August 20, 2025 • 53 mins
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This is part 2 of our conversation with Luna, where she shares her journey of leaving a high-control church and beginning to question long-held beliefs. A key moment in her story is the decision to wear pants again, symbolizing her first step toward personal freedom and self-expression. She discusses the fear of rejection rooted in her family and religious teachings, her struggle with the idea of a punishing God, and how she gradually embraced self-love. Luna also reflects on the impact of purity culture and the importance of trusting oneself and sharing one’s story as part of healing.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
This is part 2 of our conversation with Luna, where she shares her journey of leaving a high-control church and beginning to question long-held beliefs. A key moment in her story is the decision to wear pants again, symbolizing her first step toward personal freedom and self-expression. She discusses the fear of rejection rooted in her family and religious teachings, her struggle with the idea of a punishing God, and how she gradually embraced self-love. Luna also reflects on the impact of purity culture and the importance of trusting oneself and sharing one’s story as part of healing.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 4 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
He's speaking through me the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
The veil is the chamber.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In their life.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
God is going to be moving vitally and bot like.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Bossing judgment.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cult next Door Podcast.
Before we jump into part two with Luna, just very quickly,
want to give those reminders go follow us on our
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(01:23):
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We want to hear from you. Also, our Double Portion
Club shout outs. Can't start an episode without giving those
(01:44):
Shandan Chase, Heather Bartlett, Carla and a new one Julia B.
Thank you all for supporting the podcast. If you listener
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(02:08):
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so thank you all very much for doing that. And now,
without any further delays. Let's jump into part two with Luna.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Oh my gosh, So when you left the church in Alaska,
your parents stayed right, Yeah, how was that like, is
that when a rift started where you kind of started
the separation process.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Yes, So my husband wrote a letter to the group there.
It was six pages and it basically used the scriptures
to spell out, you know, we're off guys. Even using
the scriptures, we're in a mess here. We're following a profit.
It's very clear in scriptures what to do when a
(02:58):
man prophesies in it and come to pass, you need
to follow nor fear him. Like it was so clear.
He spilled it out very clearly, and he was like,
we are so sorry for our part in building this,
and we repent and we won't be coming back. And
at that point we received a letter. But now we
(03:19):
are Argentina. Okay, we're like ten thousand miles away from Alaska.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Oh, that's where you moved.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Where we were. We went on a we went on
a mission trip to Argentina.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Oh okay.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Now I have to say that was the I think
that was the way that his soul contrived to get
us out, and I knew I would have never said
it at the time, I would have never even allowed
myself to think it or speak it. I knew that
was our ticket out, and so we uh, we went
(03:55):
down to Minister to Win Widows and Orphans, and it
was a place where the man that my dad had
partnered with to start this group, he was the prophet
of the group. My dad was the pastor of the group.
He had been there before, so I think it was
just his way of picking something that would have been
(04:20):
approved by the leadership. And he was like, Okay, the
Lord told me that we're supposed to go on a
mission trip to Argentina, and so he saved all summer,
worked all summer long, saved up money, and then the
four of us left in the fall of twenty eleven Argentina,
and we planned to be down there a year. By
(04:42):
the time he had deconstructed the situation and we had
decided we were ready to go, it was about five
and a half six months and yeah, so we decided, well,
we're not going to go back to Alaska, and we
told them that and they basically sent us back like
a your four line, we accept your apology. Next time
(05:06):
you have a word from the Lord, feel free to
come speaking in person, and we will help you pack
your things. And then all the brothers signed it, so
that was the response we got. I knew at that
point we were shunned. And I remember sitting on a
swing in Cordoba, Argentina, at a park, watching my little
(05:28):
girls play on the playground and weeping because I knew
that everything I knew, everyone I loved was dawn and
I would not have that again. And we were alone
in the world. I mean, he and I and our
two little children.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So your sisters had to shun you as well at
that point, so you lost them too, Wow, Yeah I did.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
It was very lonely. And you know what, my dad
always used to use a phrase and I said all
the time, I wouldn't trade it for a million bucks,
and I wouldn't give you a nickel for any more
of it. Like, Yeah, it made me who I am.
It made me strong. It forced me to look at
myself and my beliefs and who am I and what
(06:19):
do I believe fundamentally, And so for that I am
eternally grateful. And you know, the last twelve years has
been a process of me just journeying through everything that
I've encountered in my past and you know, deconstructing many things, unlearning, deprogramming,
(06:48):
and you know, finding myself.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Did it start that deprogramming and unraveling? Did that start
when you when you guys left, when you made that
decision when you were in Argentina and then you came back.
Was that the beginning?
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Well, I mean it was the beginning of my allowing
myself to think critically in question things. Up to that point,
I had been afraid my entire life to have my
own thoughts because somehow my dad always proted it out.
And you know, what I've learned about that personality type
is that they're very tuned into energy and other people's
(07:33):
interaction with them. They can tell are you with them?
Are you pulling back? And so I think that was
his way of knowing thinking that the Holy Spirit was
speaking to him. He was just very tuned into was
I on the same page or not? Was I with him?
And so anytime he sensed any deviation from complete compliance
(07:58):
and agreement then and he would hong in on that. Yeah.
So that was the beginning of me learning to allowing
myself to even question anything. So I remember when we
first moved here. The first major thing that I changed
was how I dressed. And I remember talking to my
(08:20):
husband at the time and just saying, I, yo, I've
been considering wearing pants again. And he was like, go
for it, you know, and I said, well, I don't know,
and it was like, look, you do whatever you want
to do, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And so the first time I went shopping, I couldn't
even buy a pair of jeans like full linkkings. I
had to wear like a pair of capris, like not
denim like paki, you know. I mean it just like
I had to get there in increments.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Right, right. And at this point it wasn't like you're
her husband didn't disbelieve in God or Christianity altogether at
that point, right, It was just that that particular person
was not God's prophet in his mind. So were you
still looking for like a church home at that point.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
We did attend a couple of small groups, and you know,
it's really interesting. I used to think, oh, it was
the spirit of God guiding us and drawing us, you know,
And I've come to see it a little differently now
that energetically you attract things that are on the same
(09:40):
vibrational frequency as you. So we were attracted to and
attracted by people that were very similar to us. It
was quite obvious, how we believed from the way I dressed,
you know, I was always wearing dresses and skirts. So
we kind of got in with a group that was
similar to that, and that didn't last very long because
(10:02):
I started wearing pants and we were just kind of
feeling like, I don't know, it seemed a little higher control.
It was up brother Branham, So they followed William Brannam
and they would get together and listen to Brilliant Are
the Brandom tapes. So we went a couple of times
and then we were like yeah, no. And then they
(10:22):
found out that I was wearing pants. Well, I think
I called the man's wife and I just told her,
you know, if you see me around town, don't be shocked.
I'm gonna start wearing pants sometimes. And at first she
was like, well, you know whatever, I love you however
you dressed, sister. But when we didn't show up to
(10:45):
the first church meeting after that, then her husband said
to our friends who were also attending, oh, well, where's
he at buying his wife a new pair of pants?
As old men do outrageous, I know, right. So I
(11:11):
don't know if I answered the question that you were asking,
but we were still we were still believers and Christians,
and I remember saying, you know, whatever I end up
landing on as far as the church and organized religion,
I will just always love Jesus. Jesus will always be
my savior. And you know, that's that's what I clung
(11:36):
to for quite a few years after that because I
was afraid to let it go, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But you did start, You did start down that path
of questioning I do that. And did you resist that
at first or did you just kind of go with it?
Speaker 4 (11:58):
I resisted it. I mean, it was such a process
of deprogramming myself from the fear of you know, I mean,
I guess I probably would have at the time said
it was the fear of God, and the fear of
the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, you know what
I mean. So I was programmed with all of those scriptures.
What it really was was the fear of my dad,
(12:21):
a fear of what he would think of me, the
fear of complete and total rejection. Because by that point,
I think we had reconciled the group up there had dispersed.
You know, that's a whole other story. But uh so
I was kind of back in communication with my family,
(12:42):
and yeah, there was some fear around them knowing that
I don't fully believe what I was raised with. I
was questioning things, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, I mean I've found that probably Mattie too. Once
you start to pull on the thread, like once you
allow yourself to just start critically thinking, start questioning. But
it is that it is that huge hurdle that you
have to get over the fear of questioning and what
(13:21):
that means, you know. But once you can kind of
let your guard down on that, man, it's just it
feels like you almost can't control the unraveling at that point.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Now, once you start, it sort of takes on a
life of its own. And you know, I mean, to
be fair, they always did say in religious circles, well
it's a slippery slope. Yeah, so there is some truth
to that. But I you know, and I said to
somebody recently who said, well, if you're wrong. No, he said,
(13:57):
if I'm wrong, then oh well I was wrong and
there's no negative consequences. But if you're wrong, and I said,
you know what. I'm going to be frank with you.
I would rather be in hell than be in heaven
(14:18):
for eternity with a God who would do that to
the children that he claims to love. That's just the truth.
And whatever I believe about I believe in a higher power.
I believe in source in God, if you want to
use that term. I think it varies for many people.
(14:39):
But I just don't believe in the hyper authoritarian God
who's going to throw you in hell if you don't
believe in something. I just feel like any all powerful
being would not need No.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
It just feels like we're just applying like human characteristics
and human logic, and like the human reaction to being
rejected is anger, and we're applying that to a supreme
being that is supposed to be pure love, and that
(15:25):
just doesn't that it doesn't go together. It's like you said,
there's a lot of cognitive dissonance involved. I think in
believing that you have to.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
So true. And I you know, as I've as I
have gone down this path, I realize I am much
more loving than I have I ever was before. I'm
I'm much more accepting of people. I'm less judgmental. It's
like I have. I have acquired more love for myself
(15:57):
and it has allowed me to love my neighbor as myself.
I couldn't do that before because I didn't love myself.
I was a wretch, I was a worm. I was filthy,
you know, filthy rags, And how do you love yourself
and how do you love others? From that perspective, I
(16:18):
couldn't do it, you know. So I feel free. I
feel free to just be who I am, who the
Creator created me to be, and to love others exactly
as they were created. And I don't have to judge
anybody on their path. I mean, I have dear friends
and family who are still professing Christians, very religious some
(16:42):
of them, and I love them just as much as
I ever did. You know, like, I don't care what
you believe? Are you Are you a loving person? Do
you treat others with respect and care and compassion and empathy? Well,
I don't care what you believe. If that's that's a fruit,
that's good in my book.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Right, I agree with that. I think that's part of
what I learned as well, and the whole I think
I grew up hearing how scary it would be to
be an atheist or not. And I say when I
say atheist, I really just mean I understand what you're
talking about, you know, a source being a higher power,
(17:27):
and you could call that God, but typically in the
context of talking to anybody, we're talking about the God
of the Bible.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So so when I say that, that's what I mean.
But I always thought that was a scary thing, to
be an atheist. And oh my gosh, you have no
moral guardrails, and like, why would you be this kind, generous, loving,
empathetic person if you don't have God telling you how
(17:58):
to do that? And I have found the exact opposite,
just like you have that. No, it's like, actually, for me,
it feels like it's coming for from a more genuine,
deeper place inside me, just loving other fellow human beings
and understanding how flawed we all are, and and and
(18:22):
not like not being kind because I'm trying to either
a avoid this horrifyingly awful punishment of eternal torment or
you know, store treasures up in heaven or whatever. I
just feel like those those external things are not are
(18:45):
not genuine compared to what we find that is already
inside ourselves, I think at birth. You know, I just
really believe we already have everything that we need. We
just didn't we weren't how to tap into it or
recognize it.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
So true, and I feel like, you know, purity culture,
excuse me, has taken those principles and it's created this
dynamic between men and women based on the premise that
(19:24):
men are a certain way and they can't control themselves.
And I think that that's a fallacy. And then it's
put the onus on women to not be a stumbling
block and not be a temptation, and it's just like
this vicious cycle. And I don't think either is and
so I feel like it's done a complete disservice to
(19:45):
men and women. And I feel like it's almost harmed
boys more than girls to some degree, because they feel
like they are just these animals that can't control themselves,
and it's like their condition to believe that instead of
just knowing that these are normal urges and this is
(20:08):
how we navigate the dance between the masculine and the
feminine in respect and consent, and you know what I mean.
And so I feel like religion has doubled down on
the whole. You know, you're a filthy, sinner thing and
permeated society with purity culture, and oh my gosh, it's
(20:32):
just like it's so far reaching and I'm just doing
everything I can to help dismantle that.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, And it's nice when you think, you know, you
have daughters that you can show them a different a
different way. And I feel that too when I see
my middle child being confidence that I never had, not
being burdened by, uh, by those elements of purity culture,
(21:09):
even though I do think they're still permeated throughout our culture,
especially where we are like in the Bible Belt. But
when you think about like that upbringing and then you know,
obviously you were in that for quite some time in
your adult life, what are the things that stand out
(21:31):
the most you have talked about purity culture? So I
assume that's one. Like, for example, for me, you know,
the Lake of Fire, the Great Tribulation, you know, the
constant thread of demonic influence. Those are really big things
for me that I had to you know, reprocess as
(21:56):
I've gone through the healing process. So I'm curious, like,
what were your what we're your things?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yeah, the same, but the more fundamentalists, we became the
more judgment centric our Gospel God. So I feel like
a God of destruction, a God of wrath was put
more on a pedestal, and it does create that cognitive
(22:23):
dissonance because if you believe, if you're told that God
is love, but that he's wrathful, I mean, this is
just kind of a weird case in point. But in
the group that we were in Alaska, I was somewhat
of a scribe, and I operated in the gifts of
the spirit. We'd a wisdom word of knowledge, and I
(22:45):
kept track of the prophecies that would take place in
our church meetings, and so I had a destruction journal
like what I had a journal that I kept when
I listened to the news of all the bad things
that were happening in our country in the world, because
we were waiting for the destruction of America. That was
(23:05):
prophesied by what brother Branham, I mean, I don't know,
I don't know, and your wing of things worldwide Church
of God, what was prophesied there. But then even our
particular prophet specifically prophesied some destruction in America. So that
was really that really formed my worldview. So that and
(23:30):
then purity culture that was just so so damaging, and
then the just the hierarchical submission of women to men.
I mean, I remember a time in my mid twenties
when my dad started grooming my younger brother both of
them really they were three and six years younger than me,
(23:53):
to subdue me in order to prepare them for marriage
someday because they were going to subdue pife one day.
And so I was being groomed to submit to all
men in the form of my two younger brothers, and
they were being groomed to subdue women, and it was
very damaging to our relationships, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So yeah, and that goes back to your point about
how damaging it is for boys too, because we do
tend to focus on the damage to women in purity culture,
but you know, you are taking a young boy that has,
you know, their own set of emotions and sensitivities and
(24:37):
all of this stuff, and you're you're warping so much
of who they actually truly are. And I find that
to just be so that I have a soft spot,
I guess, because I have two sons. And then when
when I left, Maddie was really little and Michael was
(24:58):
little and I adored them, and just the thought of
you know, I remember them when they were little, and
and my own boys, and the thought of like molding
that into something you know, honestly grotesque to just be
told like you can't control yourself, but there are four
(25:20):
women have to do these things, and you know, and
then there are some men who aren't naturally inclined to
be control freaks, you know, I mean like our dad,
we feel We've talked about this so many times. He
just slid right into that role, like I think he
relished in it. But there are there are some that
(25:41):
never wanted to be dominating someone else and telling someone
else how to be and what to do, and yet
they're expected to do that in these groups with the
women in their lives. It's just it's so it's so awful.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
It is awful. I've had to really do a lot
of forgiveness work around pat because I felt like my
relationships with my brothers, who were very dear to me, Yeah, yeah,
were changed forever. And like, how do you undo that?
I don't know. I mean, you can, you can recognize it,
and you can, you know, forgive, but it fundamentally changes
(26:23):
the dynamic.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
It does, and they have their own work to do
so that you can both like come together equally as
equal counterparts.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
So and it's been beautiful for me to watch both
my brothers deconstruct this and unpack it. And yeah, you know,
they they've changed a lot, and I'm grateful. I'm grateful,
But you know, it's like that it had never happened
in the first place in some ways, you.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Know, right, I know, all of that for me really
engendered a sense of miss like distrust in men, and
I still deal with that and and I have to
remind myself of the men in my life that who
I know, who I can trust, you know what I mean.
(27:15):
It's just it's almost like it's so ingrained, it's just
hard to override. And I know a lot of that
came from the church and directly like our father, Yeah,
he didn't want his girls to trust any men because
like he wanted to control what happened there. But then,
(27:36):
but then that has had long term effects, you know,
where I've had to really grapple with my feelings towards
men because it's not congruent my like, my strong feelings
are not congruent with what I know about some of
the men in my life, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Is so true. I mean, it's that way, my relationship
with men, with even the world. I remember when I
first came out of high control religion and I was
starting to navigate just the world, my relationship to the
world and worldly people. Right. Did you ever see the
movie The Village? Wait?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Was that The m Night Shyamalan Or yes, yeah I did.
It's been a long time.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah, well it's been a long time for me too,
But that really changed me when I saw that. And
at the very end, when the young woman gets to
the you know, she gets to the through the through
the forest, and she encounters the guy you know, guarding
the perimeter of whatever the park is, and then he
gets through the penicillin, and you know, she's blind, so
of course she can't see him. She just hears him
(28:44):
and she says, I hear kindness in your voice. I
did not expect that, and I just broke and I
was like, yes, because I was conditioned my whole life
to believe that anyone outside of my beliefs and my
(29:05):
religious construct was evil and hurtful and out to do
me ill. And when I came out and so many
people helped us. I mean we were we were destitute,
we didn't have jobs. We moved to this new town
sight unseeing with two little children, and then the people
that showed up for us would love and care and help.
(29:26):
And I was just like, oh my gosh, I liked
like And then I saw that movie and I was
just like, yeah, it's it's I And I understand they
wanted to protect they wanted to protect their children right
because they'd been harmed, but they used a false method.
They used something that wasn't true in order to keep
(29:50):
them safe, and it didn't work. It backfired. And so yeah,
it just made me really grateful to be to be
getting free and being able to navigate the world for
myself and learn to trust my gut to guide me,
and you know, because I was never trained to trust myself.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So did you ever read that book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, No,
it's it's really excellent, but I I think it was Oprah.
Oprah recommended that every woman needs to read this and
and uh, it is about your gut instinct and actually
(30:28):
what's physical physiologically going on in your body and in
your brain and all of these like little micro observations
that are happening there, that are even in the subconscious
and and what that really is. And that was actually
helpful for me when I was trying to learn how
(30:48):
to do that after never doing that my entire life,
or feeling that feeling and ignoring it and bypassing it.
So that really helpful. If anybody listening wants to check.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
That out, I'm gonna have to look that up. That
sounds great.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, yeah, it is really good. Okay, so this might
be totally off topic, but when you first emailed us,
you did mention the FBI being involved in one of
these groups, Like, I don't I don't want to end
this conversation before we talk about that.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
Yeah, that was the Ralph Stare group.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So okay.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
After we moved here, I got to be part of
a Facebook group of people who used to be a
part of that mold or H and I it came
to my attention that the FBI was investigating him, and
so I contacted them as part of my healing process
(31:51):
just to say, you know, I was part of this group.
I'm happy to share what I witnessed. I was never
a victim, but I was there for three and a
half years as an adult woman. And so they came
to the town that I live in and interviewed me
for a couple of hours. An agent and then she
was I don't know, she wasn't an FBI agent, but
(32:14):
she was like an emotional counselor or something, a therapist,
And they interviewed me, and they had told me that
they were going to call me to testify, not because
I was a victim, but because I could articulate the culture.
And turns out that he passed before that could ever
(32:36):
take place, at which I was a little bit relieved about,
to be honest.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
But yeah, there was some here that would have been hard.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Yeah. Yeah, I think there was a documentary being worked
on about that story. I don't know whatever happened to it.
I heard from somebody else that used to be there,
but yeah, that was quiet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, I had heard of him.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
The Last Day Prophet of God.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah. I'm not sure why. I'd have to like look
that up and see if it sparked any memories, but
I do remember knowing about him.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Yeah, he was pretty well known in short wave circles.
He was in Walterboro, South Carolina. That's where we lived.
We were three and a half years in that group
and never left the compound. And it was it was
quite I mean, if I wanted a new underwear, I
had to tell his wife and they went to Walmart
kind of thing. We had a clothing room where we
(33:40):
just rotated clothing. We grew almost all of our food cooked.
I cooked for seventy five to one hundred people a
couple of times a week. Yeah, it was. It was interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
That was during your time in Alaska.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
That was before Alaska, So that was like ninety five
or ninety six to ninety nine, and then we moved
to Alaska in the fall of ninety nine, right before
y Twok.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
So you were literally in a compound, unable to leave.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Unable to leave, I mean, well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I mean you're not supposed to leave.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Yeah, no, I mean I right, I mean if you do,
then you're not part of the group. And they made
it so that pretty much all of our needs were met,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
So right, like you didn't need to leave.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I didn't need to go grocery shopping. I didn't need
to go to the bank. I didn't need to you know,
I didn't have a job. We worked on the farm. Yeah,
we went to church there. We built a tabernacle there
and stayed there. When we first moved there, they had
church on another location that they called the campground, and
we would take a school bus to Friday night and Saturday.
(35:01):
We observed the Sabbath during those years, so we had
Sabbath service. But then eventually they built tabernacle at the
farm and we never left or anything.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Wow, how many people do you think we're there?
Speaker 4 (35:17):
I fluctuated between seventy five and one hundred, I believe, Okay, yeah,
including children.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Wow. Wow, Yeah, that's so much like your entire life
was kind of marked by all of these different high
control groups like that. I thought we had a lot
with Maddie was involved in I guess three. I was
(35:47):
involved in a couple, but my goodness, Yeah, is there like,
is there anything else about about the upbringing or any
any pivotal moments or anything that you wanted to share,
because I don't want to miss anything if there was
something like you weren't that was important to you.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
You know. I just and thinking over my life and
what I would say to people who find themselves either
in a high control situation, whether it's a family or
a church group, or are coming out and beginning the
healing process, or at any point of the healing process.
(36:32):
You know, there are several things that I've learned that
I just I want to tell everyone, like, you can
trust yourself. Yeah, that that ability to know what's right
for you is innate to every human and you can
trust that and don't allow anyone to tell you that
(36:55):
you don't know what's best for you. Even if you
make mistakes, Even if you make a choice that you
later think, ah, maybe that wasn't right, you still made
it and you can own it. And you know, just
be your authentic self. Like if you go somewhere and
you're with people that you cannot be who you truly
(37:16):
are and they don't celebrate you for who you are,
that's not where you belong. And you know, the medicine
that I found has been in my ability to to
process this and begin to speak my truth and to
(37:37):
tell my story. There's so much medicine in that for me,
and to sit in spaces where people hold space for
me and where it's safe. And I just always tell
people be as vulnerable as you are safe to be.
Because there was so much healing in that and usually
what I find when I'm vulnerable and I share my story,
(38:00):
it gives other people permission to also be vulnerable and
tell their story. And I don't think there's really any
way to heal outside of that that ability to be
who you are and tell your story.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
So I agree, you have to put you have to
put that into the light, and then the shame dissipates
and you find strength. It's just really hard that first step.
I know that's tough for a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Yeah, I mean even coming on this podcast for me
was like, I it was so funny how many times
it got postponed the recording, and yeah, every time I said, Okay,
there's another layer. And it's like the whole healing process
is like layers of an ongeon and I peel back
another layer. And there were several things that I came
(38:52):
up against in myself at the thought of telling my
story on a more public forum, and yeah, I had
to sit with it and I had to work through it,
and I had to you know, deconstruct that and figure out, Okay,
where is this coming from, and tell myself the truth
and heal that. And so it's just so valuable.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, So, as you've gone through this healing process, are
there any specific things that worked for you that you
might recommend to other people. M.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Yeah, So I did em d R and that really
helped me to reframe some of my trauma in savor
places I did. I practiced, which is the four phrases
(39:51):
I'm sorry, please, forgive me, thank you, I love you.
And that was really good not only for me in
my relationship to other people, but also to myself to
forgive myself to you know, and speaking to my inner
child or the iterations of myself that were not as
strong as I find myself today. So I actually used
(40:15):
to sing that in a to a little tune to myself.
I found that really healing sitting circle with other women
has been hugely healing for me. Just being able to share,
like to feel into my body what am I feeling?
(40:36):
Where do I feel this in my body? Yeah? And uh,
just to be and feel and then and then to
be able to express that to other people in a
safe space that hold space for that and honor and
validate me. That's just been really healing. And I actually
(40:59):
did MDMA once with a therapist and that was huge
for me. I mean The thing I found about that
experience was so you know, I didn't even drink alcohol
until I was twenty one years old, never had any
experience with THHC until I was in my forties. So
anything that expands my mind and allows me to think
(41:22):
outside of this little box that I was conditioned to
live inside in my mind has been really healing for
me because it's allowed me to expand the things that
I even consider. So when I did MDMA, I found
(41:43):
myself verbilizing my path, my journey, and I started back
at childhood and all of these traumatic experiences that I
went through. I was telling this story to my therapist,
and what I found was I had this concept of
myself that I was very weak and that I never
(42:04):
had my own voice and that I never was strong.
And what I saw in reliving that was the times
that I did speak up for myself and the times
that I did stand in my own strength, and it
just refrained everything for me because I hadn't remembered those things.
(42:25):
I had this concept of myself that I was weak
and that I was always controlled, and it just wasn't true.
And what I saw was I showed as much strength
as it was safe for me to show and all
of those things about me are still there. I maintained
(42:46):
that through my life, even in the traumas, and now
I'm just free to fully be that with expression. Yeah,
and then then the whole sense of just that I
am love. I felt that so much throughout my whole body. Yeah.
It was just a really beautiful experience and I found
(43:07):
it very Healum.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
I love that I've looked into not as much M
D M A, but you know, psilocybin, ketamine, those types. Yeah,
and and and I do love the idea of the
expansiveness that it seems to give people and the perspective
(43:32):
on their own experiences that maybe they can't fully have
when they're just you know, normal in their body. So
it sounds like the M D M A was really
powerful for you, like a powerful step. And I think
also importantly you had a therapist guiding you, right.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
Yeah, I wasn't you know, at a party or concert,
right right?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I mean those are the that's the only context I've
even thought about any of these things in is like
definitely would want with a trained therapist who can really
guide you so you can get the best therapeutic effect
of that. Yeah, that's awesome and also EMDR is a
(44:22):
really helpful I've done that as well.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah, but in top therapy, I did some somatic therapy,
just releasing things for my body because we do trap
traumas in our bodies. So yeah, done tapping, you know,
I mean just all the things shaking. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah. Have you done any breath work.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
Yes, I have. I have not, so I had an
opportunity recently and I couldn't I couldn't go. But I
want to look more into that because I feel like
that has an ability to what is it released the
d MT without any substances and has really changed the
way that you, uh interact with yourself and your past
(45:08):
and your traumas. So yeah, have you done it? Yes?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I I did holotropic breath work with a group and
it I didn't know what it was. We had just
I think we had done a meditation before and then
we went into this breathwork class and I uh, the
(45:37):
instructor encouraged us to get into any type of you know,
yoga position that felt comfortable, and I was in child
post and and we were doing this rhythmic breathing where
you're really kind of hyperventilating, you know, and I was
(46:01):
like completely taken aback by the emotions that came up,
Like it felt overwhelming. And I guess that was when
I went into child's posts, because I was in I
was in another post and then I like went down
into that and I immediately started crying and I was like,
what is going on? Like I did not understand the
(46:26):
therapeutic effect that it can have. And then of course
I did a deep dive after that and was like,
you know, ordering books and like what is this? And
I want to do this again? You know, yes, And
in the group it was only ten of us. I
think several other people were having similar experiences. And when
(46:48):
it was over, I know one girl left the room.
She was she just had to, like she was crying
really hard, you know, And that is really I think
an interesting thing about sematic experiencing is that like you
are able to kind of process some of those emotions
(47:09):
and get them out of your body without having to
go through every single detail in you know, talk therapy,
because it's not necessarily easy for everyone.
Speaker 4 (47:19):
No, it's not. And you know, it reminds me of
of a session that I did somatic therapy with the
therapist that I did talk therapy with who I had
bunch the other. Yeah. Yeah, I remember the first time
she had me on the massage table and she was,
you know, just touching lightly various parts of my body,
(47:40):
and I felt very safe with her. We ended up
becoming very good friends. But I remember, you know, it
was all good, and I was breathing through it, and
then she got up to near my head and she
put her just like her binker tips, like right on
my heart, and I lost it. I mean, I had
been doing fine out to that point, and then I
(48:01):
just started sobbing, and she just stood there and I
just sobbed it out. I mean, and I don't even
know what I was releasing at that point, but it
was something and my body knew. And yeah, I just
think it's so valuable. I mean, I think we spend
our whole lives trying to repress our emotions, and really
(48:23):
there's so much cleansing and healing in our tears and
our ability to I mean, sometimes I'll just wail. I
will just allow myself, like I'll put on a movie
that I know is going to make me cry and
I don't even really know, Like this is not even
necessarily a connection in my mind to the movie and
what I've experienced, but right right, it will just start
(48:45):
that flow of emotion for me, and I will, especially
if my children aren't home, I will just allow myself
to wail it out. And oh my gosh, that's just
so feeling.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Yeah, I mean, how do you feel after that?
Speaker 4 (49:00):
Just like clean, Like I had a soul bath, a
soul shower, you know. Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Yeah, I've done that too with music, Like it's certain,
you know, certain songs will just get me. And sometimes
I'm yeah, I'm feeling melancholy and I don't really know why,
and I'm like, I think I just need to get
something out, So let's start. Let's start the tears.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
Actually saying I'm having a bad day. I need to
listen to some wham.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, that's it, honestly, Okay. One song that really spoke
to me was Taylor Swift's Tears Ricochet, And it's the
lyrics I connected so much, like from my experience with
our dad and growing up and losing the family and uh,
(49:56):
and I cannot listen to that without crying. It just
it's like a gut punch. So I avoid it unless
I want to cry and then I can put it on.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Yeah. I have songs like that too, and I'm very
connected to music. Music moves me. It's part of my upbringing,
it's part of who I am, It's in my fabric,
and so yeah, I use music that way a lot. Yeah,
just let her rip. Just cried out.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Oh gosh, Okay, is there anything else that we like you?
Speaker 4 (50:33):
All?
Speaker 1 (50:33):
The things that you said about healing here at the
end is part of what we were going to ask
you as the closing question. So you kind of already
did that now, which is great. I don't know if
you have any like parting words for people who are
going through their own healing journey, or maybe he even
(50:54):
haven't started yet, but that could be helpful.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
Well. Yes, and it comes to what else I wanted
to say to the two of you, and that is
just how grateful I am for podcasts like yours, and
to yours in particular, because I so resonated with your
story because of the aspect of a family cult. It
wasn't just high control religion. It was our family structure
(51:22):
that was so controlling, and so for you to be
here and tell your story and have the guests that
you do. I literally have listened to your entire library
more than once. I mean just this morning, I was
listening to the most recent one you did, and it's
(51:43):
taken me to other podcasts, and I literally spend most
of my time listening to podcasts about cult recovery, etc.
And so that's what I usually tell people. Listen to
some podcasts, see where you find yourself and other people's stories,
and let it empower and embolden you to tell your
own story and on your own healing journey. And I
(52:05):
just find so much inspiration and ideas and just solidarity.
I mean, just knowing I am not the only one
that lived a story like this, and that you can
come out the other side and not stay in a
place of victimhood and find your power and find your
voice and be victorious in your life. And you don't
(52:30):
have to let that dictate what the rest of your
life looks like. You can be who you were came
here to be.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yes so powerful, So thank you, oh, thank you so much.
This is really a great talk. I love talking about
all things healing, and I feel like that will be
really helpful for our listeners as well. So thank you.
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (53:00):
If you liked this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 4 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
He's speaking through me the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
The veil is the chamber.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In their life.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
God is going to be moving vitally and bot like.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Bossing judgment.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cult next Door Podcast.
Before we jump into part two with Luna, just very quickly,
want to give those reminders go follow us on our
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(01:23):
to probably over the next few weeks play some of
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or at the top of the episode description for the
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We want to hear from you. Also, our Double Portion
Club shout outs. Can't start an episode without giving those
(01:44):
Shandan Chase, Heather Bartlett, Carla and a new one Julia B.
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(02:08):
had quite a few people sign up for the five
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so thank you all very much for doing that. And now,
without any further delays. Let's jump into part two with Luna.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Oh my gosh, So when you left the church in Alaska,
your parents stayed right, Yeah, how was that like, is
that when a rift started where you kind of started
the separation process.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Yes, So my husband wrote a letter to the group there.
It was six pages and it basically used the scriptures
to spell out, you know, we're off guys. Even using
the scriptures, we're in a mess here. We're following a profit.
It's very clear in scriptures what to do when a
(02:58):
man prophesies in it and come to pass, you need
to follow nor fear him. Like it was so clear.
He spilled it out very clearly, and he was like,
we are so sorry for our part in building this,
and we repent and we won't be coming back. And
at that point we received a letter. But now we
(03:19):
are Argentina. Okay, we're like ten thousand miles away from Alaska.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Oh, that's where you moved.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Where we were. We went on a we went on
a mission trip to Argentina.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Oh okay.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Now I have to say that was the I think
that was the way that his soul contrived to get
us out, and I knew I would have never said
it at the time, I would have never even allowed
myself to think it or speak it. I knew that
was our ticket out, and so we uh, we went
(03:55):
down to Minister to Win Widows and Orphans, and it
was a place where the man that my dad had
partnered with to start this group, he was the prophet
of the group. My dad was the pastor of the group.
He had been there before, so I think it was
just his way of picking something that would have been
(04:20):
approved by the leadership. And he was like, Okay, the
Lord told me that we're supposed to go on a
mission trip to Argentina, and so he saved all summer,
worked all summer long, saved up money, and then the
four of us left in the fall of twenty eleven Argentina,
and we planned to be down there a year. By
(04:42):
the time he had deconstructed the situation and we had
decided we were ready to go, it was about five
and a half six months and yeah, so we decided, well,
we're not going to go back to Alaska, and we
told them that and they basically sent us back like
a your four line, we accept your apology. Next time
(05:06):
you have a word from the Lord, feel free to
come speaking in person, and we will help you pack
your things. And then all the brothers signed it, so
that was the response we got. I knew at that
point we were shunned. And I remember sitting on a
swing in Cordoba, Argentina, at a park, watching my little
(05:28):
girls play on the playground and weeping because I knew
that everything I knew, everyone I loved was dawn and
I would not have that again. And we were alone
in the world. I mean, he and I and our
two little children.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So your sisters had to shun you as well at
that point, so you lost them too, Wow, Yeah I did.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
It was very lonely. And you know what, my dad
always used to use a phrase and I said all
the time, I wouldn't trade it for a million bucks,
and I wouldn't give you a nickel for any more
of it. Like, Yeah, it made me who I am.
It made me strong. It forced me to look at
myself and my beliefs and who am I and what
(06:19):
do I believe fundamentally, And so for that I am
eternally grateful. And you know, the last twelve years has
been a process of me just journeying through everything that
I've encountered in my past and you know, deconstructing many things, unlearning, deprogramming,
(06:48):
and you know, finding myself.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Did it start that deprogramming and unraveling? Did that start
when you when you guys left, when you made that
decision when you were in Argentina and then you came back.
Was that the beginning?
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Well, I mean it was the beginning of my allowing
myself to think critically in question things. Up to that point,
I had been afraid my entire life to have my
own thoughts because somehow my dad always proted it out.
And you know, what I've learned about that personality type
is that they're very tuned into energy and other people's
(07:33):
interaction with them. They can tell are you with them?
Are you pulling back? And so I think that was
his way of knowing thinking that the Holy Spirit was
speaking to him. He was just very tuned into was
I on the same page or not? Was I with him?
And so anytime he sensed any deviation from complete compliance
(07:58):
and agreement then and he would hong in on that. Yeah.
So that was the beginning of me learning to allowing
myself to even question anything. So I remember when we
first moved here. The first major thing that I changed
was how I dressed. And I remember talking to my
(08:20):
husband at the time and just saying, I, yo, I've
been considering wearing pants again. And he was like, go
for it, you know, and I said, well, I don't know,
and it was like, look, you do whatever you want
to do, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And so the first time I went shopping, I couldn't
even buy a pair of jeans like full linkkings. I
had to wear like a pair of capris, like not
denim like paki, you know. I mean it just like
I had to get there in increments.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Right, right. And at this point it wasn't like you're
her husband didn't disbelieve in God or Christianity altogether at
that point, right, It was just that that particular person
was not God's prophet in his mind. So were you
still looking for like a church home at that point.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
We did attend a couple of small groups, and you know,
it's really interesting. I used to think, oh, it was
the spirit of God guiding us and drawing us, you know,
And I've come to see it a little differently now
that energetically you attract things that are on the same
(09:40):
vibrational frequency as you. So we were attracted to and
attracted by people that were very similar to us. It
was quite obvious, how we believed from the way I dressed,
you know, I was always wearing dresses and skirts. So
we kind of got in with a group that was
similar to that, and that didn't last very long because
(10:02):
I started wearing pants and we were just kind of
feeling like, I don't know, it seemed a little higher control.
It was up brother Branham, So they followed William Brannam
and they would get together and listen to Brilliant Are
the Brandom tapes. So we went a couple of times
and then we were like yeah, no. And then they
(10:22):
found out that I was wearing pants. Well, I think
I called the man's wife and I just told her,
you know, if you see me around town, don't be shocked.
I'm gonna start wearing pants sometimes. And at first she
was like, well, you know whatever, I love you however
you dressed, sister. But when we didn't show up to
(10:45):
the first church meeting after that, then her husband said
to our friends who were also attending, oh, well, where's
he at buying his wife a new pair of pants?
As old men do outrageous, I know, right. So I
(11:11):
don't know if I answered the question that you were asking,
but we were still we were still believers and Christians,
and I remember saying, you know, whatever I end up
landing on as far as the church and organized religion,
I will just always love Jesus. Jesus will always be
my savior. And you know, that's that's what I clung
(11:36):
to for quite a few years after that because I
was afraid to let it go, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But you did start, You did start down that path
of questioning I do that. And did you resist that
at first or did you just kind of go with it?
Speaker 4 (11:58):
I resisted it. I mean, it was such a process
of deprogramming myself from the fear of you know, I mean,
I guess I probably would have at the time said
it was the fear of God, and the fear of
the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, you know what
I mean. So I was programmed with all of those scriptures.
What it really was was the fear of my dad,
(12:21):
a fear of what he would think of me, the
fear of complete and total rejection. Because by that point,
I think we had reconciled the group up there had dispersed.
You know, that's a whole other story. But uh so
I was kind of back in communication with my family,
(12:42):
and yeah, there was some fear around them knowing that
I don't fully believe what I was raised with. I
was questioning things, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, I mean I've found that probably Mattie too. Once
you start to pull on the thread, like once you
allow yourself to just start critically thinking, start questioning. But
it is that it is that huge hurdle that you
have to get over the fear of questioning and what
(13:21):
that means, you know. But once you can kind of
let your guard down on that, man, it's just it
feels like you almost can't control the unraveling at that point.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Now, once you start, it sort of takes on a
life of its own. And you know, I mean, to
be fair, they always did say in religious circles, well
it's a slippery slope. Yeah, so there is some truth
to that. But I you know, and I said to
somebody recently who said, well, if you're wrong. No, he said,
(13:57):
if I'm wrong, then oh well I was wrong and
there's no negative consequences. But if you're wrong, and I said,
you know what. I'm going to be frank with you.
I would rather be in hell than be in heaven
(14:18):
for eternity with a God who would do that to
the children that he claims to love. That's just the truth.
And whatever I believe about I believe in a higher power.
I believe in source in God, if you want to
use that term. I think it varies for many people.
(14:39):
But I just don't believe in the hyper authoritarian God
who's going to throw you in hell if you don't
believe in something. I just feel like any all powerful
being would not need No.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
It just feels like we're just applying like human characteristics
and human logic, and like the human reaction to being
rejected is anger, and we're applying that to a supreme
being that is supposed to be pure love, and that
(15:25):
just doesn't that it doesn't go together. It's like you said,
there's a lot of cognitive dissonance involved. I think in
believing that you have to.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
So true. And I you know, as I've as I
have gone down this path, I realize I am much
more loving than I have I ever was before. I'm
I'm much more accepting of people. I'm less judgmental. It's
like I have. I have acquired more love for myself
(15:57):
and it has allowed me to love my neighbor as myself.
I couldn't do that before because I didn't love myself.
I was a wretch, I was a worm. I was filthy,
you know, filthy rags, And how do you love yourself
and how do you love others? From that perspective, I
(16:18):
couldn't do it, you know. So I feel free. I
feel free to just be who I am, who the
Creator created me to be, and to love others exactly
as they were created. And I don't have to judge
anybody on their path. I mean, I have dear friends
and family who are still professing Christians, very religious some
(16:42):
of them, and I love them just as much as
I ever did. You know, like, I don't care what
you believe? Are you Are you a loving person? Do
you treat others with respect and care and compassion and empathy? Well,
I don't care what you believe. If that's that's a fruit,
that's good in my book.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Right, I agree with that. I think that's part of
what I learned as well, and the whole I think
I grew up hearing how scary it would be to
be an atheist or not. And I say when I
say atheist, I really just mean I understand what you're
talking about, you know, a source being a higher power,
(17:27):
and you could call that God, but typically in the
context of talking to anybody, we're talking about the God
of the Bible.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
So so when I say that, that's what I mean.
But I always thought that was a scary thing, to
be an atheist. And oh my gosh, you have no
moral guardrails, and like, why would you be this kind, generous, loving,
empathetic person if you don't have God telling you how
(17:58):
to do that? And I have found the exact opposite,
just like you have that. No, it's like, actually, for me,
it feels like it's coming for from a more genuine,
deeper place inside me, just loving other fellow human beings
and understanding how flawed we all are, and and and
(18:22):
not like not being kind because I'm trying to either
a avoid this horrifyingly awful punishment of eternal torment or
you know, store treasures up in heaven or whatever. I
just feel like those those external things are not are
(18:45):
not genuine compared to what we find that is already
inside ourselves, I think at birth. You know, I just
really believe we already have everything that we need. We
just didn't we weren't how to tap into it or
recognize it.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
So true, and I feel like, you know, purity culture,
excuse me, has taken those principles and it's created this
dynamic between men and women based on the premise that
(19:24):
men are a certain way and they can't control themselves.
And I think that that's a fallacy. And then it's
put the onus on women to not be a stumbling
block and not be a temptation, and it's just like
this vicious cycle. And I don't think either is and
so I feel like it's done a complete disservice to
(19:45):
men and women. And I feel like it's almost harmed
boys more than girls to some degree, because they feel
like they are just these animals that can't control themselves,
and it's like their condition to believe that instead of
just knowing that these are normal urges and this is
(20:08):
how we navigate the dance between the masculine and the
feminine in respect and consent, and you know what I mean.
And so I feel like religion has doubled down on
the whole. You know, you're a filthy, sinner thing and
permeated society with purity culture, and oh my gosh, it's
(20:32):
just like it's so far reaching and I'm just doing
everything I can to help dismantle that.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, And it's nice when you think, you know, you
have daughters that you can show them a different a
different way. And I feel that too when I see
my middle child being confidence that I never had, not
being burdened by, uh, by those elements of purity culture,
(21:09):
even though I do think they're still permeated throughout our culture,
especially where we are like in the Bible Belt. But
when you think about like that upbringing and then you know,
obviously you were in that for quite some time in
your adult life, what are the things that stand out
(21:31):
the most you have talked about purity culture? So I
assume that's one. Like, for example, for me, you know,
the Lake of Fire, the Great Tribulation, you know, the
constant thread of demonic influence. Those are really big things
for me that I had to you know, reprocess as
(21:56):
I've gone through the healing process. So I'm curious, like,
what were your what we're your things?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yeah, the same, but the more fundamentalists, we became the
more judgment centric our Gospel God. So I feel like
a God of destruction, a God of wrath was put
more on a pedestal, and it does create that cognitive
(22:23):
dissonance because if you believe, if you're told that God
is love, but that he's wrathful, I mean, this is
just kind of a weird case in point. But in
the group that we were in Alaska, I was somewhat
of a scribe, and I operated in the gifts of
the spirit. We'd a wisdom word of knowledge, and I
(22:45):
kept track of the prophecies that would take place in
our church meetings, and so I had a destruction journal
like what I had a journal that I kept when
I listened to the news of all the bad things
that were happening in our country in the world, because
we were waiting for the destruction of America. That was
(23:05):
prophesied by what brother Branham, I mean, I don't know,
I don't know, and your wing of things worldwide Church
of God, what was prophesied there. But then even our
particular prophet specifically prophesied some destruction in America. So that
was really that really formed my worldview. So that and
(23:30):
then purity culture that was just so so damaging, and
then the just the hierarchical submission of women to men.
I mean, I remember a time in my mid twenties
when my dad started grooming my younger brother both of
them really they were three and six years younger than me,
(23:53):
to subdue me in order to prepare them for marriage
someday because they were going to subdue pife one day.
And so I was being groomed to submit to all
men in the form of my two younger brothers, and
they were being groomed to subdue women, and it was
very damaging to our relationships, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So yeah, and that goes back to your point about
how damaging it is for boys too, because we do
tend to focus on the damage to women in purity culture,
but you know, you are taking a young boy that has,
you know, their own set of emotions and sensitivities and
(24:37):
all of this stuff, and you're you're warping so much
of who they actually truly are. And I find that
to just be so that I have a soft spot,
I guess, because I have two sons. And then when
when I left, Maddie was really little and Michael was
(24:58):
little and I adored them, and just the thought of
you know, I remember them when they were little, and
and my own boys, and the thought of like molding
that into something you know, honestly grotesque to just be
told like you can't control yourself, but there are four
(25:20):
women have to do these things, and you know, and
then there are some men who aren't naturally inclined to
be control freaks, you know, I mean like our dad,
we feel We've talked about this so many times. He
just slid right into that role, like I think he
relished in it. But there are there are some that
(25:41):
never wanted to be dominating someone else and telling someone
else how to be and what to do, and yet
they're expected to do that in these groups with the
women in their lives. It's just it's so it's so awful.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
It is awful. I've had to really do a lot
of forgiveness work around pat because I felt like my
relationships with my brothers, who were very dear to me, Yeah, yeah,
were changed forever. And like, how do you undo that?
I don't know. I mean, you can, you can recognize it,
and you can, you know, forgive, but it fundamentally changes
(26:23):
the dynamic.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
It does, and they have their own work to do
so that you can both like come together equally as
equal counterparts.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
So and it's been beautiful for me to watch both
my brothers deconstruct this and unpack it. And yeah, you know,
they they've changed a lot, and I'm grateful. I'm grateful,
But you know, it's like that it had never happened
in the first place in some ways, you.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Know, right, I know, all of that for me really
engendered a sense of miss like distrust in men, and
I still deal with that and and I have to
remind myself of the men in my life that who
I know, who I can trust, you know what I mean.
(27:15):
It's just it's almost like it's so ingrained, it's just
hard to override. And I know a lot of that
came from the church and directly like our father, Yeah,
he didn't want his girls to trust any men because
like he wanted to control what happened there. But then,
(27:36):
but then that has had long term effects, you know,
where I've had to really grapple with my feelings towards
men because it's not congruent my like, my strong feelings
are not congruent with what I know about some of
the men in my life, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Is so true. I mean, it's that way, my relationship
with men, with even the world. I remember when I
first came out of high control religion and I was
starting to navigate just the world, my relationship to the
world and worldly people. Right. Did you ever see the
movie The Village? Wait?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Was that The m Night Shyamalan Or yes, yeah I did.
It's been a long time.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah, well it's been a long time for me too,
But that really changed me when I saw that. And
at the very end, when the young woman gets to
the you know, she gets to the through the through
the forest, and she encounters the guy you know, guarding
the perimeter of whatever the park is, and then he
gets through the penicillin, and you know, she's blind, so
of course she can't see him. She just hears him
(28:44):
and she says, I hear kindness in your voice. I
did not expect that, and I just broke and I
was like, yes, because I was conditioned my whole life
to believe that anyone outside of my beliefs and my
(29:05):
religious construct was evil and hurtful and out to do
me ill. And when I came out and so many
people helped us. I mean we were we were destitute,
we didn't have jobs. We moved to this new town
sight unseeing with two little children, and then the people
that showed up for us would love and care and help.
(29:26):
And I was just like, oh my gosh, I liked
like And then I saw that movie and I was
just like, yeah, it's it's I And I understand they
wanted to protect they wanted to protect their children right
because they'd been harmed, but they used a false method.
They used something that wasn't true in order to keep
(29:50):
them safe, and it didn't work. It backfired. And so yeah,
it just made me really grateful to be to be
getting free and being able to navigate the world for
myself and learn to trust my gut to guide me,
and you know, because I was never trained to trust myself.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So did you ever read that book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, No,
it's it's really excellent, but I I think it was Oprah.
Oprah recommended that every woman needs to read this and
and uh, it is about your gut instinct and actually
(30:28):
what's physical physiologically going on in your body and in
your brain and all of these like little micro observations
that are happening there, that are even in the subconscious
and and what that really is. And that was actually
helpful for me when I was trying to learn how
(30:48):
to do that after never doing that my entire life,
or feeling that feeling and ignoring it and bypassing it.
So that really helpful. If anybody listening wants to check.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
That out, I'm gonna have to look that up. That
sounds great.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, yeah, it is really good. Okay, so this might
be totally off topic, but when you first emailed us,
you did mention the FBI being involved in one of
these groups, Like, I don't I don't want to end
this conversation before we talk about that.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
Yeah, that was the Ralph Stare group.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So okay.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
After we moved here, I got to be part of
a Facebook group of people who used to be a
part of that mold or H and I it came
to my attention that the FBI was investigating him, and
so I contacted them as part of my healing process
(31:51):
just to say, you know, I was part of this group.
I'm happy to share what I witnessed. I was never
a victim, but I was there for three and a
half years as an adult woman. And so they came
to the town that I live in and interviewed me
for a couple of hours. An agent and then she
was I don't know, she wasn't an FBI agent, but
(32:14):
she was like an emotional counselor or something, a therapist,
And they interviewed me, and they had told me that
they were going to call me to testify, not because
I was a victim, but because I could articulate the culture.
And turns out that he passed before that could ever
(32:36):
take place, at which I was a little bit relieved about,
to be honest.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
But yeah, there was some here that would have been hard.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Yeah. Yeah, I think there was a documentary being worked
on about that story. I don't know whatever happened to it.
I heard from somebody else that used to be there,
but yeah, that was quiet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, I had heard of him.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
The Last Day Prophet of God.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah. I'm not sure why. I'd have to like look
that up and see if it sparked any memories, but
I do remember knowing about him.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Yeah, he was pretty well known in short wave circles.
He was in Walterboro, South Carolina. That's where we lived.
We were three and a half years in that group
and never left the compound. And it was it was
quite I mean, if I wanted a new underwear, I
had to tell his wife and they went to Walmart
kind of thing. We had a clothing room where we
(33:40):
just rotated clothing. We grew almost all of our food cooked.
I cooked for seventy five to one hundred people a
couple of times a week. Yeah, it was. It was interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
That was during your time in Alaska.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
That was before Alaska, So that was like ninety five
or ninety six to ninety nine, and then we moved
to Alaska in the fall of ninety nine, right before
y Twok.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
So you were literally in a compound, unable to leave.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Unable to leave, I mean, well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I mean you're not supposed to leave.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Yeah, no, I mean I right, I mean if you do,
then you're not part of the group. And they made
it so that pretty much all of our needs were met,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
So right, like you didn't need to leave.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I didn't need to go grocery shopping. I didn't need
to go to the bank. I didn't need to you know,
I didn't have a job. We worked on the farm. Yeah,
we went to church there. We built a tabernacle there
and stayed there. When we first moved there, they had
church on another location that they called the campground, and
we would take a school bus to Friday night and Saturday.
(35:01):
We observed the Sabbath during those years, so we had
Sabbath service. But then eventually they built tabernacle at the
farm and we never left or anything.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Wow, how many people do you think we're there?
Speaker 4 (35:17):
I fluctuated between seventy five and one hundred, I believe, Okay, yeah,
including children.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Wow. Wow, Yeah, that's so much like your entire life
was kind of marked by all of these different high
control groups like that. I thought we had a lot
with Maddie was involved in I guess three. I was
(35:47):
involved in a couple, but my goodness, Yeah, is there like,
is there anything else about about the upbringing or any
any pivotal moments or anything that you wanted to share,
because I don't want to miss anything if there was
something like you weren't that was important to you.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
You know. I just and thinking over my life and
what I would say to people who find themselves either
in a high control situation, whether it's a family or
a church group, or are coming out and beginning the
healing process, or at any point of the healing process.
(36:32):
You know, there are several things that I've learned that
I just I want to tell everyone, like, you can
trust yourself. Yeah, that that ability to know what's right
for you is innate to every human and you can
trust that and don't allow anyone to tell you that
(36:55):
you don't know what's best for you. Even if you
make mistakes, Even if you make a choice that you
later think, ah, maybe that wasn't right, you still made
it and you can own it. And you know, just
be your authentic self. Like if you go somewhere and
you're with people that you cannot be who you truly
(37:16):
are and they don't celebrate you for who you are,
that's not where you belong. And you know, the medicine
that I found has been in my ability to to
process this and begin to speak my truth and to
(37:37):
tell my story. There's so much medicine in that for me,
and to sit in spaces where people hold space for
me and where it's safe. And I just always tell
people be as vulnerable as you are safe to be.
Because there was so much healing in that and usually
what I find when I'm vulnerable and I share my story,
(38:00):
it gives other people permission to also be vulnerable and
tell their story. And I don't think there's really any
way to heal outside of that that ability to be
who you are and tell your story.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
So I agree, you have to put you have to
put that into the light, and then the shame dissipates
and you find strength. It's just really hard that first step.
I know that's tough for a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Yeah, I mean even coming on this podcast for me
was like, I it was so funny how many times
it got postponed the recording, and yeah, every time I said, Okay,
there's another layer. And it's like the whole healing process
is like layers of an ongeon and I peel back
another layer. And there were several things that I came
(38:52):
up against in myself at the thought of telling my
story on a more public forum, and yeah, I had
to sit with it and I had to work through it,
and I had to you know, deconstruct that and figure out, Okay,
where is this coming from, and tell myself the truth
and heal that. And so it's just so valuable.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, So, as you've gone through this healing process, are
there any specific things that worked for you that you
might recommend to other people. M.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Yeah, So I did em d R and that really
helped me to reframe some of my trauma in savor
places I did. I practiced, which is the four phrases
(39:51):
I'm sorry, please, forgive me, thank you, I love you.
And that was really good not only for me in
my relationship to other people, but also to myself to
forgive myself to you know, and speaking to my inner
child or the iterations of myself that were not as
strong as I find myself today. So I actually used
(40:15):
to sing that in a to a little tune to myself.
I found that really healing sitting circle with other women
has been hugely healing for me. Just being able to share,
like to feel into my body what am I feeling?
(40:36):
Where do I feel this in my body? Yeah? And uh,
just to be and feel and then and then to
be able to express that to other people in a
safe space that hold space for that and honor and
validate me. That's just been really healing. And I actually
(40:59):
did MDMA once with a therapist and that was huge
for me. I mean The thing I found about that
experience was so you know, I didn't even drink alcohol
until I was twenty one years old, never had any
experience with THHC until I was in my forties. So
anything that expands my mind and allows me to think
(41:22):
outside of this little box that I was conditioned to
live inside in my mind has been really healing for
me because it's allowed me to expand the things that
I even consider. So when I did MDMA, I found
(41:43):
myself verbilizing my path, my journey, and I started back
at childhood and all of these traumatic experiences that I
went through. I was telling this story to my therapist,
and what I found was I had this concept of
myself that I was very weak and that I never
(42:04):
had my own voice and that I never was strong.
And what I saw in reliving that was the times
that I did speak up for myself and the times
that I did stand in my own strength, and it
just refrained everything for me because I hadn't remembered those things.
(42:25):
I had this concept of myself that I was weak
and that I was always controlled, and it just wasn't true.
And what I saw was I showed as much strength
as it was safe for me to show and all
of those things about me are still there. I maintained
(42:46):
that through my life, even in the traumas, and now
I'm just free to fully be that with expression. Yeah,
and then then the whole sense of just that I
am love. I felt that so much throughout my whole body. Yeah.
It was just a really beautiful experience and I found
(43:07):
it very Healum.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
I love that I've looked into not as much M
D M A, but you know, psilocybin, ketamine, those types. Yeah,
and and and I do love the idea of the
expansiveness that it seems to give people and the perspective
(43:32):
on their own experiences that maybe they can't fully have
when they're just you know, normal in their body. So
it sounds like the M D M A was really
powerful for you, like a powerful step. And I think
also importantly you had a therapist guiding you, right.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
Yeah, I wasn't you know, at a party or concert,
right right?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I mean those are the that's the only context I've
even thought about any of these things in is like
definitely would want with a trained therapist who can really
guide you so you can get the best therapeutic effect
of that. Yeah, that's awesome and also EMDR is a
(44:22):
really helpful I've done that as well.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah, but in top therapy, I did some somatic therapy,
just releasing things for my body because we do trap
traumas in our bodies. So yeah, done tapping, you know,
I mean just all the things shaking. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah. Have you done any breath work.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
Yes, I have. I have not, so I had an
opportunity recently and I couldn't I couldn't go. But I
want to look more into that because I feel like
that has an ability to what is it released the
d MT without any substances and has really changed the
way that you, uh interact with yourself and your past
(45:08):
and your traumas. So yeah, have you done it? Yes?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I I did holotropic breath work with a group and
it I didn't know what it was. We had just
I think we had done a meditation before and then
we went into this breathwork class and I uh, the
(45:37):
instructor encouraged us to get into any type of you know,
yoga position that felt comfortable, and I was in child
post and and we were doing this rhythmic breathing where
you're really kind of hyperventilating, you know, and I was
(46:01):
like completely taken aback by the emotions that came up,
Like it felt overwhelming. And I guess that was when
I went into child's posts, because I was in I
was in another post and then I like went down
into that and I immediately started crying and I was like,
what is going on? Like I did not understand the
(46:26):
therapeutic effect that it can have. And then of course
I did a deep dive after that and was like,
you know, ordering books and like what is this? And
I want to do this again? You know, yes, And
in the group it was only ten of us. I
think several other people were having similar experiences. And when
(46:48):
it was over, I know one girl left the room.
She was she just had to, like she was crying
really hard, you know, And that is really I think
an interesting thing about sematic experiencing is that like you
are able to kind of process some of those emotions
(47:09):
and get them out of your body without having to
go through every single detail in you know, talk therapy,
because it's not necessarily easy for everyone.
Speaker 4 (47:19):
No, it's not. And you know, it reminds me of
of a session that I did somatic therapy with the
therapist that I did talk therapy with who I had
bunch the other. Yeah. Yeah, I remember the first time
she had me on the massage table and she was,
you know, just touching lightly various parts of my body,
(47:40):
and I felt very safe with her. We ended up
becoming very good friends. But I remember, you know, it
was all good, and I was breathing through it, and
then she got up to near my head and she
put her just like her binker tips, like right on
my heart, and I lost it. I mean, I had
been doing fine out to that point, and then I
(48:01):
just started sobbing, and she just stood there and I
just sobbed it out. I mean, and I don't even
know what I was releasing at that point, but it
was something and my body knew. And yeah, I just
think it's so valuable. I mean, I think we spend
our whole lives trying to repress our emotions, and really
(48:23):
there's so much cleansing and healing in our tears and
our ability to I mean, sometimes I'll just wail. I
will just allow myself, like I'll put on a movie
that I know is going to make me cry and
I don't even really know, Like this is not even
necessarily a connection in my mind to the movie and
what I've experienced, but right right, it will just start
(48:45):
that flow of emotion for me, and I will, especially
if my children aren't home, I will just allow myself
to wail it out. And oh my gosh, that's just
so feeling.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Yeah, I mean, how do you feel after that?
Speaker 4 (49:00):
Just like clean, Like I had a soul bath, a
soul shower, you know. Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Yeah, I've done that too with music, Like it's certain,
you know, certain songs will just get me. And sometimes
I'm yeah, I'm feeling melancholy and I don't really know why,
and I'm like, I think I just need to get
something out, So let's start. Let's start the tears.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
Actually saying I'm having a bad day. I need to
listen to some wham.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, that's it, honestly, Okay. One song that really spoke
to me was Taylor Swift's Tears Ricochet, And it's the
lyrics I connected so much, like from my experience with
our dad and growing up and losing the family and uh,
(49:56):
and I cannot listen to that without crying. It just
it's like a gut punch. So I avoid it unless
I want to cry and then I can put it on.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Yeah. I have songs like that too, and I'm very
connected to music. Music moves me. It's part of my upbringing,
it's part of who I am, It's in my fabric,
and so yeah, I use music that way a lot. Yeah,
just let her rip. Just cried out.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Oh gosh, Okay, is there anything else that we like you?
Speaker 4 (50:33):
All?
Speaker 1 (50:33):
The things that you said about healing here at the
end is part of what we were going to ask
you as the closing question. So you kind of already
did that now, which is great. I don't know if
you have any like parting words for people who are
going through their own healing journey, or maybe he even
(50:54):
haven't started yet, but that could be helpful.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
Well. Yes, and it comes to what else I wanted
to say to the two of you, and that is
just how grateful I am for podcasts like yours, and
to yours in particular, because I so resonated with your
story because of the aspect of a family cult. It
wasn't just high control religion. It was our family structure
(51:22):
that was so controlling, and so for you to be
here and tell your story and have the guests that
you do. I literally have listened to your entire library
more than once. I mean just this morning, I was
listening to the most recent one you did, and it's
(51:43):
taken me to other podcasts, and I literally spend most
of my time listening to podcasts about cult recovery, etc.
And so that's what I usually tell people. Listen to
some podcasts, see where you find yourself and other people's stories,
and let it empower and embolden you to tell your
own story and on your own healing journey. And I
(52:05):
just find so much inspiration and ideas and just solidarity.
I mean, just knowing I am not the only one
that lived a story like this, and that you can
come out the other side and not stay in a
place of victimhood and find your power and find your
voice and be victorious in your life. And you don't
(52:30):
have to let that dictate what the rest of your
life looks like. You can be who you were came
here to be.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yes so powerful, So thank you, oh, thank you so much.
This is really a great talk. I love talking about
all things healing, and I feel like that will be
really helpful for our listeners as well. So thank you.
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (53:00):
If you liked this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week
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