Ep.47: "Fire Rat From Heaven"

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In this largely uncut roundtable discussion, Mattie and Ashleigh sit down with Jen Lewis and Michael Sandow to explore the beginnings of "The Love Move" in Crusade Church. Together, they delve into its early promises, underlying dynamics, and the lasting effects it had on those involved. This raw and revealing conversation offers a firsthand look at the movement's rise and its hidden truths.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Robert
w Armstrong.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
And I am here to bring you the truth. No
one else is telling you the things that God is
telling you through me.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
He's speaking through.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Me the Lord. Let me experience what it is to
be a new bride.

Speaker 4 (00:24):
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
We're coming to the Lord and if you.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Can take it, beyond the veil is the chamber.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
That's the wedding chamber.

Speaker 4 (00:36):
The Lord told me that. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to the Cultning Store Podcast. I am Maddie Lesser, joined
as always by my sister Ashley Teeter. Before we get
started with today's episode, we want to remind everyone to
follow us. We're on TikTok and Facebook and Instagram and
all that stuff. Go and follow us if you haven't already.

(00:59):
We drop reels and posts and other stuff there. It's
kind of good to help keep up with what we're doing. Also,
want to do our Double Portion Club shout outs real quick.
We have Chase and Shanda, Thank you guys, David Brown,
Salute to David, and then one of our newer members.
Heather Bartlett. Thank you guys so much for supporting the podcast.
It means a lot to us. So if you also

(01:22):
want to be part of the Double Portion club, you
can join our Patreon for our ten dollars tier, or
if you just want to support the podcast you're not
money bags over there, and you want to do five
dollars a month, you can do that and get some
ad free episodes and just kind of help support the podcast.
So before we get started with this episode, want to

(01:42):
do a little intro for it. This is actually an
episode that we recorded in October ish of twenty twenty three,
so this is old.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
This was kind of what I've called.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
More of a round table type of episode. There was
no table, but we were kind of in a little
semi circle of people. I think we had four total
guests on, so it was our sister Jen, our friend
Sandy who has been on the episode previously, Ashley, and
then myself and some of you will have seen on

(02:14):
our socials the real little video that we did talking
about the fire rap from Heaven.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
That is where this.

Speaker 4 (02:23):
Episode is, where that reel came from, So that can
kind of give you an idea of the vibe of
this episode, it's mostly uncut. It's not really it doesn't
follow a traditional storyline, so to speak, but it's a
lot about the love Move and just some of the
weird things where we're just kind of basically sitting around

(02:46):
together kind of reminiscing a little bit about what that
time was like. And then for Ashley, she's in shock
half the time of some of the things she's hearing.
But I cut this episode together several months ago, just
kind of for fun, and I really enjoyed it. It
had been long enough that I didn't remember everything that
we talked about, and I thought it was good. So

(03:07):
Ashley and I talked and we thought, you know what,
other people are probably gonna like that too. We thought
it was worth sharing with everybody.

Speaker 5 (03:14):
Yeah, and I've watched that reel about the fire Rat
from Heaven repeatedly and I still laughed to the point
of crying every time. It's hysterical.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
So we hope that you guys find it as entertaining, enlightening,
and as funny as we did when we were recording
it and listening back. So with that said, here is
our round Table episode about the Love Move and the
fire Rat.

Speaker 6 (03:44):
Last night, I received the revelation of a prophetic dream
I had last year. In the dream, I was in
the water praying over a woman I was about to baptize,
when suddenly crocodiles rushed in to devour her. But I
kept praying and easily kicked the crocodiles away. Then suddenly
the devil sent a giant crocodile called Pretense, but with

(04:07):
one backhand slap, I disposed of him. Then the water
we were standing in suddenly disappeared and dry ground appeared.
The sister and I climbed up on the bank, and
as we turned we saw a massive mail lion raging
and charging at us. I was able to fight him
off because he couldn't get up the embankment, but then
he suddenly turned and ran down to a place where

(04:28):
he could come up on level ground with me. The
brethren were all around between the lion and me, but
he was focused only on me. My back was against
a massive wall and I had no place to go.
The lion fixed his eyes on me as he paced
back and forth, but he was reluctant to charge me.
He was wary and was studying how he should attack.

(04:51):
I thought, if I had a weapon I could shoot
and kill this lion. So I looked over to my
son Michael and said, get my gun, but he wasn't looking,
nor was he aware of what was happening. And that's
how the dream ended. And here's the revelation. The crocodiles
were demons that have been sent to attack me, the

(05:13):
church and our ministry. Pretense was sent to devour the
sister because she was receiving a powerful anointing as I
prayed over her. We have been battling the powerful demon
Pretense for years, and the Lord had told us that
Satan had assigned him to work against our church. But
I believe that he is gone now because I haven't
seen any evidence in months. Last night, the Lord revealed

(05:36):
to me that the lion is the Devil himself and
will come soon to kill me. The Lord revealed that
the devil has permission to kill me if he can,
but that with the right weapon, I can kill, not
literally kill, but banish him from hampering our ministry, render
him powerless. In the dream, I didn't think I had

(06:00):
that weapon, but this morning the Lord told me that
the weapon needed for my victory and his defeat is faith.
The Lord told me that one day I would be alone.
It is this moment to come when I must face
the devil directly and alone. Just before I received the dream,
during a Friday night praise and prayer service, a brother

(06:22):
saw fire fall on our lamp table and the stage.
He ran up to put the fire out, but it
had disappeared. It was fire from heaven.

Speaker 7 (06:33):
God except perfect, doesn't that?

Speaker 6 (07:01):
Yeah, I do not even look at you, and I did.
I didn't even look, but you were in my pray.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
There were multiple times I was going to crack, no
I do.

Speaker 6 (07:19):
Okay, and okay, okay, okay, it was fire from heaven. Okay,
I gotta get all these gigs out, even crush.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
But later I was like, fucking ross.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
You knew we had rods at the church.

Speaker 7 (07:43):
Yeah, and it was also just running along the top
of them.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Also very special marble uh and.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
Hobby lobby letters, Rat from Heaven, the rat from Heaven.

Speaker 6 (08:05):
It's running across our PBC marble.

Speaker 5 (08:07):
You've ever noticed stuff like that, and like demonic activity,
it's just so lame and weak, and it's like God
could rain fire down and just absolutely.

Speaker 6 (08:22):
But it's like tear the roof off the church, say hello.

Speaker 5 (08:25):
Yeah, or it's like a light flickers, or you hear
a sound somewhere and it's like it's the demons, you
know where.

Speaker 6 (08:32):
You see a dad said, he solo cloud in the
in the ceiling with brother Josephy were singing praises and
it was the kind of glory of the Lord Cloud.
It's like nobody else saw that. Shit. Do something demonstrated,
you know you can. It's like it's really it was
always that crazy disconnect between like God of the Old Testament,
who would like part the Red Sea and do all

(08:54):
these earning Yes, incredible, like undeniable pillar of fire.

Speaker 5 (08:59):
And it's like Jesus his face on a piece of toasters.

Speaker 6 (09:04):
Because you're lucky. You're very lucky. Yeah, you're lucky, right,
you guys mad keep it together, Okay, okay, God has
told me to build a golden altar. Wait, I laughed

(09:24):
right after it was fire from heaven.

Speaker 7 (09:27):
It's okay.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Sorry, I took a second.

Speaker 6 (09:31):
I was trying to keep it. Okay, I'll start the
paragraun and Sandy takes the meditation.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yes, sorry, everyone relaxed, find your mats, you're going.

Speaker 6 (09:42):
He loves the golden altar. He loved that altar. Then
he loves it now.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
Still so golden, still love that gold all right, I'm
actually golden.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Like I told everybody, wasn't it.

Speaker 5 (09:55):
Goldie for something?

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Twenty four care of double Golden. He kept on talking
about how to tell.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
Us how much he spent on it, but he's like,
I will tell you how much.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
Where'd you get the money?

Speaker 4 (10:04):
YEA even a big deal about that, And I don't
even tell how much. Well that's been too much, too
much on this, and.

Speaker 6 (10:13):
Y'all were going to be stoned if you damaged those
altars when trans and.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
I forgot how crazy he was with transporting those to
the feast and circe. He was like, oh and they
were like wrapped up with bubble.

Speaker 5 (10:31):
Wrap and like I need sion this.

Speaker 6 (10:34):
I don't know what it is.

Speaker 4 (10:35):
It's a bench, Yeah, it's a bench. It is, yes,
with lather covers.

Speaker 6 (10:41):
Literally like a bench, like like a bench.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
Oh, it's it's in one of the photos.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
That's it.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
Oh yeah, I mean you can see it a little bit.
I'll just.

Speaker 5 (10:52):
How many.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
There was also the altar of consecration, which was below
the marriage carriage, which is where you brought any of your.

Speaker 5 (11:02):
That is that it just looks like the bench in
our foreer.

Speaker 6 (11:10):
Wait are you expecting? No?

Speaker 5 (11:13):
But whatever it is gold like it's a gold.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Leaf over there.

Speaker 4 (11:18):
And then the seat cushion was gold pleather.

Speaker 5 (11:22):
Wait, so the legs were gold leaf?

Speaker 6 (11:27):
Is that that's all?

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Was the wood? Believe it was particle board as well?

Speaker 6 (11:34):
Oh my god?

Speaker 5 (11:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (11:39):
And then well you can kind of see in front
of Blake another one with cleather, and that this one had.

Speaker 6 (11:46):
Okay, can I see it? So?

Speaker 5 (11:51):
Are people like sit kneeling at it?

Speaker 6 (11:54):
Or exactly that? Exactly that?

Speaker 5 (11:58):
But was he worried about someone like sweating on it?

Speaker 3 (12:02):
Or no, don't worry about what it looks like, Ashley,
that's right, just get into it.

Speaker 6 (12:11):
Okay, I'm gonna start the whole paragraph over here. Oh,
I don't know if I can, because I have to say.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
That you can do it.

Speaker 6 (12:19):
I have to say that it was far. I don't
know if I can.

Speaker 5 (12:25):
I can do it, yeah, but you're probably gonna do.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
All right.

Speaker 6 (12:31):
That's oh, then I don't have to redo it. Okay.
God has told me to build a golden altar to
place in that spot, and that he will send his
holy fire upon it, and that it will spread all
over the world through our ministry. This is why I've

(12:52):
been writing and preaching about the fire on the arrow
and kindling afresh the fire and others and passing the flame.
And after that we have the cloaks of humility and
the reckoning are both right there.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
I really love the cloaks too.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
That was big for me. I remember writing cloak on
my arm so that when I would yeah, yeah, because
I'm working, and I'm like, remember, take that animal feces,
rub it on your face. Man. He said that. That's
what he said. I mean, yeah, I know she's in
the dark right now, but yeah, the cloaks. Can somebody
explain the cloaks?

Speaker 4 (13:32):
Well, can we explain what people just heard? It get you? Like,
what you just heard probably be best. Yeah, So what
you just heard was a prophecy that our dad received
in twenty eighteen, a dream, Yeah, a dream in twenty eighteen,

(13:55):
and then in twenty nineteen was the interpretation of that dream.
And that's kind of where we're starting with this piece,
because that's when there was a shift in the church
where things really change. So we're going to do our
best to kind of delve into that. It's not going
to be every single thing that happened that we don't

(14:19):
there's no not enough time in the world to talk
about everything that happened, but to kind of give our
best recollection of the major important points that were really
moments of a change. During our time in a Crusade church.

Speaker 6 (14:39):
Leading up to the interpretation of this dream, Dad was
very discontent with the state of the church. We had
a group of really devoted, sincere loyal people. It wasn't
a large group, but the people that were there were

(14:59):
very in but that was not enough. And I think
that it's important to note that so often men in
these positions are projecting their own inner world, and I
find that to be true here. Dad was just it

(15:22):
was not enough. He didn't feel like he was enough.
And you know that's why they so often project grandiosity.
You know, it's really a cover. You know, they call
it a mask for a reason. So I think that
prior to this, his sermons and his overall attitude reflected

(15:50):
just a real dissatisfaction with the fact that we were
not having healings every week and lots and lots of
prophecy from people who had those gifts, and he wanted
so much more and he would kind of get angry
about it, and he would give sermons where he was

(16:14):
there was an angry tone because we just weren't measuring
up to his idea of what this very special elect
group of people should be and should be doing, and
what the church should be like, and how we should
be changing our community in our world. And so he
had this dream in twenty eighteen. Out of nowhere was

(16:38):
given the interpretation of this dream, he said, in summer
of twenty nineteen, and it started a chain reaction that
went on for months. It sure seemed like it went
on for so much longer than it actually did, but

(17:00):
maybe that's because so much happened in a short amount
of time. We were getting messages from Dad daily. He
was saying that he was being woken up very early
in the morning, sometimes middle of the night maybe, and
God was speaking to him in real time, and he
was being given messages and he was able to communicate

(17:22):
with God, and he would ask questions and he would
get the answers right then, and he started writing those
things down, and he would send some of them to
just the family, and he would send some of them
to the whole church. And he to this day calls

(17:44):
that a great move of God, and at the time,
he said that God revealed to him that this was
the latter Rain that was spoken of in Revelation, I believe,
meaning these are the events that are leading up to
the end, the Great Tribulation. And you know, we may

(18:08):
get into some of these more specific messages that he
wrote us in dreams and prophecies, but you'll notice that
Dad was the central figure in all of these things.
You know, the lion had eyes only for him. You know,
later he was describing that dream in more detail, and
he said that the brethren that were surrounding him, I

(18:31):
think only two of them had facial features. Everyone else
had a blank face.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
You know.

Speaker 6 (18:40):
You know, I personally was not at the Friday night
praise and prayer service that kicked all of this off
because I had a newborn. But you know, I think
looking back at that time, I think about the people
that were affected by this and were so sincere as

(19:01):
I said, who trusted him and just wanted if he
said God is moving and he is showing me this
or telling me this. They were hanging on every word.
We were, and we trusted him and believed him, and
that started just almost a daily communication from him to

(19:24):
us about things that God was telling him, and it
was almost kind of a bombardment of information, and he was,
you know, kind of passing to us information that God,
things that God wanted to see and wanted to happen.
And he framed it as if if you did not

(19:50):
fully get on board with this, then you were not worthy,
you were not chosen to be a part of this
end time work. And that was such a powerful component
to this, Like the thought that you could spend your

(20:10):
life devoted to this belief system and or this man
and this particular tiny congregation in Arkansas, and if you
did not get on board with this, no matter how
it sounded to you, you could just be thrown to

(20:34):
the wayside somehow was really powerful.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
I remember thinking at the time because I, like probably
many of us, did not understand because you couldn't understand
exactly what was going on all the components. You just
heard what was being said. I remember thinking about it
in terms of when Jesus told his disciples like, yeah,

(21:04):
you gotta eat my body and drink my blood type thing,
and that there was one point when he said that
prior to the Passover, I believe it was in one
of the gospels where some of the disciples left and
then the others were like, well, what are we going
to do? You have the words of life where it's
almost like you think about, like this is weird and
I don't understand it.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
But if I leave, what.

Speaker 4 (21:26):
If I'm missing out on this like the end time thing,
like this small group that's going to be the people,
not just part of the people, Like this is the
group where it's all coming together. And so that's a
very powerful way to keep people in that where you're like, man,
I knew it, we were special, but like, whoa, this

(21:48):
is like another level. And then there were particular things
about particular people, even things you know that you know
he said about me that were looking back meant to
keep somebody like well, stay right where you are, like
don't make a move, like there's something special for you
in particular. And there was a lot of that going
around and probably more than we even.

Speaker 6 (22:09):
Dangling of charts. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And there was
the woman that he mentioned that he was baptizing in
this dream. We will call her Sasha. She was also
really central to this story and the series of events

(22:33):
and what is obvious now what Dad was trying to do.
He had shared with me. I don't remember at exactly
what time it was, but he told me that there
was a point when Mom was counseling with Sasha on
the phone and was having a lot of problems speaking

(22:59):
with her and to help, and that God spoke to
him and said, she's your daughter, and so he asked
for the phone, and that was kind of the point
at which he started counseling her directly, whereas before Mom
and I had done the lion's share of that. From

(23:19):
that point on, it's it's my opinion that he truly
believed that Sasha was his daughter, that somehow she wasn't
allowed to be raised by him, but that spiritually and
somehow literally she was his daughter and she belonged in

(23:40):
our family.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
Yeah, not as people say, like you're like a son
to me, you're like a daughter, Like no, Well, this.

Speaker 5 (23:48):
Was literal spiritual lineage he was talking about.

Speaker 6 (23:52):
That's right, heritage, that's what he called it. Yeah, she's
a part of my heritage and which was you know,
used to be a real privilege and a real gift.
And so I don't think we can tell the story
of how this whole thing started in twenty nineteen without

(24:16):
establishing that Dad had come to believe that Sasha was
his own daughter. He felt that he had to help
make her believe this. Sasha's own daughter, will call her Alex.
She was then, you know, if you do the math,
she's my granddaughter. And so the man only had so

(24:39):
much time, and at this point he has grandchildren, but
he is heavily investing in Sasha and Alex. And very
early on he told us that the flame that he
mentioned in the interpretation of dream that had been ignited

(25:02):
in his heart, the fiery passion the love of God,
was passed to Sasha, and she was a very special
and in fact essential, in his words, part of this
whole movement. There's lots of things to tell about what

(25:26):
happened in those months in twenty nineteen, but Dad did
start spending copious amounts of alone time with Sasha. Many
people bear witness to this. They would go to the

(25:46):
church in the middle of the afternoon, Dad's car and
Sasha's car are parked there, and they are back in
his office for hours. And what he would come home
and tell us was happening is that they were going
back and forth somehow, and God was delivering Yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:12):
I remember he said in some of the messages that
he sent to the family about that that Sasha would
ask him questions. Yeah, and then before he could even say, like,
I don't know, the Lord would quicken to him.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
That's what it meant.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
And so Sasha was being used in that way to
kind of as a conduit to kind of bring the
meaning the interpretation of mysteries and these things. You know,
there was one clip that I played in a previous
episode where it had you know, there were these you know,

(26:50):
thousands of things that had been revealed. You know, it's
just every day, all day, thousands of things that had
been revealed, mysteries that we have never known type thing.
So that was the just for the context of that,
like that was where a lot of that was coming from,
not just you know Dad saying that he was hearing

(27:13):
directly from the Lord and talking to him. He said
that also, but then this part with Sasha, that that's
the way she was being used so powerfully because they
had this bond, the connection of that same flame of
the you know, blazing love, I think is one of
the ways that he described it.

Speaker 6 (27:35):
Dad told mom that he and Sasha had an ancient connection.
He did not explain that, but he was trying to
get us to believe that there was something very spiritual
and kind of out of his hands about this relationship.
Dad justified spending time alone with this woman she was

(28:02):
unmarried in her maybe early forties, because what God wanted
was for us to love each other in new ways
and we were not to be concerned with how things appeared, which,

(28:25):
as we all know, was a huge departure from what
he taught from forever.

Speaker 5 (28:35):
So it was so much about you do not give
the appearance of evil, even if you're doing something that
is not nefarious at all, If it gives the appearance
of evil, you might as well be doing it.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Yes, well, we talked about you know, Dad had always
said he took the Billy Graham approach even counseling women
like he wouldn't do that alone, And that went on
for years like that wasn't he didn't abandon that, It
just it was it was overnight, quite literally that he
was like, not not anymore. So this was like a

(29:09):
huge change that the justification for didn't really make a
lot of sense, I think, at least to.

Speaker 6 (29:17):
Me, Well, someone had prophesied about the church years and
years ago that God was going to do a new
thing here, and so that was easy. Here's the new thing,
things that we've never done before.

Speaker 5 (29:31):
And that goes back to the ambiguous prophecies that used
at whichever time ends up being convenient.

Speaker 6 (29:44):
Yes out yes, And it was he he was doing
this thing that he felt compelled to do, and so
then he sort of like passed it off to the
rest of the church and said, this is also what
you should be doing, basically, like you know, love on

(30:06):
each other, hug each other, men and men, women and women,
even men and women. He was very specific that things
had changed and that this is what God wanted, and
so he knew that there would be hesitation. He knew
that there would be skepticism and people kind of questioning this,

(30:31):
and so he nipped that in the bud by saying
what I explained earlier, like, if you are resisting this,
you are not cut out for this end time work.
You are not going to be a part of this.
And you know, just the thought that you could spend
so much of your life investing in this one thing

(30:52):
to ruin it at the end. So we all tried.
I think I can say that of everyone, we all
made an effort to get on board with this.

Speaker 5 (31:03):
Did he say from the pulpit one day, here's you know,
the new playbook, so to speak. Or was this kind
of leaked out gradually over weeks and months.

Speaker 6 (31:17):
He wrote it and it was very plain, like.

Speaker 5 (31:20):
To the church Facebook page.

Speaker 6 (31:23):
Or yes, definitely. Yeah, he was very specific.

Speaker 5 (31:26):
So so you're like getting this notification you've got to
love all over each other. It's like fall all over
each other this sabbath.

Speaker 6 (31:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
Well, there's another important distinction that happened very early on
in the Powerful Move where after our lunch service, normally
we would have a Bible study, but now we had
replaced the Bible study with more singing and praise for
an hour or two. So some of the time people
would go home, especially the people that would have children,

(32:01):
but it remained this core group, you know, and he
would just be testing the waters with us. It felt
like it was like a what is that room they
you know they like they try stuff out in films, Uh,
like a test audience type thing. It was like that,

(32:22):
you know. So we would be up there and he
would just go you know what uh, you and you
square dance and I'm serious. Yeah, no, we were doing Yeah,
we were, I'm serious.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
This is amazing new stuff.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Yeah, we were. We were in a circle, all of us.
It was maybe like ten strong guys and girls. And
he would pick people out. You you, you guys, you guys,
a twirl and then around and then he kind of
demonstrated at first, and then you all kind of pick

(32:58):
up on it, and then your heartest beating because it's
come to me. You go all right, yep, go with her, yep.
And then and then about forty five minutes in it
was like a freak show. I remember one of the friends,
a friend of mine, at that the church, I jumped
on his back.

Speaker 6 (33:14):
What was going on?

Speaker 3 (33:15):
I mean, it was obviously we were having we're being silly,
but this was not This is not how it was.
It was very It was a very pious church. Now
you could do all of your this kind of stuff,
you can get a little crazy, but I mean this
was it was getting.

Speaker 5 (33:30):
So it was really a promotion of physical contact. That
was the main like core component of this love movement
or what would you say.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
I wouldn't necessarily say that touching was a core component,
but it was well, I mean that was kind of
beat into our heads that don't worry about what it
looks like. There's going to be singing and dancing. Don't
even let your mind think about it. Just just do
what feels natural. Of course that doesn't feel natural ever,
but it's expected of us to dance. I had to
dance several times, slow dance kind of stuff, and then

(34:03):
I got it wrong several times. So it was not
like that, not like that, like this, you know, so
it's just you never it was. It was just constant chaos.

Speaker 6 (34:13):
But but don't forget the hugging.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
The hugging was the worst. I mean, seriously, absolutely brutal,
absolutely brutal. I'm sure some of us liked it. I
don't know of any of us in here, but it
was you're talking thirty seconds, a thirty second deal for
someone that I don't well, I don't want to be
unkind someone in the church that I'm not close with,

(34:38):
you know.

Speaker 5 (34:38):
I'm expected to curious. How like, what were the instructions given,
like you need to hug each other for extended periods
of time.

Speaker 6 (34:50):
That they literally modeled it though, Yeah, okay, he said,
don't do it like this, Yeah, do it like this? Yeah,
it's hard to say now, I looking at some of
the specifics, it just seems glaringly obvious what he was

(35:11):
trying to do. And so much of this did have
to do with Sasha. Of course he would vehemently deny that,
but there's too many things. You know. He brought this
woman kind of in between him and his wife at times,

(35:40):
and she was in ways like exalted and of more
importance than his own children, and so who he didn't
have much time for anymore. And and then he came
up with this new doctrine that God gave him, you know,

(36:04):
that we were he saw us wearing cloaks, and they
were cloaks of humility, you know. And you guys may
want to read the specifics on that, but you know,
it's so obvious that he was manipulating us into accepting

(36:24):
something that we never would have otherwise by saying, oh, no,
this is your cloak of humility. This is what God requires.
You have to accept this. And there were other things
as well, but yes, I think physical contact was a

(36:45):
pretty key component to what he wanted to happen and
what he was saying God wanted.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
The transparency of it now is pretty stark looking back,
because it seems to me and I don't think or
know that this was an intentional, like thought out thing,
like I want to do this, let me set these
things in place, but I think that's what was happening, yes,

(37:15):
And so looking back, it's like, so all the things
that you wanted to do that you had explicitly preached against,
just like the spending alone time, like he couldn't just
do that. He had to set the stage and make
it okay for everybody else to be doing that same

(37:36):
thing and to be loving on each other in that
same way, so that it's not just that and Sasha
over here like heaven our long hugs, because that's weird,
but not if this is the special love move that's happening,
and the fire started with us and we're passing it

(37:58):
on to you guys, and this is what I wants
and requires of everybody. So we got to do it.
And if you don't do it and you don't like it,
well then you're you're probably not just you know, chosen
for this special end time latter raine move like that.
Looking at it now is like, well, I know exactly
what was happening, and of course we've talked about it,
like he would vehemently deny that today, but like I

(38:21):
have eyeballs, I was there and looking back at it
with some clarity now, it's like, well, it was very
transparent to me what was going on.

Speaker 5 (38:29):
I felt like it was immediately obvious to me having
been out for so long. I mean, the second I
heard that stuff, I was like, oh, you know where
this was going, no doubt in my mind.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Well, and I think you had said something earlier, you know,
to the effect about the people who were there, like
really wonderful people for the most part, in the church.
And I had always thought about you, Sandy, about how
you know, you wanted to be pleasing to God and
you threw yourself into this, which was not comfortable for

(39:10):
you in any way. It was opposite of your personality.
But the way you and a few others in particular,
I think we all were trying, you know, because we
want if it was a God's special move, like we
wanted to be part of it. You know, That's how
I felt. I did not understand it, but I remember
telling Liz, like, I don't get this, but if it's God,

(39:33):
then it'll happen. If it's not, then it won't. Was
that kind of thing, like let it play itself out,
like we'll see it by its fruits, you know. But
you know, there were I feel like a core group
of people who really really threw themselves into it with
like the best of intentions. And I've always always.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Thought that about you.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
I just wondered about your perspective when this started, Like
what was your mindset when this thing first kicked off?

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Well, I hated it at first, I really did, because
it meant more well, just to illustrate how much I
did not want to be in the limelight in certain instances,
I sat in the front row with another one of
my friends, and if you sit on the front row,
you're gonna and you're a male, you're oftentimes going to

(40:27):
be called upon to close in the prayer for the day.
And I didn't want to do that. I hated that.
So I finally, you know, figured out how to get
away from there and to be up with you and
to do the camera stuff. After a year of being
there or whatever. But I felt like, when all this
stuff started happening, here we go, it's going to be
spotlight time again, and you're going to have to get
all crazy. And I was not comfortable with it because

(40:51):
some of the stuff that we haven't talked about yet,
like the four hours of music on Friday and nights
that we had like a two hour thing, and then
it doubled because God really wanted, you know, and it's
like four or five hours on a Friday night. It's
like I already dreaded coming Friday nights, but now we've
doubled it, and now you know, I'm gonna get called
out to go, Hey, would you like to you know,

(41:11):
roll around and light yourself on fire or whatever it was.
You know, it was super uncomfortable, and then you know,
some of the stuff this is this really I feel
like was in the beginning that I'm not sure on
the timeline with this. But we would enter the church normally, Hey,
good to see you, happy Sabbath. Hey hey, we'd all
sit down, take our seats, and then it was church time.

(41:34):
But this was like this was there was one day
when your dad like had this song on his heart auguste. Okay,
that day we listened to that song at least eight
or nine times in the row. Run it again, Run

(41:55):
it again, you know, and the third time, I'm going, on, right,
you really can have to get into this, Michael, because
he's gonna know you got to get into this and
really put your hand up harder or whatever. What. But
then after the sixth time, play it, run it again,
run it again? On are you serious? Run it again?
But then this was an everyday thing. But then it
just kept elevating. Not only is it going to be

(42:17):
in the in the four year anymore, we're going to
do a procession with flags and outrageous Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
And also for further context about the music, I was
the one who was up there working on the board
playing the music. Yeah, it was exceptionally loud.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
It was very loud.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
I like, I like loud music. This is exceptionally loud.
He would do the Yeah. So we got we got
the signals, pump it up, get that sub over bumping.
And then on Friday night in particular where you're talking about,
like where it doubled. So we've got this exceptionally loud music.

(42:59):
We had a a good sound system I think, and
then we had very dim lighting. And then at that
point the lighting we had was like this, I thought
it was really beautiful. Like we would set it blue
and purple, you know, lighting where it was really pretty.
And so you've got this dark setting and this very

(43:21):
loud music for extended periods of time, which we've talked
about a little bit. That's not an unknown tactic of
high control groups, like they use things like that. So
just I wanted to add that in for context. It's
not just hey, we're having some music. No, this is
very particular what was happening.

Speaker 5 (43:38):
It's to get you in a state. Yes, yes, you're
creating an experience, and then you can attribute that feeling
that you had to something of a higher power, just
what he was doing.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, well, I mean the kind of person that I
am with music specifically, if the music is not something
that's to my taste, it's going to be very hard
with all those confetti flying down, it doesn't I mean really,
there could be flames shooting up out of space. If
the music is not right, then it's not you know.
But we would pick music oftentimes that was very good.

(44:13):
So I had a lot of memories where I felt
like this is something special, even though I don't quite
agree with it yet, just keep on faking it till
you make it, or we used a phrase at the church.
That was not faked until you make it. It was act
as if, which was a little bit more, you know,
it sounded better. Yeah, but to answer your question is

(44:37):
a little bit further. I did start to kind of
act as if more and more and more as the
months went on to where I went. You know, just
he keeps saying, don't worry about what it seems like.
So I remember I got into like just screaming like
a wild man of just as loud as I know
you guys remember, and I remember you jumping on that

(44:59):
guy's bag.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
You do.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Learn about it, So yeah, I just I didn't. It
was very embarrassing, especially now looking back on it. But
it was embarrassing at the moment while it was happening.
But I went, you know what, just do it, and
it's for the Lord ultimately, and he is one of
the lords kind of, so just make him happy, you know.
So it the embarrassment just kind of rolled away.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
Well, you didn't want to be like Michael David King
David's wife in the Bible exactly, this guy out here
looking like an idiot. There you go, and then he's
like your womb is stone. Yeah, whatever. It was like Yeah,
so you had that type of stuff in your head
where it's like, wow, it's weird. I don't get it,
but again I better get with it, like this is

(45:46):
what's happening, Like I don't want to be left behind.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
That was a good observation, very much like that.

Speaker 6 (45:53):
Here is Song of Solomon two ten in the Passion version. Arise,
my dearest, Hurry, my darling, come away with me. I
have come as you have asked, to draw you to
my heart and lead you out. For now is the time,
my beautiful one. As I read that last sentence, for
now is the time, the spirit of the Lord fell
upon me, communicating that this is the time, the appointed

(46:16):
and defining time for our ministry to arise in anointing
in the power of Elisha, every person will look past
the flesh and fall intensely in love with the Lord
in them. Since the Lord lives in each one of us.
There is a blazing love affair between the bridegroom, who
we are as his passionate bride, and each of us.
There is our love for him and his love for us,

(46:37):
and both yearn for the other, as if with unquenchable thirst.
The Lord is going to bring that same passionate even
reckless love from brother to brother, from sister to sister,
and between brother and sister. What we acted out and
experienced on the last great day of the feast. Since
the time God me, God had me have brethren to embrace,

(47:00):
love on and blessed one another, has prepared us for
this time. This is what our Father wants every Sabbath
and all the time, people loving on each other, nurturing
one another, sitting and resting on one another between services,
with no fear of what it may appear as. If
some are too uncomfortable, then they are just not chosen

(47:21):
or have not or have been rejected to be a
part of this end time work. It's God's sure and
true will, and everything both for each person and our
ministry depends on it. It will come to pass, and
it will not be difficult because God is not reviving us,
though we've prayed for revival. He is as he is

(47:42):
birthing in Elisha Ministry and us. We will all become
a new creation. He's already started with me. I am
not who I was, and those who yield will be
transformed with no shackles of the past in themselves. Or
in their view of their brethren. It's glorious indeed, and
exceedingly powerful. The Lord spoke plainly to me and said,
this is new wine that I am pouring out, and

(48:05):
it cannot be received and old wine skins. Old wine
skins cannot contain the power of a double portion of
the anointing of Elijah that was bestowed upon Elisha. The
mantle has fallen to us at such a time, at
such a time, and perhaps the mantle itself will rest
in abide in Matthew the temples. God has given me

(48:26):
these essentials. New wine cannot be contained in old wine skins.
This is a new thing. Do not look back, Do
not despise the day of small things. YadA YadA. The
Lord told me to stop talking YadA YadA yah. Told
me to stop talking about and pining away for Solomon's temple.
I asked what that meant, and he said, you are
praying for me to raise the dead with revival. But
it is it was my will that Solomon's temple was destroyed,

(48:49):
even to the uprooting of the foundational stones. That temple
is the glory of the Crusade Church at its peak.
And you're trying to rebuild what I tore down. As
I sent the Lion of Babylon to destroy Solomon's temple,
I had granted to the lion Satan to wound and
drag many of you away in order to destroy that temple.

(49:09):
I think, what's interesting one thing I noticed, and that
was that, you know, in saying if any of you
are uncomfortable with this, then here's what that means. That
also then creates a situation where we are not honest
with each other necessarily. You know, Sandy and I were

(49:33):
good friends, and I didn't know exactly how you felt.
But looking back, I'm thinking, well, of course not, because
we informed on each other and you know, or we're
expected to at times, and so you know, putting it

(49:57):
out there like that can also just be away to
keep everybody quiet and not really talking about what's happening,
because you weren't going to sit down at a lunch
table and somebody say, what is going on here? What
was that? Because we were all, you know, we were

(50:20):
certainly all trying to get on board. And Dad came
up with this fiery arrow teaching at some point, and
he said to me, people have to stop dodging the
arrow because everybody just didn't get on board at once

(50:41):
and it wasn't going the way he wanted, so he
started getting frustrated. And that's the way he saw it was,
I'm trying to accomplish something here, and you all need
to really get accept this, except that Sasha is a
really key figure here that God always used the people
that you would not expect. But it was more of

(51:04):
the I was just thinking of the Bite Model episode
you guys did, where it just describes and explains more
of how these tactics that are so common in these
types of groups. Describing discomfort was something that is completely
new and a complete departure from what you have been

(51:25):
taught for in some cases decades. Then something's wrong with you.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
You're the problem, and that interpretation I think he shared
that kind of was part of the kickoff to this
whole thing. Am I remembering that yactly? Like I said earlier,
I remember the first first Sabbath where it really was
a noted like a major shift, was you know, in

(51:55):
mid August of twenty nineteen, and I think the week
prior to that was when maybe he had shared that
and some things that started to happen and Sandy. That's
where you can kind of talk about your recollection of
the week leading up to really that first Sabbath where
there was a major change, and you already talked about

(52:16):
like the procession of entering the sanctuary with the song
eight or nine times, but it was the week leading
up to that where it really like the kickoff for that.
So what do you remember about that?

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Yeah, I wish that I was there, because I almost was.
I'd be able to have a greater insight into what
actually happened. But I think we have put it together
enough to know that that was the catalyst for the
red the last days of the Crusade church. So as
far as I remember it, either the church page that

(52:51):
we have on Facebook was kicking off, which I think
it was, but I think I found out through Jen
who called or texted and said, do you know what's
going on over at Dad's house? And I said, yeah, yeah,
it's by the looks of it, it's getting pretty crazy
over there. And I was always kind of apprehensive to

(53:13):
moves of God because I had never really experienced anything
like that, although I really did want to, but I
was kind of afraid. I was driving around the area
a small town thinking you could just go over there
right now, just pull up and just peek your head in.
And you know, but the more that I was understanding
about what was taking place there, the more apprehensive I got.

(53:35):
And you know, I was just stalling because I didn't
really want to be a part of that, because what
was taking place was a lot of affection between people
that you know, you got a farmer in there, you
got a young thirty year old athletic build guy, you
got a young teenage girl, like, I don't want to
be a part of this. We're all going to be

(53:55):
laying on top of each other and just going, oh, man,
I love you, like I'm gonna have to act that
out and I will do it it's necessary, but I
do not want to do it. There's like a limit,
there's a point of uncomfortability that I'm just I just
can't do it. And so we started seeing pictures like
that that were surfacing, right, I think that picture surface

(54:16):
in the within the hour of all these posts, and
you look at that and go, no.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
I just was that.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
It was a picture of five or six, four or
five people of different walks of life, all kind of
huddle up on each other just smiling and just loving
on each other. There's the golden love of the Lord,
you know, on them. And there was some pretty wacky
stuff going on in there, as far as I remember.
One thing that was not It was upsetting to one

(54:47):
of the members in a major way. And he's very
close to me. He's he's about thirty four years old.
There was another woman in the church that we'll call
Alex and and your father said to this older man,
behold your bride, and then it made his arm, you know, like,

(55:12):
behold your bride, Alex, this is your bride. And this
man was extremely confused by what he meant meant by
it and actually was trying to get clarification throughout the day, weeks, months,
like what was he saying? Was he he wasn't meaning
that right? I mean, she's like seventeen for sixteen or

(55:32):
something at the time, and that always really really bothered him.
And that's totally inappropriate to be Nobody really knows what
was going on with that. We think it's it's probably
more of a spiritual lesson in it all. And that's
the thing that's so sick about all this is that
you can basically do whatever you want and then just

(55:53):
blanket it with your Oh no, it's a spiritual thing,
like you just you do it. There's any rule like this,
there's just tons and tons and tons of ammunition because
there's there's nothing to stop you. You can just always
change the rules.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
And not only could one do that, that was Yeah,
it wasn't just like oh this is dangerous, like no,
it was used in that way exactly.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
So I remember coming in at the tail end of
that love display and I was hoping that it would
be over, and it was, but I also kind of
wanted there to maybe God would cause give me some
lightning or something, you know. But you know, your dad
had a big old smile on his face and he

(56:40):
was kind of just describing to me what was taking
place in there, and it was surreal. And I felt
like we all knew at that point from hearing this
message that that Jen just read that it was going
to be different now, and then it sure was. The
next Sabbath service was never the same, and then the

(57:01):
rules changed, you know, from week to week to week,
and it's just got real loopy.

Speaker 5 (57:07):
So what was a typical service like then, Like what
was the schedule or the itinerary with the new change.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
Yeah, well, I guess you know, the viewers don't know,
but the church services before the change were extremely long.
You'd get there at ten and you'd wrap things up
around three or four. That's outrageous, you know, most but
we would always make the case that you know, we're

(57:38):
we're doing God's work here for far longer than these
Sunday churches that are you know, three or for a
half an hour. Then they're able to get into the
buffet at the Golden Corral. You know, we would constantly
do that kind of stuff, constantly be harping on the
people that were there for an hour. You know.

Speaker 5 (57:56):
That was something talked about even in the Worldwide Church
of God because those services were long as well, and
it was always a comparison to Protestant churches and how
they were just in and out and they weren't really learning,
these weren't real sermons. So it sounds like Dad really

(58:17):
went a little more extreme than Worldwide did. Yeah, with
the length, but the same concept.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Yep. So the services were still very long, except now
you entered God's courts or the Crusade Church in a
different way, in a very celebratory way that was very
uncomfortable in the beginning, but then I certainly, I mean,
you can go back and look at some of our

(58:46):
messages from that time and go with this guy's insane.
I mean, I was people would be taking their seats
and I was still up on the stage a few times,
dancing and singing to the music. Just don't care what
it looks like. Just I was really trying to embrace that.
Part of that was that in my personality, I really
wanted to I've kind of always wanted to be special,
you know, and I'm like, well, maybe I'll be seen

(59:07):
as me as special. Maybe Larry will notice this young
man's got quite an annoyed I'll elevate him to my
second chief or whatever. You know. A lot of that
was going on, no doubt about it. But I think
that the services did get extended, but just with a
whole bunch of extra kooky stuff. Certainly in the beginning,

(59:30):
and then after our lunch came second praise service, which
was which was insane. You know, that was that could
be two hours, three hours long.

Speaker 4 (59:43):
Yeah, I could just you know, when our normal structure
before this changed just generally and if I miss something,
you guys can fill in, but just so people know,
Like I think, we started off with the hymns, right,
and then we would have man, I've already forgotten the order,

(01:00:03):
was it sermonettes? Yeah, and sometimes it would be too
you know, short sermonettes, and then we had reading of
the psalm I think, and then as the psalm's being read,
the worship team takes the stage, and that was usually
thirty five to forty five minute you know, song service,
and then we would have announcements, which often those would

(01:00:28):
go I mean thirty minutes, but that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Was sometimes it's just a message in itself.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
Oh yeah, absolutely, and a lot of really wild stuff
during this particular time was said during that portion. Like
it wasn't a message, it was just time for announcements
and then let's get into some weird stuff. And then
we would have special music, usually two or three, and

(01:00:54):
then the sermon would begin, and that typically, if if
it was Dad giving the sermon hour and a half
hour twenty kind of where it would be. It would vary,
but that was typical. And then we would have closing
prayer and then go to have pot luck, and then
we would reconvene at three correct to have there'd be

(01:01:17):
women's Bible study and then men's Bible study separately, and
that typically was an hour. We didn't do that every
single Sabbath, but usually and then after that there would
be you know, people would be hanging around. So it
was not unusual at all for people to be there
from nine thirty to five six like that was normal.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
It was like an all day thing. Now when it changed.
That was where Dad would deliver a list of songs
that he wanted and we would all gather in the
kind of lobby area that's outside of the sanctuary and
listen to these songs as I played them loudly through

(01:02:00):
the speakers in the sanctuary, and it would usually, I think,
be like a three or four song list, and then
there was one particular song that was like the entrance song,
and that one like at that at the beginning, like
we were listening to that like repeatedly, and then we
would to that song enter into the sanctuary, down the

(01:02:22):
aisle slowly and make our way to the stage. And
that was always led by Sasha waving. So that there
was something about that and maybe we can get into
that and if we can remember, But there was some
significance to like the color of the flag, some spiritual
meaning from some prophecy or something to that effect, but

(01:02:44):
that Sasha would lead the way with the flag with
Dad and then other people behind. We would make our
way up to the stage and then listen to that song,
often multiple times, and and like if anybody wants to,
you can go check out like the live streams. We
weren't streaming the.

Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
Music because we couldn't, but like you would just see
us up on the stage for a very long time, yeah,
you know. And then at the early goings of the
Love Move, which is kind of what we were calling
it at that time, the services did not have a
normal structure. I think it settled into a new structure

(01:03:23):
at some point, but it was just kind of everything
was different and new, which I think was by design.
But anyway, that's a long winded way to kind of
show the difference between what it was and what it became.
But it was completely everything about it was different, not
just structurally, but what we were doing and you know,
your loving on each other doesn't matter what it looks like,

(01:03:45):
was a huge component of this. I think for me,
the major component that was said ad Nauseam yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
I mean, if anybody wanted to check out some of
those photos, it would be really easy to find. Maybe
you can even offer some. Yeah, but they're those first
weeks when we're all up on the stage. It looks
as if there's a hole that God cut out of
the roof and we're all looking at him right. Unbelievable
because I don't think anybody I can't say that, but
for certainly myself, I was just emulating everyone else, going,

(01:04:18):
you see what he's doing, do that. We were all
having to do that because keep in mind, Larry's always
scanning the room, you know, he's scanning, so I don't
want to be the one face he looks at and
he goes, Sandy, we need to talk after, you know.
So everyone is just it's unbelievable these photos, as if
God is just smiling down on us. And it really

(01:04:41):
does make me upset seeing those photos, and I wish
that they wouldn't be posted ever again. Sandy, would you
like to dance with Alex No, go on ahead, Okay.

Speaker 5 (01:04:57):
Yeah, I mean that's a good point that he's doing
doing this with a teenage girl, and that's so incredible.

Speaker 6 (01:05:06):
And let me tell you it, Dad, if he felt
like there was a young person, usually a woman, who
was like at risk, you know, like, uh, oh she's
started in college, she's going to meet somebody. Oh oh,
they're they're going to get a real job, they're going
to be out in the world. He would start matchmaking.
What the craziness of this the out it's outrageous. It's like,

(01:05:32):
you know, I want to.

Speaker 4 (01:05:33):
Scream it so that people understand, like, here's how fucking
nuts it was.

Speaker 6 (01:05:37):
I know there was too much. And also it's what
he said, like the story, the dream of the reckoning,
the vision of the reckoning, the the the lion and stuff.
You want to like tell that and say like this
is what he was saying, but why he was saying it,
what he was accomplishing through these dreams, visions, prophecies, stories,

(01:05:59):
that's important.

Speaker 5 (01:06:00):
What he was doing to people bringing it back to
these are called tactics exactly. That's the points like you've
done that a few times.

Speaker 6 (01:06:09):
That's like I thought that was.

Speaker 4 (01:06:11):
A couple even like the I talked about the music
thing and.

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
Then yes, yeah, yeah, but all of these things. What
stands out to me is that so she's supposed to
be this important figure in all of this and integral
to this end time work that's happening, and yet Dad
is sequestering her off to the side. It's is it

(01:06:36):
ever with mom involved? Is it ever with mom in
the in the room or like it's always in some
kind of weird, secret, private manner. Yes, and that is
so suspect. Yes, Why would it need to be that way?
Why would you need to separate that from your wife?

(01:06:56):
Why would you need to go behind closed lock doors.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Well that's what was never explained, and everyone was just
supposed to go all right. So he had already set
up the pattern, and she.

Speaker 5 (01:07:07):
Was special like she was receiving messages.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
Of course, but you you questioned the pattern, and then
you're gonna be one of the ones on the list
that says you're not ready for this great move. Everyone
shut up, and then when people did start talking, then
that's when everything fell apart, like it took nothing for
it to fall apart. One person said something's going wrong,

(01:07:31):
and then it was done, like in a week, seriously,
it was so fast. How and then everyone went why
have I stayed? I remember thinking why am I here?
This is outrageous that I'm here. And then of course
we did Crusade Church two point zero, which was really pathetic,
but it was unbelievable how quickly it changed. And then
everyone's thinking like, why did we not do something? But

(01:07:53):
he had the patterns one speak.

Speaker 6 (01:07:55):
Yeah, we were all seeing it. And right there on
December seventh, we watched him walk up to Mom, get
in her face and say go stand somewhere else. I
was standing right beside her, and so Is said, you
miss that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
I must have been over here, because then I saw
I must have turned around, And then I thought, what
the hell happened in here? Something happened, And then I
quickly found out what happened because I'm friends with her
and I know what happened in the parking lot with
Michael and her and all this stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:08:25):
But yeah, I'm so angry that he thought he was
anything at all, Like he's nothing. Don't put that in there.
I don't need to be really extra mean. But he's
just a person. Where does he get off thinking can
treat people like this and treat Mom like she's property.
That is the kind of thing that just like, I

(01:08:47):
don't feel like super angry about him unless I think
about specific things like that, especially with Mom. Just use
an abuse her.

Speaker 6 (01:09:02):
Like that, Oh, and just humiliate her in front of her.

Speaker 5 (01:09:09):
Yes, like I feel like I hate him.

Speaker 6 (01:09:11):
And he blamed her for that event. He turned that
on her so fast that day you stormed out. You.

Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
We will have to bring that up because that is
a classic narcissistic exactly. Yes, it's the gas lighting. It
isn't making you think you're crazy? And oh I did?
I like, how did that happen? You have to retell
the story to yourself.

Speaker 6 (01:09:42):
So we described some of the new behaviors that Dad
had and what was expected then of the church, out
of everyone if you wanted to really remain in good
standing and be a part of this thing that was happening,
that was very intense. That should be said. I think

(01:10:02):
so of you covered that. I think you know, we
can just speculate and I definitely have on why he
kind of keyed in on certain things. And Sasha in
particular struggled with her mental health and she kind of

(01:10:22):
discovered on her own that she fit the profile of
someone with borderline personality disorder and then just kind of
dove into the research on that and shared it with
our family, and it fit. And there is something about
the mix of narcissistic traits and those types of personalities

(01:10:45):
with borderlines. There's an intensity to those relationships. And I
think that she in particular offered Dad supply in that
she would hang on his every word. And you know,
I think you said it, Matt. We had grown up

(01:11:05):
and we were had our own families and lives, and
we were stable and generally happy. And Sasha moved from
crisis to crisis, and Dad got involved and started helping

(01:11:26):
her work through these things in her life. And you know,
we can't get inside that relationship. Those doors were locked
where they would meet or when they would go drive
up through the mountains for hours at a time alone.
But it sure does appear that Dad's kind of directive

(01:11:52):
for all of the members of the church to have
this new heightened love of physicality and affection with each
other was a cover and kind of a permission for
him to do the same. We wouldn't know what happened

(01:12:14):
behind those closed doors, because even though he preached for
years and years and years that he would never counsel
a woman alone, and he always had my mom alongside
him always special important meetings. Mom was there. She might
not say a word, she was always present. And this
was a radical shift and we all felt it, but

(01:12:41):
it was what we were all supposed to be doing.
Dad was not reprimanding people for doing what, you know,
the week before would have been frowned upon, and so
it kind of just gave him permission to engage in

(01:13:01):
this just inappropriately close relationship, don't I don't really think
I understand or have even a strong opinion on why
exactly that was happening and what they were each getting
out of it. But I know that there was a
lot of manipulation going on, and I know that from

(01:13:22):
things that Dad told me about their dynamic. He just
he's somehow And this is my opinion, but I perceived
that Dad enjoyed putting people in a state to where
they would be kind of desperate for him. Absolutely I

(01:13:43):
experienced that same. Okay, yes, he would put me on
ice and he would just let me sweat, you know,
while he ignored me, knowing that I was desperate to
get in touch with him because I knew he was
upset and I wanted to make it right or whatever.
And I think he could do that so easily with Sasha,

(01:14:03):
And there was something about how frantic she would get
and you know, and so they somehow in these meetings.
The way that it was related to us is they
were feeding off of one another. And so you know,

(01:14:24):
just like you guys described like dim lights and emotional
music and late nights and long services, they all do
something to achieve this certain goal to get you in
a certain state. And I think your.

Speaker 5 (01:14:45):
Exhausted, your defenses are down, yes, and you're very, very
susceptible to suggestion.

Speaker 6 (01:14:53):
And so I know people who had lots of auditory
visual types of what they would probably call hallucinations or
something of the like, well they would have called them
visions then they would now they would call them, right
is something else? But yes, just they can't really stand

(01:15:17):
but behind them. But at the time, yeah, you know,
I saw this and I felt this, and I think
I heard this, and so yeah, Dad and Sasha get
in the room together and she says, you know, there's
something about there's something about a serpent that's trying to
harm you. And then Dad comes up with, Aha, it's

(01:15:40):
that guy. And he then sends us all a message
about this one particular guy who had come around the
church now and then who he didn't want anybody to
have any contact with, you know, or she says, I
feel like I see a highway and Dad, yeah, yeah,
there's a Highay, it's a highway of holiness, and we're

(01:16:03):
going to go down that road together. It's just it's
on and on, but it's you know, there are, as
has been stated, too many things, to too many examples,
and too many stories, and too many dreams and visions
to get into. But I think now it's pretty easy
to look back on each of them individually and be

(01:16:25):
able to kind of parse out what was at the
heart of those things and what Dad was actually trying
to do. And when I say trying to do, I
don't have I don't know how aware he was of
what he was doing. I think, as you said, Ash,

(01:16:46):
that he was a victim in a way of his
own delusions. You know, he believed the things that he
was saying, but but there was no way for him
to carry on a relationship with this woman in the

(01:17:07):
way that it turned out to be without shifting things
in the church in a big way. So he did
that and then the things that followed, you know, insisting
that we accept her and finding different as a family member. Okay,
we loved her. But he was insisting, you know, he

(01:17:30):
and he made promises to her. You know, you'll be
at family dinner, You'll have a seat at the table.
It's just it got really bizarre and it was wildly
uncomfortable for the entire family, some more than others. But
I bore witness up close to Mom's acute suffering during

(01:17:55):
this time because of this relationship. And Dad said to
me once that the hardest part of this whole thing
is the pain that Mom's in, as if he wasn't
on his own inflicting the pain. Yeah, by publicly disrespecting

(01:18:21):
her and replacing her with someone else, and a younger
woman at that. She was humiliated, and.

Speaker 5 (01:18:30):
No empathy, no whatsoever, no consideration for the impact it was.

Speaker 6 (01:18:37):
Having on her. It was in word only. That's why
I say. He said to me this, the hardest part
is the pain Mom's in. But he wouldn't change it.

Speaker 5 (01:18:49):
But was he saying this part for him was that
Mom was in pain?

Speaker 6 (01:18:55):
Yes, yeah, yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 4 (01:19:02):
So.

Speaker 6 (01:19:02):
With Dad's kind of directive in proclamation of what we
were to do as a church and how things were
to radically change to accommodate this new ministry that God
was birthing in us. It was kind of the perfect
cover for the behavior that he was exhibiting with Sasha.

(01:19:28):
This move in the church started with the interpretation of
this dream that Dad had had the year prior, which
was not unusual, this happened on occasion, but this one
in particular held the power to radically change the church
in foundational ways, and that came out in some of
the things that Dad wrote to us that were from God.

(01:19:54):
He said, he gave us these new rules, and he said,
God call it new wine. And this was a new thing,
a new ministry, and it was basically the feel of
it to me looking back, was that we were expected
to just buckle up because we were on this ride

(01:20:16):
and wherever it took us, we were supposed to just
sit tight and basically be on board with whatever happened
and to trust him at the helm. And there were
just things that were being set up to excuse certain

(01:20:40):
behaviors that would never have been acceptable or accepted. You know,
someone would have spoken up, I would say. But really,
those first few messages and that dream were just the
beginning of what was to come. If you liked this

(01:21:01):
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