Ep.46: Christian Nationalism w/ Dr. Laura E. Anderson

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Season 3, Episode 2: Christian Nationalism and Religious Trauma with Dr. Laura E. Anderson In this powerful episode of The Cult Next Door Podcast, hosts Mattie Lasiter and Ashleigh Teeter sit down with Dr. Laura E. Anderson, a licensed psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach, and founder of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Dr. Anderson specializes in religious trauma, adverse religious experiences, and the impact of high-control systems.

She’s also the author of When Religion Hurts You: Healing From Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion. Together, they explore the unsettling rise of Christian Nationalism and its impact, particularly on survivors of high-control religion. Dr. Anderson shares her insights into why this political and religious ideology can feel especially triggering, evoking feelings of fear, grief, and loss of autonomy for those with lived experiences of coercion and authoritarianism.

Highlights of the conversation include: Understanding what Christian Nationalism is and how it differs from other religious and political expressions. Exploring why this ideology feels particularly devastating to survivors of religious trauma. Discussing the "us vs. them" mentality central to high-control religion and its political implications. Strategies for coping with feelings of helplessness, including finding "glimmers" of hope amidst overwhelming fear. The critical role mental health professionals play in helping people navigate the intersection of trauma and political fear.

This is a must-listen for anyone grappling with the emotional fallout of the recent election or seeking to understand the deep psychological effects of high-control religion and Christian Nationalism.

Find Dr. Laura Anderson at: Website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Instagram: @drlauraeanderson Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with anyone who may find it helpful. Your support helps us continue amplifying voices and stories that matter.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert
w Armstrong.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I am here to bring you the truth.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
He's speaking through me the Lord.

Speaker 4 (00:20):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber. That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hello and welcome back to the Cult next Door Podcast.
I am your co host Maddy Lassiter with my sister
Ashley Teeter. As always, first off, before we intro the
episode that you're about to listen to, a reminder follow
us on all of our socials where all the cool
kids are. And then I also want to do a
double portion club shout out or two. So we've got

(01:00):
Chase and Shanda OG's thank you guys. We've got David
Brown again. I always like to shout out David. He
was on the podcast.

Speaker 5 (01:08):
He's a good dude.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
And then a new one, Heather Bartlett. Thank you guys
so much for supporting the podcast. It means a lot
to the both of us and to our whole community here.
If our podcast really resonates with you and you want
to support it. We've got our Patreon as previously mentioned,
where you can join and be a Double Portion club member,

(01:29):
or you can just do our regular tier. I think
it's five bucks a month and you get some ad
free episodes stuff like that, and it just kind of
helps us keep the podcast going, pay for flights for
guests and hotels and gear and things like that as
it comes up. All right, so this week I want
everybody to buckle up. Is just a warning to all.

(01:50):
We had doctor Laura E. Anderson on again. We had
her on last season. I think it was She's wonderful.
We had her on again this time. We're talking a
little bit about Trump, a little bit about Project twenty
twenty five, and mostly about Christian nationalism kind of what
that is and what it's doing in America right now.

(02:11):
This is not a debate about politics or policy. It's
more about how high control tactics, manipulative leadership, authoritarian tendencies
can deeply impact individuals and communities, especially when they're cloaked
in religion or ideology, which we know a little bit about.
For survivors of cults or high control groups like Ashley

(02:32):
and I, and I know a lot of our listeners
as well, these patterns are particularly triggering because they mirror
environments that we fought very hard to escape from, and
for a lot of us, the prospect of another Trump term,
combined with the goals outlined in Project twenty twenty five,
along with the rise of Christian nationalism, is genuinely terrifying.

(02:53):
And I hope through this you'll kind of get an
idea of why that is. If you don't already know,
you know this conversation is going to make some people
uncomfortable or offended or both. And if that's the case,
I would just ask you to take a beat and
reflect on why that is. Why are so many people,
including those with firsthand experience of manipulation and control, raising

(03:17):
an alarm about these things? And this is not about
picking sides, It's about recognizing harmful dynamics and understanding the
real life consequences of unchecked power. So with that said,
we hope that you'll approach this episode with curiosity and
an open mind as best she can. Our goal is
to encourage thoughtful reflection with this, not to create division.

Speaker 5 (03:42):
Yeah, and I just want to be clear that our
intention is not to alienate anyone or dismiss differing perspectives. Instead,
I think our goal is to provide a compassionate which
is very key and on a space to explore some

(04:02):
of these complex issues. I mean, that's why we're here.
If you've ever felt hurt, silenced, or trapped by the
blending of religion and politics, this episode is for you.
And also we talk about this a little bit with
doctor Anderson. I've noticed that there isn't a lot of

(04:24):
understanding right now in this political climate between you know,
differing views and opinions. And I've you know, I've seen
people who are joyful and happy about the outcome and
how things are going, and then I've seen people who
have been who felt really devastated and grief stricken, honestly,

(04:50):
and I have seen a lot of criticism towards those
who are feeling afraid and triggered by all of this.
And so part of this conversation for me was about
let's just explain what these feelings are about and why

(05:12):
they're so strong, because I think it is difficult to
explain to someone sometimes those feelings that you get when
you're really triggered by something that is connected to your upbringing,
your past, something that was very traumatic, and so maybe

(05:36):
the compassion will help, even if it's not something you
know that every listener here is experiencing in the moment,
at least, maybe maybe there can be a little bit
more understanding and compassion for what those that are coming
from high control religions may be feeling right now.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
And perhaps our particular story is not as common about
our upbringing, but there are so many just multiply that
by I don't know, pick a number of people in
this country who have experienced some form of the effects
of Christian nationalism and that kind of vibe far more

(06:18):
than you know, people who were in a straight up cult.
So I think that's important to note too that we're
not just it's not just us who might be triggered
by that, but there's reason for a lot of people
in this country to feel similarly to what we're feeling.
It doesn't have to be the exact same past experience,

(06:40):
if that.

Speaker 5 (06:40):
Makes sense, absolutely, And I think I think it all
comes down to, you know, people should have the freedom
of religion to practice the religion that they believe in,
but also for us and a lot of our listeners,

(07:01):
it's freedom from religion. And so that, you know, maybe
just as a little preview of why Christian nationalism is
so triggering to us, because it feels like the freedom
from that is being threatened. And so we dive into

(07:22):
that with doctor Anderson, and I love how she so
clearly and articulately can explain these concepts because sometimes, you know,
you'll just have this feeling you're triggered and you're feeling
upset and disregulated, but you don't really have the vocabulary

(07:44):
for it or the means to express it adequately. And
she does a really good job of that, and so
that's why, you know, I wanted to have her on,
especially because I thought she can give voice to this
and also give validity to this to people who are
feeling these things.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
This conversation that we had with doctor Anderson was I know,
helpful to the both of us. So we're hopeful that
other people listening will take away some of the same
things that we did from it.

Speaker 5 (08:16):
Yes, for sure. So doctor Laura E. Anderson is a
psychotherapist trauma resolution coach and consultant, writer, and educator. Based
out of Nashville, Tennessee, Doctor Anderson specializes in complex and
developmental trauma, dynamics of power and control, and religious trauma.

(08:37):
She is also the author of When Religion Hurts You
and the founder of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery.
Doctor Anderson's work is grounded in helping people understand the
profound impacts of trauma and guiding them towards healing and freedom.
All right, doctor Anderson, thank you so much for joining
us again. I knew that we needed to have you

(08:59):
back on the podcast. The very day after the election.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (09:06):
I woke up kind of in a state that morning,
and I was scrolling Instagram and I came across a
post of yours and it said, if the election cycle
has reactivated your religious trauma, you are not alone.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (09:24):
That hit me like a ton of bricks, because I
felt really seen in that statement. The fear, the anxiety,
the grief that I was feeling in that moment felt
very different than other times. You know, like it wasn't
just that my choice of candidate was not elected. It

(09:46):
was so much more than that, just very deep and visceral.
You know, we've all seen this rise in Christian nationalism
in recent years. Obviously that's very troubling for a number reasons.
But I think for those of us who have spent
time in high control religion, it can evoke such strong

(10:08):
feelings of fear and also that fear of loss of
autonomy because it mirrors so much of the authoritarianism and
the coerciveness and exclusion and othering that we all, you know,
chose to escape from, and so to feel pulled back
into these dynamics seemingly against our will is just deeply triggering.

(10:34):
And so we wanted to have this conversation with you
for a couple of reasons. One is just to help
listeners who may be feeling the same way, help them
understand what they're feeling, why they're feeling that way, give
validity to it, because I think that really can provide comfort.
But then the other piece of that is that there

(10:57):
are a lot of people who did not experience high
control religion like we did, and they don't understand this
reaction and this response to these events, and so I've
seen a lot of lack of empathy. Is the way
that I've perceived that from people, but I feel like

(11:19):
there just needs to be better understanding of what's going on.
So thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Thank you for having me. It's gonna be a good conversation.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, So let's just get right into it with the
basics of this, which is, let's talk about what Christian
nationalism is and kind of how it differs from other
political and religious expression.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah. I still haven't found a definition that is like
succinct and that I love, but the way that I
usually describe it to people is almost in the term. Okay,
so I will also call it white Christian nats too,
because if we're going to put some qualifiers on it
and looking at like what is this really about? We know,
but when you think as somebody who's like nationalists, it's

(12:08):
this belief in country, right, my country is better than yours.
When you have another precursor, Christian nationalists, it's this belief
that my faith is you know, supreme, and in this
case God and country go together. So my God, my
country is better than yours. It gives me a sense

(12:29):
of permission to be able to enact what I think
is right based off of my God and what's best
for my country onto other people, even if it's not
within their belief systems, whether that's inside of our country
or outside of our country. We put the white Christian
nationalism on there too, because there absolutely is a white
supremacist flavor that wraps around all of this. And there's

(12:53):
so many historical roots that are probably outside of the
realm of what this conversation UH needs to be today today.
But I would highly encourage, Like there's so many good resources.
I love the Straight White American Jesus podcast. They talk
about this all the time. My podcast Sunday School Dropouts.
We did a series in October all about Christian nationalism
and the elections, and really, what I think we're seeing

(13:17):
in this election cycle was that what is popping up,
what popped up and what is continuing to unfold, is
not just something that came about one day. This is
something that has been decades in the making of politicians
and in this case on the right, that have been
plotting and planning for decades of how do we quote

(13:41):
unquote turn this nation back to God, how do we
make this a Christian nation again? Because they believe that
was our roots, is that we were founded on God,
on the God of the Bible, and we need to
get back to that. When we get back to that,
we will be this all powerful country. We can then
also take over the world world for Christ. But also,

(14:01):
you know, our own gain. They don't talk about that
as much like the capitalistic pieces of it, but it's
part of this dominionist theology of we need to win
our country back to God. We are a city on
a hill, country that is often used to talk about
the United States, and because of that, we need to
take this country back for God. We need to take

(14:23):
over all the different areas of this country, whether that's education,
pop culture, news and media, anything out there that we
can take dominion over. We do that, we can take
our country back for God. And ultimately they would say
the end goal of that is, you know, hasten Christ's return,
but that message isn't usually promoted, but that's what they

(14:46):
would say. The end goal is is when we get
you know, when God has reached every corner of the earth,
then he will return. And so they would say that's
part of the reason why we do what we do.

Speaker 5 (15:00):
So why do you think this ideology feels so particularly
triggering to survivors of high control groups?

Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, you know, I think for me personally, it really
actually wasn't even until I read April of Joy's book
Star Spangled Jesus, which just came out in October. She
talked about her growing up as a Christian nationalist and
just like how it was baked into the culture. And
I found myself reading this going, I mean, like, I
knew about Christian nationalism. I remember what it was like

(15:33):
to grow up inside of not only a high control religion,
but one where we talked about politics a lot. But
I don't know that I would have considered myself like
full blown Christian nationalists until I started reading her book
and I was like, oh my gosh, that's me too,
Like that is how I grew up also, And I
say that as an example because I think there's so

(15:54):
many of us that came out of high control religions, cults,
other fundamentalists groups that grew up with this being baked
into the way that we grew up. There really wasn't
a distinction between for instance, God and country. Now, we
always knew God was at the top, you know, and
then came our country. But it was always about taking

(16:16):
America back for God, you know. It was always about
getting Christ in the Bible and prayer back into schools.
It was always about these things, and so it was
it was like essentially interwoven with our theology. So that
was part of our salvation theology, our you know, eternal
destiny theology, all of these things. And so I think
that for so many of us coming out of these

(16:38):
groups where we had to painfully untangle ourselves from these systems,
from the ways that that lived in our bodies, even
after cognitively rejecting them, we then see this group of
people that's promoting it outside of religious contexts, and it's like, well, shoot,
like I thought I left that, I escaped that, like

(17:02):
I gave up my life to get out of that,
and now we're just implementing it, like in the entirety
of our country. It's not just relegated to our churches.
This is going to be a national policy. And that
is extremely triggering and extremely scary.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Very and doctor Anderson, you wrote an article with a
title that I love says, dear Christian nationalists, you of
all people should know how this turns out. So from
your experience and what you've learned through your own high
control religious experience, which we've talked about, how does this
turn out if we continue on this path.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, I mean the day after Trump was elected and
I started hearing it's the second time, and I started
hearing you know, people's rhetoric, and you know, they really
view him as a king, they view him as their savior,
and it just really brought me back to the Old
Testament when the nation of Israel is asking for a

(18:01):
king and God said to them, like, I don't really
think this is what you want. I don't really think
that you do want to be like the other nations.
I don't really think that this is going to turn
out in a way that's going to like give you
the promises that I was going to give you. And
Israel said, no, no, no, no, no, we want a king.
And sure enough, what happened is the king was glorified.

(18:25):
It was all about that. Israel was, you know, kind
of the butt of the joke. They were oftentimes taken captive,
they were oftentimes at war, they were not taken seriously.
They kind of grew further away from the goals that
they said that they had, and they were constantly in
this battle. I mean, gosh, we even see it all

(18:45):
the way up to present day. And so we see
then in the Bible like this is how it turned out,
and they would say this is why Jesus came to
like stop that, like, we don't need a king. We've
got Jesus, right, And so I I don't. I'm not
even suggesting that I agree with that narrative, like on
a personal lens, but because they follow the Bible, because

(19:08):
they're following Jesus, because they should know what the Bible says,
Like why are we not seeing this pattern just being
recreated and going like, hey, this is what happened, Like
why would we expect anything different to happen now, just
because just because it's you know, modern times or whatever.

(19:30):
Like you're asking for a king, you're asking for somebody
to come into be your savior. You're asking for somebody
to you know, promote forward your vision, and you've found
this person that is willingly doing it. But I don't
think it's going to turn out the way that you
think it is. And you know, it's a little bit
of that meme where you sit back and start eating popcorn,

(19:51):
because it's like, I think that we're in for a
repeat of you know, the Old Testament essentially.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
Oh boy, okay, I need to take a breath after that.
So Christian nationalism relies so heavily on the US versus
them mentality, you know, which is also central to high
control religion, and you know, like we talk about on

(20:20):
our podcast, it's central to cults as well, with the
you know, malignant narcissistic head and going down from there
and we're better than everyone else, or we have something
that no one else has, and you know, this othering
has historically served as justification for marginalization of people as

(20:46):
well as violence and genocide. Why do you think this mentality,
like from a psychologist's point of view, why do you
think this mentality is so effective in both religious and
political contexts?

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, I mean I do look it through like a
psychological and a physiological lens. And when I look at
like all our physiology as human beings, what is central
to our nervous systems is that we need to survive,
and our nervous systems are all about survival. It will
do things like it will cause us to do things

(21:27):
that maybe aren't rational, but can rationalize anything in the
service of survival. And so when we look at that
through through that lens. I got a micro level and
apply it to the macro level. I really believe that
beneath this control is a sense for most people of fear. Now,

(21:47):
I do think that there is like the malignant narcissist
who loves to control because it's control, because I want to,
you know, dominate somebody else. Though I think that there's
more psychology to it than just that. But but I
would the majority of people fall into that more fundamentalist
or binary thinking because it gives them the illusion of safety,

(22:08):
and the illusion of safety then includes their survival. So
it's meeting this very basic physiological need that we have.
And here's this person who's in this case like politically
a person, but in many other cases, whether it's a
cult or a religion or some other group, they're going, hey,
if you do these things, this guarantees us these outcomes.

(22:32):
We are very predictable. We have this reward in heaven,
for instance, and so follow this and you will be safe.
And that triggers in our bodies, in our nervous systems,
this kind of sense of like peace. And like I said,
it's an illusion, but it's it's going. Okay. All I
have to do is think these things, believe these things,
where these things be in relationship with these people, and

(22:55):
then that is going to give me the safety that
I need in order to stay so and so I
think we're just then amplifying that, you know, on the personal,
to the group, to the to the country essentially is
where we're at right now. And this belief that if
I were to just you know, vote for these policies
for instance, like that is going to give me the

(23:16):
safety that I need. It's following this god, it's following
the set of rules. It's giving me the certainty of
this eternal destiny. And that feels very satisfying to a
nervous system that is needing to survive.

Speaker 5 (23:29):
Yeah, and then just the community I guess that a
person might gain from being part of a movement like that,
especially it seems like when the movement is very passionate,
then that provides even a heightened sense I feel like

(23:49):
of importance and like we're really doing something. And the
community that, you know, is the reason why so many
people even join any group to begin with. Anyway.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, Yeah, I think are as humans, I mean, and
we can look way you know, way beyond psychology or
way beyond this moment. We need groups, We need other
people to survive. You know, you go back all the way,
you know, to like hunter or gatherer societies. They survived
because they had each other. And so the group piece,

(24:23):
the relationship piece, is also woven into our DNA. But
we also see then taken to other extremes. It goes
beyond just you know, survival, and goes then towards domination
because domination also then in a more advanced mind means
survival also.

Speaker 5 (24:44):
I think one of the scary things about this to
me is that piece that we talked about about justification
for action, and so it seems to be in groups
like this, and especially in Christian nationalism, it's like the
ends justify the means. You know, you can marginalize people

(25:08):
and you can take rights away or protections away from
people because this is all what God wants, and God
wants our country to be a Christian country. I mean,
this is how I'm interpreting these things, and it feels

(25:29):
very scary because it's like you can justify anything, literally anything,
when you have that mindset. And it makes me feel
like I not that we ever did have control or
that we ever knew what was going to happen, But
it makes me feel so much less sure about how,

(25:52):
like what's going to happen in the next several years
to people that I care about and my own family
in our country at large. M hmm.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah, it really is terrifying. And so you can see
why this like the illusion of safety exists in following
this group mentality and having this plan, and to say,
even if I don't like it, at least it gives
me a sense of stability and certainty I know what's
going to happen. And of course then we have the

(26:26):
god peace over all of it, because we've got God
who's mandating it supposedly. But you can see why that
appeals to a person, And then for somebody who doesn't
believe that, why it is so terrifying because not because
it literally is threatening in some cases literally people's survival,
like the demise of their physical being, and then other

(26:50):
people it's maybe not as physically oriented, but in other
ways of whether that's financially or idealistically or relationally, Yeah,
it does threaten our and so we're being impacted at
our core level the same way that other people are.
On the quote unquote other side.

Speaker 5 (27:09):
Right, and also it is one brand of Christianity. That's
the other piece of it. It's that, you know, we've
talked a lot about it, Maddie and I have because
of our experience being in cults. You know, in the
cult group, you know, what you believe is so specific

(27:30):
and very narrow and doesn't generally cross over with too
many other groups because you're really trying to be unique
and all of that. This feels extra scary for that reason.
It feels like, well, this is one brand of Christianity
that this movement is supporting, and so you could be

(27:53):
a Christian and still be marginalized by some of these
policies that may be unacted or who knows what's to come.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah. I remember reading a book about I don't know
over a decade ago. It's called a New Earth by
Eckhart Tooley, and one of the things he talks about
is how like essentially like denominations, like different religions and
denominations kind of came to be and it was out
of this, you know. Part of it was this this
need for something bigger and wanting this savior figure. If

(28:29):
you look at all the world religions that we have
a lot of the same stories, you know, in terms
of the creation and the Savior and all these things, right.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
And.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
They can kind of coexist together too. But what we
started to see happen is that humans were going no, no, no, like,
in order to actually achieve you know, paradise or heaven
or whatever, you've got to do these things here, and
humanity's need for certainty started to get in the way.
And that's where we started to see different denominations. They

(29:00):
didn't call it that back then, but denomination's form. So
you've got this group of people that says, this is
actually the way that you get to this end goal
of heaven, and another group saying, no, no, no, it's over
here that you do this thing. And of course we
see that in our country even today, there's you know,
so many different denominations and so many different theologies and

(29:21):
so many different rules for living and how to relate
to people, which in some ways gives me hope, because
you're right, this group of Christian nationalists, like numerically is
quite tiny, they wield a lot of power right now
because they say we have this you know, specific end
goal in mind. But we also know that in the

(29:44):
systems of power and control, like you're not going to
have to you know, one person the top and then
everybody just very happy with their subservient roles. We know
that there's going to be a jockeying for power. We
know that there's going to be other people that emerge
to say, oh no, no, no, we have to do it
this way and not this other way. And so I
do think that we'll start to see like a church

(30:05):
split essentially. I think we'll start to be that because
they're not going to you know, they had this goal
that aligned them for an election, but I don't know
that it's going to keep them there because in a
system of power and control where you know the person
at the top, like, there's always going to be somebody
buying for their power and trying to take them down.

Speaker 5 (30:29):
Okay, that's a good point, and that gives me some hope.
And that book Eckhart Tolse a New Earth. It's just
that book changed my life. Yeah, it's so listening and
I haven't read it. Please go get it now. Love it.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
You've kind of you almost answered this. You kind of
were on the fringes of this, but to be more
direct with it, how is Christian nationalism particularly dangerous to
people in the LGBTQ plus community. Uh, you know, religious
minorities we talked a little bit about, you know, there
are lots of people who don't agree with that, and

(31:08):
then also people of color.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, so I mean, oh, there's there's so much more here.
But when we look at like a fundamentalist group where
you know, way of living, there's very specific rules around
pretty much everything, and it's done in this attempt to
say that if you follow these roles, do these things,
relate these ways to each other into the world, then

(31:33):
you will be doing things the quote unquote right way.
That gets you acceptance within the group, and it also
gets you to this eternal you know, reward that we're
all going for. And so that of course plays to
like very basic human needs for survival and safety and
stability and things like that. The problem with that is

(31:53):
they they create this way that you are supposed to
do and be and live and relate, and then everything
outside of that is wrong. So that's where we do
get that us versus them mentality that you were talking
about earlier, Ashley. But that's also then where we start
to see that like attitudes and then actions towards people

(32:14):
who are not following this very specific prescriptive way of living,
whether it's because of choices that they're making or because
of simply who they are as a person and not
fitting into that box or that mold that has been
deemed the right way to live, or to be or
to exist. If you're not a part of that, for
whatever reason chosen or unchosen, you are at risk of

(32:39):
you know, rights being taken away, your body being harmed,
being you know, subjected to all sorts of public criticisms
or punishments. And so that's where we see things like
whether it's the religiously marginalized LGBTQ folks, non white folks, women, like,
all of that doesn't fit inside this prescription of what

(33:02):
life is supposed to be. So if you were to
look at like Project twenty twenty five, they don't come
out outright and say, you know, we're discriminating against black people.
Of course they're not going to say that. But when
you look at the policies and who they are directed at,
you start to see the ideal family. So Project twenty

(33:23):
twenty five is all about family, the ideal family. So
then you look at the policies that they're wanting to
put in place the people who are going to be
most harmed or marginalized as the result of them. And
you see, oh, actually, the ideal family is a cis
gender heterosexual man, a cists gender heterosexual woman who have
you know, their two point five children with a dog

(33:44):
and a white picket fence. And oh my gosh, that
sounds exactly like what we grew up leaving, you know,
probably a few more kids, you know, ten or twelve kids,
but still it was a very specific idea of what
was the right and godly way. And so you see
then that anybody who doesn't fit that mold. Sure they
might not be you know, stoned to death like they

(34:05):
were in the Bible, but they're not going to get
funding that they need. They're not going to be able
to have childcare the way they need it. They're not
going to be able to you know, have good paying jobs.
They might only be making minimum wage. You're going to
have people that are punished harsher than others for crimes
for you know, not being able to maybe like pay
their bills on time. All of that is going to

(34:27):
be in play, and it's targeted at anybody who doesn't
fit into the ideal.

Speaker 5 (34:33):
Yeah, I've done a little research on Project twenty twenty five,
and I obviously have not read the full nine hundred
and twenty pages, but I pulled up a quote directly
from it where they call on the president to quote
protect faith based grant recipients from religious liberty violations and

(34:55):
maintain a biblically based, social science reinforced definition of marriage
and family. This definition of marriage and family references is
heterosexual marriage. Of course. So I've heard a lot of
people say, well, you know, they're not saying that they're
going to do away with gay marriage. But when you

(35:18):
read between the lines and you read, like I just read, like,
what else does that mean?

Speaker 1 (35:25):
Absolutely? Yeah, Like, why would you keep gay marriage rights
in place? Right? Why would you keep rights for people
that are of different races to marry? Like you wouldn't
need to keep that in place either. And it's not
even that you would necessarily specifically go after policies it was.
It would be that you don't you just don't uphold them,

(35:46):
like they're not punishable if they're not followed, you know,
So if somebody says no, you're a gay couple, I'm
not going to marry you. I'm not going to give
you the marriage certificate. You know, like we saw when
when gay rights, when gay marriage was legalized, we saw
that happen. There's consequences for that, right in this Project
twenty twenty five world, there is not because if they're

(36:09):
wanting you to hold up this biblical and then supposed
social science definition of a family, they I mean that
that technically then goes against their biblical interpretation of what
is the marriage. And so yeah, they're not saying it,
maybe overtly, but yeah, for any of us who came
out of these environments, we know exactly what they are saying.

Speaker 5 (36:33):
Exactly and then and you cannot expect to receive protections
if you are part of a marginalized group already, because
now you know what is thought about you.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 (36:51):
Another thing that really I feel like is difficult for
me and I'm sure for Mattie as well. I mean
we've talked about it, but we grew up in cults,
two different ones, and the cult that our father started,

(37:12):
he was, you know, the leader, and we've realized, you know,
there was malignant narcissism involved there, as it so often
is with cult leaders, and then the other church, their
cult that we were in before that it also was
led by a malignant narcissist. And I think I look

(37:37):
at Donald Trump and I see those characteristics and it
absolutely frightens me. I feel like, oh, I've already experienced
a lot of narcissistic abuse, Like I'll pass on that, no,
thank you. And I'm wondering, you know, with people that
you counsel and that you encounter, is that a common

(37:58):
thread for them as well, since so many of these
groups are led by the narcissistic leader.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, it's so interesting with Donald Trump because on the
one hand, I think there are so many people that
are absolutely terrified exactly for the reasons that you're saying.
There's so much similarity. They can see it. We see
the recklessness, we see the self promotion things like that,
and there's also this really weird phenomenon that I started

(38:26):
thinking about and then my clients started popping up with that,
and that was this recognition that because he is so narcissistic,
I don't know that he is necessarily going to well,
he is a narcissist, and this is his second term
as president. He is extremely self involved. He wants what

(38:46):
is best for him, and that I mean he will
do whatever he needs to to get to that position.
He needed Christian nationalists and evangelicals and religious folks to
be on board with him to get him into this position.
That was how he got them. But he is also
smart enough to know that he doesn't need them anymore,

(39:08):
Like he's now achieved this position that he doesn't need
them for in order to continue it. So on the
one hand, I find it to be amusing that, you know,
he's starting to pull back on some of the promises
that he was making to them, and you know, Christians
are going, wait, what, like I can't believe you're doing this,
and everybody else is like what did you expect? You know?

(39:31):
And on the other hand, it also it can be
very scary because that leaves a lot of policies, that
leaves a lot of big things that impact our country
in the hands of somebody who is unstable because he
is only about himself. You know, say what you want

(39:51):
about Joe Biden or even like George Bush or whatever.
There wasn't in them this level of narcissistic tendencies where
they didn't consider the country right and That's what I
think can be so scary is because when we look
at that and we look at the cult leader or
you know, a pastor at a high control religion, part

(40:14):
of what makes them so scary is that they are
about their own endgame and it really doesn't matter what
they do or who they trample over, so long as
they are in that place of idealization, even if it's
only in their own mind.

Speaker 5 (40:33):
Yeah, and that that's what's so scary, I think to
both of us, because you know, we we experience what
it was like to not be to not be needed
anymore for narcissistic feed I would say, yes, and to
just be completely discarded. There's just a complete you know,

(40:55):
maybe there's sociopathy there, but there's just a complete lack
of empathy that I've noticed from a lot of these leaders,
and they don't really care who gets hurt in the
process of getting what they want. And seeing all those
characteristics in Donald Trump definitely is different. Like you said,

(41:18):
you know, I don't remember crying when George Bush got elected.
You know, it's just it's a different it's just a
different feeling because I never felt like even if a
candidate won that I didn't particularly want in office or
vote for. I didn't have this like existential fear of

(41:41):
what was to come because I still like believed, okay,
they're they're like a human being with empathy, and like, yeah,
it's just it's very scary, And I think that leads
me to what can we do? Because you know, those
experiences that we've had live in our bodies and they're

(42:04):
activated right now, and it feels like a very powerless
position to be in. And I know, for myself, I've
been searching for what can I do right now to
take care of myself, but then you know, also rebuild

(42:26):
energy for advocacy. I'm wondering if you have any tips
or ways that we can survive this and get through
at least this initial hard part.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah, I think, you know, one of the hardest pieces,
truly is that we're in this limbo time right now.
Right We've had this election, so we do know who's
going to be president. He has no power for another
you know, five six weeks or whatever. But he is,
you know, making appointments, he's you know, weighing in on issues.
People are listening to him, he's a part of meetings,

(43:01):
all of these things. That are a normal part of
any presidential transition. But we know that this is coming,
we know that this is happening, and you know that
period of waiting before we know what's actually going to happen.
I think for anything, whether we're talking about in between
presidents or you know, waiting to hear back on anything

(43:22):
that you're you're really anxious about, it's it can be terrifying.
And so that causes us to live at a level
of heightened anxiety, hypervigilance, and things like that. And so
I think it's going to look different for everybody, but
I do think that we have to find ways to
take care of ourselves that are meaningful to us. And

(43:43):
I what you know, for some people, that might be
jumping right back into advocacy work and right back into
talking to people, and right back into trying to figure
out what went wrong, what happened, how do we do
things better. For other people, it might be I need
to not be scrolling on social media, need to not
be listening to these podcasts, or I need to dive

(44:03):
into the latest season of Love is Blind because I
just need to like have some sort of you know,
like a distraction. And I think all of that is okay.
And so whatever it is that you need to take
care of yourself, it's okay to not have to be
super involved right now. I think part of that too
is letting yourself grieve. And you know, it's funny because

(44:27):
I some of the posts that I had that I
created for November and that I posted my social media,
I had actually written them months before because I knew that,
regardless of who won, like we were gonna need to
grieve because this has been a huge, long election cycle
where we're finding out that friends and family that we

(44:48):
thought we could trust maybe don't vote or think or
believe the same way that we do. Maybe they're voting
against our rights. We have a lot of grief around,
just like all the dynamics that happen during an election
cycle and just seeing people's true colors and having to
hold everything in and not break until November fifth, right,

(45:10):
And so I think letting ourselves grieve, letting ourselves feel sadness,
letting ourselves, you know, acknowledge the anger, the fear. You know,
emotions are very much like a wave. They can rise
and they kind of peak, and they might feel really
intense for like a minute, a minute and a half
and then they slowly start to dissipate. But there's something

(45:31):
we can do in that, in honoring our body and
our lived experience, to say, like I'm going to at
least let myself feel those things and then you know,
the next moment, I'll feel whatever is coming in that
moment as well. There's there's something there that we can do.
You know, I'm hesitant to say like you have to
jump back in and do advocacy work and everything like that.

(45:52):
I think it's it's worth noting that a lot of
people feel extremely exhausted and extremely dish and they don't
know what are we standing for, and they're able to see,
you know, problems within different parties and how we go
about things like I think like honoring that exhaustion is necessary. Right,

(46:14):
It's really hard to give from an empty cup, which
I know maybe sounds overly spiritual, but if you are,
if you are exhausted, you have nothing to give, right.
You have to be able to take care of yourself,
you have to be alive, you have to be energized
in order to actually have that to give to somebody.
And so I think that's something that really is beneficial too,

(46:38):
and I was talking to a group of my friends.
This was shortly after the election. We got together and
we were talking like, well, what do we do? And
all of us just had this overwhelming kind of like separately,
and then we were talking about this of going like,
you know what, I'm going to focus on the relationships
that I have in my life. Excuse me, I'm going

(46:59):
to focus on my neighbors. I'm going to focus on
the people that I'm in contact with. I'm going to
focus on the people that I work with. I'm going
to have conversations with them. I want to get to
know what's important to them. I want to be able
to talk about things, not debate about things, but actually
see other people as humans and listen to them and
make the changes that I need to make in my

(47:19):
own life so that I'm honoring other people around me,
so that I'm living according to my values, because that
is part of it, right, In order to make change,
we have to make change on individual levels as well.
And so I think that's been appealing to me in
particular because that feels tangible, that feels like something I

(47:40):
can do. You know, I don't know if I have
energy to go door knocking or phone banking or anything
like that. But I'll have a conversation with my neighbors.
I will, you know, go out for coffee and talk
with this friend or that friend, like that feels tangible
and not that we you know, we can use that
then to activate ourselves in ways then that are important

(48:02):
and congruent with our values, rather than again just like
giving from this like empty cop that we have nothing in.

Speaker 5 (48:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
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Speaker 2 (50:07):
You've talked about looking for glimmers kind of as a
way to cope with these kind of feelings. Could you
kind of talk about that and then any other ways
that survivors of religious trauma can cope with feelings of
helplessness and fear right now in particular.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, so I love glimmers. It's language that we use
in the kind of the somatic therapy world. And it's
not meant to be like bypassing or just like wrapping
something up with the pretty bow, but it's this way
of identifying, like, what are the things that I can
notice in my everyday life that are like brief moments

(50:47):
of lightness and ease or okayness. And what that does
is when we look for those things, when we notice
those things, it reminds our body that right now I
am okay in this moment, I am so. I liken
it to scuba diving, which I've never been scuba diving,
but I know enough about it to know that you

(51:07):
can't stay down at the bottom of the ocean forever,
right You can't be trudging around in the darkness and
the cold and you know the unknown of the ocean.
At some point you have to come up for sunlight,
for air, for food, for connection before you can fill that,
take back up and then go back down into the depths.
And I look at glimmers like that as well. And

(51:29):
even how we navigate this time, we have to have
moments of lightness and ease to remember, like the sun
is still there. I don't mean s O N, I
mean s U N. Yeah's make this like a sermon, right,

(51:51):
but it's like we need to remind our bodies, like
like literally there is sunshine, you know there another day
does come. There are our moment of even tiny laughter,
And I think that's important. That's what we call glimmers.
Then where can I find the glimmers in my day?
I remember this was years ago and I was really

(52:11):
reaching for glimmers, but I was trying to grow my
hair out at the time. And my glimmer that day
was I only needed three bobby pins to like put
it up in a podium off. I was like, you
know what, I'm gonna take that because like it brought
me a little moment of joy. And so that's just
it's important to look for that, right to look for
where can we find moments of joy or lightness or
ease or connection or okayness to remind our bodies that

(52:36):
right now, in this moment, I'm okay, and that can
also then fill us back up to be able to
go into the dark stuff, which is kind of the
second part of your question of like what do we
do with like the helplessness, the fear, the powerlessness, because
that's that's the stuff at the bottom of the ocean
in this analogy, the stuff that we have to kind
of trudge around. And you know, oftentimes helplessness powerlessness comes

(53:01):
from fear, it comes from not feeling like you have
a sense of control or choice in your life. Makes
a lot of sense why you might then feel powerless
or helpless. And so, you know, I wish I could say, oh,
do these things and then if you live in the
United States, you're going to be fine. But I can't
because I too don't know what is going to happen.
I too don't know, you know, on January twenty first,

(53:23):
what my choices are going to be. But I think
in that, because as humans we thrive on stability, I
would say, what are the ways that I can create
my own sense of stability in my own life? What
are the things that I know that I can count on,
or how can I create something some habits, some patterns

(53:43):
that give me something to count on in the midst
of a very chaotic environment. Where are the choices that
I can make? And when I'm making that choice, can
I lean into that, like in an intentional way to say, like,
I am making this choice. It's just it's these little, small,
somatic ways of reminding your body that, yeah, it does

(54:06):
suck it. You know if if XYZ policy is enacted
and we might have to take additional action, you know,
maybe it means you're changing the way where you live.
Maybe it means that you're shifting relationships, Maybe it means
a variety of other things. So when we make those choices,
like really owning like this is a choice I'm making. Yes,

(54:28):
it might feel like I'm forced to make it, but
I'm going to use this as a way to say
I am choosing this. I am you know, I am standing.
I know what I can count on, and I'm going
to do that. So I wish there was like this
really beautiful, succinct list of like, oh, do these things,
You're gonna feel so much better, But unfortunately I can't

(54:50):
give anybody that. And it's gonna look different for everybody anyways.
But when we're looking at creating our own sense of
like internal safety and stabilit these are things that can
exist regardless of what's happening outside of us.

Speaker 5 (55:08):
I love that you've given us a permission structure to
rest and listen to our bodies right now before we
jump back into advocacy, because I have felt that pressure,
you know. I think of you know, I specifically think
of black women and how they have carried this for

(55:33):
generations and they didn't always have the privilege to rest
and listen, you know, because you had to keep fighting.
And so there is that part of me that is
just like, no, we have to just like is have
to trudge on. But but you are right, if you

(55:55):
don't have anything left in the cup, that's not going
to be very effective whatever whatever you do with that
very limited energy. And that's kind of where I'm at now.
And I love the concept of glimmers as well. Like
I don't know where I heard this, but I just
wrote in a notes app on my phone, like good

(56:16):
things are always happening to me, and then every day
when something happens and it can be so simple. I
had coffee with a friend, my daughter called and we
talked for half an hour. Like I will just type
that in and it is like a reminder, like you said,
like not everything has changed, like the sun still rises,

(56:39):
and that has been helpful for me for sure.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Oh I love that.

Speaker 5 (56:44):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
That's great.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Yeah. What role can mental health professionals like those at
the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery plug play in
helping people navigate the intersection of trauma and political fear?

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Yeah, I mean, I will say that this topic is
something I know many of our clients have been talking
to their practices about since the beginning of this calendar
year and probably even before that, but really this year,
and so I think that, you know, so much of
the work that we do with our clients really is
like somatic based. So some of the things that we're

(57:25):
talking about of finding a sense of internal safety, of
finding internal stability, of being able to kind of integrate
the past into the present, and trauma resolution. I think
that's important because you know, like we started this conversation
out talking about there's so many added triggers for those

(57:45):
of us coming out of high control religion. We are
seeing the through lines, we are seeing where things are
virtually the same or very similar, and so it just
puts us at this like hyper aroused date all the
time if we let it right. So, I think that I,

(58:05):
you know, I've been really blessed to be a part
of many like case consultations of people talking about like, hey,
here's how we are navigating this fear. Here's ways that
we're helping clients find a sense of empowerment within themselves.
Here's ways that we're helping clients develop the ability to
rest in the midst of chaos and giving themselves permission

(58:25):
to think and act how they want to rather than
this is what the group told me I was supposed
to do. And so I think that that is only
going to continue. You know, we're coming up to the
holiday times, which means there's many people that are spending
time with friends and family who are still in those groups,

(58:46):
who are still in those religions who did vote differently
than them, And so I think that you know, that
also then can add to the sense of triggering, because
you know, I'm I'm like entering into that territory again,
both religiously and politically, and so you know, I, yeah,
that's like shameless plug.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
Like.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
One of the things that I love about the practitioners
at the Center for Trauma Resolution Recovery is not only
having their own personal experiences with this, but I really
do believe they're equipped to be able to handle this
because we understand these unique intersections.

Speaker 5 (59:22):
Absolutely. I had a session with my counselor from the
Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery the day after the
election that morning, Yeah, and that was that was so
helpful for me. It was more than just having someone
like hold space for me to share my feelings in

(59:46):
that moment, but it was that I felt like she
and I were feeling very similar feelings because she also
went through similar high control religion experiences and we like,
I didn't need to explain to her why I was
so upset. She completely got it. It was, you know,

(01:00:08):
unsaid almost.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
So.

Speaker 5 (01:00:09):
I think having someone who understands where you're coming from,
who has also lived that experience, is so important. And
that's one reason why I love what you do.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
Oh, thank you, thank you. Yeah, I was I had,
you know, I didn't know as somebody who runs the company.
I was like, gosh, what do I say the day
after the election, you know, like I want to be
an encouragement, but I'm still in this too, like right,
you know exactly what you're saying. And so my encouragement,
which is really like a company goal, like we do

(01:00:41):
this all the time anyways, But I just I emailed
everybody and I said, please just always know like you're human. First,
you get to show up as a human. You get
to you know, be a compassionate human and go through
this with people. You don't have to have it perfect.
You just need to be there. And I think I
said it a little bit more eloquently in the email,

(01:01:03):
but I think that is the beauty of what we do.
And I appreciate hearing your story, Ashley, because I think
that's what makes us different. But I think that's what
makes the impact, is you know, starting at that baseline
of like, yep, we believe you, we get it, you know,
and we're going to be here together walking down this

(01:01:24):
path towards healing.

Speaker 5 (01:01:25):
Yeah. So I saw that you are accepting new clients.
So where can people find you?

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Yes, I am taking on new clients for the first
time in like five years, So you can find me
on Instagram, doctor Laura E. Anderson. And that's also my
website doctor Laura Anderson dot com. If you go to
the services page, you can find out all about many intensives,
which is working with me for just two hours at
a time, you know, like a one time thing, regular

(01:01:53):
individualized coaching. I work with professionals doing consultations. And then
of course the Center for Trauma Resolution Recovery. We are
on Instagram at Trauma Resolution and Recovery and then our
website is Trauma Resolution and Recovery dot com. There are
so many amazing practitioners that are taking on new clients.
You can, you know, sign up for your free inquiry

(01:02:14):
call and start working with a practitioner today.

Speaker 5 (01:02:17):
Amazing. Okay, well, I encourage everyone listening to go check
that out. We know you've got a run. But thank
you so much for coming back on, especially during this time.
Thank it is really beneficial to both of us.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Yeah, I'm so glad to see here. Yeah, thank you
for having me. I will come back anytime.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
We'll hold you to that.

Speaker 6 (01:02:41):
If you liked this episode of The Cult next Door,
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