Ep. 53: "We Have Your Father Here"

🎙️ Leave us a voice message here! 

In Ep. 53: "We Have Your Father Here," Naomi Wright returns to share more of her journey, including the unexpected loss of her father—a moment that shattered the very teachings he had preached. After years of claiming he would never die, his passing set off a slow domino effect, unraveling long-held beliefs and exposing the cracks in his doctrine. Naomi reflects on this pivotal moment, the impact it had on her healing, and how she continues to help others break free from spiritual abuse.

Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!  #TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong and.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
I am here to bring you the truth. No one
else is telling you the things that God is telling
you through me.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
He's making through me.

Speaker 4 (00:18):
The Lord let me experience what it is to be
a new bride.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic.

Speaker 4 (00:27):
We're coming to the Lord and if you can.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Take it, beyond the veil is the chamber. That's the
wedding chamber.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
The Lord told me that. But from then on, visions
begin to come. When this comes up on me, it
produces the vision. I'm able to tell people what's wrong
with them, what they must do in life, the sins
that they are holding back.

Speaker 4 (00:50):
In their life. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the
Coltoning Store Podcast. I am Maddie Lassiter. Before we get
started with today episode, once again, remind everyone go follow
us on our socials so Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. Also want
to do our Double Portion Club shout outs. Chase and Shanda,
thank you very much, Heather Bartlett and Carla, thank you

(01:14):
all very much for your support and shout out to
you these folks are Patreon members. If you would like
to be a Patreon member, go check that out. We've
got a five dollar tier and a ten dollars tier.
Ten dollars tier gets you a shout out. Either tier
you get a really cool sticker that we'll send to you.
Also a reminder, if you would like to watch these
episodes rather than just listen, you can do that on

(01:34):
our YouTube. Most of our episodes we have some sort
of video, so you can go check that out there. Also,
I'm going to read a quick five star review. This
is from sid Ken and that says not alone. Much
like Maddie and Ashley, my oldest sister and I were
separated for nearly thirty years due to toxic religion. We
now have a wonderful relationship as adults. Listening to this

(01:56):
podcast has truly helped me continue to process and heal.
It sounds cliche and I've said it one hundred times
and Nashley has two, but that genuinely is the reason
why we started doing this is that we were helped
with things like this, so we thought, well, there are
other people like us, let's see if we can help them.
And so to hear that it is helpful and helping

(02:17):
people on their healing journey is amazing for me and
for Ashley, I know. And speaking of five star reviews,
if you haven't already, please go leave us one on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you listen. It really helps us. And
now we're going to join episode two with our guests. Naomi. Okay,
so you talked a little bit earlier about the Message

(02:37):
which was the group that your dad was in. Maybe
talk a little bit about their theology and doctrine and
then also off of that kind of how your dad
took that his own way and made changes and what
he kept maybe, so just kind of speak about the
theology and doctrine of those two.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
So, as far as I know, when my dad made
his decision about polygamy, he traveled up and I don't
know to some extent up and down the East Coast.
I mean, he was going to some different message churches
and trying to share kind of his new revelation of
the next phase of truth, you know, these new like

(03:19):
special revelations that supposedly keep happening, and so he would
share and then he would get in some cases like
brutally rejected. So I have a cousin who I recently
connected with again, had never met him. That's just the
story of my life. So got connected with this cousin
who's like, no, when I was a teenager, your dad

(03:40):
actually came to the Message church we were a part of,
and they treated him so horribly that I actually left
the message. I'm like, well, yay, something good came out
of this. So I haven't heard more detail, and I'm
actually supposed to meet him for the first time here
soon in person, and I'm really looking forward to hearing
more about that. I think. I think it also speaks

(04:01):
to like how we probably should respond to someone when
they're going like off the deep end, Like just being
super judgmental and harsh is not going to make it stop,
you know, like sitting down and actually hearing someone and
asking questions. And so I'm deeply disappointed that those he

(04:22):
went to did not handle it better in a way
that hopefully would have curbed the direction he was going.
And yet they were also in a cult, so I mean,
had they, he probably still would have ended up being
a cult leader, maybe of a different kind, I'm not sure,
but it's just it is interesting to hear some of
those other pieces of how different people played into the

(04:43):
end result, not taking accountability away from my debt, because
ultimately I do believe it's on him the decisions he's made.
But yeah, I just find that interesting. So he again
basically gets excommunicated and then it's my mom moves forward.
He then takes the theology, and there's there's some differences.

(05:05):
So there are and again all the message churches have
their own differences because they all think that they're the
right ones. So I can't really compare him to like
there isn't a standard, like there isn't like one to
compare it to. So some earmarks of his belief system, though,
were one, we were all going to walk into the

(05:26):
new heavens and in their new Earth together, so he
was not going to die. The other older generation, you know,
parent generation, were not going to die. That one's super
important because he died when I was twenty one, and
well that wasn't supposed to happen. But he had told
some told about some dreams that he would have, and

(05:47):
he used to share about them, like in our Bible studies,
and we would all gather and he'd share about how
he would go away for a little while he'd come
back and like everyone would have scattered, and he's using
scripture kind of back this as well, like the wheat
from the chaff kind of thing, like we're going to
be able to tell because those who stay are going
to be the true believers. So so when he died,

(06:09):
too familiar. Okay, so I'm just gonna camp out here
for a second if I can't, because this one's really big.
So when he well, my mom went to Ohio and
was staying with him starting in September, and so we
knew he wasn't like thriving, but we we were not
being told reports. You know that name it claim it,

(06:29):
like you're not gonna say that dad is dying because
then you're not believing, then you're not. So there was
some of that in there too, so we didn't know
how bad he was. Well, I went, I was newly married.
I had gotten married that summer. This was my first husband.
It's not all married too now, So I got married
that summer. We go down to Ohio to spend New

(06:49):
Year's with friends and pop in then on Tuesday, which
I think maybe was New Year's Day or the day
after whatever, So we pop in after that just to
say hi before we're going to head back home. It
was my senior year of college in between the last
It was January, so one semester left, my ex husband
and I were going to be graduating and popping to

(07:11):
see him. And it's like, this is how I said
it to my brother when I called him, I was like,
I know that it like can't happen, but like, for
all intents and purposes, it looks like Dad is dying.
So that's how I said to him. I'm like, you
might want to come, and so him and I don't
remember if they were married at the time or not.
I think his fiance at the time. They came and

(07:32):
we're all like hanging around. I just hung around throughout
the week. Finally, on Saturday, my ex husband and I leave,
we go to drive back to New York. So convinced
that like Dad's gonna be fine, he did make a
doctor's appointment on Monday. It was gonna be Monday, January eighth.
He was gonna go to the doctor's appointments, who were like, great,
he's actually gonna be seen. Now that's unheard of because

(07:53):
like people didn't really get medical care. So when I
said earlier, I fell off that bike, right, no medical care.
Even my tooth. At that point, my front tooth had
just been chipped diagonally in half. I had exposed nerves
until I finally got it fixed when I was thirteen.
It was I couldn't bite any Even today, if I
eat an apple, I bite from the bottom up. It's

(08:15):
just like, you can learn these ways of coping, and
so we just we didn't fix stuff. We didn't you know,
you didn't go see a doctor. I had a uti
once when I was a kid. I got to a
fever of one oh six before my dad said it
was okay to take me to the hospital. So multiple
stories where I could have died or had something horrible happen.
So for him to have a doctor's appointment was like, Wow,

(08:36):
this is a big deal. Go back home, get in
at like two three in the morning, wake up at
like ten thirty. I remember I'm walking to the grocery
store because classes are starting for the last semester. I
walking in the grocery store to get food for the week.
I get a call from my brother, Dad's dead, and
like just like I remember just turning around, getting back

(08:58):
in the car and starting to drive back to Ohio.
But I'm like totally dissociative. I mean, like the shock,
it is a complicated it's a complex grief situation that
like therapists don't know what to do with right, because
this isn't like our normal paradigm. We were so confident though,
that he couldn't die that we literally went home the
night before he died. It's like, I mean, that's he

(09:20):
was actively dying, is my point. Now. I then ended
up I worked for hospice for several years during my career.
Probably could see why how that maybe came to be,
and being a part of having the honor being a
part of so many dying processes, the active dying process
is not something that is unrecognizable. I mean, I know
that someone's getting close, but we were so convinced that

(09:43):
he was going to be healed. So when I arrived, though,
there were like fifty sixty ish people maybe who had
gathered at the house. They had him just like laying
on the floor upstairs in that apartment that I had mentioned.
And I remember pulling in and I had to like
walk through all of these people and walk upstairs like
see his body. I immediately then go into like help remote,

(10:06):
like I have to comfort everybody. This had been my
role since I was a little kid, Like I was
always trying to make my mom feel better and make
sure she knew she was loved and protect my siblings,
you know, from my dad's wrath. And so this is
what I did. So I immediately jump in, and I'm like, okay,
he said, and I remember being one of I don't
know if anyone had said it before me. I know

(10:28):
I didn't hear it from anyone before I said it.
And I said, well, he said he would go away
for a while, and so this is going to be okay.
And I remember one of my hat this is like
how bought in. I am right, I was raised in this.
I had suffered so much abuse on its behalf. I mean,
please let it be true. Let this be for some purpose.

(10:49):
So I remember one of my half sisters too. She
had been there actually when he died. I don't think
she was in the room. I think she was downstairs
and she heard my mom cry out. If I'm not mistaken,
but I remember her and one of and her full brothers.
So another one of my half brothers really struggling because
they didn't feel bad that he had died, and I

(11:10):
remember comforting them and being like, well, he had a
really rough upbringing too. He had a you know kind
of like tempering that and not shaming them for it.
I wasn't like I got it, but also like, you know,
I was at my last semester of my bachelor's in
social work and like looking at all these family dynamics
and how things affect people and really kind of helping

(11:33):
them to not totally throw him out. The reason I
say that right now and that feels important to me,
is because she is now married to the leader who
took over after my dad, and so I find that
to be just I regret that, and I regret it
with total like kindness and grace towards myself, knowing I

(11:55):
didn't know what I didn't know, but I kind of
was key and that moment and helping her salvage that
my dad had some good and now like she wouldn't
say anything bad about him. The fact that he called
her fat as a pig when she was growing up
and treated her terribly, that's all not existent in her
world now like he's amazing, Like that's just all gone.

(12:16):
So I'm like the really bad one, you know, who's
being honest about what it looked like. So we then
go through all of that. My mom, no one would
move for years because they had to be there when
he came back, right, So, like no one would move,
no one was buried though, right, Well that's you want

(12:39):
to hear that story?

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yes, because I'm just imagining what this could be.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
And pretending this is a cocktail.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Right now we can so I, oh, yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
Return to ashes. We're trying to figure it, like what
do we do with him? And I'm I'm a fan
of cremation. I did no issue with that anyway, but
that was like why we decided for cremation was like
I don't know, like dust to dust, like send them
back to dust. Like we're trying to figure out, like
this wasn't supposed to happen. Again, we have no framework
for how to even think about this, and so we
decide to have him cremated. The funeral home was the

(13:21):
head of the director or whatever was a friend of
one of the men who was in this cult, and
so that's how we got referred to it. We go there,
we do the process, all that stuff. My mom and
I make the decision because I'm kind of I'm the
main person like helping her through this. I remember having
to like walk into the funeral home with her and
she like can barely hold herself up, which could be
normal anyway, of course, we just have this additional theological

(13:43):
spiritual weight on it. And then we have the not
being legally married part. So we go in and we
find out a few days later everything's a mess because
everything's defaulting back to his ex wife because my mom
was not legally married, so he technically could not be
the executricks of this estate. She could not sign off

(14:05):
on his funeral. Like it was a whole mess. So
that was just on top of everything else. Like you've
got to be kidding me. So we get a we'd
make the decision ultimately to allow them the funeral home
to bury his ashes in an unmarked plot in the
back of something they offered like if you just or

(14:26):
if like they just not forgot picked up kind of thing.
They're like, this is what we do if you just
never picked up your loved one, which makes sense. I
guess it's hard to imagine that happening, but I guess
they have that. Like here's what we'll do. So we
decided to just let that happen. We're like, we believe
that he bear with me, you guys, it's getting weirder.
We believe that he is restored in a younger body,

(14:49):
and he is preaching and teaching in another country, and
he's going to send people back again. We didn't just
come up with this. He talked about how this would happen,
so like he was gonna be restored to his younger body,
but everyone else was supposed to be and there wasn't
supposed to be death in the middle. But we're like
kind of plucking out pieces and trying to like patchwork
it together. And so I'm trying to think about like

(15:13):
the best direction from here. So I'm gonna go ahead
and move forward to after my mom dies. Three and
a half years later, I get a call within a
couple of weeks. Oh no, it was like that week,
within a week of her dying, from the wife of
the guy who was friends with the funeral director. I
don't even know why I took the call, but I

(15:35):
actually answered the phone. She's like, Hi, Naomi, I'm I
just wanted to call and tell you that we have
your father here. And then I literally responded and said, like,
you're having tea and she goes, no, like, we've had
his ashes so for three and a half years. This

(15:57):
is illegal. They had gone there, intercepted taking his ashes,
and it had them on a mantle at their basement
this whole time, and I'm like, okay, so I know,
am twenty five. I have no idea what the world
is or what life is. I've lost both parents, and

(16:19):
in between that, my ex husband had an affair decid
he didn't want to be buried anymore. So like in
three and a half years, I lost everybody, and I'm like,
I don't even I don't even know what to do
with this. I now have to bury both though, So
send me his ashes. There's no way in hell I'm
driving to you because I definitely don't want to see
your face anytime soon. But send me the ashes. They

(16:39):
wouldn't send them. I had to call the husband of
someone else to have him go over there and say
I need to pick up the ashes so I can
overnight them. It was this whole ridiculous thing. And then
just like out of a movie, I'm like driving home
and I like, have the ashes, Like I don't know,
buckled in because like I don't know, why not right?
Why not? Just feels good? And then combine them all

(17:03):
and they're all over me and then I'm carrying like
the bucket thing of them and the bottom falls out
and then I got all these ashes. It was this
whole like horror situation of just trying to get rid
of these ashes in some way that maybe is semi meaningful. Oh,

(17:25):
but like are they gonna like do they need to
be together? Because is that how God's gonna bring them back?
Is it kind of like Frosty the Snowman.

Speaker 4 (17:36):
Was that part of the thought, Like it wasn't so
much like h honoring in a funeral type way, but
like what should we do with these so that they
can come back the way they're supposed to do?

Speaker 2 (17:47):
It was a factor. I wasn't sure. So I was like,
you know, Frosty, I don't know. I have a seven
year old. So we watched Frosty a few months ago,
and it's like he melts and then there's this wind
and they are off, you know, like that, and so
I have no idea what I had no idea what
I was doing. This is just awful. So anyway, backing up,

(18:08):
that's how my dad passed. There was then like nothing
in between, Like people didn't really gather in the same way.
There were some people that would like do Bible studies
together and stuff. My mom believed though again like he
was going to be sending new converts to the group.
So people are making copies of his teaching. They're buying
all these message books, literal storage units, paying monthly to

(18:32):
house boxes and boxes of these books for all the
people that were going to come. And again no one
can move. No one can because apparently this God that
they were believing in wouldn't know where they went. I'm like,
how does this even make sense? So, and it was.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Only going to be that specific group, yes, that would
get to be with God and write everyone else is
going to hell. I'm guessing.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
There was.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
This is so this is so ecocentric what I'm about
to say. They also believed that those who were kind
towards us and were not judgy would probably get a
pass those who did not judge us for our beliefs.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
But then everyone else is burning.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Everyone else is Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
So you did believe that because you said you didn't
believe any of you would die that you would just
like walk into the kingdom hand in hand. So you
believe that the return of Jesus was imminent, like it
was gonna happen, Yes, in your lifetime.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yes, because my dad was likened to like the John
the Baptist figure who was preceding Jesus's final coming. But
I was also taught it was his third and final coming,
not the second, because William Brenham had actually been the second, okay,
and everyone had missed it. Everyone had denied it like
they denied it the first time. So yeah, it gets

(20:04):
really wonky. Wow, And then my mom's dead. I mean
that was so in between. She was counting on the
calendar because there was some numerology stuff that was woven
in there, just kind of like trying to read like
when the end times would be and when stuff was
gonna happen, and so that got mixed in. So she
literally like we had a paper calendar in the kitchen

(20:25):
and she just counted for three and a half years,
tackling the day, tallying the days. It'd be like say,
seven hundred and thirty six, seven hundred and thirty, and
she's like calculating, and they thought like well, it'll be
three days, or it'll be seven days, it'll be so
like we didn't have them cremated for seven days, like
we waited because we thought, well, we don't want to
burn them if he's gonna start breathing again. And similarly
with my mom when my mom died totally unmedicated, No,

(20:50):
we actually they they is in the county. I guess
it would have been started an investigation for elder abuse
against my brother and I because we hadn't gotten her
any care. She was so adamant though not to have
any And she did have the right to choose, And
I would say that now being like educated, I'm like,
she did have the right to choose, and so I

(21:12):
know that is what she chose, and she was lucid
and had the she had capacity to make that decision. Still,
so it was incredibly painful though we still didn't think
she would die, And I remember my brother and I
waiting like hours and hours after she had died, just
thinking what it like is this for real? Like did
this really happen? Like what do we do now? I mean,

(21:35):
so again, just no no for planning. No, there's just
we were just like kids basically, I know, twenty five
and twenty six may not sound that young, depending on
the age of whoever's listening to this, but we really
had no idea, and so they started they didn't fully investigate,

(21:57):
and they were just like, Okay, no, like these these
are young adults who really just have no idea what
they were supposed to do. And but that was the
point where I was I knew something was wrong with
what I had been raised in. Because when you're taught
that people can't die and then everybody dies, like you

(22:18):
can't just keep reconciling that, it gets to be really
really heavy. And so that was kind of those threads
that finally got pulled for me. But so the reason
I like went to that matt with the does everyone
call you Maddie? Like, am I not calling you the
right name? If I say Matty, Maddie to me sounds
like the family name, And I'm like, I don't know

(22:39):
if I'm supposed to call you that or not.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Like, I mean, it's hard for me coming back into
the family because you weren't called Maddie when I was there.
So I know, like that's on his Facebook and you.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Know, okay, and Maddie Maddie.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
But but I have a hard time remembering, like I
just call you Matt more than anything.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Okay, So I was like, am I about to call you?
Like what your friend? Like your family called you? And
you were so mad. That's why I went there with
the theology questions because it was it was like the
belief that mattered so much. But it was I mean,
it was a doomsday call. I mean it was all

(23:21):
end times. It was like again the numerology was all
trying to figure out like when everything was going to
burn up and all like fire and brimstone and like
no grace and compassion and all there's just it was
so an apocalyptic you know. It was just like had
all of those elements?

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Did he believe like in the Great Tribulation that that
was going to proceed the return of Jesus? Yes, okay, yeah,
that the concept of not dying like that is a
huge thing for me because for us, you know, we
were taught that Jesus was going to return in our

(23:58):
lifetimes and if you had the whole spirit, you know,
which you would get through baptism, when Jesus came back,
you would in the twinkling of an eye, you know,
turn into a spirit being and rise to meet him.
So I never processed the idea of death in mortality

(24:19):
right until I was like, wait, I mean in my
thirties is when I first like had the realization that
I am going to die, like that all human beings die,
that I'm not exempt from this thing, and it's such
a weird I just anybody that I've ever mentioned that

(24:40):
too that isn't hasn't been part of a group like this,
Like they just they can't even wrap their heads around it.
I'm curious for you. Did you have almost like a
crisis like I did, where You're like, I'm basically not immortal.
I'm I'm mortal. I'm going to die like everyone else.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, I mean it brought up a fear that I
hadn't had to deal with not only yes, other people
are going to continue to die, but yeah, I'm going
to die. And then working in a hospice, I saw
so many different ways to die, Like I definitely have
my preferences, yes, and I'm like, but I'm not going
to get to choose, like my body is going to

(25:21):
do what my body's going to do. So yeah, like
I've had to wrestle with that in a different way.
And it was actually just a few years ago that
I think I really started feeling some of that fear
for myself because it had been more focused on I'm
going to continue to lose other people, and so there
was sort of this delay and the emotionally hitting me

(25:41):
that it's going to be me too at some point. Yeah,
what about you? Have you thought about your demise day
every day?

Speaker 4 (25:53):
Come on, I'm ready.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Okay, So anymore about the theology? Where there are any other
important things to note?

Speaker 2 (26:03):
I think similarly to what you had said we were
gonna miss the tribulation is that we were in the
place of safety, okay, because we were as.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
God's chosen, we were gonna be in the rock caves.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Okay, So because we were gonna be raptured, so we
were gonna yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
We did not believe in the rapture in the way
that most did, and I don't.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Know if it was quite the way the most did. Again,
I just I didn't grow up with like that rapture
fear that I hear a lot of other people talk about,
or they're like, you know, I couldn't find mom at
the grocery store, and I thought she had been raptured.
So I didn't have that. And I don't know if
that was just the assurance of like being his kid
or something, but I didn't have that kind of fear.

(26:48):
I don't remember that being heavily teached. It could because
it was my dad talking, and I didn't listen to
a lot of what he said, to be honest. In
the Bible studies, they just zoned out. So I think
in some ways that was less impacted cognitively. Maybe it
was more heavily. He's not gonna die. I have to
have these holiness standards. Like I couldn't get my ears

(27:09):
piers because everything symbolized some every yes, yes, So I
got my ears pierced. Men, I didn't want to hear
the word of the Lord. Why why would it mean that?
Why would it mean that? What does that have to
do with anything? As my mom would say, what did
that have to do with the price of beans? So
like I had to be eighteen to get a piercing,

(27:30):
and then I went and got like twelve. Yeah, I
definitely couldn't have tattoos.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
The long hair.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
I had the really long uncut hair. Make oh gosh,
no makeup, the long skirts like below the knee, for sure.
It was just it was a lot. Yeah, we didn't
celebrate any holidays. Oh okay, I mean for the most part,
like there was that flippy floppy like you know, my
dad was in the charge of the whole thing, and
so for a while, you weren't supposed to have TVs.

(27:59):
And then he really missed TV because, like I said,
he largely lived like a hermit, so what is he
going to do all day? So we needed TV. So
then TV's were okay again. And Christmas was pagan Easter,
like everything was pagan apparently, so we were supposed to
do any of that. He loved. He loved Thanksgiving though,
because a man liked to eat. So we did celebrate Thanksgiving.
I swear that's the only reason is a man loved

(28:20):
a good, big meal. There was no rationality. It's not
like we prayed and gave thanks and all went around
the room and sad what we were thankful for. We
just ate a lot like that was it. And then
we didn't do birthdays. But then we did a little
bit like as teenager, like I think around five six ish,
I remember we'd have like a little cake and I'd
get a couple presents, and then we didn't do birthdays

(28:42):
for a long time, and then around thirteen ish we
would get to pick our restaurant that we wanted to
go to and we'd go to dinner. So there was
this like influx of kind of back and forth, which
can be kind of funny to reflect back on just
the ridiculousness of it. But when I think about what
children need to up feeling safe and secure, like we
need stability, we need predictability, and this was a highly

(29:06):
in every way, shape and form, unpredictable, unstable environment when
my dad was going to be around, and so I
see how that impacted me then as I got older.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, definitely feel a lot of that. That's so similar,
like the holidays, the symbolism, oh and then like you know,
the staples. I don't know if you guys thought that
it was like those are you know, phallic symbols, which
you know, like it was it was like, you know,

(29:41):
the Christmas tree was also an idol. We rented a
building that for church in Joplin, and during it was
a square dance hall and during the month of December
they had a Christmas tree upfront. And so like the
ministry put like a s sheet over it because like

(30:01):
Heaven forbid we look at it. You know, it's I
like it, right, I know I did secretly like Christmas trees,
but yeah, just all the all the symbolism, and it's
just like, oh, if a pagan person did this two
thousand years ago, we definitely can't go anywhere near that.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Right, which would eliminate like everything everything.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Well, I know, like it's Seventh day Adventist.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
They don't.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
At least a friend of mine was Seventh Day Adventist
and her mom didn't wear a wedding band. And I
don't know if that's everybody, but the circle like was
a pagan symbol somehow, like the closed circle. It was
just like okay, well like literally every shape then, like
you could find anything. So instead of a wedding ring,

(30:51):
she had a wedding watch, which I thought was hilarious.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Ring was yes, but it's like it has closure. Yes,
I can't write words with the letter oh, I can't
dial numbers with zero. It's like what do you do
with that?

Speaker 3 (31:08):
And I.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
But you got like seriously though, that is the like
picking and choosing that you see, it's like nothing follows
through to its natural conclusion. It's just oh no, it
starts and ends here like yeah, what, and so you
can't it teaches really poor thinking skills. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Something I was super thankful for was well one public school.

(31:35):
People can feel what they want to feel about public school.
For me and my life, it helped save my life
because I saw a different way of living and functioning,
and so that was really helpful. Though of course I
got bullied at certain ages because I look so different,
and I think that really awful. I would just emphasize
again that really awful view of women. I mean that's

(32:00):
deeply formative, and I'm grateful. I mean that's a public
school gratitude because I mean I saw something very different
and how everyone was treated equally, and I haven't. I
have not carried that forward. It hasn't been like a
big struggle for me to feel like I have value

(32:22):
that I don't have value because I'm a female out
to work through having value in other ways. But it
wasn't like I'm a woman and there for and I
really think it is because of that other exposure I had,
and so I'm really grateful for it. But that's certainly
not the case for everyone who comes out of those
situations where they're just so heavily indoctrinated that they're worthless.
And again, I know I talked about how my mom

(32:43):
had that awful self talk. I mean, it absolutely impacted her.
So I mean that is again, especially at such younger ages,
that's formational stuff, it is, and it just it makes
me sick. I mean, it's devastating, and it also makes
me like genuinely feel nauseous when I think of young
girls being raised in environments like that. And I've heard
from my brother and kind of talked with him a

(33:06):
little bit the impact on the young boys as well,
like how they're supposed to view things when they just
don't naturally, how they're supposed to perform, the weight and
pressure they can feel to be whatever they're supposed to be,
Like they don't get to just be who they are either,
And so just all of that beauty of growing up

(33:28):
and kind of discovering who you are, it's just it's
totally slashed. Yeah, So I don't want to make it
female specific. I know this was so awful for the
young men as well. My brother said to me though,
and I'm like, I'll receive that he said. I think
it was worse for you though, because you had the
female card as well, and I would agree with that.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
And also it's teaching boys what to think of women
and how to treat women, which is something that they
have to undo later, which is also not fair. Right,
It's just it's bad all the way around. Okay, I'm
sorry that you had to go through all of that.
That's just that's really hard. Your dad has passed, and

(34:15):
in that three and a half years between your dad
passing and your mom passing, you're still holding on yea
to your belief system. And do you feel like you always,
like truly believed all of that. Like I know you
mentioned you didn't always listen to your dad's lectures or
what he was trying to say, But did you really

(34:36):
internalize all of those beliefs and make them your own? No?

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Not fully. I always felt like I was sinning though
when I because I wasn't like I wasn't. My hair
was this length, I was wearing pants, I had piercings.
I gotta tell you know, I'm like I married outside
of the group, So I mean, all of that's going on.

(35:02):
I did go to college, my dad did ultimately sanction
that because I was going into a helping profession. So
it's like, I guess that's okay. Because when education wasn't
valued for males or females, like no one was really
supposed to focus on education. It was considered an idol.
And so so I had made a lot of different decisions,
but I never felt like I could just enjoy those decisions.

(35:24):
I always had that sense of guilt and that sense
of I'm probably gonna have to make this right somehow
at some point, and hopefully like in time, in time
for it to be okay. Because my dad did teach
that we would not join him on his coattails. It
wasn't like, oh, you're connected to me, so like you're
going to get a pass, Like, no, you have to decide,

(35:44):
and you have to An eighteen in our household was
very much a magic age. Like when you were eighteen,
you were like on your own, not like you couldn't
still be at home or something. But we're not responsible
for the decisions you make. You're responsible. You're a kidunt able,
You're gonna go eat your piercings, You're gonna do whatever.
Like I'm more hands off, which is really interesting. But

(36:08):
I was so indoctrinated at that point that I would
always call him still because I wanted it. If he
said it was okay, then I felt like, Okay, I
can actually do this and enjoy this. So it was
I remember when I wanted to travel abroad. I wanted
to study abroad in Australia, and I remember calling him
like getting his thumbs up on that because we weren't again,

(36:29):
we weren't supposed to really like move or leave or
and I wanted to travel internationally. I have done that
a bunch since, but like it's like, am I going
to be safe if I'm over there? And like the
world ends, Like am I going to be protected? And
so all of these things that I look back on
that were really incredible experiences that I'm so glad I
got to have, but I didn't get to have them
in the way that I should have gotten to have them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, it's always hanging over your head, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
So that's where I was at, like through hitting that
twenty eight where you mutually like where I say, that's
when it clicked for me that it was a cult
because I was still carrying all of that baggage with
me right forward, right.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
And you said earlier that you feel like the process
of maybe deconstructing some from your dad's belief system started
at age fourteen. Was there anything that happened at that
age or was it just the circumstances of being in
school and your life situation.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Fourteen was when I started like thinking, no one would
notice that my hair was creeping up my back because
I was trimming it. And I bought my first pair
of pants. They were from American Eagle, and they were
these khaki like I mean, not joggers out. What were
those pants where they were kind of like balloonish. I'm
not all the way back to like hammer time pants

(37:54):
like that, We're not going that far back. This was
in the eighties. This would have been like two thousand,
but and I still remember, like they were khaki and
they had these orange pool cords on them, and like
it's so significant, like like everyone remembers their first baar
of pants, Like this is a big deal. So like
go to school and change in the bathroom and then
change again before I went home, and but again I'd
feel guilty. But that's when I started kind of thinking,

(38:16):
is this really that big of a deal. And I
do remember the issue with like you're not supposed to
move and it's unsafe to travel, because I did remember thinking, well,
if God is God, like he should know where I am. Like,
this doesn't mentally connect for me, and so I did
have some points like that where I recognize this doesn't

(38:40):
make sense. But I had been taught again this difference
between my dad as a man versus my dad like
having God speaking through him, and so when something didn't reckoncil,
I was just like, oh, well, maybe that's the man part.
So like they had figured out a way to cover
everything to really keep somebody in it.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
Do you think you had maybe the two buckets because
I've kind of thought about it this way a little bit.
There was the teaching part, like this person says these things,
maybe maybe not what he says about himself.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah, like I had that.

Speaker 4 (39:14):
Do you think it was that way for you with
your dad, like the things he said about himself that
you were like, yes, that for sure.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, I haven't thought about it that way. Yeah, things
he said about himself, And I'm trying to think if
it would include things I think it would include things
he said about God. But there was a difference between
when it seemed like it was just his his preference
or his thought or his There was a difference in

(39:42):
that because like scripture wouldn't be used or you know,
that was different. So like if he said, you know,
God says or thus saith the Lord kind of talk,
I mean that I would believe was true too. But
if he's like, well, we can't travel because this could happen,
it's like, well, I think that might just kind of
be your opinion. This isn't like an say it the
Lord moment.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah yeah, but if.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
He said, like yeah, like if he says that and
you're like, yeah, maybe maybe that's just your personal preference.
But then he says, you know, I'm going to come
back in a young body with that type of stuff
where you're like yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely that is what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Yeah, I'm just trying to imagine, like you're looking for
a young man like that's gonna say I'm your dad,
Like how do you vet this? And is that what
you were expecting?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yes? Yeah, yeah absolutely. I thought at some point, who's
going to walk up and reintroduce himself. I just had
this thought though, you guys I wonder if that at
all was a factor, and what made it seem right
for him to marry seventeen year olds was he was
going to be eighteen again. Oh that's and I wonder
if that would have been a factor at all.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
Which one do you think came first?

Speaker 2 (40:54):
I'm not right. I mean he would have wanted the
seventeen year olds first for sure. That deesire have been
there for a long time, So I don't know. I
don't remember that being like specifically stated, but I could
see that being a connecting point different ways that people
rationalize things within themselves. Here's why I say it. Yeah,

(41:17):
so he would cry at times, like literal, like I mean, genuinely,
like he was emotionally moved. He had like that sort
of I would say, classic artist type personality when it
came to emotions. I don't and I hope I'm not saying.
I don't mean that like some bad stereotypical but like
just feeling deeply, like being a deep feeler and expressing

(41:40):
that like he would express it in different ways, including abuse,
but of course that's not the case for artists in general.
But just like him again, being that deep feeler and
having different ways of expression, like doing it through singing,
doing it through playing an instrument, doing it through writing poetry.
And so he would have these moments or happening, like

(42:01):
quite a few times throughout my ability to remember before
he died, of talking about how he just really wanted kids,
and he would cry like he was so deeply moved.
This was not fake. This was a genuine depth of
emotion that was coming to the surface of how he
just always wanted children. He just really wanted children, and

(42:24):
he's just but it wasn't like an I'm so grateful
for all of you. It was like this, I really
just want I really wanted children. I never really knew
what to do with that for a really long time.
And I would say, at this point in my healing
and processing and education and kind of putting all that together,
I think there was a deep part of him that

(42:45):
knew he had done wrong. Because again, it wasn't it
wasn't an emotional like emotional gratitude or joy of because
he had sixteen children. I mean, he had gotten the children,
but it was heartache like there was And this literally
even happened on my wedding day. He spoke of this

(43:08):
like there was like I remember I did the whole.
This is a little embarrassing now, but the whole like
white carriage coming down like Cinderella moment. And so we're
like at the parking lot next door to the venue
because we're gonna come down because we got married outside.
And it was a big deal that I was even
legally getting married and he was gonna be I didn't
know when I asked him, like if he would say yes,
because we didn't do legal marriages, but of course it

(43:30):
was symbolic, something about the bride and the groom, and
like the groom's coming soon for the bride, and so
Jesus was going to be coming soon because his daughter
was getting I don't know. So he's crying though, and
he's having again this obvious, genuine emotion. And I remember
never almost like we talked about something just feel off.
This felt oft in a different way, often a like

(43:50):
I don't get this, like I don't understand what's happening here,
like you have all these children, and so again I
think it speaks too. He knew on some level, you know,
the hoops that he had jumped through and the harm
that he had caused, and that he had abused these
children that he so badly wanted, and so I think

(44:12):
I saw a glimpse of some recognition. There no apology,
though I did get an apology from him once I
was seventeen and I was fed up, and I told
something had happened. He had blown up or something, and
I told my mom, I'm like, I'm gonna go in there,
and I don't know if i'll see you again after
this happens. But I went in and I knocked on

(44:33):
his door and went into his bedroom, which was a
terrifying thing to do, and told him, you don't deserve
to be called dad, Like you haven't been one, you failed,
like you haven't shown up, you haven't been here for us.
You've done this, you've done that. And he would always
like pick at his fingernails when he got nervous, so
he's like sitting there picking at his fingernails. And then

(44:55):
he apologized, he said, and he sorry. And our relationship
did improve between seventeen and twenty one. When he died
when I was twenty one, it did improve. It wasn't great,
but it did improve. But that is so far from
the apology that was owed to not only me, but

(45:17):
to countless other people. And so I don't say that
as in, oh my gosh, like this is vindicated, this
is or this is all forgiven, or this is no.
I just think it shows again that he wasn't totally
indoctrinated by himself, like he hadn't totally convinced himself. I
think he did know some things, And to be honest
with you, I think it makes it worse.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah, did you ever feel like, or at least since
you've been out of this and can look back on
it all, did you ever think that he had mental
illness or a personality disorder or something that would help
explain some of these behaviors.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yes, I think there was a personality disorder. I don't
think I don't think there's a diagnosis though that can
make right the fact that he had these sexual these

(46:23):
deviant sexual desires that he then made that he then
made it okay. So I think that there's a personality
disorder that could help make sense of some things. But
I would be what I hear sometimes, and I know
you're not saying this, Actually what I hear sometimes, like
just in the world at large, is the personality disorder

(46:45):
con seemingly like make it okay, and there isn't anything
that would make it okay, right of course, Yeah, I
think for us, at least for me, it helps on
some level. Does not excuse any of the behavior or abuse,
but it helps on some level for me to know

(47:06):
that our dad is a malignant narcissist. And the reason
why is because it I think for so long I
thought I was unlovable, you know what I mean, that
I was not worthy because he couldn't he was so
easily able to discard me and then the rest of

(47:30):
the family. And knowing that, okay, there is something else
going on, like this is a person who never actually
fully connected with me, never actually loved me.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
I don't even know that he's capable of that. There,
that was somewhat healing, I guess for me. It's still
very sad, you know, but it's like, no, this has
nothing to do with me at all. And so that,
to me was the value in being able to identify that.

(48:09):
And it also explains how he could just like my
mom could leave and he could just never like try
to get her back or talk to her or how
you know, Matt, you reached out and he just had
questions about the sound system. You know it because it's
just mind blowing when you have normal like empathy for

(48:34):
others and then when you realize, oh, there's something else
greater here going on.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
It just helped at least help me. Yeah. Yeah, and
I I think I might just I know, we don't
diagnose our own for reasons. Well, but I'm saying that
as in I don't feel like I can. Yeah, Like
I really there's times where like I can think about
people my family, I'm like, I know I'm not supposed

(49:01):
to officially diagnosed because I know this person, but they
definitely like have this or that. Yeah, his is such
a it's such a mess that I really don't feel
like I can, Like I really just it's overwhelming for
me to think about. And I'm like, I just don't
even know. I don't even know what to do with
it all because I am a big but I'm a
firm believer and supporter of the DSM and in how

(49:24):
this helps. I think it also helps with medication support
that can be useful and so totally fan and support.
But yeah, when I look at him, like, I just
I don't know what to do with all of that, right,
it seems so messy, and I know he loved the control.

(49:44):
He wasn't big on attention, but he definitely loved the control.
And it wasn't about money. It was about power in
order to have sex. I mean that's that's really was
the end goal, was the power to and I think
be taking care of Engen. I mean he literally didn't
have to fill his own water glass, so you know.

(50:05):
I mean that of course, was a caushy lifestyle for him.
His work was I don't know, dealing with gossipy people
trying to get his attention. And I don't know why
he would have won wanted to do what he was doing.
I mean, he must have really valued what he got
out of it because there was so much drama. It
was just incessant drama.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Was he getting tides?

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yes? Yeah, And we actually that was do you guys
ever do money hunts when you were a kid? Was
that a thing? My brother and I would be like,
we're gonna go on a money home. We'd like look
for change in the couch and like my mom's can't
pocket back. Yeah, So he called it a money hud, like, oh,
we're gonna And my brother was such a jerk because
he would always spend all of his money and I
would save it and he'd be like, and he's a

(50:46):
year and a half older. Then he'd be like, Ohnomi,
let's put our money together and split it. And I did.
So he's now a partner in a law firm and
I'm a nonprofit founder. So I was like, hey, I
have an idea.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Yeah, he's like, no, h he used to think was
a good idea.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
I was like, payback, so we would. So when my
dad passed away, we went to clean out his room
and there was just money hidden everywhere, Like you would
literally have to pick up a book and like flip
through the book because envelopes of cash would just be
falling out of the pages. We found over one hundred
thousand dollars hidden in his bedroom. Oh my goodness. We
didn't keep it because it didn't feel ethical, so it

(51:24):
was put into an account for like other people and.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
But I know it isn't that said. I'm like, we
should have like kept like one envelope. You deserved every dollar,
Oh my goodness. So yeah, so that was the tithe money.
So he really was a frugal person, Like he didn't
dressed great he got used cars. He yeah, he didn't,

(51:50):
you know, he had like his he loved record so
we had like some old record. But like he wasn't
like a big spender. Like this wasn't a group where
people were like living the high life financially. It really
was a gosh, I haven't like said it this way before,
but I mean, at least when it came to in
one direction, it was it was a version of a

(52:10):
sex cult, is I think what I'd have to call it. Yeah,
not like we might think of like naxium or something.
It's different. Yeah, but I can't help but see that
as like really the focus because even the power, control
and influence was ultimately to get young women.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yeah, all of it. The scripture was weaponized so that
he could marry as many women as he wanted, is
what it sounds like. Yeah, this is I think. I
I think, not knowing the whole story, I came into
this expecting to hear about someone who was like very

(52:45):
obviously like a malignant narcissist, And there's so many interesting
differences but also similarities. It's just fascinating how people can
rational like reason, and.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
I think he did have a belief in God that
he was trying to recon like kind of work through
for himself. Yeah, and so he needed it in his
mind to be okay with God that he was doing
what he was doing.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Yeah. So in that period of time between your father
passing and then your mom passing, like we said, you
were still hanging on to it when your mom passed.
Was that just I mean, what was that like? So
like an absolute crisis for you in every sense of

(53:38):
the word. I'm guessing yes, yes, it was an absolute crisis.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
And the timing of it, I mean not like there's
good timing for a parent to die who's never supposed
to but and especially she was, I mean, she was
a center of my world. So I and I recognize
now you know, she didn't protect me and there were
fails there. So I at that time and still like
I still like just feel that pain of like I

(54:04):
wish she was here, and yet if she were, what
would it even look like? But I was so my
dad had died, like I mentioned before, that last semester
of undergrad and then I was going to this is
so unfortunate. I got into the top school in the
country for my master's story and they'd give me a
fifty percent scholarship and so move there start the program.

(54:27):
Two weeks in like total breakdown, like I cannot function.
And they even asked like if I needed more money,
and I was like, I just can't do this. And
so I then go back to school. Three years later,
I'm doing a one year advanced standing Master's program. Three
months into it, my mom dies and I was just
like I can't let this stop me again. Yeah, And

(54:49):
so I did finish the program. I was so focused
on the program though that I mean I got like
it was a three nine three for my GPA for
that program, which I think just speaks to like I
was fully focused, Like I did not grieve, like I
just was like I'm finishing this degree program. So I
finished the program, I graduate, and then that summer I'm

(55:11):
like I just have to get out of here, like
I just can't be. I knew that I couldn't like
run away from the inner turmoil, but I'm like, I've
got to have a change in scenery. I can't just
be driving around this area anymore. Felt like I was suffocating,
like I could not breathe there. So ultimately ended up
landing in Colorado. That's when I started to feel it,

(55:35):
because I mean, and I mean feel all of the years,
like twenty six years of it, because I didn't know anyone,
Like I literally arrived with what fit in my prius,
which is not a lot in a prius. They got
good trunks, but like I'm sleeping in my car for
a while, I'm a master's degree person, like just sleeping
in my car, CouchSurfing in mountain towns, and like I

(55:58):
don't know what to do with myself like a part
time job. And then ultimately got a drop in my field,
which was great, but was really struggling with intentive purpose,
Like how do I like, I couldn't I couldn't be dependable.
I couldn't gather up that internal like motivation and ability
to like accomplish anything and see anything through so lots

(56:18):
of common things that we're going to see. Of course,
for someone who's experienced like multiple forms of trauma pre
eighteen after eighteen, as I was, I mean, I was
a mess. I was falling apart. I remember that I
would sit in my room for hours just staring at
the wall, waiting for the anxiety to subside enough to
be able to like stand up and I was seeking

(56:40):
out grief counseling. That was what I knew at that time,
because again I didn't I hadn't blown up the whole
belief system yet. Yeah, so I was seeking grief counseling,
but I wasn't telling them at all, Like I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
How complex it actually was.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
No, I left the whole cult thing out of it
and was just trying to focus on a parent has died.
That was a way over simplification. So it wasn't super
effective for that reason. And that was like the lid
coming off of just all of the emotional stuff. Very

(57:14):
much wanted to unalive myself for a while, but I
had this sense within myself of if I allow myself
to feel these things though, and I allow myself to
like turn toward all of this stuff in some of
the language I'm using now, I didn't have that, And
of course, but like if I allow myself to turn
towards this, I'm not gonna it's not gonna be like

(57:36):
this forever. And so I just knew that, And I
think some of that probably came through the educational path
I had taken. And I do identify as a Christian now,
and so I do believe. For me, I would say
that was also I believe that to be like the
actual presence of God in my life. Like that goodness,

(57:57):
that kindness, that loving, that like to be with I
just felt very held. At the same time, during that time,
I didn't feel like I was just really totally on
my own, and so I made I mean, I made
a ton of decisions that I probably would not have made,
but like everything worked out okay. Again as far as

(58:18):
like some job stuff and some guy stuff. A d
had some really bad guys for me, Like it just
did not go well, had some more hurt from that,
of course, and ultimately though landed, ultimately landed getting a
second degree. I ended up going to Denver Seminary and

(58:40):
got a second master's from there, and that really helped
me do that disentangling to figure out because what I
love about that program so much, and I'm not trying
to advertise their program, but what I loved about that
program so much, what it was very it was very
much like here's how you ask good questions, and like
here's how you critically think, and here's how you research,

(59:01):
and then you land where you land. And so I
had never had that those tools first of all, and
also that flexibility and that openness to make my own
choices when it came to faith right, and so I
could wonder about anything, could wonder about something that would
be considered orthodox. I could wonder, like I got to
actually do that, and that really started to head me

(59:25):
in a direction of safety even within myself, is how
I would put it, because it's like, well, now I'm
equipped to be able to question and be able to
critically think and to make decisions. Boundaries are good. I
can actually have those. Here's what they look like, you know,
all of that stuff that's so vital to just like

(59:47):
building our lives. And I'm like, Okay, I can learn
all of these things. And so I don't have to
be so afraid of everybody anymore, because I had been
taught this such a strong US versus them that I
was just afraid of everyone, and that really in the
way of healing, because who do I have as a therapist,
Who do I have as mentors or friends that I

(01:00:08):
can call? I mean, no one had been a part
of what I was a part of, and so they
were never fully in. I could never fully let anyone
in because they weren't the same, and that really affected
attachment of course as well. Like it just like continued
that forward of like I can be friends with you,
but I can't like fully connect with you. That would

(01:00:28):
be taking it too far. And so that carried into
me seeking professional help too, is like, well can I
totally trust can I? So again this really started to
open up my mind and then the rest of me
to be able to like fully explore what do I think,
what do I believe? Why, what is healthy? What's not? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
So did you believe before this that mental health care
was not something that you would seek out? Because if
you wouldn't seek out medical care, I would assume it
would be the same for counseling or therapy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Interestingly, I was super like sold out in a good
way for mental health care. And again I think it's
because of the degree path I had taken some I mean,
I was being trained to be a therapist, you know,
to be a licensed clinical social worker. So that's the
direction I was heading. So no, I really was like
all for that. I was all for like support, and

(01:01:29):
I was all for yeah, seeking those out. I also
wasn't against medical care personally, right, And I think seeing
what my parents went through. I was like, that was awful. Yeah,
absolutely not. So before I realized I was in a cult,
I was already heading towards working in hospice, like I
really supported like and I saw the dignity you can

(01:01:51):
provide to someone at the end of their life and
just had such a high value for that, and sausage
just like beauty in dying. Well whatever that may look
first looked like for someone in their wishes, and so
it was just such an honor to be a part
of that for the period of time that I was,
and I really miss it in ways. But so I

(01:02:12):
wasn't in agreement with everything, and interestingly enough, I give
I wish I could find if they're still living, like
the teachers who started this program. But I was in
a program starting in It was first through sixth grade.
And when you think about, like what's happening like with
your brain forming during those years, like important years. So

(01:02:34):
I was in this program. It's called Alpha. Cannot remember
what it stands for. But it was four kids I
guess who I don't know who were doing well. I'm like, like,
I'm smart. No, I'm not trying to say that, but
it was four kids where it's like they wanted to
give some extra challenge in addition to the standard programming.

(01:02:56):
So we got pulled aside multiple times a week and
we got to do these We really focused on critical
thinking skills, Like that was the point of the whole thing.
I swear if I had not done that, I could
be like all of the other people I know who
came out of this group, who like, I really feel
like again, during such big important years of my brain development,

(01:03:20):
like I was learning brainstorming and questions and all this
critical thinking and like doing and hating to like invent
things and create prototypes and do all these like those
like mind twister games of like how did the frog
get out of the pot with the milk? You know,
Like we were doing all of that stuff, and that
served me I think along the way again where I

(01:03:42):
didn't just agree with everything, at least internally. Yeah, and
then it really hit I think during some of the
years we're talking about now.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
So when you did seek out therapy, you felt fully
comfortable with that, with the exception of is there anybody
that I can find a connect with that will actually
understand this.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
And not just look at me like I'm fascinating. That
was the hardest part. That was really hard. I even
found a couple of people who were like religious trauma specialist,
and they looked at me like I was a fascinating
case study, Like I did not have a good experience,
And so that caused further problems and definitely got in
the way because no one really was getting it where

(01:04:27):
they could come alongside me. So what I did then
at that time, this would be like as early as
like ten years ago, what I did was I started
leaving out the specifics for how I got where I
was and I just talked about where I was, because
then there wasn't that to kind of distract people. Now,

(01:04:47):
obviously I did not find the best clinicians, Like good clinicians,
that's not going to happen, and they absolutely exist. I
unfortunately just wasn't finding them. Yeah, and so I just
started leaving it out. Instead of talking about why I
was star with depersonalization, I would just talk about how
I was struggling with depersonalization and get help with that.
And that did serve me well. So I'm glad I

(01:05:07):
was able to kind of figure out a work around. Yeah,
I'm really hopeful that people can find someone who can
really hear their story and again not be Just remember
it's not a Netflix documentary, right. It might be in
the future, but it's not right now. It's like a
real person who has really suffered.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Yeah. Absolutely, So that kind of brings me to what
you're doing now. So do you want to talk about
what you're doing with your nonprofit in how you're helping
other people who have experienced high control groups and religion.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
Yeah. I it was when I actually first came out
with my story. I was genuinely like coming forward with
my story. There were people in my life that I
had baby photos with but weren't in the group, like
extended family of friends or whatever, who did not know

(01:06:06):
so much of what I was going to start sharing.
And so there were people I'm like, I need to
call them first. This is like so not the way
for them to find out about this. There were also
some people in the group still where I'm like, I
love them, like I have love for them, and I
wanted them to know that I was going to be
doing this. I just for me personally, is just such
a personal choice. I felt like for key people I

(01:06:28):
wanted to do that, not for everybody couldn't care less
about something, to be honest, But I hope they get out,
but I don't know that we would ever be best.
He's right, So yeah, so I just felt it just
felt like it was time. It felt like, Okay, I
just need to share again in my worldview of like
what God's done in my life, because I don't see

(01:06:50):
God in any of that. I see God in the
in the coming out and the moving forward, and I
see my dad as being a real bad person who
did really bad things. So with that being said, it
was just it's just like, I think it's just time.
I didn't feel like I had to, didn't feel like
it was nothing like. That was just like I think
it's just time to share. I also was kind of

(01:07:11):
tired of feeling like I was the only one, Like
I knew intellectually, like there was no way I was
the only one, but I felt like the only one
because I didn't know anybody else. And I continued to
live in this like duplicitous way like I did going
to public school, but I was in a polygamist doomsday call.
I continue to kind of live that way all the
way through again. Friends from forever who didn't even know

(01:07:32):
most of this stuff, and the weight of that was
just crushing me. It was so exhausting. It's so it's
like I could feel like the wear and tear on
like my nervous system, Like I could tell I actually
had a tia when I was twenty six, which is
like yeah, and I'm like I can see why. So
with all that being said, I'm like, Okay, I'm going

(01:07:54):
to create a video put it on YouTube. Wanted it
to be really well done. Thing I saw that was
supporting people like coming out of cults and stuff just
looked very mom and pop and from my perspective, they
looked culty like. It just looked sketch. So I was like,
I want this to be done really well. So we
invested a lot, had a crew fly out, like did

(01:08:15):
this whole video recording, decided to start it as a nonprofit,
which felt really silly at the time because I'm like,
what am I doing, Like, I'm what writing some semi
poor blog posts. I'm like, like what am I doing?
I'm really just like telling my story right now. I
was very present in that process. I needed to be,

(01:08:37):
because again I was really telling my story, and so
that was terrifying. Definitely had some like trauma stuff come
up related to that. But as I moved through that process,
I just started to have just like so much vision
for this organization and like the services we could provide,
and as people were connecting with us, seeing what their
needs were and recognizing, wow, I'm a licensed mental health professional.

(01:09:02):
And while not everyone who comes to us necessarily came
from like a Christian spinoff, I would say that's like
ninety five percent of the people who do. As I'm like, well,
having this seminary excuse me, having the seminary education, pulling
that together, that's helpful. Like when someone's like, oh, well,

(01:09:23):
this is the Bible says this, and this person who
says like, well, it actually doesn't say that, and here's
here I could like you can look, you decide, here's
what they're talking about. You read that chapter, like what
do you think? And so just recognizing how helpful that
was and how people need it, and so we just
started adding services. So we added what we call one
on one mentoring. And that's because we serve internationally as well,

(01:09:47):
Like it's not just within the United States, but we're
crossing state lines, so we have legal things that we
have to stick to with you know, within that because
we are licensed, so there's things we can and cannot do,
so we call it mentoring. For that reason, we're not
able to fully do therapy unless they are in our state,
which does happen. So offering that we've written programs and

(01:10:07):
record these amazing digital courses. I love how they turn
out because I was very adamant that it's not just
like me talking to a camera. We have in each one,
we have three other real life survivors who are at
a healthy place to be able to sit and share
and so there's you know, candid conversation happening, real engagement
that people get to connect with different people and like
find their own voice, you know, like connect these elements

(01:10:29):
of their story. And we have a monthly group where
people virtually gathered, it's facilitated, so it's you know, when
we think about healing from trauma, there's a few things
that are needed for that, and one is to one,
we have to be able to process and share, and
we also need to be able to have a corrective experience,
which is like contrary to what we experienced before, and

(01:10:50):
that's really hard to go get because we want to isolate.
We want to keep ourselves safe, and so creating different
opportunities for people to have really low risk in re
engaging and being able to process and cheer where we're
maintaining the safety because it is facilitated by someone who's
qualified to do so, and so like just being able

(01:11:12):
like doing this over the course of it'll be five
years this summer since like inception, like we actually started,
but probably about three and a half years to yeah,
probably about three and a half to four years since
we really started adding services and just seeing the impact
is insane and seeing the prevalence is crazy, Like it

(01:11:32):
is massive because we're not coming alongside cult specific it's
spiritual abuse in general like mainstream churches, Like this is
you know, the whole spectrum and it's such a massive problem.
And something else I love about the approach of being Bolden,
which is the name of the organization, is that someone

(01:11:53):
doesn't have to be Christian and we're not trying to
make them be something either. So we have people of
veering world views who come and who are engaging because
and we ask permission like do you want to use
the Bible? Like do you want like do you want
to do you not want to and re respect that
and sometimes people stick to that the whole way through.
Sometimes they get curious about something. It's like it's totally

(01:12:14):
up to them. What I find really important in the
work that I do and when it comes to using
the Bible, is that I think it's really important for
the accountability to be placed where it goes, because one,
I don't want the leader getting off the hook. I don't.
And I also don't want someone to think that it

(01:12:37):
wasn't that person because I'm afraid they'll be revictimized. Like
prevention of revictimization for me is like a number one priority,
And so I want people to be equipped to start
to recognize what that person did versus writing it off
as just like this entity or something. Is like no, like,
we have people who are doing really bad things and

(01:12:57):
we do need to again, like how can we The
abuse is always always the abuser's fault, always, Yeah. I've
also learned some things about how abusers work that have
helped me not find another one or not to have
a relationship with another one.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
Right yeah, And I'm guessing helping people recognize what in
them is drawing them to these abusive relationships too. It
would be an important aspect, right, Like you're just gonna
end up in the same situation with just a different person.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Yeah. Yeah. I think of it as like recognizing we
all have vulnerabilities and those can change strat our lives.
We also might have one that sticks, But what are
my vulnerabilities? Like a vulnerability I have is someone who's
like motherly and I'm like, I've had to be cautious
with that because I've had women try to just like
boss me around, even though you know, after twenty five

(01:13:55):
be like, oh, I want to be your mom, like
I'll tell you what to do, and then there's all
these rules and all these like why didn't you call
me or what? You know what I mean, I'm like, Okay,
this is a vulnerability of mine, is that I miss
that like motherly presence in my life. Totally fair, but
I want to make sure that I don't that I'm
cautious in how I get that need met so that

(01:14:17):
I'm safe along the way. So that'd be an example.
So we're all going to have vulnerabilities. College students massively,
that's a really big issue that we see as groups
intentionally targeting college campuses because college ses are off on
their own for the first time. They're figuring out like
who are my people? What do I believe? How am
I going to structure my day? Like? They're learning all

(01:14:40):
these new things, and so that is a vulnerable time
that unfortunately, awful people can try to capitalize on. So
we do you know some prevention work in that regard
to I think that if it's not already, that should
be on college campuses, like resources for that, for in

(01:15:01):
warnings for kids. We have three kids in college and
it's scary because they are looking for community, especially if
they're going to college away from home. They need it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Yeah, thankfully our kids found you know, groups and clubs
that are like university you know university clubs and groups
like knitting. My daughter like was part of a knitting group.
But but yeah, it is it is very scary, and

(01:15:36):
I know they have some kind of crazy people on
campus who are out there, like in the courtyards sometimes
trying to to doctrinate or a kid. Thankfully, they just
think it's kind of funny and they move on. But
you know, the more insidious groups they have kind of

(01:15:56):
this whole plan step by step to draw people in
and that's so scary. Yeah, stuff I worry about because
I feel like there's no one that's totally immune. I agree, Yeah,
I mean the circumstances can be, right, I feel like
for anyone, and.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
The groups can be so different, like in their approach,
Like there's one where they like personality profile you through
an interaction and if you're you seem like a certain
kind of personality, then they'll target. It's not actually like
trained to do this, like it's totally intentional. Yeah, And
so approaches can be so there's commonalities in these situations,

(01:16:39):
but again, approach can be different, so it doesn't necessarily
look like what you think it's going to. That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
Yeah, So do you have availability now? If people listening
to this wanted to reach out and be part of
like the mentoring program or any of the groups or
even one on one counseling or mentoring, do you are
you available for that?

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Yeah? So we have a team. So it's not just me,
and I will say I typically try to take anyone
who is maybe closer to my story, just because usually
that's why people are reaching out. If they're like, no,
I really resonate with your story, can I please meet
with you, even if there's a bit of a waight, Like,
I absolutely honor that. We do have a couple other

(01:17:22):
women on our team who are absolutely incredible, and we
also have the like I said, the digital programs and
the monthly gatherings virtually and things like that too. We
have our first conference coming up this fall in Tennessee.
So the variety of options too, depending on what is
the best fit for someone. Sometimes people are like, I
absolutely want one on one, like that feels the safest,

(01:17:43):
and I also feel like that's what I need. Some
feel like one on one just feels too intimate, and
so they're like, uh, like, maybe I just want to
do a digital course, like I just want to watch
the content on my own, get familiar with the people
who are involved, and you know. So that's a big
reason why we created these very entry points for someone
to get connected and get services, is because different people

(01:18:04):
are going to feel more comfortable, and we want it
to be We just want people to feel like they can.
I recognize how big of a step it is to
reach out. I know what it was for me, and
so I really want to honor that for someone also
happy to have initial consultations with people just to help
them decide what is the best fit if they're unsure.

(01:18:26):
And a few things that I say to someone anytime
we connect and we're going to have services is one,
you have a sense of agency. You have the right
and the ability, and you should to make decisions, to
make choices, to have likes and dislikes and have opinions,
and like, I want to empower that. And also I

(01:18:47):
have no authority over you. Now I understand that perception
can still be there and so we have to be
careful of it. But just starting right from the get go,
like I do not have authority over you. Like I
am who you hired to come alongside you, and I
just ask that i'm treated with respect as well. But

(01:19:07):
you're not hiring me to tell you what to do.
You're not hiring me to know all of the things.
That's not what I'm here for. I'm here to come
alongside you. And so yeah, I just like to make
that clear from the beginning, like I am not in
a position of control of authority. And again we then
have to live that out of course, but just setting
that framework for people from the very beginning, that's so important.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
Just because when you are coming from high control religion
or groups, I think that your idea of like the
authority figure bleeds out into other areas of life, whether
it be therapists or medical doctors or anyone that's deemed

(01:19:52):
in a like higher position of authority. And so I
could see why you would need to kind of set
that foundation at the very beginning.

Speaker 4 (01:20:08):
Thanks so much to Naomi for making the trip and
joining us in studio, and Ventonville really appreciative of her
time and her openness and telling a really difficult story.
So you're going to hear from her one more time
next week. It's going to be a really good one,
I think, so I hope that all of you can
tune in for that. If you like this episode, please

(01:20:28):
go leave us a five star rating and review wherever
that is, if it's Apple, Spotify or another service. It's
really helpful. And don't forget to subscribe so that you
can get notified to when we have new episodes and
updates and things like that. Thanks, and we'll talk to
you all again next week