Ep.59: "Boring-Ass Racist White Church"

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In Ep. 59: "Boring-Ass Racist White Church," we’re joined by actor, writer, and podcast host LaNisa Renee Frederick for a bold and unfiltered conversation about her upbringing in the Worldwide Church of God—a high-control religious movement masquerading as Christianity. LaNisa shares what it was like growing up in what she unapologetically calls a “boring-ass racist white church,” and how those experiences shaped her identity, her faith, and her voice as a creator.

We also talk about her latest project, Black & CULTivated—a podcast centering the stories of Black and Brown cult survivors, bringing much-needed representation to the conversation around spiritual abuse and religious trauma. With honesty, humor, and sharp insight, LaNisa breaks down the intersections of race, control, and healing.

 Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories! 

#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow. The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's
w Armstrong and.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
He's speaking through.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Me the Lord.

Speaker 4 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're coming to the Lord and if you.

Speaker 4 (00:29):
Can take it, beyond the veil is the chamber.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
The Lord told me that. But from then on, visions
begin to come. When this comes up on me, it
produces the vision.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
I'm able to tell people what's wrong with them, what
they must do in life, and the sins that they
are holding back in their life.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Coltoning Store podcast.
Mattie here as always, joined by my sister Ashley Teeter.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Before we get started.

Speaker 4 (01:01):
Want to remind you again follow us on our socials, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
We also have that new way to connect with us.
You can leave us a voice message with a question
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So you can find the link on our Instagram bio
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can follow that link, click record and send us voice message.

(01:22):
We want to hear from you now. I'll do our
Double Portion Club shoutouts Shanda and Chase, Heather Bartlett and Carla.
Thank you all so much for being in our Double
Portion Club. If you want to be in that club
with these fine folks, it's ten dollars a month to
get AD free episodes and a shout out and a
cool sticker. Or you can go for a five dollars
a month to just support the work and you'll get

(01:43):
AD free episodes and the sticker. Just no shout out
with that one. Going to do a quick rating and
review read This is from Brandy doo Dah in the
United States. It says canceling out mister one stars review
which I love this so much. Thank you already, Brandy.
I love you guys. I've never been in a cult.
I've only been to a church service a handful of

(02:05):
times in my life, and I'm fifty two lucky. But
the empathy I have for your family and guests on
the show can't be understated. I'm thrilled you found your
way out. Thank you covid. Yes, agreed, and so impressed
that you are sharing your story in order to help others.
I have learned a great deal while falling in love
with all of you. This podcast is very well done

(02:26):
and much appreciated. Keep on keeping on you, guys. I'm
one hundred rooting for your success. Mister one star can
go jump in the lake of fire. Oh that's a
great ending, and I do wonder too, for those who
are listening, is lake of fire just a worldwide centric term?

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Or did you guys mostly call it hell? Was like
a fire? A thing?

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Like?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Please let us know? I genuinely want to know.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
I was asking my wife Liz maybe yesterday, like was
that a thing in your upbringing? You said, yeah, a
little bit, but almost exclusively, like ninety plus percent it
was like hell. So I wondered, like this lake a
fire just a thing that we had founded and does
as a kid.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
I don't know, let's find out.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I don't think we ever, I don't think we ever
called it hell.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah it was.

Speaker 4 (03:17):
It was lake a fire, which is kind of interesting
when you actually break it down.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Lake of fire, Yes, all my prayers, Please spare me
from the Lake of fire.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
Yeah, now pivoting from Lake a fire. Ashley is going
to introduce our guest for today. We had a really
wonderful guest. Actually, we want to tell us a little
bit about her.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yes, this was just so enjoyable. I cannot overstate that.
So we had Lenisa renee Frederick. She is an award
winning actor, writer, and content creator whose work spans TV, animation,
and viral social media. You've seen her on a Black
Lady Sketch show, Brooklyn ninety nine and Young Sheldon, and

(04:01):
you've heard her voice and everything from Nickelodeon's Baby Shark
to Call of Duty. Lenisa is also the co creator
of the hit sketch series hashtag Booked and host of
the podcast Black and Cultivated, where she dives deep into
the experiences of black and brown cult survivors. This conversation
was hilarious but also really real, authentic and powerful, and

(04:26):
I can't wait for you guys to listen to it
all right. Today's guest is an award winning actor, writer,
content creator, and voiceover artists based in Los Angeles, and
she is the host of the brand new comedy podcast
Black and cultivated Linisa Rene Frederick. Welcome to the Cult
next Door podcast.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
What upp What a Do? Hello?

Speaker 3 (04:48):
Hey, So we discovered you because you commented on one
of our reels and you said something to the effect
of like, oh crap, this is the cult I grew
up in. So I immediately clicked on you and then
saw that you were starting a podcast and we talked

(05:10):
about it, and I'm like, we have to get this
woman on the podcast. I don't think we've met anyone
else who grew up in the Worldwide Church of God.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
You know that isn't in our direct sphere.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Oh yeah, yeah, oh wow.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
So everyone that you've talked to has been because I
was looking up your stuff. So, but they've been directly
a part of either Worldwide, our Splinter or the other crusade. Right,
is that correct? Right?

Speaker 5 (05:37):
Right?

Speaker 3 (05:38):
So I actually grew up in Worldwide because I think
you and I are closer in age. Maddie is much younger,
and so.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
That's right, we don't.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
But but yeah, he mostly experienced our dad's cult. But
that was based on you know, Herbert Armstrong's ideologies.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Okay, I got it. Oh that's wild. Okay, yeah, Well
it was actually interesting and when I was doing my
things to talk to other folks in other churches around
the country, Like I interview a lady and that's in Texas.
I interview a guy that's in Florida. So honestly it
was kind of helpful and reaffirming. I'm like, I'm not crazy, right,

(06:21):
that was some crazy dude, right, okay, right, I think
that's the beauty of it. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yay.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about
your upbringing in the world Wide Church of God.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, so I was born in it, raised in it, uh,
and we're White Church of God in Cincinnati, Ohio. And
growing up I think it was Oh, do you have
an aha moment?

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Do you know Carl Byersdorfer?

Speaker 1 (06:53):
I know the Bias Dwarf. I remember growing up with him,
but I don't recall, like you say that name. I'm like, oh,
that was one of our minutes.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yes, because that okay, so my ex husband that's his
father who was a longtime minister in the world Wide
Church of God and was in Cincinnati.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, at one point you would have been little probably
I don't remember the kids, but I know, mister, I
remember that name, like you said it, I'm like, yeah,
for more ministers. They switched out so much that yeah,
you get because my Boyfer was just asking about that
and I was like, we switched out if I recall

(07:30):
ministers like every three years. So I think Headquarters played,
you know, ring around the rosie and was like, all right,
you go here, you go here, you go here. Wow
small Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
And and we haven't actually talked about that, but that
is an interesting point that they did switch out ministry
a lot. And I always thought it was someone had
told me at one point they don't want the minister
to get too many close time eyes with the people,
so that the people wouldn't want to follow that person

(08:04):
if they ended up leaving or something, and so they
were like always.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Switching it up. That's what I was told when I
was a kid. So I have no idea. That totally
makes sense, but I have no idea. Oh that's not anyway.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yeah, as many, with as many offshoots as they were
with worldwide, I wonder if they learned that the hard way.
They're like, you know what, we're going to switch these
out every so often because we don't want that.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Again, there's like what three offshoots a while who knows, yeah, with.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
Vary any degrees of weirdness, you know, I know, it's
all over the spectrum.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
It is so Yes. I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio,
where my church got there, and I have to say
that my experience, I feel, was very different from what
a lot of folks that I heard as well. Our
congregation was I'm going to say sixty seventy percent black,
and as a result, that made a difference. Now, what

(09:04):
I did find different was like when we went to
feast or if we visited another church, my kid brain
would always be like, like, howcounners, it's not as diverse
in here, this is weird? Or why do I feel
weird coming in? Like it's still the same church? Aren't
we all the same? So I always remember feeling that,
but not as a kid understanding how to put you know,

(09:27):
how to articulate exactly what was going on. But I
do think as a result of our church, our congregation
being so heavily black, that I didn't we were still
taken care of by the families and by the parents
in the church. I didn't understand some of the harmful
theology and doctrine until later, but we would witness things.

(09:50):
He'd be like, well, why can't he be a leader
just because he's black? Or there was something huge like, uh,
you know, like oh, why can't they date because there
are different races, so things that the kids are kind
of like, that's weird. I don't understand. And then honestly,
it wasn't until I became an adult and did like

(10:11):
a deep dive when I was like twenty, and was like,
what did we what was that that I started coming
up upon like more of his doctrine and understanding what
was going on? Uh in the church because it it is,
it's a weird it's a weird situation. Like in my congregation,

(10:32):
we had fun, we explept and other you know, we
had sleepovers at each other's houses. That doesn't sound like
quote unquote a cult because you're having fun and it's
just you know whatever. We all celebrate the Sabbath. But
now that when I got older, I was like, but
why were there paper bags on the mirror and women

(10:52):
were told that we couldn't look in the mirror anymore?
Why did all of a sudden one day we could
women were the girls couldn't weird pants anymore. That's weird.
So yes, I have a very like complex, weird relationship
with it because I can't deny the fact that, like,
I have fun. We went skating, we did pot. Look,

(11:13):
did y'all skate a lot too? We did?

Speaker 3 (11:16):
We actually did.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
That's so weird, isn't it. It was this like that
sanctioned activity you're allowed from. You can see.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
That's how skating, Yes, and the pot looks. Those are
things to look forward to, as was the feast.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, that's wild. That's so funny. So this is why
I loved talking to folks that were in it around
the country because yeh, very different perspectives, but at the
same times, there are a lot of commonalities that were like,
oh wait, we all hit that.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Okay, that's weird, right exactly. I'm just really curious how
you're pearance ended up in this racist organization because I
even as a child, I remember thinking we had one
black family in Russellville, Arkansas, just for a short period
of time. I hope they just got out.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
I don't know if they moved or they left the church. Yeah,
But even then, as a child, I just thought, gosh,
that's gotta be hard because they you know, I remember
from the pulpit, like the things that were said. It
was almost like like if you weren't like if you
were white, then you were like part of God's chosen

(12:39):
And then and then you know, through Jesus, they allowed
gentiles to be part of it, and any you know,
any person of color was considered a gentile, and so
it was almost like, well, you don't really belong here,
but we're gonna let you like take part. So then
it never never was like there never was equality in

(13:02):
the roost.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
There wasn't. I don't think if there was a quality overall. Again,
I'll reinforce my church was sixty seventy percent black. Yeah,
so I think it made a difference, though we didn't
see a lot of black leadership. Still. I think I
recall one black minister who I actually just became friends
with his daughter recently. I was like, oh, no, your dad,

(13:24):
Your dad was actually the kind pastor I remember. Which
is such a small world. But how did my folks
get into it? So ironically, my mom was not in it.
We lived in the same family, grew up together. They
were married for twenty five years until my dad passed.
But my grandfather going further back was an at home preacher.

(13:46):
He had his own little service in his house. He
started taking the tapes of Herbert w Armstrong and listening
to them and playing them, and so my dad got
that a little bit, and then my mom says that
she google back there. So I have a lot of
great for people making decisions. I have a lot of great, especially,
I think for black folks that were trying to just

(14:07):
find the best way, especially out of their craziness that
was the Civil Rights movement. You get into the seventies
and you're just trying to be upwardly mobile and start
your family. Come eighties and then Reagan blah blah. I
think that my mom said she came to my father
and was like, hey, I heard I know you like
this Herbert w Armstrong. I heard they actually have a

(14:32):
building a service here if you want to check out.
My friend told me about it, so he did, and
then I guess a few months later he came back
and was like, I joined, And my mom was like,
wait what. So that was kind of a like okay, sure.
So my mom would kind of attend. She would attend
on special occasions or if there was a pot luck,

(14:52):
she would go to the feast, but she always did
sit back, which I think calls us to always have
one i open, because she would she would always just
be like, you know some you just think quite right
with this, something is weird. Especially I think one of
the ways that it affected our household the most was

(15:15):
the financial aspect. While where a wide Church of God,
as far as my memory is concerned, did not do
tithing weekly like like past the plate, we did have
you know, we had first, second, third tides. And I
recalled the envelopes coming into our house where my dad
would still out the check and it was so special

(15:37):
because it was like, my dad's name is on this
envelope and we have to send money out. I found
one of the envelopes recently and I was like, no,
I'm not crazy. No, while we were not weekly sending
an offering, we still have those envelopes that we were
supposed to put money in. And then on top of
you know, the tides as well. So that's how they

(15:59):
my dad got in and my mom was just like
all right, yeah, it's still some religious upbringing. Sure they
can go to church, Sure it's on Saturday. But she
always did have one eye open, which I think.

Speaker 5 (16:09):
Caused us to be a little a little more skeptical,
and again, like I think we could overlook some of
the doctrine, or some of my the elders there overlook
some of the more.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Racist they ass doctrine. Because our congregation was majority black,
we had like a circle. So that's honestly, it's like,
it's like living in America. It's like, all right, yeah,
there's racism. So I understand the justification of why they
were like, that's fine, we have our little yeah, uh,

(16:46):
even though it's still destructive and it's pretty.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Discussable, he was. I mean, just like the just what
gets ingrained because I think it it as a child,
it kind of informs you about yourself and you're internalizing
those things exactly.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
You know. That's my big takeaway, Not that you know,
I have heard some absolutely heartbreaking, traumatic stories doing my podcast,
but I think some of the things that you are
learned and that are instilled in you as a kid,
that were instilled in us as a kid, are pretty
detrimental too, that are just now starting to be unpact.

(17:28):
Like there's a lot of people from my congregation that
are not happy with what I'm doing right now and
they're like, no, we didn't. We didn't drow up in
a cult. We didn't do this. Da da da da.
And it made me question it. I was like, all right,
how am I defining cult? What does that mean? And
it made me look and be like, yo, that doctrine,
even though we have fun, was very detrimental and not

(17:50):
safe and very harmful for folks.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
So yeah, and if you're in an organization that, if
you leave, then you are literally using your chance at
eternal life.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
I mean that's a cult. Yeah, you know, and we
all lived under that fear exactly. I think the difference too,
is like as a kid, you I couldn't swallow that
as much, Like I didn't get it as the heaviness
of that as much. But I just think about what
that did to my friend's parents. Like I interview one

(18:26):
of my friends, and her parents had been in since
the sixties, so that means they had gone through Herbert
saying the world was going to end. And like, I
don't remember sixty eight, seventy two, seventy five, I don't
know something around air, but another.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Somewhere in the seventies.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, that he that you stick around, and he said
the world's about to end this year, and then you
still stay he can't be detrimental, are They also went
to Ambassador College and they were like, yeah, we were
like a few of the first black groups folks that
got to go to Ambassador College. And that's hard. Like

(19:07):
they've been y'all were gentiles forever and now you're going
to write a higher education. But doesn't value you that right?
That generational that stuff just like it keeps spreading and
it it it goes down to your their kids and
then it goes down. You know, if you don't stop
a curse, then it keeps going. Uh, a generational curse,

(19:29):
then it keeps going. So yeah, I just think a
lot of the the philosophies and doctrine were just you know, detrimental.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Oh yeah, you know we I mean, there are certain
things for me that stand out and probably for Maddie
as well. But our dad was super strict about, you know,
the Sabbath. We were definitely not doing anything Friday night
sundown to Saturday night sundown, and we didn't dare like

(19:59):
step outside that, you know, including even going to the
grocery store. So there were things like that where I
was always trying to like really make sure I was
doing it the right way. And then there were also
you know, like there was the threat of the Lake
of fire and the threat of demons, and I'm wondering
if you had any of those things hanging over you

(20:20):
as a child growing up.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
I did. But I have to say again, with my
mom not being in it, we pushed the boundaries. We
I think the things that we were more concerned about
was the church finding out, because we were more scared
of like what how they would judge us? And as
far we're talking to some friends they say too, they

(20:43):
were like, oh no, I know some of the adults
that talk bad about your mom because she never joined
the church. So I never got to like, uh, I
feel like we are allowed to push some boundaries. One
are my examples that I use a lot in this
that just so late for me. Shows the fear that
you had and what if the church founds finds out

(21:04):
and judges you is uh Christmas? So my mom wanted
to celebrate Christmas. Obviously my dad didn't. And You're like, damn,
that's huge. It was for people to get that. I'm like,
oh no, no, this is huge. My dad he worked
at a hospital. He was a lab technician, and he

(21:26):
worked like his hours were like seven am to three pm,
which gives you plenty of times. I have Christmas, so
I recall often that would me for work. My mom
would wake up, go to the closet, hurry up, get
presents out. We'd have a we had a mini tree.
She'd throw those those those presents, the mini tree. Wake up,

(21:48):
n wrap your presence, yay, take some pictures, put it back.
My dad come home, he'd be like, what did you
do today. We'd be like, not there, we didn't do anything.
It was crazy. That's like, I don't even know. That's crazy.
It was here.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Oh that's so funny. And I remember how any guilt.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Sorry Christmas. No, I had more fear when I thought
others would find out. So I don't know if that
was like I think it was more fear of other
people versus fear of like burning in hell, the like
a fire that stuff. I was like, this is a

(22:30):
good story, This is cute. This is why I'm an
athaday because it gave me fadder, like this is very craepy.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
I love that. I'm like, you definitely had to channel that.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Right, I'm like, wow, what a nice story. But I
do remember one Christmas, maybe it was Christmas or right afterwards,
the tree was up and a church member came by
and my mom was like, I remember we had to
like hide in the door so they couldn't see anything,
and like stand strategically at the floor so they wouldn't

(23:05):
see it. We're just like, hey, sugar, which is crazy
because my mom didn't attend, but there was still like
fear of oh my god, we know what the repercussions.
The repercussions are if they find out, and how much
more will be judged, uh, because there was a lot
of that, and that's what happens in cults when you

(23:26):
have groupthink and you're judge for some of the things
that you choose to do outside of the norm.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, and I bet your dad was
pressured within the church your mom in.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Right, Oh yeah yeah. My friend actually that I spoke
about earlier that I talked to was like, no, I
remember my parents being like she should come more. Why
doesn't she come more? How come she doesn't see the
light that kind of stuff, And my mom was like
I'm not going. Your mom's like God just didn't call me,
which is funny because my mom grew up Jehovah Witness, so.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
No way, wait, she was practicing no Jehovah's witness oh
before that, Okay.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
He was raised Jehovah Witness now, which because my grandparents were,
we would go on uh we would go sometimes to
the witness hall to go to church if we didn't go.
So I was like, I was sitting in one church
where I'm like, weird. I go to another church, but
yallow weird too. This is all weird. It's all Oh

(24:39):
my god.

Speaker 4 (24:40):
You're so lucky that you could see all the weirdness
as it was happening. I'm jealous.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, I think again. My mama, like I was able
to keep because she was very huge. We're huge in
education and huge into making sure that we had activities.
So I remember being so set, honestly leaving for the
feast because my brain was like I have two weeks

(25:05):
worth of homework to catch up on now. Oh yeah,
and that was the worst. You're like, I got a
lot of homework I gotta do, and you know you
would collect as much as you can. I just I
just recalled like leaving school and you just have stacks. Yes, homework.
Also feel bad for the teachers, like, here, give this

(25:27):
child two weeks worth of homework prepare for them.

Speaker 6 (25:30):
Like that's a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
But I remember come high school. I remember putting my
foot down and was like, I want to go to college,
I want to get out, I want to do blah
blah blah. I don't think the feast is going to
allow me to do that. And I feel like we
became we started going either more local, like I feel
like I went we went to Dayton for a few
times because it was easier than to be in school.

(25:58):
Because by the end, I was like, I this has
taken me away from my goals and my education, and
I'm very lucky that. Honestly, both parents were like okay, yeah,
that might be a little hard and didn't enforce it
as much versus I know some of my friends who
went to the same school as I did. They were like,

(26:18):
we were jealous because you got to go to a
football game. You were the rebel that was like yeah,
as a marching band. So I was like, I'm going
a Friday night football game. I'll see y'all Saturday, but
I'm still doing this Friday night. And they were like, wow,
you are a rebel.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah, I never ever did that.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
We would sneak Saturday Morning cartoons like it.

Speaker 7 (26:43):
Was very because we had an old school eighties TV
where it wasn't even I don't think it was a
remote yet, but you could like swipe underneath in all
the volume and all.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
The picture would go away, but the TV would be on,
and so my dad would come down, we would swipe
and just hang out my brother and I'd be like, oh,
we're just we're good, and then you would you just
wipe and start watching duck Feels or whatever.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
Oh my goodness, I haven't. Yeah that, Like I really
thought God is getting like personally punish me if I
do that.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
So damn Yeah. I really think having that outside eye helped,
just that I was not in it one hundred percent.
And I also recall, like my I recall specifically, Christmas
was just a huge argument my aunt wanting to give
us presents and my dad being like, no, they can't

(27:44):
have them, and that huge fight. And I think witnessing
that made me go, like, what religion is so strict
that you can't give a child a present. You don't
have to say it's perfect, it's just I just wanted
the damn etcha sketch? What right? Well? So strict that

(28:06):
a damn present is going to turn you make you
go to hell?

Speaker 3 (28:11):
Absolutely? I know a kid from school gave me a
package of hairbands for Christmas. It was one of my
friends in like elementary school, and my parents are like,
you have to return that because you can't keep a
Christmas gift.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
You know.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
It is just really it's hard to imagine that way
of thinking. Did you were was your dad also?

Speaker 8 (28:35):
Like?

Speaker 3 (28:35):
Was he strict? Did he take on the you know,
husbands are supposed to keep their children and control through
corporal punishment and the wife in control and all that.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
I like, we got spankings growing up. I don't know
if I would attribute that to to the religion. I
do recall my mom and again having that outside, being
upset because she's like, I remember when blah blah baby
would cry and the whole congregation would look at them
as they were the worst parent ever. A baby's gonna cry.

(29:11):
And I remember her saying that when I was little,
so immediately I was like, yeah, why are you tripping
because a child is crying? It's a baby. I recall
it being done. I recalled the special room that you
would get sent to and the parent would get sent
Did you have a special room?

Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah, well we had well, we had like a mother's
room and if no one was in the mother's room
like nursing a baby, then that was where we would
get a spanking if we if we talked or something
or made noise.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, right, that's the special room. That was also where
we had like the you studies, which is also wild
Children's Bible study in here black mother's room, Hitchel child room.
That's that's yeah, that's real. Jesus Lee like.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
Oh my goodness, do you do you remember the work
books that we had to do, like the Y E.
S workbooks and the Wyo.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
You you do? I do? I show you? Yes?

Speaker 3 (30:15):
Please?

Speaker 1 (30:16):
I so hi. I'm like, yo, I still have this.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Can we start getting these mass produced again?

Speaker 3 (30:25):
Let's do our own version.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
It'll be no inn oh.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
My gosh, oh wow. Oh let a throwback what with
all way? No way? They're all completed too, right good.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
Because I was like, well I am gonna be good
and finish off because I was born in church, so yeah,
I am.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
My goodness, there is one I remember and I think
it was the flood, and it's like people like dying
trying to get on the boat or something, and it's
just horrifying to think how little we were. I know,
I know, we're like coloring.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
The people dying. She did color her red and like dad,
which is probably why I like true crime now because
as a kid, I.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Was, yeah, that's right, that might explain my taste as well.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
I started doing my research. I was like, I I don't.
I never wanted to jump on a bandwagon and be like, guy,
it's the cult. We're in a cult. I was like,
I want to do my own damn research. Let me.
I started reading the British American Prophecy Book, which is Absolute,
which spell spells out how much he thought that a

(32:07):
British is realism versus people of color and tiles. So
I wanted to do my own research because I needed
to separate the fact that, again, I grew up in
an environment that felt more supportive and we were shielded
from a lot of the trauma and damage h versus
the doctrine that our parents uh were getting. So that's

(32:27):
why I collected and kept all of my found all
all you stuff at home.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
I have no idea what happened to mine? But I
still remember it so vividly.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yes, this was like a huge part, Like I have
a binder, y'ah, this is a binder, yeah listening, This
is a binder full of Bible lessons. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
And as you got older, yeah, yeah, and you got older,
they went crazier.

Speaker 4 (32:54):
We had that saying I don't know what was in it,
if it was a complete set, but we have that
same folder like the brown it's like loss gold or whatever, like.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
At the house.

Speaker 4 (33:06):
Uh, mom and dad had.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
It for years.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
I don't know what happened to it, but yeah, it
might have been yours or Sarah's or somebody's.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah maybe. And you know, as you as you got older,
then you had to memorize scriptures and that got more
lengthy and complicated. I feel like as a child, like
by the time I was a teenager, I feel like
I could turn to any scripture in the Bible as
fast as anyone. I don't know if you were like that,

(33:35):
but we we were in the Bible so much.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah. I do rem like if they said a verse,
I'd be or if they say, like, I don't know,
turn to John blah blah, blah. I knew I'd be like, okay,
that's right here in the Bible.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yes. When I would be bored, I would try to
go faster than other people around me to be like
can I do it? Just like gamifying church, you're a.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Board, We were like what are you talking about?

Speaker 3 (34:10):
So we couldn't admit that we were bored.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
We would have been bad, been very bad.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
So were there any Were there any of the doctrines
that like really impacted you or stood out to you?
Or was it was it more balanced because of your mom?

Speaker 1 (34:30):
I mean, honestly, I think the one that I brought
up earlier with regards to race was the one that
affected me more as a black person.

Speaker 5 (34:37):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Seeing how the church reacted when one of my peers
dated and wanted to date a white guy was like
you would have thought World War three had happened. And
I remember, like some of the elder whites like being like,
oh my god, how could this happen? And I was

(34:58):
just like, what are what? That's the big deal? What
are y'all talking about? You know, by this time we're
in the nineties, so of course we were like who cares?
And just honestly, seeing how noticing how the our black
parents were treated a little bit differently. There was a

(35:19):
huge incident where one of the guys who had a
smaller leadership role he could never get higher but a
smaller leadership role, stood up and spoke against it, and
they ended up kicking him out of the church. And
as a kid, I remember being like, oh my, of
course it's drama, so you're like, what is happening, but

(35:39):
realizing it was because he was like, I cannot deal
with how the racist doctrine is affecting us and you
want us to be second class citizens. I feel like
that affected me in just terms of like worth throughout
my adulthood, terms of understanding like who I was. I
feel like that is the biggest one that that I

(36:03):
took away. That was like, yo, that was hugely damaging.
And I actually had a curiosity last night. I went
on Grace Communion's website because I was just curious about there.
For me, Grace Communion is the one that like quickly
resonates as to the offshoot right after World War church

(36:25):
got and I was like, I wonder if they said
anything about that, And they actually apologized in just twenty
twenty and made us. I know, I was like, y'all,
y'all boy, okay, yeah, a little bit sure. But they
actually have a huge apology that they've written that says,

(36:45):
we apologize. It says blatant, we apologize for the raceis
and the doctrine that we shared that promoted that people
of color were less than We know, this was damaging
and this was some of the rhetoric of Herbert w Armstrong.
So we apologize. And underneath you have like some members

(37:06):
being like, yeah, I remember that always bothered me, and
I was.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Like, why don't do anything?

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, now, rais this in an environment that said and
I remember that. I remember talking to my peers. We
spoke about that in outside of the church, we felt
better than people, you know, because of course we're maybe
one a part of the one hundred and forty four thousand,
it might be better than you. But within the church, I

(37:36):
remember feeling less than because I was black. I remember
being like, oh, well, she gets this because she's white.
And this reverence that they had honestly towards whiteness that
I don't know other peers took that away. I think
in my church was like sixty percent black, So we
had each other. But I don't doubt that that was

(37:57):
a for me, one of the huge, huge things that
I walked away with that I was like, I'm gonna
need some healing on it.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
So, oh, of course. I mean, so much of the
world wide Church of God was centered around whiteness, even
I mean just the doctrine of British Israelism. I mean,
the whole foundation of the church was that. And then
you know, every pamphlet, every booklet, like most of the leadership,

(38:25):
it's all white white. I mean, so even if they're
not like directly saying it, they're showing you in every
action that you're less than in their eyes.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Exactly so, and it's hard. I think I didn't see
a lot of that again until I went to feast,
until and I felt like I was treated differently because
if we went we sometimes would go to feast where
maybe my friends were, and all I remember being like,
oh my God, I hope one of my friends is
going to be at this feast because I knew, like

(38:57):
I would go to the choir, I'd be forced some
special service choir, which was painful, and no one would
talk to me, no one would be my friend. So
I'd be like, oh my god, is there anyone from
my church here that I gulds all to? So it
just shows how separate it was, And yeah, I think
it's it's uh. I think you know, folks today are

(39:20):
still we're obviously all still grapplate with it because healing
is not linear, so not.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
At all in and I that kind of brings me
to So I was curious, like, how did you start
to think maybe that was your you know, wanting to
go to college and further education. But how did you
start thinking like this is not for me and this
is not healthy?

Speaker 1 (39:45):
I think again, it goes back to education. And I
was a huge bookworm. I would like hide away with
books in you know, the bathroom for hours and hours.
I remember bringing books we weren't allowed to, but I
would bring a book to church, like a babysitter club
book and hide it in my Bible. So I was like,

(40:05):
this is way more exciting than that.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
So so your parents, your dad thought you were just
really in the and.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
I was like, spicy, dude, what okay? I was more
hyped about that. I think.

Speaker 9 (40:23):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
That and the ability to do extracurricular while my peers
did not, made a huge difference, so that I feel
like by the end, I had no problems deucing out.
I was like I'm out, I'm going to Chicago. I
was trying to get away as much as possible because

(40:47):
I just was like, this can't be this. Something's wrong
and I didn't know how to put my finger on it.
Something is not right. And then once the church really
really split off, and just seeing what that, Uh, I
don't even have a word for it. I don't know
how you guys felt, but like it just felt so
I don't know dirty is the wrong word, but I

(41:08):
just remember feeling so like, oh, wow, everything we've known
has like imploded. Yeah, I want to get away from
that as much as possible. So I think that that
were the signs that I was like, I'm ready to go,
and I am very lucky and blessed that like both
of my parents were like, yeah, I go to college, Yeah,

(41:30):
I get out, and so I had I had the
freedom to do that. I think at one point, I
remember when I was a kid, I was like, I
want to go to Ambassador. But even the school that
I was in the high school I went to, I
was like, are you going to now Ambassador?

Speaker 3 (41:45):
I'm not doing my that would have been horrible. I
mean my ex husband went and I have heard how
they kind of conduct things and it's very controlling or
it was.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:59):
Before we move on, I just want to know what
was your favorite hymn and why was it? By the
waters of one?

Speaker 1 (42:12):
What was the one? Glorious things we are?

Speaker 3 (42:15):
They are spoken city?

Speaker 1 (42:20):
What is it?

Speaker 2 (42:21):
The other one? Is it?

Speaker 4 (42:22):
Blessed?

Speaker 2 (42:22):
And happy is the man?

Speaker 1 (42:23):
I remember that phage number one?

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Is that the first one?

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (42:29):
I have We actually have a hymnal same you have? Yeah,
and I have the brown?

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Okay, remember when was the wind? Was the brown one?

Speaker 1 (42:40):
The brown one came later?

Speaker 3 (42:42):
Oh okay, I only have the purple.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
So the purple for me was like my childhood. But
then I think the brown one came like late nineties.
They were like, let's let's switch aboup y'all.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Oh my gosh. I literally look through that book a
couple of months ago and just like through some of
the ones that we sang more often, because you know,
we didn't sing everyone in the book, and it's just
amazing what we're we're standing there singing about. It's just
like our enemies are chaffed before the wind, and like

(43:17):
weird stuff like.

Speaker 4 (43:18):
That happy tunes about weeping.

Speaker 10 (43:21):
Like what you no the weeping and gnashing of teeth
as kids, and I remember being like, we gotta sang
four verses of this, like we have all of it.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yeah, there were times that they'd be like, let's just
do verse one and worry.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
Really, Oh man, that's lucky.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
I remember being like, this is which actually does explain
something about myself because I hadn't at that point as
a kid, really been exposed like to black church. I
hadn't really been exposed to it because I was going
to this born ass racist white church that did not
put any jazz in any song.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
There and two parts about that. I remember then going
to like my great great aunts or great grandmother's funeral
and it was in this huge Baptist church, and I
was like, I equated that to funeral. So I remember
telling my parents like funerals. I was like, oh, this

(44:30):
is fun and they were like what I was like,
and we were like, oh, you mean just black church.
Oh man, love that. But I remember a huge controversy
in our church where we did want to start showing
our culture more and there was specific a specific family
in there that fought for that, and.

Speaker 8 (44:51):
We saw a white exodus to the point where like
really a majority black because they were like, hey, we'd
love to bring it, and some like some of our culture,
some ganay and hymns.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Some blah blah blah, and the whites were not having it.
They didn't have it, and it was a huge controversy
because we wanted to switch things up a little bit.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
And the in the leadership allowed that.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
I remember it happening once and it was a lot
of drama behind it. I don't know the drama afterwards,
but I do remember being like, oh, they're they're not happy.
They're not happy with wishing things around. They're fighting. I mean,
they were inclusivity and they don't like it.

Speaker 3 (45:40):
There was there were such strict rules around even special music.
Do you remember, Yes, like special music.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yes, that was born as hell.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
I know it had to be though that those were
like the specifications, like the requirement was that I had
to be boring.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Also, they were really particular about who could do that.

Speaker 5 (45:58):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
I actually had a childhood best friend in school and
she was a great singer, and this was I think
we were gosh. I think I was like twenty two
by this time, and she was visiting and I asked,
you know, she would like to sing a song and

(46:20):
it was something that would have been appropriate according to
the church there, and uh and they said she could
not because she had a child out of wedlock. Yeah,
so she was disqualified to sing bro And that was

(46:42):
in like the Living Church of God, so like I,
you know, in Worldwide Split, it went to living in Yeah,
So yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Y'all, that is yeah. I mean what I know specifically
that I did talk to an elder prior to and
I love that I still call them elders or elders wow,
prior to actually doing the podcast, because the podcast was
like a it was an offshoot of something else I

(47:13):
was writing. And she says that she remembers like going
to leadership and saying, can we bring in a gospel song?
And it was like again World War three, trying to
break something that was a little different, which is just like, y'all,
if they're keeping it so much like this, it's not.

(47:34):
If they're keeping it so tight and so tight to
the chest, maybe this isn't it mainly, this isn't it.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Yeah, exactly that I don't know. It's just it's hard
to believe that we we thought that was normal at
the time, because I definitely did. And as far as
like the music goes, our dad was a musician, you know,
brief for he came into the church and so he

(48:02):
always wished the music was a little livelier. But that
I remembered those conversations, it was an absolute no, we
are we are not gonna be like Protestant churches and
they get emotional and move around and they say things,
and we're not doing that. That's that's what I remember

(48:23):
my childhood.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, I remember being so quiet. So then me finally
going to like a typical Black Baptist church with Colin
response and Organs, I was like, oh, y'all have fun

(48:44):
like this.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Oh yeah, so whenever, okay, So when you you left
you went to college in Chicago.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Did was that just like a was that just like cut.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
Off of that or was there any going back still
having one foot in?

Speaker 1 (49:02):
I would say maybe that first year if I would
come home, I might go to service, and honestly I
would go to sea friends. I would go and see
the people that I was like, oh, I miss you.
And then after that it was just like it was gone.
And then because also by that time, if I'm not mistaken,

(49:23):
my dad had start going to Grace Communion. So that
felt very foreign to me. It didn't feel okay.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
So he stayed with like he went through the changes.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Okay, Yeah, so he went to Grace Communion for a while,
and by that time I remember going a few times
and being like, this is not the same. Like at
that point, it was literally all just like seventy year
old white men. I was like, what yeah, And I'm
like this eighteen year old girl that had just experienced
like full life in Chicago for the first time. I

(49:55):
was like, I'm good.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
You can't go back.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
I can't go back.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
So you kept in touch with some of your friends
that first year, but did when you actually moved and left,
did you lose any of that community? Did you lose
friends over that?

Speaker 1 (50:13):
I don't think I lost quote unquote lost friends. I felt, well,
this is my perspective. I felt like we lost touch
because we had our own lives. I think also because
I was not I was the rebel that did do
things like sneak Christmas presents are not come every week,

(50:36):
or I wasn't knowing I was a church cheerleader, but
I didn't go to all the games that they might
have had a different relationship from me. I also think
the high school I went to was a little bit
more demanding, so I was friends with the church members
that also went to the high demanding high school because

(50:56):
it was a pretty rigorous academic high school. So we
knew what we had to do to get through that. Yeh.
And funny enough, the folks that I interview from my
podcast are the same ones I ended up going to
high school with, and I think we have common bond
not only because of the church, but because of the

(51:17):
education that we both had and our perspectives on things.
So those are actually the people that I ended up
staying in touch with and was open that we're open
to having a conversation about our upbringing once once we
were all ready for that. I feel like the other
folks was like customerbody is. You know, it's a big city,

(51:39):
but it's still it's still small. The other folks if
we would see of course, if I see them out,
it's all love. I mean maybe not now because they're
mad at me, but what I would see them, they
would be like, uh, you know, it was like family.
I stayed at your house for you know, we passover.
I we did, we ate Matza together like we had.

(52:02):
We had a bond there. I I but it. I
could feel the differences in our trajectory if I'm right. Yeah,
so I'm not Yeah, I'm not there anymore.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
Yeah, I'm sure that's helped all of you though process
what you went through.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Yeah, And I think again, healing and processing is not linear.
I think it's going to be a forever process. I
used to think it would be like he takes five
sessions of therapy and then you'll be good. But no,
I think that. And I hope my hope with my

(52:42):
podcast in bringing not only other black world wide church
and God folks, but just other folks that have been
scarred by high control groups are religion are you know,
cults that it gives them an opportunity to think and process.
Be mad at me real quick, that's cool, but also

(53:03):
let think about this because yeah, it's something, it's something
to reflect on now, right.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
And then I just I guess that brings us to
and I think you kind of answered this a little bit,
but what inspired you to start your podcast? Black and cultivated.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Yeah, it's it's a multi layered. I think it's most
things are it's most creative endeavors are When I was ironically,
our church was so into you know, British Israelism and
so into like British folks being the chosen ones, which

(53:44):
sounds so wild saying it from Corwall is the okay
what Ironically I ended up getting my masters in England
and I remember when I went. My mom was like, oh,
I think there's a church member and I was like, mile,

(54:05):
why would I want? What? What is why? So? But
getting my masters in England, that's when I started doing
my research on the world White Church of God and
I called my dad and I remember asking him like,
why did you put us in that? What happened? And
this is why I will always have grace for folks
that like get got by Poults and high demand groups.

(54:28):
It's because he said, look, there was no there was.
I did the best that I could at the time.
I did thee to my understanding, and I am lucky
that I'm able to be like, Okay, I understand that
because nobody gives you a damn rule book. Because my
my experience and my trauma wasn't so detrimental that I

(54:50):
can't understand something a human saying that to another human.
So for him to say that to me, I was like, Okay,
I understand. We'll still kind of mushed up, but I
get it. So that and my personal journey of exploring
really what the church was and the whyse behind it,
And that was a while ago. Fast forward Pandemic. I
started writing a screenplay, a pilot about a little girl,

(55:13):
a little black girl who discovers that the church she's
in is not quite right, and within that it's a comedy.
And within that, I started calling church members and was like, hey,
I'm writing this thing. I'm not I just want to
hear your stories because I feel like all of this
is coming out of me and I want to make
sure it's right. And it's not truly totally based on

(55:37):
World War Church you got, but a lot of it is.
And for example, one of the things I write in
it is how the church was separated. So you go in,
the black people sit here in the back here and
the white people sit here and ironically talking Fast forward
to now and I'm recording folks for Black and cultivate it.
I talked to her name is Pam Red, who's in

(55:59):
one of my so and she's like, oh no, that's
actually how it was. We had special chairs and I
was like what, So I just wrote reap okay, cool,
cool cool cool. So yes, that is what inspired after
talking to so many talking to my dad and then
he died and almost twenty years ago. So after that,

(56:19):
I was like, I don't have I want to talk
to other people to understand it. So I started reaching
out to other church members and got some insight and
realized that I wanted to tell these stories not only
of my church but other folks as well. I think
within the black community, the talk of cults is a

(56:40):
no no and there's so much shame attached with it.
I think there's shame around no matter what, raised when
the city, no matter what. But I specifically if you
look at the if you look at how cults are discussed,
rarely do we see from a black perspective, And I
think I agree, Yeah, I think that within our community,

(57:02):
we definitely are like, we don't want to spill nol tea,
especially around the white people. Don't let them know. Yeah,
we get that too, So you keep that shame internal,
like you can't let the bill everything. And then I
also think that because we are in a a media
world that will highlight when a survivor of like a

(57:24):
white survivor of a huge cult is affected. That is,
that is a newsworthy story versus like, no, there are
other folks too. So yeah, that said, that is what
spawned black and cultivated all of that. And that was
a very long, rambling answer for your No.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
I love that, and I've listened to both of the
episodes that dropped on Yeah, and I am obsessed, like you,
you do such a good job. And it's funny whenever
Matt and I were like, we have to get her
on the podcast, I didn't know that you were an

(58:07):
actor writer, like a voiceover person. I was just like, man,
her voice is so good and she's so energetic, and
like she's gonna be an amazing guest, you know. And
then I read all of that and I'm like, Okay,
this all makes a lot of sense. She's a professional.
But yeah, and you know, like people start podcasts all

(58:31):
the time, and so I had no idea. I was
impressed with your like the production and all of that,
but also the guests, you know, were really interesting. And
you had Katura tops on And I'm like a huge
Survivor fan, so I remember watching that Survivor that wasn't

(58:53):
that long ago. I've watched all of them, and I
cried when she was talking about being in this cult.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Yes, And.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
I had no idea though that the cult she was
in was connected in some way to the Worldwide Church
of God.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
That yeah. I had to reread it and look, I
don't know, I would have to, you know, do deeper
research and ask, but I kept finding it pop up randomly,
saying that him and his brother had attended Herbert w
Armstrong's church and then broke off in like seventy six
or eighty something like that, broke off and created house

(59:36):
of yahweh yeh. I'm like, oh, which made sense because
which she would tell me things like, oh, we would
listen to these tapes, and tapes would come. I was like, yeah,
that sounds very familiar. Are you know? Not that we
were the only ones celebrating Fista tabernacles, but her explanation

(59:57):
of it, I was like, Wow, that's wild. That is
very very similar. And he just broke off, Like but
I want to be crazier. I want to marry children.
Oh oh man, yeah, ruh, he's a lot, but because amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
And it's a two part It is a two part Yeah,
I'm excited to hear the next comes.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Out Monday, and yeah every time I've watched it a
few tons though obviously to do all the editing and stuff,
and I'm like, damn, she's good and I'm so proud
of Harry. I know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
She went through Yeah, the resilience, like even on Survivor,
I was like, she survived all that and then like got.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
A law degree and yeah, that's so inspiring.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
I think it's so important to have people like that
on your show because people can see, like, what, you know,
what can happen on the other side.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Of that, which was so important to have, you know,
I'm I'm I'm billing it as a comedy podcast, and
obviously there's nothing funny about any of the stories. The
absurdity of what happened is like the haha. But it
was really important for me to have people on that
have gotten to a place of healing where we can
laugh about the fact that we hit Christmas trees from

(01:01:26):
my church members that we can't laugh about the bad
special music that was pain for you. It was really
important for me to have folks like that on and
at Katura just like went above and beyond the beautiful
storytelling that she shared, and she's coming out with a
book I'm so excited about.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
Oh that's great. That's that's going to be really good.
And uh yeah, I love the humor too, because I
do think it's appropriate. I mean, because of the absurdity
whenever we laugh or make jokes, it's that it isn't
saying that it wasn't painful. But you can have both things,
I think.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Absolutely, and I think it's important to have similarly for
you guys, someone that's come from it. So we're not
like like so much, especially in true the true crime
podcast world, it's so much sensationalism of like, look what
happened versus like, oh no, I've been there. We've all

(01:02:28):
been there different ways, but we get it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
We yeah, Yeah, there's there's kind of and I don't
hate all of the true crime, especially like in the
Cult Sphere podcast, but there is kind of a certain
and I don't mean this in a totally negative.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Way, but it's a little voyeuristic in some ways.

Speaker 4 (01:02:48):
Yeah, which I've kind of felt where it's it's kind
of like people who haven't experienced some of these things, like,
let's have this person on this is some wild shit
they went through, let's talk about it. It's it's crazy,
let's you know, and that is it's true, but also
like there's some drama there and if you don't really
have the paradigm, the same paradigm as that person to
kind of see and now for me that can kind

(01:03:11):
of it feels a little less authentic. So I again,
obviously I love what you're doing because I feel like,
in a similar way, that's kind of how we wanted.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
To do it, Like, yeah, we know this, let's talk
to other people.

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
We can kind of understand that same language a little
bit and then maybe clue other people in that might
not understand that to say like, here's what we're talking.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
About exactly exactly. Yeah, that was definitely the goal. I
wanted to create a safe space where people felt comfortable
to share their story in that way. And I think,
like you said, it was important that having come from it,
there is a shared language. Even if look tore story

(01:03:52):
that yes, wild, absolutely wild, and I cannot compare any
of my experience to that, but I know, I understand
these the doctrine that starts the damage there.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
I talked one of the ladies, I talked to you
a little later on uh, because we've been having this
debate and I'm actually curious about your perspective, like defining
cult because it's been such a huge thing within this
And she said something that blew me out the water
because I was like, well, maybe it wasn't maybe I'm crazy.
Maybe da da da da. And one she said, you know,

(01:04:32):
just because you were having fun doesn't mean you're not
in a cult. And two she said, oh, you know
what's interesting, my uncle said, had it stayed around, well,
our Church of God stayed around longer, had we kept
continuing down that path, we would have also drank kool aid.
And I was like, oh, oh, okay, got it. We
just ended early, Okay exactly. That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Yeah, that is it's it's I think they get you
in this mindset. And Steven Hassen, I don't know if
you've looked at any of his work, but he's a
cult expert and he o created thee yeah, the byte model,
and we we use that in the beginning to really
try to help us wrap our heads around, you know,

(01:05:20):
the idea that what we were in was a cult.
But I think you make a really good point. If
there's so much control exerted over how you think that
you and how you view the authority over you, that
you would drink the kool aid if they said here's
the kool aid, drink it. And that is a cult.

(01:05:41):
And I think we all were in that we would
have done what the leadership said to do. I mean,
we were prepped and primed for. You know, when the
tribulation starts, the people who are accounted worthy are going
to escape.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
And we were told, you're not going to.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Know how you are gonna we can't tell you now
how you're gonna know it's time to go, but we'll
let you know, like somehow the leadership or something. So
they all said that, and we would have just gone.
Our parents would have, like.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
So many folks, a saved up for Petra? Is it?
Petra is a Petrave?

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Oh here we go?

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Oh okay, Yeah. We have this debate all the time
because I kept calling it Petra. Yeah, and I get
I think it's Petra. It's Petra.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
I'm in camp Petra. She's in camp Petra. You're a
tie breaker.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
I naturally I said Petra first, right, did I say Petro?

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
Okay, I don't know, it's Petra.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
I looked it up.

Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
I've been wrong my whole life, but that's because mom
and dad were wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Okay, see, but so many else we're prepping for that.
And I always was like, how we get there?

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Who on the wings of a great eagle?

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
That's it. I was like, no, it has to be
like Milta so like as a kid, I couldn't. I
couldn't quite. Yeah, but I don't get it. Why are
we going there? And how and the whole I was
also confused because, like I said, my mom's parents were

(01:07:29):
My mom's parents were Jehovah witnessed, so they were huge
in one hundred and forty four thousand.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
So I was always so, if you'll get one hundred
and forty four thousand.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
That's a lot. That's like close to three hundred thousand,
and no one has talked about that number. No Randall like,
how are you the chosen church? If they are also
the Chosen church?

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
But they're deceived clearly.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
I clearly was like confused because then I would go
to the other church and they'd be like, they're deceived.
I'm like, y'all got out whole's right?

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Oh my gosh, Oh it's so much of that. I
just remember so much of talking about other groups and
how they're deceived and they don't know God.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Yes, I've prayed for those people. I vividly remember that.
I vividly remember that. And again it brought up such
confusion considering the diverse religious background of my family.

Speaker 6 (01:08:35):
The good people I don't remember stand yeah, confuse it,
I mean, and then all that you're supposed to believe
that God is just this merciful, loving God, but then
everybody you love that isn't in your group, they're going
to be like, you know, enslaved and tortured.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
And that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Like I need to go back and actually read these.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
Oh gosh, yeah, I would like to, because I've tried
to explain this to my husband and he's just like
what and some I'm like, no, I need to get
my hands on those.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
We might have to do like the reading series. Yeah, yes,
I want to know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
That was like my childhood and doctrination, you know, probably
give me some answers, just some.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
Things I know, like, oh, no, I get it. Now
we might have to do all the there's the Apostates
sisters that are also in World Warde Church of God.
They did have a reading series that was like all
of Herbert gu w Armstrong's booklets and they would pull
that passages out and go through them and they're just
it's wild. That's why I'm like, y'all, I know we're

(01:09:55):
not ready to accept the yet, but we were in
a cult and it's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
Yes, yes, the sooner you accept it, the sooner you
can start that healing journey.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
And just start laughing because what.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
So like, as far as your healing journey goes, are
there any like, do you have any advice for anybody
who's also going through this, anything that helped you in
that journey? And I know you're still on it because
you know, as we discussed, it's not linear.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
So yeah, I think finding number one what works for
you and some days that might be therapy, some days
that might be going to yoga, some days that might
be finding your own path to spirituality. You know, for
a long time I was so questioning, like, well, what

(01:10:50):
does this mean about my faith? And you know, I
had a friend who jokingly said it, but it stayed
with me. She was like, whatever, you don't even believe
in God because I didn't go to church anyway, or
because I didn't practice in that way. And I realized that,
like because of my upbringing, it calls it calls this
schism where I was like, well, forget everything, and then

(01:11:11):
I realized like, well, no, I'm still spiritual. I just
don't believe in necessarily organized religion. And that's okay. I
the damage is organized religion, but I still believe in
a higher power, a mother Earth or what have you. Yes.
So I think it's like one recognizing that and know
that it's not going to be linear and that is okay. Yes,

(01:11:32):
and whatever way that you need to share your story
do so. It's harder, easier said than done, but recognized
that everyone's not going to be on the same path
with you. I think that's my biggest like aha was
is understanding like, oh, we're not all at the same place,
and that's okay. It might be a solo, lonely journey

(01:11:56):
caring out this stuff and and and that's totally okay.
I'm very again, I'm very lucky that my mom gave
one hundred percent support towards me doing this because when
I told her, I was like, well, I think we're
in a cult and I want to do a podcast,
and she was like, I knew they were weird.

Speaker 9 (01:12:18):
Oh was all so having her support, Honestly, I'm very
lucky because a lot of people don't have that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
So find the people that do support you, find the
people that do have your bags. Yeah, and you know,
get the decide what kind of help you need in
the moment and realize, yeah, I might I haven't haven't
been in there been a while, but now it might
be now that the podcast is out, might be time
to go back.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
Yeah, Because I think, like I mean, if you're anything,
you know, if it works the same for you as
it has for me, more things have come up that
I didn't expect back or realize. We're still like rattling
around in there, and so it's been new stuff to process.
As I've heard other people. Because it's like you said,

(01:13:11):
I like that analogy of like people might be on
different spots on the path of healing, and and I
think that sometimes can be dependent on the person. Because
we've noticed in our family with siblings, some siblings certain
things hit them way harder then it might have hit

(01:13:32):
me or another sibling, and so like everyone's processing kind
of in their own way. Yeah, different way.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and being okay with that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):
Yes, yeah, do you have siblings? Where there other kids?
And definitely in that well yeah, you you mentioned that
at Christmas time, I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
So I have two younger brothers, yeah, oldest, and I
would say my middle brother, and I understand were went
through this more so than my baby brother. My baby brother,
he's like nine years younger than me. So when I
talk to him about it, he's like, I don't remember
any of this, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's nice, right.

(01:14:19):
Well yeah, but when I think back, like, oh, you
were born after Herbert died, Like I recall being in
church when he died, like that was huge. So there
are definitely things he doesn't remember. The sneaking around of

(01:14:43):
getting a cartoon, putting a cartoon on are he doesn't remember.
My mom would sometimes Mom, when I think about it
more and more, I'll be like, damn, my mom was
a badass. Now that she's older, I'm like, Mom, blah
blah blah. But yeah, thinking back, I was like, Wow,
the way that you fought for your kids is pretty awesome.

(01:15:04):
But my mom would sneak us out because my brother
wanted to play soccer and they on Saturdays, so she
would be like, they're going to soccer, and so we'd
have to get up super early and sneak and get
in the car and go to soccer before my dad
got up to go and be like where are they
because I'm going to take them to church, which is

(01:15:25):
now that I think about it, I'm like, oh, I
suppressed that. I didn't even realize. I forgot all about that.
But yeah, she would sneak us out to or she
would have us. We would stay at our grandparents' house
on Friday night. That way we could just go straight
to soccer on scery take planning, like plan around all

(01:15:45):
this was a badass, Like, oh, but yeah, I feel
like my siblings experienced it. My middle brother and I
we kind of get it. I remember him like running
away to avoid going to church, things like that, but
my baby brother didn't get the brunt of it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
Okay, Yeah, I asked that just because now I remember
you were talking about your siblings. But as as you
are healing through this, that maybe some of you interpreted
some of what happened or internalized certain things differently. Yeah,
and that's like been a really big thing in our
family that we found so well.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
I also, I think because my baby brother didn't get
a lot of it, he was able to go to
Grace Communion and be okay with it. Now, he was
still a teen so really didn't get it, but my
dad was going. He would go with my dad. But

(01:16:47):
by that time it turned into something a little different
than what I had experienced. And then even when my
dad died, leadership from Grace Communion did like help my brother.
They're out, so his memories are very different from me
trying to run an escape versus under the wings and

(01:17:09):
being taken care of folks by folks that helped them
after our dad passed. So it is, it is very fascinating,
how you know, those just nine years made a huge
difference in terms of how we look at it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:23):
Yeah, for sure, have they all listened to the podcast yet?

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
My episode the trailer, my brother is like it's in
the queue, so he hasn't listened yet. They have heard
the stories and heard what I've been talking about. And yeah,
very lucky that they're like super supportive, they're super I
caught them.

Speaker 11 (01:17:47):
I was like, hey, there might be a backlash, and
they were like about a little Yeah, how do you
handle your backlash?

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
Just run from it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:05):
I'm in therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Matt gets tattoos to deal with his to deal with. Yeah,
that's deep, y'all. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):
Well, we've been talking lately about all the things that
we didn't get to.

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
Do that now we can do now.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
And you know, tattoos are one of them.

Speaker 4 (01:18:28):
Tattoos desecrating the temple.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
You know you're failing. Yeah, that was a fire for you.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
All right, So do you want to tell people where
they can find your podcast and how often it drops
and all that good stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
So Black and Cultivated in its first season, is now out.
You can find us on YouTube under Black and Cultivated
or any platform where you listen to your podcast. Right now.
For season one, we're scheduled for I believe nine episodes.
My goal is to get some sponsorship, assistance, some another

(01:19:12):
production company to come in and help with season two.
I want to continue it, but got dang, it's a
lot of work, y'all know, a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
He does. I get to just talk like this is
so easy.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
This is my goal. I'm like, I just want to
I just want to know. But the goal is to
continue to tell these stories because there is there's clearly
a need. I've had so many dms that people are like,
oh my god, I'm black, I was in a cult.
I didn't know I was allowed to talk about it.
I'm black, I was in this vault, and I'm so

(01:19:51):
glad you're sharing your stories because it makes me feel
less crazy. So I think there is a need, especially
and there's today that there's definitely a need to share
those stories right now. It's a limited series and the
goal is to pop off with season two with some

(01:20:12):
assistance there. So yeah, Instagram, follow us, also on Block
and cultivated like YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
Yes, and I will be listening for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:20:22):
YEA.

Speaker 4 (01:20:24):
Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and
hear humor today. You know, your ability to make us
laugh while talking through some of this very serious stuff
is a gift, So thank you for sharing that. For
those that are listening, who are deconstructing their beliefs, healing
from religious trauma, or just starting to question the systems

(01:20:46):
that they were raised in, just kind of let this
be a reminder that healing does not have to be
a serious and solemn thing all of the time. Sometimes
laughter is a part of the medicine, or like the
saying goes the best Edison, And there's deep power in
kind of being able to share your truth, even the
messy and painful parts, with a little bit of lightness

(01:21:07):
and authenticity. So all of you listening can follow Lanisa's
work on her podcast, Black and Cultivated, where she keeps
it honest, funny, and deeply human. So thank you again
for being with us. If this episode moved you, feel
free to share it with someone on their own healing path.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
Thank you and thank you, thank you. Can I say
really quickly too, thank you for giving a platform to
not only share my story, but to now share my
project as well. I've been on a few podcasts prior
to Black and Cultivated coming out, so this is the
first one in which I'm able to share uh now
that the project is out. So I want to thank
you sincerely for allowing me and give me that platform, guys,

(01:21:50):
and thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:21:51):
For the honor of being first. If you liked this episode,
please go leave us a five star rating and review
wherever that is, if it's Apple, Spotify or another service.
It's really helpful, and don't forget to subscribe so that
you can get notified to when.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
We have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.