March 12, 2025 • 52 mins
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In Part 1 of our conversation with Mandy Jones, we explore her family’s unique journey through various religious groups, including the Worldwide Church of God offshoots, Messianic movements, and eventually, a brief time in Crusade Church. Mandy shares how these experiences shaped her worldview and the challenges of navigating high-control religious environments.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
In Part 1 of our conversation with Mandy Jones, we explore her family’s unique journey through various religious groups, including the Worldwide Church of God offshoots, Messianic movements, and eventually, a brief time in Crusade Church. Mandy shares how these experiences shaped her worldview and the challenges of navigating high-control religious environments.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Roberts
w Armstrong and.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I am here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me. He's making through me.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The Lord, let me experience what it is to be
a new bride.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
We're coming, says the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, the sins that they are holding back
in their life.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hello of you one, and welcome back to the Coltning
Start podcast. Maddie here. Before we get started with today's episode,
remind everyone to follow us on our socials so Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
We also have a new way that you can connect
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(01:16):
episode description for the episode that you are listening to
right now. So if you're listening on Apple, Spotify, another
streaming service, or even watching on YouTube, you can follow
that link, click record and send us a voice message. Also,
as always, want to do our double portion club shout
outs Shanda and Chase, Heather Bartlett, and Carla. Thank you
all for supporting the podcast. We appreciate you very much.
(01:39):
If any other listeners want to be a part of
this club, it's ten dollars a month. You get ad
free episodes, a shout out, and I'll send you a
really cool cult next Door holographic sticker. We also have
a five dollars a month support tier which gets you
add free episodes and a holographic sticker, just no shout
out for that one. Also want to read a review
real quick. This says My husband and I are almost
(02:01):
three years out of a very abusive church experience. So
much of what you discussed on the podcast is word
for word things our pastor has said to us and others.
The tactics used by abusers seem to all be the same.
It brings me so much comfort to know that we
are not alone and that you are bravely speaking out
against abuse. You are an inspiration. Thank you very much
(02:22):
Sarah for that review. Okay, today's episode we have part
one with Mandy Jones. Mandy and her family have a
very interesting path that cuts through a lot of different
groups worldwide. Church of God, offshoots, Messianic groups, and eventually
their family was even part of Crusade Church for a
short time. So I'm not going to give any more
(02:43):
exposition on this. We're just going to jump right in
with Mandy. So let's take a listen to part one.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, I just my parents didn't start out in any churches.
They but they had a rough go of things. So
I mean they fought a lot and they drink a lot,
and I think that was their big appeal to joining
a church, with my mom leading the way because she
wasn't happy with how things were. Like I know, the
(03:11):
church provided a lot of the tools they needed to
save their marriage, so that's what they stuck it out for.
I think what was the church to start with? It
was a non denominational Bible study that met on a
Tuesday night and it kind of evolved from there. They
had they connected with a charismatic church from Florida, Okay
(03:36):
that had a bishop and definitely definitely as a cult.
They came up and kind of like orchestrated changes and said, well,
you should probably do this here, and you know, if
you're the leader, then you need to be doing that,
you know, like raining your people in and having more
control that The leader of that church that started as
(03:59):
the Bible stanfe I never viewed him as like a
cult leader, so it was kind of a weird for
him to turn into one. Like, looking back, I feel
like any church has the capacity to turn into a cult,
and like the biblical structure is there, you know, like
(04:21):
that's how how I've come to see it. I didn't
really feel like the impact of it until I started
to hit puberty, and then some of the women in
the church were uncomfortable with the relationship I had with
my dad. It was never inappropriate that I know of,
but they were uncomfortable. So my parents decided they had
(04:44):
to put some distance between us. And then, like clothing,
you know, there was never any clothing restrictions when I
was younger. When I hit puberty, it was like okay,
now you can't wear this, and you can't wear that
your body is on display, and then launched into purity culture,
(05:07):
which ended up being fairly damaging in and of itself.
Later on, during that time, my dad worked for a
guy who they were in an offshoot of the Worldwide Church.
I think they had Worldwide Literature, and my parents started
to study that and thought that that was probably for them.
(05:29):
So they decided to meet with them on Saturdays and
still go to the Bible Study on Tuesdays. Eventually, the
Tuesday Bible Study branched out to Sundays as well, and
they kind of gave my parents an ultimatum. They said,
you can't do both. You have to pick Saturday or Sunday.
(05:50):
Which church gave the ultimatum, the non denominational Bible Study Church.
Oh wow, because it totally sounds like something that Worldwide
would do. Mm hmm. Well yeah, it wasn't until after
they mixed with that cult that they just they started
(06:11):
to say things like that to people.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
You can only be part of one cult at a time,
It's basically what they were saying.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Basically, So the Bible City group that your parents started
was there otherwise, like any crossover or connection as far
as like doctrine and theology with what they found with
the other group that was more like the worldwide influence
was just like a whole new thing that they had
(06:41):
discovered over here on the side. Or was it was
there any kind of overlap with what they started doing
with the group.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
It was just they decided that whatever the Bible said
was what they wanted to do. And so with meeting
with the people that had the worldwide literature that the
Sabbath in the Holy Days, they saw that in the Bible,
so they decided that that was something that they wanted
(07:11):
to include in their religious practice.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
How old were you when, like when you when they
got the ultimatum and like, you guys are going to
shift to this more worldwide type. How old were you
at that.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Point when they gave the ultimatum? I was sixteen. When
my parents started to cross over and do both, I
was around eleven, so it was it took a while.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
You mentioned the clothing standards, What was that, like, are
we talking you know, long skirts and other like holiness
standards like no makeup, long hair, like what was that
they were?
Speaker 3 (07:55):
It was like no spaghetti straps, you know, no sleeveless
or no strapless. I mean, yours straps had to be
like three fingers wide, and you're it had to be
longer than fingertips of skirts or wear pants or shorts. Yeah,
it was like average Pentecostal type clothing requirements.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
When the ultimatum happened, kind of walk us through like
what your your family did from there, obviously switching over
to the more Sabbath Holy Day centric church, kind of
talked through like what that was like and what happened following.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
We had gone to that group for eight years and
they were kind of like family, so when they handed
that ultimatum down, it was really harsh. We my mom
and I had gone on a mission trip with that
group and it was on the way home in the
airport that the pastor gave the ultimatum to my mom.
(09:00):
So we were like a whole reeling on the airplane,
thinking how is this going to affect our life? And
what are what are we gonna do? We got home
and I mean, my dad wasn't with us at the time,
so they had to discuss. Of course, when they decided
(09:20):
to just go with the Sabbath group, the whole leadership
told everybody in the church to have pretty much have
nothing to do with us. My girl the we had
a girls group, and the mentor for that she like,
I was supposed to supposed to go over to her
house and share my mission trip photos with her, and
(09:46):
she was like, I'm sorry, but I have to back
up the leadership and I can't do that with you anymore.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Oh so sad.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So I was just like heartbroken. I mean, as a mentor,
you know, you share a fit, share things with your
mentor and you trust them. And I was just a
really big blow.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Yeah, and you were just sixteen too, so it's not
even like you really had choice in what your parents decided,
you know what direction they decided to take the family in. No,
I didn't, So do you know what, Like, how did
they make that decision between the two churches. Was it
more along the lines of like a Sabbath conviction that
(10:32):
God's Church would be keeping Saturday.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, it was. It was God's Church would be keeping Saturday,
and if we have to choose, we have to choose that.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Yeah. I'm almost surprised. And lets unless unless Worldwide didn't
really know, I'm surprised that they were accepting of you
attending both groups because historically worldwide has not been very
forgiving about that either.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think the explanation for that would be it was
so such a rural area and there was no formal
worldwide church structure, so it was just in their house,
you know, listening to cassette tapes. Oh, I say literature.
So it wasn't controlled by that to to be a thing, right, Okay, yeah,
(11:29):
understand that. The fall before the ultimatum, my parents attended
their first FISA tabernacles in Tennessee. So I think that
also gave them like the courage to kind of step
away from their other group. Yeah, they had some support,
national support, I guess.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Okay, so then you are now fully and worldwide, and
but you are still basically on your own listening to
I guess you're probably watching the telecast and things like that.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I think we were just still on like the cassette tapes. Yeah,
it was, that's right.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
I keep forgetting because they used to do that. They
would send out tapes to people. This is weird how
that's just now coming back to me. But they would
send out tapes for people who lived in rural areas
who were not near congregations, and also like shut ins
people who weren't able to leave. So there were a
(12:37):
lot of people sprinkled throughout the world who were part
of the church but weren't necessarily part of a specific congregation.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
And it wasn't very long after the ultimatum that my
parents decided that they were kind of done with the
area and took us on a road trip, which I
mean wasn't unusual. My dad drives truck and we had
done that before. But uh so we just I guess
I don't really know what their process was, but we
(13:11):
just kind of went on the road trip until they
found somewhere they wanted to stay. And it ended up
being that group that with that group that we spent
that first Feast of Tabernacles with in Tennessee. So they
they weren't closely affiliated with Worldwide. They had had some
(13:31):
bad experiences themselves, so they considered themselves independent. And I
think we stayed there for three years before we moved
back to Montana and then so it was nineteen when
we left there.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
So is there anything notable about that three years that
you were there before you moved.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Back if But yeah, there is. While we were there,
we did get a lot more conservative and it was
partly partly on me because I was wanted to be
wanted to be a good Christian and follow the Bible
as closely as possible. Also, I was full all in,
(14:17):
you know, like that was my life. Dresses only or skirts,
head coverings. My parents we got rid of all like
statuary things like anything like dolls and fake plants, you know,
(14:38):
just really extreme while we were there.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
What was the rationale in regards to the plants, Like
I do remember like that anything that could be considered
like nick knacks, that could be considered like statuettes, could
be looked at or viewed at as as idols. And
so I kind of understand that the fake plants, I'm
(15:08):
curious about that.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
It was like like a fake thing of like God's creation,
an imitation for God's creation, and we would use to
prefer God's creation over something that was not real. That
if I remember it, that was the rationale. Oh okay,
(15:33):
that makes sense. I mean it's still very out there,
but I understand I understand the rationale at least, and
not everybody in the in that church was on the
same wavelength either, So I mean they were very much
you choose how far you're in it, Oh, okay, And
so long as you have the basic requirements of keeping
(15:57):
the Sabbath in the holy days and m clean and
unclean meats. Outside of that, you're pretty much, you know,
on your own. Oh and only one hundred percent natural
fibers too. That was that went along with.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Oh yeah, yes, and not was Did that also include
not mixing fibers?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Mm hmm it did?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Did you guys at the time consider yourselves to be
more like on the Messianic Christian side, because I know,
like when we met you guys, that was our assumption,
but I didn't know what that was like for you
or the progression of that as like more things kind
(16:44):
of came up, like you said, like the fibers thing.
Was that like a just a progression of like, well,
we should do this and we should add that. Or
was it more you know, you're taking cues from uh,
you know, somebody that maybe your parents found that is
more like in the Messianic Like which kind of direction
do you think that how that went?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I think I think it was a little bit of both,
because there was that the pastor of that church is
very towards the Messianic like use the tassels on the
corners of your garments and and all that. And he's
very also health oriented, so he did a whole bunch
of research on like frequencies of the fabrics and all
(17:24):
that kind of thing too.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
And then if I recall to at least for a time,
it was like the the beard laws to like not
rounding the corners of the beard.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Am I remembering that right? For your family?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
That that was part of it.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, my dad still has full beard.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And he's scrolled out his hair too. So that was
last ten years, I thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
So it wasn't too long after that after we left
Tennessee that we spent our first feast with you guys
at Camp beaver Fork.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Okay, so I have to ask, how did you find
Crusade Church.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
I'm not sure if it was like my mom did
some Google searching for different feast sites.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
She did.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
She does that and just and picks one that she
feels calls to her. I think that's how we were
really close with the Draymonds though, too, so that might
have been like they may have mentioned you guys.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, so Ashley, the Drymond family came to the feast
in Hot Springs. It was like our maybe our second
feast that we were hosting at Camp Yorktown Bay. The
Drymond family came and so, yeah, i'd forgotten about that man. Yeah,
that you guys had that connection to I'm still.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Really close with them, so I love them. They're like
second family.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Hi, Mary, you guys came and visited the feasts, I
guess I mean talk about like what happened from there.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, Well, it was on the heels of a really
traumatic event with like between myself and my parents. I
had met this guy and decided to date him. He
wasn't in the church. My mom flew off the handle
so so far that she's like trauma blocked it now
(19:30):
and can't remember any of it. But I remember sitting
next to him on the phone with my mom and
her just telling me that I was a disappointment and
how could I be doing this, Like it was the
end of the world, you know, to be just dating
this guy. Yeah, and it hadn't been even Yeah, the
(19:52):
whole thing from start to finish. I dated him for
two weeks.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
So I would come home and I I would get
either like the cold shoulder or scriptures wielded at me
like a weapon and I know it was out of fear,
but it's still it's still so harmful to wield anything
like that at people you love. Oh yeah, I ended
(20:19):
up breaking it off because a different friend of mine
came to me rationally and took me out and said, hey,
this is what I know about this guy, this is
what I know about you. Who do you want to be?
And so I did end up breaking off with him,
and I do feel like it was a good decision,
(20:39):
but it didn't help my relationship with my parents and
having to go back and basically apologize where I feel like,
thinking back, what why would they need me to apologize
for being human?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yeah, it was just it was so we were on
our way to feast days after I broke up with him,
and I didn't know anybody there, and by this time
you were I was twenty going to turn twenty one
(21:18):
at the end of that year.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Okay, So you guys came to our feast and conway.
I mean, if there's anything that you can remember about that, like,
what was that experience like for you and for the family.
I mean, did it I imagine it did in some ways?
Did it trigger anything because I mean, obviously we'll get
down the road with the story where you guys were
(21:40):
part of Crusade Church for a time. But like, what
what was that feast like? From what you can recall.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
For me coming off of that trauma, it was really warm.
Everybody was really friendly and it didn't stayed out wait,
but just like initial impressions, and I got to meet
Chelsea and of course Sarah and Chen and Matt and Michael,
(22:15):
and I think I spent a lot of time just
kind of watching and feeling like, oh, if they only
knew whe I'd be so judged. But overall it was
a really good experience. There was one weird point that
didn't make any sense at the time that does now.
(22:35):
There was something about we were going over songs for
the fun Show, I think and Chelsea. We had to
leave the auditorium because Chelsea couldn't be there. At the
same time, Matt was.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Oh, do you remember, I'm sure you do. What year
this was your first visit? Have been like, oh, six,
seven or eight or somewhere in there, probably right.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I think it was two thousand and six.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, those were dark feasts from what I recall those
years for me.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Yeah, So they said that openly. They're just like saying
that openly that the two of you cannot be in
the same can't be in the room at the same time.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
There were some looks and like some quiet whispers. It
didn't it wasn't completely overt I think because I was there,
they didn't want to just like spill it all out.
I don't think like Chelsea's like, yeah, yeah, we gotta leave.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
They didn't want to out the secret shame.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
I guess, Oh my goodness, So.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I guess you were seeing from that it wasn't all
that different from what you had just experienced before coming.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
To the feast. It was just new people that were
friendly and who knows, like I wasn't. I also wasn't
a very critical thinker at that point, Like I didn't
think for myself at all, So I didn't look too
close at a lot of things, like it's safe, it's
(24:19):
safe to believe what the Bible says, it's safe to
do that, and like whatever the people around me are,
you know the status quote, just keep to that, don't
step outside any boxes or think about much, right, and
you really are trained to set aside your own thoughts
(24:42):
and opinions and any idea of critical thinking, like for
your entire life. So it's almost you don't even have
to think about it, about not thinking about the thing.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
You just don't, you know.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
So after that feast, we went to California for a
while and at the end of that we came back
for the feast the next.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Year, oh with Crusade. Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, So we spend those two in a row at Crusade.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Okay, so you you didn't attend like the local sabbath
services with Crusade, it was it was just these feasts,
so you probably kind of saw the best. I mean,
the feast is always a time where people are happy
and it's kind of festive and there's a lot going on,
(25:36):
and the community aspect of it is so strong at
the feast because you're spending so much time with all
of these people and a lot of it is organized time.
And so I can understand why you had like a
positive impression of Crusade because you weren't there for that,
you know, like week in week out politics and drama
(26:00):
and control.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I guess yeah. And I mean I was also homeschooled
from second grade, so it really feast time for me
at that point. In my life was like something I'd
never had before, you know, that sense of all around
your community, right right, So it was it was something
that I kind of and I craved. I think, yeah,
(26:24):
and you know, people my age and from being in
a rural place, people your age is minimal.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah, we definitely always looked forward to going to the
feast because you would see other kids, other people you
know that were around your age from other areas in
the country, and it was typically a time, at least
for me, where I felt like my parents were happier.
(26:55):
There seemed to be I mean, do you feel that way, Matt, Like,
I feel like the feast when I look back, those
are good memories, even though I see them in a
completely different light now. It was a good time for
our family overall.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, I agree, apart from maybe a couple of things
here and there, especially later, overall, Yeah, and I think also,
you're there's like the mandate. Maybe that's too strong of
a word, but like the mandate that you're supposed to
be happy and rejoicing. So everybody's like, yeah, we're happy,
even if even if you're not having a great time
at the moment.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
You're willing you are willing it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, so I do think like, yeah, that was the
whole vibe was you know, it's like going to a party.
It's like you're supposed to be happy, so yeah, let's
be happy.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yeah, and typically you're not worried about money for that
one week and like there is an abundance. Yeah, so
there there are things that were good about it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Oh yeah. The so you guys came to the feast
and six and seven, of course you're just like actually
said you're you know, you're kind of getting like the
best foot forward of the group and all that stuff
talk about from you know, Feast oh seven from there
for you guys.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Well, we came in for Feast oh seven and it
was kind of the same thing, you know, just everybody's
happy and friendly and we just enjoyed ourselves. I met
a guy and I wasn't I had decided not to
date for a while, like I left it off for
like six months or something to get myself straight. And
so I told him, I said, if you still want
(28:36):
to try this after, you know, in November, because that's
when my six months is up, then I'm up for it.
But after the feast, we went to Russellville, and we
ended up living in the church building for a couple
of months, and that was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
The whole family.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah, the whole family. There are six of us at
that point, so I'm the oldest, and then my sister Brianna,
who's Maddie's age, and then two younger siblings that my
parents adopted. We got to witness like the comings and
goings of everybody for interests, because I know we were
there from from feast until the middle to end the
(29:18):
end of November.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
This is pre Futon in the office though, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Before Yeah, actually, like the office was where I went
to get away from my family. Oh man, hang out
in there a lot by myself.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Excuse me, it's the pastor's layer. It's a god.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Seems so evil.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Later you called your room you guys were living at
the church. What was that like inn eight that you
guys were living in the church and came up down.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Yeah, well after after feast and oh seven, it was
definitely like October November. We were in the church for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Oh wow, so quick it was October November, like after
the feet. I didn't realize it was that bang bang.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
And so Dad invited is that this is an offer
from dad.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I really have no idea how that happened. It must
have been an invite from your dad because my parents
were looking for a new place.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
To be grow the congregation.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah. Well they found us a rental at some point
and we stayed there until it was like the end
of spring, so we stayed like six months, I think,
so that at that in November when I'd said, if
you still want to see if if there's something there,
so I did. It was a long distance thing with Kenneth.
(30:48):
Do you remember Kenneth?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yes, but I can't California place face right now.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
And he was affiliated with the church.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
He wasn't. He was just kind of in of those
on his own things in California.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
But with the same belief system basically. So it was
somebody your parents were okay with.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Mm hmmm. Yeah they were. They were okay with it.
They were approving. But I remember being on the phone
with him one time and he asked me, He's like, so,
does everything seem good there where you're at, Like, does
everything seem good with that church that you notice anything weird?
And I was like, no, not really. He's like, are
(31:29):
you sure, because I kind of noticed some things and
I kind of made me think about that and look
a little harder. But I think his his and I
relationship for me was just kind of activating my brain.
He really pushed me to, you like, sink outside the
box and think for myself and start just got that ball,
(31:50):
that ball rolling for me even though we you know,
it was a horrible breakoup, but it was beneficial. And
so with with that aspect, I didn't get really pulled
into any of the church dramas with with the single
men because that's not where I was focused. That kept
(32:10):
me out of trouble. But I remember at one point
during towards the beginning of the relationship, your dad came
to me with this list, and it was the list
of all the things, like the criteria of things that
had to be met for this to be a viable
relationship in their eyes. And I remember thinking, well, Okay,
(32:32):
this is kind of weird, but like that's not I
h I don't answer to you, you know, like that
was kind of my thinking in my head. I didn't
say that, so I was just like okay, and then
just I think maybe Sarah brought it up once more,
like the list, you know, where you're at on the list.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
I would love to see this list.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It was like independent living arrangement. At least one of
us had to have a car that was in working order,
and some of us had to have jobs. There were
a few other things, but I don't remember what.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Like that's so, I mean, there's so much overreach obviously
by all of these groups, like the leaders of these groups,
but like Dad to just be like, it's not a
viable relationship unless there's one working car. I don't even
understand where this is coming from. That is so absurd.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, preparation for marriage. I think that's where that was.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
Oh okay, yeah I did.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I don't even think I kept the list. It's gone.
I was like, weird, Well, we hadn't been there for
very long, like two or three months at the most.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
And so Kenneth came and visited.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
He was at the feast with us that that year
and that, but I didn't see him again until after
we broke up, pretty much like at the end passover.
So it was a completely over the phone virtual relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
So was this from Dad as far as you know,
like completely independent from like your parents or did he
talk to them? Did they collude, like what was I
remember some of this like vaguely, like what what what?
What was going on?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I think my parents were there when he gave us
the list, and I don't remember them talking to me
about it at all afterwards. My parents were very independent
people in the Crusade Church. They weren't going to just
follow whatever your dad said either they and they never
made it into the inner circle because of that reason,
(34:51):
their dress code standards were higher, and you know, I
would have never been allowed to wear anything that your
dad would have disapproved of. I remember that kind of
being hard, because you know, Sarah Jen had that girls
group with Chelsea and Jessica and Brianna, and we could
never be a full part of it because you know,
(35:14):
Sarah Jen liked to make people over and you here,
let me help you fit it feel pretty and which
is really nice, but that was just never an option
for me, I feel like. So I feel like the
best that I could do was to show up consistently
(35:34):
and put my all in in fitness group and maybe
I could get by.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
I think that is something that is interesting about these
groups is because you hear this kind of story repeatedly,
people will join cults or high control groups because they
want and desire community, and then there is all of
this kind of manipulation though within the group, it's almost
(36:07):
like community is used, like weaponized in a sense, you know,
like if you don't if you aren't falling completely in
line with the way that is suitable for us. And
when I say that, I you know, I mean mean
the leadership, then you don't get that full community. Then
(36:28):
it's actually like a situation where you're on the outskirts
of it. And that is so painful. But it's almost
like by the time that happens, you're in a really
vulnerable position where you're almost like willing to take breadcrumbs
over nothing or over just leaving. And I think that's
(36:52):
such a terrible way to control people using something that
is like a basic human need.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
And I know that we weren't the only ones in
that spot, Yeah, but still doesn't make it easy.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure with dad knowing
that your parents, I mean that I was gathering this
as you were speaking, that your parents likes have demonstrated
that they have a pretty that they're pretty independent, you know,
because they have been with these different groups and and
(37:32):
I'm sure for Dad like that that was never going
to be okay with him, Like the only way to
get in the inner circle and to like probably participate
in services and be really a part of it was
going to be like some form of allegiance to him.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, I mean I was a little bit useful. I
was invited to do special music quite a lot. We
didn't have too many problems. I don't think until about
midway through being there, Brianna thought Matt was cute and
she made the mistake of saying so to she, Well,
(38:14):
she can find it in somebody that leaked it, leaked
the information, so she was she was like shuttled away
if she got anywhere close to him. They definitely weren't
allowed to talk. And I mean, it's just a schoolgirl crush.
Like it wasn't even a serious thing. It's just, oh,
(38:35):
he's cute, you know. It was.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Just did you know that Matt?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I remember the second part. I don't think I remembered
that it was that she confided in somebody and that
there was like leaked that she had a crush on me.
I knew that she did at one point and that
they were like keeping her away a type thing.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It's still it's so weird to think, like we're leaking
things that fifteen year olds are saying. And I just wondered, Matt,
if you if you didn't know that it's because she
said that, did you take that personally, like, oh, it's
me I can't be trusted because I know that that's
how Dad made you feel. So did you just think, oh, yeah,
(39:21):
I can't be trusted, so they want to make sure
that this girl is not around me.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I think probably. I don't know that I thought it
as succinctly as you just said it, but that, like
you said, we've talked about before, like there was the
whole vibe at that time of like you're the f up,
like yeah, yeah, like you said, you can't be trusted,
so we're gonna keep everybody away, just like with what
Manny was saying earlier about at the feast with them,
(39:48):
kind of like keeping Chelsea away type thing, like I
always assumed it was my fault kind of that that
was why, which maybe I'm sure that Chelsea felt that
way too, but yeah, I think that was probably the
vibe was with this situation too for me, if I
(40:08):
can recall correctly it's been a long time.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, that's hard. One of the other things that I
remember being really hard to handle was we had all
gone out for a walk for women's fitness around the
lake area or at the park. One of the ladies
that was kind of on the edge, she made a comment.
(40:34):
I don't remember what it was, but I know it
wasn't that bad, and that got it was somebody took
it as derogatory towards towards Sarah, and I remember being
called in to like a meeting was almost like a
council thing, and Sarah and Jen were there, and then
(40:56):
I was there. I think maybe Chelsea saw huh was there,
and then the lady who supposedly said the offensive thing,
and it was just it was like an inquisition at
that lady, like what did you say? Why did you
say that? How dare you say things like that? And
(41:17):
I know I know that person, she is like the softest,
kindest heart, and it was just really like there was
nothing that I could say because I didn't really hear
say it. There was nothing I could say to make
it better for her. And it was just like, you know,
when you say something about this person, it's saying it
(41:39):
about God because Larry has given me the authority and
you don't do that. And I could just see her
like get smaller and smaller in her chair. I just
it maybe really want to cry for her.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Why were all of you there? Were you all there
like as witnesses to the comment?
Speaker 3 (41:58):
I'm sure, I'm sure because as we were in the
general vicinity when the comment happened, I remember I wasn't
feeling able to be helpful. And then you know, you
just keep your head down and stay off the radar
because you don't want to get in trouble. No, you
don't want any of that directed at you.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
So was that some of your I guess along with
the list, you got some of your kind of first
view into the dysfunction and kind of the darker parts
of what was going on at Crusade.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yep. And I remember seeing Ashley's picture at yours house.
I knew like it was your mom had put it
in a photo album, I think, and some of us
girls were looking through it and we got the impression that, oh,
she married somebody outside the church, she married a non believer,
(42:55):
and that's why we don't speak to her. Wow, And
I thought, well, that's it's really not a good enough reason,
but that's the the line we were told.
Speaker 4 (43:06):
I didn't know there were any pictures.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
There were several. There were even a couple of your kids.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
Oh really, they've literally never met them.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, but they have their photo. It's just as good.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I owe you. No, we did have for a long
time behind Dad's chair on the wall next to the
front door, the beach photo that you're in. You might
remember it. It's like I was, I don't know. Three.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Yeah, I think it's the one that grinded and Grandma
had in the way. Two.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, it's like at Pensacola that we had that like
up there forever. So they weren't super shy about those things,
and like having your photo around. I guess it's fun
when people people will say, who's that?
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Who's that? We're talking she who shall not be named.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Yeah, it's confused.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Yeah, I always wonder about that, like it, like how
they framed that whole situation with new people who didn't
know this story a brief thirty second explanation.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
That's about right.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
And the irony is that he wasn't outside the church
quote unquote, he was still part of it right.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
I know, that's what bog is my mind now after
hearing your story, I'm like, oh my gosh, that was
like grossly mispresent.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Because the truth sounds head he thinks.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
So he wasn't converted, it is what they thought. And
because he wasn't converted enough, he wasn't already baptized, then
we were un equally yot. So the obvious answer is
to just completely cut that person out.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
I'm sorry you lent through that.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah, those were the like the inroads to seeing things
weren't always quite what they seemed. I think there's only
a couple other things that I noticed before we ended
up leaving. My mom would get a little opinionated at
times towards like the end, or like pray too long
or louder about the wrong thing, or I don't know
(45:33):
what she did in each of the occasions, but there
would be a sermon for her the following week, and
she would know that it was to her. And then
there was the grandmother of the church. She also there
were also sermonts for her. They kind of felt like
(45:54):
they were grouped together a lot on that. I think
those kind of things were kind of like my parents
say that during one of the worship services, they both
heard that they were to go home to Montana, and
that's why that's the why they say they left. And
(46:14):
I don't have any other reason to believe otherwise, but
I know it was getting more and more controversial for
us to stay.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
They heard that as in like like a divine they
felt like it was a divine message, or they heard
someone in the congregation.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
They felt like it was a divine message. Yeah, for
them to go home, it wasn't very It wasn't very
long after that that Lou went back to Montana.
Speaker 4 (46:45):
How did you feel about that, about going back to Montana?
Speaker 3 (46:51):
I mean, I think I got my own theories on
how they heard what they heard. But at the time,
I mean, I was raised is to you know, the
message growing up was young women on their own, it's
not safe for them. They're easily deceived. You know, you
can't that's not something you do. You stay at home
(47:13):
until you get married. So I was twenty two. I
think at that point I felt like I had no
choice but to go with.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Them, right right, I understand that I don't.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Know that I would have felt at home enough to stay. Yeah,
I think I just felt like, well, I guess that's
what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
So when you left, what who did you affiliate with?
Or like where did you I guess I want to ask,
did you go back to where you lived before in
Montana in the same rural town we did.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
By then there was a United branch of the church.
Speaker 4 (48:00):
Oh okay, okay, So then you did have a congregation
to attend with then, And had you been indoctrinated against United,
like just through Crusade or any of the other Sabbath
keeping groups, because you know, they were all so competitive
(48:22):
with each other and like who's really the right one,
who's carrying on the torch of Herbert Armstrong? And and
so I'm curious, like if that was like almost taboo
from what you had been told from other groups like Crusade.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I think, I mean my parents, the renegades that they are. Yeah,
I gotta love that about them, because they do they do, yeah,
go where they feel like they should be. They more
took that as negative things about corporate leadership, and they
tended to judge each group based on the people in
(49:03):
the group and not on the corporate structure. So being
that it was one of the only congregations in the
area and that people were nice. Yeah, we decided to
go and it worked out for quite a while. It
worked out really well until the pastor corporate decided that
(49:24):
he was in the running for like a regional pastorship,
and then things started to change. And in that time
I met my ex husband and we got married and
had a kid or two. We rented from a friend
of my family to start off, and I found out
about a year and a half into it maybe that
(49:44):
he hadn't been paying the rent. So the landlord eventually
brought in that pastor to kind of mediate and say, well,
these this family's in your congregation, you're responsible for them.
What are you going to do about it? And the
pastor got really really upset because we weren't officially members
(50:06):
and my husband at the time, he wasn't baptized and united.
So the pastor I remember being on the phone with
him and him saying, well, your husband isn't even saved,
like there's he may be in the church, but you know,
he's not baptized with us, so we don't really count that.
(50:29):
And that made me really angry. Not for the fact
of whether my husband is or isn't because just because
what business and what right does he have to judge that?
So it got really uncomfortable for me with that and
with the financial thing. And by that time, I think
(50:50):
we had three kids under the age of four, so
I mean I was home. I felt really helpless to
do anything about any of it. I felt like it
had been hidden from me in the first place. So
with that discomfort between the pastor and my husband and myself,
(51:12):
we just decided not to go anymore.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
So then what did you do when you stopped?
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Oh, we we found some some sermon CDs from other
places that we listened to for a while. And then
gradually the things started to not make sense to me anymore,
Like head coverings. I had my oldest daughter has like
beautiful red hair, and I was like, how how could
(51:41):
anybody decide that should be covered up? Right? So then
like head covering question for me, And so each each
thing like that that happened, I questioned more and more,
and I remember feeling at one point, if I keep
questioning this, then I'm going to have to question the
whole thing. Right at the time, I mean, my husband
(52:04):
at the time, he was angry enough at the church
to you know, kind of create a space where I
could do that, and I just went all in, looking
at like different evidences for and against everything. Wow, and
I finally decided that it wasn't for me.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
If you liked this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and up based and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Roberts
w Armstrong and.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I am here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me. He's making through me.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The Lord, let me experience what it is to be
a new bride.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
We're coming, says the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, the sins that they are holding back
in their life.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hello of you one, and welcome back to the Coltning
Start podcast. Maddie here. Before we get started with today's episode,
remind everyone to follow us on our socials so Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
We also have a new way that you can connect
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(01:16):
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(01:39):
If any other listeners want to be a part of
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out for that one. Also want to read a review
real quick. This says My husband and I are almost
(02:01):
three years out of a very abusive church experience. So
much of what you discussed on the podcast is word
for word things our pastor has said to us and others.
The tactics used by abusers seem to all be the same.
It brings me so much comfort to know that we
are not alone and that you are bravely speaking out
against abuse. You are an inspiration. Thank you very much
(02:22):
Sarah for that review. Okay, today's episode we have part
one with Mandy Jones. Mandy and her family have a
very interesting path that cuts through a lot of different
groups worldwide. Church of God, offshoots, Messianic groups, and eventually
their family was even part of Crusade Church for a
short time. So I'm not going to give any more
(02:43):
exposition on this. We're just going to jump right in
with Mandy. So let's take a listen to part one.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, I just my parents didn't start out in any churches.
They but they had a rough go of things. So
I mean they fought a lot and they drink a lot,
and I think that was their big appeal to joining
a church, with my mom leading the way because she
wasn't happy with how things were. Like I know, the
(03:11):
church provided a lot of the tools they needed to
save their marriage, so that's what they stuck it out for.
I think what was the church to start with? It
was a non denominational Bible study that met on a
Tuesday night and it kind of evolved from there. They
had they connected with a charismatic church from Florida, Okay
(03:36):
that had a bishop and definitely definitely as a cult.
They came up and kind of like orchestrated changes and said, well,
you should probably do this here, and you know, if
you're the leader, then you need to be doing that,
you know, like raining your people in and having more
control that The leader of that church that started as
(03:59):
the Bible stanfe I never viewed him as like a
cult leader, so it was kind of a weird for
him to turn into one. Like, looking back, I feel
like any church has the capacity to turn into a cult,
and like the biblical structure is there, you know, like
(04:21):
that's how how I've come to see it. I didn't
really feel like the impact of it until I started
to hit puberty, and then some of the women in
the church were uncomfortable with the relationship I had with
my dad. It was never inappropriate that I know of,
but they were uncomfortable. So my parents decided they had
(04:44):
to put some distance between us. And then, like clothing,
you know, there was never any clothing restrictions when I
was younger. When I hit puberty, it was like okay,
now you can't wear this, and you can't wear that
your body is on display, and then launched into purity culture,
(05:07):
which ended up being fairly damaging in and of itself.
Later on, during that time, my dad worked for a
guy who they were in an offshoot of the Worldwide Church.
I think they had Worldwide Literature, and my parents started
to study that and thought that that was probably for them.
(05:29):
So they decided to meet with them on Saturdays and
still go to the Bible Study on Tuesdays. Eventually, the
Tuesday Bible Study branched out to Sundays as well, and
they kind of gave my parents an ultimatum. They said,
you can't do both. You have to pick Saturday or Sunday.
(05:50):
Which church gave the ultimatum, the non denominational Bible Study Church.
Oh wow, because it totally sounds like something that Worldwide
would do. Mm hmm. Well yeah, it wasn't until after
they mixed with that cult that they just they started
(06:11):
to say things like that to people.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
You can only be part of one cult at a time,
It's basically what they were saying.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Basically, So the Bible City group that your parents started
was there otherwise, like any crossover or connection as far
as like doctrine and theology with what they found with
the other group that was more like the worldwide influence
was just like a whole new thing that they had
(06:41):
discovered over here on the side. Or was it was
there any kind of overlap with what they started doing
with the group.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
It was just they decided that whatever the Bible said
was what they wanted to do. And so with meeting
with the people that had the worldwide literature that the
Sabbath in the Holy Days, they saw that in the Bible,
so they decided that that was something that they wanted
(07:11):
to include in their religious practice.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
How old were you when, like when you when they
got the ultimatum and like, you guys are going to
shift to this more worldwide type. How old were you
at that.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Point when they gave the ultimatum? I was sixteen. When
my parents started to cross over and do both, I
was around eleven, so it was it took a while.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
You mentioned the clothing standards, What was that, like, are
we talking you know, long skirts and other like holiness
standards like no makeup, long hair, like what was that
they were?
Speaker 3 (07:55):
It was like no spaghetti straps, you know, no sleeveless
or no strapless. I mean, yours straps had to be
like three fingers wide, and you're it had to be
longer than fingertips of skirts or wear pants or shorts. Yeah,
it was like average Pentecostal type clothing requirements.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
When the ultimatum happened, kind of walk us through like
what your your family did from there, obviously switching over
to the more Sabbath Holy Day centric church, kind of
talked through like what that was like and what happened following.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
We had gone to that group for eight years and
they were kind of like family, so when they handed
that ultimatum down, it was really harsh. We my mom
and I had gone on a mission trip with that
group and it was on the way home in the
airport that the pastor gave the ultimatum to my mom.
(09:00):
So we were like a whole reeling on the airplane,
thinking how is this going to affect our life? And
what are what are we gonna do? We got home
and I mean, my dad wasn't with us at the time,
so they had to discuss. Of course, when they decided
(09:20):
to just go with the Sabbath group, the whole leadership
told everybody in the church to have pretty much have
nothing to do with us. My girl the we had
a girls group, and the mentor for that she like,
I was supposed to supposed to go over to her
house and share my mission trip photos with her, and
(09:46):
she was like, I'm sorry, but I have to back
up the leadership and I can't do that with you anymore.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Oh so sad.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So I was just like heartbroken. I mean, as a mentor,
you know, you share a fit, share things with your
mentor and you trust them. And I was just a
really big blow.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
Yeah, and you were just sixteen too, so it's not
even like you really had choice in what your parents decided,
you know what direction they decided to take the family in. No,
I didn't, So do you know what, Like, how did
they make that decision between the two churches. Was it
more along the lines of like a Sabbath conviction that
(10:32):
God's Church would be keeping Saturday.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, it was. It was God's Church would be keeping Saturday,
and if we have to choose, we have to choose that.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Yeah. I'm almost surprised. And lets unless unless Worldwide didn't
really know, I'm surprised that they were accepting of you
attending both groups because historically worldwide has not been very
forgiving about that either.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think the explanation for that would be it was
so such a rural area and there was no formal
worldwide church structure, so it was just in their house,
you know, listening to cassette tapes. Oh, I say literature.
So it wasn't controlled by that to to be a thing, right, Okay, yeah,
(11:29):
understand that. The fall before the ultimatum, my parents attended
their first FISA tabernacles in Tennessee. So I think that
also gave them like the courage to kind of step
away from their other group. Yeah, they had some support,
national support, I guess.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Okay, so then you are now fully and worldwide, and
but you are still basically on your own listening to
I guess you're probably watching the telecast and things like that.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I think we were just still on like the cassette tapes. Yeah,
it was, that's right.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
I keep forgetting because they used to do that. They
would send out tapes to people. This is weird how
that's just now coming back to me. But they would
send out tapes for people who lived in rural areas
who were not near congregations, and also like shut ins
people who weren't able to leave. So there were a
(12:37):
lot of people sprinkled throughout the world who were part
of the church but weren't necessarily part of a specific congregation.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
And it wasn't very long after the ultimatum that my
parents decided that they were kind of done with the
area and took us on a road trip, which I
mean wasn't unusual. My dad drives truck and we had
done that before. But uh so we just I guess
I don't really know what their process was, but we
(13:11):
just kind of went on the road trip until they
found somewhere they wanted to stay. And it ended up
being that group that with that group that we spent
that first Feast of Tabernacles with in Tennessee. So they
they weren't closely affiliated with Worldwide. They had had some
(13:31):
bad experiences themselves, so they considered themselves independent. And I
think we stayed there for three years before we moved
back to Montana and then so it was nineteen when
we left there.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
So is there anything notable about that three years that
you were there before you moved.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Back if But yeah, there is. While we were there,
we did get a lot more conservative and it was
partly partly on me because I was wanted to be
wanted to be a good Christian and follow the Bible
as closely as possible. Also, I was full all in,
(14:17):
you know, like that was my life. Dresses only or skirts,
head coverings. My parents we got rid of all like
statuary things like anything like dolls and fake plants, you know,
(14:38):
just really extreme while we were there.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
What was the rationale in regards to the plants, Like
I do remember like that anything that could be considered
like nick knacks, that could be considered like statuettes, could
be looked at or viewed at as as idols. And
so I kind of understand that the fake plants, I'm
(15:08):
curious about that.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
It was like like a fake thing of like God's creation,
an imitation for God's creation, and we would use to
prefer God's creation over something that was not real. That
if I remember it, that was the rationale. Oh okay,
(15:33):
that makes sense. I mean it's still very out there,
but I understand I understand the rationale at least, and
not everybody in the in that church was on the
same wavelength either, So I mean they were very much
you choose how far you're in it, Oh, okay, And
so long as you have the basic requirements of keeping
(15:57):
the Sabbath in the holy days and m clean and
unclean meats. Outside of that, you're pretty much, you know,
on your own. Oh and only one hundred percent natural
fibers too. That was that went along with.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Oh yeah, yes, and not was Did that also include
not mixing fibers?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Mm hmm it did?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Did you guys at the time consider yourselves to be
more like on the Messianic Christian side, because I know,
like when we met you guys, that was our assumption,
but I didn't know what that was like for you
or the progression of that as like more things kind
(16:44):
of came up, like you said, like the fibers thing.
Was that like a just a progression of like, well,
we should do this and we should add that. Or
was it more you know, you're taking cues from uh,
you know, somebody that maybe your parents found that is
more like in the Messianic Like which kind of direction
do you think that how that went?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I think I think it was a little bit of both,
because there was that the pastor of that church is
very towards the Messianic like use the tassels on the
corners of your garments and and all that. And he's
very also health oriented, so he did a whole bunch
of research on like frequencies of the fabrics and all
(17:24):
that kind of thing too.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
And then if I recall to at least for a time,
it was like the the beard laws to like not
rounding the corners of the beard.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Am I remembering that right? For your family?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
That that was part of it.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, my dad still has full beard.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And he's scrolled out his hair too. So that was
last ten years, I thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
So it wasn't too long after that after we left
Tennessee that we spent our first feast with you guys
at Camp beaver Fork.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Okay, so I have to ask, how did you find
Crusade Church.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
I'm not sure if it was like my mom did
some Google searching for different feast sites.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
She did.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
She does that and just and picks one that she
feels calls to her. I think that's how we were
really close with the Draymonds though, too, so that might
have been like they may have mentioned you guys.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, so Ashley, the Drymond family came to the feast
in Hot Springs. It was like our maybe our second
feast that we were hosting at Camp Yorktown Bay. The
Drymond family came and so, yeah, i'd forgotten about that man. Yeah,
that you guys had that connection to I'm still.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Really close with them, so I love them. They're like
second family.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Hi, Mary, you guys came and visited the feasts, I
guess I mean talk about like what happened from there.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, Well, it was on the heels of a really
traumatic event with like between myself and my parents. I
had met this guy and decided to date him. He
wasn't in the church. My mom flew off the handle
so so far that she's like trauma blocked it now
(19:30):
and can't remember any of it. But I remember sitting
next to him on the phone with my mom and
her just telling me that I was a disappointment and
how could I be doing this, Like it was the
end of the world, you know, to be just dating
this guy. Yeah, and it hadn't been even Yeah, the
(19:52):
whole thing from start to finish. I dated him for
two weeks.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
So I would come home and I I would get
either like the cold shoulder or scriptures wielded at me
like a weapon and I know it was out of fear,
but it's still it's still so harmful to wield anything
like that at people you love. Oh yeah, I ended
(20:19):
up breaking it off because a different friend of mine
came to me rationally and took me out and said, hey,
this is what I know about this guy, this is
what I know about you. Who do you want to be?
And so I did end up breaking off with him,
and I do feel like it was a good decision,
(20:39):
but it didn't help my relationship with my parents and
having to go back and basically apologize where I feel like,
thinking back, what why would they need me to apologize
for being human?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Yeah, it was just it was so we were on
our way to feast days after I broke up with him,
and I didn't know anybody there, and by this time
you were I was twenty going to turn twenty one
(21:18):
at the end of that year.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Okay, So you guys came to our feast and conway.
I mean, if there's anything that you can remember about that, like,
what was that experience like for you and for the family.
I mean, did it I imagine it did in some ways?
Did it trigger anything because I mean, obviously we'll get
down the road with the story where you guys were
(21:40):
part of Crusade Church for a time. But like, what
what was that feast like? From what you can recall.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
For me coming off of that trauma, it was really warm.
Everybody was really friendly and it didn't stayed out wait,
but just like initial impressions, and I got to meet
Chelsea and of course Sarah and Chen and Matt and Michael,
(22:15):
and I think I spent a lot of time just
kind of watching and feeling like, oh, if they only
knew whe I'd be so judged. But overall it was
a really good experience. There was one weird point that
didn't make any sense at the time that does now.
(22:35):
There was something about we were going over songs for
the fun Show, I think and Chelsea. We had to
leave the auditorium because Chelsea couldn't be there. At the
same time, Matt was.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Oh, do you remember, I'm sure you do. What year
this was your first visit? Have been like, oh, six,
seven or eight or somewhere in there, probably right.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I think it was two thousand and six.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, those were dark feasts from what I recall those
years for me.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Yeah, So they said that openly. They're just like saying
that openly that the two of you cannot be in
the same can't be in the room at the same time.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
There were some looks and like some quiet whispers. It
didn't it wasn't completely overt I think because I was there,
they didn't want to just like spill it all out.
I don't think like Chelsea's like, yeah, yeah, we gotta leave.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
They didn't want to out the secret shame.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
I guess, Oh my goodness, So.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I guess you were seeing from that it wasn't all
that different from what you had just experienced before coming.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
To the feast. It was just new people that were
friendly and who knows, like I wasn't. I also wasn't
a very critical thinker at that point, Like I didn't
think for myself at all, So I didn't look too
close at a lot of things, like it's safe, it's
(24:19):
safe to believe what the Bible says, it's safe to
do that, and like whatever the people around me are,
you know the status quote, just keep to that, don't
step outside any boxes or think about much, right, and
you really are trained to set aside your own thoughts
(24:42):
and opinions and any idea of critical thinking, like for
your entire life. So it's almost you don't even have
to think about it, about not thinking about the thing.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
You just don't, you know.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
So after that feast, we went to California for a
while and at the end of that we came back
for the feast the next.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Year, oh with Crusade. Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, So we spend those two in a row at Crusade.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Okay, so you you didn't attend like the local sabbath
services with Crusade, it was it was just these feasts,
so you probably kind of saw the best. I mean,
the feast is always a time where people are happy
and it's kind of festive and there's a lot going on,
(25:36):
and the community aspect of it is so strong at
the feast because you're spending so much time with all
of these people and a lot of it is organized time.
And so I can understand why you had like a
positive impression of Crusade because you weren't there for that,
you know, like week in week out politics and drama
(26:00):
and control.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I guess yeah. And I mean I was also homeschooled
from second grade, so it really feast time for me
at that point. In my life was like something I'd
never had before, you know, that sense of all around
your community, right right, So it was it was something
that I kind of and I craved. I think, yeah,
(26:24):
and you know, people my age and from being in
a rural place, people your age is minimal.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah, we definitely always looked forward to going to the
feast because you would see other kids, other people you
know that were around your age from other areas in
the country, and it was typically a time, at least
for me, where I felt like my parents were happier.
(26:55):
There seemed to be I mean, do you feel that way, Matt, Like,
I feel like the feast when I look back, those
are good memories, even though I see them in a
completely different light now. It was a good time for
our family overall.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, I agree, apart from maybe a couple of things
here and there, especially later, overall, Yeah, and I think also,
you're there's like the mandate. Maybe that's too strong of
a word, but like the mandate that you're supposed to
be happy and rejoicing. So everybody's like, yeah, we're happy,
even if even if you're not having a great time
at the moment.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
You're willing you are willing it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, so I do think like, yeah, that was the
whole vibe was you know, it's like going to a party.
It's like you're supposed to be happy, so yeah, let's
be happy.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yeah, and typically you're not worried about money for that
one week and like there is an abundance. Yeah, so
there there are things that were good about it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Oh yeah. The so you guys came to the feast
and six and seven, of course you're just like actually
said you're you know, you're kind of getting like the
best foot forward of the group and all that stuff
talk about from you know, Feast oh seven from there
for you guys.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Well, we came in for Feast oh seven and it
was kind of the same thing, you know, just everybody's
happy and friendly and we just enjoyed ourselves. I met
a guy and I wasn't I had decided not to
date for a while, like I left it off for
like six months or something to get myself straight. And
so I told him, I said, if you still want
(28:36):
to try this after, you know, in November, because that's
when my six months is up, then I'm up for it.
But after the feast, we went to Russellville, and we
ended up living in the church building for a couple
of months, and that was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
The whole family.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah, the whole family. There are six of us at
that point, so I'm the oldest, and then my sister Brianna,
who's Maddie's age, and then two younger siblings that my
parents adopted. We got to witness like the comings and
goings of everybody for interests, because I know we were
there from from feast until the middle to end the
(29:18):
end of November.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
This is pre Futon in the office though, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Before Yeah, actually, like the office was where I went
to get away from my family. Oh man, hang out
in there a lot by myself.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Excuse me, it's the pastor's layer. It's a god.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Seems so evil.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Later you called your room you guys were living at
the church. What was that like inn eight that you
guys were living in the church and came up down.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Yeah, well after after feast and oh seven, it was
definitely like October November. We were in the church for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Oh wow, so quick it was October November, like after
the feet. I didn't realize it was that bang bang.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
And so Dad invited is that this is an offer
from dad.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I really have no idea how that happened. It must
have been an invite from your dad because my parents
were looking for a new place.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
To be grow the congregation.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah. Well they found us a rental at some point
and we stayed there until it was like the end
of spring, so we stayed like six months, I think,
so that at that in November when I'd said, if
you still want to see if if there's something there,
so I did. It was a long distance thing with Kenneth.
(30:48):
Do you remember Kenneth?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yes, but I can't California place face right now.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
And he was affiliated with the church.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
He wasn't. He was just kind of in of those
on his own things in California.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
But with the same belief system basically. So it was
somebody your parents were okay with.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Mm hmmm. Yeah they were. They were okay with it.
They were approving. But I remember being on the phone
with him one time and he asked me, He's like, so,
does everything seem good there where you're at, Like, does
everything seem good with that church that you notice anything weird?
And I was like, no, not really. He's like, are
(31:29):
you sure, because I kind of noticed some things and
I kind of made me think about that and look
a little harder. But I think his his and I
relationship for me was just kind of activating my brain.
He really pushed me to, you like, sink outside the
box and think for myself and start just got that ball,
(31:50):
that ball rolling for me even though we you know,
it was a horrible breakoup, but it was beneficial. And
so with with that aspect, I didn't get really pulled
into any of the church dramas with with the single
men because that's not where I was focused. That kept
(32:10):
me out of trouble. But I remember at one point
during towards the beginning of the relationship, your dad came
to me with this list, and it was the list
of all the things, like the criteria of things that
had to be met for this to be a viable
relationship in their eyes. And I remember thinking, well, Okay,
(32:32):
this is kind of weird, but like that's not I
h I don't answer to you, you know, like that
was kind of my thinking in my head. I didn't
say that, so I was just like okay, and then
just I think maybe Sarah brought it up once more,
like the list, you know, where you're at on the list.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
I would love to see this list.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It was like independent living arrangement. At least one of
us had to have a car that was in working order,
and some of us had to have jobs. There were
a few other things, but I don't remember what.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Like that's so, I mean, there's so much overreach obviously
by all of these groups, like the leaders of these groups,
but like Dad to just be like, it's not a
viable relationship unless there's one working car. I don't even
understand where this is coming from. That is so absurd.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, preparation for marriage. I think that's where that was.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
Oh okay, yeah I did.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I don't even think I kept the list. It's gone.
I was like, weird, Well, we hadn't been there for
very long, like two or three months at the most.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
And so Kenneth came and visited.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
He was at the feast with us that that year
and that, but I didn't see him again until after
we broke up, pretty much like at the end passover.
So it was a completely over the phone virtual relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
So was this from Dad as far as you know,
like completely independent from like your parents or did he
talk to them? Did they collude, like what was I
remember some of this like vaguely, like what what what?
What was going on?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I think my parents were there when he gave us
the list, and I don't remember them talking to me
about it at all afterwards. My parents were very independent
people in the Crusade Church. They weren't going to just
follow whatever your dad said either they and they never
made it into the inner circle because of that reason,
(34:51):
their dress code standards were higher, and you know, I
would have never been allowed to wear anything that your
dad would have disapproved of. I remember that kind of
being hard, because you know, Sarah Jen had that girls
group with Chelsea and Jessica and Brianna, and we could
never be a full part of it because you know,
(35:14):
Sarah Jen liked to make people over and you here,
let me help you fit it feel pretty and which
is really nice, but that was just never an option
for me, I feel like. So I feel like the
best that I could do was to show up consistently
(35:34):
and put my all in in fitness group and maybe
I could get by.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
I think that is something that is interesting about these
groups is because you hear this kind of story repeatedly,
people will join cults or high control groups because they
want and desire community, and then there is all of
this kind of manipulation though within the group, it's almost
(36:07):
like community is used, like weaponized in a sense, you know,
like if you don't if you aren't falling completely in
line with the way that is suitable for us. And
when I say that, I you know, I mean mean
the leadership, then you don't get that full community. Then
(36:28):
it's actually like a situation where you're on the outskirts
of it. And that is so painful. But it's almost
like by the time that happens, you're in a really
vulnerable position where you're almost like willing to take breadcrumbs
over nothing or over just leaving. And I think that's
(36:52):
such a terrible way to control people using something that
is like a basic human need.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
And I know that we weren't the only ones in
that spot, Yeah, but still doesn't make it easy.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure with dad knowing
that your parents, I mean that I was gathering this
as you were speaking, that your parents likes have demonstrated
that they have a pretty that they're pretty independent, you know,
because they have been with these different groups and and
(37:32):
I'm sure for Dad like that that was never going
to be okay with him, Like the only way to
get in the inner circle and to like probably participate
in services and be really a part of it was
going to be like some form of allegiance to him.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, I mean I was a little bit useful. I
was invited to do special music quite a lot. We
didn't have too many problems. I don't think until about
midway through being there, Brianna thought Matt was cute and
she made the mistake of saying so to she, Well,
(38:14):
she can find it in somebody that leaked it, leaked
the information, so she was she was like shuttled away
if she got anywhere close to him. They definitely weren't
allowed to talk. And I mean, it's just a schoolgirl crush.
Like it wasn't even a serious thing. It's just, oh,
(38:35):
he's cute, you know. It was.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Just did you know that Matt?
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I remember the second part. I don't think I remembered
that it was that she confided in somebody and that
there was like leaked that she had a crush on me.
I knew that she did at one point and that
they were like keeping her away a type thing.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It's still it's so weird to think, like we're leaking
things that fifteen year olds are saying. And I just wondered, Matt,
if you if you didn't know that it's because she
said that, did you take that personally, like, oh, it's
me I can't be trusted because I know that that's
how Dad made you feel. So did you just think, oh, yeah,
(39:21):
I can't be trusted, so they want to make sure
that this girl is not around me.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I think probably. I don't know that I thought it
as succinctly as you just said it, but that, like
you said, we've talked about before, like there was the
whole vibe at that time of like you're the f up,
like yeah, yeah, like you said, you can't be trusted,
so we're gonna keep everybody away, just like with what
Manny was saying earlier about at the feast with them,
(39:48):
kind of like keeping Chelsea away type thing, like I
always assumed it was my fault kind of that that
was why, which maybe I'm sure that Chelsea felt that
way too, but yeah, I think that was probably the
vibe was with this situation too for me, if I
(40:08):
can recall correctly it's been a long time.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, that's hard. One of the other things that I
remember being really hard to handle was we had all
gone out for a walk for women's fitness around the
lake area or at the park. One of the ladies
that was kind of on the edge, she made a comment.
(40:34):
I don't remember what it was, but I know it
wasn't that bad, and that got it was somebody took
it as derogatory towards towards Sarah, and I remember being
called in to like a meeting was almost like a
council thing, and Sarah and Jen were there, and then
(40:56):
I was there. I think maybe Chelsea saw huh was there,
and then the lady who supposedly said the offensive thing,
and it was just it was like an inquisition at
that lady, like what did you say? Why did you
say that? How dare you say things like that? And
(41:17):
I know I know that person, she is like the softest,
kindest heart, and it was just really like there was
nothing that I could say because I didn't really hear
say it. There was nothing I could say to make
it better for her. And it was just like, you know,
when you say something about this person, it's saying it
(41:39):
about God because Larry has given me the authority and
you don't do that. And I could just see her
like get smaller and smaller in her chair. I just
it maybe really want to cry for her.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Why were all of you there? Were you all there
like as witnesses to the comment?
Speaker 3 (41:58):
I'm sure, I'm sure because as we were in the
general vicinity when the comment happened, I remember I wasn't
feeling able to be helpful. And then you know, you
just keep your head down and stay off the radar
because you don't want to get in trouble. No, you
don't want any of that directed at you.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
So was that some of your I guess along with
the list, you got some of your kind of first
view into the dysfunction and kind of the darker parts
of what was going on at Crusade.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Yep. And I remember seeing Ashley's picture at yours house.
I knew like it was your mom had put it
in a photo album, I think, and some of us
girls were looking through it and we got the impression that, oh,
she married somebody outside the church, she married a non believer,
(42:55):
and that's why we don't speak to her. Wow, And
I thought, well, that's it's really not a good enough reason,
but that's the the line we were told.
Speaker 4 (43:06):
I didn't know there were any pictures.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
There were several. There were even a couple of your kids.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
Oh really, they've literally never met them.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, but they have their photo. It's just as good.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I owe you. No, we did have for a long
time behind Dad's chair on the wall next to the
front door, the beach photo that you're in. You might
remember it. It's like I was, I don't know. Three.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Yeah, I think it's the one that grinded and Grandma
had in the way. Two.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, it's like at Pensacola that we had that like
up there forever. So they weren't super shy about those things,
and like having your photo around. I guess it's fun
when people people will say, who's that?
Speaker 4 (43:58):
Who's that? We're talking she who shall not be named.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Yeah, it's confused.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Yeah, I always wonder about that, like it, like how
they framed that whole situation with new people who didn't
know this story a brief thirty second explanation.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
That's about right.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
And the irony is that he wasn't outside the church
quote unquote, he was still part of it right.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
I know, that's what bog is my mind now after
hearing your story, I'm like, oh my gosh, that was
like grossly mispresent.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Because the truth sounds head he thinks.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
So he wasn't converted, it is what they thought. And
because he wasn't converted enough, he wasn't already baptized, then
we were un equally yot. So the obvious answer is
to just completely cut that person out.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
I'm sorry you lent through that.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah, those were the like the inroads to seeing things
weren't always quite what they seemed. I think there's only
a couple other things that I noticed before we ended
up leaving. My mom would get a little opinionated at
times towards like the end, or like pray too long
or louder about the wrong thing, or I don't know
(45:33):
what she did in each of the occasions, but there
would be a sermon for her the following week, and
she would know that it was to her. And then
there was the grandmother of the church. She also there
were also sermonts for her. They kind of felt like
(45:54):
they were grouped together a lot on that. I think
those kind of things were kind of like my parents
say that during one of the worship services, they both
heard that they were to go home to Montana, and
that's why that's the why they say they left. And
(46:14):
I don't have any other reason to believe otherwise, but
I know it was getting more and more controversial for
us to stay.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
They heard that as in like like a divine they
felt like it was a divine message, or they heard
someone in the congregation.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
They felt like it was a divine message. Yeah, for
them to go home, it wasn't very It wasn't very
long after that that Lou went back to Montana.
Speaker 4 (46:45):
How did you feel about that, about going back to Montana?
Speaker 3 (46:51):
I mean, I think I got my own theories on
how they heard what they heard. But at the time,
I mean, I was raised is to you know, the
message growing up was young women on their own, it's
not safe for them. They're easily deceived. You know, you
can't that's not something you do. You stay at home
(47:13):
until you get married. So I was twenty two. I
think at that point I felt like I had no
choice but to go with.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Them, right right, I understand that I don't.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Know that I would have felt at home enough to stay. Yeah,
I think I just felt like, well, I guess that's
what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
So when you left, what who did you affiliate with?
Or like where did you I guess I want to ask,
did you go back to where you lived before in
Montana in the same rural town we did.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
By then there was a United branch of the church.
Speaker 4 (48:00):
Oh okay, okay, So then you did have a congregation
to attend with then, And had you been indoctrinated against United,
like just through Crusade or any of the other Sabbath
keeping groups, because you know, they were all so competitive
(48:22):
with each other and like who's really the right one,
who's carrying on the torch of Herbert Armstrong? And and
so I'm curious, like if that was like almost taboo
from what you had been told from other groups like Crusade.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I think, I mean my parents, the renegades that they are. Yeah,
I gotta love that about them, because they do they do, yeah,
go where they feel like they should be. They more
took that as negative things about corporate leadership, and they
tended to judge each group based on the people in
(49:03):
the group and not on the corporate structure. So being
that it was one of the only congregations in the
area and that people were nice. Yeah, we decided to
go and it worked out for quite a while. It
worked out really well until the pastor corporate decided that
(49:24):
he was in the running for like a regional pastorship,
and then things started to change. And in that time
I met my ex husband and we got married and
had a kid or two. We rented from a friend
of my family to start off, and I found out
about a year and a half into it maybe that
(49:44):
he hadn't been paying the rent. So the landlord eventually
brought in that pastor to kind of mediate and say, well,
these this family's in your congregation, you're responsible for them.
What are you going to do about it? And the
pastor got really really upset because we weren't officially members
(50:06):
and my husband at the time, he wasn't baptized and united.
So the pastor I remember being on the phone with
him and him saying, well, your husband isn't even saved,
like there's he may be in the church, but you know,
he's not baptized with us, so we don't really count that.
(50:29):
And that made me really angry. Not for the fact
of whether my husband is or isn't because just because
what business and what right does he have to judge that?
So it got really uncomfortable for me with that and
with the financial thing. And by that time, I think
(50:50):
we had three kids under the age of four, so
I mean I was home. I felt really helpless to
do anything about any of it. I felt like it
had been hidden from me in the first place. So
with that discomfort between the pastor and my husband and myself,
(51:12):
we just decided not to go anymore.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
So then what did you do when you stopped?
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Oh, we we found some some sermon CDs from other
places that we listened to for a while. And then
gradually the things started to not make sense to me anymore,
Like head coverings. I had my oldest daughter has like
beautiful red hair, and I was like, how how could
(51:41):
anybody decide that should be covered up? Right? So then
like head covering question for me, And so each each
thing like that that happened, I questioned more and more,
and I remember feeling at one point, if I keep
questioning this, then I'm going to have to question the
whole thing. Right at the time, I mean, my husband
(52:04):
at the time, he was angry enough at the church
to you know, kind of create a space where I
could do that, and I just went all in, looking
at like different evidences for and against everything. Wow, and
I finally decided that it wasn't for me.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
If you liked this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and up based and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
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