March 19, 2025 • 44 mins
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In Ep. 56: "Room To Think," our final conversation with Mandy Jones, we continue her story from her previous episode, diving into her journey of leaving high-control religion behind. Mandy shares how stepping away gave her the space to think for herself, reshape her beliefs, and redefine her relationships with faith, family, and life as a whole. Don’t miss this powerful discussion on reclaiming autonomy and finding peace after spiritual control.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
In Ep. 56: "Room To Think," our final conversation with Mandy Jones, we continue her story from her previous episode, diving into her journey of leaving high-control religion behind. Mandy shares how stepping away gave her the space to think for herself, reshape her beliefs, and redefine her relationships with faith, family, and life as a whole. Don’t miss this powerful discussion on reclaiming autonomy and finding peace after spiritual control.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Roberts
w Armstrong and I am here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
He's making through me the Lord.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Worried about what I'm about to say, though it may
be graphic. We're coming to the Lord and if you
can take it, beyond the veil is the chamber.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
In their life. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the
Cult next Door podcast. Before we get started with today's episode,
reminder follow us on our socials, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. We
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the show. You can find the link on our Instagram
(01:12):
bio or at the top of the episode description For
the episode that you're listening to right now, So follow
that link, click record, and send us a voice message.
We want to hear from you, and no way we
can move on to today's episode without doing our Double
Portion Club shout outs Shandan, Chase, Heather Bartlett, Carla. Thank
you all for supporting the podcast. If you want to
(01:34):
be in the Double Portion shout Out club, it's ten
dollars a month, get add free episodes, shout out and
a cool sticker, or you cannot. For the five dollars
a month support tier, you'll get add free episodes and
a sticker. Just no shout out with that one and
real quick. Want to read a review? This is from
jay Len forty two says I am a grad student
currently studying social psychology. I am researching an essay on cults.
(01:58):
I am finding your podcast informative and enlightening. Thank you, Jaylen,
very much for your kind review. Okay, so today's episode
is our final episode with Mandy Jones. We talk about
her journey from leaving all the way up to where
she is now on her outlook on life and religion.
Let's take a listen.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Each thing like that that happened? I questioned more and more. Yeah,
And I remember feeling at one point, if I keep
questioning this, then I'm going to have to question the
whole thing. Right at the time, I mean my husband
at the time, he was angry enough at the church
to you know, kind of create a space where I
could do that. And I just went all in, looking
(02:40):
at like different evidences for and against everything. Wow, And
I finally decided that it wasn't for me.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And your husband was like, what what were his thoughts?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
He seemed to agree with everything that I came across,
so we were we were in agreement. That was That
was helpful.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Very That's always such a scary thing.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It is, well, I mean being in some sort of
church from eight years old to I think I was, yeah,
thirty two, thirty thirty two, when I'm looking at all
that stuff. I remember watching a show and they made
an analogy because it was about a cult. About being
(03:29):
in a cult is like having your nose up to
this picture on a wall and you can't see anything
outside of it unless you step back and then you
see the whole world. That is such a great analogy,
and that hit me really hard.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
That's perfect. I mean, I think almost everyone says that
to it in their own way when they come out.
I think, like I guess we just had recently was
talking about how, you know, like he just didn't realize
how how big the world was until he stepped outside
(04:04):
of it, and I too felt that way. It's almost
like you can't see the forest for the tree that's
like directly in front of you, and you have to
just step back to look at the whole thing. And
and I think that that, you know, that's purposeful on
the side of the cult groups. They don't want you.
(04:27):
They don't want you looking around because then you will
see that there's more out there. But I'm really glad
that you heard that and that that was like it
sounds like a defining moment for you.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
M hm, It definitely was. And some of the things
that weighed in on it is like the grandmother figure
at Crusade. I mean, Maddie knows how devoted to God
she is and how you know, peer of heart and
(05:02):
some of the things that she shared that she felt
like God told her. I just can't imagine any loving
beings saying that to somebody, And so I'm like, if
she can't, even if she's not even hearing God? How
is any who else could? Right? And so like that
was that made me question things too, because I mean,
(05:24):
surely a person that devoted would be hearing from God.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
So aside from that, Aside from that moment where you
heard that explanation of what it's like being in a cult,
were there any other pivotal moments for you and your
realization that that's what you had been part of most
of your life.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I think there's small moments that you kind of discover
along the way, in like where you find out how
twisted your thinking was on a certain thing. I don't
think I had any more huge moments, just the little
ones going along. Yeah, Like I keep having more, I
(06:12):
think as I grow and look at more things.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah, I was gonna ask. Yeah. I do feel like
it is kind of a continual process because all of
this is so baked into who we are, and I
just I feel like for me, things are just constantly
being shaken loose, and I feel like it's just a
(06:41):
process that I'll probably be participating in the rest of
my life. And I don't mean that in a bad
or like depressing kind of way, because you know, it's
not like in the beginning where it feels like information
is coming at you like you know, through a fire
hose and and everything is crumbling, like your entire belief
(07:05):
system and all of that. That's so hard in the beginning,
but it does feel like it just still is like
a trickle of things, like a consistent trickle of realizations.
So it just it kind of shows like how damaging
being part of these groups really is, you know, Like
(07:27):
you talked about purity culture some that I think just
impacts us in ways we cannot even imagine. I think
it just goes so deep.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Oh, for sure. With with getting married the first time,
it played a huge role. Yeah, you're taught if you
have a relationship and you break up, it's like divorce,
and divorce is you know, right, like one of the
worst things you can do. I mean there were other
factors like negativity in the whole, Like my adopted's sister
(08:02):
was just a piece of work. So I mean, I
really want it out, but I feel like the only
way I could get out was to get married, and
I feel like nobody wanted me. So like the first
person that stepped up and followed the rules, yeah, you know,
like being willing to follow my parents' rules was huge,
(08:24):
so like he was consistent, he showed up. Yeah, it
felt like he loved me. But then I get in,
you know, not even two weeks in, and I'm like, oh, no,
maybe this things that I couldn't have even anticipated. No,
you know, but you stick it out, work it through,
(08:44):
you know. You know my parents always said there's no
option but to work it out.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah, and imagine, like, how many people, how many people
stayed in really terrible situations because of that belief, that indoctrination.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
A lot, yeah, a lot. By the time I was
comfortable enough to get out, I wasn't in the church anymore. Right.
I don't know that I could have come to that
spot where it was okay to do that with right
and still have been in the church, right because I didn't.
But you know, I didn't have bruises. I didn't have.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
But like, let's be real, even if he did, this
would not this would not be something where you wouldn't
necessarily be supported in as far as separating yourself from him.
You know, I know my parents would have but right,
but yeah, the ministry, no, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
They would be like, well, you made your bed, now
you're in it.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I think all of that really speaks to purity culture too,
and that and I think, obviously I don't I don't
want to pretend that men aren't deeply impacted by it
as well, because they are in ways they might not
even realize. But as far as like being a woman
in the church, you know, most of the you know,
(10:13):
the holiness standards apply to women, and your role as
a woman is you know, in pleasing your husband, and
so I think, you know, like you're saying, you basically
married the first person who followed the rules and did
all of this. I think a lot of us. I
(10:35):
think a lot of us women did that in the
church because there was never an emphasis on us choosing
someone who is going to be a good match for us.
The entire focus was on how we were going to
be in service to someone else, to our husbands, you know,
(10:56):
so it really wasn't a matter of like trying to
figure out if this person, this man who's interested, is
gonna be someone who treats us well.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
That was like if you got somebody who treated you well,
you were lucky, right.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Or even somebody you really genuinely like right yeah mm hmm, yeah,
you're your whole thing. They it's so contradictory that they say, well,
you can grow up and be anything you want, but
you know, your real purpose is to just be there
for your husband, and if what you want goes outside
of that, then you have to be the one that
(11:34):
says no, yeah, I guess I don't get that. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Absolutely. And then also, like you said, your ticket to
independence and freedom outside of your family of origin, even
if you have a good family, but you don't feel
you do still feel like as a woman that you
are supposed to be under like under your father's control
to a degree, like your only way out is to
(11:59):
get me, so that that just like messes you up too,
because you're not really able to make like well thought
out decisions about the most important things that are going
to be happening in your life.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Right. Yeah, the minute somebody likes somebody else and their
feelings reciprocated, the pressure is on, like there's no room
to think.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Do you feel like? Sex is also a part of that,
because it definitely was in worldwide culture where you know, no,
people just didn't date very long at all because you
weren't supposed to have premarital sex. So people are in
(12:49):
such a hurry to just get married to whoever they
could connect to, and so I feel like that just
engendered like all of these relationships of between people who
didn't actually really know each other. Also they could just
have sex.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, I do think that was the part of it,
and the whole church party line of well everybody's parts
to everybody else's parts that I mean, there's so much
on the scale outside of that, I mean especially, I mean,
I don't know how much you want to need to
share on that experience, but no, go ahead. It ended
(13:29):
up we didn't even want the same things regarding sex,
so like we were completely incompatible.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, and there's literally no way, like you you will
never know that, Like you can never know that ahead
of time in these.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Groups when it kind of pushes you to an extreme.
On the other side of it, like on the other
side of my divorce, I was, you know, very strongly
of the opinion I'm not gonna I'm not going to
marry somebody that I haven't had sex with. Like that's
the totally opposite extreme. I don't think people necessarily need
(14:06):
to go that far, but I felt like I needed to.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
That's exactly where I was too you know, it's just like, Okay,
well I'm not gonna and I don't I don't regret that,
but but I agree with you that it's hard. It
is hard to like find balance when you've been burned
because you just want to make sure you don't do
what you did before.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Right, Yeah, And I'm like, looking back, I know that's
exactly why my parents did what they did. They were
burned by not being in a church. They were burned
by parties and bad decisions. But it didn't it wasn't
like it was an opposite extreme, right, and those extremes
(14:52):
just can be so dangerous.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, very much.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Fear, fear and guilt doesn't get you anywhere good.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
No, how do you feel like, like, do you feel
like purity culture is still impacting you, like still part
of you? Because I definitely feel like it's something that
I'm still dealing with.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, I do. I do feel like it still is,
you know, like in the decision of do I wear
a bikini to the pool or not? You know, and
I like, I know it's okay, but you still have
those feelings of like, well, right is it? Yeah? I
feel that too, And definitely that whole propensity to be
(15:37):
on the opposite end of it, you know, like be
way more lenient with my kids than I might have
been otherwise. I want them to be able to make
their own decisions and find out for themselves and feel
like I support them no matter what.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, those are good things, though I've definitely done that
with my kids too.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
One of the other things I guess I did notice
is just the community aspect of being out of the
church was shocking to me. I didn't think that it
would impact me at all.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, but I.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Didn't realize that the only way I learned to make
friends was in a church setting, like, so, then being
out of the church that I was faced with like, well, okay,
how do I make friends now that aren't in a church?
Like what kind of right social support am I going
to be able to find now? When I left my
(16:33):
ex husband, we needed, we felt I felt the need
to hide out for a few days for him to
calm down and see how he'd react, and my parents
were trying to find us a safe place to go
hide so but the family that she approached almost wouldn't
let my kids and I stay with them because we
weren't in the church anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Thankfully the wife talked her husband into it. But that
was like something that I didn't you know, now, all
the perks, you know, I didn't realize how many perks
church members offered each other until you're out and you
don't have them anymore. And I really felt emotional about
how I had treated people on the outside, like thinking
(17:17):
about my cousins and my uncles, you know that I
really genuinely care about and out of love, how I
bugged them and mistreated them, you know, to try to
right put them on the right path.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
You know, yeah, I think you know, we were talking
about this the other day with someone, a guest, where
it almost feels like, in a way, when you're in
a group like this, you are to a degree dehumanizing
other people that are outside of the group. So, you know,
(17:50):
just like the idea of well, here's this family that
that is in it like dire straits right now. They're
in a bad situation and need a place to be
for protection, but like they're not. They're they're determining whether
they give protection or not based on whether you're in
this particular group or not. Like it's just that's such
(18:14):
a wild thing. And then when you when you step
outside of that and like you meet people who you know,
Like for me, it was like the running club things
like that. It's just a weird thought that like I
know that if I needed something, any of those people
would just be willing to help. It wouldn't be conditional
(18:36):
on my belief system. And so that is like such
a stark contrast when you start making inroads making community
outside of the religious group.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It is, but I think it'll be something. I mean,
I hope it's not something I struggle with forever, but
it's been a it's been a persistent struggle. I mean
I barely joined a book club, you know, like and
it's and it feels amazing.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
What is it that you feel like you struggle with?
Like what are the what are the roadblocks there?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think just figuring out how to fit in? We're
like not necessarily, I mean, it's not about fitting in
so much as just like, how do you tell somebody
wants to be friends with you? You know, Like that
sounds silly, but that's kind of where it comes in
my head, Like how do you tell?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah? Because because we didn't learn that it is such
like we've had this a recurring theme among all of
our guests, and I really want to do a podcast
episode on just making friends as adult people someday. But yeah,
(19:54):
that that recurring theme of like I don't know how
to make friends because I've never actually had an or
organically make friends. So I feel that too and understand
because before everything was built in, So now you're approaching
these groups and there are all these insecurities and questions
(20:15):
about like how do you know you're actually accepted and
how do you know you're wanted? And so I really
feel that and understand understand that.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Mm hmm, yeah, like how how much efforts did you
put in? Like what are the ground rules even you know,
like do you invite them over? And just you can
unlimited questions on it. So yeah, most of the friends
that I've had since then have just been I guess
(20:47):
friends that I had before that still reach out.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
I feel like one aspect of this has to do
maybe with self esteem and maybe this also goes back
to the purity culture, which you know, which really emphasizes that,
you know, that power and balance between men and women,
and so there are all of these feelings that I
(21:17):
feel like are engendered in women in these groups that
you aren't really worthy as anything beyond like how you're
going to aid or help someone else. Right, So then
you go outside of the group and you try to
make friends and you're just kind of like, well, I
don't know what I have to offer someone else, and
(21:39):
so that is kind of difficult then to put yourself
out there and say, hey, do you want to meet
for coffee? Because you're just like, well, maybe they wouldn't
want to meet with me because I don't I don't
know if I have anything like a value here.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, And I think some of it goes back to
just sermons that we heard as kids. Mm hmm, like
you know, the passages of you know, we are but dirt, yes, worms, yeah,
you know, and the only value we have is in Christ.
So when you and that applies to all of us,
(22:15):
so like if you don't have that, then you, I mean,
you know you have value, but now you have to
figure out where that comes from.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Yeah, that is that's an important piece of it, because
we were taught that we were inherently bad. We're like
inherently evil.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Nobody is good, no, not much, that's right.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
Yeah. I think I think that is just illustrative of
how deep the damage goes, all the way down to
just like making friends, whereas maybe someone who's never experienced this,
like they've never even considered considered that because they have
had to make friends organically.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, I wouldn't even know some of the realizations that
came to me even recently. It's like it only just
last week occurred to me that when my sister turned eighteen,
we could have gotten a place together and been independent.
But it just never crossed my mind, and I said
something to her about it.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Would your parents have allowed.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
They would have been discouraging, but I think they would
have allowed it. It wouldn't have necessarily been easy, and
I know we would have been watched.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Right, but it would have at least been a little
bit of space.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, I think that it would have opened up space
to be able to make different decisions and figure out
what we both really wanted in life. Neither one of us,
at the point that we're at can have any complaints,
like she has a wonderful husband and three kids, and
I that loves me six kids at the time, you know,
(24:03):
at the time, I think it would have been wonderful.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Yeah, to be honest, I dreamed of that too, but
there was no way I could ever Like, I just
I didn't feel like I could leave without permission, and
I just didn't think that I was ever going to
get that.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I think another part that contributed to me dismissing that
idea before I even like formed it was my parents'
comments about other young women that got apartments together, yeah,
or went to college.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Was it going to college or was it the act
of going away that was the problem going away?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Mm hmmm, Yeah, it was the going away that was
the problem. I feel like I would have liked to
have gone to college, but I could never figure out
what I wanted to go for, and that was I
think the biggest thing with my parents. They're like, well,
if you don't know what you want to go for,
then why would you you go?
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Man, so right, but definitely don't go away.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
I think we were lucky because there was a university
right in Russellville, you know, so I was able to
take classes and that mom and dad didn't have any
issue with it. Because I'm still living at home. Yeah,
I'd be a whole other ballgame if I like, if
it was like, oh, I have to like I have
(25:25):
to go hours away. I don't think that would have
been okay, m m yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I remember being we were visiting a church with friends
one time and their daughter came back from college and
she'd cut all her hair off and she was wearing
all black, and her friends were crazy, and my parents
were just like, oh, look at that.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
That's why why the irony is like she did it
because she was probably so controlled, you know, in her
in her environment at home that like, of course she's
gonna like go and explore. It always works the opposite,
you know. I just like I always look at people
(26:07):
that like parents that are over like overbearing with their kids.
I'm always just thinking, this is going to come back
and bite you, Like you have no idea what you
are doing right now, Like you might be able to
control while they're at home, but like wait until they
leave it and it happens all the time and then
(26:28):
they think, well, we did everything that we were supposed
to do, and it's like, no.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
What happened now? But that girl, I mean, she she
ended up like growing her hair back out and working
at a bank. Yes she didn't even.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Stay bounces out. I like, in a lot of a
lot of those.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Situations, yeah, they do. Do we lose Maddie, No, I'm just.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Still like a statue. I'm just watching Ashley eat granola.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Sorry, I have a blood sugar issue and I just
realized my blood sugar is dipping, so I have to
eat this r xbar.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
You have to or else.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I'm going to like pass out. Actually, that might be
good video.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
And we're going to end the podcast there actually passed out.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Or dead thump? That was actually actually.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Probably So, you know, we've covered a lot of you know,
moments from the past twenty years plus now kind of
where do you find yourself now as far as like
your outlook on life and kind of how you want
to live and you know, Christianity or not Christianity, Like
(27:51):
where do you stand now?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I would say that I stand like definitely not a
Christian anymore. I don't relate to the Bible at all.
I mean, I know there are good things in it,
like love your neighbor and things like that. I'm trying
to get to a place where it's not so triggering
and I can just take those things for what they are.
(28:16):
But on the whole, I just kind of feel like
seeing the world as universal energy and we're all connected
through through that energy, and that that's what explains like
all the spiritual things that people experience. And there's a
lot of things that I feel like I don't know,
and that's okay. I don't feel like I was okay
(28:40):
not knowing before, But I mean, really, so what if
I don't know?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
You know, what kind of changes have you seen in
yourself since? Kind of? I mean maybe it's a cliche
word now, but I think it's probably as appropriate. It
certainly is for me. But like since deconstruction quote unquote,
And the reason I asked that for context too is
I have found I think Sandy mentioned this too, like
(29:07):
I have found that I have higher empathy now, like
I am able to kind of take each day and
moment for what it is rather than having that kind
of different worldview that we had. Have you noticed things
like that and yourself kind of since your deconstruction quote.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Unquote, Yeah, I definitely noticed.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
From before, I feel like we learned to be helpless
in those kind of structures, you know, like God as
the final word, the Bible of your pastor your parents,
and now looking at it, like, no, I'm not helpless.
I can know how I feel about this and I
can decide how I feel about that this there's just
(29:57):
a lot of exploring that and feeling like I have
this space and the openness to be able to do that.
I still, you know, I still care a lot about
other people and, like you said, have higher empathy towards
different people. I've worked really closely with a lady called
mcaul la Baron and she runs the Chronic Illness Solution,
(30:21):
and working with her has been really eye opening and healing.
I would say before I never felt like an adult.
I always felt like a little kid walking around in
a woman's body, yes, and like wondering how that happened yep.
And after working with her and just really going in
(30:42):
deep and making it okay to feel things that weren't
okay to feel before, and I feel like an adult now,
Like I feel like I have a grip on things
where I never felt that before.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
That is such an interesting point because I've said the
same thing that I felt like a child, like a
child in a woman's body, And I'm wondering, like, for you,
does that still come up sometimes? Because it does for me.
(31:19):
There are just certain triggers and I will feel like
I am back to being like a child again. Like
I almost feel like I'm just embodying a very much
younger version of myself in that moment, and I'm having
(31:40):
all of those feelings of fear and uncertainty. And I
just think that maybe as part of my process of
healing and getting through all of this. But I'm curious
if that still comes up for you any.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yes and no. I think like sometimes all happened upon
like a memory of something really traumatic, and I'll think
about it, and I'll think how andjust that was, and
I'll kind of get stuck in an emotional loop where
I just can't let go of how it felt unjust. Yeah,
So at those times, that's probably the closest to when
(32:21):
I feel like that. If I can slow down enough
to really just let myself feel everything that's there, then
I find it goes away and I can work through it.
I don't always give myself that much space at the time,
but I can always go back and do it the
(32:41):
next time it comes up. Yeah. But like when you
guys were talking about how anger was not something you
were allowed to feel, I really related to that. Oh yeah,
that was in my house. If you were angry that
you got cut off, you got you know, carted away.
You come when you're not angry anymore, that's right. Like
(33:06):
just the other day I got something added to that
of like I realized, not only was it not okay,
I also got the message of if you're angry, you
can't love me, or if you're angry, I can't love you. Yeah,
there can be no love and anger when that's really
not true. Yeah, that's a whole new thing that I'm
(33:30):
working through now. Is you know, Like I know, I
felt at times like if my husband gets mad at me,
oh that's the end of the world. Yeah, he doesn't
love me anymore. Yes, you know, it's like having to
work through that realizing no, he's just mad.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Right, it's just like a it's a normal human emotion,
but it feels so catastrophic. Oh when it happens.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I get that, And I think that's that comes from
that kind of upbringing. Absolutely does, because I mean it
was okay to feel sad. I get feel sad, but
not angry, right, working through being able to be angry
is very new.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Yeah, And I think maybe that is also a little
bit what I'm talking about when I talk about it
feeling like almost like you're a younger version of yourself
or inner child or something. I also have that experience too,
where I'm getting better, but again it's always a process.
(34:36):
My husband is mad. I will immediately go there like
well this is the end, you know, and it's and
it's like I feel like this is like little me,
you know, being scared because because when when we did
get angry as child, as children, love was taken away
(34:57):
from us, you know, we we did have that withdrawal
and experience and that is extremely scary when you're a
child because you don't know if that's coming back or not.
Like you just don't have the well your brain is
not fully functioned, you know what I mean, Like you
just literally don't know if your parents do still love
(35:20):
you or if they are going to love you again
or whatever it is. And so yeah, I think like
that younger version of me definitely emerges in moments like that,
and it's just so hard. I mean, I don't you
probably feel this, but like it's so important to have
a partner who can work with you like through those things,
(35:45):
you know, because like I had to explain that to
my husband, like because he doesn't understand why I go
into catastrophic thinking in times like this. For him, it's like, well,
everybody gets mad.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, mine definitely looks at me funny like when I
and because I don't even I haven't even been able
to verbalize that to him at this point. Yeah, but yeah,
he just me like what, you know, we're just having
an argument.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Right, But you probably didn't even realize why or where
that was coming from to be able to vocalize that,
you know, it just takes time to like really grasp
what's at play.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I mean, like I did have like my dad
when I was a kid, I think I kind of
got a glimpse of that with him, you know, because
he would get mad and then it was fine, and
at a certain point I got to know that I
know that he'll love me tomorrow, you know, But like
m I think with a mom. With with my mom,
(36:54):
it was a lot more pronounced, and I think that
she must have grown up a little bit that way herself. Yeah,
to have that pattern, Even having that little glimpse from
my dad that you know, I'll still love you tomorrow,
it didn't stick with me like the other stuck with me.
And I do think that Church kind of perpetuated that
(37:17):
along because if God is mad at you, you can
go to hell, you.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
Know, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Was hell something that was a source of fear that
kind of was hanging over your head growing up.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
In a way like when I at first, you know,
like the Bible Stay group that we were in to
start with, they believed in the traditional view of heaven
and hell, if I remember right, And then later on
the view kind of evolved to, well, you just don't
exist anymore if at the end of time Jesus comes
(37:57):
back and you're you know, not found to your heart's
not in the right spot, And so I get like
burning forever would be really scary. But then when it
kind of shifted to that and it's like, well that
I would just wouldn't exist anymore. I guess that's not
so bad. You know, I still want to be good.
(38:19):
I still want to do the right things because you know,
I want to be loved. But it wasn't wasn't a
huge source of fear for me more that here and
now separation from love was more scary to me.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Okay, Mandy, this may be kind of broad, but just
do the best you can if you I guess I'll
start off with this. We hear from so many people,
get messages and emails and stuff from so many people
who are either you know, pretty freshly out of some
(38:59):
kind of control group, culled something, or they're kind of
at the stage of where they're probably going to leave
that situation. So the question related to that would be if,
based on your experience, what's one thing that you would
want those people to know.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I guess to know that they already have everything they
need inside of themselves. I know that doesn't always seem
comforting when you're in that spot, but if you can
kind of get a foothold there and remember that, it
can kind of give you the strength to reach out
to other people outside and to know that these people
(39:46):
that have been harming you, or the beliefs that have
been harming you, don't have the power that they say
they have. I love that, and that there's a lot
of us out here if you can find us.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Yes, that is definitely true. There's far for far more
people out there than I think we ever realized.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I was really happy when I saw that you guys
are doing the podcast and the year that you got out.
Really yeah, really happy for you about that how.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Did you find out about the podcast?
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I think Chelsea had shared on Facebook.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
She's sweet, she is.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
I love her. Yeah, I'm still I think I've got
several people from then on my Facebook that I keep
in contact with a little bit.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I'm always curious to hear how the podcast makes it around.
We don't know the numbers for sure, but I feel
like it's been widely circulating within some of the you know,
Sabbath keeping groups like Worldwide Church of God off shoots
and groups like it.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
So and I wish that so. Like one of the
one of the older ladies in the United Church, she
had been in Worldwide, and I did some painting for
her one time, and she talked to me all day
stories about Worldwide. And I wish I could remember like
names and stories because they were so they were so juicy.
(41:26):
But I just remember her that they in the in
the founding stages of Worldwide. She was in on it,
and they had a whole it was the prayer prayer chain,
but it was the church gossip. So she got to
hear a lot of the things that went on.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
Oh my goodness, oh man, we're gonna pray for this person,
and here's what they're doing here, terrible sin that they're
struggling with. Oh my gosh. Oh I've heard that stuff before,
(42:07):
and it's like always under the guise of like, we're
really concerned about this person, but really all they want
to say is like this person is struggling with being
faithful to their spouse or whatever. You know, It's like
there's always a gossip slant to it. So and so
(42:28):
has a demon problem. Gosh, I heard that about a
million times.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
She had a lot of stories.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
I bet she did tell her to contact us.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah. Wow, she died a few years ago, so I can't.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
Oh, yeah, she.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Was like in her seventies or eighties.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Then, Yeah, there can't be a lot of those old
timers left.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
No.
Speaker 4 (42:55):
Yeah, I really really appreciate you coming on. So I no,
it doesn't This isn't easy an easy choice.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
No, I know. I was thinking, like my mom could
hear this. I'm like, oh no, oh. I love her,
and she's she's recently been more open to doing some
healing herself. So I'm hopeful for for what that's going
to bring.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Oh that's great. Yeah, it's kind of hard like when
you are when you grow up and then you have
kids of your own, and then you look at your
parents from that perspective and realize that they also have
their own trauma. It's just hard. It's hard to because
(43:39):
you feel for them, but you also needed certain things
from them that maybe you didn't get right. It just
very can be very complicated, for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah. I mean, because she's found a way to be
supportive of me to the utmost, you know, with my
divorce and move in kids and just really really supportive.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
Good.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
That doesn't mean we haven't gotten into a few religious arguments,
but they're getting more rational, I feel like, at least
on my end, because I feel less triggered. Yeah, each
time it comes up.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
If you like this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
The world tomorrow, The Worldwide Church of God presents Roberts
w Armstrong and I am here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
He's making through me the Lord.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You know, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Worried about what I'm about to say, though it may
be graphic. We're coming to the Lord and if you
can take it, beyond the veil is the chamber.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
In their life. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the
Cult next Door podcast. Before we get started with today's episode,
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(01:12):
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(01:34):
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real quick. Want to read a review? This is from
jay Len forty two says I am a grad student
currently studying social psychology. I am researching an essay on cults.
(01:58):
I am finding your podcast informative and enlightening. Thank you, Jaylen,
very much for your kind review. Okay, so today's episode
is our final episode with Mandy Jones. We talk about
her journey from leaving all the way up to where
she is now on her outlook on life and religion.
Let's take a listen.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Each thing like that that happened? I questioned more and more. Yeah,
And I remember feeling at one point, if I keep
questioning this, then I'm going to have to question the
whole thing. Right at the time, I mean my husband
at the time, he was angry enough at the church
to you know, kind of create a space where I
could do that. And I just went all in, looking
(02:40):
at like different evidences for and against everything. Wow, And
I finally decided that it wasn't for me.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And your husband was like, what what were his thoughts?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
He seemed to agree with everything that I came across,
so we were we were in agreement. That was That
was helpful.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Very That's always such a scary thing.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It is, well, I mean being in some sort of
church from eight years old to I think I was, yeah,
thirty two, thirty thirty two, when I'm looking at all
that stuff. I remember watching a show and they made
an analogy because it was about a cult. About being
(03:29):
in a cult is like having your nose up to
this picture on a wall and you can't see anything
outside of it unless you step back and then you
see the whole world. That is such a great analogy,
and that hit me really hard.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
That's perfect. I mean, I think almost everyone says that
to it in their own way when they come out.
I think, like I guess we just had recently was
talking about how, you know, like he just didn't realize
how how big the world was until he stepped outside
(04:04):
of it, and I too felt that way. It's almost
like you can't see the forest for the tree that's
like directly in front of you, and you have to
just step back to look at the whole thing. And
and I think that that, you know, that's purposeful on
the side of the cult groups. They don't want you.
(04:27):
They don't want you looking around because then you will
see that there's more out there. But I'm really glad
that you heard that and that that was like it
sounds like a defining moment for you.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
M hm, It definitely was. And some of the things
that weighed in on it is like the grandmother figure
at Crusade. I mean, Maddie knows how devoted to God
she is and how you know, peer of heart and
(05:02):
some of the things that she shared that she felt
like God told her. I just can't imagine any loving
beings saying that to somebody, And so I'm like, if
she can't, even if she's not even hearing God? How
is any who else could? Right? And so like that
was that made me question things too, because I mean,
(05:24):
surely a person that devoted would be hearing from God.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
So aside from that, Aside from that moment where you
heard that explanation of what it's like being in a cult,
were there any other pivotal moments for you and your
realization that that's what you had been part of most
of your life.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I think there's small moments that you kind of discover
along the way, in like where you find out how
twisted your thinking was on a certain thing. I don't
think I had any more huge moments, just the little
ones going along. Yeah, Like I keep having more, I
(06:12):
think as I grow and look at more things.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah, I was gonna ask. Yeah. I do feel like
it is kind of a continual process because all of
this is so baked into who we are, and I
just I feel like for me, things are just constantly
being shaken loose, and I feel like it's just a
(06:41):
process that I'll probably be participating in the rest of
my life. And I don't mean that in a bad
or like depressing kind of way, because you know, it's
not like in the beginning where it feels like information
is coming at you like you know, through a fire
hose and and everything is crumbling, like your entire belief
(07:05):
system and all of that. That's so hard in the beginning,
but it does feel like it just still is like
a trickle of things, like a consistent trickle of realizations.
So it just it kind of shows like how damaging
being part of these groups really is, you know, Like
(07:27):
you talked about purity culture some that I think just
impacts us in ways we cannot even imagine. I think
it just goes so deep.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Oh, for sure. With with getting married the first time,
it played a huge role. Yeah, you're taught if you
have a relationship and you break up, it's like divorce,
and divorce is you know, right, like one of the
worst things you can do. I mean there were other
factors like negativity in the whole, Like my adopted's sister
(08:02):
was just a piece of work. So I mean, I
really want it out, but I feel like the only
way I could get out was to get married, and
I feel like nobody wanted me. So like the first
person that stepped up and followed the rules, yeah, you know,
like being willing to follow my parents' rules was huge,
(08:24):
so like he was consistent, he showed up. Yeah, it
felt like he loved me. But then I get in,
you know, not even two weeks in, and I'm like, oh, no,
maybe this things that I couldn't have even anticipated. No,
you know, but you stick it out, work it through,
(08:44):
you know. You know my parents always said there's no
option but to work it out.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah, and imagine, like, how many people, how many people
stayed in really terrible situations because of that belief, that indoctrination.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
A lot, yeah, a lot. By the time I was
comfortable enough to get out, I wasn't in the church anymore. Right.
I don't know that I could have come to that
spot where it was okay to do that with right
and still have been in the church, right because I didn't.
But you know, I didn't have bruises. I didn't have.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
But like, let's be real, even if he did, this
would not this would not be something where you wouldn't
necessarily be supported in as far as separating yourself from him.
You know, I know my parents would have but right,
but yeah, the ministry, no, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
They would be like, well, you made your bed, now
you're in it.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I think all of that really speaks to purity culture too,
and that and I think, obviously I don't I don't
want to pretend that men aren't deeply impacted by it
as well, because they are in ways they might not
even realize. But as far as like being a woman
in the church, you know, most of the you know,
(10:13):
the holiness standards apply to women, and your role as
a woman is you know, in pleasing your husband, and
so I think, you know, like you're saying, you basically
married the first person who followed the rules and did
all of this. I think a lot of us. I
(10:35):
think a lot of us women did that in the
church because there was never an emphasis on us choosing
someone who is going to be a good match for us.
The entire focus was on how we were going to
be in service to someone else, to our husbands, you know,
(10:56):
so it really wasn't a matter of like trying to
figure out if this person, this man who's interested, is
gonna be someone who treats us well.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
That was like if you got somebody who treated you well,
you were lucky, right.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Or even somebody you really genuinely like right yeah mm hmm, yeah,
you're your whole thing. They it's so contradictory that they say, well,
you can grow up and be anything you want, but
you know, your real purpose is to just be there
for your husband, and if what you want goes outside
of that, then you have to be the one that
(11:34):
says no, yeah, I guess I don't get that. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Absolutely. And then also, like you said, your ticket to
independence and freedom outside of your family of origin, even
if you have a good family, but you don't feel
you do still feel like as a woman that you
are supposed to be under like under your father's control
to a degree, like your only way out is to
(11:59):
get me, so that that just like messes you up too,
because you're not really able to make like well thought
out decisions about the most important things that are going
to be happening in your life.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Right. Yeah, the minute somebody likes somebody else and their
feelings reciprocated, the pressure is on, like there's no room
to think.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Do you feel like? Sex is also a part of that,
because it definitely was in worldwide culture where you know, no,
people just didn't date very long at all because you
weren't supposed to have premarital sex. So people are in
(12:49):
such a hurry to just get married to whoever they
could connect to, and so I feel like that just
engendered like all of these relationships of between people who
didn't actually really know each other. Also they could just
have sex.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, I do think that was the part of it,
and the whole church party line of well everybody's parts
to everybody else's parts that I mean, there's so much
on the scale outside of that, I mean especially, I mean,
I don't know how much you want to need to
share on that experience, but no, go ahead. It ended
(13:29):
up we didn't even want the same things regarding sex,
so like we were completely incompatible.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, and there's literally no way, like you you will
never know that, Like you can never know that ahead
of time in these.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Groups when it kind of pushes you to an extreme.
On the other side of it, like on the other
side of my divorce, I was, you know, very strongly
of the opinion I'm not gonna I'm not going to
marry somebody that I haven't had sex with. Like that's
the totally opposite extreme. I don't think people necessarily need
(14:06):
to go that far, but I felt like I needed to.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
That's exactly where I was too you know, it's just like, Okay,
well I'm not gonna and I don't I don't regret that,
but but I agree with you that it's hard. It
is hard to like find balance when you've been burned
because you just want to make sure you don't do
what you did before.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Right, Yeah, And I'm like, looking back, I know that's
exactly why my parents did what they did. They were
burned by not being in a church. They were burned
by parties and bad decisions. But it didn't it wasn't
like it was an opposite extreme, right, and those extremes
(14:52):
just can be so dangerous.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, very much.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Fear, fear and guilt doesn't get you anywhere good.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
No, how do you feel like, like, do you feel
like purity culture is still impacting you, like still part
of you? Because I definitely feel like it's something that
I'm still dealing with.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, I do. I do feel like it still is,
you know, like in the decision of do I wear
a bikini to the pool or not? You know, and
I like, I know it's okay, but you still have
those feelings of like, well, right is it? Yeah? I
feel that too, And definitely that whole propensity to be
(15:37):
on the opposite end of it, you know, like be
way more lenient with my kids than I might have
been otherwise. I want them to be able to make
their own decisions and find out for themselves and feel
like I support them no matter what.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, those are good things, though I've definitely done that
with my kids too.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
One of the other things I guess I did notice
is just the community aspect of being out of the
church was shocking to me. I didn't think that it
would impact me at all.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, but I.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Didn't realize that the only way I learned to make
friends was in a church setting, like, so, then being
out of the church that I was faced with like, well, okay,
how do I make friends now that aren't in a church?
Like what kind of right social support am I going
to be able to find now? When I left my
(16:33):
ex husband, we needed, we felt I felt the need
to hide out for a few days for him to
calm down and see how he'd react, and my parents
were trying to find us a safe place to go
hide so but the family that she approached almost wouldn't
let my kids and I stay with them because we
weren't in the church anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Thankfully the wife talked her husband into it. But that
was like something that I didn't you know, now, all
the perks, you know, I didn't realize how many perks
church members offered each other until you're out and you
don't have them anymore. And I really felt emotional about
how I had treated people on the outside, like thinking
(17:17):
about my cousins and my uncles, you know that I
really genuinely care about and out of love, how I
bugged them and mistreated them, you know, to try to
right put them on the right path.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
You know, yeah, I think you know, we were talking
about this the other day with someone, a guest, where
it almost feels like, in a way, when you're in
a group like this, you are to a degree dehumanizing
other people that are outside of the group. So, you know,
(17:50):
just like the idea of well, here's this family that
that is in it like dire straits right now. They're
in a bad situation and need a place to be
for protection, but like they're not. They're they're determining whether
they give protection or not based on whether you're in
this particular group or not. Like it's just that's such
(18:14):
a wild thing. And then when you when you step
outside of that and like you meet people who you know,
Like for me, it was like the running club things
like that. It's just a weird thought that like I
know that if I needed something, any of those people
would just be willing to help. It wouldn't be conditional
(18:36):
on my belief system. And so that is like such
a stark contrast when you start making inroads making community
outside of the religious group.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It is, but I think it'll be something. I mean,
I hope it's not something I struggle with forever, but
it's been a it's been a persistent struggle. I mean
I barely joined a book club, you know, like and
it's and it feels amazing.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
What is it that you feel like you struggle with?
Like what are the what are the roadblocks there?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think just figuring out how to fit in? We're
like not necessarily, I mean, it's not about fitting in
so much as just like, how do you tell somebody
wants to be friends with you? You know, Like that
sounds silly, but that's kind of where it comes in
my head, Like how do you tell?
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah? Because because we didn't learn that it is such
like we've had this a recurring theme among all of
our guests, and I really want to do a podcast
episode on just making friends as adult people someday. But yeah,
(19:54):
that that recurring theme of like I don't know how
to make friends because I've never actually had an or
organically make friends. So I feel that too and understand
because before everything was built in, So now you're approaching
these groups and there are all these insecurities and questions
(20:15):
about like how do you know you're actually accepted and
how do you know you're wanted? And so I really
feel that and understand understand that.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Mm hmm, yeah, like how how much efforts did you
put in? Like what are the ground rules even you know,
like do you invite them over? And just you can
unlimited questions on it. So yeah, most of the friends
that I've had since then have just been I guess
(20:47):
friends that I had before that still reach out.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
I feel like one aspect of this has to do
maybe with self esteem and maybe this also goes back
to the purity culture, which you know, which really emphasizes that,
you know, that power and balance between men and women,
and so there are all of these feelings that I
(21:17):
feel like are engendered in women in these groups that
you aren't really worthy as anything beyond like how you're
going to aid or help someone else. Right, So then
you go outside of the group and you try to
make friends and you're just kind of like, well, I
don't know what I have to offer someone else, and
(21:39):
so that is kind of difficult then to put yourself
out there and say, hey, do you want to meet
for coffee? Because you're just like, well, maybe they wouldn't
want to meet with me because I don't I don't
know if I have anything like a value here.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, And I think some of it goes back to
just sermons that we heard as kids. Mm hmm, like
you know, the passages of you know, we are but dirt, yes, worms, yeah,
you know, and the only value we have is in Christ.
So when you and that applies to all of us,
(22:15):
so like if you don't have that, then you, I mean,
you know you have value, but now you have to
figure out where that comes from.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Yeah, that is that's an important piece of it, because
we were taught that we were inherently bad. We're like
inherently evil.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Nobody is good, no, not much, that's right.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
Yeah. I think I think that is just illustrative of
how deep the damage goes, all the way down to
just like making friends, whereas maybe someone who's never experienced this,
like they've never even considered considered that because they have
had to make friends organically.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, I wouldn't even know some of the realizations that
came to me even recently. It's like it only just
last week occurred to me that when my sister turned eighteen,
we could have gotten a place together and been independent.
But it just never crossed my mind, and I said
something to her about it.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Would your parents have allowed.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
They would have been discouraging, but I think they would
have allowed it. It wouldn't have necessarily been easy, and
I know we would have been watched.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Right, but it would have at least been a little
bit of space.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, I think that it would have opened up space
to be able to make different decisions and figure out
what we both really wanted in life. Neither one of us,
at the point that we're at can have any complaints,
like she has a wonderful husband and three kids, and
I that loves me six kids at the time, you know,
(24:03):
at the time, I think it would have been wonderful.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Yeah, to be honest, I dreamed of that too, but
there was no way I could ever Like, I just
I didn't feel like I could leave without permission, and
I just didn't think that I was ever going to
get that.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I think another part that contributed to me dismissing that
idea before I even like formed it was my parents'
comments about other young women that got apartments together, yeah,
or went to college.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Was it going to college or was it the act
of going away that was the problem going away?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Mm hmmm, Yeah, it was the going away that was
the problem. I feel like I would have liked to
have gone to college, but I could never figure out
what I wanted to go for, and that was I
think the biggest thing with my parents. They're like, well,
if you don't know what you want to go for,
then why would you you go?
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Man, so right, but definitely don't go away.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
I think we were lucky because there was a university
right in Russellville, you know, so I was able to
take classes and that mom and dad didn't have any
issue with it. Because I'm still living at home. Yeah,
I'd be a whole other ballgame if I like, if
it was like, oh, I have to like I have
(25:25):
to go hours away. I don't think that would have
been okay, m m yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I remember being we were visiting a church with friends
one time and their daughter came back from college and
she'd cut all her hair off and she was wearing
all black, and her friends were crazy, and my parents
were just like, oh, look at that.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
That's why why the irony is like she did it
because she was probably so controlled, you know, in her
in her environment at home that like, of course she's
gonna like go and explore. It always works the opposite,
you know. I just like I always look at people
(26:07):
that like parents that are over like overbearing with their kids.
I'm always just thinking, this is going to come back
and bite you, Like you have no idea what you
are doing right now, Like you might be able to
control while they're at home, but like wait until they
leave it and it happens all the time and then
(26:28):
they think, well, we did everything that we were supposed
to do, and it's like, no.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
What happened now? But that girl, I mean, she she
ended up like growing her hair back out and working
at a bank. Yes she didn't even.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
Stay bounces out. I like, in a lot of a
lot of those.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Situations, yeah, they do. Do we lose Maddie, No, I'm just.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Still like a statue. I'm just watching Ashley eat granola.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Sorry, I have a blood sugar issue and I just
realized my blood sugar is dipping, so I have to
eat this r xbar.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
You have to or else.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I'm going to like pass out. Actually, that might be
good video.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
And we're going to end the podcast there actually passed out.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Or dead thump? That was actually actually.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Probably So, you know, we've covered a lot of you know,
moments from the past twenty years plus now kind of
where do you find yourself now as far as like
your outlook on life and kind of how you want
to live and you know, Christianity or not Christianity, Like
(27:51):
where do you stand now?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I would say that I stand like definitely not a
Christian anymore. I don't relate to the Bible at all.
I mean, I know there are good things in it,
like love your neighbor and things like that. I'm trying
to get to a place where it's not so triggering
and I can just take those things for what they are.
(28:16):
But on the whole, I just kind of feel like
seeing the world as universal energy and we're all connected
through through that energy, and that that's what explains like
all the spiritual things that people experience. And there's a
lot of things that I feel like I don't know,
and that's okay. I don't feel like I was okay
(28:40):
not knowing before, But I mean, really, so what if
I don't know?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
You know, what kind of changes have you seen in
yourself since? Kind of? I mean maybe it's a cliche
word now, but I think it's probably as appropriate. It
certainly is for me. But like since deconstruction quote unquote,
And the reason I asked that for context too is
I have found I think Sandy mentioned this too, like
(29:07):
I have found that I have higher empathy now, like
I am able to kind of take each day and
moment for what it is rather than having that kind
of different worldview that we had. Have you noticed things
like that and yourself kind of since your deconstruction quote.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Unquote, Yeah, I definitely noticed.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
From before, I feel like we learned to be helpless
in those kind of structures, you know, like God as
the final word, the Bible of your pastor your parents,
and now looking at it, like, no, I'm not helpless.
I can know how I feel about this and I
can decide how I feel about that this there's just
(29:57):
a lot of exploring that and feeling like I have
this space and the openness to be able to do that.
I still, you know, I still care a lot about
other people and, like you said, have higher empathy towards
different people. I've worked really closely with a lady called
mcaul la Baron and she runs the Chronic Illness Solution,
(30:21):
and working with her has been really eye opening and healing.
I would say before I never felt like an adult.
I always felt like a little kid walking around in
a woman's body, yes, and like wondering how that happened yep.
And after working with her and just really going in
(30:42):
deep and making it okay to feel things that weren't
okay to feel before, and I feel like an adult now,
Like I feel like I have a grip on things
where I never felt that before.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
That is such an interesting point because I've said the
same thing that I felt like a child, like a
child in a woman's body, And I'm wondering, like, for you,
does that still come up sometimes? Because it does for me.
(31:19):
There are just certain triggers and I will feel like
I am back to being like a child again. Like
I almost feel like I'm just embodying a very much
younger version of myself in that moment, and I'm having
(31:40):
all of those feelings of fear and uncertainty. And I
just think that maybe as part of my process of
healing and getting through all of this. But I'm curious
if that still comes up for you any.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yes and no. I think like sometimes all happened upon
like a memory of something really traumatic, and I'll think
about it, and I'll think how andjust that was, and
I'll kind of get stuck in an emotional loop where
I just can't let go of how it felt unjust. Yeah,
So at those times, that's probably the closest to when
(32:21):
I feel like that. If I can slow down enough
to really just let myself feel everything that's there, then
I find it goes away and I can work through it.
I don't always give myself that much space at the time,
but I can always go back and do it the
(32:41):
next time it comes up. Yeah. But like when you
guys were talking about how anger was not something you
were allowed to feel, I really related to that. Oh yeah,
that was in my house. If you were angry that
you got cut off, you got you know, carted away.
You come when you're not angry anymore, that's right. Like
(33:06):
just the other day I got something added to that
of like I realized, not only was it not okay,
I also got the message of if you're angry, you
can't love me, or if you're angry, I can't love you. Yeah,
there can be no love and anger when that's really
not true. Yeah, that's a whole new thing that I'm
(33:30):
working through now. Is you know, Like I know, I
felt at times like if my husband gets mad at me,
oh that's the end of the world. Yeah, he doesn't
love me anymore. Yes, you know, it's like having to
work through that realizing no, he's just mad.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Right, it's just like a it's a normal human emotion,
but it feels so catastrophic. Oh when it happens.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I get that, And I think that's that comes from
that kind of upbringing. Absolutely does, because I mean it
was okay to feel sad. I get feel sad, but
not angry, right, working through being able to be angry
is very new.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Yeah, And I think maybe that is also a little
bit what I'm talking about when I talk about it
feeling like almost like you're a younger version of yourself
or inner child or something. I also have that experience too,
where I'm getting better, but again it's always a process.
(34:36):
My husband is mad. I will immediately go there like
well this is the end, you know, and it's and
it's like I feel like this is like little me,
you know, being scared because because when when we did
get angry as child, as children, love was taken away
(34:57):
from us, you know, we we did have that withdrawal
and experience and that is extremely scary when you're a
child because you don't know if that's coming back or not.
Like you just don't have the well your brain is
not fully functioned, you know what I mean, Like you
just literally don't know if your parents do still love
(35:20):
you or if they are going to love you again
or whatever it is. And so yeah, I think like
that younger version of me definitely emerges in moments like that,
and it's just so hard. I mean, I don't you
probably feel this, but like it's so important to have
a partner who can work with you like through those things,
(35:45):
you know, because like I had to explain that to
my husband, like because he doesn't understand why I go
into catastrophic thinking in times like this. For him, it's like, well,
everybody gets mad.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, mine definitely looks at me funny like when I
and because I don't even I haven't even been able
to verbalize that to him at this point. Yeah, but yeah,
he just me like what, you know, we're just having
an argument.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Right, But you probably didn't even realize why or where
that was coming from to be able to vocalize that,
you know, it just takes time to like really grasp
what's at play.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I mean, like I did have like my dad
when I was a kid, I think I kind of
got a glimpse of that with him, you know, because
he would get mad and then it was fine, and
at a certain point I got to know that I
know that he'll love me tomorrow, you know, But like
m I think with a mom. With with my mom,
(36:54):
it was a lot more pronounced, and I think that
she must have grown up a little bit that way herself. Yeah,
to have that pattern, Even having that little glimpse from
my dad that you know, I'll still love you tomorrow,
it didn't stick with me like the other stuck with me.
And I do think that Church kind of perpetuated that
(37:17):
along because if God is mad at you, you can
go to hell, you.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
Know, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Was hell something that was a source of fear that
kind of was hanging over your head growing up.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
In a way like when I at first, you know,
like the Bible Stay group that we were in to
start with, they believed in the traditional view of heaven
and hell, if I remember right, And then later on
the view kind of evolved to, well, you just don't
exist anymore if at the end of time Jesus comes
(37:57):
back and you're you know, not found to your heart's
not in the right spot, And so I get like
burning forever would be really scary. But then when it
kind of shifted to that and it's like, well that
I would just wouldn't exist anymore. I guess that's not
so bad. You know, I still want to be good.
(38:19):
I still want to do the right things because you know,
I want to be loved. But it wasn't wasn't a
huge source of fear for me more that here and
now separation from love was more scary to me.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Okay, Mandy, this may be kind of broad, but just
do the best you can if you I guess I'll
start off with this. We hear from so many people,
get messages and emails and stuff from so many people
who are either you know, pretty freshly out of some
(38:59):
kind of control group, culled something, or they're kind of
at the stage of where they're probably going to leave
that situation. So the question related to that would be if,
based on your experience, what's one thing that you would
want those people to know.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I guess to know that they already have everything they
need inside of themselves. I know that doesn't always seem
comforting when you're in that spot, but if you can
kind of get a foothold there and remember that, it
can kind of give you the strength to reach out
to other people outside and to know that these people
(39:46):
that have been harming you, or the beliefs that have
been harming you, don't have the power that they say
they have. I love that, and that there's a lot
of us out here if you can find us.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Yes, that is definitely true. There's far for far more
people out there than I think we ever realized.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I was really happy when I saw that you guys
are doing the podcast and the year that you got out.
Really yeah, really happy for you about that how.
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Did you find out about the podcast?
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I think Chelsea had shared on Facebook.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
She's sweet, she is.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
I love her. Yeah, I'm still I think I've got
several people from then on my Facebook that I keep
in contact with a little bit.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I'm always curious to hear how the podcast makes it around.
We don't know the numbers for sure, but I feel
like it's been widely circulating within some of the you know,
Sabbath keeping groups like Worldwide Church of God off shoots
and groups like it.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
So and I wish that so. Like one of the
one of the older ladies in the United Church, she
had been in Worldwide, and I did some painting for
her one time, and she talked to me all day
stories about Worldwide. And I wish I could remember like
names and stories because they were so they were so juicy.
(41:26):
But I just remember her that they in the in
the founding stages of Worldwide. She was in on it,
and they had a whole it was the prayer prayer chain,
but it was the church gossip. So she got to
hear a lot of the things that went on.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
Oh my goodness, oh man, we're gonna pray for this person,
and here's what they're doing here, terrible sin that they're
struggling with. Oh my gosh. Oh I've heard that stuff before,
(42:07):
and it's like always under the guise of like, we're
really concerned about this person, but really all they want
to say is like this person is struggling with being
faithful to their spouse or whatever. You know, It's like
there's always a gossip slant to it. So and so
(42:28):
has a demon problem. Gosh, I heard that about a
million times.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
She had a lot of stories.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
I bet she did tell her to contact us.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah. Wow, she died a few years ago, so I can't.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
Oh, yeah, she.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Was like in her seventies or eighties.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Then, Yeah, there can't be a lot of those old
timers left.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
No.
Speaker 4 (42:55):
Yeah, I really really appreciate you coming on. So I no,
it doesn't This isn't easy an easy choice.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
No, I know. I was thinking, like my mom could
hear this. I'm like, oh no, oh. I love her,
and she's she's recently been more open to doing some
healing herself. So I'm hopeful for for what that's going
to bring.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Oh that's great. Yeah, it's kind of hard like when
you are when you grow up and then you have
kids of your own, and then you look at your
parents from that perspective and realize that they also have
their own trauma. It's just hard. It's hard to because
(43:39):
you feel for them, but you also needed certain things
from them that maybe you didn't get right. It just
very can be very complicated, for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah. I mean, because she's found a way to be
supportive of me to the utmost, you know, with my
divorce and move in kids and just really really supportive.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
Good.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
That doesn't mean we haven't gotten into a few religious arguments,
but they're getting more rational, I feel like, at least
on my end, because I feel less triggered. Yeah, each
time it comes up.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
If you like this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
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