Ep.64: "The Move of God"

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In this episode, sisters Liz and Melanie share their intertwined journey growing up in a high-control religious group known as "the Move." They discuss their family’s early involvement, the group’s strict hierarchy, and the intense teachings focused on being “set apart” and striving for sinless perfection.

From attending conventions to eventually moving to a commune-style farm, they reveal the increasing control, isolation, and challenges they faced—especially as young women. This candid conversation sheds light on the complexities of life inside a cult and the lasting impact it had on their childhood and family dynamics.
#CultSurvivor #HighControlGroup #ReligiousCult #TheMove #CultAwareness #SurvivorStories #FaithAndControl #PodcastStorytelling #FamilyInCult #CultRecovery

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong and.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
He's speaking through me the Lord.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber. That's the wedding chamber. The Lord told me that.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding
back in their life.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
God is going to be moving finally in fot like
he dies before booths judgments for Hello everyone, and welcome
back to the Cult Next Store podcast. Before we get
started with today's episode, another reminder to follow us on
our socials, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, and also a reminder

(01:13):
to go leave us a review, especially on Apple, but
wherever you listen, go leave us a review. Tell us
what you think We also have that other way that
you can connect with us, which is to leave a
voice message with a question or a comment, and we
might feature it on the show. So we've got one
today from Emily Wingard, who is actually Luna's sister, who
we had on the podcast just earlier this month. Let's

(01:35):
take a listen.

Speaker 5 (01:36):
Hi, am, my name's Emily. I am actually Luna's youngest sister,
and I was so excited this morning she let me
know that the episode with her on was out, so
I listened to that and it was just really really
good to hear it, just to hear her perspective and
a public setting, it was was pretty neat. I had

(01:58):
always wanted to tell you guys this since I first
heard your episode or your podcast. Sorry, especially the first
couple of episodes. There was a moment where I thought,
is it possible that my dad had a second family?
Our stories were so similar they yeah, who they were
was just yeah, intensely familiar, and I thought, could it

(02:23):
be that he pulled that off? Obviously not, but anyway, Yeah,
thank you so much for your podcast. It has been
so healing for me, and I know so many people
just even getting to the point of being able to
look at this stuff and call it what it is
and just you know, I'm still working through to programming
and everything. Yeah, I've come a long way, right, but

(02:47):
still so far to go. So just thank you, thank
you for what you're doing and what you share, and yeah,
who you are.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
Well, Emily, thank you so much for leaving that message.
It's funny because we've had that same kind of conversation
with I don't know, maybe three or four people now
where they've said they literally were listening and wondered like,
is it possible that this is the same person, which
just kind of goes to show you there's a pathology there,
there's you can kind of you know, there's a study

(03:17):
to be done about this type of person, and I
just think that's really interesting. Listeners, if you would like
to leave a voice message to potentially have it featured
on the show, you can find the link on our
Instagram bio or at the top of the episode description
for the episode that you're listening to right now. It's
a service called speak Pipe, So you can follow that link,

(03:39):
click record and you can send us a voice message. Also,
as always, got to do our double Portion Club shout
outs Shanda and Chase. Big ups to you guys, Heather Bartlett,
Carla and Julia B. Thank you all very much for
supporting the podcast. Also, if you listener would like to
be in that club, it's ten books a month, get
AD free episodes and this shout out. Or you can

(04:00):
go for the five dollars a month to support the
work and you'll get AD free episodes and we'll send
you a really cool holographic Cult next Door sticker. So
today's episode is part one with mel and Liz. These
are two sisters that again they heard our podcast and
it resonated with them. So many of the things that
we talked about and that guests have been on that

(04:20):
have talked about it resonated with them. So they reached
out maybe a few months ago, and then we said, hey,
why don't we chat and see if this would be
a good fit for the podcast. And it was absolutely
and I really really enjoyed talking to them. Unfortunately, we
had some technical difficulties so Ashley could not be part
of this recording. It's a real bummer, but I know

(04:43):
she's going to enjoy listening to these but I really
enjoyed talking to these two and I think all of
you will really enjoy listening, so let's go for it.
Liz Melanie, thank you both for joining us today. Melanie,
you reached out to us via email. I think or
maybe is on one of our socials when we kind
of put out a call for people to maybe come

(05:05):
on the podcast, and you kind of told a little
bit about your story, and less is the first time
I'm meeting you, but both of you kind of have
an intertwined story, obviously being sisters. So I just want
to kind of jump into it, Melanie, if you want
to kind of start off like just the origin of
your cult story, if you just want to kind of

(05:26):
jump into.

Speaker 6 (05:27):
It, Okay, Yeah, So I'm going to start before the
cult because most you know, most parts of story start
before you actually get into the crazy. But my parents
were hippies, good hippies, and the outcast of their families
in a.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Lot of ways. They were the rebels.

Speaker 6 (05:50):
And they got married when my mom was very young
and my dad was a had been divorced and had
a child, and so they started off their life together
a little crazy at first, because, like I said, their

(06:11):
parents weren't very happy with them and such, and my
mom left college to go get married. And so three
years later they got pregnant with me and they ended
up and I feel like it was when mom was

(06:34):
pregnant with me.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 6 (06:37):
They ended up ran into an old friend who was
a preacher, and my dad, just like on the spot,
got saved. It was very kind of this crazy situation.
He was trying to sell amoy to the preacher and
the preacher said, okay, I'll listen to your story. You know,
I'll listen to your pitch if you'll listen to mine.
And so he walked out of preacher's office being saved

(07:01):
and not selling an am way.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
I don't think.

Speaker 6 (07:06):
So that was when that would have been in seventy nine,
and they were like my mom got saved, like a
month later. They were all in. My dad was already like.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
The worship minister very quickly because he played in bands
and stuff. He's a musician, so he very quickly got
very invested. And then by the time that Liz came along,
which is a couple of years later, then he got
ordained and he was gonna, you know, be a preacher

(07:42):
and that was what that was our life. And so
we were in a very I feel like it was
like Assembly of God type church at that time, and
then we ended up he never found like a place
of a church that could actually support him, so he

(08:06):
always ended up working on the side and then he got.

Speaker 6 (08:11):
Out of ministry somewhat. We moved around a lot the
first few years of our lives, so I would say
by the time that I was five, about five and
a half, that's when we moved to South Carolina, and
because we were in Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina during
that time, and then we moved to South Carolina to

(08:33):
kind of outside of Charleston, and he went to a
church there and he was I don't even know if
he had like a title of like associate pastor or
if he was just gonna, you know, help with the preaching.
I feel like maybe that was his title, but he
was gonna help with the preaching, and he also led
praise and worship. And by that that's when our younger

(09:00):
brother was born, was around that time. So at this point,
my mom's very busy with having, you know, little kids, and.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
My dad is.

Speaker 6 (09:12):
Very involved in church. That our whole life revolved around
wherever Dad was gonna be ministering in some way, and
so at this church, we were there for a little while.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
And then.

Speaker 6 (09:26):
I don't know exactly when it happened, because I know
it was between time I was five and seven, so
that they got invited to come and listen to this
traveling minister. And this traveling minister was part of the move.
That's what it was called, the move or the Move

(09:46):
of God. And this was a group that had been
going on since the sixties. It had they had at
different times. They had like a big following during the
eighties and nine I think was probably its biggest boom.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
So this is.

Speaker 6 (10:03):
Now mid eighties, and this traveling minister came and was
speaking to most of the people from that church that
it was a very small church, and most of the
people from that church and they got invested involved and
decided to go try out, to go test out things and.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Go to one of their conventions. So the conventions were
these times where people from all different places across the
country who were listening to these traveling ministers or preaching
these type of things would come together and have a

(10:45):
conference for like, you know, a few days. It usually
start on Wednesday night and went until Sunday. At Sunday
afternoon and it was in South Georgia, so.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
We went.

Speaker 6 (10:57):
I know that we went the first time. I feel
like it was eighty six summer. It was eighty seven, okay,
I think, yeah, So we went for the first time,
and it's at a convention center, like I think. We
took a somebody's RV, like it was somebody from our

(11:18):
our church and RV, and so our family went down
there in the RV and stayed on the campground and
then we would go to these big meetings that were
they lasted so long. I mean, the preaching was so long.
So it would start like at nine o'clock in the
morning and then go until like one or two in
the afternoon, and they would have two a day, so

(11:41):
you'd have that in the morning and then you have
like a little break and then you'd come back for
it again at like six pm or something and go
until ten.

Speaker 4 (11:48):
And very familiar.

Speaker 6 (11:53):
Yeah, exactly. I remember as a kid, you know, we
were just like bored out of our mind, and we
would always have to sit there through the whole thing,
and we'd like make little palettes around on the floor
around my mom and dad's like you know, chairs just
sleep and stuff. But anyway, So that's how we got started.

(12:17):
That's how we got into it. And then by the
time that I was at you know, seven eight, we
were like full into this type of teaching that was
we were having the Traveling Ministry because there's a group
of a whole bunch of them. They would come through

(12:38):
and preach at our church probably like at least every couple.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Of months, someone would come through.

Speaker 6 (12:45):
And usually when they come through, they come and stay
at our house a lot of times, and so then
we'd go to all the services when they were there,
because it almost would be like a little revival type
thing like they'd have, you know, multiple meetings while they
were there, but also they'd stay at our house, so
then they'd you know, talk to us and everything get

(13:06):
to know us while we were while they were in town.
And then during the week, I mean during the rest
of the month, it would be our who would kind
of be considered our head pastor at that time, and
then my dad would do most of the preaching during
the rest of the time when the Traveling Ministry wasn't
coming through, and we would go to these conventions three

(13:28):
times a year. So we were there and April in
July and in October. So there were very influential parts
of our life, Like we never went on vacations, We
went to convention.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
That was all it worked for our family.

Speaker 6 (13:47):
And as time progressed, it got more and more intense
as far as like how it affected our life, which
we will definitely get into what it looked like we
were teenagers where we actually lived in a commune, because
that was part of it. But I was also gonna

(14:11):
let Liz just kind of give a little background of
what the move was and kind of what it looked
like in general too.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
It started in the sixties, like Mel said, by a
man named Sam Fife, and he was a Baptist preacher,
I think, and he just decided that this was the
end times and that God's chosen people needed to be
set apart and live under a kind of a hierarchy

(14:42):
of authority. So the way that the authority was set
up within the move was you had father ministry, traveling ministry,
and then elders, and the elders were who kind of
were like on the ground leaders for all the little groups.
And then the traveling ministry, like Mel was talking about,
traveled around everybody, you know, could teach everybody. The Word

(15:02):
and the Father ministry traveled sometimes, but they were also
kind of like the top, like if you had an issue,
that's just who you went to. They were the top
of the top of the authority. So part of the theology,
I guess of the move was to be set apart,

(15:24):
so it was to live in these communes and be
not associated with the world. So a lot of these
what we call farms were in remote places like Alaska
or Canada or just remote as remote as you could get,
because you were really supposed to not be involved in
the world. There was no This wasn't an evangelical group,

(15:44):
like we did not go out and try to win
people to Christ at all. It was you stay to
yourself because the world is evil, and so it was global.
There were farms everywhere, but a large concentration of the
farms were in the Alaska, Canada area, but then there

(16:05):
were also small There were farms in Texas and California,
all over the Lower forty eight as well, and then
there were also some groups in the UK, South America, Mexico.
There were groups everywhere, and these conventions would happen. They
had conventions all these different places, so they had the
Georgia conventions that we went to, and they had Texas conventions,

(16:27):
they had Alaska conventions, so they had conventions like all
over and then whoever was in the vicinity would just
go to that. That was like your kind of local
convention that you had to go to.

Speaker 6 (16:39):
Just I think some of the main teachings were that
because you were being set apart, you were being set
above others, including any other church tradition. So they often

(17:00):
talked pretty badly about any other denomination. We were the
chosen ones, and we were the ones that were going
to Their main thing is that we were going to
make it to perfection and that in perfection we were
not going to die. We were going to just move

(17:24):
into the next world and rule as people who were
in perfection of Christ. So it was a lot of
like from the beginning, here were kids, so we don't
know anything different, and we automatically are hearing that. You know,
we're at this higher level than other people.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
You know, we're.

Speaker 6 (17:48):
The special ones. They were very into death to self,
So anything that you would like or enjoy or you
would think of for you was part of the carnal
man and that you know that automatically put you at
odds with what God has for you and with what

(18:12):
God you know for you, being in that place of
eventually coming to perfection. They did not believe that salvation
was just like you get saved and you will go
to heaven someday. It was very much you work for
your salvation and you better be ready when he comes back.

(18:33):
All of our songs, most of our songs that we sang,
were ones that were written by people in the move
and so they were all like scriptures that were commonly
used or talked about things that you know, we're preached
on and stuff like that. So even in our praise
and worship, it was very very just getting their point

(18:58):
across of like this is what this is what we believe.
Were the higher ones.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
You know.

Speaker 6 (19:03):
There was one song that literally it said we're not
going to die. Like it that was like the main
theme of the song that we're not going to die?

Speaker 4 (19:12):
So do you was the not dying part? Was that
because it was the end time and like Jesus was
going to come back any minute, or was it like
even if it's fifty more years, like everyone's just going
to keep living. Or was it more about like what's
about to happen?

Speaker 6 (19:31):
No, it definitely it was. It was that it was
the end times, that it was all going to end,
I mean end as in the world as we know
it was going to end. By the time that we
got into the nineties, they were preaching that two thousand
or actually it was nineteen ninety six, and they had
a whole thing about why it was nineteen ninety six

(19:52):
and not two thousand, like this ridiculousness, but anyway, and
that it was all gonna you know, we were going
to walk with Christ and then and of course it
did not happen, but you know, yeah, I mean it
was even at the point at that point I was
a teenager and they were like, you know, they didn't

(20:12):
want people to get married or like anything like that
because you're not going to need that. And then you
have it a new Earth.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
And you've already covered a little bit of this obviously
in some spots and kind of what sounds like a
little bit more extreme doctrine and teaching. But I wanted
to go back real quick. So when your dad kind
of had his radical you know, when he was saved
and all of that with the Amway and so when

(20:42):
the move came along, what were the major and like,
like I said, you've already said some of them that
are obviously different from nominal Christianity, But what were the
major things that drew your dad to it? Like how
different was it from what he knew beforehand? Like I
always find that interesting, even like with my dad, like
what stuck out to these men that were like, yes,

(21:06):
this thing, this is it? Like what was it, Liz.

Speaker 6 (21:10):
You want to take that one?

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Well, I mean, I think very little of it was
really the theology. I think that he saw a need
and he saw a place where he could be appreciated.
Because at the conventions, very quickly, like with maybe after
the very first convention that we went to, he became

(21:37):
the sound He and a friend of his became the
sound people at the convention, Like they would run the
sound for the entire convention in Georgia every single time.
And I feel like that was something where he felt
like he could fill a need and he felt appreciated,
which is a big deal to my dad. So I
think that's a part of it. I think that was
a part of why it took over our lives so quickly,

(22:01):
was that there was just that constant need. But then
I do think he bought into He bought into it.
I don't know if there's a particular degree why, but yeah,
I think he bought into it to some degree. I
don't know if he ever, I don't know if there

(22:21):
was something that he was like, oh, yes, this is
what I've been looking for. I think, you know, he
was fairly new Christian and he was looking for a
group of people that he could be a part of
and that he could feel like he's growing. And you know,
I'm sure he thought about his family and that it

(22:43):
was a good environment for his family.

Speaker 5 (22:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
I don't know that he was really attracted to the
theology of it. That was never necessarily.

Speaker 6 (22:50):
Now, I do think that he really likes intellectual, higher
learning and type stuff, and that like the way the
preaching was done is you honestly felt like you had
to have some kind of crazy degree in the move
to like understand what they were talking about. It was
like such ridiculousness now that you go back and listen

(23:13):
to it, because we just happened to go back and
listen to.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
A little.

Speaker 6 (23:17):
But they the way it was taught was it was
extremely like higher intelligent type, if I guess, if that
makes any sense, It didn't seem like it was for
just the lowly masses, So I don't know if that
had something to do with it. I know my mom
loves community and feeling like she's a part of a

(23:40):
group of people, and so I think it met ed
neied for her as well in that way. But yeah,
we look back and we're like, why it doesn't make
any sense.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, I just I think it's fascinating, maybe for lack
of a better term, to kind of look at some
of these groups and all the different kinds of people
that are drawn to it for very different reasons, like
for your family maybe, like you said, Liz, it's not
really the theology, it's not this, but no doubt there

(24:14):
are people that were in that group that were drawn
to it because of the whole like we're special, we
have the special knowledge where the special people thing like
I knew people in our background that were very much
drawn to that, and then others that it was more about,
like the community and the theology and the teaching that
was way secondary and that was just accepted because that

(24:35):
was a term of being in the community of the church,
Like you're kind of like, yeah, okay, sure, like you
believe it, but that's not why you join. So I
just I think that's really interesting to kind of get
into that, like what draws people. It's never just one thing, you.

Speaker 6 (24:50):
Know, right, And we have asked them, you know, later
in life, like explain where we are coming from with
the fact that we grew up in it so we
didn't have any reference of anything else, and you know, like,
why would you let us believe this? And they're just like,

(25:13):
we didn't realize. Like I think my Dad's the way
that my dad looks at it is I was going
into this as an adult who understood other things, who
could you know, actually put it in reference to other
things so he could say I listened to a sermon
and I thought, oh well, I'll take what I like
out of that or what I agree with, and then
I'll just throw away the rest. Whereas when you grow

(25:36):
up in it and that's all you know and that's
all you hear, then you assume that all of it
is right, all of it is you know, what you're
supposed to believe. And I don't think that they realized
all the junk that we were getting out of it,
because for them, they were just like, well, that's just dumb.

(25:57):
I just don't believe that.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (26:00):
So yeah, But during that time, so when we were
young and still in Walterboro, we we were homeschooled. So
that was a thing that my parents were going to
do either way, because my mom had already decides, you
want homeschool us back in Georgia. So we were we
were homeschooled, so that was not necessarily a move thing,

(26:22):
but that was just our family thing, and we didn't
back then. Back in the eighties, homeschooling was definitely not
like it is now. So there weren't many people around.
It was very hard to find other homeschoolers. And also
there were no other kids in our church. It was
literally just us.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
For kids in our church.

Speaker 6 (26:43):
Okay, so we were very much like our only friends.
It was just our siblings, and we did occasionally have
other people in our lives that had other children, but
it was just it was not very common for us
to be around other children at all, and then except
when we went to convention and then we could be

(27:04):
around other kids, and sometimes that was a good thing,
sometimes not. We still didn't have a lot of friends
at this point, I mean Liza and I grew up
very much. It was just the two of us as friends.
That like, she was my only friend. But then we
were able to because our group in Walterboro was considered

(27:25):
a city body, that's what they called them. So they
had farms and then they had city bodies. So the
city body, and when I say body, just like the
body of Christ, the city bodies would have it was
a little different. It was a little looser. Like you, yes,
you still listen to the same messages. Yes, you still
had uh because Sam five had died in the seventies,

(27:49):
but he had all these like tapes. They had all
these tapes of his messages, and they had these pamphlets
that he had written and all this stuff. So everybody,
all the adults, you know, would be listening to those
and making sure that you know, they understood and you know,
stayed right with God with all this theology. And but

(28:14):
the city body was not held to.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
As height of.

Speaker 6 (28:19):
Rules, I would say, as like the farm was. So
we were allowed to still, like we went to dance class.
So Liz and I were both in dance and we
could do that, and we were in four ah, we.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Could wear shorts or pants when we weren't at church.

Speaker 6 (28:39):
Yes exactly. That was very exciting. We could even wear
bathing suits and go swimming and did not have to
be like totally covered. I mean there was ghosts, but
you know, oh goodness. But we could interact with other
people that were not part of our group. Now we

(29:01):
had to be careful with that, you know. There was
always the warning of if you don't want the world
to rub off on you, But it wasn't like it
was in the farms, which we got to find out
what that was like later on. But during our i
would say most formative years, we were still living a

(29:28):
at least somewhat normal childhood. We could still play with
kids in our neighborhood and you know, things like that.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
But there was definitely the increasing throughout from from the
time like that we started going to convention and really
getting into the move until we did move to the
farm in nineteen ninety three, there was still a lot
of increasing what do I want to say, like brainwashing

(30:00):
and control. There was a lot of control tactics that
still ended up being used like with my parents, my
parents on us, Like, there was still a lot that
it was ramping up before we ever went to the farm,
and I think that we were kind of the only
young family in that city group, and we were targeted

(30:24):
by certain traveling ministry to try to get us to
move to a farm, because to really be part of
the movie, you really needed to be on a farm,
because that's where you could really be set apart. And
I feel like my parents were really targeted by certain
particular traveling ministers when they would come through and trying
to convince them that we needed to go to a farm,
which I'm sure is what led to us eventually moving

(30:47):
to a farm, even though it wasn't the one that
any of these traveling ministers were at. But yeah, it
definitely like it wasn't a normal childhood even then, even
though it wasn't as it was, wasn't crazy, like it
wasn't totally a farm, but it wasn't normal either, I
would say.

Speaker 4 (31:06):
So the farm part was that something that the original
leader You said it was Fife was his name, right?
Was that something that he prescribed or was that post
him or was he all about that when he was alive.

Speaker 6 (31:21):
No, he was all about that.

Speaker 4 (31:23):
Yeah, okay, gotcha.

Speaker 6 (31:25):
So they had started some of the farms even back
in the sixties, and some of them it was just
horrific kind of things that went on there. You would
hear horror stories about it even when we were in
but it was like, oh, but it's you know, things
are much better now and those you know, some of

(31:46):
the places literally they closed down the whole farm because
it was so terrible what happened to I don't even
know all those stories. I know there was some pretty
severe stuff that went on, but yeah, in the eighties
and nineties, it was like, if you were gonna be
serious about you know, perfection and moving on with God

(32:10):
and the way that you were supposed to and not
being left behind and you know this sinful carnal world
like the Baptist and the Assemblies of God and all
the other places, then you were going to have to
move to a farm because iron sharpened iron, and that's
the only way for that to really happen is when

(32:31):
you're right there with other people. Going back to what
Liz said about it not being normal, I like to
think it was a normal childhood compared to the farm,
but yeah, you're right, it wasn't normal because one of
the things that they were really adamant on was that

(32:53):
that there was a demonic presence in the world and
that it was pretty much always out there ready to
get you. So if you, you know, let any sinful
nature come in, you know, demons could just take over.
So back in the sixties, I think maybe seventies, they
had literal exorcisms with people, and there was one particular

(33:16):
one that was like very well known and they audio
recorded it, so they were called the Jaine Tapes, and
so people would listen to the Jaine Tapes to listen
to this exorcism. It was it's really horrific and weird.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (33:34):
But when I was a child, I was still about
seven or eight, and I was a rebellious child, that's
what you know. I was known as being very rebellious.
I think I was just a normal seven year old,
but that talked back some. But anyway, they decided the
church because I don't even think my my parents necessarily

(33:59):
particularly thought this, but the church decided, like the elders
in the church decided that I had some demonic spirit
like issue, like they you know, because I was a
rebellious seven year old, and so they had me listen
to the Jane tapes. Now, my parents obviously okayed it

(34:22):
because I did it at a house, But I don't
think it was them who decided that I should, but
I think that they went along with it. So at
like seven or eight years old, I'm listening to an
audio recording of an exorcism because I mean being told
that it was because I likely had evil spirits that

(34:46):
were affecting my life.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
So and what were you? Maybe you didn't and don't know. Still,
what were you supposed to do after you listen to
these Like you're supposed to be like, yeah, you're right.
I don't want that, Like I'm just like the.

Speaker 6 (35:06):
Room, right. I think it's supposed to just like scare
me out of doing bad things. I don't know. It's
very confusing because I have a seven year old what
is my youngest that I look at right now, And
I think, first of all, I would never subject her
to something like that, even if, like I wouldn't even

(35:26):
let her watch, you know, a movie that was a
fake exorcism, but certainly not tell her that she needs
to listen to this because she's being too rebellious because
she had you know, she talks back to adults and
I don't know, I'll be honest, I don't know what
their plan was with that.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
I'm sure it was a fear tactic. I'm sure. I
mean that's just what they used, and they were trying
to scare you into better behavior. But I mean, I
believe that they felt like any misbehavior was demonic. So
like what they considered to be misbehavior or doing anything

(36:05):
against what they thought was right, it was considered demonic.
And that was pretty widely known that like, Okay, you've
let you've let a demon take over your life because
you're not living you're not making the choices to live
towards sendless perfection because you're making these choices instead or something.
Even as a strong willed child, right.

Speaker 6 (36:30):
Which Liz was very fortunate, that's right. Yeah, Liz was
very fortunate when she was young that she was very
much a people pleaser and very good at reading the
room and knowing, oh I don't want.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
To do that.

Speaker 6 (36:46):
I think she learned a lot by watching what happened
with me.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
So when do you You've already pointed out some of
this through this progression, you know, and we've talked about
this before or on this podcast, like weird doctrine does
not cult make or high control group. Like you can
say like that's super weird whatever, that doesn't make it
a high control Well, obviously you've already illustrated some of

(37:13):
the things where it's like, okay, you're manipulating people, you're
controlling people. Do you think there was a point, as
far as you guys know, in your kind of journey
through this, where this group kind of jumped the shark
or was it just they were always a cult or
a high control group, you were just being introduced to

(37:35):
the more high control aspects or was there something that
through the progression of it where it's like, okay, now
we've gone to another level where they're controlling things to
a new degree.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Oh, they were a high control group before we ever
got involved. Absolutely, it was you know, I don't know
at what point in the progression with Sam Fife that
potentially happened, although I feel like he set it up
with the hierarchy to be a high control group because
only the Father, you know, only the Father ministry really

(38:09):
knew what God wanted. And you know, so there already
was this, like you, it was already set up to
be a high control group, But I don't know, you know,
if it progressed throughout the seventies and then when he
excuse me, when he died and then everyone else took over.
You know, we came in after that, so we were
never there when Sam fi Fife was alive and running

(38:32):
running things. So I don't know if there was a
transition during that time where it became more high control,
but it absolutely was already a very high control group
when we got involved. It was, but our family progressed
into getting deeper and deeper into the control of the group.

(38:52):
So like we started kind of on the periphery, but
then we just got deeper and deeper into it. And
then when we moved to the farm, that's where it
was like, Okay, now you've completely surrendered yourself to this group. Okay,
So that's sort of I think that's how it went
for us. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (39:11):
Yeah, And some of the things that they did that
were in the line of the control aspect is you
were not allowed to hear from God for yourself or
your family whatever without it going through a line of
all these people that had to agree with whatever you

(39:32):
were doing. So, as an example, when we wanted when
we decided I say we when my parents decided to
move to the farm, even though that was the thing
that everyone had told us that we needed to do,
that was the next step. That was that was the
like destination of where we should be going. We had

(39:54):
to ask for words of wisdom, which meant that they
had to call on the these people who were like
considered the prophets and prophet is that would hear from
God for you, and they would pray and they would
have visions or they would have dreams or whatever, because

(40:15):
they were known as the people who could do that.
And they might have be people that you know, like
they would send it. Maybe somebody would be in Texas,
and maybe somebody would be in Ohio and someone in Georgia,
and they would just have your name and they'd pray
over you and then they would send you those words

(40:38):
of wisdom or whatever the whether it was a vision
or a dream or whatever, they'd send that and they'd
send it to the elders of your local group. Ultimately,
you have to get you have to get words of wisdom,
which means that you have to send off for these

(40:59):
people who can get dreams and visions. They have select
people who are the people who are kind of profits
prophetess whatever, I don't know what they called them, to
be completely honest, but they would be the ones who
would get the dreams and visions for people, and then

(41:20):
they would pray over your name and then whatever dream
or vision they got, they would then send that to
your eldership at the group that you were at, and
then those elders would then interpret those dreams and visions
and decide what that meant for you if you were
And this was used for things like if you were

(41:43):
going to move, if you were going to make any
kind of bigger ish decision in your life, definitely if
you were going to get married, or even well, they
didn't allow dating, but you could have a courtship type

(42:03):
thing that they called walking out a year, and if
you were going to do that, you would have to
have these dreams and visions. And so when the eldership
got back, of course, they were supposed to not be
biased in any way and decide according to if they
how they felt about you, which definitely played into that.

(42:23):
But uh, then they would decide what was what God
was saying of what you could do.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
So in you mean, you mean that God's word wasn't impartial, right, amazing,
it sounded a lot like what they wanted, right.

Speaker 6 (42:43):
So it definitely got used in times where like two
people were interested in courting or dating or were not
dating courting or getting married, and they would just decide, well,
we don't like them, so we're not gonna We're gonna
decide that. These visions and dreams don't mean that you
know that they came together, and it also meant that
type of thing. For if one time, when I was

(43:05):
a teenager, I wanted to move to one of the
farms in Canada, and so I asked for dreams and
visions for that and it came back. I mean, the
thing is it would be something like I saw a
hill and I saw a girl walking up the hill
and her hat was blown off of her head. That

(43:26):
was like what the vision was. And so then they
would decide if this meant that I was supposed to
go to Canada or not, and anyway whatever. It's just
so it was another one of those very controlling situations.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
So with these visions and prophecies and things. So this
was did lay people so to speak, have the gifts
and like visions and things, but you're saying there were
a select group that almost it almost sounds like it
was the oracle that you had to go to.

Speaker 6 (43:58):
Yes, Yes, so there were like certain people who were
they were lay people, but they were decided upon that
they were ones that And I don't even know how
they came about to be that, Like this might be
something that my parents would know, and I just don't.
But I don't know how they became the people. But
I did know a couple of the people, like I

(44:19):
knew of them, and I knew them as people, and
I knew that like this one lady I knew she
would talk about every morning she'd get up at like
six am and she'd go to her little prayer corner
and her you know, sit down in her chair and
the quiet, and she'd pick up the names of those
people that had been sent to her that week, and
then when she would get the word for them, then

(44:41):
she'd write it down and then send it off to
wherever it was supposed to go. But the thing is,
even though even even if they had this amazing gift,
which I'm you know, not going to go into that
right now, but even if they did, it still was
up to the eldership that was in your particular place,

(45:02):
who knew you, who decided what it meant. So that's
where it got really sticky sometimes about these people who
have their own agenda of what they want to see
of you. And they can say it's well, this is
God's word for you.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
But you know, anyway, and I don't want to derail,
but this did I think I've asked other people this question,
even people that were in the group that we were in. Yeah,
did either of you ever have like visions or prophecies
or anything like that yourselves.

Speaker 6 (45:41):
So one time, as a teenager, I had what I
would call a vision. Granted I'm not going to say
that I completely.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
But I was so sold.

Speaker 6 (45:53):
Out for this, I was so bought in. So I
do believe that it also could just be my brain
making up, you know. I mean, I was a teenager,
but I was definitely not one of the ones who
would you know, have like visions or dreams or prophecies.
But I did another time, so I forgot. When I
was like eight or nine, I had this dream, this

(46:15):
very very vivid dream, and it was about the son
of our like head pastor at our in our group.
And my parents decided that it was important that I
tell them, tell the pastor and his wife about it,
and like explain it in detail because it could have meaning.

(46:38):
So I remember telling them and it was not a
nice dream at all. I mean it made their son,
who was probably like eighteen at the time, look really
really bad. And I remember feeling like this horrible guilt
as a like eight year old thinking, I mean I
could tell that they were not happy with me, like

(46:59):
they were angered at a child, you know. But it
was like that was the thing to do. If you
had a dream or vision, you had to share it
because it could mean something.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
I think another part of what we were talking about
is what what made it a cult versus or a
high control group, you know versus. So I feel like
if you just kind of checked the boxes, it definitely
was like isolation. You know, you're supposed to be like
set apart. And I think one of the reasons why
they really wanted you off on the farms was number

(47:33):
one for isolation, but also for financial control because you
had to sell you know, you had to sell it
basically everything you had to give I don't know if
it was half or three quarters of your money to
the farm, like it wasn't just like ten percent tithe
you were now you were like giving everything. And most
of these farms were more or less self sustaining. But

(47:55):
then there might be some people who needed some of
the men of definitely not women might need to go
work off of the farm. But if you did that,
you had to give half of that income to the farm.
So it was sort of like if you went off
to have a job, that was just part of be
contributing to the farm. So some people had jobs on
the farm and some people had them off, but it
was all part of the same thing. You had no yeah,

(48:17):
you couldn't progress for yourself and did they're obviously there
was also like absolute authoritarianism in the sense that it
was like whatever the leader said, where whatever you know,
if if you if the elders of your group were
the leaders that were to answer questions, and that was

(48:37):
the absolute truth, and if it got taken up to
the traveling ministry, then that was the absolute truth. And
if we got taken up to the father ministry, I
mean obviously that's you know. So there's like definite isolation, authoritarianism,
financial control, and even from like a family, something that
we really experience as a family or I felt like
we did. Is they don't was respect like a family

(49:03):
unit so much. It's like all the children are everyone's children.
There isn't really like a family and so everyone can
discipline and raise and whatever. Everyone's children, Everyone's God's children.
So so that was something that we really experienced. I
feel like when we moved to the farm was that
there was there's really not a family unit anymore. You're
just all part of the group. Now everyone's just part

(49:24):
of the group. So those are some of the things.
And then obviously they don't want you to leave, even
though they're not you're not actively recruiting people to come in.
Once you're in, you are not to leave. And if
you choose to leave, then it's you know, like when
our family left, then it was like a black stain
on you know, we were not respected or well, we

(49:47):
were walking away from God ultimately, right, I mean obviously
we were making the choice to go to hell. That
was obvious.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
Yeah, which definitely is a hallmark of high control. Like
if you can't leave, not really like you could leave,
I could leave, Like can you though, Like when you
have that thought where it's like I actually can't because
everything gets blown to bits like well, that should give
a little insight and maybe for people who are listening,

(50:15):
if you are in a group or a relationship that
if you can't make that kind of decision without the
thought like this is going to be nuclear, then you
may be ought to take a closer look. That's kind
of a box that we're looking to check when we're
looking at high control. So anyway, as an aside, but
I did have a question which I think I kind

(50:36):
of know the answer to, But would you say that
this group was always male centric? Was it patriarchical in hierarchy?

Speaker 6 (50:44):
I'm guessing well, interestingly enough, I think Liz and I
have different views on that, so I'm gonna let her
tell her.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Well, I would say it it was, but not in
the sense that like women couldn't do anything, because there
were women elders and ministers, and most of the people
who sought visions and dreams for women, but specifically young
women were villainized, you know that. I would say, like,

(51:15):
the group that was under the most high control of
anyone in the entire cult is young women. And it
was from you know, what you wear and how you
wear your hair, and how you are not to seduce men,
and how you are not to be around men, and
like everything was put on young women as basically like

(51:41):
you you are basically the devil, but we're going to
try to tell you how you can be better, but
every time you turn around, you're basically going to be
the devil, you know what I mean. It's like it
just that's how it felt at least, and both of
us went through being young women in it, and that
was when we experienced the majority already of what we

(52:02):
would consider, you know, abusive situations was when we were
young women. Because that's just really because the young men
did not experience that. You know. The young men, of
course were held to the sinless perfection all those things,
like they're supposed to do all the things that everyone else,
but they're not villainized. And you know, it's just I guess,

(52:25):
like I don't know if that really is patriarchical or not,
but it's definitely like it wasn't the same for men
and women, especially young men and women. In my opinion,
that was my experience, but.

Speaker 6 (52:37):
Melt so well, and that part about the young women
and how we were villainized, absolutely I completely agree with
it's a big part of both of our stories. But
the part that is a little different for me, and
it's only because of what I've gotten what I was
in after the move. I was in other religious situations

(52:59):
where it was very much the women had no say
they had no right to even say anything, And so
that versus what I grew up in, I feel like
it's a little different because in the move, I saw
my mom as an elder. She was the head of
our little we actually made like a little Christian school

(53:24):
at one point where we're at the farm, and my
mom was like the head of that and ran that,
And so I feel like there were definitely places where
women still had a right to speak and speak up
and have a leadership role that in other places I
didn't see that. But I agree completely with the part

(53:46):
of the young women were treated horribly. I mean, yeah,
they were always the Jezebel and pretty much every situation,
would you.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Agree mel that, even like when it in a marriage situation,
I mean, it was very much preached that the woman
was submissive to her husband. The husband was the head
of the household, a husband was the leader, and she
was to be submissive to him.

Speaker 6 (54:15):
Yeah, I guess so, and I think probably even in
the eldership situations where a woman was an elder, it
was always with her husband or if she was like
with some a couple of the ladies at the farm,
they were elders, but it was because they were like,
you know, their husband had died or something like that,

(54:36):
you know, but and they were just older, respected women
in the community. But yeah, you're right, it probably was
more that way than I realized her.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
Notice, I mean it sounds kind of like the you know,
classic which we experienced. I experienced less as a as
you were saying, like as a young man, but that
kind of weaponized purity culture type thing seemed to be
more focused on the women, the young women. Like the

(55:09):
men did have responsibility, but like really it was overall
their fault for being the tempterous type thing. It sounds
like that's right, obviously not just our experience for the
three of us, but like that that's the common things.
It sounds like that's what your group was chugging right
along too.

Speaker 6 (55:27):
So yes, yeah, and one of the going back to
the whole thing, like everybody got to raise the kids,
Like it wasn't just the parent's responsibility. There are some
weird things and that too. You know, it was like
everyone had a voice on how you parented. And I
definitely think that that affected my parents a lot. Even

(55:52):
before the farm, I think they were raising very young children,
and my mom has said multiple times that she never
felt like she was really prepared to be a mom
or a very good mom. And I think a lot
of the reasons she feels that way is because when
she was a young mom, she had all these people

(56:12):
telling her that she was doing it wrong, that they
knew better, and taking over for her in a lot
of ways, leaving her to feel like she couldn't make
decisions for her children because she wasn't going to make
the right decision. And so and they made some weird

(56:34):
They did some weird stuff, like they let us hang
out with this thirty something year old guy by ourselves,
like even go over to his house for overnight visits.
It doesn't make any sense whatsoever that he was one
of our very Like, you got to understand, like this group,

(56:56):
and I know that you came from a small group,
a small church, but this was like I think at
our height, we had like maybe fifteen people. I mean
occasionally we'd have like a bigger group that came together,
and so it would be more like thirty forty, but

(57:19):
like on a regular basis, it was like, you know,
some were closer to twelve to fifteen, and our family
was a large portion of that. We had five kids,
so our family was a large portion of that. And
I think it was just assumed that whoever those people
were in that tight little group were safe for anything,

(57:39):
which was not accurate.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
And that's back when we were in the city group,
you know, back in Hiteboro. We weren't part of the
you know, the farm yet, but there was a prevalence
within the move lots of people experience, especially girls or
women would experienced abuse of some sort and it wasn't

(58:08):
handled well. Either they were just told it was their
fault or they were you know, the person was never
dealt with. And that's basically you know, that happened to
us with this person that I was talking about when
we were kids, and we had the strength to go
to our parents and tell them what happened, and they

(58:31):
came at it with the well, you know, we need
to forgive and accept everybody and love people where they are,
and they and they extended that to this guy who
had abused their children, but didn't you know, didn't have
that same for their kids. You know, they weren't loving
us where we were. They were saying, okay, get over it,

(58:51):
it'll be all right, you're okay now, But.

Speaker 6 (58:55):
Which was very prevalent with the teaching.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Yeah, it was very on par and it happened to
a lot of people. And but you know, it happened
to us even in a city group, not even at
the farm, because that's just the type of mentality that
they had. I can't still can't explain it. I don't
know why they would think that's okay, But it happened
to a lot of girls.

Speaker 6 (59:19):
Yes it did. And if it was bad enough, if
it was considered like a really high offense, then they
would be sent to these places that There was this
one that was in Georgia called the Ridge. It was
a place where they were supposed to really get intense
counseling and they would work them really hard and have

(59:45):
like a really tight schedule. It was almost like a
i don't know, like a rehab or like their own
little version of jail.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
It's like a group home for troubled teens. That's basically
what it was.

Speaker 6 (59:57):
But I mean it was big for adults too that
were like had is shoes. Yeah, so they would if
it was like really bad, they would be sent there.
But never was the law involved. And we're talking about
things that the law needed to be involved, definitely, but
it was like always kept within, you know, had to

(01:00:18):
be kept in the church and in that group.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
What was considered just as an example, as a bad offense,
like what took it to the next level where they
would kind of be sent away.

Speaker 6 (01:00:30):
So I know someone personally who was sent to the
bridge and he had physically pursued a relationship with someone
who was a minor. He was in his early twenties
and they had you know, gone too far and so

(01:00:56):
because she was so young. Now granted she was made
out to be a whore, but he did gets he
did get sent to to the ridge for that, and
he was there for like three months. Now I have
no idea what he got from that, What you know
happened there that made him a rehabilitated person. I don't know,

(01:01:21):
but yeah, that's the one example I have, but there
are more.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
But I think also the woman, you know, a young
woman who might have been abused or in a bad situation.
Who wouldn't just move on, wouldn't just say okay, then
that person could also be sent to the ridge for rehabilitation.
They obviously were not, you know, so it was it

(01:01:47):
was very gray. It's a very grey area.

Speaker 5 (01:01:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
It wasn't like, oh, if you do this, then you're
definitely getting punished. There was no, none of that. I
mean unless you were a woman, but not as a man.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:02:01):
Well, but so often if you were a woman and
you were in these situations, you were just talked about
by everyone. I mean everybody knew what you had done,
that you had seduced this man. Yeah, it was. It
was a lot of just shame, lots of shaming going out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
Yeah, and I think I think that would be generally
true for Crusade Church too. I mean I had that experience.
There were other people who did where with the men,
Like with me as a young fifteen or sixteen however old,
I was like, it's more about like getting me back
in rehabilitated kind of thing exactly. For them, it's more

(01:02:46):
like they're the problem, not like we need to get
them back into a state of grace. It was it
seemed to me looking back for sure, like very different
for the men and the women, especially the young men
and the young women, Like very different.

Speaker 6 (01:03:05):
Yes, when we were listening to your story, there were
so many times where I was like, I know the story.
I tell the story by heart already, so I've lived it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
Yeah, Yeah, when did it transition from the city to
the farm?

Speaker 6 (01:03:25):
You want me to take that, mel Well, you can
just start it off, how about that?

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
So in the summer of nineteen ninety three is when
we decide we actually moved to the farm, and we
chose a small farm in North Carolina. Like I said,
some traveling ministry had really been trying to get our
family to move their places like Florida and some other
places they're trying to get us to move to. And

(01:03:51):
I don't know exactly what went into making that decision
for my parents, other than I.

Speaker 6 (01:03:55):
Know we had visited many places.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Yeah, we traveled around and visited different way and I
know it was sort of thinking about for that move
to move to one. So I don't know exactly why
they chose the one they chose. It was very small,
it was run predominantly only single women were there, but
it wasn't far from where we lived. I don't know
if that played a part. I really don't know why

(01:04:18):
they chose where they chose. But so we moved to
this farm and they built we built a little uh extension,
so there was a house for everyone because everyone that
lived there at that time were all these single women
and there was a single man. But it was just

(01:04:39):
a lot of single people, even though they were older
and so we and they everyone lived in one house.
So we just built an extension onto this house. So
there was this huge U shaped house that everyone lived
in the same house. So you ate, we did eight together.
Everyone used the same laundry, like there was no we
didn't have our own place. We just all lived in
the same house together. And the structure. My dad had

(01:05:04):
to have an outside job because that farm couldn't make
enough income to support itself. So my dad had an
outside job and of course had to bring his money
back to contribute. But we as my mom and the
rest of us were expected to basically run this farm.
So we started. We had huge gardens, we had animals,

(01:05:25):
we had you know, I guess almost like when we
moved there, we kind of took this farm to the
next level because now there was a family, and like
the fact that we had this large family that was
living there. Now we could become a sustainable farm and
it was up to us to make that happen basically,
So it was a lot of free labor, yeah, I mean,

(01:05:46):
and that was it was very imagine that the whole
farm's experience in general was very labor intense. You know.
That was everyone. You know, you you got up and
you worked. That was what you did. So so yeah,
that's how we I mean, how we got there. That's
kind of what it would when we were there. We
did school in the same house, but then you had jobs.

(01:06:10):
Every afternoon, every weekend was spent dawntal dusk you're working outside. Yeah,
that's that was the life there. And we never looked
we only lived twenty minutes from town, but we never
went to town like it was like we just didn't
ever have any outside influence at all, Yeah, at all.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
And was the drive to move from city to farm
just simply for your parents and for all of you
to just be in that next level like kind of
that was the progression, like well we're serious now, let's
go to the upper echelon.

Speaker 6 (01:06:52):
Yes, yeah, very much. And I was very on board
at this point when we moved. I turned fourteen the
week that we moved to the farm, and I I
was a devout move person, I would say. I mean,
I was like very very serious. I was very bought in,

(01:07:16):
and so I was very excited that we were finally
going to get to this upper level where everyone would
know we were serious, this was the real deal. And
Liz did not have that feeling on it at all.
But when we moved there, so we left my older

(01:07:36):
brother to live back where we were moving from in
South Carolina. So it was me at fourteen, Liz would
have been eleven. I guess eleven. Then yeah, okay, so eleven,
and then it was like eight and six. We're our
younger two siblings, and we were moving from a life

(01:07:59):
of very much just suburbia, just living you know, our
little life and you know, playing games at home and
you know, just having being a kid, and we moved
to this farm where we literally were just almost treated
like slaves at times. I mean, it was it was
like hard, hard work. We never got a chance to say, hey,

(01:08:22):
I'm not feeling good today. You know, it was like no,
you were gonna and you be told like one time,
we had this big garden. Well, we went all in
the morning, out in the sun and the heat. We're
picking everything for the garden. We go back and we're
shelling these beans or peas or something, and Liz and

(01:08:42):
I decide to go up into our bedroom where there's
air conditioning, to go shell these peace. Now, we're not
stopping from shelling peace, We're just going where it's cooler,
where it's more comfortable. And it's still going to take
us two hours to shell these after we've already worked
for two hours in the garden and all that. And

(01:09:04):
we got in trouble for doing that because we were
in the air conditioning and we were not suffering in
the way that we should suffering for God. So it
was that kind of crazy control that just made no sense.
Like I look back and I'm like, that makes no
sense whatsoever.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
You know, was the suffering for God kind of a
common thread just for your whole time?

Speaker 6 (01:09:29):
It was because it was, like I said earlier, it
was all about death to self. So if you were
not suffering, you were not in any way in the
right or in the you know, in a place where
God could use you or work through you.

Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
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