March 3, 2025 • 22 mins
This podcast will discuss what the Vatican archives are hiding, is there many secrets that the public and the world does not know? Why there's no transparency or if not perhaps a little? And how can the Vatican keep up with the modern times, where opening its doors will shed a light from shrouded secrecy from centuries and millienia of history of the world?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to the Deep Dive.
(00:01):
Today, we're going behind the scenes
at one of the most, well, I think fascinating
and mysterious places in the world.
I agree.
The Vatican.
Yeah, yeah.
The place that's always shown in movies and books as like.
Shrouded in secrecy.
Yeah, a fortress of secrets.
Exactly.
So we are gonna try to figure out.
Unpack that a little.
(00:22):
Yeah, what's really real
and what's maybe a little bit more fictional.
Right.
And we're doing that today
using the Vatican Library as an archives.
Which is so interesting
because what people don't often realize
is that the Vatican isn't just this religious center,
it's like this gold mine of documents
and historical records.
I know.
Some of them are over 1,500 years old.
(00:43):
It's insane when you think about it,
like centuries of correspondence between popes
and different leaders and stuff.
Records of diplomacy between.
Oh, we know.
Empires and nations.
It's just mind blowing to think about.
It really is.
What could be in there?
Yeah.
We're looking at some excerpts from a text
that is basically trying to debunk all the myths
(01:03):
surrounding these Vatican secrets.
Exactly, but we should probably start
by clarifying what we're even talking about
when we say Vatican Library as an archive.
Right, because it is easy to get them confused.
Totally.
If you're a researcher walking into this massive complex,
you might first come to the Vatican Apostolic Library,
which is essentially a giant research library.
(01:25):
Right, ancient texts, rare books.
Wow.
Illuminated manuscripts, like the beautiful ones.
We're talking like 75,000 codices.
Wow.
Which are handwritten books
from before they had printing presses.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And then over a million printed books on top of that.
A million books.
(01:45):
Yeah.
So where do the archives kind of come in then?
So the Vatican Apostolic archives
are kind of like a giant filing cabinet
for all of the church's administrative records.
Okay.
So things like papal bulls,
which are like official decrees from the pope
and the cyclicals.
Got it.
Financial records, even like correspondence
between popes and world leaders,
(02:07):
like hundreds of years old.
Right, and that's the thing that always kind of gets me
is that access to both the library and the archives is like.
It's pretty limited.
Yeah, not just anyone can go in.
No, you can't just stroll in and start browsing.
Yeah.
It's not totally closed off though.
Like qualified researchers can apply for access.
(02:27):
Right.
But there are like really strict rules
and the process can take a long time.
Yeah.
And I mean, obviously this limited access
kind of fuels all the speculation
about what they could be hiding.
Right.
So let's actually get into some of these so-called secrets.
Yeah.
Some of them are like way more plausible than others.
Right.
Like for instance, there's been so much talk
(02:47):
about the Vatican possibly holding records
related to like historical events.
Yeah.
Like the ones where the church's actions have been.
A little controversial.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like there's that.
Like for example, a lot of people
are interested in documents
that could like shed light on the Inquisition.
Totally.
Like specifically the Spanish Inquisition.
(03:08):
Yeah.
Which had a reputation for being very brutal.
Exactly, and we can't forget about like World War II either.
Right.
There are people who say that the Vatican has documents
detailing their interactions with,
you know, regimes like Nazi Germany.
Exactly.
There's even evidence that we have now
of Pope Pius XII's silence during the Holocaust.
Right.
(03:29):
Which has caused a lot of debate.
Yeah.
About his role.
Like some people say he was just trying to protect the church.
Yeah.
And then others say he could have done more.
To help.
To help the people being persecuted.
Right.
So imagine what other insights we could get from,
you know, their records from that period.
Exactly.
It's crazy.
So, okay, so we've got, you know,
potentially some sensitive historical records.
(03:51):
Then we've got those diplomatic records
that we mentioned earlier.
Oh yeah.
The Vatican as a sovereign state
has obviously been involved in like-
For a long time.
International diplomacy for centuries.
For centuries, yeah.
What could be in those records?
Oh, I know like in 2020 they released some documents
related to World War II.
And they showed that Pope Pius XII
(04:11):
was trying to like negotiate peace with Mussolini.
So think about like all the different types of-
Maneuvers.
Yeah, maneuvers and like decisions that shaped history
that could be-
Sitting in there.
Yeah, just like sitting in those archives.
It's crazy.
It really makes you wonder what else
they could possibly have.
And then there's all the more, you know,
speculative theories.
(04:32):
Oh yeah.
Like the Vatican having like secret knowledge
of the future or-
Valian.
Even like proof of valian life.
Right, those are a little more-
Out there.
Yeah, on the speculative side I'd say.
Like the idea that they have a crystal ball
or some kind of time viewing device
like in the movies is interesting.
But like, come on, there's no evidence to support that.
Yeah, and even though like the church
(04:53):
has historically like suppressed certain texts
that maybe challenged its doctrine,
a lot of those are actually like
widely known and studied now.
Yeah, exactly, like the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Right.
Everybody knows about that.
So it's not like they're locked away
never to be seen again.
Exactly, and even a lot of those suppressed texts
(05:13):
were eventually discovered
and they're available now for people to study.
Told you.
So like, while there could be some like lesser known ones
or fragments out there,
I don't think we're talking about some massive revelations.
Okay, so if the Vatican isn't hiding like
proof of aliens or like prophecies
about the end of the world.
Right.
(05:33):
Why all the secrecy then?
Yeah.
Like wouldn't it just be easier to open up the archives
and let everybody see?
Well you would think so.
Right.
But it's not that simple.
There are a lot of reasons for their kind of
limited transparency.
Okay.
And it's not all about hiding something, you know.
Right.
The major factor is just how old and fragile
a lot of these documents are.
(05:53):
Yeah, I mean you can't just like handle
a 1500 year old manuscript.
Oh no.
Like the Codex Vaticanus,
which is one of the oldest complete Bibles.
Yeah.
The same way you would like a paperback.
No, not at all.
A bookstore.
They need like specific environmental conditions
and careful handling and like special preservation techniques.
Right.
Even just like digitizing them is a massive project.
(06:16):
So preserving these fragile documents
is like a big part of it.
Huge.
But I imagine there are other reasons too.
Oh yeah.
Like what about privacy concerns?
Total, the Vatican has like a responsibility
to protect sensitive information.
Like think about personal records, you know.
Like confessions or details from like church trials
and stuff.
(06:36):
Releasing that could be really harmful.
It's sensitive.
And then there's the whole bureaucratic side of things too.
Huh, don't even get me started.
Right, I mean we're talking about
Millions.
Millions and millions of documents.
So many documents.
Like the Vatican is not exactly known for.
Moving quickly.
Yeah.
They have a reputation.
Right.
For taking their time.
So like to organize and catalog all of that.
(06:58):
It takes forever.
It's a monumental task.
It's huge.
Okay, so we've got preservation,
we've got privacy concerns,
we've got a whole lot of bureaucracy.
But let's be real.
Every institution wants to control its own narrative
to some degree.
Oh 100%.
Right.
The Vatican's no different.
I mean they're obviously very aware of their image
and how they're perceived.
(07:19):
Totally.
And releasing everything all at once.
Oh my gosh.
Could lead to.
Chaos.
Yeah, like misinterpretations.
And especially today.
Especially today.
With social media.
Oh yeah.
Things can get taken out of context so easily.
So easily.
Imagine like one document,
some letter from some like.
Obscure cardinal.
(07:40):
Yeah.
500 years ago.
Yeah.
Gets taken out of context.
And all of a sudden it's proof of.
Oh yeah.
Some wild conspiracy theory.
Exactly.
Like that's gotta be a concern for them.
Of course.
Yeah.
It's a total balancing act.
Okay.
Like they wanna protect their history,
but also make sure that the information
is presented accurately.
Responsibly.
Yeah.
Okay so it's not just about
(08:02):
hiding you know.
Yeah.
These dark secrets.
Right.
There are reasons why they might be cautious.
Yeah.
But couldn't they at least try
to be a little more transparent
about what they actually do have?
Right.
Well you're not the only one who thinks.
Okay.
There's a whole movement.
Oh shut up.
Of people who want the Vatican to be more transparent.
Okay.
And we're gonna talk about that
(08:23):
in the next part of our deep dive.
Okay.
But first we're gonna take a quick break.
All right.
Sounds good.
We're back.
And you know it's interesting
because we've been talking about all these reasons
why the Vatican might be.
You know.
Hesitant.
Yeah hesitant to open up its archives.
Yeah.
But it makes you wonder
(08:45):
if there are things that like we can do.
To encourage them to be more transparent.
Right it's not like a totally closed door.
Like there are definitely things that can be done.
Okay.
To encourage them to be a little more open.
So where do we even begin?
Well.
Like the Vatican's this.
Yeah.
Ancient powerful institution.
Yeah.
How do we as like individuals even make a difference?
(09:09):
Well I think one of the best ways
is actually through scholarship.
Oh interesting.
So like imagine you're a historian or a researcher
who like gets access to the archives.
Yeah.
All of your discoveries, your publications.
They all add to this like growing body of knowledge.
Uh huh.
That makes it harder for the Vatican
to justify keeping things hidden.
(09:31):
So the more research that's done.
Yeah.
The more pressure there is to be transparent.
Exactly.
Okay I like that.
Yeah.
But realistically how many researchers
are actually getting that kind of access?
Well it's true.
Access is limited.
Right.
Which is why it's really important
to support the scholars who are doing this work.
Okay.
Like there are organizations that are dedicated
to funding research into the Vatican archives
(09:54):
and even small donations can make a big difference.
That's good to know.
I'll have to look into that.
Yeah.
But you know in this digital age
it seems like technology could play a big part here.
Oh absolutely.
Right.
Like think about all the libraries
that have digitized their collections.
Right.
And they can access books and documents
from like anywhere in the world.
(10:14):
Exactly.
Digitization is.
It's huge.
It's like a game changer.
Yeah.
And it's not unheard of for institutions
like the Vatican.
Okay.
To do like huge digitization projects.
Okay.
Like the British Library for example
has digitized millions of pages.
Wow.
From their collection and it's all available online.
(10:34):
So you're saying like you could potentially
house the Vatican archives like from your couch.
It would be incredible.
That's amazing.
Obviously it would be a huge undertaking for them
just given the size and the fragility of their collection.
Right.
But it's not impossible.
Okay.
With funding and international collaboration.
Yeah.
It could happen.
So we've got the power of scholarship.
We've got the potential of technology.
(10:57):
Are there other kind of levers that we can pull.
Yeah.
To encourage transparency.
Well public pressure can be pretty effective.
Okay.
Public opinion is not immune to public opinion.
Especially when it's coming from within the church itself.
So you're saying Catholics themselves
are like pushing for more transparency.
Totally.
Interesting.
(11:17):
Yeah like there are groups and individuals
within the church who want more openness.
Yeah.
Especially when it comes to things like
financial accountability.
Okay.
Or like how abuse cases are handled.
Okay so there's like internal pressure.
Yeah.
What about from like the outside world.
Well journalists and diplomats play a key role.
(11:39):
Okay.
In kind of keeping this issue.
In the spotlight.
Yeah in the public eye.
Yeah.
By you know asking questions
and just like engaging in dialogue.
Right.
They can encourage the Vatican to rethink
how they approach transparency.
It's like that saying sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Exactly.
The more open institutions are the less likely they are
to like engage in shady practices.
(12:01):
Exactly.
Transparency builds trust.
Right.
And that's something that the Vatican.
Could use.
Could really benefit from especially after
all the controversy we've been through recently.
You know when we were talking earlier
about the Vatican's diplomatic records.
It made me think about how those documents
could almost be considered part of our
(12:22):
shared global heritage.
That's a really interesting point.
Right.
Because there are international organizations
like UNESCO that work to protect and preserve
you know cultural heritage.
Exactly.
So maybe if we frame the Vatican's archives
in that context.
Yeah.
Like as this treasure trove of historical knowledge
(12:43):
that belongs to all of humanity.
Yeah.
It could encourage broader access.
I like that.
It's kind of like saying these aren't just
the Vatican's secrets.
Yeah.
They're part of our collective history.
Exactly.
It's a way of appealing to like.
A higher purpose.
Yeah higher purpose and a sense of shared responsibility
for like taking care of our past.
But let's like shift gears for a second.
Okay.
All this talk about you know ancient manuscripts
(13:06):
and diplomatic records is super interesting.
But we can't ignore the fact that the Vatican's
also dealing with some very real challenges
in the present day.
Yeah you're right.
We can't just focus on the past.
Right.
Transparency is super important for current issues too.
Yeah.
Like the clergy abuse scandals.
It's a heavy topic.
Yeah.
But important.
(13:26):
But very important.
Like these scandals are really shaking people's faith.
Yeah it's true.
In the church.
It's true.
Is there been any progress when it comes to like
transparency and accountability on that front.
There has been some progress.
Like Pope Francis has made some reforms.
Right.
Like now it's mandatory for clergy
to report abuse allegations.
Exactly.
But a lot of people would say it's not enough.
(13:48):
So the pressure for transparency isn't just about
accessing historical documents.
Yeah.
It's about making sure that the church is like
acting responsibly.
In the present.
Ethically in the present.
Yeah.
And holding them accountable for past wrongs.
Mm hmm.
And preventing future harm.
Right.
Okay so we've got scholarship technology,
(14:10):
public pressure,
this idea of framing the Vatican archives
as like a shared global heritage.
Yeah.
It sounds like there are a lot of different ways
to approach this.
Yeah and it's important to remember that
change doesn't happen overnight.
Right.
The Vatican is like a super complex institution
with a really long history of tradition and secrecy.
Yep.
(14:30):
But by working together and using
all these different approaches,
we can try to like nudge them in the right direction.
It's a marathon not a sprint.
Exactly.
And while we're on this journey towards
like more transparency,
it's important to keep things in perspective.
What do you mean?
Well it's easy to get caught up in all the speculation
about like,
yeah, hidden knowledge and these earth shattering secrets.
(14:54):
I know what you mean.
Sometimes it feels like we're talking about
a Dan Brown novel.
Right.
And not like a real place.
Exactly.
But the reality is the Vatican is ultimately
just a human institution.
Yeah.
It's made up of people.
And people make mistakes.
Yeah.
They have biases,
they're motivated by all sorts of things.
So maybe the most important thing is to like
approach this with a little bit of realism.
(15:16):
Yeah.
I mean it's fun to think about
uncovering some crazy secret that changes everything.
Right.
But the real treasures,
I think they're often found in the details.
Like the everyday documents that show us like
how complex human history is.
Right.
And how this fascinating institution actually works.
I love that.
Yeah.
So we've explored the plausible and the speculative.
(15:40):
The challenges and the potential solutions.
What's the big takeaway?
Yeah.
What do we want listeners to like walk away with?
I think the biggest takeaway is that
the Vatican, like any institution is a work in progress.
Okay.
It's evolving, it's dealing with its past.
It's trying to navigate the complexities of the present.
It's not this like monolithic entity shrouded in secrecy.
(16:03):
No, it's a place where real people are making decisions.
Right.
They're wrestling with these ethical dilemmas.
Yeah.
They're trying to balance tradition
with the demands of a changing world.
And that's where we can actually make a difference.
That's right.
As individuals.
Not by like buying into the conspiracy theories.
Right.
But by engaging with the information that is available.
(16:25):
Exactly.
Supporting the scholars who are doing the research.
Yes.
And advocating for more transparency
in a thoughtful and respectful way.
Exactly.
It's about recognizing that this isn't just
like an abstract debate about secrets.
Yeah.
It's about real documents.
Right.
Real stories.
Yeah.
Real people whose lives and legacies
are like tied to the history of the Vatican.
(16:47):
And by like shedding light on those stories.
Yeah.
Understanding the context, the motivations.
The human part of it.
Yeah.
The human fallibility that shaped those events.
We gain a much richer and more nuanced understanding
of the past.
That's the real treasure.
Yeah.
Not some document that like rewrites history.
(17:08):
Right.
But that process of uncovering the truth little by little.
Right.
Through research, through dialogue,
through being willing to challenge our assumptions.
It's a journey that requires patience and critical thinking
and a healthy dose of skepticism.
(17:29):
Absolutely.
But it's a journey worth taking.
Yeah.
Because ultimately, it's not just about what
we learn about the Vatican.
Right.
It's about what we learn about ourselves
and our place in this complex, fascinating world.
Totally.
So the next time you hear about some Vatican secret,
don't just take it at face value.
Ask questions.
Exactly.
Do your own research.
Yeah.
Engage with the evidence.
(17:50):
And who knows, maybe you'll uncover
some piece of the puzzle that helps us all understand
this remarkable institution.
A little bit better.
Yeah.
A little bit better.
Yeah.
That's a great note to end on.
Yeah.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
On this deem dive into the Vatican libraries and archives.
It's been a pleasure.
Until next time, stay curious.
We're back for the final part of our deep dive
(18:13):
into the Vatican libraries and archives.
And it's been.
It's been fascinating.
Yeah, it has, right?
We've gone from ancient manuscripts
to modern day controversy, from speculation
about hidden knowledge, to real issues of preservation.
Yeah.
And transparency.
It's a topic that just captures people's imagination.
(18:35):
Yeah.
And we've seen that there are actually
really legitimate reasons for some of the secrecy.
Definitely.
Right.
We've talked about the need to protect these, you know,
fragile documents, respect privacy concerns.
Right.
Manage just the massive scale.
The sheer volume of it.
Yeah.
Of it all.
It's incredible.
(18:55):
But we've also looked at the arguments for greater
transparency.
This idea that the archives hold not just the church's history,
but also a piece of like.
Our shared.
Yeah.
Human heritage.
Global heritage.
And that by opening up access, even if it's like gradually.
Yeah.
(19:16):
The Vatican could contribute so much to like.
Our understanding of so many things.
Right.
History, religion, art.
Politics.
Culture.
It goes on and on.
Yeah.
So where do we go from here?
Right.
Like what's a takeaway?
Yeah.
For our listeners who are obviously
just as fascinated with this.
As we are.
As we are.
I think the biggest takeaway is that the Vatican
(19:36):
is like any institution.
OK.
A work in progress.
Yeah.
It's evolving.
It's grappling with its past.
It's trying to figure out how to exist in the present.
Right.
It's not like.
It's not static.
Yeah.
This monolithic entity shrouded in like.
Eternal secrecy.
Eternal secrecy.
No.
It's a place with real people.
(19:57):
Exactly.
Making decisions.
Wrestling with ethical questions.
Right.
And trying to like balance tradition with.
The demands of a changing world.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's where we can actually make a difference.
Right.
As individuals.
Not by buying into sensationalized stories.
About.
Experiences.
Yeah.
(20:17):
But by actually engaging with the information
that we do have.
Right.
And supporting the scholars who are doing the research.
A hard work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And advocating for more transparency in a way that's.
Thoughtful.
Yeah.
Thoughtful and respectful.
It's about recognizing that this isn't just
like a philosophical debate about secrets.
This is about real documents.
(20:38):
Exactly.
Real stories.
Right.
Real people.
Yeah.
Whose lives and legacies are intertwined
with the history of this place.
And by shedding light on those stories.
Yeah.
Understanding the context.
The motivations.
The motivations.
The human fallibility.
Yeah, the human element.
Yeah.
That shaped all of these events.
(21:00):
Yeah.
We get a much more like.
And non.
Yeah, richer and nuanced understanding.
So yeah.
Of the past.
And that's the real treasure.
Right.
It's not some document that rewrites history.
Right.
But that process of like.
Discovery.
Yeah.
Uncovering the truth.
Like little by little.
Yeah.
Through research.
There's dialogue.
Through being open to changing our minds.
(21:20):
Yeah.
And challenging like what we think we know.
Totally.
It's a journey.
It is.
That requires patience.
Critical thinking.
Yeah.
Skepticism.
Absolutely.
Healthy skepticism.
It's important.
But it's worth it.
It's so worth it.
Right.
Because in the end.
It's not just about what we learn about the Vatican.
(21:42):
Right.
It's about what we learn about ourselves.
Totally.
And like where we fit in this crazy fascinating world.
Yeah.
So next time you hear about some like Vatican secret.
Don't just take it.
At face value.
Yeah.
Dig a little deeper.
Ask questions.
Do your own research.
Do the work.
Yeah.
Engage with the evidence.
Yeah.
(22:03):
And who knows maybe you'll uncover some.
Piece of the puzzle.
That helps us understand this.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Remarkable institution.
A little bit better.
A little bit better.
Yeah.
I love that.
Me too.
Well hey thanks for joining me on this deep dive.
Thanks for having me.
Into the Vatican Libraries and Archives.
Until next time.
Stay curious.
Welcome back to the Deep Dive.
(00:01):
Today, we're going behind the scenes
at one of the most, well, I think fascinating
and mysterious places in the world.
I agree.
The Vatican.
Yeah, yeah.
The place that's always shown in movies and books as like.
Shrouded in secrecy.
Yeah, a fortress of secrets.
Exactly.
So we are gonna try to figure out.
Unpack that a little.
(00:22):
Yeah, what's really real
and what's maybe a little bit more fictional.
Right.
And we're doing that today
using the Vatican Library as an archives.
Which is so interesting
because what people don't often realize
is that the Vatican isn't just this religious center,
it's like this gold mine of documents
and historical records.
I know.
Some of them are over 1,500 years old.
(00:43):
It's insane when you think about it,
like centuries of correspondence between popes
and different leaders and stuff.
Records of diplomacy between.
Oh, we know.
Empires and nations.
It's just mind blowing to think about.
It really is.
What could be in there?
Yeah.
We're looking at some excerpts from a text
that is basically trying to debunk all the myths
(01:03):
surrounding these Vatican secrets.
Exactly, but we should probably start
by clarifying what we're even talking about
when we say Vatican Library as an archive.
Right, because it is easy to get them confused.
Totally.
If you're a researcher walking into this massive complex,
you might first come to the Vatican Apostolic Library,
which is essentially a giant research library.
(01:25):
Right, ancient texts, rare books.
Wow.
Illuminated manuscripts, like the beautiful ones.
We're talking like 75,000 codices.
Wow.
Which are handwritten books
from before they had printing presses.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And then over a million printed books on top of that.
A million books.
(01:45):
Yeah.
So where do the archives kind of come in then?
So the Vatican Apostolic archives
are kind of like a giant filing cabinet
for all of the church's administrative records.
Okay.
So things like papal bulls,
which are like official decrees from the pope
and the cyclicals.
Got it.
Financial records, even like correspondence
between popes and world leaders,
(02:07):
like hundreds of years old.
Right, and that's the thing that always kind of gets me
is that access to both the library and the archives is like.
It's pretty limited.
Yeah, not just anyone can go in.
No, you can't just stroll in and start browsing.
Yeah.
It's not totally closed off though.
Like qualified researchers can apply for access.
(02:27):
Right.
But there are like really strict rules
and the process can take a long time.
Yeah.
And I mean, obviously this limited access
kind of fuels all the speculation
about what they could be hiding.
Right.
So let's actually get into some of these so-called secrets.
Yeah.
Some of them are like way more plausible than others.
Right.
Like for instance, there's been so much talk
(02:47):
about the Vatican possibly holding records
related to like historical events.
Yeah.
Like the ones where the church's actions have been.
A little controversial.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like there's that.
Like for example, a lot of people
are interested in documents
that could like shed light on the Inquisition.
Totally.
Like specifically the Spanish Inquisition.
(03:08):
Yeah.
Which had a reputation for being very brutal.
Exactly, and we can't forget about like World War II either.
Right.
There are people who say that the Vatican has documents
detailing their interactions with,
you know, regimes like Nazi Germany.
Exactly.
There's even evidence that we have now
of Pope Pius XII's silence during the Holocaust.
Right.
(03:29):
Which has caused a lot of debate.
Yeah.
About his role.
Like some people say he was just trying to protect the church.
Yeah.
And then others say he could have done more.
To help.
To help the people being persecuted.
Right.
So imagine what other insights we could get from,
you know, their records from that period.
Exactly.
It's crazy.
So, okay, so we've got, you know,
potentially some sensitive historical records.
(03:51):
Then we've got those diplomatic records
that we mentioned earlier.
Oh yeah.
The Vatican as a sovereign state
has obviously been involved in like-
For a long time.
International diplomacy for centuries.
For centuries, yeah.
What could be in those records?
Oh, I know like in 2020 they released some documents
related to World War II.
And they showed that Pope Pius XII
(04:11):
was trying to like negotiate peace with Mussolini.
So think about like all the different types of-
Maneuvers.
Yeah, maneuvers and like decisions that shaped history
that could be-
Sitting in there.
Yeah, just like sitting in those archives.
It's crazy.
It really makes you wonder what else
they could possibly have.
And then there's all the more, you know,
speculative theories.
(04:32):
Oh yeah.
Like the Vatican having like secret knowledge
of the future or-
Valian.
Even like proof of valian life.
Right, those are a little more-
Out there.
Yeah, on the speculative side I'd say.
Like the idea that they have a crystal ball
or some kind of time viewing device
like in the movies is interesting.
But like, come on, there's no evidence to support that.
Yeah, and even though like the church
(04:53):
has historically like suppressed certain texts
that maybe challenged its doctrine,
a lot of those are actually like
widely known and studied now.
Yeah, exactly, like the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Right.
Everybody knows about that.
So it's not like they're locked away
never to be seen again.
Exactly, and even a lot of those suppressed texts
(05:13):
were eventually discovered
and they're available now for people to study.
Told you.
So like, while there could be some like lesser known ones
or fragments out there,
I don't think we're talking about some massive revelations.
Okay, so if the Vatican isn't hiding like
proof of aliens or like prophecies
about the end of the world.
Right.
(05:33):
Why all the secrecy then?
Yeah.
Like wouldn't it just be easier to open up the archives
and let everybody see?
Well you would think so.
Right.
But it's not that simple.
There are a lot of reasons for their kind of
limited transparency.
Okay.
And it's not all about hiding something, you know.
Right.
The major factor is just how old and fragile
a lot of these documents are.
(05:53):
Yeah, I mean you can't just like handle
a 1500 year old manuscript.
Oh no.
Like the Codex Vaticanus,
which is one of the oldest complete Bibles.
Yeah.
The same way you would like a paperback.
No, not at all.
A bookstore.
They need like specific environmental conditions
and careful handling and like special preservation techniques.
Right.
Even just like digitizing them is a massive project.
(06:16):
So preserving these fragile documents
is like a big part of it.
Huge.
But I imagine there are other reasons too.
Oh yeah.
Like what about privacy concerns?
Total, the Vatican has like a responsibility
to protect sensitive information.
Like think about personal records, you know.
Like confessions or details from like church trials
and stuff.
(06:36):
Releasing that could be really harmful.
It's sensitive.
And then there's the whole bureaucratic side of things too.
Huh, don't even get me started.
Right, I mean we're talking about
Millions.
Millions and millions of documents.
So many documents.
Like the Vatican is not exactly known for.
Moving quickly.
Yeah.
They have a reputation.
Right.
For taking their time.
So like to organize and catalog all of that.
(06:58):
It takes forever.
It's a monumental task.
It's huge.
Okay, so we've got preservation,
we've got privacy concerns,
we've got a whole lot of bureaucracy.
But let's be real.
Every institution wants to control its own narrative
to some degree.
Oh 100%.
Right.
The Vatican's no different.
I mean they're obviously very aware of their image
and how they're perceived.
(07:19):
Totally.
And releasing everything all at once.
Oh my gosh.
Could lead to.
Chaos.
Yeah, like misinterpretations.
And especially today.
Especially today.
With social media.
Oh yeah.
Things can get taken out of context so easily.
So easily.
Imagine like one document,
some letter from some like.
Obscure cardinal.
(07:40):
Yeah.
500 years ago.
Yeah.
Gets taken out of context.
And all of a sudden it's proof of.
Oh yeah.
Some wild conspiracy theory.
Exactly.
Like that's gotta be a concern for them.
Of course.
Yeah.
It's a total balancing act.
Okay.
Like they wanna protect their history,
but also make sure that the information
is presented accurately.
Responsibly.
Yeah.
Okay so it's not just about
(08:02):
hiding you know.
Yeah.
These dark secrets.
Right.
There are reasons why they might be cautious.
Yeah.
But couldn't they at least try
to be a little more transparent
about what they actually do have?
Right.
Well you're not the only one who thinks.
Okay.
There's a whole movement.
Oh shut up.
Of people who want the Vatican to be more transparent.
Okay.
And we're gonna talk about that
(08:23):
in the next part of our deep dive.
Okay.
But first we're gonna take a quick break.
All right.
Sounds good.
We're back.
And you know it's interesting
because we've been talking about all these reasons
why the Vatican might be.
You know.
Hesitant.
Yeah hesitant to open up its archives.
Yeah.
But it makes you wonder
(08:45):
if there are things that like we can do.
To encourage them to be more transparent.
Right it's not like a totally closed door.
Like there are definitely things that can be done.
Okay.
To encourage them to be a little more open.
So where do we even begin?
Well.
Like the Vatican's this.
Yeah.
Ancient powerful institution.
Yeah.
How do we as like individuals even make a difference?
(09:09):
Well I think one of the best ways
is actually through scholarship.
Oh interesting.
So like imagine you're a historian or a researcher
who like gets access to the archives.
Yeah.
All of your discoveries, your publications.
They all add to this like growing body of knowledge.
Uh huh.
That makes it harder for the Vatican
to justify keeping things hidden.
(09:31):
So the more research that's done.
Yeah.
The more pressure there is to be transparent.
Exactly.
Okay I like that.
Yeah.
But realistically how many researchers
are actually getting that kind of access?
Well it's true.
Access is limited.
Right.
Which is why it's really important
to support the scholars who are doing this work.
Okay.
Like there are organizations that are dedicated
to funding research into the Vatican archives
(09:54):
and even small donations can make a big difference.
That's good to know.
I'll have to look into that.
Yeah.
But you know in this digital age
it seems like technology could play a big part here.
Oh absolutely.
Right.
Like think about all the libraries
that have digitized their collections.
Right.
And they can access books and documents
from like anywhere in the world.
(10:14):
Exactly.
Digitization is.
It's huge.
It's like a game changer.
Yeah.
And it's not unheard of for institutions
like the Vatican.
Okay.
To do like huge digitization projects.
Okay.
Like the British Library for example
has digitized millions of pages.
Wow.
From their collection and it's all available online.
(10:34):
So you're saying like you could potentially
house the Vatican archives like from your couch.
It would be incredible.
That's amazing.
Obviously it would be a huge undertaking for them
just given the size and the fragility of their collection.
Right.
But it's not impossible.
Okay.
With funding and international collaboration.
Yeah.
It could happen.
So we've got the power of scholarship.
We've got the potential of technology.
(10:57):
Are there other kind of levers that we can pull.
Yeah.
To encourage transparency.
Well public pressure can be pretty effective.
Okay.
Public opinion is not immune to public opinion.
Especially when it's coming from within the church itself.
So you're saying Catholics themselves
are like pushing for more transparency.
Totally.
Interesting.
(11:17):
Yeah like there are groups and individuals
within the church who want more openness.
Yeah.
Especially when it comes to things like
financial accountability.
Okay.
Or like how abuse cases are handled.
Okay so there's like internal pressure.
Yeah.
What about from like the outside world.
Well journalists and diplomats play a key role.
(11:39):
Okay.
In kind of keeping this issue.
In the spotlight.
Yeah in the public eye.
Yeah.
By you know asking questions
and just like engaging in dialogue.
Right.
They can encourage the Vatican to rethink
how they approach transparency.
It's like that saying sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Exactly.
The more open institutions are the less likely they are
to like engage in shady practices.
(12:01):
Exactly.
Transparency builds trust.
Right.
And that's something that the Vatican.
Could use.
Could really benefit from especially after
all the controversy we've been through recently.
You know when we were talking earlier
about the Vatican's diplomatic records.
It made me think about how those documents
could almost be considered part of our
(12:22):
shared global heritage.
That's a really interesting point.
Right.
Because there are international organizations
like UNESCO that work to protect and preserve
you know cultural heritage.
Exactly.
So maybe if we frame the Vatican's archives
in that context.
Yeah.
Like as this treasure trove of historical knowledge
(12:43):
that belongs to all of humanity.
Yeah.
It could encourage broader access.
I like that.
It's kind of like saying these aren't just
the Vatican's secrets.
Yeah.
They're part of our collective history.
Exactly.
It's a way of appealing to like.
A higher purpose.
Yeah higher purpose and a sense of shared responsibility
for like taking care of our past.
But let's like shift gears for a second.
Okay.
All this talk about you know ancient manuscripts
(13:06):
and diplomatic records is super interesting.
But we can't ignore the fact that the Vatican's
also dealing with some very real challenges
in the present day.
Yeah you're right.
We can't just focus on the past.
Right.
Transparency is super important for current issues too.
Yeah.
Like the clergy abuse scandals.
It's a heavy topic.
Yeah.
But important.
(13:26):
But very important.
Like these scandals are really shaking people's faith.
Yeah it's true.
In the church.
It's true.
Is there been any progress when it comes to like
transparency and accountability on that front.
There has been some progress.
Like Pope Francis has made some reforms.
Right.
Like now it's mandatory for clergy
to report abuse allegations.
Exactly.
But a lot of people would say it's not enough.
(13:48):
So the pressure for transparency isn't just about
accessing historical documents.
Yeah.
It's about making sure that the church is like
acting responsibly.
In the present.
Ethically in the present.
Yeah.
And holding them accountable for past wrongs.
Mm hmm.
And preventing future harm.
Right.
Okay so we've got scholarship technology,
(14:10):
public pressure,
this idea of framing the Vatican archives
as like a shared global heritage.
Yeah.
It sounds like there are a lot of different ways
to approach this.
Yeah and it's important to remember that
change doesn't happen overnight.
Right.
The Vatican is like a super complex institution
with a really long history of tradition and secrecy.
Yep.
(14:30):
But by working together and using
all these different approaches,
we can try to like nudge them in the right direction.
It's a marathon not a sprint.
Exactly.
And while we're on this journey towards
like more transparency,
it's important to keep things in perspective.
What do you mean?
Well it's easy to get caught up in all the speculation
about like,
yeah, hidden knowledge and these earth shattering secrets.
(14:54):
I know what you mean.
Sometimes it feels like we're talking about
a Dan Brown novel.
Right.
And not like a real place.
Exactly.
But the reality is the Vatican is ultimately
just a human institution.
Yeah.
It's made up of people.
And people make mistakes.
Yeah.
They have biases,
they're motivated by all sorts of things.
So maybe the most important thing is to like
approach this with a little bit of realism.
(15:16):
Yeah.
I mean it's fun to think about
uncovering some crazy secret that changes everything.
Right.
But the real treasures,
I think they're often found in the details.
Like the everyday documents that show us like
how complex human history is.
Right.
And how this fascinating institution actually works.
I love that.
Yeah.
So we've explored the plausible and the speculative.
(15:40):
The challenges and the potential solutions.
What's the big takeaway?
Yeah.
What do we want listeners to like walk away with?
I think the biggest takeaway is that
the Vatican, like any institution is a work in progress.
Okay.
It's evolving, it's dealing with its past.
It's trying to navigate the complexities of the present.
It's not this like monolithic entity shrouded in secrecy.
(16:03):
No, it's a place where real people are making decisions.
Right.
They're wrestling with these ethical dilemmas.
Yeah.
They're trying to balance tradition
with the demands of a changing world.
And that's where we can actually make a difference.
That's right.
As individuals.
Not by like buying into the conspiracy theories.
Right.
But by engaging with the information that is available.
(16:25):
Exactly.
Supporting the scholars who are doing the research.
Yes.
And advocating for more transparency
in a thoughtful and respectful way.
Exactly.
It's about recognizing that this isn't just
like an abstract debate about secrets.
Yeah.
It's about real documents.
Right.
Real stories.
Yeah.
Real people whose lives and legacies
are like tied to the history of the Vatican.
(16:47):
And by like shedding light on those stories.
Yeah.
Understanding the context, the motivations.
The human part of it.
Yeah.
The human fallibility that shaped those events.
We gain a much richer and more nuanced understanding
of the past.
That's the real treasure.
Yeah.
Not some document that like rewrites history.
(17:08):
Right.
But that process of uncovering the truth little by little.
Right.
Through research, through dialogue,
through being willing to challenge our assumptions.
It's a journey that requires patience and critical thinking
and a healthy dose of skepticism.
(17:29):
Absolutely.
But it's a journey worth taking.
Yeah.
Because ultimately, it's not just about what
we learn about the Vatican.
Right.
It's about what we learn about ourselves
and our place in this complex, fascinating world.
Totally.
So the next time you hear about some Vatican secret,
don't just take it at face value.
Ask questions.
Exactly.
Do your own research.
Yeah.
Engage with the evidence.
(17:50):
And who knows, maybe you'll uncover
some piece of the puzzle that helps us all understand
this remarkable institution.
A little bit better.
Yeah.
A little bit better.
Yeah.
That's a great note to end on.
Yeah.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
On this deem dive into the Vatican libraries and archives.
It's been a pleasure.
Until next time, stay curious.
We're back for the final part of our deep dive
(18:13):
into the Vatican libraries and archives.
And it's been.
It's been fascinating.
Yeah, it has, right?
We've gone from ancient manuscripts
to modern day controversy, from speculation
about hidden knowledge, to real issues of preservation.
Yeah.
And transparency.
It's a topic that just captures people's imagination.
(18:35):
Yeah.
And we've seen that there are actually
really legitimate reasons for some of the secrecy.
Definitely.
Right.
We've talked about the need to protect these, you know,
fragile documents, respect privacy concerns.
Right.
Manage just the massive scale.
The sheer volume of it.
Yeah.
Of it all.
It's incredible.
(18:55):
But we've also looked at the arguments for greater
transparency.
This idea that the archives hold not just the church's history,
but also a piece of like.
Our shared.
Yeah.
Human heritage.
Global heritage.
And that by opening up access, even if it's like gradually.
Yeah.
(19:16):
The Vatican could contribute so much to like.
Our understanding of so many things.
Right.
History, religion, art.
Politics.
Culture.
It goes on and on.
Yeah.
So where do we go from here?
Right.
Like what's a takeaway?
Yeah.
For our listeners who are obviously
just as fascinated with this.
As we are.
As we are.
I think the biggest takeaway is that the Vatican
(19:36):
is like any institution.
OK.
A work in progress.
Yeah.
It's evolving.
It's grappling with its past.
It's trying to figure out how to exist in the present.
Right.
It's not like.
It's not static.
Yeah.
This monolithic entity shrouded in like.
Eternal secrecy.
Eternal secrecy.
No.
It's a place with real people.
(19:57):
Exactly.
Making decisions.
Wrestling with ethical questions.
Right.
And trying to like balance tradition with.
The demands of a changing world.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's where we can actually make a difference.
Right.
As individuals.
Not by buying into sensationalized stories.
About.
Experiences.
Yeah.
(20:17):
But by actually engaging with the information
that we do have.
Right.
And supporting the scholars who are doing the research.
A hard work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And advocating for more transparency in a way that's.
Thoughtful.
Yeah.
Thoughtful and respectful.
It's about recognizing that this isn't just
like a philosophical debate about secrets.
This is about real documents.
(20:38):
Exactly.
Real stories.
Right.
Real people.
Yeah.
Whose lives and legacies are intertwined
with the history of this place.
And by shedding light on those stories.
Yeah.
Understanding the context.
The motivations.
The motivations.
The human fallibility.
Yeah, the human element.
Yeah.
That shaped all of these events.
(21:00):
Yeah.
We get a much more like.
And non.
Yeah, richer and nuanced understanding.
So yeah.
Of the past.
And that's the real treasure.
Right.
It's not some document that rewrites history.
Right.
But that process of like.
Discovery.
Yeah.
Uncovering the truth.
Like little by little.
Yeah.
Through research.
There's dialogue.
Through being open to changing our minds.
(21:20):
Yeah.
And challenging like what we think we know.
Totally.
It's a journey.
It is.
That requires patience.
Critical thinking.
Yeah.
Skepticism.
Absolutely.
Healthy skepticism.
It's important.
But it's worth it.
It's so worth it.
Right.
Because in the end.
It's not just about what we learn about the Vatican.
(21:42):
Right.
It's about what we learn about ourselves.
Totally.
And like where we fit in this crazy fascinating world.
Yeah.
So next time you hear about some like Vatican secret.
Don't just take it.
At face value.
Yeah.
Dig a little deeper.
Ask questions.
Do your own research.
Do the work.
Yeah.
Engage with the evidence.
Yeah.
(22:03):
And who knows maybe you'll uncover some.
Piece of the puzzle.
That helps us understand this.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Remarkable institution.
A little bit better.
A little bit better.
Yeah.
I love that.
Me too.
Well hey thanks for joining me on this deep dive.
Thanks for having me.
Into the Vatican Libraries and Archives.
Until next time.
Stay curious.
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