, I'm going topush all the other ones down,
you know, I'm going to, I'mgoing to exile or exclude the
parts of self, that don't fitinto my idea of who I am or how
I am in the world, or what I do.
(29:22):
And that can work for a littlewhile, but eventually, it
really, it really doesn't. Andthose parts of self in one way
or another show up and they tendto show up in disjointed and,
you know, dysfunctional andultimately, they show up in ways
that are creating suffering. Andso the radical acceptance, to me
(29:47):
is about "Can I fully accept"and not just accepted but love
all these parts of self,especially the parts of self
that are causing the problem,right, the part that can't stop
drinking or the part that keepscheating on their wife or the
part that, you know, just eats awhole cake, even though they
promised themselves yesterdaythat they were going to go on a
(30:08):
diet or whatever, right? Likethese parts of self that we are
trying to recover, or we'retrying to meditate away, or
we're trying to, like, self helpaway, can we actually see and
love those parts of self as theyare first? Because that's the
only way that the actualtransformation happens, by the
way, like, in my experience,it's like, it doesn't come
(30:29):
through, like "Get down bad selfgo away!" It just doesn't work
that way. Sometimes, every oncein a while, you got to like kind
of like, lovingly push throughsomething, but for the most
part, like the taskmaster or thecritic, you know, they don't
really work long term. And ifyou do keep them going long
term, there are consequences.
And so that radical acceptancecomes in, you know, with all the
(30:52):
parts of self that come up andcreativity with all the parts of
self that come up inspirituality and sexuality. And
by the way, they tend to bereally similar, if not the same,
you know, and so, yeah, the morethat those pieces of self can
be seen, loved and integrated,the happier healthier, you know,
more more back to that likeradiant, free creative being you
(31:17):
become.
Tony Angelini (31:22):
Amen, beautifully said. And if we can bring that
acceptance to the manifestationof our creativity, whatever that
is a painting or performance ora composition, it will become
more meaningful, in the same waythat again, in your book, you
talk about your relationshipwith your father, and there were
(31:43):
sweet parts, as well. And therewere dysfunctional parts, you
know, and the non literal lessonseems to be, you just accept who
you are. You know, and if youcan accept it and love it...
this morning, I was I went tosimple habit, like I do every
morning. And I said, "Okay, I'mgoing to be talking with Jessica
(32:07):
today. So they get to one of hermeditations." And there's a
series you do on gratitude. AndI went straight to the episode,
cuz I've been through the wholeseries, like three times now. So
I went straight to the episodeon gratitude for challenges. You
(32:29):
know, we all have things thathappen to us that you might
consider bad or harmful. Andyou're saying in this episode to
be grateful for that? And if youcan be grateful for that, how
transformational is it toactually achieve being grateful
for that circumstance?
Jessica Graham (32:47):
Yeah. So I just want to be really clear that
that is, it's an intention, it'san ideal, right?. And for
somebody listening, who's youknow, going through treatment
for cancer, or just lost, youknow, the love of their life or
something like this, I would byno means say, All right, now, be
(33:10):
grateful, be grateful for, youknow, losing all your hair, or
be grateful for the fact thatyou're sleeping alone after 30
years. You know, like, that's,that is not what I would say and
there's always gratitude to befound, especially if we're tuned
to it. Especially if it'ssomething we're paying attention
(33:33):
to, just like anything else,we're paying attention to
something, if we're looking forsomething, we will find it. And
so if you're, you know, forexample, going through cancer
treatment, and you're lookingfor all the ways that life is
horrible, and all the ways that,you know, you can't count on
anything, and you know, thenyou're going to keep seeing it,
you just are. Whereas if you'relooking for the spots that you
(33:55):
can be grateful for, even ifthey're far and few between,
you're going to start seeingmore of that. So just want to
start there. I'll also say thatit's 100% possible to be
grateful, even for the mostawful things. And in some ways,
it's practice. And I'll sharefor me personally, I've actually
become pretty good at findinggratitude for like the big bad
(34:20):
things, bad things. And I canclick into it pretty fast. Like
I remember a number of yearsback being rolled into the ER,
and I ended up spending likefive days there and I was just
immediately in gratitude. Like,I was like, I wonder if this was
the graduates like I wonderwhat's going to come from this.
(34:42):
I wonder what I'm gonna...
Tony Angelini (34:43):
Oh really!
Jessica Graham (34:44):
I wonder how this is gonna serve me or the
people I serve. Like, that'swhere my mind went. It was going
there between that and like, "Ohmy god! This is horrible! Give
me drugs!" But it was a prettyit's practiced. What I'm not
quite as good at Is the littlethings like I've been booking
travel for me and most of myfamily to go to my brother's
(35:09):
wedding in Mexico in December,given, you know, the world is in
a place where that can happen.
And it's really hard to booktravel just for me, like, I'm
like, it's like figuring out theflights, figuring out where I'm
staying. Like, it's notsomething that I enjoy. It's not
something that I'm that good...
I mean, I don't think I don'tfeel like I'm good at it. And by
(35:30):
that, I mean I'm not good at notsuffering while I do it. And
I've been doing it for my ownfamily. And I've been having
these days where I'm just like"Grrr!". And it's funny that
we're having this conversationbecause I actually... this
happened last night with aclient, we were talking about
gratitude. And I was like, Oh,yeah, I got to practice
gratitude with this travelthing. And now you're saying,
(35:52):
and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I gottapractice gratitude." And
obviously, there's tons to begrateful for my family and I are
going to go on this trip, we'regoing to be in a beautiful
place, my brothers gettingmarried, like, I have the
finances to be able to go. So myfamily does, like the ones that
don't, the other ones cansupport like with the trip, like
there's so much like, I'mhealthy enough at this point
(36:15):
that I feel confident I can geton the plane, I might have to
spend time in bed while I'mthere, probably. But I'll be
able to be there. And I'll besurrounded by my family. And so
there's a lot on that level tobe grateful for. And then on the
deep, even deeper level. It'slike the gratitude for going
through the experience that Ijust outlined the gratitude for,
(36:37):
oh, wow, I was suffering. Thismorning, when I was talking to
my mom, I was suffering. And I'mnot now and I have a deeper
understanding of suffering. AndI have an experience of
awakening out of that suffering.
And that's a whole other levelof gratitude. And I could go on,
(36:57):
but that gives you, that givesyou a sense.
Tony Angelini (37:02):
Right, right.
Well, I mean, and that'scompletely different then...
there's a concept, actually abook called MINDSET by Carol
Dweck,
Jessica Graham (37:17):
Uh-huh.
Tony Angelini (37:17):
She's a psychologist. Are you familiar
with it?
Jessica Graham (37:20):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (37:20):
Yeah. Right. So what you just talked about was a
growth mindset. Yes. You know,you looked at that and said,
What can I learn from it? Asopposed to saying, "Oh, well,
you can always find something tobe grateful for that." Because
that's kind of a false growthmindset.
(37:42):
Oh, my God, Ilove that. I've never heard that
term.
Jessica (37:45):
Yeah. Toxic positivity.
There's so muchof it in the spiritual
community, too. It's like, it'slike...
Tony Angelini (37:51):
Right.
Jessica Graham (37:51):
Yeah. And people really use it to judge
themselves. You know, it's likethis idea that if you were, if
you were really spiritual, or ifyou were by sea, and like the
coaching community as well, it'slike, if I were actually a good
coach, and I wouldn't be havingthis problem, and it's like, no,
you're a human being you happen.
You have this job that you'regood at, and you're a human
being like, so...
Tony Angelini (38:13):
yeah.
Jessica Graham (38:13):
,,,toxic...
Tony Angelini (38:13):
So learn from the failures, learn from, you know,
quote, failures, right? And thenyou become, you know,
bulletproof.
Jessica Graham (38:22):
Yeah. Or...
Tony Angelini (38:23):
What do you call it? Anti-fragile?
Jessica Graham (38:25):
Yes, or nerf? I like to think of it as a nerf
world. And actually, my goodfriend and my colleague, Michael
Taft, he said that to me earlyon in my meditation, you know,
journey. I was explaining, youknow, something that was
happening, he's like, yeah, it'slike nerf world. It's like, it's
all happening, but you're not...
nothing's puncturing you.
Nothing's wounding you. It'sjust like, everything kind of
(38:48):
flowing around.
Tony Angelini (38:49):
Yeah, in fact, you almost get better at it. You
almost get better because of it.
It's like somebody's throw...,you know, trying to shoot you
with energy, but that energyonly makes you stronger.
Jessica Graham (39:05):
Yeah,
Tony Angelini (39:05):
It makes you stronger, because you're
learning from it.
Jessica Graham (39:08):
That's right.
Tony Angelini (39:09):
Can you tell me what you meant? You mentioned
something earlier before Whatdid you mean by spiritual
bypassing?
Jessica Graham (39:16):
That can that can look a lot like, "I don't
like this emotion or this aspectof my personality, therefore,
I'm going to pretend like itdoesn't exist,", or "I'm going
to use my spiritual practice, todeconstruct it to the point
where it's not causing me anysuffering, but it's actually
still going." It's actuallystill happening. I'm just
(39:40):
economizing it, supposedly, tothe point where I don't notice
it, but it's still there. Sothose are those are some
examples. It's a tricky one. Andit's why it's really helpful
when you're on any sort ofspiritual path or just like path
of healing, to have people whoknow you and know what's
happening. For you and canpointed out, like, Hey, I think
(40:03):
maybe like, I've definitely beencalled Spock before.
Oh, have you?
Yeah. Which partially is me,like, that's partially how I am
to some extent. But there's alsoa part of me, especially in the
past, where I would really leanon that tendency as a way not to
(40:26):
have to be vulnerable with you,and not to necessarily take in
what was happening for you. Andso that, that's an example of
how I might. And I, I'm happy tosay that it really doesn't
happen that way anymore, becauseI've put a lot of attention on
it over a bunch of years. But itwas something that happened,
(40:48):
where I could kind of just like,just step back, and just not
affected. And I don't care ifyou're affected. And it's all
just fine. Which, you know, isalso some, it's a coping
mechanism as well, from a PTSDcoping mechanism, as well as
(41:08):
maybe partially just how my, mybrain is, and partially a
spiritual bypass. So there canbe layers there, for sure.
Tony Angelini (41:17):
Well, I definitely understand that. I
empathize with that. And, and Icould see what you mean by it
being a coping mechanism.
Jessica Graham (41:26):
Yeah.
Tony Angelini (41:26):
You know, it's like, "That doesn't affect me,
everything...", but you get, youknow, it won't go away.
Jessica Graham (41:34):
That's right.
Tony Angelini (41:35):
And the more it persists, the tighter you try to
hold on to the idea thateverything's okay.
Jessica Graham (41:44):
That's right.
Tony Angelini (41:45):
Right?
Jessica Graham (41:45):
That's right.
Yeah, and when you have when youhave like a really strongly
formed spiritual identity it canbecome very challenging. This is
why you sometimes see, like,teachers, big spiritual teachers
have a have a big fall, because,like, they've gotten to this
point where it's like, I have tobe this at all times. But
actually, all this is happening.
(42:08):
So I'm going to act out in allthese ways. And, you know,
ultimately, it doesn't, itdoesn't work. So, yeah, it's
important, it's important. And Ithink, you know, I do really
think as artists, it's importantto be aware of it as well,
because, you know, we need, weneed access to our full selves,
(42:31):
in order to make the art thatthe world needs. And that access
to the full to our full selfwill continue to evolve and grow
as we do. And our love which youwere talking about, like really
radically loving our full self,that's also something that we
will do in perfectly. Andthat's, that is radical, that is
(42:52):
that is like, absolute selflove, when we can not love
ourselves perfectly. And that'sokay, too. But yeah, I think
that those those, those themesare really important for us as
as artists, because you know, I,I can relate for myself, as well
as many people I've worked with,where it's like, trying to keep
(43:13):
this part of me at bay, and I'mtrying to shut down this part
over here, and I'm trying topretend this part doesn't exist,
and my art is actually sufferingas a result.
Tony Angelini (43:22):
Yeah, I've seen that a lot. In the theater,
people are amazing performers.
And then as soon as they exitthe stage door, they're just
completely drawn inward, Theydon't want anybody to see them
and I think it stems from notloving yourself for who you
really are.
Jessica Graham (43:44):
Yeah. And I mean, it can look different for
different people, you know, Imean, what self love is, for one
person might be something reallydifferent for someone else, you
know?
Tony Angelini (43:55):
Sure.
Jessica Graham (43:55):
But I do think that for myself, anyway, the
more deeply that I've exploredwhat this activity of Jessica
is, and the more I've come toaccept the various movements of
this activity and the ways inwhich this activity, dances with
(44:17):
others and is part of a whole,the more my creative expression
has flourished. You know, I likethe last few films that I've
done as an actor are the best,best is the best work I've done,
you know, and that's not acoincidence. You know, the, the
(44:39):
films that I'm working on noware aligned with not just what I
find interesting, but they'realigned with me on deeper levels
as well. And that means thatwhat's going to be expressed on
the screen is going to be thatmuch richer, and you know, yes,
(44:59):
I've been Doing acting class anddeveloping and all these
different ways and doingprojects and getting
experienced. But I do think thatthe healing and the, you know,
awakening and the love and theacceptance they have, they have
a lot to do with what ends upexpressing when I'm working.
Tony Angelini (45:19):
Everything we've been talking about for the last
45 minutes... Is that what thatperson said by you just don't
care? Right?
Jessica Graham (45:29):
I mean, I think...
Tony Angelini (45:30):
see how my mind works.
Jessica Graham (45:33):
Think so. I mean, it was someone that knew
me intimately. And I took it asa real compliment, and I think
it does, I think it doesencapsulate all of that. It's a
compliment, that doesn't meanthat it's necessarily all all
good, right? Like a complimentcan also be "And I see these
(45:54):
parts of you, too.", theseother parts, right? Like, I
want, I want people to see thepeople that I am intimate with
the people that, you know, Ispend my intimate time with, I
want them to see as much of meas possible, and I want to see
as much of them as possible.
Tony Angelini (46:09):
Not caring. I don't think that's a bad thing.
I don't think that's a badthing.
Jessica Graham (46:14):
It's just, it's just how you like, it's just
what that means to you. To me...
Tony Angelini (46:18):
It's confidence.
Jessica Graham (46:19):
Sure, sure. And I think I think I do have
confidence. It doesn't, thatdoesn't mean I don't have
insecurities, but I think Ithink the years of not giving a
fuck like the years of like, "Ido whatever I want!", like built
a kind of confidence that wasn'tnecessarily real. And then I had
(46:40):
to kind of go through a processshedding that self that self
that's like, Yeah, whatever. Um,and I did go through a period
where I felt very insecure.
Actually, it was weird, becauseit was a period that things were
actually all going really well.
And there was success occurring.
But I was like, I don't havethat self that thought
everything... that that was justso tough anymore. Like, I'm just
all like raw nerves now, oh, myGod, what am I doing. And over
(47:04):
the years, different kinds ofconfidence was cultivated, that
isn't based on anything otherthan the confidence that I'm..I
am. And I am in an of, and partof and held by and holding all
(47:30):
of it. So there's completeconfidence in that way. Not in
the personal way, but anabsolute sense,...
Tony Angelini (47:46):
Right.
Jessica Graham (47:47):
...and that comes through, you know,
practice and experience. Andit's also inside all of us right
now. Like, there's no way itcan't be because we are in the
absolute sense, all part of thatabsolute confidence. I don't
know how many times I can saythe word absolute evidently,
it's my word of the day.
Tony Angelini (48:07):
Absolutely! Well, I'll tell you, I could talk with
you about this for the rest ofthe night. But I think people
would do well to read your book,because it is about sex, but
it's really about mindfulness ingeneral. In my you know, am I
(48:30):
maybe I shouldn't say that...
Jessica Graham (48:31):
I definitely use the word mindfulness, obviously.
And I think it's limiting.
Oh, do you?
I mean, I use it. I mean, it'sthe name of my weekly class. I
say I call it MindfulAwakening. But it's not strictly
what I do personally, or what Iteach. It's a it's a part of it,
(48:52):
for sure. And that book, GOODSEX is definitely rooted in
mindfulness for sure. Withtinges of other stuff. I think
something that I can mentionregarding sexuality, is that is
just a little tip for anyonethat's not already exploring
(49:14):
this is that your sexual energyand your creative energy can
absolutely feed each other. Likethere's a reason why when you're
first in love, and you got allthose lust chemicals going that
you feel like you can just likecreate a great piece of art or
write the next great novel, orwhatever. That energy is
flowing, it's moving. Andoftentimes if our sexual energy
(49:34):
is blocked, our creative energycan be also be blocked. And to
be very clear, to awaken yoursexual energy, you don't have to
have a partner, you don't evenhave to be interested in having
sex. You can still connect withyour sexual energy. And so I
like to mention that because youknow, what about someone who's
(49:55):
on the asexuality spectrum orsomeone who's just, like,
celibate for one reason oranother That doesn't mean you
can't connect with your sexualenergy. And I first learned
about that from a Buddhist nun.
I was like, "I'm having all thissexual energy, and I want to
have sex with everyone all thetime.", And she's like, "Oh,
yeah, I remember that for likethe first five to 10 years of
taking my vows. I felt thatway." I was like, wow. And she's
like, "Don't engage with thethoughts, but just getting to
(50:18):
the energy, and then use it foryour art." This was years ago,
and I was just like, so blownaway.
Tony Angelini (50:23):
Wow.
Jessica Graham (50:24):
Yeah, I was so blown away that it came from a
Buddhist nun. And, you know, sothoughtful of her to be like,
you're an artist, so you can useit. And, and you really can, I
do have, I do have a guidedpractice, I'd be happy to share
with your listeners, if you wantme to send it to you, that helps
you to activate the sexualenergy and then direct it into
your creativity.
Tony Angelini (50:45):
Well, that's generous. I'm not gonna say no
to that. Thank you.
Jessica Graham (50:49):
Yeah, I'll send it to you
Tony Angelini (50:50):
I'm sure that would be very helpful. And maybe
I made a mistake earlier. I tendto equate mindfulness with
presence, are those the samething, or no?
Jessica Graham (51:01):
You definately did not make a mistake at all.
And I do see them as living inthe same realm. And I think, you
know, mindfulness can meandifferent things to different
people. You and I are talkingabout the same thing.
Tony Angelini (51:17):
Okay, good.
Jessica Graham (51:18):
Yeah, for sure.
I just think that, you know,well, I had one of my, I had my
main teacher Shinzen. Young sayto me about, I don't know, maybe
three years ago, he said, I wasin the midst of like, a very
dark night, very dark night ofthe soul, like, classic. And I
was talking about teaching, andI was talking about the sort of
discomfort of teaching. And he'slike, "Well, it's just that it's
(51:42):
not you teaching anymore." He'slike, "You've ceased being a
mindfulness teacher, and you're,you're more, you're more of a
Zen teacher. Now. It's not youthat's teaching. And so it feels
weird, because there's not a youa Jessica, the meditation
teacher doing it anymore." Andso I think of that as like, you
(52:03):
know, one way to describe it,like, there are minor features,
there are people who are liketeaching techniques, which is
what I did at one point, andthen, you know, things continue
to shift. It doesn't mean Imight not still teach the same
techniques, but it's, um, yeah,it certainly, there's a
(52:23):
different feeling associatedwith it anyway. I don't know
what comes across. But..
Tony Angelini (52:30):
I love that story. So we've talked a lot
about mindfulness. And we'vetalked a lot about creativity,
and we've, but I don't want tounderplay the contributions that
you're making with sex therapyand sex as it relates to
spirituality. Again, this isa... I don't see anybody else
(52:51):
talking about it. And I think ithas the potential to do a lot of
healing, or to guide a lot ofpeople to healing. And so thank
you for writing that book.
Jessica Graham (53:02):
Oh, yeah. Thank you for the acknowledgement.
And, and yeah, the good news is,is that more people are talking
about it. Now. When I wrote thebook, there was very little out
there, there was one othermindful sex book. And then there
was... there were two, one cameout just before mine, and then
there was one that had been outfor a while. But there was very
(53:25):
little out there that wascombining, you know, spiritual
practice, in a secular way. withsexuality, there's, you know,
there's Neo Tantra, and there's,you know, there's a variety of
some of them quite ancient, and,you know, much respect, but
there wasn't really anybodysaying that, you know, a random
(53:48):
blowjob in a bathroom at a partycould be a spiritual experience.
I don't know if I still don'tknow if I don't know saying that
I might be the only one I'm notsure. I'm sure I'm sure other
people are saying it. I don'tknow if they're writing it or
saying it publicly. Hopefullythey will be soon because look,
there are people who are notgoing to relate to making sweet
(54:10):
mindful love in your marriagebed with rose petals and eye
gazing and synced breathing andwrote and you know, incense,
which again, beautiful, donethat great, love it. But what
about for people who mayberelate to their sexuality in a
different way? Or at differenttimes relate to it in a
different way. I know for me,I've been all over that
(54:30):
spectrum, from like, lots andlots of sex with multiple
partners to, you know, no sexwith anyone to like, wanting one
particular kind of sex to likenot wanting that at all. So we
continue, just like we do asartists, continue to grow and
evolve and change. Same thingwith our sexuality. And what was
important to me was to writesomething that regardless of
(54:53):
where you fall on that spectrum,you might be able to get
something out of it. So that wasthe hope because that's what I
wanted and needed and I couldn'tfind it.
Tony Angelini (55:04):
So would you say the connection between a blow
job in a bathroom andspirituality lies in meaning,
the meaning of the event? Youknow, because of what you said
about rose petals and andlooking into each other's eyes
in bed can be meaningful forsome people and abhorrent to
(55:25):
other people. Right?
Jessica Graham (55:29):
Meaning, um, maybe, maybe meaning. or
maybe...,
Tony Angelini (55:37):
I have the audacity to describe, I'm
interrupting you, and Iapologize for that. I really...
definitions of words are veryimportant to me. And I have the
audacity to define themsometimes, just so we have
clarity about what we're talkingabout. So I define meaning.
Because everybody says meaningis important. And you have to
(55:58):
find meaning in your life. And Ithought, and I asked myself,
"What is this gene se qua that'smeaning?" So I've defined it as
anything that inspires anemotion.
Jessica Graham (56:10):
Oh, yeah. that's beautiful.
Tony Angelini (56:12):
That's it.
Jessica Graham (56:12):
Love that. I love that. Yeah. I mean, yes,
sure. sure that that canabsolutely be one aspect of what
makes a casual sexual encounter,have a spiritual aspect to it.
It could also be something thatcould also create meaning in
that would be actually beingthere. Like being maybe being
(56:35):
sober, for example.
Tony Angelini (56:39):
Yeah, otherwise, the other person can go to jail.
Well, it's not bad. I mean, it'snot acceptable. If the other
person wasn't sober.
Jessica Graham (56:49):
It's that's I 100%. agree there. You know, and
it's it's tricky. It's such it'ssuch a tricky, nuanced area,
which I, which we don't havetime to get into today.
Tony Angelini (56:58):
I know you spend a lot of time on the book with
it. I, in short, I just want tosay this, when you talk about
"yes means yes" And I'm like,I'm listening to that while I'm
driving. I'm like, Yes, that'sgenius.
Jessica Graham (57:11):
Yeah, and I think as a culture we're moving
more towards that. And that's abeautiful thing. And being
present, you know, actuallyfeeling what you're feeling,
seeing what you're seeing,smelling what you're smelling,
tasting, what you're tasting,that will lead towards a more
consensual experience. Becauseif you're really present, then
(57:34):
you know if your body is saying,I don't want to do this, if
you're really present, you cansee that someone else's body
doesn't want to do this, right.
So even if you're not in a spaceof like, you're in that gray
area where it's like, nobodysaid no. But nobody said yes.
Well, in mindfulness presence,meaning based sexual experience,
(57:56):
It mitigates a lot of that, Ibelieve it's, it seems to
anyway,
Tony Angelini (58:04):
Well, again, I could talk with you about this
all night. Thanks so much fortaking time out of your busy,
busy schedule. I like to seeyour Facebook Lives. I
personally can't attend at thetime that you know, while
they're live, but I often goback. And it's cool that anybody
(58:25):
could go back to Facebook Liveis your Is it your wild
awakening?
Jessica Graham (58:33):
Yeah, so the website, my website is
yourwildawakening.com and my, mycompany is Wild Awakening.
Tony Angelini (58:42):
Okay.
Jessica Graham (58:43):
And yeah, it live streams on Facebook and on
Instagram, but I also have aYouTube channel where I upload
that stuff as well. So yeah, ifyou join my mailing list, you'll
know when I'm doing like anybigger events, I don't I don't
send out very many emails. Butevery once in a while I send one
out if I have something going onor something to share.
Tony Angelini (59:01):
I'll put a link to the YouTube channel, as they
say down below. Is thereanything else? Any other
questions or anything you wantto say?
Jessica Graham (59:12):
No, just it was a real real pleasure having this
conversation with you. And Ihope that it's it's helpful to
the to the folks listening andyeah, just sending out sending
out love to you and to anyonethat might might listen to this
conversation at any time.
Tony Angelini (59:32):
Hey, guys, I have to thank the written podcast
agency for providing the ShowNotes for this episode, and the
transcription to appear onCreative mindset.org www dot
written podcast. agency.com Thispodcast is produced by creative
mindset.org
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