March 5, 2025 • 35 mins
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In Ep. 54: "Heavy Petting & Getting Weird," our final conversation with Naomi Wright, we explore the path Crusade Church was on and how it reflected the patterns she experienced growing up in her father’s cult. She shares her perspective on the warning signs of high-control groups, the recurring tactics of spiritual abuse, and the lasting effects on those trapped within them.
Don’t miss this insightful discussion connecting past experiences to present dangers.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
In Ep. 54: "Heavy Petting & Getting Weird," our final conversation with Naomi Wright, we explore the path Crusade Church was on and how it reflected the patterns she experienced growing up in her father’s cult. She shares her perspective on the warning signs of high-control groups, the recurring tactics of spiritual abuse, and the lasting effects on those trapped within them.
Don’t miss this insightful discussion connecting past experiences to present dangers.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Ribert's
w Armstrong and.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I am here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
He's making through me.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
The Lord let me experience what it is to be
a new bride.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Worried about what I'm about to say, though it may
be graphic.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're coming to the Lord and if you can.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Take it, beyond the veil is the chamber.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, the sins that they are holding back
in their life. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the
Colt Nex Store Podcast. I am Maddie Lassater. Before we
(00:58):
get started with today's episode, want to remind everyone, as always,
go and follow us on our socials, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
We also have a new way that you can connect
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(01:19):
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Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's a super super easy little link to use. It
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Also want to do our double Portion club shout outs
real quick. We have Shanda and Chase. Sometimes I would
(02:01):
say Chase and Shanda, We're gonna fight the patriarchy. We're
gonna go Shanda and Chase for today. Thank you both
for supporting the podcast. Also Heather Bartlett and then Carla,
thank all of you for supporting the podcast. It means
a lot to Ashley and I and we're very grateful
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it's only ten dollars a month. You get AD free
(02:23):
episodes and the shout out as well as a sticker
I'll send to you. And then if you want to
do a five dollars a month to support the work,
you'll get AD free episodes and we'll send you the
cool holographic sticker. Just no shout out for the five
dollar people. Sorry, rules or rules right. And lastly, I
want to read a quick review. This is from Smiley
(02:43):
Netta and this says I have not experienced all the
same traumas of the host, but many experiences and feelings
resonate deeply with me. I am grateful to feel less
alone while I unpack growing up in high control religion.
Thank you, no, thank you very much of that review.
And I'm glad that the podcast has had a positive
impact to you and has been meaningful for you, and
(03:06):
we're again we're very very grateful for that. And to
hear from people you know on a regular basis that
it's helpful to them. Okay, so today's episode we've got
our final episode for now with Naomi, right. We actually
had her talk a little bit about Crusade Church and
the information that she has about that and the direction
(03:28):
that Crusade Church was headed, and kind of looking at
that through the lens of what she experienced in her
father's cult. And if you've listened to the previous two episodes,
you'll get why that would make sense that she could
have some insight there. So she kind of looked at
that from a different angle than maybe we could or
most people could, and kind of highlight some of the
(03:49):
differences and some of the similarities there.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So let's take a listen.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Okay, So you've listened to our podcast from the beginning,
so you kind of know the evolution of our family's
progression from one cult to another, and our dad starting
his own cult and then several years in turning to
(04:14):
this love move where he was encouraging you know, touching
and hugging and intimacy between members. And I know it
was a question on everyone's mind when I first reconnected
(04:34):
with the family, like what was going on, Why was
he doing this? Where was this going? And I know
that you have some thoughts on that, and I thought
I would love to hear those.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
They made it through the grape vine.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Was totally normal and nothing was going to happen, right, just.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Genuine love of a non platonic kind. Though, you know
something I've actually wanted to ask you to because I'm
just curious now that that's happened, Like, you know, kind
of the climax of the situation, are you guys, Like,
similarly to how I've looked back and been able to
(05:19):
connect previous things, if you guys had that experience, like
was it really totally out of nowhere? Like did this
really like kind of just pop up? This love cul
aspect of it, love moved aspect or like I know
you shared Ashley, And I'm not asking for specifics, but
like how you had Like you can think of some
moments similarly to me where you're like, oh, that just
fell off or that felt I guess I'm just wondering,
(05:41):
Like I look back and I can see, no, there
were some indicators along the way that just weren't big
enough to blow it up for me.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yet, what do you think.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
I don't think I have to the extent of what
you were talking about in yours. Sure, I think most
of my The work that I've done thinking about it
has been more it's not old stuff, it's more trying
to understand, like why did this happen when it happened?
Not really like what were the hints further back that
(06:17):
makes sense? Like I think we've talked about it a
little bit, like you know, Dad giving that message however
longer you know, before the love move where he was
clearly dissatisfied, that kind of stuff, trying to figure out like, okay,
what was the trigger that made this.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Happen when it did?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
But not so much kind of hints. I don't think
I've done enough of that work yet within myself.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And for me, just because the dad that I knew
that I grew up with was not that. Like I
remember him doing piano lessons for some girls and he
would always have me or my mom in the room
(07:03):
and he said, it's because you know, you didn't want
to give the appearance of evil, and like that was
like a protective thing for him in case you were
ever to be accused of something. And so to hear
that that is the direction that they started going in
was wild to me. I was like, what happened and
(07:27):
just based on what all of you have said. I
just think it may just literally come down to he
had an attraction for this person, he wanted her, and
he figured out a way to manipulate scripture, to bring
(07:47):
everybody else on board and make this something almost like
everybody's doing it. We're all doing this thing, and then
it doesn't look weird that he's doing it. But I
firmly believe that this was a trajectory. I don't think
you guys like hit home base. I think it was
(08:12):
still happening and where that would have gone, like I
can only guess, Yeah, I mean it was heading towards
religious orgies.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yes, is like, I mean, that's what it sounds like,
and so yeah, stepping I mean, I think similarly to
how it's taken me longer than maybe others who would
have asked me questions about my story to be like okay, yeah,
like no, my dad was a pedophile. He was to
be able to really like grasp those things and then
to be able to say them. I think it's we
(08:45):
have those additional challenges when it's our own story. And
so as I've followed along and listened to the podcast
and had conversations, for me having the lens that I have.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
From what my.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Experiences are, it sounds like it's not a hop, skip
and a jump, like it's they're just holding hands. I mean,
it's so similar in the motivation. It sounds like as
well as in like you just shared Ashley, that like
we're gonna make this a movement, Like we're gonna make
(09:18):
this okay for everyone. This isn't just gonna be like
an affair behind closed doors, Like no, I've got enough
power and control to be able to head this in
a direction where I can just outright do whatever I
want to do and where it would go from there.
I mean, I have a hard time believing it would
have stopped with one woman, because this wasn't like him
(09:40):
and my dad took many wives, so it wasn't he
didn't stop for him at like one or two women either.
But this wasn't even It wasn't taking a wife either,
and again he still could have taken more. It was
just more of this openness like this just you know,
being called love, but I think it really was more
about sexual openness and which we're not talking about that.
(10:04):
I'm like, well, that would be a whole separate conversation,
like I'm not saying like there can't be I'm saying,
in this environment of what's happening, like this is so
wrong and overlies to cover up for which I think
again is just for their evidence that yeah, he had
an end goal, like similar to my dad. I when
(10:24):
I hear about your dad, there's that similarity of we
both like they both wanted something and they were going
to use the power and influence that they had and
the control they had over others to make sure that
they got it. And just like my dad then said
other men could do the same, your dad was saying,
we can all do the same. And so it's not
(10:46):
just exclusive, it's.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Not just for me.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Maybe that would raise more flags or cause more issues.
And it's being painted in this again it's not the
stories that you've shared about like what love move actually
looked like, Like that's that's not actually like appropriate fondness
being shown between parties, like in any kind of environment,
(11:10):
like there isn't heavy petting and sitting on laps and
all of this stuff going on. It's not just like
an in a church. It's weird. It's like it's just weird, Yeah, anywhere,
Like it's just weird. And so go ahead, Yeah, it's
not love.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
It's almost like, you know, the approximation of what somebody
who doesn't know what love is looks like.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Because when I look back on and now, it's like.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Well, yeah, that's all you think of it as ye're
heavy petting and getting weird, not actual love, you know what,
you call it the love move. So it's interesting to
look at it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Now from that lens.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, there are groups too. I've come alongside some people
who have come out of groups where they take like
Jesus is the groom and the church is the bride,
and they make it very literal and it isctualized, and
so they are being sexually intimate with themselves or with
others and believing it's like with Jesus, and so this
(12:08):
whole thing gets sexualized. And that sounds very similar as well,
like where this was heading. I don't recall to what
extent Jesus and bride and group like if any of
that was at play, like I remember right at least
some of it, and so just I could I could
just see within as little as like months where there
(12:31):
would have been like actual sexual activity like happening in
the sanctuary and saying, this is us being intimate with
our God and this is okay, and this is I
don't pro tip for anyone who wants to be a
cult leader. You can't move that fast.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And I think that was.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Where your dad dropped the ball, Like he got too
he was chopping at the bit too much for what
he wanted, and he moved it way too a few
months or something, wasn't it, Like it escalated fast, so
like followers can't keep up at that kind of speed.
I'm glad he did it too fast, because you know,
it all dismantled. So I'm so glad that happened. I
(13:11):
don't think it would have been caught in the same
way had it been more slow, But had it worked
at that pace, I don't see how it would have
been more than another like six months before, it would
have been just full blown religious orgies like I don't
even know what the technical term.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
And COVID, I mean, if COVID hadn't happened, I don't
know how that would have gone. But it is kind
of amazing that he pushed that so hard and my mom,
our mom was struggling so much with that, and he
didn't even try to finesse that situation at all. It
was just like, this is what's happening. And I always
(13:47):
wondered if he just is relying on the belief that
everyone had that he is God's prophet, He's receiving these
revelations from God, which I was going to ask you
when your dad was coming up with revelations or new
beliefs or whatever it was, how was he receiving that,
(14:08):
oh from God, like dreams or like visions or like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
He had some some were dreams, somehow weren't. I wouldn't say,
my my memory is I don't think they were predominantly dreams.
It was so it was more like Brenham, where Brenham
would claim to just like be hearing, like he would
just know. It was more of this just like knowing
(14:39):
like sent me this, Yeah, like I just know, like
I'm receiving receiving a message. It never happened like in
the moment like that, but that kind of idea.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
And so it was more of I just yes, like.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
In prayer, in reading God's word or in.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
Like I just know that this is it.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So he didn't even have to You didn't even have
to work that hard to like have dreams or makeup dreams,
or it could just be like what he thought and
then just claim that thought came from God.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I think Dad kind of did all of it.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, I was gonna say with Dad, especially towards the
end the love move part, like he would be in
a conversation. Not that this happened often with me or anything,
but I saw this happen. He'd be in conversation with
somebody and then like stop them and like do this
kind of thing, close his eyes and put his head
back and say, like the Lord's speaking to me right now. Stuff,
(15:33):
and then after five minutes or whatever, then you know,
recount what the Lord had told him about whatever that was.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
But this also goes back, I think to that performative
aspect is that he loved attention. I mean that's like,
I mean, without it, like he's nothing right and that
is like everything to him, which goes back to this
woman that he was getting involved with. I don't know
(16:04):
which came first. He wanted to be with someone else
or she's giving him the attention, and then that turns
into I want to be with her. But she was
definitely feeding him narcissistic supply big time.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
Oh, she was literally feeding him as well.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
I remember she was literally feeding him.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
She was feeding him supply and soup.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Well in some of that, I mean, she's the one
who has to nurse him. She's My heart just breaks
for your mom.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Oh yeah, yeah, I can't how awful.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And I think of my mom too, of course, with
like all the other women. Just people are so selfish sometimes.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, and that like you were talking about your dad
having genuine emotion and you could tell like sometimes I
was coming from a place really deep. I feel like
we saw a dad do that as well. It really
can mess with your head and confuse you when when
(17:15):
it's just no one. I just always came out of
this saying like no one is all good or all bad.
I mean, there it. He did horrible things, but I
know there were human moments. I guess that's what I'm
trying to say. Yeah, it just makes it hard.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
Yeah, and I've agreed. I agree.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I have agreed for a long time with what you're
saying of like, people aren't all good or all bad.
I do believe at this point though, people can very
heavily lean in one.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Direction or the other.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, for sure, And that's but that's something like I didn't,
you know. I was more like no, it just felt
more like a mixed a little bit more balanced a
little and I'm like, yeah, I know, it's really not
like it's not for him, like it's the heavily bad.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
I mean, you have to dig, like I have.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
To dig hard to find the goodness, because even there
can be so much bad that the stuff that is
more good again it's called into question, like was that
self serving? I mean, was that even genuine? I mean,
what do I do with it? I have all this
evidence of all these other things that weren't And so
I'm kind of at a point, I think right now
in my own like kind of making sense again with
(18:27):
having newer information come out of man, I don't I
think there were some genuine moments like there's this picture
of my dad like holding me when I was too
and dancing with me till I fell asleep, and he
wrote this release Sweet Palm about it, and he actually
kept it in his Bible. I think that was genuine
when I was that little, Like, I think that was
(18:48):
for real. But what plans did he have for me?
I don't know, you know, Like it's still like begs
some questions. But yeah, when I look at or think
about the story of your dad's rejectory, I think that
what throws me about it and it should it, Like,
I get it. People have affairs at certain stages of
life or there there's a specific person that catches their attention,
(19:11):
and it seems.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Like he had made it so long without letting that in.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
How old was he?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
He is seventy right now, so whatever in sixties, So
it just seems like, gosh, he made it so far
without something like that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
It's just why now. But he did also have that
power in that control that hadn't been built up, and
so then it just spirals of well, no, I want this,
and people get cocky and they think they can get it,
and then they can get sloppy. It's like people who
have you know, they say that about criminals, like, oh,
they'll get sloppy after awhile because they'll get too confident.
(19:51):
And I think there's a similarity.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I think that's exactly it. Because in the Worldwide Church
of God, he believed that Herbert Armstrong was you know,
god spokesperson basically in the leader of the One True Church,
and I think it was enough for him at that
time in his life to just know that he was
quote unquote called by God and that he was part
(20:16):
of the group that God had specifically chosen for this time,
and that was good enough for him, and he fell
in line and he followed the rules, and he was
doing all the things that you were supposed to do.
I definitely noticed a change when the church split and
(20:42):
we started hosting services at our home because it was
our home and that was like his domain. And then
we were one of the first families to leave the
Worldwide Church of God. So as other families trickled out,
they were coming to him as you would do, you know,
(21:02):
just like oh, you know, now I see this, and
so they're just talking to the wee hours of the morning,
and so I think he kind of assumed a bit
of a leadership role in that and felt a little
bit possessive of the group that was meeting at our
house every weekend and we were just playing video sermons
(21:24):
from the headquarters of Global Church of God. But then
when the church grew big enough, they're like, oh, we
have a minister for you now that's going to be
coming twice a month or whatever it was, and that
was just right from the get go not received well
at all. I remember him quabbling about the time of
(21:46):
services and saying, you know, they were changing, that the
new minister was having to go to several different towns
to give sermons on Saturdays, and so we had to
move our service. I don't remember what we moved it to.
Dad made a huge deal out of that, And even
(22:08):
though I was like locked up with him at the moment,
I still thought, what he why is this such a thing,
you know, Like I just felt like he was trying
to like find any way that he could control the situation.
And then, you know, this minister came in. I thought
he was nice, but Dad had a million bad things
(22:29):
to say about him, you know, and and and so
it just kind of Dad was able to justify, well,
we're just gonna have to like have our own group,
you know. And and so he justified that saying, you
know that they were too controlling, and which is just
(22:51):
so funny. And so I kind of think that is
how it all started, with him just a bit of
power and then realizing he likes it and he likes
the people, and then just went from there. Like I
think if Worldwide had never split, he would just still
(23:12):
be That's my personal opinion, he would just still be there.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Probably yeah, yeah, But like you said, he got that
taste for it and saw that people followed, right. I
mean when he let his own like, it wasn't just
immediate family, right, there were other people who.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Right, and he was so like the one thing about
him is he is very convincing. He you can't win
an argument with him. It doesn't matter what it is.
He can be arguing the sky is green, He's gonna
come out on top. It doesn't matter. You can both
(23:50):
be standing up there looking at it. He's so convincing.
I think he had everyone's ear because we would just
like talk all day Saturday and into Saturday night. And
so I think he was able to convince a lot
of the people in the group that this was something
that had to happen, like we had to separate ourselves.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
And yeah, I think that I do think he had
Maybe this is giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I don't know, but had like.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
A I guess his first task was like the self
delusion part, because I I guess this is where the
benefit of the doubt part comes in. Like I feel
like he always had to feel like what he was
saying or doing was genuine and right. I never got
(24:45):
the sense from Dad that he was conniving or scheming
and knew it, at least to the point that he knew,
like I'm manipulating this person and it's not great.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I know. I've talked to my brother Michael about this.
Like Michael thinks that Dad did.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Know he was manipulating and he's probably right, but thought
he was right to do it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
It's like I always had that sense for Dad.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Like he has to think he's genuine and right, which
is an interesting to me, which I know with a
lot of others that maybe is not the case that
they kind of know they're they're just angling to get
what they want. I think he was, but he still
had to like make it where he was really right
in his mind somehow.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, the self delusion is a huge piece of this.
I mean, we've we've debated it. I think he like
really believes. I think he really believes that he is
being persecuted right now and that he is God's servant
on earth, don't. I don't know how Jube.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, I think he thinks of himself in that vain
right now, that's the impression.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
That I'm well, similar to your dad saying I'm going
to be going away for a time. You know, he
was just like, I've had a vision I'm going to
be all alone. Everyone's going to leave me. And so
when all this happened, it's like, well, yeah, there's the
prophecy fulfilled. Everyone has left me, so you know, there's
(26:20):
no reaching out to any of us.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Or right right, which could also set him up to
then have other people join him in the future because
they would feel bad and be like, wow, you know
he really was right. I mean, it kind of gives
him a next step if he wants and if it
would be effective. But and I see that too for
boths where they were just like keeping the door open.
(26:46):
Whether totally intentionally in a calculated way or not, I
don't know, but it does keep the door open. I mean,
it kept in my family people in the same place
waiting for him, the same lifestyles. I mean, I heard
of this is probably like five plus years ago now,
but he had been a kid. Now he's like in
(27:08):
his forties, but someone I grew up with. He had
really wanted to be a medical doctor and was like
mid thirties, upper thirties at that point and still like
working in a grocery store or something, because he was
still waiting, Like just lives just totally wasted.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
It's so sad.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
So I mean, these beliefs, I mean they run deep,
and I think again, like a difference and your story
is how it just came on so quick and it changed,
I mean, and that was able to raise flags for people.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, and a lot of that was tied to our
mom's pain. Cause I think if mom had been more accepting,
I'm not really sure you know how that might have
impacted the rest of the siblings.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Hmm, yeah, if she had just that, I mean, gosh,
I would agree with that for myself, Like had my mom.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
Not been the.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Person, you know, played that role that she did of
like trying to make it okay and trying to you know,
keep peace with the other women and the I don't
know if I would have thought of it in the
same way growing up, right if I had had, I
mean maybe, I mean I have sisters from the other
moms who still, like us thought I don't know, I mean,
(28:34):
if they would still hold that belief of like they
thought it they had thought it was right.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
As far as I know, polygamy is not being practiced
anymore by the group that continues, So I mean that
makes me think that they did retire that anyway. I
don't know that they would actually speak badly of it.
I'm not sure if anyone would take it that far,
but yeah, that is interesting. Like had my mom not
said that, and my dad also said things like if
(29:00):
everyone's actually there's always these like bombs, right that just
make everyone wrong if they don't agree with him, and
it was if if everyone is right with God, then
they will be good with this and it will go
well and it will be so.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Then it was so.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Whenever there would be, you know, dissension, I always thought, well,
they're not right with God, you know, that's why, and
you get all judgy and you and so yeah, like
all these like nets, you know, so that you catch
every every potential disbelief for every potential like pushback that
you can get.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
See, it's things like that, which is obviously extremely familiar,
almost verbatim, that I've heard, But it's things like that
that make you think, at least make me think, well,
maybe I'm wrong about that benefit of the doubt thing.
Like when you hear that, it's like, well, it seems
like they kind of know what they're doing, like they're
sitting in the stage, like people aren't going to be
(29:55):
cool with this thing, So I'm just going to tell
you right up front, like if you're not, something's wrong
with you type thing. Yeah, we heard that so often,
especially at the end. But yeah, it's such it's so complicated,
like to try to think through like I don't know,
like you've said, like people aren't all one thing, but man,
it's true.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Figure, It's so interesting how like cult leaders all have
certain similarities and things in common, and you're just like,
you're not. They're not all reading the handbook on how
to start a cult and operate one, So why do
they all fall into the same similar patterns. It's just
uh and and I think before talking to you, I
(30:34):
just kind of thought, is this is this just part
of the pathology of narcissism? You know, Like I don't know,
like when when it's that extreme and you just want
power at all costs, is this just like kind of
what happens and that's why there's so many similarities. But
(30:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
I mean, there's so stories that I've looked at, including
my own, where I'm like, NPD might be too, this
might be a psychopath, Like we might have something different
even going on, and I've wondered about that as well,
like there there might be more aspects to what's happening.
(31:22):
So yeah, there are these common denominators. And I hear
what you're saying if it's not calculated, if none of
it is an intentional tactic being used, Like how are
all these people genuinely saying the same stuff?
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Is it just like a natural law somehow like water
eroads and these guys do all the same thing.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
It's hard to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And yet I am so glad that none of us
fully understand the head space of a call leader would
probably be them. So I'm like, I am thankful that
I can't totally get it.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Sorry, you're not gonna get what you from.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
My son so, uh so both of his grandfather's like
his dad, my ex husband's dad was a longtime pastor
in LCG and he grew up in it, like he
was literally born in LCG and uh and then our
dad so my son's like, so both of my grandfathers
(32:26):
like somewhat cult leaders like Dad was definitely one and
Carl was part of one, but.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
We don't think it's genetic.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
He was like, it's my destiny. I'm gonna have to
run a cult.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Oh my goodness. Well again, pro tip, don't move too
fast with your watch. You're gonna have to have delayed
gratification or followers will catch.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
On Boil the frog like slowly elevating Temperatures podcast How
to Be Well Dad. You know, Dad had this whole
thing about this demon named Pretense that he was going
(33:10):
to fight on Mountain Nebo and this whole showdown thing.
And so my son is he's he's a digital storytelling
major in h at Mazoo and uh he loves videography
and he wants to create a documentary where he's like
(33:31):
searching for pretense shows like I have to avenge like
for my grandfather to find pretense.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
Oh that's so good.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And being able to laugh about it is so healthy.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
He kind of happy at some point, like I spent
two a lot of years crying about it. So yeah,
but me way, thank you so much for coming. This
is so great.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Oh gosh, absolutely it was fun.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
And like, oh, at the same fun kind of like,
you know, I know it's a.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Mix like that was a fun talk like yeah, but no,
you two.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Are enjoyable people to have a crappy conversation with.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Wow, could you write that out? That would Aside from that,
we're mostly okay.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Whatever it was, we had a one star review.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
We were gonna get I want my shirt, this is
mostly okay podcast.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Mostly okay and interesting, or something like that. We had
a one star review or somebody.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Well mostly okay should be more than one. That would
be not okay at all, I guess.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
But yeah, there's no lower shout out to you, whoever
you are. I don't remember who it was. I hope
you're still listening to.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
If you like this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Ribert's
w Armstrong and.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I am here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
He's making through me.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
The Lord let me experience what it is to be
a new bride.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Worried about what I'm about to say, though it may
be graphic.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're coming to the Lord and if you can.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Take it, beyond the veil is the chamber.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, the sins that they are holding back
in their life. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the
Colt Nex Store Podcast. I am Maddie Lassater. Before we
(00:58):
get started with today's episode, want to remind everyone, as always,
go and follow us on our socials, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
We also have a new way that you can connect
with us we're actually really excited about. You can leave
us a voice message with a question or a comment,
or if you just want to rant about something. You
can do that too, and we may feature it on
the show. You can find that link on our Instagram
(01:19):
bio or what's probably easier is that you can find
the link at the top of the description of the
episode that you're listening to or watching right now. So
if you're on Apple or Spotify or another audio service,
you'll find that link at the very top. If you're
watching on YouTube, you'll find that at the top of
the description there as well.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's a super super easy little link to use. It
has a little record button.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
You can record your message, you can listen back, make
sure that you don't hate it, just like old school voicemail,
and then you can send that to us and we'll
be able to download that and we may feature it
on the show. So we're excited to hear from most
of you, not all of you, but most of you.
Also want to do our double Portion club shout outs
real quick. We have Shanda and Chase. Sometimes I would
(02:01):
say Chase and Shanda, We're gonna fight the patriarchy. We're
gonna go Shanda and Chase for today. Thank you both
for supporting the podcast. Also Heather Bartlett and then Carla,
thank all of you for supporting the podcast. It means
a lot to Ashley and I and we're very grateful
for you. If you want to be in that exclusive club,
it's only ten dollars a month. You get AD free
(02:23):
episodes and the shout out as well as a sticker
I'll send to you. And then if you want to
do a five dollars a month to support the work,
you'll get AD free episodes and we'll send you the
cool holographic sticker. Just no shout out for the five
dollar people. Sorry, rules or rules right. And lastly, I
want to read a quick review. This is from Smiley
(02:43):
Netta and this says I have not experienced all the
same traumas of the host, but many experiences and feelings
resonate deeply with me. I am grateful to feel less
alone while I unpack growing up in high control religion.
Thank you, no, thank you very much of that review.
And I'm glad that the podcast has had a positive
impact to you and has been meaningful for you, and
(03:06):
we're again we're very very grateful for that. And to
hear from people you know on a regular basis that
it's helpful to them. Okay, so today's episode we've got
our final episode for now with Naomi, right. We actually
had her talk a little bit about Crusade Church and
the information that she has about that and the direction
(03:28):
that Crusade Church was headed, and kind of looking at
that through the lens of what she experienced in her
father's cult. And if you've listened to the previous two episodes,
you'll get why that would make sense that she could
have some insight there. So she kind of looked at
that from a different angle than maybe we could or
most people could, and kind of highlight some of the
(03:49):
differences and some of the similarities there.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So let's take a listen.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Okay, So you've listened to our podcast from the beginning,
so you kind of know the evolution of our family's
progression from one cult to another, and our dad starting
his own cult and then several years in turning to
(04:14):
this love move where he was encouraging you know, touching
and hugging and intimacy between members. And I know it
was a question on everyone's mind when I first reconnected
(04:34):
with the family, like what was going on, Why was
he doing this? Where was this going? And I know
that you have some thoughts on that, and I thought
I would love to hear those.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
They made it through the grape vine.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Was totally normal and nothing was going to happen, right, just.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Genuine love of a non platonic kind. Though, you know
something I've actually wanted to ask you to because I'm
just curious now that that's happened, Like, you know, kind
of the climax of the situation, are you guys, Like,
similarly to how I've looked back and been able to
(05:19):
connect previous things, if you guys had that experience, like
was it really totally out of nowhere? Like did this
really like kind of just pop up? This love cul
aspect of it, love moved aspect or like I know
you shared Ashley, And I'm not asking for specifics, but
like how you had Like you can think of some
moments similarly to me where you're like, oh, that just
fell off or that felt I guess I'm just wondering,
(05:41):
Like I look back and I can see, no, there
were some indicators along the way that just weren't big
enough to blow it up for me.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yet, what do you think.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
I don't think I have to the extent of what
you were talking about in yours. Sure, I think most
of my The work that I've done thinking about it
has been more it's not old stuff, it's more trying
to understand, like why did this happen when it happened?
Not really like what were the hints further back that
(06:17):
makes sense? Like I think we've talked about it a
little bit, like you know, Dad giving that message however
longer you know, before the love move where he was
clearly dissatisfied, that kind of stuff, trying to figure out like, okay,
what was the trigger that made this.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Happen when it did?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
But not so much kind of hints. I don't think
I've done enough of that work yet within myself.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And for me, just because the dad that I knew
that I grew up with was not that. Like I
remember him doing piano lessons for some girls and he
would always have me or my mom in the room
(07:03):
and he said, it's because you know, you didn't want
to give the appearance of evil, and like that was
like a protective thing for him in case you were
ever to be accused of something. And so to hear
that that is the direction that they started going in
was wild to me. I was like, what happened and
(07:27):
just based on what all of you have said. I
just think it may just literally come down to he
had an attraction for this person, he wanted her, and
he figured out a way to manipulate scripture, to bring
(07:47):
everybody else on board and make this something almost like
everybody's doing it. We're all doing this thing, and then
it doesn't look weird that he's doing it. But I
firmly believe that this was a trajectory. I don't think
you guys like hit home base. I think it was
(08:12):
still happening and where that would have gone, like I
can only guess, Yeah, I mean it was heading towards
religious orgies.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yes, is like, I mean, that's what it sounds like,
and so yeah, stepping I mean, I think similarly to
how it's taken me longer than maybe others who would
have asked me questions about my story to be like okay, yeah,
like no, my dad was a pedophile. He was to
be able to really like grasp those things and then
to be able to say them. I think it's we
(08:45):
have those additional challenges when it's our own story. And
so as I've followed along and listened to the podcast
and had conversations, for me having the lens that I have.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
From what my.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Experiences are, it sounds like it's not a hop, skip
and a jump, like it's they're just holding hands. I mean,
it's so similar in the motivation. It sounds like as
well as in like you just shared Ashley, that like
we're gonna make this a movement, Like we're gonna make
(09:18):
this okay for everyone. This isn't just gonna be like
an affair behind closed doors, Like no, I've got enough
power and control to be able to head this in
a direction where I can just outright do whatever I
want to do and where it would go from there.
I mean, I have a hard time believing it would
have stopped with one woman, because this wasn't like him
(09:40):
and my dad took many wives, so it wasn't he
didn't stop for him at like one or two women either.
But this wasn't even It wasn't taking a wife either,
and again he still could have taken more. It was
just more of this openness like this just you know,
being called love, but I think it really was more
about sexual openness and which we're not talking about that.
(10:04):
I'm like, well, that would be a whole separate conversation,
like I'm not saying like there can't be I'm saying,
in this environment of what's happening, like this is so
wrong and overlies to cover up for which I think
again is just for their evidence that yeah, he had
an end goal, like similar to my dad. I when
(10:24):
I hear about your dad, there's that similarity of we
both like they both wanted something and they were going
to use the power and influence that they had and
the control they had over others to make sure that
they got it. And just like my dad then said
other men could do the same, your dad was saying,
we can all do the same. And so it's not
(10:46):
just exclusive, it's.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Not just for me.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Maybe that would raise more flags or cause more issues.
And it's being painted in this again it's not the
stories that you've shared about like what love move actually
looked like, Like that's that's not actually like appropriate fondness
being shown between parties, like in any kind of environment,
(11:10):
like there isn't heavy petting and sitting on laps and
all of this stuff going on. It's not just like
an in a church. It's weird. It's like it's just weird, Yeah, anywhere,
Like it's just weird. And so go ahead, Yeah, it's
not love.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
It's almost like, you know, the approximation of what somebody
who doesn't know what love is looks like.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Because when I look back on and now, it's like.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Well, yeah, that's all you think of it as ye're
heavy petting and getting weird, not actual love, you know what,
you call it the love move. So it's interesting to
look at it.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Now from that lens.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, there are groups too. I've come alongside some people
who have come out of groups where they take like
Jesus is the groom and the church is the bride,
and they make it very literal and it isctualized, and
so they are being sexually intimate with themselves or with
others and believing it's like with Jesus, and so this
(12:08):
whole thing gets sexualized. And that sounds very similar as well,
like where this was heading. I don't recall to what
extent Jesus and bride and group like if any of
that was at play, like I remember right at least
some of it, and so just I could I could
just see within as little as like months where there
(12:31):
would have been like actual sexual activity like happening in
the sanctuary and saying, this is us being intimate with
our God and this is okay, and this is I
don't pro tip for anyone who wants to be a
cult leader. You can't move that fast.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And I think that was.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Where your dad dropped the ball, Like he got too
he was chopping at the bit too much for what
he wanted, and he moved it way too a few
months or something, wasn't it, Like it escalated fast, so
like followers can't keep up at that kind of speed.
I'm glad he did it too fast, because you know,
it all dismantled. So I'm so glad that happened. I
(13:11):
don't think it would have been caught in the same
way had it been more slow, But had it worked
at that pace, I don't see how it would have
been more than another like six months before, it would
have been just full blown religious orgies like I don't
even know what the technical term.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
And COVID, I mean, if COVID hadn't happened, I don't
know how that would have gone. But it is kind
of amazing that he pushed that so hard and my mom,
our mom was struggling so much with that, and he
didn't even try to finesse that situation at all. It
was just like, this is what's happening. And I always
(13:47):
wondered if he just is relying on the belief that
everyone had that he is God's prophet, He's receiving these
revelations from God, which I was going to ask you
when your dad was coming up with revelations or new
beliefs or whatever it was, how was he receiving that,
(14:08):
oh from God, like dreams or like visions or like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
He had some some were dreams, somehow weren't. I wouldn't say,
my my memory is I don't think they were predominantly dreams.
It was so it was more like Brenham, where Brenham
would claim to just like be hearing, like he would
just know. It was more of this just like knowing
(14:39):
like sent me this, Yeah, like I just know, like
I'm receiving receiving a message. It never happened like in
the moment like that, but that kind of idea.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
And so it was more of I just yes, like.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
In prayer, in reading God's word or in.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
Like I just know that this is it.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So he didn't even have to You didn't even have
to work that hard to like have dreams or makeup dreams,
or it could just be like what he thought and
then just claim that thought came from God.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I think Dad kind of did all of it.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, I was gonna say with Dad, especially towards the
end the love move part, like he would be in
a conversation. Not that this happened often with me or anything,
but I saw this happen. He'd be in conversation with
somebody and then like stop them and like do this
kind of thing, close his eyes and put his head
back and say, like the Lord's speaking to me right now. Stuff,
(15:33):
and then after five minutes or whatever, then you know,
recount what the Lord had told him about whatever that was.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
But this also goes back, I think to that performative
aspect is that he loved attention. I mean that's like,
I mean, without it, like he's nothing right and that
is like everything to him, which goes back to this
woman that he was getting involved with. I don't know
(16:04):
which came first. He wanted to be with someone else
or she's giving him the attention, and then that turns
into I want to be with her. But she was
definitely feeding him narcissistic supply big time.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
Oh, she was literally feeding him as well.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
I remember she was literally feeding him.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
She was feeding him supply and soup.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Well in some of that, I mean, she's the one
who has to nurse him. She's My heart just breaks
for your mom.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Oh yeah, yeah, I can't how awful.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And I think of my mom too, of course, with
like all the other women. Just people are so selfish sometimes.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, and that like you were talking about your dad
having genuine emotion and you could tell like sometimes I
was coming from a place really deep. I feel like
we saw a dad do that as well. It really
can mess with your head and confuse you when when
(17:15):
it's just no one. I just always came out of
this saying like no one is all good or all bad.
I mean, there it. He did horrible things, but I
know there were human moments. I guess that's what I'm
trying to say. Yeah, it just makes it hard.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
Yeah, and I've agreed. I agree.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I have agreed for a long time with what you're
saying of like, people aren't all good or all bad.
I do believe at this point though, people can very
heavily lean in one.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Direction or the other.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, for sure, And that's but that's something like I didn't,
you know. I was more like no, it just felt
more like a mixed a little bit more balanced a
little and I'm like, yeah, I know, it's really not
like it's not for him, like it's the heavily bad.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
I mean, you have to dig, like I have.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
To dig hard to find the goodness, because even there
can be so much bad that the stuff that is
more good again it's called into question, like was that
self serving? I mean, was that even genuine? I mean,
what do I do with it? I have all this
evidence of all these other things that weren't And so
I'm kind of at a point, I think right now
in my own like kind of making sense again with
(18:27):
having newer information come out of man, I don't I
think there were some genuine moments like there's this picture
of my dad like holding me when I was too
and dancing with me till I fell asleep, and he
wrote this release Sweet Palm about it, and he actually
kept it in his Bible. I think that was genuine
when I was that little, Like, I think that was
(18:48):
for real. But what plans did he have for me?
I don't know, you know, Like it's still like begs
some questions. But yeah, when I look at or think
about the story of your dad's rejectory, I think that
what throws me about it and it should it, Like,
I get it. People have affairs at certain stages of
life or there there's a specific person that catches their attention,
(19:11):
and it seems.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Like he had made it so long without letting that in.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
How old was he?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
He is seventy right now, so whatever in sixties, So
it just seems like, gosh, he made it so far
without something like that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
It's just why now. But he did also have that
power in that control that hadn't been built up, and
so then it just spirals of well, no, I want this,
and people get cocky and they think they can get it,
and then they can get sloppy. It's like people who
have you know, they say that about criminals, like, oh,
they'll get sloppy after awhile because they'll get too confident.
(19:51):
And I think there's a similarity.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I think that's exactly it. Because in the Worldwide Church
of God, he believed that Herbert Armstrong was you know,
god spokesperson basically in the leader of the One True Church,
and I think it was enough for him at that
time in his life to just know that he was
quote unquote called by God and that he was part
(20:16):
of the group that God had specifically chosen for this time,
and that was good enough for him, and he fell
in line and he followed the rules, and he was
doing all the things that you were supposed to do.
I definitely noticed a change when the church split and
(20:42):
we started hosting services at our home because it was
our home and that was like his domain. And then
we were one of the first families to leave the
Worldwide Church of God. So as other families trickled out,
they were coming to him as you would do, you know,
(21:02):
just like oh, you know, now I see this, and
so they're just talking to the wee hours of the morning,
and so I think he kind of assumed a bit
of a leadership role in that and felt a little
bit possessive of the group that was meeting at our
house every weekend and we were just playing video sermons
(21:24):
from the headquarters of Global Church of God. But then
when the church grew big enough, they're like, oh, we
have a minister for you now that's going to be
coming twice a month or whatever it was, and that
was just right from the get go not received well
at all. I remember him quabbling about the time of
(21:46):
services and saying, you know, they were changing, that the
new minister was having to go to several different towns
to give sermons on Saturdays, and so we had to
move our service. I don't remember what we moved it to.
Dad made a huge deal out of that, And even
(22:08):
though I was like locked up with him at the moment,
I still thought, what he why is this such a thing,
you know, Like I just felt like he was trying
to like find any way that he could control the situation.
And then, you know, this minister came in. I thought
he was nice, but Dad had a million bad things
(22:29):
to say about him, you know, and and and so
it just kind of Dad was able to justify, well,
we're just gonna have to like have our own group,
you know. And and so he justified that saying, you
know that they were too controlling, and which is just
(22:51):
so funny. And so I kind of think that is
how it all started, with him just a bit of
power and then realizing he likes it and he likes
the people, and then just went from there. Like I
think if Worldwide had never split, he would just still
(23:12):
be That's my personal opinion, he would just still be there.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Probably yeah, yeah, But like you said, he got that
taste for it and saw that people followed, right. I
mean when he let his own like, it wasn't just
immediate family, right, there were other people who.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Right, and he was so like the one thing about
him is he is very convincing. He you can't win
an argument with him. It doesn't matter what it is.
He can be arguing the sky is green, He's gonna
come out on top. It doesn't matter. You can both
(23:50):
be standing up there looking at it. He's so convincing.
I think he had everyone's ear because we would just
like talk all day Saturday and into Saturday night. And
so I think he was able to convince a lot
of the people in the group that this was something
that had to happen, like we had to separate ourselves.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
And yeah, I think that I do think he had
Maybe this is giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I don't know, but had like.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
A I guess his first task was like the self
delusion part, because I I guess this is where the
benefit of the doubt part comes in. Like I feel
like he always had to feel like what he was
saying or doing was genuine and right. I never got
(24:45):
the sense from Dad that he was conniving or scheming
and knew it, at least to the point that he knew,
like I'm manipulating this person and it's not great.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I know. I've talked to my brother Michael about this.
Like Michael thinks that Dad did.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Know he was manipulating and he's probably right, but thought
he was right to do it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
It's like I always had that sense for Dad.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Like he has to think he's genuine and right, which
is an interesting to me, which I know with a
lot of others that maybe is not the case that
they kind of know they're they're just angling to get
what they want. I think he was, but he still
had to like make it where he was really right
in his mind somehow.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, the self delusion is a huge piece of this.
I mean, we've we've debated it. I think he like
really believes. I think he really believes that he is
being persecuted right now and that he is God's servant
on earth, don't. I don't know how Jube.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, I think he thinks of himself in that vain
right now, that's the impression.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
That I'm well, similar to your dad saying I'm going
to be going away for a time. You know, he
was just like, I've had a vision I'm going to
be all alone. Everyone's going to leave me. And so
when all this happened, it's like, well, yeah, there's the
prophecy fulfilled. Everyone has left me, so you know, there's
(26:20):
no reaching out to any of us.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Or right right, which could also set him up to
then have other people join him in the future because
they would feel bad and be like, wow, you know
he really was right. I mean, it kind of gives
him a next step if he wants and if it
would be effective. But and I see that too for
boths where they were just like keeping the door open.
(26:46):
Whether totally intentionally in a calculated way or not, I
don't know, but it does keep the door open. I mean,
it kept in my family people in the same place
waiting for him, the same lifestyles. I mean, I heard
of this is probably like five plus years ago now,
but he had been a kid. Now he's like in
(27:08):
his forties, but someone I grew up with. He had
really wanted to be a medical doctor and was like
mid thirties, upper thirties at that point and still like
working in a grocery store or something, because he was
still waiting, Like just lives just totally wasted.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
It's so sad.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
So I mean, these beliefs, I mean they run deep,
and I think again, like a difference and your story
is how it just came on so quick and it changed,
I mean, and that was able to raise flags for people.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, and a lot of that was tied to our
mom's pain. Cause I think if mom had been more accepting,
I'm not really sure you know how that might have
impacted the rest of the siblings.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Hmm, yeah, if she had just that, I mean, gosh,
I would agree with that for myself, Like had my mom.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
Not been the.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Person, you know, played that role that she did of
like trying to make it okay and trying to you know,
keep peace with the other women and the I don't
know if I would have thought of it in the
same way growing up, right if I had had, I
mean maybe, I mean I have sisters from the other
moms who still, like us thought I don't know, I mean,
(28:34):
if they would still hold that belief of like they
thought it they had thought it was right.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
As far as I know, polygamy is not being practiced
anymore by the group that continues, So I mean that
makes me think that they did retire that anyway. I
don't know that they would actually speak badly of it.
I'm not sure if anyone would take it that far,
but yeah, that is interesting. Like had my mom not
said that, and my dad also said things like if
(29:00):
everyone's actually there's always these like bombs, right that just
make everyone wrong if they don't agree with him, and
it was if if everyone is right with God, then
they will be good with this and it will go
well and it will be so.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Then it was so.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Whenever there would be, you know, dissension, I always thought, well,
they're not right with God, you know, that's why, and
you get all judgy and you and so yeah, like
all these like nets, you know, so that you catch
every every potential disbelief for every potential like pushback that
you can get.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
See, it's things like that, which is obviously extremely familiar,
almost verbatim, that I've heard, But it's things like that
that make you think, at least make me think, well,
maybe I'm wrong about that benefit of the doubt thing.
Like when you hear that, it's like, well, it seems
like they kind of know what they're doing, like they're
sitting in the stage, like people aren't going to be
(29:55):
cool with this thing, So I'm just going to tell
you right up front, like if you're not, something's wrong
with you type thing. Yeah, we heard that so often,
especially at the end. But yeah, it's such it's so complicated,
like to try to think through like I don't know,
like you've said, like people aren't all one thing, but man,
it's true.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Figure, It's so interesting how like cult leaders all have
certain similarities and things in common, and you're just like,
you're not. They're not all reading the handbook on how
to start a cult and operate one, So why do
they all fall into the same similar patterns. It's just
uh and and I think before talking to you, I
(30:34):
just kind of thought, is this is this just part
of the pathology of narcissism? You know, Like I don't know,
like when when it's that extreme and you just want
power at all costs, is this just like kind of
what happens and that's why there's so many similarities. But
(30:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
I mean, there's so stories that I've looked at, including
my own, where I'm like, NPD might be too, this
might be a psychopath, Like we might have something different
even going on, and I've wondered about that as well,
like there there might be more aspects to what's happening.
(31:22):
So yeah, there are these common denominators. And I hear
what you're saying if it's not calculated, if none of
it is an intentional tactic being used, Like how are
all these people genuinely saying the same stuff?
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Is it just like a natural law somehow like water
eroads and these guys do all the same thing.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
It's hard to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And yet I am so glad that none of us
fully understand the head space of a call leader would
probably be them. So I'm like, I am thankful that
I can't totally get it.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Sorry, you're not gonna get what you from.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
My son so, uh so both of his grandfather's like
his dad, my ex husband's dad was a longtime pastor
in LCG and he grew up in it, like he
was literally born in LCG and uh and then our
dad so my son's like, so both of my grandfathers
(32:26):
like somewhat cult leaders like Dad was definitely one and
Carl was part of one, but.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
We don't think it's genetic.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
He was like, it's my destiny. I'm gonna have to
run a cult.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Oh my goodness. Well again, pro tip, don't move too
fast with your watch. You're gonna have to have delayed
gratification or followers will catch.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
On Boil the frog like slowly elevating Temperatures podcast How
to Be Well Dad. You know, Dad had this whole
thing about this demon named Pretense that he was going
(33:10):
to fight on Mountain Nebo and this whole showdown thing.
And so my son is he's he's a digital storytelling
major in h at Mazoo and uh he loves videography
and he wants to create a documentary where he's like
(33:31):
searching for pretense shows like I have to avenge like
for my grandfather to find pretense.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
Oh that's so good.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And being able to laugh about it is so healthy.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
He kind of happy at some point, like I spent
two a lot of years crying about it. So yeah,
but me way, thank you so much for coming. This
is so great.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Oh gosh, absolutely it was fun.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
And like, oh, at the same fun kind of like,
you know, I know it's a.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Mix like that was a fun talk like yeah, but no,
you two.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Are enjoyable people to have a crappy conversation with.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Wow, could you write that out? That would Aside from that,
we're mostly okay.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
Whatever it was, we had a one star review.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
We were gonna get I want my shirt, this is
mostly okay podcast.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Mostly okay and interesting, or something like that. We had
a one star review or somebody.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Well mostly okay should be more than one. That would
be not okay at all, I guess.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
But yeah, there's no lower shout out to you, whoever
you are. I don't remember who it was. I hope
you're still listening to.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
If you like this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
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