Ep.57: "Substituted Therapy"

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In Ep. 57: "Substituted Therapy," we reconnect with Blake Moorer for a follow-up conversation about where he is now in his healing journey. Blake opens up about what has helped, what hasn’t, and the challenges of navigating recovery after leaving a high-control environment. He also shares his hopes for the future and the ongoing process of rebuilding his life.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong and.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.

Speaker 4 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.

Speaker 5 (00:16):
He's speaking through.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Me the Lord.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Can take it, beyond.

Speaker 5 (00:32):
The veil is the chamber.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber.

Speaker 5 (00:35):
The Lord told me that.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able to.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Tell people what's wrong with them, what.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
They must do in life, the sins that they are
holding back in their life. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to the Cult next Door Podcast. Before we get started,
as always, when we remind you all to follow us
on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, all them places where the kids are,
we're there. We also have a new way for you
to connect with us, which has been pretty cool.

Speaker 5 (01:08):
We've had a few of these.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Come in in the past week or ten days whenever
it was that we unveiled this.

Speaker 5 (01:13):
But It is a way.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
That you can leave us a voice message with a
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get sent straight to our email and we may put
it on the show if it's good. Also, want to
do our Double Portion Club shoutouts real quick before we

(01:37):
get started. Shanda and Chase, thank you both. Heather Bartlett
and then Carla, thank you all for supporting the podcast.
You deserve your shout out. If you guys want to
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(01:58):
Nextdoor holographic sticker. Now I'm going to read our rating
and review. This is a good one star and this
is a good segue into today's episode.

Speaker 5 (02:08):
I love this one.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
I woke up to this this morning, so it was
a nice eight am wake up looking on. Yeah, thank
you whoever this is the name they The name they
left was too many episodes, so I don't know who
you are, but I appreciate this. It says boring, depressing,
badly produced. I really tried to get into this podcast,

(02:29):
but after listening to about five or six episodes, you
realize that this show is just the substituted therapy for
the host to talk about their dad, how their dad
was mean and.

Speaker 5 (02:40):
Strict to them.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
So that's a good segue into today's episode, which I
am just going to go ahead and make an executive decision.
Today's episode is going to be titled Substituted Therapy with
Blake Moore. So, Blake, thank you for doing us for
your therapy session today.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
I love it because, to be fair to thee it
feels a little bit like therapy. Getting to chat. For sure,
it's cool and it might be depressing sometimes.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
And also our dad was not only mean to us,
but mean to you too, so.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, yeah, you know what's interesting about that actually is
I was like terrified of him, and but like I've
always been like aside from a couple of things. I've
always been the way I was raised in worldwide and
by my parents and just my my genetic makeup is

(03:35):
like I'm type a like rule follower, terrified of authority.
I think some of that comes from the church, but
I'm just not the test of boundaries type of kid.
So I never crossed your dad seriously and he never
really had to take my head off or anything like
I've seen him do, but I still lived under the
fear of that, you know, And I I was still

(04:00):
manipulated and abused, you know, had scripture weaponize against me.
Like so I still like it all still applies to me,
like in some respects, but no, I can't can't make
claim to the specific challenges you guys can growing up
with him, for sure.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
And I guess to address that review, you know, my
thought is that if that is the way that it
hits you, then like you probably aren't here for that.
And maybe we talked about this earlier, but maybe maybe
you're listening to the podcast for pure entertainment, and there

(04:41):
are definitely podcasts out there like that, Like I think
was I in a Cult? It does a really good
job of like lightheartedly talking about cults and high control
situations that people have found themselves in where yeah, there's
just still some difficult things that you might hear, but

(05:02):
there there is a light side to it that they
present and we just we don't really do that very much.
Like we are really pretty raw, I feel like with
you know, our experiences, and the purpose behind that is
really to provide people with full context and kind of

(05:24):
like see our full range of feelings and experiences and
maybe they see themselves in our situations and and so
that's I mean, people can listen for whatever reason they
want to, but like that's our purpose why we're doing it.
But it doesn't bother me if it's not for everyone,

(05:45):
because I never thought it would be.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
You know, it's kind of a fly on the wall
style different. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, everybody doesn't come from a cult, you know, like
this this show kind of is a connection point for
validation for people that have been in the similar situation
or maybe to pull the veil back on if there's
something dangerous that your encounter. Yeah, not just pure entertainment,
like it's it's going to resound with the intended audience.

(06:14):
It's not going through for everybody.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
And as a quick clap back to whoever this wasn't
left the review three hundred and fifty thousand downloads would
disagree with you.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
So take that both barrels, Mike.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Except they're not listening anymore because it's boring. They already listening.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, yeah, and it's mostly okay.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
Oh boy, okay. So I meant to look back and
see when was the last episode that we dropped with
to you, Blake, do you happen to know off the
top of your head.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
I want to say it was Midsummer, so June or July.
I think it was June of last.

Speaker 4 (06:59):
Year, okay, because I thought it has to be coming
up on a year, if not already a year. And
my idea from the beginning, or my thought was, it
would be cool to check in like a year later
and see where you are and kind of get a

(07:20):
snapshot of what your year has been like, because we're
all on this healing journey and a lot can happen.
A lot can happen in a week sometimes when you're
talking about healing and processing everything that we went through.
But I'm sure a lot's happened over the last year,

(07:41):
and so I thought it would be cool to have
a conversation where we talk about what you've been doing,
what you found that's helped, and maybe things that haven't helped,
Like it's all a learning process.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
That's interesting. I don't really thought about things that haven't helped. Yeah, yeah, wow,
Well the hard drugs question help.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
You know what.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
That's a good point. Definitely dabbled in the drugs. I
I thought about taking up drinking seriously and excided not
to professionally.

Speaker 5 (08:26):
Cut back on the alcohol a little bit, no joke.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
That's primarily because it affects my sleep, and sleep is
like the foundation of mental and physical health, and so
I try to drink sparingly, still really enjoy it. But
what hasn't worked? What has worked, or what has things
been like? So you want a recap of the last year.
That's a cool question because if you had had asked

(08:52):
me three months ago or six months ago, like how
much farther along I am, like healing and whatnot, I
would have given you things still suck pretty bad because
it's really it's like progress with everything, like weight losses
like this, dieting, fitness finances are like this, like they're

(09:15):
building a business, Like there's this like a lot of
little ups and downs that feels very stagnant, you know,
and then you'll see like a spike of dividends paid out.
Like I used to do personal training, you know, so
I've worked with a lot of clients, and you'll see
people like six weeks, eight weeks, they feel like they're
spending the wheels. You're frustrated, like nothing's happening. And then

(09:37):
all of a sudden, you're getting all these comments from
people that have seen you in a while. It's like
you've lost so much weight or whatever, you know, like
there's this big like you notice the result like all
at once, and almost scared to say anything positive because
how long have you been at this, Ashley, Like twenty
five years or something.

Speaker 5 (09:57):
I've been at it, like I don't know four or
five for.

Speaker 4 (10:01):
Well, just really quick, remember I avoided for years, so
I would not say that I was actively working on
healing that whole entire time. I think it kind of
went in spurts, and then I would tire out and
kind of set that down and go back to like

(10:24):
let's not think about that. Yeah, So it continuous.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
That's part of the process though, right is you can
only handle so much at a time, and the rest
of life doesn't let up, is like, right, this one
stress and difficulty dealing with processing and healing from trauma.
I mean, what else do you call it? Like? And

(10:51):
life has all of the other stresses and strains and
things that keep you busy and exhausted all of the time,
so you have to juggle and manage it all. So
like there's only so much you can take on at
any given time. Like when you ask me what hasn't worked,
I was gonna say, well, avoiding things doesn't work. But
that's only true long term because technically you've got to

(11:14):
put stuff on a shelf sometimes. Speaking of which, super
excited I just learned from a therapist like two or
three weeks ago about the containment method.

Speaker 5 (11:26):
Have you ever heard of that?

Speaker 1 (11:28):
I think it's so cool because it literally gives you
the tool to like concretize difficult emotional things within your
nervous system and you visualize it and you can put
it in a box and lock it away and avoid it.
But it's supposed to be but it's supposed to be temporary,
Like you can't avoid a long term. It's just like
to get through. But it's really really cool. But yeah,

(11:51):
I was kind of scared to say anything positive about
like I'm great now because you know, like you can
feel that.

Speaker 5 (11:59):
Way and then like.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Everything can turn around on you, like one eighty the
other way, like it is just peaks and valleys, hopefully
with like this long term upward trend. But yeah, so
a few months ago, if you had asked me, I
would have said it, everything's still pretty terrible. But I've
very very recently, so like a month or two, I

(12:25):
feel like I kind of turned this corner where I
can see a lot more light in the journey past
a lot of the darkness where there were things that
were really intense triggers for me that have disappeared, like
completely dissipated or like vastly diminished. Anyway, Yeah, I don't know,

(12:48):
we'd probably have to sort through.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
So you've mentioned the triggers. I mean, are there any
in particular that you can think of that you're comfortable sharing?
You know, you were mentioning like it kind of changed
over the last month or two. Was it just the
internal work that made that change for you? Like what
do you what were they and why do you think

(13:11):
like the switch was flipped?

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, one hundred percent it was internal work. Like just
a lot of internal work. What I was about to
say was we'd really have to rewind and just kind
of walk through like specific circumstances I think for me
to piece it all together. I wasn't really prepared for

(13:35):
such an encompassing question, like how's the last year been? Especially,
I'm not really great at big generalities, like I'm detail oriented,
very specific, but the internal work is huge. So like
bottom line is, I've been bounced between weekly and bi
weekly for the most part therapy sessions for three or

(13:59):
four I'm not exactly sure when I started, And I
know that that sucks for some people, and I'm kind
of weird that I really enjoy is probably too positive
connotation word for it, But I've really gleaned a lot
of satisfaction from understanding how things work, why, having all

(14:23):
the information behind it, And I like processing through understanding
in general, and I like talking. That being said, therapy
is painful, right, Like you end up crying plenty, and
you end up with the nervous system producing intense tension
in your neck or wherever you hold it, you know,

(14:43):
and they can leave you feeling a little wrecked physically.
So can these recording sessions. By the way, for the
one star one star review people, it's like, this isn't
just fun, like it kind of hurts, Yeah, but it's
not boring to usus, It's very for real.

Speaker 5 (15:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
So, I really I don't know how most people, especially
anyone that's been through what we've been through something that intense,
carry on with life in any sort of a healthy,
normal way without doing extensive therapy. I really don't get it,
because to me it seems absolutely fundamentally necessary. I don't
know how you avoid it.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
What do you feel like it is with therapy that
helps so much?

Speaker 1 (15:32):
I think there's a few things, Like you and I
were talking this week right about how so much of
therapy is really just being heard, the process of being
able to externalize thoughts and feeling really deep feelings that
most people don't maybe none of us are able well

(15:55):
able to fully comprehend, Like you don't understand what you're
feeling until you've been forced to get it out somehow,
Like writing can be really great for a lot of people,
but the externalizing and being heard and then being validated
and what you feel, I think is probably the biggest

(16:17):
I'm I'm no specialist, but I think it's probably the
biggest component of why it's helpful. And then having just
another lens in perspective on like for us, you guys
can probably identify with this, right you You go through
living your life in this type of situation, and so

(16:38):
much of it is just normal to you. Yeah, like
you don't know of it another way, Like we joked
for years about like, oh, everyone from the outside probably
thinks like we're in a cult, right, Like I remember
that being a joke, Like we seem kind of extreme,
but we truly believed that we had like the one

(17:01):
truth and we had it all right, and then the systems,
the toxic systems that we operated within, it was just normal,
Like we thought we were in the right situation. And
so it's not till you go through the trauma of
having to leave it and recognizing some things. But you
just recognize a few things, right, this is I don't

(17:22):
know if this is true for y'all, but it's like
you just scratch the tip of the iceberg when you
decide I've got to leave, like this isn't good anymore,
and then it's just like an avalanche after that, Like
each block that gets pulled out from the tower, you know,
it's you just learn more and more about how not

(17:46):
normal the whole situation was. So yeah, I definitely think
the externalizing the validation of being heard, but for me
it's a huge component also just to be able to
understand what it was, like what's making me feel this way?

Speaker 5 (18:04):
I'm like, why am I feeling this?

Speaker 1 (18:06):
And and then you get legitimate tools for how to
deal with difficult stuff. And that's something that makes me
a little more extreme than your average person is that
maybe I have ADHD is what my doctor's still having
it now. But I kind of hyper focus and fixate
on whatever I'm interested in, and I'm always been interested

(18:30):
in like self care and wellness kind of comes from
a fitness obsession, I think. So once I start diving
into self care and like mental health, I kind of
I go deep and I'm like, what is every possible
tool that I could be using, Like I love Andrew
Huberman's podcast, you know, and.

Speaker 5 (18:47):
Things like this.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
So I've taken up quite a lot of things at
the same time to try to get better and manage
because honestly, the the consequences of some of its personality
and nature versus nurture I don't know, but the growing

(19:11):
up in this type of religious system and then my
year spent a crusade church for sure, insane amounts of anxiety,
some depressive disorder stuff, a lot of unprocessed grief. For me,
A really huge component with grieving for a really long

(19:36):
time or do that it wasn't dealt with. That I
literally had to recognize through therapy is this type of
trauma affects some people differently, and some people get wounded deeper,
and it literally can wreck your physical health. And so

(19:56):
Sarah and I live every day with physical challenges health wise. Ashley,
I know you know what this is like too that
I mean, it impacts your life in a big way.

Speaker 5 (20:05):
And I've.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
I've just there's been a lot of emotion to deal with,
let's put it that way, a lot of stuff that.

Speaker 5 (20:15):
It just sucks, you know.

Speaker 4 (20:17):
Yeah, Well this may be partially cultural as well, but
I do think within the church context, we really don't
learn how to grieve. That was something that we talked
about with Seth in one of our last conversations with him,

(20:38):
had to do with grief and how to grieve losses.
We were speaking in the context of actually losing a
loved one, because I think it's pretty common in Christianity
to employ these grief bypassing measures. By well, they're you know,

(21:00):
we're going to see them again. They're not in pain.
Like you think of all these reasons why you shouldn't
be grieving and going through that process. But the reality
is that's going to live in your body no matter what.
Like that, you either grieve and you process it or
you're going to be dealing with the consequences of not

(21:21):
doing that, whether you realize it or not.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Definitely, yeah, definitely, And it extends beyond just grief.

Speaker 5 (21:30):
We were not.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
I don't know if I want to say aloud, but yeah,
I'll just use that for lack of a better word.
At the moment, we were not allowed to hold on
the negative emotion period.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
Well yeah, yeah, you were taught.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
To deny it like it's bad to have it.

Speaker 5 (21:48):
Is.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
The overall perception that I grew up with is that you, man,
I can't tell you, in particular de grief for struggling
with negative emotion over health challenges or yeah, some some
serious stuff there. I can't tell you how many times

(22:09):
I felt guilty and ashamed of being like failing at
being a strong enough Christian with a strong enough faith
to not have these negative emotions, Like I was screwing
up for feeling negative things. So whether it's grief or
anger or bitterness or sadness, Like being sad is not
okay because it's like you said, like things are twisted

(22:32):
out of context and you're just supposed to bypass all
that with a and it's just not the whole picture.
Like there is some validity too, I don't know, just
call it positive thinking if you want to put put
everything in a nutshell, like so and so is in

(22:53):
a better place or they're not in pain anymore, or
maybe I'm in a challenging spot today, but you know
there's somebody in a worse place, you know, Like I've
actually got a lot to be thankful for. There's there's
there's a rightness to to gleaning from things like that, Like, yes,

(23:15):
gratitude is very helpful, but that doesn't exclude like that's
just one half of it, is what it is, Like
you first you have to process and deal with the
negative thing that you feel, and it's not wrong and
it's not bad. You don't pick your emotions really, you
know you're going to experience emotions good and bad, like

(23:35):
we didn't create them. They just rise up, like we
get to choose what we deal with them. But denying them,
pretending they don't exist, or feeling guilty for having them,
is not doing any Not only is it not doing
you any good, it's doing a lot of harm.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
Yeah, and you're denying a part of yourself, so in essence,
you aren't living a full human experience. When you're doing that,
you're cutting off a piece of yourself in the bypassing,
which I think, like with therapy, that is one of

(24:12):
like what you said about therapy, having a safe space
to be heard and validated is so important that it
is also it's a place where your full range of
emotion is accepted and valued. And I think that was

(24:36):
one of the really important parts of therapy for me
and my growth, was realizing I can come into this
space with all of me, even the parts that I
think are ugly or that I think should I shouldn't have.

(24:57):
You know, I'm gonna just lay all this out and
then to have somebody see that, hear that, and not
shame you for it, but just accept you as you
are in that moment is really important, I think for
how we self actualize, you know, how we see ourselves

(25:23):
and how we process things going forward. I think that's
kind of also what you were saying about the therapeutic relationship.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Actually wasn't even thinking about that specifically, but when you
said that, just now that really I could think of
specific instances where there's something that you felt that You're
not happy that you felt like it. I don't know
if I want to say shameful per se, but there's
an element of you don't even want to say it
out loud for yourself, right, you know what I mean,

(25:54):
might admit to the fact that's what you feel. But
the freedom, the freedom of being able to do so
you're like, I don't even want to say this, but
I feel like this.

Speaker 5 (26:03):
I feel like this.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
To have someone hear that and not look at it
with any judgment or yeah, yeah, it's a big deal,
especially when it's something that when they can say honestly
back to you, of course you feel that way. Now.
The situation is terrible, so of course you feel like that.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
And yes, oh gosh, and my therapist says that exact
line all the time. You know, I will I will
say how I feel about something, and if it's something
that shame is attached to, I will oftentimes follow that
up with like, I don't know why I feel that way,
Like I I you know what I mean, I'm trying

(26:49):
desperately to understand, like where is that coming from? So
I can get rid of it, you know, And and
that really it really helps to have her say, well, well,
of course you feel that way.

Speaker 5 (27:02):
Yes, it's just.

Speaker 4 (27:03):
Like, oh, and I've realized in that relationship and that
therapeutic relationship that's kind of all I ever needed and
my whole entire life growing up. You know, anytime I'm
sure you feel the same way, both of you, like
just to have had somebody say, yeah, of course you're

(27:25):
feeling down, like this is a hard situation, and like
I do that to my kids, and every time, you know,
there's an interaction like that, I just I feel grateful
to have at least had that the last you know,
several years of my life, someone who who could like

(27:47):
provide that for me that I didn't get that before,
and so now then I can like do that with
the people that are important to me. If that makes sense. Oh, absolutely,
I mean I think it helps us. But then it
helps us be better better in our own relationships because
we want we want to give back what we've been given.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Oh, definitely, like Sarah and I have learned, I have
been learning like more and more like to do that
with each other. Yeah, just like that validation of yeah,
what you're feeling, it makes total sense, like that's okay. Yes,
And especially especially raising a lease, you know, like she's
a big feeler, Like she's feeling whatever she's feeling intensely.
And I don't know how this works. I don't know

(28:31):
what the genetic component is. And I think there are
studies now showing some element of trauma that can be
genetically expressed and passed down, Like you don't actually have
to have experienced yourself, yeah, but your parent could have
experienced it.

Speaker 5 (28:47):
So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
How those two things interact versus what your child is
learning from watching you. But like I realized very quickly
that I was way too late to the game for
perfectly fixing all of these issues so that she doesn't
learn them from us. Right, So I can see her

(29:11):
like already experiencing shame or subconsciousness that you wish like
she wouldn't. It's like, wait, a minute, Why are you
feeling that? Like, hopefully we didn't teach you to feel
that already, you know, or make you feel that. So
it's I'm definitely thankful it would be. It feels too

(29:32):
late already honestly, but it's much earlier then I'm coming
to it right, So thankful to learn some of a
lot of this now, to be able to start catching
it early with her and letting her feel what she's feeling,
you know, because that was that was something that was

(29:55):
that I think I grew up with it doesn't it's
something like a wicked or like an evil thing, but
trying to manage other people's emotions, like trying to make
everything okay, like, oh you're feeling sad. Oh, let's don't
feel sad, Like let's try and fix that. It's like
you actually need to feel it first, yes, you know,
you don't just need to stop it and like circumvent it,

(30:17):
like you need to let someone feel it.

Speaker 5 (30:20):
Yeah, did it ever?

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Uh?

Speaker 5 (30:22):
Does it happen to you?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Like I think this happens to a lot of people
just in any relationship or conversation, but or like in therapy,
if you start to cry over something or like you're
going to lose control and you apologize for it, like
I'm sorry, why do.

Speaker 5 (30:37):
We do that?

Speaker 4 (30:39):
I know I've had to learn to stop doing that
because I used to do that in therapy. And my
therapist commented the other day because I will just like
I'll literally be like, well, good morning, and I'm here
with my kleenexes, and sometimes she laughs because I'm literally
like I know I'm going to cry, so here we go.

(31:03):
But she mentioned the other day she said, you know,
you didn't cry for a long time, something to that effect, like,
you know, like I like even my body language, I'm
like trying to hold it together, and I'm trying to
be quote unquote appropriate and and so much more okay

(31:25):
with crying now and not apologizing for it and just
letting myself feel that if that's what I need to do,
And that's been so helpful because I mean, how many
times even Matt, like you know, Dad would spank us
and then it's like you weren't supposed to cry?

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, because that that was like feeling sorry for yourself,
right self business.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
That's exactly right. Yeah, that was that was the term
that was used, like we don't feel sorry for ourselves.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
So but it actually hurt like hell. So there was
that like you're literally being like harmed physically and emotionally.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
We probably all to a degree, and especially like Blake
when you were in Crusade, like you are not only
having to learn how to manage your own emotion and
what is an emotion that you can show or can't show,
but also the added wrinkle of like managing the other person.
And in this case, usually it was Dad because that

(32:34):
was kind of the volatile personality there in the mix.
There there were some others, but that was the big
one where you're managing your own but also trying to
gauge that and manage that person. So it's like you're
always on guard internally and externally, which I think once
you're out of that, it's almost like for me like

(32:54):
glad to be out of it, but like, well what
do I do with myself now? Like how do I
occupy my mind? Which I still struggle with. I'm not going
to get on like a whole side thing, but maybe
we can talk about this part later. But I even
I'm getting better about it now, but like having to
have music or TV or something like going on all
the time, as a distraction. And I've told Liz before,

(33:16):
like music in the car when I'm driving, or a
pot something to occupy my mind, because times when I haven't,
you know, twenty minute drive, I'll bend myself completely out
of shape thinking about something that happened ten years ago
or whatever. So it's like I am learning how to
manage that. But I think that's part of it too

(33:37):
that maybe I don't know that we've talked about, but
it's just weird.

Speaker 5 (33:40):
I'm glad you brought that up.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
That's that's a really good point because that's a specific
highlight in my healing journey or whatever is needing to distract,
Like especially when if I was working out in the
field a lot in the past cutting grass and that
type of thing. I've got all day long, like with
nothing to do but think or listen to something. And

(34:05):
I definitely spend a lot of time, well my whole
life really, but especially the past few years, distracting myself
from not thinking. By I would burn out on music
pretty quick throughout the course of a day if I
could do it all day long. So podcasts like I
would be learning something like I would binge a few

(34:29):
different podcasts and just all day long, I had to
have something. And then I remember a couple of years
ago and a point I was going to make earlier.
This ties together. I was starting to I was describing
a lot of the difficult stuff that the results are
of the trauma of living in a cult and exiting it,

(34:55):
extreme anxiety and depressive stuff, just some some real issues
to and I was talking about how I'll hyper focus
and kind of deep dive on Okay, what is every
self care thing I could possibly do? So part of
my problem is is I've tried, you know, a dozen
plus different things and a lot of them all at
the same time, so I can't always pinpoint exactly working.

Speaker 5 (35:19):
And what helps.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Something is helping a little bit right now, I'm not
sure what it is. But so the point of that
connection connecting with distraction and music or podcasts information in
general is I've tried a handful of different supplements like
to try to manage anxiety and stress response and some

(35:40):
of the stuff, and I was I went through a
period of time. I remember bringing this up in therapy.
I was like, I haven't wanted to listen to anything
while I was working for like a month. Now, like
I preferred the silence, and they were like, oh, maybe
you're finally you know, calming down inside, like you're you've

(36:04):
got less. I can't remember exactly what she said, Like
there was I was becoming more comfortable with like a
peace and a stillness that before was well, it's not
existent really, because it's like you're saying, uh, Maddie, there
if you don't have something distracting you, like my mind

(36:27):
is just running NonStop like ramp. And it might not
be it might not be about anything terrible, or it
might be it's she's gonna be something anxiety provoking, but
it's it's it's exhausting, is what it is.

Speaker 4 (36:40):
Like.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's sometimes it's stuff that you just don't want to
deal with, you don't want to be alone with your thoughts,
or sometimes it's just too many thoughts in general. And
so it was a really bizarre experience for me for
the first time in my life to realize there's an
attractiveness to stillness and quiet that I'd never known before.

(37:02):
And I think that was a result of some supplements
I was trying, because it hasn't been totally permanent. How
was this for you, Maddie, Like it is it still
that way you're you said you're getting better at it.
You are you kind of up and down with it.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Yeah, I think probably like you described earlier, like the
peaks and the valleys, but I feel like it's on
an upward trend where I can I can do that
more consistently, where I don't have to have something and
even I mean even a step for me, which is
kind of sad, but like I've got a whole lot
some of these back here, like a whole bunch of books.

(37:40):
Liz got me a whole bunch of books for Christmas
and my birthday because I wanted books, and I even
had on my little like New Year's resolution thing like
I want to read a book a month. Well I
didn't crack one open.

Speaker 5 (37:53):
Until this week. It's March.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
But even that, like there, it's easier for me to
be get in my head when I'm reading a book
in the quiet than it is if there's music or
a show, so I've avoided that, I think for that reason.
So now like I crack the book open, like I'm

(38:15):
I'm able, and I'm making conscious effort to to not
have noise or something distracting like in the background on
so it is getting better, and I know at least
I am able to. Obviously I know that that's a

(38:36):
problem for me, which I guess is the first step
to say this isn't healthy. I'm not dealing with some
of this like I need to. I'm just avoiding it,
and that's not gonna be good. I'm not going to
get better at dealing with it by avoiding it forever.
Like you said that for a time, maybe you can
put it in a box. You can't do that forever.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
So if if something pops up that's like not something
that you would would be something that you would not
want to have to think about, how do you deal
with that now, Like something really unpleasant comes up in
your mind during those times and then what.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
Like during the quiet times. Yeah, that's a good question.
I don't know specifically how I would describe what I do.

Speaker 5 (39:19):
I think.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
Just generally I've tried to with a lot of this stuff,
including like with how we're doing the podcast. It's just
like instead of trying to find like a place to hide,
it's just like turning towards it, like almost like getting
in its face where it's like okay, like let's do it.
Then like let's talk about it kind of thing, and
so like let myself do that and know that if

(39:49):
I let it, it will have an effect on me
that I don't want. And I guess what I mean
by that is, you know, like if I drive in
the car and don't have anything on, like when my
mind is wandering, that's when I feel like I have
the trouble where I'll get triggered by whatever and get
to thinking. But when I know, I guess, like when

(40:12):
i'm fight ready, when I know it's time, yeah, it's
easier for me to just like, okay, let's do it. Then,
if that makes sense, it's probably.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
You would probably really like the containment method if you
checked it out, because what's really cool is it gives
you the option. To me, the hard part is finding
the time where you just have well it's harder if
you have kids that the time available where it's a
good moment to deal with something difficult. Because what's cool

(40:41):
about the containment method is like it can come up
and you could. It really gives you this handle to
leverage on, like wait a minute, I'm going to put
this thing in this box and then then I don't
have to think about it. Right now, and you get
the break from that, and then you get to pick
the moment when it's like, Okay, I'm going to open
this up and I'm going to look at it, like
you said, when you're fight ready and go. Because like

(41:03):
what therapists teach with this is like tie it to
self care. So a lot of girls like hot baths,
so that's what they recommend. But like you do a
bath time routine where you've got your wine or whatever.
This is not what I do because I've only tried
this actually like three times, so i still feel like
I'm trying to get I got the containment part great,
but I'm still feel like I'm exploring what it is

(41:26):
to open it back up and find the moment to
really really deal with it. But in general, just the
day to day, I know you wanted to talk about this, Ashley,
I'm on a I feel like I said, I do
too many things at once, so I never know exactly
what is what's the best producer of I could the

(41:52):
best results, what's coming from. But I'm on a thirty
eight thirty nine day streak of meditating for the first
time ever ten minutes a day, first thing in the morning,
and I absolutely love it because and this goes hand
in hand with the distraction and the stillness. I've had
a historically impossible and possibly hard time being able to

(42:14):
do that, Like tell me to sit still and try
not to think like it it's never worked for me.
Finally found an app that helped. It was like they
had a seven day course that kind of walked you
into it easily, and I was just blown away and
how much easier it was. But I think, like you
asked me to begin with, it is just like a

(42:35):
turning of a corner all of a sudden, like you
put in a lot of work and then now it's
kind of working, like now you see some result. So
for me, I feel like that has It's that plus
the therapy and the inner work, right, It's that plus
the practice over time of leaning into like you were

(42:59):
just saying, Maddie, like whatever this thing is, like whatever
you're feeling in the moment, turning towards it and leaning
into it instead of distracting or avoiding it or shoving
it down somewhere that just makes it worse. And it
blows my mind. This concept of radical acceptance, if you
guys have heard of that where you just look at

(43:22):
what it is, no matter how terrible it is, and
you accept it for what it is, because I have
this instinct to fight it and want to change it,
like I just and maybe it's a normal human instinct,
or maybe we're especially ingrained with this and the environment

(43:42):
we're coming from here.

Speaker 5 (43:44):
But the.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Resistance to feeling anything negative or bad, like it's just
not okay, it's huge, So I resist it and fight it,
and I try to change it naturally. But the shift
that happens when you turn towards it and let yourself
feel it and just accept it. Or that's talking about

(44:09):
a feeling, but call it a bad situation, like maybe
your health is completely wrecked because of this and you
thought really really hard to try to change that, and
that doesn't work. It makes it worse. Look at it
and accept it, like I haven't changed it. Maybe I
can't do anything about it. Maybe you know you've forever sorry,

(44:29):
this is deep and roughly you forever lost a relationship
with your father. You know you never are going to
have what you wished you would have had, or or
name the circumstance that somebody is going through with all this,
accept it, Yeah, and that practice of doing that coupled
with for a long time. I'm serious this. I feel

(44:53):
like this takes a few years before you even come close,
because I would never venture to say right now that like,
oh I've got this, I'm good at it. I would
not say that, but I can notice progress that having
practiced for a few years this concept and now coupled
with meditation. Because I don't know how how much this

(45:14):
resonates with every person, but being very anxious and depressed
and pretty easily what's the catastrophizing right when things are
like not feeling good and it feels like the whole
world is caving in on you. That happens to me

(45:35):
pretty easily naturally. So this concept of leaning into things,
accepting them and meditating, I feel like I have this
new found ability to I almost view it like stepping
back away from my well. I think meditation gives you disability, right,
You become a deserver, a spectator of your thoughts, like

(45:57):
you don't identify so closely with them as if they
are you, right, you view them as like these clouds
that are passing by, or these waves that you can
choose to ride or not. And that ability man it's
just been huge to me. And again, I only feel
like I'm maybe twenty percent good at it out of
one hundred. Okay, do you feel like.

Speaker 4 (46:18):
You do this now outside of meditation, because I feel
like I started it in meditation and now it is
really almost like something that I automatically do, especially if
it's something that's really difficult that's happening. I literally kind

(46:39):
of almost I'm like just observing it almost out of
body sometimes and I'm just like, Okay, this is happening
right now, and it is that acceptance of it, and
it's like, Okay, this is what this is what's going on,
and this is what I'm dealing with as opposed to panicking.

(47:00):
Not saying I'm doing this perfectly, I'm just saying that
happens more and more and more where I can take
that aspect of meditation into like real life.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Definitely, And I think it's a combination of the two principles,
the meditating and turning towards difficult things like allowing yourself
to experience them. To me, like it's both that go
hand in hand. But it does feel like throughout the
day higher ability, Like I wouldn't call it automatic yet

(47:37):
but definite progress, Like it's a it's like an ability
that never used to exist before that I can remember more,
more and more quickly to utilize. It's like, wait a minute,
step back, and then just be okay with being still
and quiet and observing.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
And you're not getting fully encompassed by whatever feeling that
is or whatever circumstance you're in. It's not overtaking your
whole mind and body and everything about you. It's more
of a you can almost objectively view it, right.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Yes, yeah you can. And then for me, it gives
this perspective in the moment and across time that I
can look back and say, yeah, there's this situation and
it makes me want to feel like this. It feels bad,
but everything is not bad because yesterday there was a

(48:35):
different situation and everything was feeling pretty good, right, So
why all of a sudden that seems like that never
happened or that's never going to happen again. And then
I can look back as like, the last time a
situation like this came up, it felt like the world
was ending, but it didn't. Everything was over great. It
just gives this greater perspective, like a bigger picture perspective,

(48:59):
which is we're helpful.

Speaker 4 (49:01):
Yeah, I agree, And it reminds me of what doctor
Laura Anderson said, like the sun rises still every day,
Like I actually do remind myself of that. And I
almost feel like with the meditation I have to it
does give you that almost outside perspective where it's like,
these things happen and then they end or they pass

(49:24):
or whatever it is, and then there's a new day
and there are new situations.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
I'll tell myself it's going to feel different, yeah, a
little bit, yes, Like maybe not today, maybe tomorrow, maybe,
but it's going to feel different, right. I heard a
really cool quote Kevin O'Leary. I'm a big Shark Tank fan.
So he's a tycoon shark investor on there, and he

(49:51):
was somebody interviewed him and he was talking about he
deals with so many different businesses and entrepreneurs and so
he gets a lot of calls and some days like
everything is going fantastic and everybody's making a ton of money,
or there's this huge problem and you're losing a ton
of money, or it could be total disaster. And he said,
I've learned over time the only difference between feeling fantastic

(50:16):
and feeling terrible is just a little bit of time.
So it's like if you just step back and wait
for a minute, this thing will pass and then you'll
be feeling great again.

Speaker 5 (50:25):
So you just kind of have to wait for a sec.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
Yeah, yeah, I do think that's one thing that meditation
teaches to me that's been the most invaluable tool for healing.
And I think obviously, like you said, so many modalities
work better together when they're alongside each other, and so

(50:52):
you get a greater there's greater impact to you. But yeah,
the therapy, therapeutic relationship and then the meditation, the two
of those things, like I would not want to do without.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
I definitely agree, And I don't like coming across like
giving advice. I'm no expert on any of this, but
some of it it's hard for me to extract, to
separate because I've done it for so long. But I
know a lot of people don't, So I would mention
that I don't think I would survive without exercise, Like

(51:30):
I notice a huge difference in my mental state if
I don't do it, Like I'm kind of addicted is
the wrong words. It's like a medicine I have to
take like I didn't start exercising for that reason fifteen
twenty years ago. Yeah, twenty years ago. I you know,

(51:55):
your standard self conscious insecurities and vanity issues for it.
But the past five years or so I have realized
all that could go away, like strictly the mental health
benefit of moving well, yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:15):
Like move your body, change your mind definitely, And that's
that's real. I agree with that. Exercise has been an
important outlet for me and way of processing even before
you know, I ever started therapy. I think it was
something I gravitated towards as a healing modality without really

(52:39):
understanding that's what I was doing, you know. But I
do feel like meditation is just a different level. It's
more like a conscious like understanding of like I am
not my thoughts, Yeah, I'm not.

Speaker 5 (52:57):
A difference.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Exercise is like a physical lever you can pull to
have an effect on like your chemistry within your body,
and then meditation is like a mental lever slash emotional.
I guess that you can pull to have an effect
on how things are feeling. It's probably how I would
look at it.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
Yeah, yesterday was it yesterday? Yeah? It was? I woke
up and I just felt in a funk. I mean,
I can't even explain why. There wasn't anything specific. They're
just you know, there there are stresses, there are things
I'm worried about, and a lot going on, and I

(53:37):
have felt a lot of overwhelm lately, and I felt
that lump in my throat and I'm just like, am
I going to cry? I like can't even identify the
actual thing that I would be crying about, but just
like in general, you know, I just wasn't there and

(53:59):
I I was thinking about all the things that I've
got to do and I've got to get done, and
I literally just like stop myself and I was like, okay,
like Ashley, what do you need right now?

Speaker 1 (54:12):
You know?

Speaker 4 (54:12):
Which is something that I try to do that I
feel like we were never taught another thing because you
don't think about yourself and your own needs. And the
first thing was meditation. I was gonna skip because I
had a bunch to do, and I was like, I'm

(54:32):
I'm gonna do this, like I'm going to do this
and then you know, my future self today will thank
me for it. And it really did like reset my
mind by doing that. I don't know if it's part
of that is just like the self love, you know,

(54:53):
but it's healing. Just to me, it's like such a
gift because you don't need any tools for it, you know,
you can literally do that anywhere, and so I just
I think it's super special.

Speaker 5 (55:14):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
I'm glad that you said that about waking up in
the funk because I still I think that happens to
me half of the days. Like in my life. Still,
it's like there are some days it's like I don't
know exactly what's wrong, but I feel wrong.

Speaker 5 (55:31):
I have been out of shape.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, and that's something that and like it's almost ugh,
it's almost like you really can't It feels like you
can't do this exclusively or everybody can't do it.

Speaker 5 (55:46):
Maybe that's not true.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
It feels like it's impossible as a all the time,
long term sort of thing. But slowing down so you're
not so overwhelmed feels really important to me. And again
it's like I don't know, it's tough, like when you
run your own business and you have a kid, and
like it just it seems like there's always way too

(56:10):
many things to do. And so I'm really trying to
be intentional about, like you just said, paying attention to
what you need like we weren't taught, was okay. But
stepping back and realizing, like, yeah, maybe it would be
better for business if I were like hustling all day
every day, and I would be building a bigger, more

(56:32):
successful company faster. But that doesn't feel okay for me
for what I can deal with mentally and stress wise.
While because you've got different margins based on the load
that you're carrying, right, Yeah, and there's other stuff at
different times to carry. And shoot, there's the past several years, it's.

Speaker 5 (56:52):
Felt pretty heavy.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
So I've tried, Man, this is a balancing act, but
try to be more intentional about slowing down the amount
of demands I let get imposed on me in order
to not be waking up feeling that overwhelmed every day.
And maybe I'm half successful in it, maybe a little less,

(57:15):
but it's better than not trying it all. I guess
it does help.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
Yeah, And the cool thing about meditation is you can
do a five minute if that's all you've got, and
then I think that sets you up better for the
whole rest of the day. You know. I hate to
sound like it's like, you know, the magic pill, but

(57:39):
it really does help. So like when you're you know,
you're building your business and you're talking about hustling and
all these things, you might not have time when you
wake up in a fonk for a forty five minute
workout right then, but you probably have five minutes or
ten minutes to sit in silence and like give that

(58:00):
to yourself, like give that to your nervous system, and
you're going to be probably more productive after that or
a better person to be around, you know, for your
employees and whatever else you're doing.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
Yeah, definitely, you just made me realize I haven't tried
it longer than thirteen minutes yet, and now I like,
I want to know what it would feel like to
do forty five minutes, you know, Chopra.

Speaker 4 (58:28):
Well, there's actually there is research that supports thirty minute
and there's resource resources or sorry, there's research that supports
meditation just you know period, but there is something that
happens at the thirty minute mark. I need to look
up that that research. But there are measurable health benefits

(58:54):
to that. So I always try to aim for thirty.
If I don't have it, I do what I have.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
You know, I think one of the reasons I've been
successful with it is because I was aware of the
research that shows tremendous benefit just from doing five or
ten minutes, and so I went into it with like,
if I get five or ten minutes, like I did it,
and so that's all I've done. But now that I'm
kind of hooked. Now that I'm kind of hooked, I
totally would bite off more for like thirty on days

(59:22):
that I have time the weekend for sure.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Oh yeah, do you think it's do you think it's
kind of like I mean, the way i've this is
probably not the healthiest way, but the way I viewed
a lot of things like exercise, even if it's like
going for a walk or doing a little tiny set
with free weights or whatever, it is like doing it

(59:48):
for ten minutes is ten minutes more than I had
been doing it kind of a point of view where
it's like you'd say, like it's not very much like, well,
it's more than I was because I was doing doing
zero percent.

Speaker 5 (01:00:01):
So now I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Doing something every day that is building towards being better,
feeling better, like whatever it is. Do you kind of
kind of view it that way because it sounded like
if you start off with the benchmark being like five
minutes is a good start, Like that sounds like something
anybody you know what do.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
That totally works though, Like there's tremendous benefit to that.
I have two examples that, Like, I love Jordan Peterson
and that's one of the things that he's preached his
clients forever, is like, Oh, you have this huge problem
in your life that you can't even look at her face,
Like it's this dragon that you can't deal with. He
was like, it's a stack of papers, Like you're not

(01:00:42):
on top of your finances for ten years. He was like,
make a deal with yourself that you'll walk downstairs today
and look at the stack of papers for thirty seconds.

Speaker 5 (01:00:50):
You can do that, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
It's like and once you've done that, like you've removed
some of this mental obstacle of like, oh, I can't
do anything. And the next time, the deal with yourself
is that you'll pick up a few of them and
spend three minutes sorting a couple things into different stacks, right,
And it's like you do that across time. And I
think it was Peter a Tea the MD who wrote.

Speaker 5 (01:01:14):
Outlived was his book, right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
I think it was him on a podcast talking about
someone a friend of his that made like tremendous long
term success, which is rare with losing like two hundred
pounds or something. It wasn't like a quick lose it
all and then gain it back. And he said he
made this contract with himself. For the first thirty days,
all he was going to do was show up at

(01:01:37):
the gym, walk in and I think, step on the
treadmill for like sixty seconds, and get off and leave.
And he wouldn't let himself do anything else. And like
he taught his brain, I can show up on a
habit and do this and like it's not bad. And
once he had that down then it was no big
deal to add stuff on top of it. It's like

(01:01:58):
you didn't do anything for sixty second. It's like it
was no benefit. It was strictly I conquered my brains,
you know, roadblocks to like I can't do this, this is
going to be hard or whatever. It's like you built
a pathway, a neuropathway, that you can then follow and
build upon. So maybe that's the deal with meditation. I
don't think, Yeah, there's no way I would have gotten

(01:02:20):
into it if I had to be thirty minutes a day.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
Do you think that through a lot of this kind
of internal work, not just the you know, meditation, with
the therapy and what you're doing in the time in between. Like,
maybe this is too broad of a question. I don't
even know exactly how to ask it, But have you
found kind of glimpses maybe into what your natural disposition

(01:02:50):
would be just about life versus maybe what your nurture
position has been. Does that make sense? Kind of like
what you've been taught versus maybe what you're just naturally would.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
Do and how you would know it makes a lot
of sense. And it's a question I've really wrestled with
for a long time because that was one of like
I feel like it was first handful of sessions. It
was probably four years ago, early on. The first therapist
I ever met with like asked me, like who are you?

(01:03:24):
And you can't answer with a role, So you can't
answer with a business owner, husband, father, what you do
for work? None of these things are valid answers. And
I still have absolutely no idea i'd answer that question.
I don't know, Like if you stripped the roles as
an answer, I'm like, I don't know, but and so

(01:03:45):
in addition to that, there's this, yeah, directly to your question,
I've wondered, like, what are my inherent personality traits that
weren't trained into you or picked up on by learning
or whatever. And I don't think I would have very
much success at figuring anything like that out without a lease,

(01:04:10):
because I can see so many things in her that's
like a copycat version of me, and I can be like,
wait a minute, she's untouched, mostly because, like I said,
there's still just science and research questioning, like the genetic
passing things down like trauma. So I still don't know

(01:04:33):
what effect I can have, but I can see things
like being really talkative, right, or really inquisitive or wanting
or like this bent towards critical thinking and curiosity and
trying to figure out a better way to do something
like I can see certain traits in her and like

(01:04:54):
ways of functioning mentally. I'm like, that's just like me,
and that's probably something that it's inherent to me before
the world touches you, right, like just the way you
you come into it. So I feel very limited progress
on discovering what do you true self? You know, to

(01:05:15):
sound cliche, h.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
Do you feel like you get close to that in meditation?

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Though I don't think I'm very yet. I think in meditation,
like I said, it's a thirty eight thirty nine day
street now yeah, yeah, I what I've got And I
don't say handle on like mastered, but what I've what
I've touched in meditation is an ability to detach from

(01:05:41):
thoughts some and slow down and be present. But that
hasn't sunk to a level of who am I? Like
that you mentioned there's is it deep hawk, deepop something,
chakra chakra, the three the three questions.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
For for sole questions.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
Let's like some handsome no, the our sole questions.

Speaker 5 (01:06:18):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
I don't ask myself those. It's intimidating to me.

Speaker 4 (01:06:24):
Well, he always says, like when you say who am I,
he'll say, will step into the presence of being and
that's who you are as in basically what you've been saying,
the conscious observer, the one that was I'm making it
sound like we have different personalities and that's not what

(01:06:44):
I mean. But the essence of you, like you just
said before the world and doctor NATed you or your
parents or whatever with beliefs and thoughts and opinions and
all of that. It's that part of you is still present.

(01:07:06):
That's that's how I answer that question for myself. It
doesn't mean I'm always in touch with that, but I
also I also like the practice of asking the question
without even trying to give it an answer. And that's

(01:07:27):
the whole point of like the four Soul questions, is
you just ask. It's like you're asking the question and
you're not trying to come up with an answer. If
something does pop into your head, great, but if it doesn't,
it doesn't. But it's something about like getting you kind
of getting your subconscious like your wheels turning, if that

(01:07:47):
makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
It does some, Yeah, it does some, but yeah, that
one's still new for me. I uh, I think some
stuff like that is a lot harder than more of
an overthinker you are. Yeah, because that's how the what
I thought was so cool. How the containment method works

(01:08:12):
is you're supposed to ask your nervous system, like your brain,
give me a visual object that encompasses this cult experience
and all of this y trauma or whatever the situation is,
and then for an overthinker, your immediate response is, well,

(01:08:33):
why did I see a ship? You know, like what
the ship can't be right, Like that's not the right thing.
I just made that up. And then the answer is
that you couldn't have just made it up like it
did what you wanted it to do, like it produced something.
It's you overthinking and questioning it that kind of ruins that,
and so you just have to accept what appears. Yeah,

(01:08:53):
So I think that's that's like a cool concept that
I think I've just recently but kind of been starting
to learn as like well, the fact that there's something
there like if an answer does pop up if you
just ask, then you didn't just produce it or make

(01:09:14):
it up like it's it. I don't know, this is
starting to sound weird, right, but like it just materialized,
Like what are we dealing with here? But there's something
to that that you you can really easily just like
kind of walk all over with overthinking and kind of
trash it. But there's there's an ability there you kind

(01:09:38):
of have to learn how to accept. I guess, yeah,
that sounds dumb.

Speaker 4 (01:09:43):
I don't know, it doesn't. It doesn't. Does your therapist
ever ask you, like, does she do body scans? Just
kind of like what are you feeling right now? Like
if you're talking about something that it's difficult, does she
ask you if you feel that somewhere in your body?

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
So you know, I meet with Naomi, and there's with
her organization, like it's across state lines and it can't
technically be therapy, so there's like limits through the type
of therapy that I do now. A lot of what
I do now is just like standard cognitive behavioral like
talking out type stuff. But the therapist I met with

(01:10:26):
in Arkansas we did that a lot. So we did EMDR,
which was really cool and I responded really well to.
And then we did body scans almost at the end
of every session, and I was kind of blown away
at how being walked through that helps, like how relaxing
that is. And I'm hyper aware most of the time

(01:10:46):
of what's going on with what I'm feeling emotionally and physically.
That's something else I see in a lease is there's
just this tremendous awareness of this party part feels like
this or this is hurting or whatever. So I'm very
aware of like where I'm carrying tension and these sorts
of things. Oh, and that's another thing I do really

(01:11:08):
regularly that's similar but different yoga nider or non sleep
deep Reastuh So that involves I don't know if it's
technically a body scan, but it's very similar to a
body scan where you've just deliberately focused your attentionion only
through each part of your body. Yeah, that's given me

(01:11:29):
a much I've been doing that for a few years.
That's given me a much greater ability to like stop
and relax and reset a little bit. Just conscious relaxation
is pretty difficult, but feels way way way easier now.

Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
Well, when you were talking about the containment method, I
was thinking about how you know, sometimes when I'm talking
about something difficult, my therapist will say, where do you
Let's stop for a second, like do you feel that
anywhere in your body? And it's interesting because that isn't
something that I had really ever thought of before that,

(01:12:11):
And now we do that often, and so I'm much
more in tune with where I'm feeling different stresses. And
it's interesting how you know one will be like, well,
actually that's like in my throat, or this one's in
my stomach, or this isn't my heart center? And then
she will always ask me like what does it look like?

(01:12:32):
Does it have a shape? Does it have a color?
Those kinds of things like you just said with like
the boat, you thought of a boat, you know, or
a ship. And I find that to be like a
really interesting thing too, because sometimes it does have a
shape or a color. And then I'm visualizing it in

(01:12:57):
a contained way, going back to the containment method, and
and it is a little bit like probably not exactly
the containment method, but it's almost like I can look
at that and visualize that object that is holding that
emotion and those experiences. And when I'm done talking about

(01:13:21):
that in session and I need to go do something else.
In a sense, I am putting that on a shelf
and saying I'm coming back. Yeah, but it is, you know,
it's a temporary holding space. That's the big part of
the containment method is like this is not meant to
stay like filed away in a vault. To know, like

(01:13:43):
you got to go back and and get it off
the shelf and deal with it. You know what's next?

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Boys, Oh sorry, I've been meditating this entire.

Speaker 4 (01:13:55):
Time about Matt. Is like I am the I Am
the all knowing Consciousness, one consciousness over here.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
If you liked this episode, please go leave us a
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