September 3, 2025 • 65 mins
Leave us a voice message here!
In this episode, Taylor shares her journey of deconstructing a high-control religion and escaping cult-like environments. She discusses her struggles with faith, reconciling science and religion, and the emotional challenges of breaking free from deeply ingrained beliefs. Topics include questioning religious dogma and critical thinking, learning about evolution and its impact on her worldview, facing fears around faith, death, and loss, and reflections on religious trauma and self-compassion.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
In this episode, Taylor shares her journey of deconstructing a high-control religion and escaping cult-like environments. She discusses her struggles with faith, reconciling science and religion, and the emotional challenges of breaking free from deeply ingrained beliefs. Topics include questioning religious dogma and critical thinking, learning about evolution and its impact on her worldview, facing fears around faith, death, and loss, and reflections on religious trauma and self-compassion.
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok for updates, and support the podcast on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to help us continue sharing these important stories!
#TrueCrimePodcast #CultSurvivor #ReligiousTrauma #ExposingCults #FaithDeconstruction #CultStories #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAbuse #LifeAfterCult #BreakingFree #SurvivorStory #TrueStoryPodcast #PodcastRecommendations #HealingJourney #CultAwareness #ExposingTheTruth #CourageToLeave #ManipulationAndControl #ApplePodcasts #SpotifyPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 4 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me. He's speaking through me the Lord.
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're coming to the Lord and if you can take it,
beyond the veil is the chamber. That's the wedding chamber.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
The Lord told me that. But from then on, visions
begin to come. When this comes up on me, it
produces the vision. I'm able to tell people what's wrong
with them, what they must do in life, and the
sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In their life. God is going to be moving vitally
in fot like here.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Both judgments of the.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cult next Door podcast. Quickly,
before we get started, just another reminder to follow us
on our socials, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. We also have
that newer way that you can connect with us, which
is to leave a voice message with a question or
a comment and we might feature it on the show,
speaking of which we're going to play one now from
a listener named Abigail.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Okay, I think i'm recording. I am at the beginning
of So I started listening to this podcast like a
couple of weeks ago, and I'm already at the beginning
of the episode called Substituted Therapy, and I had to
leave a voice message because I'm so annoyed and peeved
by the review. I know y'all did. Y'all weren't, but
(01:46):
I was because I have benefited from listening to this
podcast so much, and I'm so grateful for how you've
done it and how how indeed tell it has been.
I've just literally been going on our long walks in
the evening just to listen to this podcast and feel
(02:08):
my feelings and come out on the other side having
felt my feelings and felt so much solidarity with you guys.
So just to tell my story really quick, well, I
was a Jezebel in my cult, and I wasn't allowed
to be in the cult for very long. They I
ended up getting kicked out after like two years. But
(02:30):
I grew up in a very strong, high control religion,
and so it's been a lot to deconstruct, but I
love your podcast and the way you did it is perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So yeah, Abigail, thank you very much for that voice message.
It means a lot to Ashley and I both that
people who listen can kind of glean some good from it.
I know it's been cathartic for us, but just to
know that there are other people, you know, however, there
are that it benefits them. That's really important to me,
(03:04):
and I know it is to Ashley as well. Listeners,
if you want to leave a message like Abigail did,
you can find the link on our Instagram bio or
at the top of the episode description for the episode
that you are listening to right now. Also want to
do our double Portion club shoutouts Shanda and Chase, Heather Bartlett,
Carla and Julia B. Thank you all very much for
supporting the podcast. Listener, If you would like to be
(03:27):
in that club, it's ten dollars a month. You get
AD free episodes and this shout out with every episode.
Or you can pay five dollars a month to support
the work and you'll get AD free episodes and I'll
send you a really cool holographic culting source sticker. Also
want to read a review. This one actually came through
this morning, so it's perfect timing. This is a one star,
so let's get into it. Says episode sixty two lost me.
(03:50):
I have loved and told so many people about this
podcast because it felt powerful and raw and needed until
episode sixty two with Taylor. It's okay that the host
and some guests are not Christian. It is okay for
their belief to be a belief in nothing. However, to
dog others and talk about how you can't be Christian
and believe in the Bible. They talk about how they
(04:12):
are smarter than others because they use critical thinking to
disprove beliefs and others don't. I don't care if you
believe in God, Jesus, Buddha, or nothing at all, but
talking down about everyone in a faith system is not okay. Heck,
even talking down about people still in a cult isn't okay.
This episode was gross and I unfollowed everywhere and will
(04:32):
never recommend it again. I got a few new cult
podcasts I can recommend where the host and guests aren't bigoted.
First off, ouch, Amanda, that's a harsh one. I would say.
I'm not gonna spend too much time addressing this one.
I would just say that anybody who has listened to
last week's episode, I think you'll probably be able to
(04:56):
tell that this isn't about Christians. It's about Christianity and
the structure, and as I think I even said during
that episode, the things that you will believe because of
this faith structure, because of this religion, that you otherwise
would not believe, things that you would say and do
(05:16):
and believe in actions that you would take. And I
am lumped into that. By the way, I was a
Christian for well. I was baptized at sixteen years old,
fifteen sixteen years old, and I've been out for five
years and I'm thirty six years old, so you can
do the math on that. I was a Christian for
a very long time. So I understand what it's like
to suppress that critical thinking. I understand what it's like
(05:40):
to believe things quote unquote that you otherwise wouldn't, things
that you don't like, that you don't understand fully, I know.
My intention was to call out religious dogma that I
have found to be incredibly damaging in so many ways
ways that we can't even count. Not to pay on
(06:00):
individual Christians. So listener, whether you agree with me or
you agree with the reviewer, we actually do want to
hear from all of you. So I hope that it's
not a one star, but if it is, go ahead
and give us a review. I actually want to know
on Apple, Spotify wherever you listen, like let us know
what you think, and the same with the voice message,
(06:21):
like reach out. I want to know what you guys
think about these episodes week to week and what you
think about the podcast in general as a whole. So
enough about that, we're going to jump into part two
with Taylor. Let's take a listen, Okay.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
So.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Let's pick it back up so after I'm joining that too.
And I love this conversation though I can talk about
this like all day. I like going back to that
happened at the Capitol and and you said you felt
like that could have been the trigger to start the
(06:59):
deconstruction process, but you were only fourteen and it didn't,
but obviously had a lasting impact on you. What happened
after that point as far as like your faith goes, I.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Was still very much in it. I'd like, once again,
i'd like to say that I had this huge revelation,
and I stood up in that church and good, that's
not right. I walked out, you know, but that's not
what happened. And I kept I was as dedicated as ever.
I accepted it, and I was gonna If a guy
(07:32):
raped me, then it was helping him not be homosexual.
Oh and oh yeah, disgusting, disgusting, and I was terrified.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So when.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
You know, I just I not only wore skirts. I
started wearing leggings underneath my skirts and socks and tennis shoes.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
My ankles were too, yes.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
And it would be ninety degrees out, and that's what
I wanted to wear. I would buy swimsuits that were,
you know, had a skirt that had shorts. Yes, even
even still, I don't wear swimsuits without shorts or a skirt.
And Quincy my husband, we've been married for two and
a half years. I'm an atheist. I don't have I
(08:21):
don't believe in this purity culture. But man, I get
uncomfortable and I have to buy shorts or a skirt
because I'm It's like a subconscious thing. I don't consciously
think if I don't, then a guy's gonna rape me.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
It's but that feeling of discomfort in your body doesn't leave.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And I understand that because I've had similar experiences with that.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
To do, it's hard to un do it all.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It really does. It's awful. And I remember when I
went to college after graduating, so my last year of homeschooling,
So my senior year of high school, I started doing
dual credit classes at Missouri Southern State University and I
(09:13):
quit CC altogether because they don't they don't really believe
in science and my parents, I wanted to do a
scientific degree and so it wasn't going to help me.
And so my mom found the dual credit program at
Southern and was like, well, you can take your math
and your English and get it all out of the way.
(09:34):
And so that's what we did. She I mean, my
mom is so smart about all that. She knew exactly
what to do, exactly how to save money doing it.
So I'm just so grateful for her that she did
that for my senior year. So thanks, mom, You're the best. Yes,
I have a really good mom and a really good dad.
(09:57):
I got some pretty awesome parents. But so that's what
my senior year looked like. And then when I went
to college for real after my senior year and I
like went off to college, lived in the dorms, and
started my freshman year. I decided to pursue a degree
in marine biology because I love sharks, I love the ocean,
(10:21):
I love conservation.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
You know all this O Hey, this girl swims with sharks.
I do, like, you should look at her instagram.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I do. Yeah, it's it's a lot of fun and
I want to protect things like that. So I'm very
environmentally conscious and right now I'm in the fourth best
environmental law school in the nation to try and get
my jd. For environmental lawns and things like that. But
in order to go to law school, you have to
have an undergraduate degree. So I went from marine biology
(10:51):
and my first like science classes were like Bio one
oh one, Bio one oh two, and Bio one oh eight,
So one on one and one o two. Where biology
wanted to Bio one oh eight was biodiversity and that's
where they taught more of the evolution and how we
(11:12):
got biodiversity. I had never learned evolution. My dad had
certain videos that we might we my brother and my sister,
we could all watch and it was about dinosaurs and
things like that. So I was familiar with dinosaurs. I
was familiar with the you know, uh, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Triassic periods,
(11:35):
you know, and all that. But and I'd heard about evolution,
but I'd heard that it was to deceive us, and
evolutions not real and there's no evidence for it, and
people just want to find a way to explain the
world without a god. That's what I was taught the
evolution and science is for. And I went to that
(11:58):
class and they started teaching about evolution. And I remember
after every single class, I would go back to my
dorm and I would open the Bible to Genesis because
I was so scared of believing what I was taught
in class. And at first, you know, I'm just, well,
(12:21):
they're teaching the same things as as my Christian teachers were.
They're teaching me a thing and they want me to
believe it. And the Christian teachers are teaching me a
thing and they want me to believe it. So it's
the same weight. And then I started realizing it's not
the same weight because now I'm doing labs and now
(12:41):
I get to test things for myself. Yes, and now
there's evidence. I've got evidence for evolution. I can see
it happen in a lab.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And you realize science doesn't have a bias.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Exactly, and they say it does and it doesn't. It
doesn't have a.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Bias climate hoax.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Oh I could go on that. Oh geez, but yeah,
they I just started learning more about it and I
started researching for myself. But I would I would go
through Genesis. I bet I read Genesis fifty times, trying
(13:25):
to justify, trying to make it off. Yes, trying to
fit these puzzle pieces together that don't go together, and
people will. You know, I don't like thinking that religion
and science are mutually exclusive, because there are people that
are physicists and Catholic. There are people that have their
(13:48):
PhDs and some really complicated science and they're very much Christian.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
But pretty small.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
It is pretty small, and once again you're you're suspending
critical thinking for this. And I just realized, like, creation
doesn't make sense. There's no evidence for it. And if
I'm going to believe something, I want there to be
evidence for it. And I know I mean, I know
this because my younger self would think this if I
(14:19):
were to listen to myself today, I would say, well,
this liberal college corrupted you.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes, that's not that.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Diminishes my experience, and I don't appreciate that that is,
that's not true. If you want to know how an
atheist thinks or has come to this conclusion, ask them.
Don't rely on your pastor to tell you how atheists
think and why they do what they do. Ask an
(14:47):
atheist and listen. Don't listen to have a comeback and
to make them a project, Listen to them. And that's
what I've been learning. And so I started learning all
of this and learning about science and testing these things
for myself in a lab and seeing all of the
(15:09):
evidence that evolution has and this it's an amazing process.
The world has opened up with possibilities and knowledge that
I was never allowed to learn. Because if you learn
this stuff, if you learn real science, if you do
the labs for yourself, if you really learn it, then
(15:33):
you're gonna realize that what you're taught doesn't make sense.
And they don't.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Want you to know that.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
They want to keep you as sheltered as possible. That's
why they have the curriculum that is catered to Christianity
that everything is through a biblical lens. That's why they
do that because they can't have you thinking for yourself
and you think you are, but you're not.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And it's also why you're supposed to only associate with
like minded people.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Exactly, Iron sharpens Iron heard that, you know, but we
all have. Yeah, yeah, you're not supposed to. Or if
you do, then you have to put on the full
armor of God and minister to them.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
So right, Yeah, if you had friends, this is the
way it was with me growing up, if you had
friends that were not in the church, meaning our church,
like school friends, Like, the point should be that you
are bringing them to Christ because otherwise they're going to
(16:39):
influence you. It can't just be.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Exactly, I'm twelve and we're friends, like you said, it's
a project thing, which, yes, like this sucks.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Man, cannot just be friends because we both like dinosaurs, right,
why can't that be a thing.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Yeah, So it kind of just started with that, but
I still in it. I was still believing it, like
maybe this is just how God does it. I was
still implementing the God of the gaps, right, and this
is just how God does it?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And did you ever hear Just side note, I remember
at some point when you know it was it could
be proven that there's micro evolution because, like you said,
you're in the lab, you're seeing it. I remember hearing
that that was like something that God did.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
But then like mac macro evolution.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
No, yeah, that was taught in our textbooks at CC
macro versus micro evolution. And I'm going to get a
little science y because I now have a degree in
the science. Micro and macro evolution is the same thing.
Micro is just on a smaller level. So you have
(17:56):
these tiny little changes and then over time, time is
the ingredient for macro evolution. If you take away time
and you say the Earth is six thousand years old,
you can't have that ingredient, so then macro evolution falls apart.
(18:16):
That's not true. The Earth is older than six thousand
years old. It is four point six billion years old
at least as of the current science data that we have.
That is how old the Earth is. That is plenty
of time for micro evolution to have macro evolution, and
(18:38):
we have definitive evidence that the Earth is that old.
So these little bitty changes and evolution is incredibly complex.
It involves genetics, It involves all kinds of geographical adaptations
and things like that. You have your heterogeneous structures, you
(18:59):
have your vestage structures. I could get all into that.
We've got animals that were previously thought to be related.
So we've got bugs and we've got birds. They both
have wings, they both fly, So you might think that
these guys are evolutionarily related, but they're not. We have
(19:20):
genetics that shows that they evolved similar structures based on
the environments that they are required to live in, rather
than they diverged at some point. And so we have
these concepts that are well they are well documented. The
theory of evolution is a theory. This is another thing
(19:41):
that people would say, it's just a theory. Yes, it's
just a guess. Yes, So I'll address that. In the
scientific world, there's certain terms that the scientific world defines
differently than everyday language. Same as in law. So in
law we defined intent differently than how you would in
(20:01):
a normal conversation. So same thing when you're in a specialization,
things are different. So in everyday language, Well, I have
a theory as to my car might not start right now,
maybe it's at a gas maybe, so it's a guess
in everyday language. In science, that's not right. So you
(20:24):
have your your guess, you have your observation, so that's
kind of your your starting point. You have your observation,
and then you have your hypothesis. And your hypothesis isn't
what if I do this, it's almost a prediction. So
your hypothesis and prediction are closely intertwined. They're not the same,
(20:46):
but they're closely intertwined. So I hypothesize that if A
plus B happen, then that'll equal see, and then you
do the experiment and you don't do the experience. You
don't do the experiment once you do it several times,
hundreds of times, decades of times, until it becomes a theory.
(21:11):
We have the theory of gravity. We have cell theory.
We know that gravity exists, We know that cells exist,
atomic theory, we know atoms exist. And you're putting evolution
on a lower pedestal than it actually is. It's on
the same pedestal as gravity, cells, and atoms. So we
(21:34):
have the theory of evolution. The theory explains why a
thing is, how it is. A law is this is
the law that it is, so it's like the scientific equation, right,
but your theory is it's been tested a thousand or
(21:55):
more times and this is the conclusion. We keep arriving conclusion,
and you try as a scientist, you're not trying to
prove something, you're trying to disprove something. That is what
you do as a scientist. You're trying to prove yourself wrong.
And when you can't do that, then you move forward.
(22:16):
So it's also a misconception of science and of the
scientific method, but you're not taught that because you can't.
I can't think that way.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I was so angry when I found out, and that
was in school as well, what actual scientific theory means.
I'm like, okay, well, my entire life, everyone who's used that,
we use that argument that it's just a theory. Yep,
this is just this guy Darwin. He just had this idea,
(22:50):
you know, and he didn't know God.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
They just think he went to the island, looked at
turtles and was like, that's probably it.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah. And I just remember such a heavy emphasis on
the word theory, and then when I actually learned what
it was, I've literally just felt like I have been
so misguided.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, because you have Yeah, yeah, it's unreal because evolution
is how we have medicines, that's how we have antibiotics.
The evolution is the whole reason. Our understanding of evolution
is why we have the scientific progression that we have today.
So it's not a war on science, it's an ignorance
(23:34):
of science. If you're the smartest person in the room,
you're in the wrong room. I've heard that so many times.
Don't go into a class thinking you know everything. Yeah,
and that's what we're taught to do. You put on
the full armor of God when you go to college.
Then these liberals are going to corrupt you, and you're
(23:55):
going to be you know, you have to be guarded
and know that they're going to try and indoctrinate you.
But why why are you so afraid of learning? Why
are you so afraid be Are you afraid that you're
your way of thinking isn't going to make sense?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Right? I mean really, I think there are like almost
like two types of people, some people who want to
be challenged and who aren't. You don't really have an
internalized fear of what they might what conclusions they might
come to. And then you know other people who really
do not want their worldview shaken up at all, Yeah,
(24:37):
because that is such a tumult like tumultuous thing to
go through. And like, I don't want to name anyone,
but like there's someone in my life who this person
is incredibly intelligent, and I feel like there's no way
if we had real discussion that this person would come
(24:59):
out actually being able to defend their beliefs. But I
also know that this person is not someone who wants
any ripples. They do not want any bumps in the road.
They just want to keep living like they're living and
they don't want to know more. And so maybe that's
simplifying it too much, just saying like there's two different types,
(25:20):
but but I definitely feel like I felt in the
category of like I don't want what I believe to
be disproven. Yeah, but then I made that, I made
that transition, and I was like, Okay, well, whatever it is,
it is. Ye, I'm just going to have to accept
that because that process started, and I feel like once
(25:40):
it starts, you can't stop it. I mean, at least
for me, there was no stopping, right you start to
question one thing. Yeah, it's just like we talked about
before the unraveling.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, it's it's an uncomfortable thing and so much so.
I mean, don't don't just believe every don't even believe
me what I'm saying and what I just talked about
with evolution and just the drop in the ocean of
what I just talked about with science. You don't have
to believe me. Look it up for yourself. Yeah, research
(26:12):
it for yourself. Don't take my word for it. That's
bad science. Don't just believe me blindly. Please don't.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
But I think such a hard hurdle with that is
that people are looking for opinions and ideas that are
going to support the beliefs that they already have. And
I know that from personal experience. You know, like there
was I don't remember the name of it, but there
(26:40):
was this video that Kurt and I used to have
and it was about the universe, and the whole point
of the video is that Earth is like specifically placed,
you know, where we just have the view of the
(27:01):
stars and the galaxy, and and that God did that
for us because there aren't any other planet, which is
really funny because like how much how much are we
actually able to see? But but that no other planet
can sustain life and actually has this view and that
(27:21):
is a beautiful concept, you know, And and I clung
to that for a while. There were times where I
doubted before I was really ready at all, and I
would watch that again, yeah, because I was like, okay, okay,
like I'm really trying.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
But then once you're like, once you transition to I'm
not gonna try to find something that supports my worldview.
I'm just gonna listen and see. And that's what I
did with like the Christian apologists and the atheist like debates.
I feel like I watch every single one of them
available to me. And in the beginning, I was looking
(28:00):
for anything on the Christian apologist side that I could
hang on too that was like okay, there, there's that's
why I can believe this, and I could not, I mean,
and then after a while I was just like, okay, well,
this is like piling up on one side.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I'd wake up at night sweating thinking about Bart ermin.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
No, don't bar Bart in your dream.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I was genuinely scared of him, like, because I would
watch like debates and stuff. But the point for me
then was like, yeah, these Christian apologists, like they're going
to get them exact science too.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It's like that's the idea. But but I wouldn't go
read a bar Ermine. I wouldn't go read you know,
these other atheist books and things like that. Was like
that's a bridge too far. And I remember when I
bought what was what's the bart Ermine book How Jesus
became that one? When I bought that one, and I
had it for months, and like Wooden, and this was
(29:04):
early on kind of in my deconstruction, but I had
it sitting on the credenza for months because I was afraid,
because I was still like I don't want to not believe,
but I can feel myself going that way, and I thought, like,
I have a feeling that that's not going to help me,
you know.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
But but the interesting thing with that is I don't
feel like at any point he's trying to convince anyone
of anything. It's very historical. It's like, you know, and
he's talking about when he's talking about Jesus, he's talking
about all the other Jesus before him. You know, the
(29:43):
very same exact born of a virgin died rose three
days later. It's a repeating pattern that you see throughout history.
These stories are all very similar, and so that I
felt like it was more of a history lesson and
for me, but with a lesson that I took. So
(30:08):
you're learning all this in college?
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Is that the trigger? Then? Like you're reading your Bible
every day? But at what point did you just say
I can't, I cannot keep doing this.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
So at that point I was searching desperately with my
whole heart for confirmation bias. So that that's at the
stage I was at in my deconstruction was I was
just like cleaning onto the threads. And one of those
threads was the earth is so perfectly placed for us.
That was one of the threads that I was clinging to.
And the other was matter cannot come from non matter.
(30:44):
That was the other thread I was clinging to. And
so I would just I remember sitting down in the
cafeteria with one of my friends who's a pastor's kid,
and so she was very much into this. She and
I are still very good friends. So I in no
way think that if you're a Christian, you're a bad
person at all. Some of my closest friends are Christian,
(31:07):
you know, and very devoutly, so she's an amazing human being.
But she and I were just talking and I was like, girl,
I don't believe. I don't know how to believe this.
I don't know how to make myself believe this, and
I'm scared because I will burn forever if I don't.
And you know, her answer was the same as everyone else.
(31:29):
You just have to have faith, you just so I
was just trying to will myself to have faith and
to believe in something, but you can't make yourself believe something,
like genuinely believe it, right, And I was just struggling
so much with that, And then I just started really
questioning any other thing, and like, this doesn't make any sense,
(31:51):
Like if I really think about this, this doesn't make sense.
And even if it did make sense, the God is awful. Like,
you know, even if scientifically religion made sense, the God
is terrible. But just based on the scientific way of
thinking and evidence and all of that, nothing makes sense.
(32:12):
And when I came home, it took a long time.
I was in that limbo for a very long time,
and my brother was deconstructing and I had no idea.
Oh and yes, how much older is he? That he
is two years younger. Oh he is, Yes, he went
to College Heights. Oh yep, okay, yeah, he's two years younger.
(32:35):
And he was like, I don't believe this, and I
was like it almost gave me permission to say it.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, like oh it's hard, yeah, the first time to
even say it to yourself.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
And at first I wouldn't say I was an atheist.
I was I think I'm agnostic.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
Yeah, I don't know. And he was like, this doesn't
make sense, and like, you know, College Heights was, you know,
a Christian school in town that he went to, and
so he it wasn't the same as CC, but some
of the things they taught scientifically and all of that
were kind of similar. But you know, we just kind
(33:20):
of started talking about it, and then I was like,
you know, I I can say it out loud, like
this doesn't make sense and it's okay, And it's okay
to say I don't know what happened before the Big Bang? Well,
the Big Bang is when space and time began, So
(33:43):
you're asking what happened before before was a thing, So
that question doesn't make sense. But I don't know, right,
I don't know and I don't know, and I can
say that and.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
That's okay, yes, And.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Learning that when you don't know something, you can't just
oh God, it must be God, it must be magic.
If I don't know, that's not that's not logical. Don't
go there, you know that.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I just a side note feeling like you there's an
answer for everything in Christianity. That That's another thing that
I don't think people realize is changing the way that
they interact, maybe maybe with their family or with their
(34:32):
their children. Because there was a point in time where
I realized it was okay. And maybe other people haven't
experienced this as much, but it was okay if my
child had a question and I did not know, and
it was okay to say, you know, I don't know,
or let me think about that. But I know for me,
I always wanted to have some answer, and I would
(34:54):
sometimes just like almost make up an answer in the moment.
It wasn't that was like trying to lie or anything.
It was just like, there has to be an answer
for this, yeah, and I have to know what it is,
you know. And so I think I think religion impacts
us in so many ways. We don't even know, yes,
And I think that's an important thing to be able
to say to your child. Yeah, I don't know. I
(35:16):
don't have all the answers.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And now our dad had every answer, Oh man?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, should we call him?
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Oh yeah? I mean now with with my kids, you know,
if they're wondering, I mean, they're still like one of
them is learning how to talk, you know, and when
he wants to know something I don't know, let's figure
it out. What happens when you push the cup off
of the table. What happens, Let's figure it out. Let's yeah,
(35:47):
let's knock it off. Let's see what happens, you know.
And just it's okay to learn, it's okay, and it's
okay to not know everything.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Absolutely nothing terrible is gonna happen to you if you
don't know. Yeah, And I always thought, don't tell me.
This is a very loving God, and I'm struggling, and
he sees me struggling so hard trying to understand, and
I want to believe him in him right, but I'm
just not seeing the evidence.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And he doesn't come help me with that, you know
what I mean. And then because I come to a
point where I cannot believe it. Now. I go to hell, right,
like if he really wanted to be like, wouldn't he
have compassion for me that I'm struggling and that I
really wanted this, And it just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
It doesn't. And that's that's the point I read, you know,
for your question, like, I don't believe it. There's no evidence.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
So when you had that conversation with your brother, did
that kind of solidify that for you?
Speaker 4 (36:58):
It made me think about it again because I didn't
want to think about it and I was in that
limbo of searching for confirmation bias. So it made me
start thinking about it again and going through that again,
and it was just such a hard thing and and
I just I just kept thinking about it, and I
was told, you know, don't think, don't don't think about it,
(37:19):
you know, just just believe it, and allowing myself to
think about it for the first time. And it was
liberating and it was terrifying. So one I was working
through everything and then I got to the hurdle of death.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Oh god, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
So then that was like the last hurdle I had,
you know, all like relatives that have died and I'm
going to die. And I used to believe that I
was going to see Grandma again, I was going to
see Grandpa again, and I was gonna, you know, reunite
with my family someday. And I'm not. That's not real.
(38:11):
I have seen my grandparents for the last time. And
that's the fact, and at least until there is evidence
that proves otherwise. And that was a struggle, But that's okay,
(38:38):
because when you have one life to live, you want
to live it and experience everything you can because you
don't have a second chance. And there's almost a beauty
in that. And the fact that I don't have to
(38:58):
live again is almost leaving I mean in all reality.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
So you're like, hopefully this path like reincarnation.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's once you come back and you're like,
damn it, Oh, I have to do it again. I
have to live forever. But yeah, I mean, just.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Do you feel like a lot of people are not
living life as fully as they would, Yes, because they are,
in a sense, living for something in the future. Yes,
And it's that's so sad to me.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Yeah, it is because you want to you don't want
to take this life for granted, because you think you're
going to live forever and you'll have a chance to
do it when you're in heaven or something. You don't
you won't and go go live your life, be happy,
be happy. I mean, of course, don't hurt people, you know,
(40:07):
But like if you want to go on a trip
and hike up a mountain because you can do it. Yes,
you know that you're nothing. You don't have to seek
the approval of some higher being. You don't have to
(40:27):
and go do what makes you happy. And I can
do that. There's no overwhelming threat of what if I
am not doing what I'm called to be doing. What
if I'm not on the path God wants? What if
I'm displeasing him? You know, what if I didn't answer
his calling? And you know, there's none of that anymore.
(40:49):
All those voices are gone. Yeah, and I'm still working
through it, obviously. I don't think I'll ever stop working
through it. But it's death is okay. It's horribly sad.
It is. It is so sad, and it's hard. That's
I know for a lot of people, that's the sticking point.
They don't want to believe that this is the end. Yeah,
(41:11):
and I understand that because that was so hard to
go through, Like, once I die, I won't see my
kids again. Yeah, I mean we have a free country.
You can freedom of religion for now, for now, depending
on where you live, right, I mean you should have
freedom of religion, and so that's and freedom from exactly
(41:36):
you know.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I the death part didn't bother me as much. I
know it did my wife Liz. That's one of the
things because there's that comfort. I keep talking about. The
thing that bothered me because I have a justice complex,
was the idea like, oh, there are people who do
(41:57):
terrible things, just live terrible lives, and there's no justice
for that in the end. Like coming to that realization
like this guy's gonna die never having faced any consequences
for anything like that was the thing for me that
has been the struggle in thinking like those who do
(42:17):
wrong and things that are terrible, like there's maybe no
retribution for any of that, you know, which I think
it's interesting because it's different for everybody when you go
through that process of what are the things that kind
of stick the most, that hurt the most, you know.
But yeah, it's just interesting to see how how people
(42:40):
process those things differently.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
You know, I have to, I have to say this,
so my Okay, so I think I already mentioned this too.
On our first exploratory call that recently had a really
really scary flight. Yes, and just we took off in
a storm. I can still see lightning outside, and you know,
(43:07):
I had one really bad experience. Is the worst turbulence.
I mean like things were hitting the ceiling and stuff.
And this was many years ago, but ever since then,
I have anxiety when I fly, and usually it's totally manageable,
but anytime the weather is bad, like I get a
(43:29):
little scared. And it was very it was bad, okay.
And my youngest son said to me afterwards, He's like,
why were you so scared? And I said, well, I
like really don't want to die in a plane crash,
you know. And he was like, have you not accepted
(43:50):
your own mortality yet?
Speaker 4 (43:52):
Wow? That was deep.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Empty and I just looked at I was not laughing.
I was like, I don't know if I would say that,
but like I'm worried about it hurting or being terrified
right before it happens. Yeah, but he was like so calm,
he I mean, you don't have to put this in here,
(44:16):
but like he and Ryan were sitting next to each other,
and Lena and I were next to each other, and
I was like literally doing Vaguel like vegas breathing because
I was really trying not to have a full blown
panic attack. And so I'm doing these breath counts and
all this, and I'm holding one's hand and i hear
(44:37):
Brandt talking to Ryan, and I'm like, is he actually talking?
The Blaine is silent because it's scary. We're like literally
all over the place and uh. And afterwards Ryan is like, no,
he has a new phobia. He will fly again, but
he's very scared, like he was scared all the other
(44:58):
flights he had to take, like and our connecting flight
and then coming home like a lot of anxiety because
that was a really scary thing. And uh. And he
said while that was happening, brand said to him, what
if this is the day we die? Oh? Cool as
a cucumber, just like and he told me He's like, well,
(45:21):
I mean I just thought if it's my time to die,
like it's time to die. Yeah, I don't think I'm
ever going.
Speaker 4 (45:29):
To get there with death fight, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
And then it's so funny because on the way back,
Ryan said, I can't sit with you, mom because we
can't both be anxious, And I can't sit with Lynn
because Lynn was scared but calm. He was like, I
need someone that has the opposite energy for me, total
indifference to whether we're about to die or not.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Oh my gosh, so.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
The whole all the other flights.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
Ryan said with brand, Wow, that's awesome. Have I been
to like kind of press a lot of anger?
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Okay, you can talk about the anger, because I think
anger is very justified here, Okay, right, I mean I
have thought about, you know, and I've heard this argument too,
like what if children just weren't indoctrinated in anything you
didn't teach them there was a god, you didn't teach them,
(46:38):
there wasn't a god. They got to just grow up
as kids, not without you know, not having this fear
like built into their nervous systems from the very beginning.
And then as adults with fully functioning brains and the
capability of making their own decisions and understanding the world
(47:01):
around them and coming to their own conclusions, they can
choose if they want to be part of a religion
or not. Like what would that look like, why are
we why are we doing it like this?
Speaker 4 (47:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, And so it's just like we've talked about, you know,
autoimmune disease and the physical physiological effects of this type
of trauma. It's real and it has lasting, long term consequences,
and so, you know, I know, just like you said,
(47:39):
people are doing the best they can. I started my
kids in the cult because I thought that was what
was best for them. I thought I needed to do that.
But I hate that in a sense, I like, I
do have guilt about that because I feel like, my God, Ashley,
(48:00):
that's so irresponsible to to indoctrinate your kids or attempt
to indoctrinate them from a very early age to believe
something that they their little brains are literally not capable
of discerning at all. But I just, you know, I
didn't think that way obviously in the beginning, and that's
(48:24):
you know, a process that I've gone through in my
conclusions now. And it's hard when I see that happening
all around me. M hm. It's hard when I see
little kids who are like deciding to accept Jesus when
they're like eight. You know, I'm just like, they don't know,
they've literally never been exposed to any other religion or
(48:45):
any other way of thinking. Yeah, that's not even real.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
Yeah, and pledging your life to something when you're eight,
yeah or younger, I mean, yeah, it's it's disgusting.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Our brains aren't even fully formed until twenty five or something.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, and really just going back to this is living
in our nervous systems. Yeah, it's living in our body.
It causes disease in our bodies. Yeah, you know when
you have when you're living under duress in some way. Yeah,
And obviously there are different there are variations of that.
(49:24):
I feel like we grew up in duress. And my
therapist has said, you you learned like to live in
your sympathetic nervous system, and it's really hard for you
to get into your parasympathetic Like she said, this is
my last session, said, every time I try to get
you in your parasympathetic you run right over me and
(49:47):
go right back into like high alert, you know. And
she was even referencing my body language, and I'm like, god,
you know, it's it's hard to oh that, it's hard
to undo that. And we're like doing that to our kids.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
Yeah, I wish, I mean, they don't remember it, but
I do. I wish that I would not have baptized
my kids. Yeah, and they won't remember it, thank goodness,
But saying that my two month old kids have sins
that need to be forgiven, like that you are now
(50:26):
forgiven of all sins. And I was just talking to
you about this and that the congregations because my kids
are so young. They were baptized when they were like
eight weeks old or something, or maybe a little older
than that, because they were in nick you, but very
very very little. And I did it because it was
tradition my family. I mean I was I was christened
(50:47):
because I was in like a Baptist thing. My husband
was was baptized when he was maybe because it's a
Lutheran thing, so variations within denominations, but it was tradition,
and so I was like, well, yeah, it's fine. It's
just a little water on their heads. It's not a
big deal. And if that's what the tradition is, then
we'll just do it. It's not a big gale.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
And I.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Should have put my foot down because listening to the
pastor and people think that it's not very harmful because
it's just some water and you know, we're just saving
their souls just in case and like things like that, right, Yeah,
and the congregation when a child is that young, the
(51:32):
congregation answers on their behalf that they accept Jesus into
their hearts. So that's what they did. That's what the
congregation did. And then I now forgive you of all
the sins past and present, you know, and these are
my new born babies. And the fact that you think
(51:52):
they've got sins you know, either that they have committed
somehow or will commit, and that you were going to
decide for them because they are babies and incapable of deciding.
You're dedicating their lives to something else. Like they don't
even know what you're doing. And like just thinking about it,
(52:15):
and I know my husband will disagree with me, but
that's messed up.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
That is so messed up.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
And just thinking about it now, you know, hindsight, now
that I'm fully deconstructed, if that's even possible, I'm more
deconstructed than I was at that point. You know, it
is a regret that I have. But I mean, my
dad is literally telling me this yesterday about something different,
(52:41):
but the same thing applies. You could do like should
haves all day. But all you can do is you
made a choice, and now you just move forward, right,
and so you know, you don't beat yourself up about it.
You don't should have your way out of it. Yeah, okay, now,
now what. I don't have to put him in Sunday
(53:03):
school every Sunday. I don't have to put him in
a Christian daycare. I don't have to take him to church.
I don't have to read him the Bible. I don't
have to sing them Jesus Loves You. I don't have to,
and I'm not going to anytime my two year old
(53:24):
makes a mistake. I'm not going to tell him that
this being is looking down from above and man, you
disappointed God. And he's two. He doesn't even know what
he's doing. It's a cause and effect relationship in his brain.
It's not even a wrong, you know. I'm not going
to introduce that to him. So and I'm picking on
(53:45):
my son because he throws more than my daughter does,
same thing for her. But anyway, it's just. But there
is some compassion to be had for parents because my
parents were brainwashed as well. My dad grew up in
(54:07):
a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist Evangelical Christian church.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
And it's kind of just a generational cycle.
Speaker 4 (54:16):
It is. You have to break the generational trauma, and
that's so hard to do. And I'm my mom wasn't
raised in like the really religious thing, but she was
raised Lutheran and then she got really into it with CC.
But I'm proud of my parents too for breaking out
of this and breaking the generational trauma. And we are
(54:38):
all kind of all four doing it. My sister is
still pretty religious, but you know, I'm just proud of them.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:49):
So, I mean, they're well, it takes courage.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
It really does take courage to deconstruct.
Speaker 4 (54:55):
Yeah, And I have parents that are deconstructing and know
what I'm going through and are like, yes, your feelings
are valid and all of that. They don't have that
because they're the first generation to break out of this. Yeah,
So that can I mean, I can't even imagine how
lonely that is for them. And so I've just there
is a lot of compassion to be had, and I
(55:17):
just hope that parents like mine that put their kids
in these programs will have self compassion. And I tell
my parents this, but I mean, you did put us
in this, but this is not your doing. Almost they're not.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
It's they're not the predator, it's not. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (55:44):
So there is self compassion that needs to be had
and needs to be addressed. So and I'm working with
that for myself as well.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, I mean that's an ongoing process for me as well.
I when I got a divorce and I was starting
my deconstruction process, things changed between me and the kids
because you know, then I was questioning everything, and so
(56:12):
I pulled back from anything Bible related with them, you know,
but we had split custody, and you know, I don't
know if I could have affected any type of change,
but I didn't want them to go to the church
(56:33):
with their dad every other week. I put my foot
down when it came to summer camps. Okay, yeah, and
they did go to a couple of them because my
daughter really wanted to go and be with friends. And
that's understandable, but it's not the purpose of those camps, right,
(56:54):
And so at some point, you know, I was like,
I don't want this, Like, but I didn't fight to
keep them out of church every other week. And I
still think about that. I don't know if I would
have had a strong enough case, because outwardly it doesn't
(57:14):
look like a cult, and a lot of what we're
talking about is all culty anyway, you know, so it
could have just been looked at like, well, this is
kind of you know, maybe not entirely mainstream, but it's
just a Christian church, and you know, they're not like
verbally and physically abusing people there, so we can't do
anything like I don't know if that's what would have happened,
(57:36):
but I mean, now, if I was going through that,
now I would fight tooth and nail to keep them out.
But at the time, you know, I didn't. And then
as soon as they you know, were of age, they
themselves had chosen not to go and sound thankful for that,
(57:56):
but it's really hard. It's really hard to look back
at a mindset that you used to have and believe
so wholeheartedly in and and recognize how wrong you were. Yeah,
and that's it. And then, like you're saying, self compassion,
which we talked about earlier, is a very difficult thing
(58:18):
for people to do who were raised in the Christian faith. Yes,
like you're you're evil, you're you're dirty, you're sinful, like
your heart is deceitful, you know what I mean, Like.
Speaker 4 (58:32):
Yeah, you're born into sin, original sin, the concept, and yeah,
you need Jesus, you need him to save you from yourself.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
Yeah, and I've heard recently in evangelical fundamentalist circles, you know,
empathy is bad. Empathy is, you know, causing all these problems.
And so if you can't have empathy for others, how
you're gonna have empathy for yourself? I mean, it's just
I think the self compassion is a difficult thing to
(59:03):
grab a hold of when you've been indoctrinated to believe
that you don't deserve it.
Speaker 5 (59:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (59:11):
Yeah, absolutely, but that's something you know, we have to learn.
Speaker 1 (59:17):
And when you know better, you do better. I had
to like repeat that mantra to myself.
Speaker 4 (59:24):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I am thankful that I am
deconstructing early enough in my kids' lives that they won't
have to experience what I experienced.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yeah, that's that's amazing.
Speaker 4 (59:47):
Yeah, I'm because.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
That cycle is like severed.
Speaker 4 (59:51):
It is it is, and I'm I'm thankful for that.
And but there's to be other things that twenty years later,
I'm going to be like I should have, of course,
you know, I should have protected them from but I
don't want to. I don't want to do the same
thing that was done to me, even in the opposite
(01:00:13):
realm where I'm sheltering them so much that you know,
and so there has to there's just a balance, and
you can't protect them from everything. They're gonna hear about
church and Christianity and it's everywhere. It's the dominating religion
of this country by a lot, I know, I.
Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Was just telling Maddie. I'm like, like, at this point,
I just I want to live in Denmark or or Norway, Finland,
like Japan. I want to live in a country that
does not have like a religion, a dominant religion at all,
because then I don't have to worry about any laws
being made that have to do with someone's belief system,
(01:00:53):
and I don't have to worry about a religion being
taught in my you know, in a kid's school, like
right among other things like healthcare and education stuff, or
like public transportation that's easy and cheap and like all
the things. But it would just I can't even imagine
(01:01:15):
how that would feel to be in that environment. And
be part of that community where religion is not dominating
conversation and yeah yeah and current events. Yeah, definitely, that's
my dream.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
Yeah, live from Denmark next week.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Yeah, well Lynn is going to spend a semester abroad
on Copenhagen.
Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yes, And at the end of the semester, I'm gonna
go meet them and like, how shall what and how shot?
That's right? And I'm just gonna call Toby and say
I'm not coming home and you want to with me?
Get yourself on a plane. No, no, I just I
(01:02:05):
was telling Toby. I'm like, we got to get all
the kids though, like I can't leave any behind in
another country, Like we got to like get everybody over there.
So yeah, and you'll come to Matt.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Yeah, of course I'm going to figure out how to
get the dogs over there. Yeah, that's my hiccup right now. Yeah,
I want to put them in cargo hold oh, I
know it's I want them to sit in the seat
beside me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Okay, hold their paw.
Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
There's turbulations, turbulence.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
It's a turbulation like aulabulations.
Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
It's all ingrained. You can't get it out.
Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Oh my gosh, Well, do you have any words of
wisdom or parting words that you would like to leave
with our listeners.
Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
Yes, think for yourself. Absolutely, think for yourself. Don't just
go with whatever someone has told you, no matter who
they are. Always research it for yourself, because that's okay
to do. So put yourself first, and your family first,
(01:03:23):
and your mental health forefront, and really research things for
yourself and critically think in all areas of your life.
And if you are caught up in this, if you're
still listening at this point, you've heard what we've gone
through and what I've gone through, And if you're anything
(01:03:44):
like the younger me, I would just really encourage you
to You don't have to accept these wild ideas. You
don't have to. You don't have to believe that it's
better for you to be raped than for a man
to fall in love with a man. You don't have
to believe that. And yeah, love yourself, love the world
(01:04:07):
you're in, experience life to the fullest, and don't don't
be afraid to experience life to the fullest.
Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
I love that this has been so enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
You should be a regular.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
I would love it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
I absolutely Yeah, we definitely need to have you back
because we we do want to do some episodes on
purity culture, just purity culture, because it's it's so big,
it is such a huge component of what we've all
dealt with. So I think that you would be able
to speak to that pretty well.
Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
I would.
Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Oh yeah, thanks for coming.
Speaker 4 (01:04:45):
Yeah, absolutely, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
If you like this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and not basin things like that.
Thanks and we'll talk to you again next week.
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 4 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me. He's speaking through me the Lord.
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're coming to the Lord and if you can take it,
beyond the veil is the chamber. That's the wedding chamber.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
The Lord told me that. But from then on, visions
begin to come. When this comes up on me, it
produces the vision. I'm able to tell people what's wrong
with them, what they must do in life, and the
sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In their life. God is going to be moving vitally
in fot like here.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Both judgments of the.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cult next Door podcast. Quickly,
before we get started, just another reminder to follow us
on our socials, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. We also have
that newer way that you can connect with us, which
is to leave a voice message with a question or
a comment and we might feature it on the show,
speaking of which we're going to play one now from
a listener named Abigail.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Okay, I think i'm recording. I am at the beginning
of So I started listening to this podcast like a
couple of weeks ago, and I'm already at the beginning
of the episode called Substituted Therapy, and I had to
leave a voice message because I'm so annoyed and peeved
by the review. I know y'all did. Y'all weren't, but
(01:46):
I was because I have benefited from listening to this
podcast so much, and I'm so grateful for how you've
done it and how how indeed tell it has been.
I've just literally been going on our long walks in
the evening just to listen to this podcast and feel
(02:08):
my feelings and come out on the other side having
felt my feelings and felt so much solidarity with you guys.
So just to tell my story really quick, well, I
was a Jezebel in my cult, and I wasn't allowed
to be in the cult for very long. They I
ended up getting kicked out after like two years. But
(02:30):
I grew up in a very strong, high control religion,
and so it's been a lot to deconstruct, but I
love your podcast and the way you did it is perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
So yeah, Abigail, thank you very much for that voice message.
It means a lot to Ashley and I both that
people who listen can kind of glean some good from it.
I know it's been cathartic for us, but just to
know that there are other people, you know, however, there
are that it benefits them. That's really important to me,
(03:04):
and I know it is to Ashley as well. Listeners,
if you want to leave a message like Abigail did,
you can find the link on our Instagram bio or
at the top of the episode description for the episode
that you are listening to right now. Also want to
do our double Portion club shoutouts Shanda and Chase, Heather Bartlett,
Carla and Julia B. Thank you all very much for
supporting the podcast. Listener, If you would like to be
(03:27):
in that club, it's ten dollars a month. You get
AD free episodes and this shout out with every episode.
Or you can pay five dollars a month to support
the work and you'll get AD free episodes and I'll
send you a really cool holographic culting source sticker. Also
want to read a review. This one actually came through
this morning, so it's perfect timing. This is a one star,
so let's get into it. Says episode sixty two lost me.
(03:50):
I have loved and told so many people about this
podcast because it felt powerful and raw and needed until
episode sixty two with Taylor. It's okay that the host
and some guests are not Christian. It is okay for
their belief to be a belief in nothing. However, to
dog others and talk about how you can't be Christian
and believe in the Bible. They talk about how they
(04:12):
are smarter than others because they use critical thinking to
disprove beliefs and others don't. I don't care if you
believe in God, Jesus, Buddha, or nothing at all, but
talking down about everyone in a faith system is not okay. Heck,
even talking down about people still in a cult isn't okay.
This episode was gross and I unfollowed everywhere and will
(04:32):
never recommend it again. I got a few new cult
podcasts I can recommend where the host and guests aren't bigoted.
First off, ouch, Amanda, that's a harsh one. I would say.
I'm not gonna spend too much time addressing this one.
I would just say that anybody who has listened to
last week's episode, I think you'll probably be able to
(04:56):
tell that this isn't about Christians. It's about Christianity and
the structure, and as I think I even said during
that episode, the things that you will believe because of
this faith structure, because of this religion, that you otherwise
would not believe, things that you would say and do
(05:16):
and believe in actions that you would take. And I
am lumped into that. By the way, I was a
Christian for well. I was baptized at sixteen years old,
fifteen sixteen years old, and I've been out for five
years and I'm thirty six years old, so you can
do the math on that. I was a Christian for
a very long time. So I understand what it's like
to suppress that critical thinking. I understand what it's like
(05:40):
to believe things quote unquote that you otherwise wouldn't, things
that you don't like, that you don't understand fully, I know.
My intention was to call out religious dogma that I
have found to be incredibly damaging in so many ways
ways that we can't even count. Not to pay on
(06:00):
individual Christians. So listener, whether you agree with me or
you agree with the reviewer, we actually do want to
hear from all of you. So I hope that it's
not a one star, but if it is, go ahead
and give us a review. I actually want to know
on Apple, Spotify wherever you listen, like let us know
what you think, and the same with the voice message,
(06:21):
like reach out. I want to know what you guys
think about these episodes week to week and what you
think about the podcast in general as a whole. So
enough about that, we're going to jump into part two
with Taylor. Let's take a listen, Okay.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
So.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Let's pick it back up so after I'm joining that too.
And I love this conversation though I can talk about
this like all day. I like going back to that
happened at the Capitol and and you said you felt
like that could have been the trigger to start the
(06:59):
deconstruction process, but you were only fourteen and it didn't,
but obviously had a lasting impact on you. What happened
after that point as far as like your faith goes, I.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Was still very much in it. I'd like, once again,
i'd like to say that I had this huge revelation,
and I stood up in that church and good, that's
not right. I walked out, you know, but that's not
what happened. And I kept I was as dedicated as ever.
I accepted it, and I was gonna If a guy
(07:32):
raped me, then it was helping him not be homosexual.
Oh and oh yeah, disgusting, disgusting, and I was terrified.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So when.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
You know, I just I not only wore skirts. I
started wearing leggings underneath my skirts and socks and tennis shoes.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
My ankles were too, yes.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
And it would be ninety degrees out, and that's what
I wanted to wear. I would buy swimsuits that were,
you know, had a skirt that had shorts. Yes, even
even still, I don't wear swimsuits without shorts or a skirt.
And Quincy my husband, we've been married for two and
a half years. I'm an atheist. I don't have I
(08:21):
don't believe in this purity culture. But man, I get
uncomfortable and I have to buy shorts or a skirt
because I'm It's like a subconscious thing. I don't consciously
think if I don't, then a guy's gonna rape me.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
It's but that feeling of discomfort in your body doesn't leave.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And I understand that because I've had similar experiences with that.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
To do, it's hard to un do it all.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It really does. It's awful. And I remember when I
went to college after graduating, so my last year of homeschooling,
So my senior year of high school, I started doing
dual credit classes at Missouri Southern State University and I
(09:13):
quit CC altogether because they don't they don't really believe
in science and my parents, I wanted to do a
scientific degree and so it wasn't going to help me.
And so my mom found the dual credit program at
Southern and was like, well, you can take your math
and your English and get it all out of the way.
(09:34):
And so that's what we did. She I mean, my
mom is so smart about all that. She knew exactly
what to do, exactly how to save money doing it.
So I'm just so grateful for her that she did
that for my senior year. So thanks, mom, You're the best. Yes,
I have a really good mom and a really good dad.
(09:57):
I got some pretty awesome parents. But so that's what
my senior year looked like. And then when I went
to college for real after my senior year and I
like went off to college, lived in the dorms, and
started my freshman year. I decided to pursue a degree
in marine biology because I love sharks, I love the ocean,
(10:21):
I love conservation.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
You know all this O Hey, this girl swims with sharks.
I do, like, you should look at her instagram.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I do. Yeah, it's it's a lot of fun and
I want to protect things like that. So I'm very
environmentally conscious and right now I'm in the fourth best
environmental law school in the nation to try and get
my jd. For environmental lawns and things like that. But
in order to go to law school, you have to
have an undergraduate degree. So I went from marine biology
(10:51):
and my first like science classes were like Bio one
oh one, Bio one oh two, and Bio one oh eight,
So one on one and one o two. Where biology
wanted to Bio one oh eight was biodiversity and that's
where they taught more of the evolution and how we
(11:12):
got biodiversity. I had never learned evolution. My dad had
certain videos that we might we my brother and my sister,
we could all watch and it was about dinosaurs and
things like that. So I was familiar with dinosaurs. I
was familiar with the you know, uh, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Triassic periods,
(11:35):
you know, and all that. But and I'd heard about evolution,
but I'd heard that it was to deceive us, and
evolutions not real and there's no evidence for it, and
people just want to find a way to explain the
world without a god. That's what I was taught the
evolution and science is for. And I went to that
(11:58):
class and they started teaching about evolution. And I remember
after every single class, I would go back to my
dorm and I would open the Bible to Genesis because
I was so scared of believing what I was taught
in class. And at first, you know, I'm just, well,
(12:21):
they're teaching the same things as as my Christian teachers were.
They're teaching me a thing and they want me to
believe it. And the Christian teachers are teaching me a
thing and they want me to believe it. So it's
the same weight. And then I started realizing it's not
the same weight because now I'm doing labs and now
(12:41):
I get to test things for myself. Yes, and now
there's evidence. I've got evidence for evolution. I can see
it happen in a lab.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And you realize science doesn't have a bias.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Exactly, and they say it does and it doesn't. It
doesn't have a.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Bias climate hoax.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Oh I could go on that. Oh geez, but yeah,
they I just started learning more about it and I
started researching for myself. But I would I would go
through Genesis. I bet I read Genesis fifty times, trying
(13:25):
to justify, trying to make it off. Yes, trying to
fit these puzzle pieces together that don't go together, and
people will. You know, I don't like thinking that religion
and science are mutually exclusive, because there are people that
are physicists and Catholic. There are people that have their
(13:48):
PhDs and some really complicated science and they're very much Christian.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
But pretty small.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
It is pretty small, and once again you're you're suspending
critical thinking for this. And I just realized, like, creation
doesn't make sense. There's no evidence for it. And if
I'm going to believe something, I want there to be
evidence for it. And I know I mean, I know
this because my younger self would think this if I
(14:19):
were to listen to myself today, I would say, well,
this liberal college corrupted you.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes, that's not that.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Diminishes my experience, and I don't appreciate that that is,
that's not true. If you want to know how an
atheist thinks or has come to this conclusion, ask them.
Don't rely on your pastor to tell you how atheists
think and why they do what they do. Ask an
(14:47):
atheist and listen. Don't listen to have a comeback and
to make them a project, Listen to them. And that's
what I've been learning. And so I started learning all
of this and learning about science and testing these things
for myself in a lab and seeing all of the
(15:09):
evidence that evolution has and this it's an amazing process.
The world has opened up with possibilities and knowledge that
I was never allowed to learn. Because if you learn
this stuff, if you learn real science, if you do
the labs for yourself, if you really learn it, then
(15:33):
you're gonna realize that what you're taught doesn't make sense.
And they don't.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Want you to know that.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
They want to keep you as sheltered as possible. That's
why they have the curriculum that is catered to Christianity
that everything is through a biblical lens. That's why they
do that because they can't have you thinking for yourself
and you think you are, but you're not.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And it's also why you're supposed to only associate with
like minded people.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Exactly, Iron sharpens Iron heard that, you know, but we
all have. Yeah, yeah, you're not supposed to. Or if
you do, then you have to put on the full
armor of God and minister to them.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
So right, Yeah, if you had friends, this is the
way it was with me growing up, if you had
friends that were not in the church, meaning our church,
like school friends, Like, the point should be that you
are bringing them to Christ because otherwise they're going to
(16:39):
influence you. It can't just be.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Exactly, I'm twelve and we're friends, like you said, it's
a project thing, which, yes, like this sucks.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Man, cannot just be friends because we both like dinosaurs, right,
why can't that be a thing.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Yeah, So it kind of just started with that, but
I still in it. I was still believing it, like
maybe this is just how God does it. I was
still implementing the God of the gaps, right, and this
is just how God does it?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
And did you ever hear Just side note, I remember
at some point when you know it was it could
be proven that there's micro evolution because, like you said,
you're in the lab, you're seeing it. I remember hearing
that that was like something that God did.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
But then like mac macro evolution.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
No, yeah, that was taught in our textbooks at CC
macro versus micro evolution. And I'm going to get a
little science y because I now have a degree in
the science. Micro and macro evolution is the same thing.
Micro is just on a smaller level. So you have
(17:56):
these tiny little changes and then over time, time is
the ingredient for macro evolution. If you take away time
and you say the Earth is six thousand years old,
you can't have that ingredient, so then macro evolution falls apart.
(18:16):
That's not true. The Earth is older than six thousand
years old. It is four point six billion years old
at least as of the current science data that we have.
That is how old the Earth is. That is plenty
of time for micro evolution to have macro evolution, and
(18:38):
we have definitive evidence that the Earth is that old.
So these little bitty changes and evolution is incredibly complex.
It involves genetics, It involves all kinds of geographical adaptations
and things like that. You have your heterogeneous structures, you
(18:59):
have your vestage structures. I could get all into that.
We've got animals that were previously thought to be related.
So we've got bugs and we've got birds. They both
have wings, they both fly, So you might think that
these guys are evolutionarily related, but they're not. We have
(19:20):
genetics that shows that they evolved similar structures based on
the environments that they are required to live in, rather
than they diverged at some point. And so we have
these concepts that are well they are well documented. The
theory of evolution is a theory. This is another thing
(19:41):
that people would say, it's just a theory. Yes, it's
just a guess. Yes, So I'll address that. In the
scientific world, there's certain terms that the scientific world defines
differently than everyday language. Same as in law. So in
law we defined intent differently than how you would in
(20:01):
a normal conversation. So same thing when you're in a specialization,
things are different. So in everyday language, Well, I have
a theory as to my car might not start right now,
maybe it's at a gas maybe, so it's a guess
in everyday language. In science, that's not right. So you
(20:24):
have your your guess, you have your observation, so that's
kind of your your starting point. You have your observation,
and then you have your hypothesis. And your hypothesis isn't
what if I do this, it's almost a prediction. So
your hypothesis and prediction are closely intertwined. They're not the same,
(20:46):
but they're closely intertwined. So I hypothesize that if A
plus B happen, then that'll equal see, and then you
do the experiment and you don't do the experience. You
don't do the experiment once you do it several times,
hundreds of times, decades of times, until it becomes a theory.
(21:11):
We have the theory of gravity. We have cell theory.
We know that gravity exists, We know that cells exist,
atomic theory, we know atoms exist. And you're putting evolution
on a lower pedestal than it actually is. It's on
the same pedestal as gravity, cells, and atoms. So we
(21:34):
have the theory of evolution. The theory explains why a
thing is, how it is. A law is this is
the law that it is, so it's like the scientific equation, right,
but your theory is it's been tested a thousand or
(21:55):
more times and this is the conclusion. We keep arriving conclusion,
and you try as a scientist, you're not trying to
prove something, you're trying to disprove something. That is what
you do as a scientist. You're trying to prove yourself wrong.
And when you can't do that, then you move forward.
(22:16):
So it's also a misconception of science and of the
scientific method, but you're not taught that because you can't.
I can't think that way.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I was so angry when I found out, and that
was in school as well, what actual scientific theory means.
I'm like, okay, well, my entire life, everyone who's used that,
we use that argument that it's just a theory. Yep,
this is just this guy Darwin. He just had this idea,
(22:50):
you know, and he didn't know God.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
They just think he went to the island, looked at
turtles and was like, that's probably it.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah. And I just remember such a heavy emphasis on
the word theory, and then when I actually learned what
it was, I've literally just felt like I have been
so misguided.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, because you have Yeah, yeah, it's unreal because evolution
is how we have medicines, that's how we have antibiotics.
The evolution is the whole reason. Our understanding of evolution
is why we have the scientific progression that we have today.
So it's not a war on science, it's an ignorance
(23:34):
of science. If you're the smartest person in the room,
you're in the wrong room. I've heard that so many times.
Don't go into a class thinking you know everything. Yeah,
and that's what we're taught to do. You put on
the full armor of God when you go to college.
Then these liberals are going to corrupt you, and you're
(23:55):
going to be you know, you have to be guarded
and know that they're going to try and indoctrinate you.
But why why are you so afraid of learning? Why
are you so afraid be Are you afraid that you're
your way of thinking isn't going to make sense?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Right? I mean really, I think there are like almost
like two types of people, some people who want to
be challenged and who aren't. You don't really have an
internalized fear of what they might what conclusions they might
come to. And then you know other people who really
do not want their worldview shaken up at all, Yeah,
(24:37):
because that is such a tumult like tumultuous thing to
go through. And like, I don't want to name anyone,
but like there's someone in my life who this person
is incredibly intelligent, and I feel like there's no way
if we had real discussion that this person would come
(24:59):
out actually being able to defend their beliefs. But I
also know that this person is not someone who wants
any ripples. They do not want any bumps in the road.
They just want to keep living like they're living and
they don't want to know more. And so maybe that's
simplifying it too much, just saying like there's two different types,
(25:20):
but but I definitely feel like I felt in the
category of like I don't want what I believe to
be disproven. Yeah, but then I made that, I made
that transition, and I was like, Okay, well, whatever it is,
it is. Ye, I'm just going to have to accept
that because that process started, and I feel like once
(25:40):
it starts, you can't stop it. I mean, at least
for me, there was no stopping, right you start to
question one thing. Yeah, it's just like we talked about
before the unraveling.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, it's it's an uncomfortable thing and so much so.
I mean, don't don't just believe every don't even believe
me what I'm saying and what I just talked about
with evolution and just the drop in the ocean of
what I just talked about with science. You don't have
to believe me. Look it up for yourself. Yeah, research
(26:12):
it for yourself. Don't take my word for it. That's
bad science. Don't just believe me blindly. Please don't.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
But I think such a hard hurdle with that is
that people are looking for opinions and ideas that are
going to support the beliefs that they already have. And
I know that from personal experience. You know, like there
was I don't remember the name of it, but there
(26:40):
was this video that Kurt and I used to have
and it was about the universe, and the whole point
of the video is that Earth is like specifically placed,
you know, where we just have the view of the
(27:01):
stars and the galaxy, and and that God did that
for us because there aren't any other planet, which is
really funny because like how much how much are we
actually able to see? But but that no other planet
can sustain life and actually has this view and that
(27:21):
is a beautiful concept, you know, And and I clung
to that for a while. There were times where I
doubted before I was really ready at all, and I
would watch that again, yeah, because I was like, okay, okay,
like I'm really trying.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
But then once you're like, once you transition to I'm
not gonna try to find something that supports my worldview.
I'm just gonna listen and see. And that's what I
did with like the Christian apologists and the atheist like debates.
I feel like I watch every single one of them
available to me. And in the beginning, I was looking
(28:00):
for anything on the Christian apologist side that I could
hang on too that was like okay, there, there's that's
why I can believe this, and I could not, I mean,
and then after a while I was just like, okay, well,
this is like piling up on one side.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I'd wake up at night sweating thinking about Bart ermin.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
No, don't bar Bart in your dream.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I was genuinely scared of him, like, because I would
watch like debates and stuff. But the point for me
then was like, yeah, these Christian apologists, like they're going
to get them exact science too.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It's like that's the idea. But but I wouldn't go
read a bar Ermine. I wouldn't go read you know,
these other atheist books and things like that. Was like
that's a bridge too far. And I remember when I
bought what was what's the bart Ermine book How Jesus
became that one? When I bought that one, and I
had it for months, and like Wooden, and this was
(29:04):
early on kind of in my deconstruction, but I had
it sitting on the credenza for months because I was afraid,
because I was still like I don't want to not believe,
but I can feel myself going that way, and I thought, like,
I have a feeling that that's not going to help me,
you know.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
But but the interesting thing with that is I don't
feel like at any point he's trying to convince anyone
of anything. It's very historical. It's like, you know, and
he's talking about when he's talking about Jesus, he's talking
about all the other Jesus before him. You know, the
(29:43):
very same exact born of a virgin died rose three
days later. It's a repeating pattern that you see throughout history.
These stories are all very similar, and so that I
felt like it was more of a history lesson and
for me, but with a lesson that I took. So
(30:08):
you're learning all this in college?
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Is that the trigger? Then? Like you're reading your Bible
every day? But at what point did you just say
I can't, I cannot keep doing this.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
So at that point I was searching desperately with my
whole heart for confirmation bias. So that that's at the
stage I was at in my deconstruction was I was
just like cleaning onto the threads. And one of those
threads was the earth is so perfectly placed for us.
That was one of the threads that I was clinging to.
And the other was matter cannot come from non matter.
(30:44):
That was the other thread I was clinging to. And
so I would just I remember sitting down in the
cafeteria with one of my friends who's a pastor's kid,
and so she was very much into this. She and
I are still very good friends. So I in no
way think that if you're a Christian, you're a bad
person at all. Some of my closest friends are Christian,
(31:07):
you know, and very devoutly, so she's an amazing human being.
But she and I were just talking and I was like, girl,
I don't believe. I don't know how to believe this.
I don't know how to make myself believe this, and
I'm scared because I will burn forever if I don't.
And you know, her answer was the same as everyone else.
(31:29):
You just have to have faith, you just so I
was just trying to will myself to have faith and
to believe in something, but you can't make yourself believe something,
like genuinely believe it, right, And I was just struggling
so much with that, And then I just started really
questioning any other thing, and like, this doesn't make any sense,
(31:51):
Like if I really think about this, this doesn't make sense.
And even if it did make sense, the God is awful. Like,
you know, even if scientifically religion made sense, the God
is terrible. But just based on the scientific way of
thinking and evidence and all of that, nothing makes sense.
(32:12):
And when I came home, it took a long time.
I was in that limbo for a very long time,
and my brother was deconstructing and I had no idea.
Oh and yes, how much older is he? That he
is two years younger. Oh he is, Yes, he went
to College Heights. Oh yep, okay, yeah, he's two years younger.
(32:35):
And he was like, I don't believe this, and I
was like it almost gave me permission to say it.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, like oh it's hard, yeah, the first time to
even say it to yourself.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
And at first I wouldn't say I was an atheist.
I was I think I'm agnostic.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
Yeah, I don't know. And he was like, this doesn't
make sense, and like, you know, College Heights was, you know,
a Christian school in town that he went to, and
so he it wasn't the same as CC, but some
of the things they taught scientifically and all of that
were kind of similar. But you know, we just kind
(33:20):
of started talking about it, and then I was like,
you know, I I can say it out loud, like
this doesn't make sense and it's okay, And it's okay
to say I don't know what happened before the Big Bang? Well,
the Big Bang is when space and time began, So
(33:43):
you're asking what happened before before was a thing, So
that question doesn't make sense. But I don't know, right,
I don't know and I don't know, and I can
say that and.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
That's okay, yes, And.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Learning that when you don't know something, you can't just
oh God, it must be God, it must be magic.
If I don't know, that's not that's not logical. Don't
go there, you know that.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I just a side note feeling like you there's an
answer for everything in Christianity. That That's another thing that
I don't think people realize is changing the way that
they interact, maybe maybe with their family or with their
(34:32):
their children. Because there was a point in time where
I realized it was okay. And maybe other people haven't
experienced this as much, but it was okay if my
child had a question and I did not know, and
it was okay to say, you know, I don't know,
or let me think about that. But I know for me,
I always wanted to have some answer, and I would
(34:54):
sometimes just like almost make up an answer in the moment.
It wasn't that was like trying to lie or anything.
It was just like, there has to be an answer
for this, yeah, and I have to know what it is,
you know. And so I think I think religion impacts
us in so many ways. We don't even know, yes,
And I think that's an important thing to be able
to say to your child. Yeah, I don't know. I
(35:16):
don't have all the answers.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And now our dad had every answer, Oh man?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, should we call him?
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Oh yeah? I mean now with with my kids, you know,
if they're wondering, I mean, they're still like one of
them is learning how to talk, you know, and when
he wants to know something I don't know, let's figure
it out. What happens when you push the cup off
of the table. What happens, Let's figure it out. Let's yeah,
(35:47):
let's knock it off. Let's see what happens, you know.
And just it's okay to learn, it's okay, and it's
okay to not know everything.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Absolutely nothing terrible is gonna happen to you if you
don't know. Yeah, And I always thought, don't tell me.
This is a very loving God, and I'm struggling, and
he sees me struggling so hard trying to understand, and
I want to believe him in him right, but I'm
just not seeing the evidence.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And he doesn't come help me with that, you know
what I mean. And then because I come to a
point where I cannot believe it. Now. I go to hell, right,
like if he really wanted to be like, wouldn't he
have compassion for me that I'm struggling and that I
really wanted this, And it just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
It doesn't. And that's that's the point I read, you know,
for your question, like, I don't believe it. There's no evidence.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
So when you had that conversation with your brother, did
that kind of solidify that for you?
Speaker 4 (36:58):
It made me think about it again because I didn't
want to think about it and I was in that
limbo of searching for confirmation bias. So it made me
start thinking about it again and going through that again,
and it was just such a hard thing and and
I just I just kept thinking about it, and I
was told, you know, don't think, don't don't think about it,
(37:19):
you know, just just believe it, and allowing myself to
think about it for the first time. And it was
liberating and it was terrifying. So one I was working
through everything and then I got to the hurdle of death.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Oh god, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
So then that was like the last hurdle I had,
you know, all like relatives that have died and I'm
going to die. And I used to believe that I
was going to see Grandma again, I was going to
see Grandpa again, and I was gonna, you know, reunite
with my family someday. And I'm not. That's not real.
(38:11):
I have seen my grandparents for the last time. And
that's the fact, and at least until there is evidence
that proves otherwise. And that was a struggle, But that's okay,
(38:38):
because when you have one life to live, you want
to live it and experience everything you can because you
don't have a second chance. And there's almost a beauty
in that. And the fact that I don't have to
(38:58):
live again is almost leaving I mean in all reality.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
So you're like, hopefully this path like reincarnation.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's once you come back and you're like,
damn it, Oh, I have to do it again. I
have to live forever. But yeah, I mean, just.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Do you feel like a lot of people are not
living life as fully as they would, Yes, because they are,
in a sense, living for something in the future. Yes,
And it's that's so sad to me.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Yeah, it is because you want to you don't want
to take this life for granted, because you think you're
going to live forever and you'll have a chance to
do it when you're in heaven or something. You don't
you won't and go go live your life, be happy,
be happy. I mean, of course, don't hurt people, you know,
(40:07):
But like if you want to go on a trip
and hike up a mountain because you can do it. Yes,
you know that you're nothing. You don't have to seek
the approval of some higher being. You don't have to
(40:27):
and go do what makes you happy. And I can
do that. There's no overwhelming threat of what if I
am not doing what I'm called to be doing. What
if I'm not on the path God wants? What if
I'm displeasing him? You know, what if I didn't answer
his calling? And you know, there's none of that anymore.
(40:49):
All those voices are gone. Yeah, and I'm still working
through it, obviously. I don't think I'll ever stop working
through it. But it's death is okay. It's horribly sad.
It is. It is so sad, and it's hard. That's
I know for a lot of people, that's the sticking point.
They don't want to believe that this is the end. Yeah,
(41:11):
and I understand that because that was so hard to
go through, Like, once I die, I won't see my
kids again. Yeah, I mean we have a free country.
You can freedom of religion for now, for now, depending
on where you live, right, I mean you should have
freedom of religion, and so that's and freedom from exactly
(41:36):
you know.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I the death part didn't bother me as much. I
know it did my wife Liz. That's one of the
things because there's that comfort. I keep talking about. The
thing that bothered me because I have a justice complex,
was the idea like, oh, there are people who do
(41:57):
terrible things, just live terrible lives, and there's no justice
for that in the end. Like coming to that realization
like this guy's gonna die never having faced any consequences
for anything like that was the thing for me that
has been the struggle in thinking like those who do
(42:17):
wrong and things that are terrible, like there's maybe no
retribution for any of that, you know, which I think
it's interesting because it's different for everybody when you go
through that process of what are the things that kind
of stick the most, that hurt the most, you know.
But yeah, it's just interesting to see how how people
(42:40):
process those things differently.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
You know, I have to, I have to say this,
so my Okay, so I think I already mentioned this too.
On our first exploratory call that recently had a really
really scary flight. Yes, and just we took off in
a storm. I can still see lightning outside, and you know,
(43:07):
I had one really bad experience. Is the worst turbulence.
I mean like things were hitting the ceiling and stuff.
And this was many years ago, but ever since then,
I have anxiety when I fly, and usually it's totally manageable,
but anytime the weather is bad, like I get a
(43:29):
little scared. And it was very it was bad, okay.
And my youngest son said to me afterwards, He's like,
why were you so scared? And I said, well, I
like really don't want to die in a plane crash,
you know. And he was like, have you not accepted
(43:50):
your own mortality yet?
Speaker 4 (43:52):
Wow? That was deep.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Empty and I just looked at I was not laughing.
I was like, I don't know if I would say that,
but like I'm worried about it hurting or being terrified
right before it happens. Yeah, but he was like so calm,
he I mean, you don't have to put this in here,
(44:16):
but like he and Ryan were sitting next to each other,
and Lena and I were next to each other, and
I was like literally doing Vaguel like vegas breathing because
I was really trying not to have a full blown
panic attack. And so I'm doing these breath counts and
all this, and I'm holding one's hand and i hear
(44:37):
Brandt talking to Ryan, and I'm like, is he actually talking?
The Blaine is silent because it's scary. We're like literally
all over the place and uh. And afterwards Ryan is like, no,
he has a new phobia. He will fly again, but
he's very scared, like he was scared all the other
(44:58):
flights he had to take, like and our connecting flight
and then coming home like a lot of anxiety because
that was a really scary thing. And uh. And he
said while that was happening, brand said to him, what
if this is the day we die? Oh? Cool as
a cucumber, just like and he told me He's like, well,
(45:21):
I mean I just thought if it's my time to die,
like it's time to die. Yeah, I don't think I'm
ever going.
Speaker 4 (45:29):
To get there with death fight, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
And then it's so funny because on the way back,
Ryan said, I can't sit with you, mom because we
can't both be anxious, And I can't sit with Lynn
because Lynn was scared but calm. He was like, I
need someone that has the opposite energy for me, total
indifference to whether we're about to die or not.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Oh my gosh, so.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
The whole all the other flights.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
Ryan said with brand, Wow, that's awesome. Have I been
to like kind of press a lot of anger?
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Okay, you can talk about the anger, because I think
anger is very justified here, Okay, right, I mean I
have thought about, you know, and I've heard this argument too,
like what if children just weren't indoctrinated in anything you
didn't teach them there was a god, you didn't teach them,
(46:38):
there wasn't a god. They got to just grow up
as kids, not without you know, not having this fear
like built into their nervous systems from the very beginning.
And then as adults with fully functioning brains and the
capability of making their own decisions and understanding the world
(47:01):
around them and coming to their own conclusions, they can
choose if they want to be part of a religion
or not. Like what would that look like, why are
we why are we doing it like this?
Speaker 4 (47:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, And so it's just like we've talked about, you know,
autoimmune disease and the physical physiological effects of this type
of trauma. It's real and it has lasting, long term consequences,
and so, you know, I know, just like you said,
(47:39):
people are doing the best they can. I started my
kids in the cult because I thought that was what
was best for them. I thought I needed to do that.
But I hate that in a sense, I like, I
do have guilt about that because I feel like, my God, Ashley,
(48:00):
that's so irresponsible to to indoctrinate your kids or attempt
to indoctrinate them from a very early age to believe
something that they their little brains are literally not capable
of discerning at all. But I just, you know, I
didn't think that way obviously in the beginning, and that's
(48:24):
you know, a process that I've gone through in my
conclusions now. And it's hard when I see that happening
all around me. M hm. It's hard when I see
little kids who are like deciding to accept Jesus when
they're like eight. You know, I'm just like, they don't know,
they've literally never been exposed to any other religion or
(48:45):
any other way of thinking. Yeah, that's not even real.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
Yeah, and pledging your life to something when you're eight,
yeah or younger, I mean, yeah, it's it's disgusting.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Our brains aren't even fully formed until twenty five or something.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, and really just going back to this is living
in our nervous systems. Yeah, it's living in our body.
It causes disease in our bodies. Yeah, you know when
you have when you're living under duress in some way. Yeah,
And obviously there are different there are variations of that.
(49:24):
I feel like we grew up in duress. And my
therapist has said, you you learned like to live in
your sympathetic nervous system, and it's really hard for you
to get into your parasympathetic Like she said, this is
my last session, said, every time I try to get
you in your parasympathetic you run right over me and
(49:47):
go right back into like high alert, you know. And
she was even referencing my body language, and I'm like, god,
you know, it's it's hard to oh that, it's hard
to undo that. And we're like doing that to our kids.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
Yeah, I wish, I mean, they don't remember it, but
I do. I wish that I would not have baptized
my kids. Yeah, and they won't remember it, thank goodness,
But saying that my two month old kids have sins
that need to be forgiven, like that you are now
(50:26):
forgiven of all sins. And I was just talking to
you about this and that the congregations because my kids
are so young. They were baptized when they were like
eight weeks old or something, or maybe a little older
than that, because they were in nick you, but very
very very little. And I did it because it was
tradition my family. I mean I was I was christened
(50:47):
because I was in like a Baptist thing. My husband
was was baptized when he was maybe because it's a
Lutheran thing, so variations within denominations, but it was tradition,
and so I was like, well, yeah, it's fine. It's
just a little water on their heads. It's not a
big deal. And if that's what the tradition is, then
we'll just do it. It's not a big gale.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
And I.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Should have put my foot down because listening to the
pastor and people think that it's not very harmful because
it's just some water and you know, we're just saving
their souls just in case and like things like that, right, Yeah,
and the congregation when a child is that young, the
(51:32):
congregation answers on their behalf that they accept Jesus into
their hearts. So that's what they did. That's what the
congregation did. And then I now forgive you of all
the sins past and present, you know, and these are
my new born babies. And the fact that you think
(51:52):
they've got sins you know, either that they have committed
somehow or will commit, and that you were going to
decide for them because they are babies and incapable of deciding.
You're dedicating their lives to something else. Like they don't
even know what you're doing. And like just thinking about it,
(52:15):
and I know my husband will disagree with me, but
that's messed up.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
That is so messed up.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
And just thinking about it now, you know, hindsight, now
that I'm fully deconstructed, if that's even possible, I'm more
deconstructed than I was at that point. You know, it
is a regret that I have. But I mean, my
dad is literally telling me this yesterday about something different,
(52:41):
but the same thing applies. You could do like should
haves all day. But all you can do is you
made a choice, and now you just move forward, right,
and so you know, you don't beat yourself up about it.
You don't should have your way out of it. Yeah, okay, now,
now what. I don't have to put him in Sunday
(53:03):
school every Sunday. I don't have to put him in
a Christian daycare. I don't have to take him to church.
I don't have to read him the Bible. I don't
have to sing them Jesus Loves You. I don't have to,
and I'm not going to anytime my two year old
(53:24):
makes a mistake. I'm not going to tell him that
this being is looking down from above and man, you
disappointed God. And he's two. He doesn't even know what
he's doing. It's a cause and effect relationship in his brain.
It's not even a wrong, you know. I'm not going
to introduce that to him. So and I'm picking on
(53:45):
my son because he throws more than my daughter does,
same thing for her. But anyway, it's just. But there
is some compassion to be had for parents because my
parents were brainwashed as well. My dad grew up in
(54:07):
a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist Evangelical Christian church.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
And it's kind of just a generational cycle.
Speaker 4 (54:16):
It is. You have to break the generational trauma, and
that's so hard to do. And I'm my mom wasn't
raised in like the really religious thing, but she was
raised Lutheran and then she got really into it with CC.
But I'm proud of my parents too for breaking out
of this and breaking the generational trauma. And we are
(54:38):
all kind of all four doing it. My sister is
still pretty religious, but you know, I'm just proud of them.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:49):
So, I mean, they're well, it takes courage.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
It really does take courage to deconstruct.
Speaker 4 (54:55):
Yeah, And I have parents that are deconstructing and know
what I'm going through and are like, yes, your feelings
are valid and all of that. They don't have that
because they're the first generation to break out of this. Yeah,
So that can I mean, I can't even imagine how
lonely that is for them. And so I've just there
is a lot of compassion to be had, and I
(55:17):
just hope that parents like mine that put their kids
in these programs will have self compassion. And I tell
my parents this, but I mean, you did put us
in this, but this is not your doing. Almost they're not.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
It's they're not the predator, it's not. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (55:44):
So there is self compassion that needs to be had
and needs to be addressed. So and I'm working with
that for myself as well.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, I mean that's an ongoing process for me as well.
I when I got a divorce and I was starting
my deconstruction process, things changed between me and the kids
because you know, then I was questioning everything, and so
(56:12):
I pulled back from anything Bible related with them, you know,
but we had split custody, and you know, I don't
know if I could have affected any type of change,
but I didn't want them to go to the church
(56:33):
with their dad every other week. I put my foot
down when it came to summer camps. Okay, yeah, and
they did go to a couple of them because my
daughter really wanted to go and be with friends. And
that's understandable, but it's not the purpose of those camps, right,
(56:54):
And so at some point, you know, I was like,
I don't want this, Like, but I didn't fight to
keep them out of church every other week. And I
still think about that. I don't know if I would
have had a strong enough case, because outwardly it doesn't
(57:14):
look like a cult, and a lot of what we're
talking about is all culty anyway, you know, so it
could have just been looked at like, well, this is
kind of you know, maybe not entirely mainstream, but it's
just a Christian church, and you know, they're not like
verbally and physically abusing people there, so we can't do
anything like I don't know if that's what would have happened,
(57:36):
but I mean, now, if I was going through that,
now I would fight tooth and nail to keep them out.
But at the time, you know, I didn't. And then
as soon as they you know, were of age, they
themselves had chosen not to go and sound thankful for that,
(57:56):
but it's really hard. It's really hard to look back
at a mindset that you used to have and believe
so wholeheartedly in and and recognize how wrong you were. Yeah,
and that's it. And then, like you're saying, self compassion,
which we talked about earlier, is a very difficult thing
(58:18):
for people to do who were raised in the Christian faith. Yes,
like you're you're evil, you're you're dirty, you're sinful, like
your heart is deceitful, you know what I mean, Like.
Speaker 4 (58:32):
Yeah, you're born into sin, original sin, the concept, and yeah,
you need Jesus, you need him to save you from yourself.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
Yeah, and I've heard recently in evangelical fundamentalist circles, you know,
empathy is bad. Empathy is, you know, causing all these problems.
And so if you can't have empathy for others, how
you're gonna have empathy for yourself? I mean, it's just
I think the self compassion is a difficult thing to
(59:03):
grab a hold of when you've been indoctrinated to believe
that you don't deserve it.
Speaker 5 (59:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (59:11):
Yeah, absolutely, but that's something you know, we have to learn.
Speaker 1 (59:17):
And when you know better, you do better. I had
to like repeat that mantra to myself.
Speaker 4 (59:24):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I am thankful that I am
deconstructing early enough in my kids' lives that they won't
have to experience what I experienced.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yeah, that's that's amazing.
Speaker 4 (59:47):
Yeah, I'm because.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
That cycle is like severed.
Speaker 4 (59:51):
It is it is, and I'm I'm thankful for that.
And but there's to be other things that twenty years later,
I'm going to be like I should have, of course,
you know, I should have protected them from but I
don't want to. I don't want to do the same
thing that was done to me, even in the opposite
(01:00:13):
realm where I'm sheltering them so much that you know,
and so there has to there's just a balance, and
you can't protect them from everything. They're gonna hear about
church and Christianity and it's everywhere. It's the dominating religion
of this country by a lot, I know, I.
Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Was just telling Maddie. I'm like, like, at this point,
I just I want to live in Denmark or or Norway, Finland,
like Japan. I want to live in a country that
does not have like a religion, a dominant religion at all,
because then I don't have to worry about any laws
being made that have to do with someone's belief system,
(01:00:53):
and I don't have to worry about a religion being
taught in my you know, in a kid's school, like
right among other things like healthcare and education stuff, or
like public transportation that's easy and cheap and like all
the things. But it would just I can't even imagine
(01:01:15):
how that would feel to be in that environment. And
be part of that community where religion is not dominating
conversation and yeah yeah and current events. Yeah, definitely, that's
my dream.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
Yeah, live from Denmark next week.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Yeah, well Lynn is going to spend a semester abroad
on Copenhagen.
Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yes, And at the end of the semester, I'm gonna
go meet them and like, how shall what and how shot?
That's right? And I'm just gonna call Toby and say
I'm not coming home and you want to with me?
Get yourself on a plane. No, no, I just I
(01:02:05):
was telling Toby. I'm like, we got to get all
the kids though, like I can't leave any behind in
another country, Like we got to like get everybody over there.
So yeah, and you'll come to Matt.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Yeah, of course I'm going to figure out how to
get the dogs over there. Yeah, that's my hiccup right now. Yeah,
I want to put them in cargo hold oh, I
know it's I want them to sit in the seat
beside me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Okay, hold their paw.
Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
There's turbulations, turbulence.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
It's a turbulation like aulabulations.
Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
It's all ingrained. You can't get it out.
Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Oh my gosh, Well, do you have any words of
wisdom or parting words that you would like to leave
with our listeners.
Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
Yes, think for yourself. Absolutely, think for yourself. Don't just
go with whatever someone has told you, no matter who
they are. Always research it for yourself, because that's okay
to do. So put yourself first, and your family first,
(01:03:23):
and your mental health forefront, and really research things for
yourself and critically think in all areas of your life.
And if you are caught up in this, if you're
still listening at this point, you've heard what we've gone
through and what I've gone through, And if you're anything
(01:03:44):
like the younger me, I would just really encourage you
to You don't have to accept these wild ideas. You
don't have to. You don't have to believe that it's
better for you to be raped than for a man
to fall in love with a man. You don't have
to believe that. And yeah, love yourself, love the world
(01:04:07):
you're in, experience life to the fullest, and don't don't
be afraid to experience life to the fullest.
Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
I love that this has been so enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
You should be a regular.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
I would love it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
I absolutely Yeah, we definitely need to have you back
because we we do want to do some episodes on
purity culture, just purity culture, because it's it's so big,
it is such a huge component of what we've all
dealt with. So I think that you would be able
to speak to that pretty well.
Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
I would.
Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Oh yeah, thanks for coming.
Speaker 4 (01:04:45):
Yeah, absolutely, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
If you like this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and not basin things like that.
Thanks and we'll talk to you again next week.
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