August 27, 2025 • 43 mins
For immigration attorney Cari Pastor, the law is more than a profession—it’s a calling. With 35 years of experience and a personal connection—her father fled Cuba during the 1959 revolution and sought asylum in the U.S.—she brings rare clarity to how the asylum process really works.
In our conversation, Pastor dismantles some of the loudest myths. Seeking asylum is not illegal; it is a protected legal process whether at a port of entry or after crossing. Asylum seekers aren’t angling for handouts; they are waiting—often desperately—for work authorization, asking again and again, “When can I start working?” And far from the caricatures in headlines, these are people fleeing persecution who want nothing more than safety and the chance to rebuild their lives.
She also draws a sharp contrast between refugees and asylum seekers. Refugees arrive with legal status and resettlement support. Asylum seekers, by contrast, face a labyrinth of hearings and paperwork with virtually no safety net—making organizations like The Lighthouse critical lifelines during the long wait before work permits arrive.
Pastor’s courtroom stories capture both heartbreak and hope: a Middle Eastern student granted asylum after raising a resistance flag, a domestic violence survivor denied despite overwhelming evidence. Through it all, she grounds her work in faith: “I draw on that all the time. I am a lawyer thanks to God.”
As political rhetoric grows harsher, Pastor offers a roadmap for those who want to help: listen with empathy, show up at peaceful demonstrations, and hold officials accountable. “Don’t lose hope,” she insists. For those willing to walk alongside their vulnerable neighbors, the light at the end of the tunnel is still in sight.
Please consider supporting The Lighthouse, a haven to those navigating our broken immigration system. We strive to ensure that those seeking safety never have to navigate their darkest moments alone.
For more information, please visit lighthousenj.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jill Singleton (00:01):
Welcome to the Crossing Voices from the
Lighthouse.
Today we sit down with attorneyCari Pastor, an immigration
lawyer with more than 35 yearsof experience who has walked
alongside the Lighthouse throughcountless challenges.
For Cari, the law is more thana career.
It's a vocation, shaped by herown family's immigrant story and
(00:21):
sustained by deep faith.
Cari opens up about therealities of the asylum process,
cutting through the myths andmisinformation that cloud public
understanding, and she nameswhat's truly at stake for the
families and children who comehere seeking safety.
Cari also speaks with candorabout the brokenness of our
immigration system, offersstories of both heartbreak and
(00:43):
hope from the courtroom, andreflects on the faith that gives
her strength to continue.
Cari's words are both soberingand full of hope.
Here's our conversation.
Well, hello, Cari Pastor.
It's wonderful to have you heretoday on our podcast.
I've been waiting for thisopportunity to have a chance to
(01:04):
chat with you, so why don't youstart by telling our listeners a
little bit about you and aboutyour work?
Cari Pastor (01:11):
Okay, well, good morning and it's nice to be here
.
Thank you for inviting me.
So a little bit about me.
I'm an immigration lawyer.
I've been an immigration lawyernow for over 35 years.
It is the only law that Ipractice because, of course,
it's full-time.
It's very complicated.
My parents were both from Cubaand my mom came on a green card
(01:36):
through work sponsorship and myfather actually fled and applied
for asylum.
He was detained when he gothere and after he won his asylum
case he was released, and thatwas during the revolution in
Cuba in 1959.
So I have always kind of beendealing with immigration and, of
course, interested in it.
So that's kind of how I gotinto the field.
Jill Singleton (01:58):
Sounds like it's something that's really close
to your heart and something thatyou do really with passion, and
that you're really driven to do, much more so than a job, just
a regular job.
Cari Pastor (02:10):
It is, it is.
And interestingly enough, atthis age I've been asked am I
thinking about retirement?
And I always respond by sayingno, I just plan to drop dead in
court, in immigration court,someday.
Jill Singleton (02:22):
Well, I hope that doesn't happen, but it's
what the future will bring.
Yeah, so do you specialize inany particular kind of
immigration law?
Cari Pastor (02:33):
So my firm, which the firm has been around for 20
years.
So I started out at a nonprofitwith the Catholic Church their
legal immigration program inDetroit, and then I went to a
firm a private firm for a fewyears and then I started my own.
So actually it's been 25 years.
Time does fly and the firm doeseverything.
(02:54):
I have associates that dobusiness immigration, they do
family immigration, but Ispecialize in litigation.
So I do all the immigrationcourt work.
I do appeals, I do a lot offederal district court work
which during the first Trumpadministration and now that
there's an increase in that andI do federal appellate work.
(03:16):
I actually just got back lastweek from a trial in the US
District Court regardingcitizenship.
So it's yeah, it's court.
That's pretty much what I do,what I specialize in.
Jill Singleton (03:29):
I see.
So I think there's obviouslythere's a lot of talk right now
in the public and in the mediaabout immigration and about the
immigration challenges that weface in this country, and I
think that there are some thingsthat are really misunderstood.
And I guess I'd like to startby asking you because the
Lighthouse, as you know, wefocus on asylum seekers, so I
(03:54):
think that there's a lot ofmisunderstanding about what that
process looks like and whetherpeople who are coming here as
asylum seekers are quote unquotelegal here as asylum seekers
are quote unquote legal.
I was wondering if you couldsort of address the asylum
seeking process in the UnitedStates and help people
understand how does that work,what's the idea behind it and
(04:15):
how does it actually work inpractice.
Cari Pastor (04:18):
And that is a great question because in fact that's
the area of immigration that'sbeen most under attack recently,
right, because there's allsorts of misinformation about it
.
So the history of it comes frominternational law and it comes
from a time when Hitler was inpower and there was Jewish
(04:40):
people that were trying to cometo the United States and they
were denied.
And once they're back and wekind of pretty much know how
awful that was.
So after that the US decidedthat we need to welcome people
that are seeking asylum that aregoing to be persecuted and
tortured, and that waseventually codified in the
Immigration and Nationality Actand a lot of it kind of tracks
(05:03):
what the UN Committee on Refugeeand the treaties have said.
So that's where the law comesfrom and I guess the most
important at least I think themost important part of the law
is something callednon-reformment, which is, if a
person is facing persecution,then we are not going to send
them back to that place wherethey will be persecuted.
(05:24):
Prosecution, then we are notgoing to send them back to that
place where they will bepersecuted.
Now that law has evolved andthere's, you know, a lot of case
law on it and regulations andso forth.
So the process is person caneither come to the port of entry
, which would be you knowwherever you would normally
enter the United States a bridge, a tunnel, a land border and
you would apply for asylum.
A lot of people don't do itthat way, simply because a lot
(05:53):
of port of entries will turn theperson around and say, oh, you
can't do that.
I've heard people being told togo to the consulate and
consulates don't accept asylumapplications, so you can't do
that.
So a lot of people will crossin and then, once they're in,
they will either turn themselvesover to Border Patrol or they
will get to wherever they'regoing in the United States and
then apply for asylum.
There is nothing illegal aboutthat, despite what we're hearing
(06:15):
.
That is the way it's supposedto be done, either at a port of
entry or once you cross throughand you turn yourself in to ICE
or usually it's Customs andBorder Protection at the ports
of entry and you request asylum.
That is perfectly fine.
Now, the way that it's worked inthe past the person is detained
(06:36):
, asked a couple of questionsabout why they're afraid, and
then they are paroled into thecountry, so released into the
country under parole so thatthey can go to a United States
Citizenship and ImmigrationServices and apply for asylum,
and that's known as affirmativeasylum.
Other times, and more recentlyunder both the Biden
administration and, I believe,the Obama administration, what
(06:59):
was happening is people werecoming in, they were being asked
a series of very few questionsduring Biden administration,
almost no questions at all andthen they were released and put
in immigration proceedings inimmigration court to apply for
asylum in court.
So that was the other way, while, whether you're applying with
(07:24):
USCIS, us Citizenship andImmigration Services or the
immigration court, you areallowed to remain in the United
States and after 150 days thatyou submitted your application
and it's pending, then you canapply for work authorization.
So all of these things are doneto help the person seeking
refuge right and they will havetheir day either before USCIS or
an immigration court to provetheir case, to prove whether
(07:45):
they are persecuted and whetherthey are persecuted on a basis
that is recognized under the law, which religion, ethnicity,
race, political opinion, thosetypes of things.
So there are, I believe, fivecategories.
So if you fit into one of thoseand you can prove that you were
persecuted and you can provethat you fear persecution and
(08:07):
that there's nowhere within yourhome country that you can move
to, then you would be grantedasylum.
Asylum is discretionary, so thediscretion part is very big now
, both at USC as an immigrationcourt.
So you have to show that you'vepaid your taxes, that you don't
have any criminal convictions,things like that, basically,
(08:28):
that you have behaved whileyou're here, that you're a good
person and that, yes, you willbe persecuted if you return.
That's kind of it in a nutshell.
Jill Singleton (08:36):
Wow, okay, that's a lot.
And how does that differ from arefugee?
Because we hear about refugeesas well.
So what's the difference from arefugee?
Because we hear about refugeesas well.
So what's the differencebetween a refugee and an asylum
seeker?
Cari Pastor (08:48):
Okay, so under the law a refugee is someone that's
been processed overseas.
Okay, so that might be what wehear about, the big
displacements you know the warin Syria, for example right, and
so people left.
They would then go to a UNrefugee camp or office and they
would apply for status there,right, so the UN would maybe
(09:11):
recognize them as a refugee.
And then there are nonprofits,and I can only speak to the US
because I don't know how theyhandle it in other countries,
but obviously the UN deals withall different countries, but in
the US there are severalnonprofits that have applied to
receive refugees.
So when I was working for theCatholic Church in Detroit, we
(09:32):
also had a refugee division, andwhat would happen is we would
say these are the numbers offamilies that we can take, and I
remember back in those days,which was the 90s, we would take
over a thousand families a year.
And so once that person isrecognized as a refugee, once
one of the nonprofits hasaccepted them, they will then
(09:53):
come to.
They do it now, would findhousing, would help them find
work, and then they had astipend, I believe, for the
first six months, a smallstipend, depending on how many
people were in a family, and soit was the nonprofit's job to
(10:17):
relocate them, help them findwork, get them into English
classes, help them open bankaccounts, things like that, and
so they already come in with astatus, as opposed to an asylum
seeker that really comes inwithout a status and then is
requesting asylum.
Jill Singleton (10:33):
Right, and that's the very reason that the
lighthouse exists.
Right is that we recognize thatpeople, once they're released
from detention and are inespecially that vulnerable
period, before that 150 days haspassed and they are eligible
for their work papers and theirsocial security numbers to even
be able to pay taxes, they're ina very vulnerable state.
(10:54):
Is that a fair?
Cari Pastor (10:54):
statement.
That is a very fair statementbecause, unlike the refugee
program, the asylum program doesnot have any of those
safeguards.
There isn't a program to helpthem find work, there's no
program to help them find whereto learn English, there's no one
to teach them how to open abank account or how to rent a
place or sign a lease oranything like that.
(11:15):
So all of those safeguards thata refugee has is not available
to an asylum seeker.
So an organization likeLighthouse is extremely crucial
in those first few months whenan asylum seeker.
So an organization likeLighthouse is extremely crucial
in those first few months whenan asylum seeker is released and
is able to apply for asylum.
Jill Singleton (11:31):
It's really just , it's so much to even think
about and consider what peopleare facing in these situations.
You know many stories.
I know many stories you knowfrom walking with people on
their journeys.
I guess that raises thequestion for me because, to a
one you know, 130 people havecome through the lighthouse in
the eight years that we've beenrunning and we've been able to
(11:51):
house them and provide all theservices and the safeguards that
you were just mentioning.
And to a one, they have been,you know, very hardworking,
appreciative.
You know very hardworking,appreciative, earnest, and I
have been just so impressed bytheir integrity and their faith
(12:12):
and their appreciation for thiscountry is really it's quite
impressive and their commitmentto work hard and that is just so
counter to the messages thatwe're hearing in the media.
You know, there's sort of avery wide paintbrush, you know,
being crossed over folks andsaying, you know they're all
(12:32):
criminals or they're all this,they're just sending us
dangerous people and things likethat.
What do you have to say?
You know, how do we speak tothat narrative?
How do we speak truth into thatnarrative?
How do we speak to thatnarrative?
How do?
Cari Pastor (12:45):
we speak truth into that narrative.
Well, as all media, you takethe sensationalism because
that's what people watch andthat's what people sell.
So you take the few that havecommitted a crime or that were
deported because they committedcrimes and have somehow
reentered, and you focus on thatand say, well, everybody's like
that, everybody is that person,right.
So to me it reminds me a lot ofracism, right, where you take a
(13:10):
group of people and, becausethey're different, you
categorize every person in thatspecific category, whether it's
religion or race or whatever.
As you know, whateverstereotype you want to put Lazy
or criminals or shysters orwhatever.
And that's what's happeningwith asylum seekers as a group,
right, they'll take the one ortwo that you know are breaking
(13:32):
the laws or murdering orwhatever, right, bad things
they're doing.
And you say now, they're alllike that.
And that's not true by and far.
The majority of asylum seekersare people actually fleeing
persecution and whether werecognize it under the law or
not, the type of persecutionthat they're feeling, they are
still feeling that persecution,right, and there's trauma and
(13:57):
all sorts of things that comealong with that.
So I think that, if you were toask me, the most overlooked
service is the mental healthservice because trauma and I see
that every day when I havepeople come in and I'm
interviewing them and you knowit takes months to establish a
connection with an asylum seekerwhere I'm getting the full
(14:19):
story, sometimes even a year.
I've had clients that have beenmy clients for one or two years
and then all of a sudden thestory actually comes out and
they're crying in the tearsbecause you know you want to
forget.
You want to put asideeverything that's happened to
you.
That was bad.
These are traumatized peoplewho are trying to get their
lives back together.
They're doing the best they can.
(14:40):
One of the biggest questions Iget is when can I get my
employment authorization?
When can I get my employmentauthorization?
When can I get my employmentauthorization?
Because they want to work.
They don't want to be robbingpeople.
They don't want to be, you know, selling drugs or whatever it
is.
They honestly want to work.
They want to better their lives.
The ones that have children youknow I want my kids to go to
school.
They really want to be goodmembers of the American society.
(15:04):
They appreciate what thisgovernment's doing in the past.
It's a little different now,but you know they really want to
be here, and what I see rightnow is a lot of questions as to
why are we being detained whenwe're fleeing from being
detained in our home countriesand being tortured?
And one story that I canremember was a woman from the
(15:25):
Middle East and she came in toapply for asylum and they were
going to detain her until theyfigured out her story.
And she looked at me as theywere taking her away and she
said please don't let them putme in a dungeon and beat me,
because that's what she hadsuffered back home.
And here we are instead ofprotecting her, we're throwing
her in a jail.
That's not a dungeon and she'snot going to be beaten, but the
(15:47):
trauma is there and the traumais regular.
Jill Singleton (15:50):
Yes, I mean, I've had people say I'm not a
criminal.
They're in detention andthey're wearing a jumpsuit and
they're saying I'm not acriminal.
If anything, they're escapingviolence, they're escaping
persecution, they're escapingdrug cartels.
That's the last thing they wantto be involved with here.
Right, exactly, and I know, atthe Lighthouse I am definitely
(16:23):
seeing among current guests andformer guests, highly increased
levels of anxiety and you knowjust real fear about, you know,
being out in public.
I've had people tell me they'reafraid to speak in public
because they don't want peopleto hear their accent and then
they would be identified asother.
(16:43):
Are you seeing this?
What kinds of things are younoting?
You know changes in the pastseveral months, so we're getting
.
Cari Pastor (16:52):
I'm spending a lot more time on the phone than I
was in the past, you know, as isall of my staff, my paralegals
and everybody kind of dealingwith people's anxieties.
You know where in the pastsomebody would come in or call
and you would say, okay, this iswhat needs to be done and
whatever.
Now we're dealing with theemotional consequences.
You know, am I going to bearrested If I file something?
(17:12):
Am I going to be detained?
Will they come at my employer'splace and, you know, will they
be allowed in?
Will they come to my home andpull me out in front of my
children?
So a lot of it right now isjust having that empathy to
listen and advise them as bestas you can and to be there.
And, like I said, you asylumapplication married to a US
(17:33):
citizen.
The immigration judge had givenus time so that he could have
his marriage interview to see ifwe can do the green card in
court in addition to his asylum.
(17:53):
And I get to Detroit to do mycitizenship trial.
And that very first day myassociate had gone with him for
the marriage interview with hiswife and they pulled him and
arrested him out of the marriageinterview for no reason.
No criminal record, nothing atall.
So you can imagine I'm in trial, I can't get to them right away
(18:14):
.
My associate's trying to calmeverybody down.
When I'm done with the trialand I get to my office in Troy,
michigan, the wife, the cousin,the in-laws, everybody's sitting
there crying.
You know, and what did I do?
I had to jump into federalcourt and file a habeas to get
him released because there wasno reason for him to be detained
.
(18:34):
So that's what we're seeingright now.
We're seeing families tornapart for no reason whatsoever.
So that's a huge change, right?
Because before you could go toa marriage interview, you didn't
have to worry about it, and wehear stories about people being
arrested at ICE checkingsins oran immigration court Same thing.
You could do what you weresupposed to do, which is
check-in so they don't mark youas a fugitive.
(18:56):
You go to court so you're notdeported without being there and
getting all the penalties thatgo along with that and not being
able to get a green card whenthat happens.
And instead of having your dayin court or getting your USCIS
interview, you can be arrestedfor no reason Because, unlike
what we hear in the media that,oh, we're arresting the worst of
the worst.
It's not true.
And we've seen both I thinkit's Thomas Holmes, I think is
(19:22):
the ISAR and Secretary Noem say,oh, we're going after the worst
of the worst, but then alsoadding well, if you're here
without documentation or youentered illegally, then that's a
crime.
And so everybody's the worst ofthe worst, right, right, which
goes back to what we startedwith with.
Jill Singleton (19:42):
Are you really entering illegally when it is a
legal process to seek yourasylum here?
Right, so exactly, and so itreally.
It gets so convoluted, soquickly, I think, and so
difficult for people to keeptrack of.
But I think it is true that wehave been seeing people, as
you've just said, who you knowhave have status, they're
(20:04):
waiting for their day in court,right, and my feeling is, if
we're going to give somebodytheir day in court, we need to
protect them and make sure theycan survive to get that day in
court, right.
But but now, so you have yourday in court, you've already
fled all this persecution.
You've been re-traumatizedentering here.
We haven't even gotten into thedangers of the journey that
(20:27):
many people face, right, and thetraumas that they re-experience
there, and now you're justtrying to work, to put food on
the table and take care of yourchildren, and you're afraid that
you might get arrested at workbecause you've heard of that
happening, or you're afraid togo in and do your ICE check-in
because you might get arrestedthere, and so in some ways, it's
(20:47):
almost counterproductive, right.
We want the people who are inthe process to comply with the
process 100%, and certainly youknow that's so important to us
at the Lighthouse.
But it's just, it's hard to seethis happen.
So I guess my next question isyou know what keeps you up at
(21:08):
night?
Cari Pastor (21:13):
question is you know what keeps you up at night?
So many things and yeah, I'mhaving a lot of trouble sleeping
Lots of things keep me up atnight right now.
What's going to happen to myclients?
Am I going to wake up tomorrowmorning and get five calls that
five of my clients have beenarrested?
Or, for example, what's beenhappening recently is I'm
getting a lot of calls fromspouses that their spouse has
been detained when they've gonefor a check-in or they've gone
to court.
(21:34):
What can I do?
I don't know where that personis.
You know how do I find them?
Is there anything that can bedone?
Most recently, I had a call froma woman who lives in Houston
and her husband was picked up byICE just driving to work.
Her husband was picked up byICE just driving to work and
when I looked into it, there isactually a federal order out
(21:55):
there preventing people in hisspecific situation from being
arrested.
So ICE is violating the order.
So you know, you have to jumpin and deal with that, whether
that's going to court and saying, hey, they're violating an
order.
You know I always try to callICE first and say, hey, you know
, but if I can't get anywhere,then court's the alternative,
(22:16):
and the issue with that is it'svery expensive and the
nonprofits that are doing it arealready, you know, up to their
ears in work, so I think thatyou know that's.
The issue, too is like the onlyway to protect people right now
is going into court, andcourt's expensive representation
(22:54):
in court and how much greaterare their chances of receiving
their asylum if they haverepresentation versus not?
Jill Singleton (22:57):
Because in theory one can do it alone.
Right, in theory one can fillout the asylum application and
can just go through the process.
But I really wonder about thewin rates.
You know the difference betweenthose.
Cari Pastor (23:12):
So Syracuse University is very good at
compiling statistics and data,not only for represented to
unrepresented, for countries youknow where people coming from
that are getting asylum mostly,but for each individual judge
immigration judge in each court,right?
So I think, if I look, if Irecall their study, I think it
(23:33):
was like 18% that areunrepresented that actually get
granted and if you're notrepresented you're going to get
denied, right?
So that's an issue.
Like I said, the nonprofitshave always traditionally even
when I worked at a nonprofit wejust can't handle the volume
that comes in, unfortunately.
And of course, there is nogovernment paid right to a
(23:57):
lawyer.
You have a right to a lawyer aslong as you pay for it yourself
.
So if you cannot get anonprofit attorney and you have
to hire a private one, it'sgoing to cost several thousands
of dollars to get goodrepresentation, right, because
that's the other thing.
You know you want goodrepresentation.
You want you know somebodywho's putting in the evidence,
who's preparing you before yougo to court, things like that,
(24:18):
and that's time consuming andit's expensive.
So that does limit the amountof people that can get
representation.
If we're talking about federalcourt, which of course, is much
more expensive than immigrationcourt.
What I'd like to do is grouppeople together so we can spread
the cost around, right?
Because instead of paying andI'm just you know10,000 for a
(24:41):
federal case, but I have 10people with the same kind of
issue, that's $1,000 per person,which is much more manageable
than $10,000 per person.
So that's kind of what we'relooking at right now, because
(25:02):
that's kind of how we have to doit.
We have to group peopletogether to protect people's
rights so that they can affordit, right.
But I also I get up in themorning and I look at what the
nonprofits are doing to see ifthere is an order that's already
been, you know, or a groupthat's already challenging a
specific thing.
And you know, if somebody calls, or I have a client that can
(25:24):
sit in there it's like, hey, goto this group, sign up, because
you can be included in thatlawsuit, you know.
So why reinvent the wheel?
Why pay?
But again, you know, nonprofitsonly have a certain capacity.
They do cost actions, which is,you know, more feasible, and
there's just a certain capacityof how many of those they can
take.
Jill Singleton (25:44):
Could you?
You know anonymously, of course, but could you maybe just tell
us about one asylum case youknow, just so we can get a
picture of you know what was thesituation, what were the
challenges.
You know a successful outcomeand then maybe an outcome that
wasn't successful, just to givepeople an idea of you know what
(26:08):
kinds of cases are actuallywinning asylum and what kinds of
cases are getting weeded out inthe process.
Cari Pastor (26:14):
I've had cases where I've said, oh, there's no
way this case is going to win,Not because it's weak, but maybe
we don't have a ton of evidence, which you know is normal in
asylum.
I always say the person whodoesn't hand you a note saying,
hey, I want to persecute youbecause you're, you know,
Christian or you're Muslim orwhatever, they don't do that,
Right.
So maybe they don't have.
(26:36):
Or the client, even thoughthey've been prepped, is not a
great witness or whatever, andyou think you're going to lose.
And or you have a judge thathas like a two percent grant
rate, Right, and you're likethat's it.
But I've had, you know, thoseof one, that's it.
But I've had, you know, thosehave won.
And then there are others whereI think, oh no, this is a
(27:00):
surefire winner and they end uplosing.
So it's, you know, it's it's.
There's no one thing that Icould say you know, if they have
this, that and the other thing,they're going to win, Right,
and if they don't have this,that and the other, I think
they're going to lose becausethere's a lot of different
variants, Right.
So we try to put the best casetogether, as much evidence as
possible and things like that.
(27:21):
A successful case that comes tomind is a case of a student who
was from a Middle Easterncountry and they came in for a
competition in their area andthey were medical congressmen in
the state that they were in,and all of that, and held up the
(27:42):
flag of resistance of thatcountry as opposed to the
country flag.
So, of course, you know, theycould not go back and they
wanted to apply for asylum, butICE detained them and so he was
in jail at the time, and when Igot the case, I, you know like
you're not going to get out.
(28:02):
You know bond was alreadydenied.
You're willing to fight yourcase.
It's going to take severalmonths and of course, yeah,
because they knew darn well thatif they went back to that home
country they were going to bejailed, tortured and eventually
killed just for holding the flagof the resistance group.
So I thought this was going tobe tough and I explained to him
we're probably got a judge thatisn't that great and we're
(28:25):
probably going to have to peelit.
So I'm just going to make therecord for the appeal blah, blah
, blah.
And they were fine, they werewilling to stay, you know.
However, it took eight monthsif there's an appeal to a year.
And we went to court, presentedthe evidence, they testified, we
presented pictures of themholding up the flag and stuff
and granted and released thevery next day.
(28:46):
So that was great and thatprocess was again.
They were detained soeverything had to be done from
the detention center go outthere, fill out the asylum forms
.
They didn't have any familyhere, so that was tough, because
a lot of times it's the familythat we you know that we asked
for the evidence.
So they didn't have that, butthey did have their pictures and
(29:08):
they had their identitydocuments, which is very
important to show who you areand where you're from.
And we were able to put togethera lot of articles about what
was going on and what washappening to resistance members
and things like that Get themfor their testimony, you know
what things are going to beasked and things like that, so
that they're not nervous whenthey get in there.
And that person did a wonderfuljob and we got it.
(29:29):
So that was an awesome casebecause you know, you knew that
they were not going to be put injail, tortured and killed and
they could stay here andcontinue with the studies that
they were doing and live a goodand safe life.
Jill Singleton (29:46):
Yeah, that's a wonderful story.
Cari Pastor (29:49):
Yes, one that I've lost.
Domestic violence is one of thehardest asylum type cases to win
, just because it's just hard tofit under the current state of
the law.
You have to fit them in aparticular social group and a
lot of judges don't see thatparticular social group as it is
(30:11):
defined, which is a very toughdefinition to me.
And so this person had beenabused by her partner for years,
managed to escape, had you knowpictures of when she was beat
up, had the children who wereolder testify of what they saw
(30:34):
their mom go through and howthey too were beaten, had some
hospital reports and testifiedas best as they could given the
trauma, did not go see apsychologist here, which I
highly recommend.
But again, part culture Ihighly recommend, but again,
part culture part I don't wantto relive it.
So you know you get it.
(30:55):
And it was one of those caseswhere you know you want to just
cry listening to it and watchingthat person, have to repeat
everything and at the end thejudge said well, I believe that
all that happened to you, butyou just don't fit in the law so
I'm going to deny it, and thensent her back to the abuser.
Jill Singleton (31:14):
Basically, that's really hard.
I'm sure those are the onesthat you don't get a good
night's sleep after somethinglike that, for sure.
Cari Pastor (31:24):
Right, and you never forget.
I remember one I had in 1990that involved children and a mom
and that still haunts me tothis day.
Jill Singleton (31:31):
Yeah, that's a whole other thing that I think
people don't realize, that morethan half of the asylum seekers
are children.
Right, this is really a worldin which children are right at
the center and really need to beprotected, right.
Cari Pastor (31:49):
Whether it's from abusive.
You know parents or gangrecruitment or recruitment into.
You know hostilities or wars orwhatever all of that.
You know how they're beingtreated in schools and the
asylum system is not set up forchildren at all.
(32:11):
You know, especially if theydon't have their, they're
unaccompanied right so they haveno one to help them.
They don't understand thesystem and I have not.
I do not represent childrenbecause it's too taxing, I can't
do it.
Emotionally I can't handle it.
So I have not looked at thosestatistics, but I'll bet you
(32:34):
that even with representation,the unaccompanied children
getting asylum is extremely low.
Jill Singleton (32:40):
And the ones that we lose in the process, you
know, in one way or another, is, I'm sure, very high.
Speaking of children, you knowwe all remember the time when
children were separated fromtheir parents at the border and
records were not kept in allcases.
I understand there are stillmany children who have never
(33:04):
been reunited with their parentsfrom that time period.
Cari Pastor (33:08):
That's what I've heard also.
Jill Singleton (33:10):
Is that something that we could face
again?
Cari Pastor (33:12):
Yes, yes, I think we can face it again.
I unfortunately see thisadministration as having very
little empathy for asylumseekers or keeping families
together.
So, yes, I think that couldhappen again.
And whenever you separatechildren from parents and put
them into a big system like that, I though they are, you know,
(33:34):
understaffed it's still a lotbigger than the unaccompanied
minor program that the Office ofRefugee Resettlement they run
that has for the capability totrack them.
Jill Singleton (33:55):
So, yes, I see that coming up again a magic
wand and change one part of thesystem as it stands and let's
talk about for asylum seekers,because that's really what we're
talking about today.
What would that change be, andwhy?
Cari Pastor (34:14):
There are so many things, it's hard to pick one
right.
I mean, first, I make sure thatunaccompanied children had the
right to counsel, paid by thegovernment, because you can't
expect kids to get money to dothis.
You know, five-year-olds arenot.
You know, despite what BorderPatrol has said in the past,
(34:34):
five-year-olds do not come tothe United States to work, so
you know.
So that's, I think that wouldbe one thing.
The other is the particularsocial group definition in the
asylum laws.
That's almost impossible tomeet.
We don't require in any of theother groups things like social
(34:55):
visibility, nexus or anythinglike that.
So to the standard, we dorequire nexus, but not to the
standard that we require aparticular social group.
So, to the standard, we dorequire nexus, but not to the
standard that we require aparticular social group.
So I would change theparticular social group
definition to be more in linewith the rest of the categories
and, like I said, there's somany.
When you ask that question, myhead is just spinning with so
(35:16):
many things.
Jill Singleton (35:20):
So those are the two that just popped out in
front.
No-transcript.
(35:46):
So I you know I kind of resistconversations where people want
to paint it as you know oneside's problem or you know
things happened under thisadministration and paint it like
it was all great before.
I think it's been reallydifficult and I think, as you
say, it's a huge system.
I think it's been reallydifficult and I think, as you
say, it's a huge system and youknow, to be able to manage just
(36:12):
the volume of people and thecomplexity of issues but from a
humanitarian standpoint is anincredibly tall order.
Cari Pastor (36:18):
And I think you can look at any administration from
you know I think it's 1947 or49 when we did the first
immigration set of laws and eversince then, and point to
something that thatadministration could have done
better, shouldn't have done,could have done.
I mean there isn't oneadministration that you could
(36:38):
say, oh yeah, under that, thatwas a great administration,
Because every administration hasdone bad things and good things
.
Right, you know, even thecurrent one, there are.
I mean, I know people are goingto disagree with me, but there
are good things that they'vedone in terms of immigration,
but there's a lot of bad thingsthat they've done, you know, and
the bad is always going tooutweigh the good when you're
dealing with humanitarian issues.
(36:58):
Yeah, that is always going tooutweigh the good when you're
dealing with humanitarian issues.
Jill Singleton (37:03):
Yeah.
So, Cari, I know that you are aperson of great faith.
You know we've had thatconversation in the past, and
you, of course, know that theLighthouse is a ministry of the
Episcopal Church, and so I guessmy question for you is what
role does your faith play in thework that you do?
(37:24):
How do you draw on that, if atall?
How does it inform your work inany way?
Cari Pastor (37:31):
I draw that on all the time.
I am a lawyer, thanks to God.
I mean, my family had no money.
They came with nothing fromCuba, even though my mom was
from a very poor family in Cubaand she did come here with a
work visa.
But you know, back in those daysit was different.
She didn't come to work as headof GM or something you know.
She came to work in a factoryand my dad, of course, came with
(37:53):
nothing, being an asylum seeker, and I got to go to NYU on a
full scholarship and that wouldhave never happened.
I couldn't have paid for lawschool and I wouldn't have taken
out a loan, because that justwasn't something my family
permitted or I would have done.
I just wasn't raised that way.
So I'm a lawyer, through thegrace of God that I was able to
get that opportunity to go to agreat school and not pay a penny
(38:15):
.
So that's how it all startedright, and every time that I
have a hearing, an immigrationhearing or federal court, I look
towards God and try to say whatdo I need to do here?
And just let him guide me.
Jill Singleton (38:36):
Wow.
So God and the Holy Spirit isdefinitely at the heart of your
work.
It sounds like.
Cari Pastor (38:44):
Oh, yes, very much so.
Jill Singleton (38:46):
So, Cari, anytime we put the news on today
, there's any number of justchallenging, horrible, scary,
cruel things that are happening.
I think it's very easy forsomeone to tune out.
I've heard many people say Ijust don't listen to the news
anymore.
I've heard many people say Ijust don't listen to the news
anymore.
Cari Pastor (39:04):
I've heard that too .
Jill Singleton (39:05):
Yeah, and you know, no matter where you go,
you're getting one extreme orthe other, and you know people
feel like they're no longergetting just the news, but
they're getting sort of oneteam's sort of sensationalized
view of what's happening.
So I guess my question is forpeople who really want to know
the truth number one but, moreimportantly, also want to do
(39:28):
something, want to feel thatthey have something that they
can do other than sit, stand byand feel helpless.
I mean, what do you recommendthat somebody?
What can they do in thisenvironment at this time, with
the reality being what it is?
Cari Pastor (39:46):
Well, first thing is to be there for our neighbors
, to listen, to empathize withthe anxiety that they're going
through.
I think that's super important.
The second is joining peacefuldemonstrations and holding our
officials accountable.
Peaceful demonstrations andholding our officials
(40:06):
accountable.
Once a year, through theFederal Bar Association, I do
lobbying and we call it aCapitol Hill Day and we go
around and we talk to senatorsand congressmen about the issues
that are going on.
Now those are not necessarilyimmigration issues, different
organizations, but when I wasthere I was surprised to see a
lot of different groups that Inever even knew existed.
Lobbying, and I think that'simportant and you don't have to
(40:28):
be with any group.
You can go by yourself, but ofcourse numbers is better.
But get a group of concernedpeople together and go in and
explain to your senators andyour representatives at the
federal level what's going onthe federal level what's going
on?
Because a lot of times theydon't know what's going on down.
You know, in Jersey City or inEdison, you know they, just they
(40:50):
are not.
They're either watching some ofthe news or having somebody
scream for them and, as we know,the news is going to bring up
the sensationalism.
Right.
What is actually going on inthe ground?
Is I standing at an urgent careclinic?
Because we've had that happenin the past, right Years ago.
They didn't know anything aboutit, but you bring the pictures,
(41:10):
you talk to them and whatyou're seeing, give them a
picture of what one individualperson is going through and how
that's affecting other peopleand how that one individual,
what they're going through,isn't an isolated incident.
It's happening a lot.
I think that's important.
And then again, holding ourofficials accountable.
(41:33):
So to me, I think those are thethree important things Empathy,
peaceful protest, holding ourofficials accountable.
Important things Empathy,peaceful protests, holding our
officials accountable.
Jill Singleton (41:45):
If only more people were doing that instead
of shouting into the echochamber you know, fears and
their frustrations.
So thank you so much.
I'll ask just before we leaveif there's anything else that
you think people need to knowthat I haven't asked about.
That would be good for us toknow, given this context.
Cari Pastor (42:06):
So what I always say is don't lose hope.
And it's easier said than done,especially when you're detained
or you have a family memberdetained.
But you know, fight, fight foryour rights, especially if
you're detained.
Don't give up.
I know it's difficult.
It breaks my heart whenever Igo visit a client in jail.
(42:28):
You know, to see adults crying.
You know it's tough, but don'tgive up, because there is a
light at the end of the tunneland if we all stick together we
can accomplish great things.
So don't lose hope.
That would be the big one.
Jill Singleton (42:45):
I love it.
I think that's really important.
I try to live my life that wayand I know doing this work gives
me great hope, actually.
So I have great hope forhumanity and, despite the
situation that we're in, maybeit's a good thing we're going
through.
Maybe it will expose some ofthe areas that really need to be
reformed and where we need tobe more intentional and where we
(43:08):
really need to make sure thatwe are taking care of our
neighbor and loving our neighboras we're supposed to, so as
we're called to.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime today, Cari.
Thank you for the amazing workthat you do.
You know representing those whoare really vulnerable and who
have been marginalized and whoreally need a great advocate
(43:31):
like you by their side.
And thank you for all thesupport you give to the
Lighthouse as well.
It's been just so great havingyou in to do a Know your Rights
training with our guests and tobe able to have our questions
answered when we need them, so Ican't thank you enough for
being such a wonderful friend tothe Lighthouse and to so many.
Cari Pastor (43:51):
Well, thank you.
The Lighthouse does tremendouswork and it would be great to
see it grow and expand andcontinue the great work that
it's doing and the support it'sproviding for the vulnerable
people.
Thank you again for having mehere.
I've enjoyed this and Iappreciate the opportunity.
Jill Singleton (44:08):
Okay thank you so much and God bless you.
Thank you, thanks for listeningto the Crossing Voices from the
Lighthouse Today.
Attorney Cari Pastor remindedus that asylum seekers are not
criminals or statistics.
They are people fleeingpersecution who want nothing
more than to work, raise theirchildren and live in safety.
(44:29):
Cari spoke of the people tolisten, to stand alongside, to
hold leaders accountable and torefuse to look away.
For every listener who wonderswhat can I possibly do?
(44:52):
Start small, offer empathy,learn the truth, stand with a
neighbor, trust that even thesesimple acts matter.
I'm Deacon Jill Singleton.
We'll be back soon with morevoices and more stories.
In the meantime, please sharethis podcast with friends and
consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts or Spotify To
(45:14):
learn more about the Lighthouse.
Visit lighthousenjorg.
Until next time, peace be withyou.
Welcome to the Crossing Voices from the
Lighthouse.
Today we sit down with attorneyCari Pastor, an immigration
lawyer with more than 35 yearsof experience who has walked
alongside the Lighthouse throughcountless challenges.
For Cari, the law is more thana career.
It's a vocation, shaped by herown family's immigrant story and
(00:21):
sustained by deep faith.
Cari opens up about therealities of the asylum process,
cutting through the myths andmisinformation that cloud public
understanding, and she nameswhat's truly at stake for the
families and children who comehere seeking safety.
Cari also speaks with candorabout the brokenness of our
immigration system, offersstories of both heartbreak and
(00:43):
hope from the courtroom, andreflects on the faith that gives
her strength to continue.
Cari's words are both soberingand full of hope.
Here's our conversation.
Well, hello, Cari Pastor.
It's wonderful to have you heretoday on our podcast.
I've been waiting for thisopportunity to have a chance to
(01:04):
chat with you, so why don't youstart by telling our listeners a
little bit about you and aboutyour work?
Cari Pastor (01:11):
Okay, well, good morning and it's nice to be here
.
Thank you for inviting me.
So a little bit about me.
I'm an immigration lawyer.
I've been an immigration lawyernow for over 35 years.
It is the only law that Ipractice because, of course,
it's full-time.
It's very complicated.
My parents were both from Cubaand my mom came on a green card
(01:36):
through work sponsorship and myfather actually fled and applied
for asylum.
He was detained when he gothere and after he won his asylum
case he was released, and thatwas during the revolution in
Cuba in 1959.
So I have always kind of beendealing with immigration and, of
course, interested in it.
So that's kind of how I gotinto the field.
Jill Singleton (01:58):
Sounds like it's something that's really close
to your heart and something thatyou do really with passion, and
that you're really driven to do, much more so than a job, just
a regular job.
Cari Pastor (02:10):
It is, it is.
And interestingly enough, atthis age I've been asked am I
thinking about retirement?
And I always respond by sayingno, I just plan to drop dead in
court, in immigration court,someday.
Jill Singleton (02:22):
Well, I hope that doesn't happen, but it's
what the future will bring.
Yeah, so do you specialize inany particular kind of
immigration law?
Cari Pastor (02:33):
So my firm, which the firm has been around for 20
years.
So I started out at a nonprofitwith the Catholic Church their
legal immigration program inDetroit, and then I went to a
firm a private firm for a fewyears and then I started my own.
So actually it's been 25 years.
Time does fly and the firm doeseverything.
(02:54):
I have associates that dobusiness immigration, they do
family immigration, but Ispecialize in litigation.
So I do all the immigrationcourt work.
I do appeals, I do a lot offederal district court work
which during the first Trumpadministration and now that
there's an increase in that andI do federal appellate work.
(03:16):
I actually just got back lastweek from a trial in the US
District Court regardingcitizenship.
So it's yeah, it's court.
That's pretty much what I do,what I specialize in.
Jill Singleton (03:29):
I see.
So I think there's obviouslythere's a lot of talk right now
in the public and in the mediaabout immigration and about the
immigration challenges that weface in this country, and I
think that there are some thingsthat are really misunderstood.
And I guess I'd like to startby asking you because the
Lighthouse, as you know, wefocus on asylum seekers, so I
(03:54):
think that there's a lot ofmisunderstanding about what that
process looks like and whetherpeople who are coming here as
asylum seekers are quote unquotelegal here as asylum seekers
are quote unquote legal.
I was wondering if you couldsort of address the asylum
seeking process in the UnitedStates and help people
understand how does that work,what's the idea behind it and
(04:15):
how does it actually work inpractice.
Cari Pastor (04:18):
And that is a great question because in fact that's
the area of immigration that'sbeen most under attack recently,
right, because there's allsorts of misinformation about it
.
So the history of it comes frominternational law and it comes
from a time when Hitler was inpower and there was Jewish
(04:40):
people that were trying to cometo the United States and they
were denied.
And once they're back and wekind of pretty much know how
awful that was.
So after that the US decidedthat we need to welcome people
that are seeking asylum that aregoing to be persecuted and
tortured, and that waseventually codified in the
Immigration and Nationality Actand a lot of it kind of tracks
(05:03):
what the UN Committee on Refugeeand the treaties have said.
So that's where the law comesfrom and I guess the most
important at least I think themost important part of the law
is something callednon-reformment, which is, if a
person is facing persecution,then we are not going to send
them back to that place wherethey will be persecuted.
(05:24):
Prosecution, then we are notgoing to send them back to that
place where they will bepersecuted.
Now that law has evolved andthere's, you know, a lot of case
law on it and regulations andso forth.
So the process is person caneither come to the port of entry
, which would be you knowwherever you would normally
enter the United States a bridge, a tunnel, a land border and
you would apply for asylum.
A lot of people don't do itthat way, simply because a lot
(05:53):
of port of entries will turn theperson around and say, oh, you
can't do that.
I've heard people being told togo to the consulate and
consulates don't accept asylumapplications, so you can't do
that.
So a lot of people will crossin and then, once they're in,
they will either turn themselvesover to Border Patrol or they
will get to wherever they'regoing in the United States and
then apply for asylum.
There is nothing illegal aboutthat, despite what we're hearing
(06:15):
.
That is the way it's supposedto be done, either at a port of
entry or once you cross throughand you turn yourself in to ICE
or usually it's Customs andBorder Protection at the ports
of entry and you request asylum.
That is perfectly fine.
Now, the way that it's worked inthe past the person is detained
(06:36):
, asked a couple of questionsabout why they're afraid, and
then they are paroled into thecountry, so released into the
country under parole so thatthey can go to a United States
Citizenship and ImmigrationServices and apply for asylum,
and that's known as affirmativeasylum.
Other times, and more recentlyunder both the Biden
administration and, I believe,the Obama administration, what
(06:59):
was happening is people werecoming in, they were being asked
a series of very few questionsduring Biden administration,
almost no questions at all andthen they were released and put
in immigration proceedings inimmigration court to apply for
asylum in court.
So that was the other way, while, whether you're applying with
(07:24):
USCIS, us Citizenship andImmigration Services or the
immigration court, you areallowed to remain in the United
States and after 150 days thatyou submitted your application
and it's pending, then you canapply for work authorization.
So all of these things are doneto help the person seeking
refuge right and they will havetheir day either before USCIS or
an immigration court to provetheir case, to prove whether
(07:45):
they are persecuted and whetherthey are persecuted on a basis
that is recognized under the law, which religion, ethnicity,
race, political opinion, thosetypes of things.
So there are, I believe, fivecategories.
So if you fit into one of thoseand you can prove that you were
persecuted and you can provethat you fear persecution and
(08:07):
that there's nowhere within yourhome country that you can move
to, then you would be grantedasylum.
Asylum is discretionary, so thediscretion part is very big now
, both at USC as an immigrationcourt.
So you have to show that you'vepaid your taxes, that you don't
have any criminal convictions,things like that, basically,
(08:28):
that you have behaved whileyou're here, that you're a good
person and that, yes, you willbe persecuted if you return.
That's kind of it in a nutshell.
Jill Singleton (08:36):
Wow, okay, that's a lot.
And how does that differ from arefugee?
Because we hear about refugeesas well.
So what's the difference from arefugee?
Because we hear about refugeesas well.
So what's the differencebetween a refugee and an asylum
seeker?
Cari Pastor (08:48):
Okay, so under the law a refugee is someone that's
been processed overseas.
Okay, so that might be what wehear about, the big
displacements you know the warin Syria, for example right, and
so people left.
They would then go to a UNrefugee camp or office and they
would apply for status there,right, so the UN would maybe
(09:11):
recognize them as a refugee.
And then there are nonprofits,and I can only speak to the US
because I don't know how theyhandle it in other countries,
but obviously the UN deals withall different countries, but in
the US there are severalnonprofits that have applied to
receive refugees.
So when I was working for theCatholic Church in Detroit, we
(09:32):
also had a refugee division, andwhat would happen is we would
say these are the numbers offamilies that we can take, and I
remember back in those days,which was the 90s, we would take
over a thousand families a year.
And so once that person isrecognized as a refugee, once
one of the nonprofits hasaccepted them, they will then
(09:53):
come to.
They do it now, would findhousing, would help them find
work, and then they had astipend, I believe, for the
first six months, a smallstipend, depending on how many
people were in a family, and soit was the nonprofit's job to
(10:17):
relocate them, help them findwork, get them into English
classes, help them open bankaccounts, things like that, and
so they already come in with astatus, as opposed to an asylum
seeker that really comes inwithout a status and then is
requesting asylum.
Jill Singleton (10:33):
Right, and that's the very reason that the
lighthouse exists.
Right is that we recognize thatpeople, once they're released
from detention and are inespecially that vulnerable
period, before that 150 days haspassed and they are eligible
for their work papers and theirsocial security numbers to even
be able to pay taxes, they're ina very vulnerable state.
(10:54):
Is that a fair?
Cari Pastor (10:54):
statement.
That is a very fair statementbecause, unlike the refugee
program, the asylum program doesnot have any of those
safeguards.
There isn't a program to helpthem find work, there's no
program to help them find whereto learn English, there's no one
to teach them how to open abank account or how to rent a
place or sign a lease oranything like that.
(11:15):
So all of those safeguards thata refugee has is not available
to an asylum seeker.
So an organization likeLighthouse is extremely crucial
in those first few months whenan asylum seeker.
So an organization likeLighthouse is extremely crucial
in those first few months whenan asylum seeker is released and
is able to apply for asylum.
Jill Singleton (11:31):
It's really just , it's so much to even think
about and consider what peopleare facing in these situations.
You know many stories.
I know many stories you knowfrom walking with people on
their journeys.
I guess that raises thequestion for me because, to a
one you know, 130 people havecome through the lighthouse in
the eight years that we've beenrunning and we've been able to
(11:51):
house them and provide all theservices and the safeguards that
you were just mentioning.
And to a one, they have been,you know, very hardworking,
appreciative.
You know very hardworking,appreciative, earnest, and I
have been just so impressed bytheir integrity and their faith
(12:12):
and their appreciation for thiscountry is really it's quite
impressive and their commitmentto work hard and that is just so
counter to the messages thatwe're hearing in the media.
You know, there's sort of avery wide paintbrush, you know,
being crossed over folks andsaying, you know they're all
(12:32):
criminals or they're all this,they're just sending us
dangerous people and things likethat.
What do you have to say?
You know, how do we speak tothat narrative?
How do we speak truth into thatnarrative?
How do we speak to thatnarrative?
How do?
Cari Pastor (12:45):
we speak truth into that narrative.
Well, as all media, you takethe sensationalism because
that's what people watch andthat's what people sell.
So you take the few that havecommitted a crime or that were
deported because they committedcrimes and have somehow
reentered, and you focus on thatand say, well, everybody's like
that, everybody is that person,right.
So to me it reminds me a lot ofracism, right, where you take a
(13:10):
group of people and, becausethey're different, you
categorize every person in thatspecific category, whether it's
religion or race or whatever.
As you know, whateverstereotype you want to put Lazy
or criminals or shysters orwhatever.
And that's what's happeningwith asylum seekers as a group,
right, they'll take the one ortwo that you know are breaking
(13:32):
the laws or murdering orwhatever, right, bad things
they're doing.
And you say now, they're alllike that.
And that's not true by and far.
The majority of asylum seekersare people actually fleeing
persecution and whether werecognize it under the law or
not, the type of persecutionthat they're feeling, they are
still feeling that persecution,right, and there's trauma and
(13:57):
all sorts of things that comealong with that.
So I think that, if you were toask me, the most overlooked
service is the mental healthservice because trauma and I see
that every day when I havepeople come in and I'm
interviewing them and you knowit takes months to establish a
connection with an asylum seekerwhere I'm getting the full
(14:19):
story, sometimes even a year.
I've had clients that have beenmy clients for one or two years
and then all of a sudden thestory actually comes out and
they're crying in the tearsbecause you know you want to
forget.
You want to put asideeverything that's happened to
you.
That was bad.
These are traumatized peoplewho are trying to get their
lives back together.
They're doing the best they can.
(14:40):
One of the biggest questions Iget is when can I get my
employment authorization?
When can I get my employmentauthorization?
When can I get my employmentauthorization?
Because they want to work.
They don't want to be robbingpeople.
They don't want to be, you know, selling drugs or whatever it
is.
They honestly want to work.
They want to better their lives.
The ones that have children youknow I want my kids to go to
school.
They really want to be goodmembers of the American society.
(15:04):
They appreciate what thisgovernment's doing in the past.
It's a little different now,but you know they really want to
be here, and what I see rightnow is a lot of questions as to
why are we being detained whenwe're fleeing from being
detained in our home countriesand being tortured?
And one story that I canremember was a woman from the
(15:25):
Middle East and she came in toapply for asylum and they were
going to detain her until theyfigured out her story.
And she looked at me as theywere taking her away and she
said please don't let them putme in a dungeon and beat me,
because that's what she hadsuffered back home.
And here we are instead ofprotecting her, we're throwing
her in a jail.
That's not a dungeon and she'snot going to be beaten, but the
(15:47):
trauma is there and the traumais regular.
Jill Singleton (15:50):
Yes, I mean, I've had people say I'm not a
criminal.
They're in detention andthey're wearing a jumpsuit and
they're saying I'm not acriminal.
If anything, they're escapingviolence, they're escaping
persecution, they're escapingdrug cartels.
That's the last thing they wantto be involved with here.
Right, exactly, and I know, atthe Lighthouse I am definitely
(16:23):
seeing among current guests andformer guests, highly increased
levels of anxiety and you knowjust real fear about, you know,
being out in public.
I've had people tell me they'reafraid to speak in public
because they don't want peopleto hear their accent and then
they would be identified asother.
(16:43):
Are you seeing this?
What kinds of things are younoting?
You know changes in the pastseveral months, so we're getting
.
Cari Pastor (16:52):
I'm spending a lot more time on the phone than I
was in the past, you know, as isall of my staff, my paralegals
and everybody kind of dealingwith people's anxieties.
You know where in the pastsomebody would come in or call
and you would say, okay, this iswhat needs to be done and
whatever.
Now we're dealing with theemotional consequences.
You know, am I going to bearrested If I file something?
(17:12):
Am I going to be detained?
Will they come at my employer'splace and, you know, will they
be allowed in?
Will they come to my home andpull me out in front of my
children?
So a lot of it right now isjust having that empathy to
listen and advise them as bestas you can and to be there.
And, like I said, you asylumapplication married to a US
(17:33):
citizen.
The immigration judge had givenus time so that he could have
his marriage interview to see ifwe can do the green card in
court in addition to his asylum.
(17:53):
And I get to Detroit to do mycitizenship trial.
And that very first day myassociate had gone with him for
the marriage interview with hiswife and they pulled him and
arrested him out of the marriageinterview for no reason.
No criminal record, nothing atall.
So you can imagine I'm in trial, I can't get to them right away
(18:14):
.
My associate's trying to calmeverybody down.
When I'm done with the trialand I get to my office in Troy,
michigan, the wife, the cousin,the in-laws, everybody's sitting
there crying.
You know, and what did I do?
I had to jump into federalcourt and file a habeas to get
him released because there wasno reason for him to be detained
.
(18:34):
So that's what we're seeingright now.
We're seeing families tornapart for no reason whatsoever.
So that's a huge change, right?
Because before you could go toa marriage interview, you didn't
have to worry about it, and wehear stories about people being
arrested at ICE checkingsins oran immigration court Same thing.
You could do what you weresupposed to do, which is
check-in so they don't mark youas a fugitive.
(18:56):
You go to court so you're notdeported without being there and
getting all the penalties thatgo along with that and not being
able to get a green card whenthat happens.
And instead of having your dayin court or getting your USCIS
interview, you can be arrestedfor no reason Because, unlike
what we hear in the media that,oh, we're arresting the worst of
the worst.
It's not true.
And we've seen both I thinkit's Thomas Holmes, I think is
(19:22):
the ISAR and Secretary Noem say,oh, we're going after the worst
of the worst, but then alsoadding well, if you're here
without documentation or youentered illegally, then that's a
crime.
And so everybody's the worst ofthe worst, right, right, which
goes back to what we startedwith with.
Jill Singleton (19:42):
Are you really entering illegally when it is a
legal process to seek yourasylum here?
Right, so exactly, and so itreally.
It gets so convoluted, soquickly, I think, and so
difficult for people to keeptrack of.
But I think it is true that wehave been seeing people, as
you've just said, who you knowhave have status, they're
(20:04):
waiting for their day in court,right, and my feeling is, if
we're going to give somebodytheir day in court, we need to
protect them and make sure theycan survive to get that day in
court, right.
But but now, so you have yourday in court, you've already
fled all this persecution.
You've been re-traumatizedentering here.
We haven't even gotten into thedangers of the journey that
(20:27):
many people face, right, and thetraumas that they re-experience
there, and now you're justtrying to work, to put food on
the table and take care of yourchildren, and you're afraid that
you might get arrested at workbecause you've heard of that
happening, or you're afraid togo in and do your ICE check-in
because you might get arrestedthere, and so in some ways, it's
(20:47):
almost counterproductive, right.
We want the people who are inthe process to comply with the
process 100%, and certainly youknow that's so important to us
at the Lighthouse.
But it's just, it's hard to seethis happen.
So I guess my next question isyou know what keeps you up at
(21:08):
night?
Cari Pastor (21:13):
question is you know what keeps you up at night?
So many things and yeah, I'mhaving a lot of trouble sleeping
Lots of things keep me up atnight right now.
What's going to happen to myclients?
Am I going to wake up tomorrowmorning and get five calls that
five of my clients have beenarrested?
Or, for example, what's beenhappening recently is I'm
getting a lot of calls fromspouses that their spouse has
been detained when they've gonefor a check-in or they've gone
to court.
(21:34):
What can I do?
I don't know where that personis.
You know how do I find them?
Is there anything that can bedone?
Most recently, I had a call froma woman who lives in Houston
and her husband was picked up byICE just driving to work.
Her husband was picked up byICE just driving to work and
when I looked into it, there isactually a federal order out
(21:55):
there preventing people in hisspecific situation from being
arrested.
So ICE is violating the order.
So you know, you have to jumpin and deal with that, whether
that's going to court and saying, hey, they're violating an
order.
You know I always try to callICE first and say, hey, you know
, but if I can't get anywhere,then court's the alternative,
(22:16):
and the issue with that is it'svery expensive and the
nonprofits that are doing it arealready, you know, up to their
ears in work, so I think thatyou know that's.
The issue, too is like the onlyway to protect people right now
is going into court, andcourt's expensive representation
(22:54):
in court and how much greaterare their chances of receiving
their asylum if they haverepresentation versus not?
Jill Singleton (22:57):
Because in theory one can do it alone.
Right, in theory one can fillout the asylum application and
can just go through the process.
But I really wonder about thewin rates.
You know the difference betweenthose.
Cari Pastor (23:12):
So Syracuse University is very good at
compiling statistics and data,not only for represented to
unrepresented, for countries youknow where people coming from
that are getting asylum mostly,but for each individual judge
immigration judge in each court,right?
So I think, if I look, if Irecall their study, I think it
(23:33):
was like 18% that areunrepresented that actually get
granted and if you're notrepresented you're going to get
denied, right?
So that's an issue.
Like I said, the nonprofitshave always traditionally even
when I worked at a nonprofit wejust can't handle the volume
that comes in, unfortunately.
And of course, there is nogovernment paid right to a
(23:57):
lawyer.
You have a right to a lawyer aslong as you pay for it yourself
.
So if you cannot get anonprofit attorney and you have
to hire a private one, it'sgoing to cost several thousands
of dollars to get goodrepresentation, right, because
that's the other thing.
You know you want goodrepresentation.
You want you know somebodywho's putting in the evidence,
who's preparing you before yougo to court, things like that,
(24:18):
and that's time consuming andit's expensive.
So that does limit the amountof people that can get
representation.
If we're talking about federalcourt, which of course, is much
more expensive than immigrationcourt.
What I'd like to do is grouppeople together so we can spread
the cost around, right?
Because instead of paying andI'm just you know10,000 for a
(24:41):
federal case, but I have 10people with the same kind of
issue, that's $1,000 per person,which is much more manageable
than $10,000 per person.
So that's kind of what we'relooking at right now, because
(25:02):
that's kind of how we have to doit.
We have to group peopletogether to protect people's
rights so that they can affordit, right.
But I also I get up in themorning and I look at what the
nonprofits are doing to see ifthere is an order that's already
been, you know, or a groupthat's already challenging a
specific thing.
And you know, if somebody calls, or I have a client that can
(25:24):
sit in there it's like, hey, goto this group, sign up, because
you can be included in thatlawsuit, you know.
So why reinvent the wheel?
Why pay?
But again, you know, nonprofitsonly have a certain capacity.
They do cost actions, which is,you know, more feasible, and
there's just a certain capacityof how many of those they can
take.
Jill Singleton (25:44):
Could you?
You know anonymously, of course, but could you maybe just tell
us about one asylum case youknow, just so we can get a
picture of you know what was thesituation, what were the
challenges.
You know a successful outcomeand then maybe an outcome that
wasn't successful, just to givepeople an idea of you know what
(26:08):
kinds of cases are actuallywinning asylum and what kinds of
cases are getting weeded out inthe process.
Cari Pastor (26:14):
I've had cases where I've said, oh, there's no
way this case is going to win,Not because it's weak, but maybe
we don't have a ton of evidence, which you know is normal in
asylum.
I always say the person whodoesn't hand you a note saying,
hey, I want to persecute youbecause you're, you know,
Christian or you're Muslim orwhatever, they don't do that,
Right.
So maybe they don't have.
(26:36):
Or the client, even thoughthey've been prepped, is not a
great witness or whatever, andyou think you're going to lose.
And or you have a judge thathas like a two percent grant
rate, Right, and you're likethat's it.
But I've had, you know, thoseof one, that's it.
But I've had, you know, thosehave won.
And then there are others whereI think, oh no, this is a
(27:00):
surefire winner and they end uplosing.
So it's, you know, it's it's.
There's no one thing that Icould say you know, if they have
this, that and the other thing,they're going to win, Right,
and if they don't have this,that and the other, I think
they're going to lose becausethere's a lot of different
variants, Right.
So we try to put the best casetogether, as much evidence as
possible and things like that.
(27:21):
A successful case that comes tomind is a case of a student who
was from a Middle Easterncountry and they came in for a
competition in their area andthey were medical congressmen in
the state that they were in,and all of that, and held up the
(27:42):
flag of resistance of thatcountry as opposed to the
country flag.
So, of course, you know, theycould not go back and they
wanted to apply for asylum, butICE detained them and so he was
in jail at the time, and when Igot the case, I, you know like
you're not going to get out.
(28:02):
You know bond was alreadydenied.
You're willing to fight yourcase.
It's going to take severalmonths and of course, yeah,
because they knew darn well thatif they went back to that home
country they were going to bejailed, tortured and eventually
killed just for holding the flagof the resistance group.
So I thought this was going tobe tough and I explained to him
we're probably got a judge thatisn't that great and we're
(28:25):
probably going to have to peelit.
So I'm just going to make therecord for the appeal blah, blah
, blah.
And they were fine, they werewilling to stay, you know.
However, it took eight monthsif there's an appeal to a year.
And we went to court, presentedthe evidence, they testified, we
presented pictures of themholding up the flag and stuff
and granted and released thevery next day.
(28:46):
So that was great and thatprocess was again.
They were detained soeverything had to be done from
the detention center go outthere, fill out the asylum forms
.
They didn't have any familyhere, so that was tough, because
a lot of times it's the familythat we you know that we asked
for the evidence.
So they didn't have that, butthey did have their pictures and
(29:08):
they had their identitydocuments, which is very
important to show who you areand where you're from.
And we were able to put togethera lot of articles about what
was going on and what washappening to resistance members
and things like that Get themfor their testimony, you know
what things are going to beasked and things like that, so
that they're not nervous whenthey get in there.
And that person did a wonderfuljob and we got it.
(29:29):
So that was an awesome casebecause you know, you knew that
they were not going to be put injail, tortured and killed and
they could stay here andcontinue with the studies that
they were doing and live a goodand safe life.
Jill Singleton (29:46):
Yeah, that's a wonderful story.
Cari Pastor (29:49):
Yes, one that I've lost.
Domestic violence is one of thehardest asylum type cases to win
, just because it's just hard tofit under the current state of
the law.
You have to fit them in aparticular social group and a
lot of judges don't see thatparticular social group as it is
(30:11):
defined, which is a very toughdefinition to me.
And so this person had beenabused by her partner for years,
managed to escape, had you knowpictures of when she was beat
up, had the children who wereolder testify of what they saw
(30:34):
their mom go through and howthey too were beaten, had some
hospital reports and testifiedas best as they could given the
trauma, did not go see apsychologist here, which I
highly recommend.
But again, part culture Ihighly recommend, but again,
part culture part I don't wantto relive it.
So you know you get it.
(30:55):
And it was one of those caseswhere you know you want to just
cry listening to it and watchingthat person, have to repeat
everything and at the end thejudge said well, I believe that
all that happened to you, butyou just don't fit in the law so
I'm going to deny it, and thensent her back to the abuser.
Jill Singleton (31:14):
Basically, that's really hard.
I'm sure those are the onesthat you don't get a good
night's sleep after somethinglike that, for sure.
Cari Pastor (31:24):
Right, and you never forget.
I remember one I had in 1990that involved children and a mom
and that still haunts me tothis day.
Jill Singleton (31:31):
Yeah, that's a whole other thing that I think
people don't realize, that morethan half of the asylum seekers
are children.
Right, this is really a worldin which children are right at
the center and really need to beprotected, right.
Cari Pastor (31:49):
Whether it's from abusive.
You know parents or gangrecruitment or recruitment into.
You know hostilities or wars orwhatever all of that.
You know how they're beingtreated in schools and the
asylum system is not set up forchildren at all.
(32:11):
You know, especially if theydon't have their, they're
unaccompanied right so they haveno one to help them.
They don't understand thesystem and I have not.
I do not represent childrenbecause it's too taxing, I can't
do it.
Emotionally I can't handle it.
So I have not looked at thosestatistics, but I'll bet you
(32:34):
that even with representation,the unaccompanied children
getting asylum is extremely low.
Jill Singleton (32:40):
And the ones that we lose in the process, you
know, in one way or another, is, I'm sure, very high.
Speaking of children, you knowwe all remember the time when
children were separated fromtheir parents at the border and
records were not kept in allcases.
I understand there are stillmany children who have never
(33:04):
been reunited with their parentsfrom that time period.
Cari Pastor (33:08):
That's what I've heard also.
Jill Singleton (33:10):
Is that something that we could face
again?
Cari Pastor (33:12):
Yes, yes, I think we can face it again.
I unfortunately see thisadministration as having very
little empathy for asylumseekers or keeping families
together.
So, yes, I think that couldhappen again.
And whenever you separatechildren from parents and put
them into a big system like that, I though they are, you know,
(33:34):
understaffed it's still a lotbigger than the unaccompanied
minor program that the Office ofRefugee Resettlement they run
that has for the capability totrack them.
Jill Singleton (33:55):
So, yes, I see that coming up again a magic
wand and change one part of thesystem as it stands and let's
talk about for asylum seekers,because that's really what we're
talking about today.
What would that change be, andwhy?
Cari Pastor (34:14):
There are so many things, it's hard to pick one
right.
I mean, first, I make sure thatunaccompanied children had the
right to counsel, paid by thegovernment, because you can't
expect kids to get money to dothis.
You know, five-year-olds arenot.
You know, despite what BorderPatrol has said in the past,
(34:34):
five-year-olds do not come tothe United States to work, so
you know.
So that's, I think that wouldbe one thing.
The other is the particularsocial group definition in the
asylum laws.
That's almost impossible tomeet.
We don't require in any of theother groups things like social
(34:55):
visibility, nexus or anythinglike that.
So to the standard, we dorequire nexus, but not to the
standard that we require aparticular social group.
So, to the standard, we dorequire nexus, but not to the
standard that we require aparticular social group.
So I would change theparticular social group
definition to be more in linewith the rest of the categories
and, like I said, there's somany.
When you ask that question, myhead is just spinning with so
(35:16):
many things.
Jill Singleton (35:20):
So those are the two that just popped out in
front.
No-transcript.
(35:46):
So I you know I kind of resistconversations where people want
to paint it as you know oneside's problem or you know
things happened under thisadministration and paint it like
it was all great before.
I think it's been reallydifficult and I think, as you
say, it's a huge system.
I think it's been reallydifficult and I think, as you
say, it's a huge system and youknow, to be able to manage just
(36:12):
the volume of people and thecomplexity of issues but from a
humanitarian standpoint is anincredibly tall order.
Cari Pastor (36:18):
And I think you can look at any administration from
you know I think it's 1947 or49 when we did the first
immigration set of laws and eversince then, and point to
something that thatadministration could have done
better, shouldn't have done,could have done.
I mean there isn't oneadministration that you could
(36:38):
say, oh yeah, under that, thatwas a great administration,
Because every administration hasdone bad things and good things
.
Right, you know, even thecurrent one, there are.
I mean, I know people are goingto disagree with me, but there
are good things that they'vedone in terms of immigration,
but there's a lot of bad thingsthat they've done, you know, and
the bad is always going tooutweigh the good when you're
dealing with humanitarian issues.
(36:58):
Yeah, that is always going tooutweigh the good when you're
dealing with humanitarian issues.
Jill Singleton (37:03):
Yeah.
So, Cari, I know that you are aperson of great faith.
You know we've had thatconversation in the past, and
you, of course, know that theLighthouse is a ministry of the
Episcopal Church, and so I guessmy question for you is what
role does your faith play in thework that you do?
(37:24):
How do you draw on that, if atall?
How does it inform your work inany way?
Cari Pastor (37:31):
I draw that on all the time.
I am a lawyer, thanks to God.
I mean, my family had no money.
They came with nothing fromCuba, even though my mom was
from a very poor family in Cubaand she did come here with a
work visa.
But you know, back in those daysit was different.
She didn't come to work as headof GM or something you know.
She came to work in a factoryand my dad, of course, came with
(37:53):
nothing, being an asylum seeker, and I got to go to NYU on a
full scholarship and that wouldhave never happened.
I couldn't have paid for lawschool and I wouldn't have taken
out a loan, because that justwasn't something my family
permitted or I would have done.
I just wasn't raised that way.
So I'm a lawyer, through thegrace of God that I was able to
get that opportunity to go to agreat school and not pay a penny
(38:15):
.
So that's how it all startedright, and every time that I
have a hearing, an immigrationhearing or federal court, I look
towards God and try to say whatdo I need to do here?
And just let him guide me.
Jill Singleton (38:36):
Wow.
So God and the Holy Spirit isdefinitely at the heart of your
work.
It sounds like.
Cari Pastor (38:44):
Oh, yes, very much so.
Jill Singleton (38:46):
So, Cari, anytime we put the news on today
, there's any number of justchallenging, horrible, scary,
cruel things that are happening.
I think it's very easy forsomeone to tune out.
I've heard many people say Ijust don't listen to the news
anymore.
I've heard many people say Ijust don't listen to the news
anymore.
Cari Pastor (39:04):
I've heard that too .
Jill Singleton (39:05):
Yeah, and you know, no matter where you go,
you're getting one extreme orthe other, and you know people
feel like they're no longergetting just the news, but
they're getting sort of oneteam's sort of sensationalized
view of what's happening.
So I guess my question is forpeople who really want to know
the truth number one but, moreimportantly, also want to do
(39:28):
something, want to feel thatthey have something that they
can do other than sit, stand byand feel helpless.
I mean, what do you recommendthat somebody?
What can they do in thisenvironment at this time, with
the reality being what it is?
Cari Pastor (39:46):
Well, first thing is to be there for our neighbors
, to listen, to empathize withthe anxiety that they're going
through.
I think that's super important.
The second is joining peacefuldemonstrations and holding our
officials accountable.
Peaceful demonstrations andholding our officials
(40:06):
accountable.
Once a year, through theFederal Bar Association, I do
lobbying and we call it aCapitol Hill Day and we go
around and we talk to senatorsand congressmen about the issues
that are going on.
Now those are not necessarilyimmigration issues, different
organizations, but when I wasthere I was surprised to see a
lot of different groups that Inever even knew existed.
Lobbying, and I think that'simportant and you don't have to
(40:28):
be with any group.
You can go by yourself, but ofcourse numbers is better.
But get a group of concernedpeople together and go in and
explain to your senators andyour representatives at the
federal level what's going onthe federal level what's going
on?
Because a lot of times theydon't know what's going on down.
You know, in Jersey City or inEdison, you know they, just they
(40:50):
are not.
They're either watching some ofthe news or having somebody
scream for them and, as we know,the news is going to bring up
the sensationalism.
Right.
What is actually going on inthe ground?
Is I standing at an urgent careclinic?
Because we've had that happenin the past, right Years ago.
They didn't know anything aboutit, but you bring the pictures,
(41:10):
you talk to them and whatyou're seeing, give them a
picture of what one individualperson is going through and how
that's affecting other peopleand how that one individual,
what they're going through,isn't an isolated incident.
It's happening a lot.
I think that's important.
And then again, holding ourofficials accountable.
(41:33):
So to me, I think those are thethree important things Empathy,
peaceful protest, holding ourofficials accountable.
Important things Empathy,peaceful protests, holding our
officials accountable.
Jill Singleton (41:45):
If only more people were doing that instead
of shouting into the echochamber you know, fears and
their frustrations.
So thank you so much.
I'll ask just before we leaveif there's anything else that
you think people need to knowthat I haven't asked about.
That would be good for us toknow, given this context.
Cari Pastor (42:06):
So what I always say is don't lose hope.
And it's easier said than done,especially when you're detained
or you have a family memberdetained.
But you know, fight, fight foryour rights, especially if
you're detained.
Don't give up.
I know it's difficult.
It breaks my heart whenever Igo visit a client in jail.
(42:28):
You know, to see adults crying.
You know it's tough, but don'tgive up, because there is a
light at the end of the tunneland if we all stick together we
can accomplish great things.
So don't lose hope.
That would be the big one.
Jill Singleton (42:45):
I love it.
I think that's really important.
I try to live my life that wayand I know doing this work gives
me great hope, actually.
So I have great hope forhumanity and, despite the
situation that we're in, maybeit's a good thing we're going
through.
Maybe it will expose some ofthe areas that really need to be
reformed and where we need tobe more intentional and where we
(43:08):
really need to make sure thatwe are taking care of our
neighbor and loving our neighboras we're supposed to, so as
we're called to.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime today, Cari.
Thank you for the amazing workthat you do.
You know representing those whoare really vulnerable and who
have been marginalized and whoreally need a great advocate
(43:31):
like you by their side.
And thank you for all thesupport you give to the
Lighthouse as well.
It's been just so great havingyou in to do a Know your Rights
training with our guests and tobe able to have our questions
answered when we need them, so Ican't thank you enough for
being such a wonderful friend tothe Lighthouse and to so many.
Cari Pastor (43:51):
Well, thank you.
The Lighthouse does tremendouswork and it would be great to
see it grow and expand andcontinue the great work that
it's doing and the support it'sproviding for the vulnerable
people.
Thank you again for having mehere.
I've enjoyed this and Iappreciate the opportunity.
Jill Singleton (44:08):
Okay thank you so much and God bless you.
Thank you, thanks for listeningto the Crossing Voices from the
Lighthouse Today.
Attorney Cari Pastor remindedus that asylum seekers are not
criminals or statistics.
They are people fleeingpersecution who want nothing
more than to work, raise theirchildren and live in safety.
(44:29):
Cari spoke of the people tolisten, to stand alongside, to
hold leaders accountable and torefuse to look away.
For every listener who wonderswhat can I possibly do?
(44:52):
Start small, offer empathy,learn the truth, stand with a
neighbor, trust that even thesesimple acts matter.
I'm Deacon Jill Singleton.
We'll be back soon with morevoices and more stories.
In the meantime, please sharethis podcast with friends and
consider leaving a review onApple Podcasts or Spotify To
(45:14):
learn more about the Lighthouse.
Visit lighthousenjorg.
Until next time, peace be withyou.
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