September 17, 2025 • 59 mins
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In this episode, Liz and Mel open up about their contrasting experiences growing up on a highly controlled religious farm. Mel shares the difficulties she faced, including being accused of inappropriate behavior and enduring harsh treatment from elders, while Liz reflects on being seen as the favored "golden child".
They discuss the strict rules around music, social interactions, and the demanding work of building a tabernacle and managing farm life. The sisters reveal how these experiences strained their relationship and led to emotional challenges. They also talk about the family’s decision to leave the farm due to mistreatment, the resulting shunning by the community, and the struggle to adjust to life outside, including exploring churches they had been taught to avoid.
Mel recounts her time living in Alaska, where she faced further isolation and accusations, ultimately leading to her early return home.
#cultleaderfathers #cultleaders #psychologyofcults #authoritarianleaders #highcontrolgroups #religiousabuse #spiritualabuse #familytrauma #generationaltrauma #powerandcontrol #cultsurvivorstories #escapingcults #mindcontrol #psychologicalmanipulation #narcissisticabuse #truecrimepodcast #cultawareness #lifeaftercults #toxicleadership #thecultnextdoor
In this episode, Liz and Mel open up about their contrasting experiences growing up on a highly controlled religious farm. Mel shares the difficulties she faced, including being accused of inappropriate behavior and enduring harsh treatment from elders, while Liz reflects on being seen as the favored "golden child".
They discuss the strict rules around music, social interactions, and the demanding work of building a tabernacle and managing farm life. The sisters reveal how these experiences strained their relationship and led to emotional challenges. They also talk about the family’s decision to leave the farm due to mistreatment, the resulting shunning by the community, and the struggle to adjust to life outside, including exploring churches they had been taught to avoid.
Mel recounts her time living in Alaska, where she faced further isolation and accusations, ultimately leading to her early return home.
#cultleaderfathers #cultleaders #psychologyofcults #authoritarianleaders #highcontrolgroups #religiousabuse #spiritualabuse #familytrauma #generationaltrauma #powerandcontrol #cultsurvivorstories #escapingcults #mindcontrol #psychologicalmanipulation #narcissisticabuse #truecrimepodcast #cultawareness #lifeaftercults #toxicleadership #thecultnextdoor
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
He's speaking through me the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber. That's the wedding chamber.
Speaker 5 (00:35):
The Lord told me that.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 6 (00:50):
In their life. God is going to be moving vitally
and bot like he dies before booths judgments.
Speaker 7 (01:00):
For the.
Speaker 6 (01:02):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cult Nextdoor Podcast.
Today's episode is going to be Part two with Mel
and Liz. Before we jump into that, another reminder, please
go follow us on our socials, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok.
Also leave us a review if you haven't yet and
you're a listener and you've been listening for a while
and you like the show, please go leave us a
(01:23):
review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen. It really
does help when other people are looking at the podcast
and they say, hey, this has X amount of reviews,
hundreds of reviews, and it's you know, four point eight,
four point nine, whatever it is, it actually is really
helpful and helping kind of get the podcast and these
stories out to the world a little bit better. Also,
(01:43):
you can leave us a voice message with a question
or our comment and we might feature it on one
of our episodes. We've actually got one from Keddy that
we're going to listen to right now.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Hi, guys, I just want to leave you a message
of encouragement. I am a deconstructed x Mormon, and I
found a lot of the information that you guys have
been sharing about the religious beliefs that you grew up
with are very, very similar to Mormonism. I do believe
Mormonism as a cult. It's just a really financially successful one.
(02:15):
It's mainstream, but that doesn't make it not a cult anyways.
I just want to encourage you. With the bad reviews
you're getting, those are people are going to hate because
you've struck a chord in them and they're afraid, and
so they're reacting with fear, and maybe they're afraid for
a good reason, because you know it's bullshit and there
maybe have a little hint that they're realizing it and
(02:36):
you are helping them on their transition out hopefully. I
think you're doing a great job, and it's just really
exciting to hear you share with other people and for
other people to then come on and say like you've
helped them. The more people we can help deconstruct, the
better I think the better our world will be when
everybody is living for themselves and living for the current
(02:59):
consequences here in real life instead of some mystical fantasy elsewhere. Anyways,
great job. Really like what you guys are doing, and
I hope it just reaches as many people as possible.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Congratulations Kattie.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Thank you so much for leaving that voice message and
for the words of encouragement.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
So listener.
Speaker 6 (03:18):
If you would like to leave a voice message, you
can find the link for that on our Instagram bio
or at the top of the episode description for the
episode that you are listening to right now. Before we
move on, to the episode. We want to do our
double portion club shout outs Shandan Chase, Heather Bartlett, Carla,
Julia b. Thank you all very much for being supporters
(03:39):
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support the podcast, it's ten dollars a month to get
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really cool holographic Cult next Door sticker. So let's jump
into part two with Mel and Liz. Yeah, that kind
of reminds me. I don't know if you guys have
(04:00):
listened to this episode yet. I think we had a
couple with our friend Sandy, and he kind of talked
about like the suffering part being so foreign to him
from where he came from and really hating that because
it was basically just a message was like everything.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Sucks, It's gonna suck. That's that's good.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
You want it to suck. And he's like, does it
have to suck? Does it do we have to does
it have to be total shit?
Speaker 7 (04:25):
Right?
Speaker 5 (04:26):
Exactly?
Speaker 7 (04:26):
And that's honestly been one of the things that I
because I was so bought in. Like I've struggled with
as an adult, is like if I'm enjoying it, if
I like it, I'm like, this gotta be wrong.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Something's gotta be with this.
Speaker 7 (04:40):
Yeah, I'm not suffering.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Yeah, sinful pleasure?
Speaker 7 (04:43):
What exactly? Yeah. So at the farm, not only did
we have all of a sudden, we're moving to this
place where we're having to do all this work and
be like take care of cat. We've never been around
any animals before, Like we had outdoor cats. That was
(05:05):
our extent understanding animals. And now we've got chickens, and
we've got turkeys, and we had like I don't remember
at that time, I feel like it was close to
one hundred head of cattle. It was a lot.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
It was a little.
Speaker 7 (05:22):
Crazy, Yeah, And then all the gardens and all that.
We also were building a tabernacle, which was going to
be our church building because now that we're there and
more people are moving sous. Now more people start moving
down to the farm and they're having their own individual homes,
even though we're still stuck in the home with the
(05:42):
other people. And so now we're going to need a tabernacle.
So we start building. So now we are constructing a building.
We did everything Liz can tell you about tarring the
outside wow when she was like twelve, and how fun
(06:02):
it is to get tar off of your body. Anyway,
we got like what was concrete? We mixed concrete with
our hands because we didn't know what it would do
to you. So for literal weeks our hands were peeling
and anyway, good times. But anyway, so that all that
(06:28):
was going on, but also we were just in this
super super controlled environment. Now we can't like decide that
we want to go get a bowl of cereal before
bed or something. You know, it's like everyone is watching
you and deciding what's okay for you to do, for
(06:48):
you to eat, for you to uh if we had,
of course no TV or anything like that. But we
got in trouble for listening to Michael W. Smith because
it was too too much rock.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Oh which which song particularly, Let's do a little aside,
Let's get in Michael W.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Smith real quick.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Oh gosh, I don't even remember. I feel like it
was the like Great Adventure or something.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
Was that him? Was that Michael W. Smith? No, that's that's.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
Uh the other guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Chapman. I think
Stephen kirsch Chapman. Okay, he's a great venture I don't remember,
but it was doing. It was a really you know,
it would have been in this world something like.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
That, right, Yeah, too secular.
Speaker 7 (07:35):
It was too secular. Wait, they heard it through our
bedroom because underneath our little apartment complex, and I mean
our little apartment that we made was over this big garage. Well,
someone was down the garage working and they heard the
boom boom up above them from the steven I mean
(07:56):
the Michael W. Smith we had or tape. It wouldn't
want a tape even I don't eve think we had
CDs oh man. But yeah, So everything was just highly
highly controlled. And during this time, like right after we
moved there, we had this little our little mini convention
(08:16):
that we had for people in that area. So it
was like people from South Carolina, North Carolina, and they
all came to our little mini convention that we had. Well,
there was someone who came that was a single guy.
He was twenty at the time. He had just turned twenty,
and he was in the Army and stationed at Fort Bragg,
(08:37):
which was very close to where the farm was, and
so he came to the convention and his family was
loosely involved with the move, and so he had found
out about our place through a series of things through
his parents, and within a few months he and I,
(09:00):
you know, it became pretty obvious that he and I
liked each other. Well. The problem then was I was
too young, of course, But not only was I too
young for him, It wasn't really that. It was more
that I was too young to have any kind of
relationship just fine. But they made it into a much
bigger deal than what it really even was. And they
(09:24):
made it out that I was seducing him and taking
him away from what God had for him, because of
course he was the perfect individual that you know, he
could not be sinful in any way, and so.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
He would be deployed.
Speaker 7 (09:44):
Somewhere overseas or across the country, and I would have
to go into these elders meetings. So I started being
pulled into elders meetings when I was like fifteen, and
I was told I was seducing him, I was taking
him away from what God had for him. I was
going to you know, ultimately God's call in his life
(10:08):
could not include me, and that I was going to
ruin it for him, and because I was such a seductress.
Now I'm going to assure you I was not a seductress.
I really truly was not. Was I a fourteen fifteen,
sixteen year old with a crush? Sure, yeah, but it
was not by any means I was doing anything seducing.
(10:31):
And so anyway, that became like a really really hard
time for me because I'm being accused of all the
stuff and he's gone, he's not even having to deal with,
you know, all of it. And they would be a
cute like people would say, oh, I saw you sneaking
in the bushes, but like, first of all, that's not
(10:52):
what happened, and we weren't in the bushes, But even
if we were, why are you not talking to the
grown man about it? Why are you in you know, Like,
it just was crazy. So by the time that I'm
around fifteen and a half sixteen at this point, and
this is when I was fifteen, is when I wanted
(11:14):
to go to Canada because I just wanted to get
away from all of the stuff, you know, and just think, well,
at least that way I'm not with him, so I
can't get accused of doing bad, wrong things. And that's
when they the words came back that I was not
supposed to go to Canada, so I stayed there with
(11:35):
my family. And then by the time I was sixteen,
they pretty much were telling my parents, you're doing a
bad job of parenting. We don't approve of how you're
doing this, and so we're just kind of kind of
take over for you and strip away your rights as
a parent. And so at that time my parents were
(11:59):
both and pretty quickly got excused from being elders because
there were too many issues. And then my dad was
always the one who led praise, Well, he wasn't going
to be able to do that anymore because they felt
(12:20):
like he was in a you know, not in the
right place with the Lord because he was not handling
his family in the proper way. And by the time
I was sixteen and a half is when we decided
to leave. So, Liz, do you want to add anything
(12:40):
before you know this time, like during our farm time.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
My experience at the farm was a little different than
Meles just because I did not want to go at all.
When we left. I quite enjoyed our life at home.
And I think I think dimming from when we were children.
When I was six and my parents had made the
decision not to protect us in that how we talked earlier,
(13:09):
I think I kind of separate. I remember at seven
feeling very much like, all right, no one's protecting me.
It's you know, I gotta take care of myself, and
really like kind of separating myself from my parents mentally
and emotionally. So I think that kind of started me
questioning them and their decisions, even at a very young age.
(13:30):
So I did not at all approve of the decision
to move to the farm. I felt like it was
taking away any normalcy of life that we had. And
I actually I was in dance and horseback riding and
you know, I had I didn't have friends, really, but
I had things going on, and so I was really
upset about it. However, when we got to the farm,
(13:52):
I am also just naturally like love working. I'm just
a hard worker and enjoy like constantly moving in having
something to do. So I ended up being like a
great worker on the farm, and all of these single
women who were running things just took to me and
(14:12):
liked me, and I was like kind of the golden child,
could do no wrong, not like to my parents at all,
but to the people that were leading things. And so
my experience at the farm was not super negative because
I just I mean, I went through teenagehood and a
lot of the same kind of things that you know,
(14:32):
like we couldn't shell peas in the air condition, we
couldn't listen to our music, we could only listen to
tapes of previous conventions and praise and worship and like,
there's a lot of those kind of things that were
like awful, And but my day to day I wasn't
getting questioned and they weren't trying to like control me
(14:52):
because I was doing whatever everybody wanted me to do.
I was working all the time, and I was very agreeable.
So my experience on the farm wasn't in relation to
like the farm itself. Now, I went through a lot
of stuff while we were there, like you know, between
mel and melanized relationship while I was there, as she
(15:16):
kind of navigated this what she's been explaining because we
had been super super close and then so I went
through a lot emotionally during those years, but it wasn't
something I would directly relate to the move so to speak,
or what I was experiencing. Because of that, it was
just more just like what was happening in my life
and hormones and all that kind of stuff, you know,
(15:38):
as a young team. So that's that was kind of
my experience, I think.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
Yeah, And I will say that Liz and I had
been so so tight and so during the farm and
what happened with Dan, it just it kind of pulls
us apart. We were not each other safe place anymore,
which I will admit was a lot of my own
(16:05):
fault of not handling it well for sure. So but yeah,
so at that time we had gotten to where I
kind of resented her for being the one that nobody
was mad at because people were always mad at me.
It was one thing or not, like you know, like
(16:25):
with the listening to the music, they automatically would be like, oh,
it was mel it was Melanie who did that, because
Liz would never do something like that, you know, whatever
it was, it was because Liz was a hard worker
and she was quiet, and she was she was a
favorite for sure. There was this one particular lady that
was an elder that just had it out for me.
(16:47):
She just hated me. I mean, there's no.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
Other way to put it. She just did.
Speaker 7 (16:53):
She just hated me. And she's like fifty something years
old and I was fifteen, and it just didn't matter.
And she treated me really really bad, and she was
one of the main people there, and everybody knew that
she hated me. I don't even think it was ever
a question, like everyone just knew that she just hated me.
But anyway, so it and that was the other thing
(17:16):
is like by the time that you got to be
a teenager, they ultimately treated you as an adult to
the point of what you were expected to do, the
way you're expected to handle yourself, you were supposed to
be like an adult. So it was nothing for a
grown fifty something year old woman to come up and
(17:38):
just totally rem out a fifteen year old because she
just didn't like the way I did something. It was
a very commonplace. So yeah, so the farm itself during
that time, though even during this I'm still like, no,
this is God's way. Yeah it's hard, Yeah, it's terrible,
and these people are treating me bad, but that's going
(18:00):
to get me to perfection. So that's how I still
it's looking at it. And Liz, I think, never bought
into all that at all. She was just like I
just got to get through this, you know, because this
is where my family is. So when we finally decided
to leave, I was really upset. And my dad is
(18:28):
literally leaving to protect me at that point from what's
going on and how everyone's treating me. I would say
that was a large portion of their decision of why
they were leaving. It was not the entire thing, but
that was a very large portion. And so now I'm
like sixteen, and because I've been treated in this way
(18:49):
of like I'm supposed to act like an adult, be
an adult, I assume I and feel like I must
be an adult and can make decisions. And when my
dad is like, we need to get out of this environment.
It's not good, it's not safe, and I was so angry.
I was so angry at him because I felt like
(19:11):
he was taking it. Ultimately, he's saying, Okay, now we're
all going to hell. That's just how it is. Now
it's gonna be able to have a relationship with God again.
I'm like, that's all I've ever known. This is what
you've grown me to be, you know, taught me to
do and be, and now you're telling me that you're
just throwing me out into the world where nothing good
(19:33):
can ever happen. So it was like, because you at
that point, like they had these you know, like like
we said, they had the city bodies ate the farm. Well,
if you're leaving a farm at that point, you're you're
just tossing your life away. It's not like you can
downgrade back to a city body. Now there were some
people who did, but they'd have some kind of story
(19:55):
of why God had to lead them through whatever. We
at that point, we're in rebellion to God by leaving.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Yeah, so leaving the farm is leaving the faith.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
Yes, at this point, yes, completely. And just to explain
the whole thing of like the financial part, because Liz,
you know, touched on that earlier. My dad had had
a thriving photography studio when we lived in South Carolina.
He had built it up and it was like he
(20:32):
was doing really, really well. Well. He sold that and
sold our house and everything to move to the farm
to where we're living in this little apartment part of
the big house where everyone lived. And I honestly, I'm
(20:53):
gonna guess that they never saw much of anything from that,
Like I don't know for sure, I don't know if
you can say, Liz, I think I don't think they
ever saw any of the money from the selling of
all that they just it just all went to the farm,
or at least the majority of it. So then my
dad worked in insurance while we lived on the farm.
(21:16):
And when we left, we are literally leaving our home.
We don't have a home anymore, we have no friends
because all of our friends were in that group, we
have no church anymore. We are literally it's just like
moving out into nothing. So we knew we were gonna leave,
(21:39):
but my dad had to literally go into town and
try to find, you know, a rental house that we
could even move into. And he didn't really have any
money for us to get started, I mean, because everything
was going into the pot at the farm. So I
mean it's literally starting from scratch. So here there and
they're like, I can, yes, they're probably late thirties, my
(22:02):
dad might have been early forties at that point and
have four kids that they've got to find a place,
you know, how to a place for them to live
and starting over because we had nothing and we were
shunned from the farm. Like at first we thought, oh,
we can go back there, and just like be with
them on Sundays for church and stuff, and they told
(22:24):
us we couldn't, that we weren't allowed to come back
because we were sowing distincsion between the members, because they
thought that we were pulling, we were trying to pull
other people to go with us and leave the farm,
to which we were not by any means. But Liz,
you want to go into anything about how that time
was for you, I.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Mean it was a similar to you. I think it
was just very confusing because here we were leaving salvation,
you know, our only chance at salvation, you know, So
it was confusing. And I think watching and Dad deal
with it was confusing. And I you know, now I
(23:03):
have a lot more empathy for what they were going through.
But at the time, I think they were like, Okay,
we're gonna just go back to normal, like a normal
Christian family. Like We're just gonna go be a normal
Christian family, you know. And so, you know, we leave
and they start church shopping. That's it is Presbyterian Baptist,
(23:25):
and like, in our minds, that's the enemy. I mean,
those are the that was just as world as anything else,
or or almost worse, because we were told that those
are the people that were like trying to convince people
they could reach salvation. Yeah, but it was false, so
(23:45):
like the false prophet, those are false prophets, and you know,
and so like we had no way to know anything different,
like whether that's insane or not. We didn't we That's
what we grew up in, so like we didn't know
any different than so to go to these churches. I
remember feeling like I was like fourteen at that time,
(24:05):
and I'm just like, why would we associate with these people?
Why would we even consider going and hearing what this
person has to say, Like that doesn't make any sense
to me. So that was a big I remember that
being a big deal to me because I was like
I don't even want to go, Like it felt wrong
not to go to church, but like I don't want
(24:27):
to go to this church and listen to what this
pastor has to say because I can't trust it. Obviously
he's evil, you know. It's like I remember being that
was a big struggle during that time, and like again
questioning my parents because obviously I always questioned my parents'
decisions and questioning like what they you know, what they
(24:50):
thought they were doing to our family and to like
my younger brother and sister and like how are they
going to know enough to make the right decisions, and
being very concerned for them, Like my little sister was
only like what eight or nine at that time, and yeah,
I think she was nine, so and she was like,
(25:11):
I don't know. I just remember being concerned for them
and their faith and not agreeing with my parents' decisions,
not understanding because you know, my parents there never been
good communicators anyway. But they didn't really communicate why we
were leaving or what was happening. It was just sort
(25:32):
of we knew enough of what was going on to
be like, okay, this must have been the straw that
broke the camel's back. But it was never told like,
hey guys, this is what's happened. We really feel, you know,
we're choosing our family over the farm or that was
that never happened. There was no explanation. It was just
like in the you know, under the cloak of darkness,
(25:53):
we're escaping to this.
Speaker 7 (25:55):
And it did feel that way. It literally was like
we told everyone and we left the next day. Yeah,
oh wow.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
So it was just a really confusing time. I think.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
It was. It was very confusing, and they also didn't
get like dreams or visions for this. There was no
word of knowledge, which was also confusing because we were like, wait,
I thought you had to have that for everything, and
the fact that they would not it was like I
think there was a part of us that was like, wait,
our mom and dad not really like do they not
(26:30):
actually want to go to heaven and be perfect and
walk with God? You know, like what is happening it? Yeah,
it felt very strange.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Yeah, I can't imagine what that scenario would be like
to where Yeah, because when my family left worldwide, like
I don't remember that. I've heard about it, but I
don't know Ashley remembers that process. But like for me,
like thinking about like my parents leaving this group that
we were taught, like no, this is it. It's like
(27:02):
but but you said this is it?
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Where are we going?
Speaker 6 (27:05):
Like what could possibly be different? And then to your
point too, when you were talking about like other churches,
I would agree with you that it was almost looked
at as other churches were worse than if you were
just like an outright atheist, because that is a perversion,
like the perversion of the truth, which is worse, Like
(27:26):
I think my dad would always say something to the
effect an illustration of like you know, having a kool
aid or or having you know, iced tea with a
little strych nine, and it is worse than it just
being like here's the bottle of this is poison.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
I'm telling you, Like.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
That's worse because it's this perversion of a good thing
that leads you astray type thing. It's not outright bad
like atheism is like, well, obviously that's not true, you know,
so yeah, I when you brought that up earlier, it's like, yeah,
I think I would agree with that too, which I
think is another hallmark of that like we are the
only ones who have the right knowledge and the right way.
(28:04):
We're the holders of that knowledge, and everybody else obviously
they are wrong, which is amazing. All these groups, they're
all different now, reveraget, but they all have the one truth.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I don't know, I'm just gonna have to duke it out. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (28:19):
Yeah. And one of the things that happened during our
time at the farm is that we had been really
close to our cousins. We had some cousins that were
the same ages as Liz and I and so we
would like go and spend like, you know, times during
the summer with them and things when we were growing up.
And then we also had grandparents and you know, different
(28:42):
things people that were in our life wouldn't beforehand. Then
we moved to the farm, and they're not completely taken
out of our life, but I think because of the teaching,
and it had gotten so intense at that point with
the whole, Like so my cousins that were Baptists, I
(29:04):
literally just thought, I can't be around them anymore. It's just,
you know, they just they're not a good influence on
me because of that. They're wonderful, sweet people, but I
just felt so strongly that they were they were in
the wrong, you know, and they didn't understand what the
real you know, what really being a Christian was like.
(29:25):
And we also distanced ourselves from our grandparents. One of
our grandmothers actually lived with us, so she came to
the farm with us, but the other side of grandparents.
And so once again, when we leave the farm, we
now are even more isolated from even them because we
(29:47):
had put this wall up between these family members. So
now we're like trying to think, Okay, well, can we
have a relationship with them. Again, they of course thought
that we were off of our rockers living on this
communit commune anyway. But you know, I was like trying
to build relationship with outside people as well. Again, it
was just very it was a very strange, difficult time
(30:11):
for sure. I was just gonna say, then we ended
up in a church that was in some ways beneficial
for us to kind of start our healing soon after
we left, and that it was just a very slow healing.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
And I think that what you were kind of pointing out,
that's a great way to illustrate kind of the different
types of control that can exist because you were not told, hey,
don't associate. You weren't outright told don't associate with this person. Yeah,
but being in the group and the brainwashing for lack
(30:48):
of a better term, that occurs, like you're doing that yourself.
It's like that self auditing that you are doing. It's
not someone telling you. So you couldn't say, like, well,
they are controlling me. They told me not to do
this or to do this, But by virtue of being
in the group, that's what's happening. And I think sometimes
people don't understand that like why I know, Like my
(31:09):
dad would say, like I don't ever tell anybody you know,
like what to do.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
It's like really though, like yeah, maybe you don't.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Say don't do this thing, but they know and everybody knows, like, okay,
if you do that thing, the penalty is spiritual death,
So well, what are you gonna do with that?
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Then?
Speaker 6 (31:27):
Like obviously they're not going to do that thing. You
can say like, well you can do what you want.
It's like, but we know better than that. So I
think that helps to illustrate, like it's it's not always
this outright control, and that doesn't make it lesser now
because someone's not directly telling you. I would, I would
go out on a lemon and say, it's actually often
worse when it's the endoctrination within that you're doing it
(31:51):
yourself now, Like that's.
Speaker 7 (31:53):
Not and I think that's you know why it's so
hard when you leave to get.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
It out of you know, yes, does it just go away?
Speaker 7 (32:01):
It does not go away. This is still part of
who you are. And even though you don't necessarily, even
though you know that's not right, it doesn't just mean
that that's not still the first thing that pops in
your head.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
Yeah, it's nearly impossible to break through all of that.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
I mean, I've only been.
Speaker 6 (32:22):
Out out for actually five years this month, and there
are those things that pop up every day, you now,
where you're like, wow, I do not agree with that.
I don't think that, but there it is, right, you know,
it's just for your whole life, Like you're not going
to flip a switch.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
No, no, and get ready now.
Speaker 7 (32:39):
Because we're thirty years out at this point, are almost
almost thirty years out from when we left the farm,
and I still feel like it is a constant part
of my life where I'm like, wait, is this what
I was brainwashed into thinking or is this actually real?
And what I think and what I believe?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
And I think also one of the issues with the
way that we got out and the lack of closure, yes,
was that and we were teenagers, still older teenagers. It
was just sort of like, Okay, now we got to
pick up the pieces and keep moving and figure life
out for ourselves. Now now no one's telling us, but
(33:24):
we still have this belief. So honestly, I don't think
either of us started working through things until we were
much older. I think both of us had sort of
a epiphany type of moment around thirty for each of
us where it was like, wait a second, this is
you know, all these issues that I'm having, these thoughts
(33:46):
that I'm having, these decisions that I've made over the
last fifteen years, they all traced back to that. And
I think it wasn't until then that we started even
us talking about it, Like we never talked about it
and just.
Speaker 7 (33:59):
Like just behind us, we're not even gonna go there
and discuss what happened.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Which is how our parents still handle it. Wow, which
is part of the problem. Why we handled it that
way what, you know, because it was just it wasn't
dealt with.
Speaker 7 (34:15):
But all, yeah, it was I think it was for them.
It's just like we're just moving on. Let's just move on.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Yeah. Yeah, maybe a little bit survival too.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
I know I've had small periods of that where you're like,
you know what, like maybe it would be better to
work through some of that, but I'm just trying to
like mentally stay alive and that can be tomorrow's problems
and maybe like you extend that out over years and
you're like, I'm just staying alive.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I'm just surviving. That's all it's all I can do.
Speaker 7 (34:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so interesting in that. Interestingly enough, in
our story, we leave the farm, we break ties with
the farm itself, but for whatever reason, we decide to
still stay involved with like the conventions and stuff. To
(35:05):
some degree. We still go to some conventions. And at
one of the conventions soon after we left, we were
told that, you know, we were like they had a
meeting with my parents where the Traveling Ministry and Father
Ministry tell them that they're in sin and you know,
all that, but still we go. I don't know, it
was weird.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Extend was.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
The way to get out of sin to come back
to the farm?
Speaker 7 (35:32):
Oh yeah, yeah and make things right and you know,
go under the covering of the ministry there and all that. Yeah,
But we end up in the summer of was it
ninety seven? I think it was a summer of ninety seven,
(35:53):
is when we go travel around to the farms. Is
that right?
Speaker 5 (35:57):
Okay, so now you kind of have to tell the
story of why don't you do that? Yeah. So when
I was like maybe twelve or thirteen, at one of
the conventions that we went to, one of the farms
from Alaska did a slide show to music that was
showing just shots of their farm. It was very well done,
(36:23):
very well produced to put to this music. And this
farm uses draft horses for their like farming and stuff.
So I watch I'm like thirteen, and I watched this thing,
this video or this slide show, and it is of
the most beautiful place I've ever seen with these draft
horses that these young people are riding, and like it
(36:46):
just looked so idyllic and amazing. And at that point,
I'm like, Okay, well, if we're going to be doing this,
like we should be doing it there, you know, because
like I love horses, and I.
Speaker 7 (36:58):
Was just like.
Speaker 5 (37:00):
So at that time, I just fell in love with
that place. It's called the land. It was just one
of the farms adding nothing about it other than this thing,
and I was just like I have to go there.
I had just I have to go there. Now, when
all this happened, we're still like totally entrenched and you know,
we're still there. So then fast forward to the summer
(37:22):
that we left the farm. Melanie was graduating from high
school and our grandmother had made this had said that
whenever one of us graduate from high school, we can
take a trip. So Mel's trip was to go to
Prince Edward Island. So my grandmother, my mother, and Melanie
and I. Because I got to I was asked to
(37:44):
tag along as a companion.
Speaker 7 (37:47):
Flew to that you get to go with us.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
You probably it wasn't my jam at all. But we
flew to Boston. We did this whole trip, and on
when we get back to Boston to fly back home
to Atlanta, the airline that we have flown on closed down,
like literally closed day, like literally like no more flights.
So we get we were stuck. And so my aunt,
(38:10):
who flew a lot, had a lot of frequent flyer miles, says,
I'll get you home. And she says, so it turns
out that I can fly you anywhere around trip and
you'll just stop over in Atlanta, and as long as
you do the rest of the flight in the next year,
you can go anywhere you want to go in the US. So,
at like eleven o'clock that night, my mother, now, granted
we've just left, like we're a month out of leaving
(38:32):
the farm, right, my mother says, Hey, Liz, you still
want to go to Alaska? And I'm like yeah, So
then we plan So we booked tickets to Alaska that night. Yeah,
that we have to use within the next year for
the three of us, Melanie, myself, and the intention that
we are going to go visit at least this one farm,
(38:53):
if not others. Right, So that's why, like, we never
would have just outright bought tickets to go to Alaska.
Never would have happened. I never would have gone there.
But so then the next summer, the following summer, and
now we're like, now we've gone through a year of
being out. Now we've gone through year of all of
this trauma and progression, and then we go visit.
Speaker 7 (39:16):
And I'm also now engaged to the guy, the guy
who was in the army, So I'm now engaged to him.
And that was not allowed because we didn't walk out
a year, which was the whole thing at the farm,
which was a whole ridiculous thing. But you had to
walk out a year first before you could get to
the point of being engaged. So I was already insin
(39:39):
according to them, with that too. But we're yeah, so
now we're going down this trip and we Mom has
now decided that we're gonna go visit not just the land,
but we're going to go to I think we visited
like four different farms. So we're gonna go to four
different farms up in Alaska, and we're really just at
their mercy. They had to come pick us up from
(40:01):
the airport. They have to transport us to the next farm,
which sometimes was literally like six hours away, and they're
gonna we're gonna go just stay with them, with whoever
has decided to host us, whichever family, and we're gonna
just live with them for like a few days and
then move on to the next one and so forth.
Speaker 5 (40:19):
So Licy want to go ahead.
Speaker 7 (40:23):
Because this is more your thing.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
So we go to the first farm and it is
the one of the oldest farms in Alaska. They one
of the ones that was I think from the seventies.
It's really old. But we spent a few days there
and I fell in love with it. Not only was
it just obviously beautiful, but it I just love the people,
(40:49):
and we were working like at that place. The way
that they integrated us was hey, do you want to
go work with us? And so we got to go work,
which is totally my thing. I love that, So I
just loved it. I really had a great time there
and really enjoyed it. And then we moved on to
(41:09):
the next place, which I don't remember a lot of
drama at that place. The next place, which was this
White Stone, was all drama.
Speaker 7 (41:17):
It was all drama.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
My mom was like, of course at this point, the
black cloud was hanging over my mother, so she I felt, yeah, yeah,
it was not a good thing.
Speaker 7 (41:33):
But we get there and like at Sapa, which is
the first place we went, they did they just integrated
us into like all the stuff that they were doing,
and we were like on the work schedule and we
knew when everybody's going to eat, and we're just going
to hanging out and just being a part of everything.
And then we go to the next place and they
literally just stick us in a room and forget that
we're there. They don't tell us where to go to eat,
(41:54):
they don't tell us anything.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
We literally were.
Speaker 7 (41:56):
Just like stuck in this room. It was so weird.
And then finally we go we do kind of push
ourselves into like what they're doing, and after like three days,
my mom gets up in the middle of like the
dining room where a hundred at least one hundred people
are eating and you know, and they're like, well, would
(42:17):
you like to say something before you leave? And my
mom was like, you guys are horrible. You have not
been hospitable at all. You've all been rude, no one.
It was hilarious. Oh, man, looking back, it's very funny.
At the time, we were both stoky, miliated and listen.
I were like, oh God, please let.
Speaker 6 (42:35):
Us hide something, and was this like, you guys suck.
Can you please take us to the next farm.
Speaker 7 (42:43):
This place you had to like take a little boat
even just to get over to where you could get
in a car somewhere.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
She might have to saved that, like thanks for drafting
thes uf.
Speaker 7 (43:00):
Man, Oh, that's too funny.
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Then we go to the land next though, right, Yeah,
Then we went to the land and it also was
not particularly friendly or hospital. I mean, they tried. They
were way better than white Stone, but it wasn't. I
don't know. I didn't. I didn't connect at all at
the land. And I also wasn't feeling well almost the
(43:24):
whole time we were there, and I did so that
didn't help. But yeah, I did not connect at the land,
and I know Mel had a terrible experience taking my
place riding the horses that made such a deal.
Speaker 7 (43:37):
But my first and probably only like time where I
literally thought I was gonna die and fall off of
this draft horse justying. It's okay, that's still here, oh dear.
But yeah there. It was like they kind of had
(43:57):
like a little youth group kind of thing, so that
was kind of cool. We're like, oh, this is kind
of cool, Like the youth are able to go off
and do things by themselves and not just be like
superly superly heavily watched. So we thought that was interesting.
But that was like the only redeeming value that we
found from that visit.
Speaker 5 (44:16):
I feel like, yeah, I think the people just were
not super warm or something. I don't know, I just
I wasn't really attract anyway. Long story short, we go
back home and my family's like, so you still want
to go to the land, like cause I had. It
wasn't super uncommon for teenagers that were part of like
(44:36):
city bodies to go to a farm, and the move
did have its own college that was at a couple
of places, so like it was very common for college
aged kids to go to one of the farms and
go to college. So like it wasn't like even though
we were in a farm, it was a small farm,
so it wouldn't have been crazy to think about me
(44:56):
like actually going to one of these farms for like
cool or you know, to live. And so after that trip,
my family is like, hey, do you want to still
go to the land And I was like, no, I
do not, but I really like Sepa. I want to
go there. And so in three months I was living
at Sapa.
Speaker 7 (45:18):
Yeah, as a fifteen year old.
Speaker 5 (45:21):
On my own.
Speaker 7 (45:21):
She went there. Wow.
Speaker 5 (45:24):
Yeah, And that was See this is.
Speaker 7 (45:26):
Another one of those weird things to me that where
they treated us almost like adults, like we had we
could meet these decisions that I don't even feel like
Mom and Dad had that much to say about it.
They were just like, oh, if that's what you want
to do, sharelest do that.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Yeah it was yeah, it was more just like, oh, well,
I guess that's I mean, because we did have we
did get visions and because I mean that's something that
SAPER requires, so you know, we did get visions and
words of affirmation and all that, and maybe it was
looked at within the move is like we can save
one of them, you know, I don't know, because I
(46:05):
mean in resspect. Why did the move accept me back,
I don't know, but but yeah, it was more just like, okay, well,
this is what God wants, so we're going to move
heaven and earth to make it happen. Because we had
to figure out how to get me there. I had
braces at the time, but I wasn't going to have
an orthodonosaurs. I had to get my braces taken off early,
(46:27):
you know, just like all these random things that had
to happen in three months so that I could get
there in time to start school for the next school year.
So yeah, it was pretty It's crazy that that happened.
It's crazy that I was allowed to do that, and
that I went there. And then once I got there,
(46:47):
the structure was to live people who came there, you know,
teenagers or whatever, just lived with a family. And so
I lived with this couple who had just gotten married
their like early forties, and they had just gotten married
their first marriage, and and I was put with them,
(47:10):
and me and one other girl were put in their
log cabin.
Speaker 7 (47:15):
And by the way, they did not have running water.
Speaker 5 (47:21):
Or regular or much electricity.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Very cool, very cool.
Speaker 5 (47:25):
Yeah, outhouses and washing your clothes by hand, I mean's
you know, if you're going to have the Alaskan experience,
that's the way to go.
Speaker 7 (47:33):
Just go ahead and have it all the way.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
So anyway, this the woman of the couple that I
was living with, had just literally just moved because she
got married and moved to be with her husband. Here
from the ridge, which we had previously talked about is
the place where people go to get rehabilitated. And she
was like kind of a dorm mom to young women
(48:02):
who needed to be rehabilitated. She didn't know how to
be around normal people. And my roommate was also I
don't want to say she was troubled, but she was.
She had some things going on where she could benefit
(48:23):
from the instruction that this woman had. Whereas I was
like the golden child. I was the go with the flow,
do what needs to be done, happy to just you know,
whatever you need from me. And she didn't that. She
didn't appreciate that. So she spent the next year doing
(48:44):
everything in her power to make my life a living hell.
And she did and then and do it. And then
there was a whole process of the elders ended up
saying that I liked boys and trying to put you know,
I was getting called into elders meetings about me being
(49:07):
a seductress and like being an awful person. I ended
up getting super sick while I was there, and I
was like bettering for two weeks and like no one
would take care of me. But they were just like,
what's wrong with you? Get up and work and and.
Speaker 7 (49:25):
Well, I did believe that if you were sick or anything,
it was likely because your relationship with God was not
in a good place.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
And I do think that that there probably was a
stigma on me already just because of the family. I
think they're definitely oh, I'm.
Speaker 7 (49:40):
Sure, yes.
Speaker 5 (49:44):
But eventually and I would call home and I would
talk to my parents, and my mom was just like, well,
you know, this is this is your boot camp. Because
I was always wanted to go into the military. So
she's like, just think about it, like boot camp. This
is your boot camp, and you can handle anything and
you can get through this, and you know, just like
not validating my experience at all, just being like, you know,
(50:08):
suck it up, move on. At least there was a
part of that.
Speaker 7 (50:10):
That was like I am thousands of miles away and
there is nothing I can do to help you too.
Speaker 5 (50:16):
Yeah, but yeah, but eventually there was I had really
gotten to the point where because of the people I
lived with, they just ostracized me from everyone. I wasn't
really allowed to leave my house other than to school
and work, and I really wasn't allowed to have friends
or even though like, yeah, that kind of was a
whole point was anyway, I really wasn't allowed to like
(50:37):
communicate with anyone or talk to anyone. But the loot
youth group kind of leader was this guy, and for
whatever reason, I was kind of allowed to talk to him,
and because he was like helping tutor me in some
of my classes or like I was doing some extracurricular
projects with him and stuff, so he was an okay person.
(50:58):
So he and I became close in the sense that
I could talk to him, and eventually they decided that
I liked him and that I was trying to seduce him,
and so I started getting pulled into meetings about that,
and to me, that was like the furthest thing, Like
he was twice my age and like I never would
(51:21):
ever have thought about him that way at all. It
was just like literally the only person I could talk
to and he was nice to me. So I was
really upset by that. And then there actually was a
person that I really liked and I had told him that,
and then he told the elders that, So then I
got then there were restrictions put around the person that
I really did, Like I wasn't allowed to even go
(51:43):
towart near his house, even though his sister was one
of my best friends. I like had to cut off
all of that, like all communication. Basically, I got to
a point where it was like I wasn't allowed to
do anything or talk to anyone, and if I even
looked in the wrong direction. Literally they would say, if
I walked into the building and I looked in the
direction of one of these men, I was getting pulled
(52:04):
into it, into an elders meet. So just ridiculousness and
also completely unfounded. And eventually, you know, I got pretty
like I don't know what to do, and I I
guess I was expressing that to my parents. So at
one point my dad calls me or I yeah, he
called me, And there's only two phones in the whole farm,
(52:25):
and they were in the tabernacle building, and I think
they were connected. So people probably always listened. But anyway,
he called and I went to a little phone booth
and he was like, you're coming home. And I was
like what what you know? Because I still had like
a month left on my sentence there and and and
(52:46):
so I'm like no, you know, I was like, no,
I have to finish it, because you know that's kind
of what had been pounded and you just finish it.
You can get through it. Just finished this. I'm like, no,
I have to finish it. I have to finish this.
And he was like, no, we need you at home.
And you know it's there's bat's you know, I don't
like how they're true you and whatever. And he was
completely valid and the one time in my life that
he like stood up for me. And so so then
(53:08):
I had to leave. He's like, go get brother Terry,
who's like one of the top. He's like, go get
him and put him on the phone. So I had
to like leave that little phone booth and go in
the middle of meal, a meal where he's eating, and
go tell brother Terry. And then he goes in there
and talks to my dad and then he comes out,
like very angrily, comes out to my table and it's
like we need to talk after you finish eating. So
(53:30):
then I get pulled started. So then it's like two
weeks before I'm leaving. So then it is every single day,
multiple times, I'm in meetings, constant meetings of like why
are you leaving? What did he say? What are you
gonna say? What have you told them? Like just all
this stuff, and I'm like just an innocent shy. I mean,
I was sixteen at this point, but still like, no,
(53:50):
I was not the strong willed, outspoken person that my
master was. That's not that person. So I'm just like
I don't know what to say, and so and then
that just kept going, and eventually I was honest with
one of the leaders and a couple of the younger
people about what was actually happening at the house that
(54:12):
I lived in, and the one leader did say he
was like, yeah, in retrospect, we never should have put
anyone with them, and they were not ready to be,
you know, ahead of household family and whatever. So he
did kind of apologize, which was nice, But because my
experience was one hundred and fifty percent different than every
(54:34):
other girl who was there as a transplant, like and
everyone else who was there, because I knew them. There
was probably four other girls there other than me, living
in other houses. They did not have this negative experience.
This was just I was targeted and so so then
I left. And then right after I left, we went
(54:59):
to a convention and and the father Ministry who were
over that farm, so like their father ministry who lived there,
and they're kind of like over that farm, but they
were traveling for months, so they hadn't been there when
all of this stuff was going down over like the
previous three months. They asked to speak with me at
(55:21):
the convention. So I went and had to sit down
with them, and they were like, we just want you
to know that that youth pastor had gone to the
elders and said that he was interested in you and
that's why that all happened. But I didn't know that,
Like he didn't tell me, no one else told me.
(55:43):
They just started telling me that I was seducing him,
and I'm like, I'm not seducing him. So I got
so I was really really grateful. I don't know why
they if they were super sweet people, So I was
really grateful that they told me that because I had
been I was so confused. I was like what have
I done, you know to it? Just I had never
experienced anything like that in my whole life, where people
(56:05):
were just out to get me and making up lies
about me and you know, turning me into the villain
when I hadn't done anything, And so I was really confused.
And it doesn't explain the lady that I lived with
and how how she treated me. But at least I
kind of had a window into what started that whole thing,
(56:25):
when the whole all of the elders became against me
and everyone was calling me like this evil person, and
like I just couldn't figure it out. So it was
nice to kind of have that knowledge, and I think
it provided a little bit of closure of that for me.
But yeah, so then I like technically was the last
one of our family to officially leave. I guess in
(56:50):
nineteen ninety eight was when I was when I finally
came home from a last.
Speaker 7 (56:54):
And it was once again against your will and not
a choice that you were making.
Speaker 5 (56:58):
True. Yeah, well yeah I wasn't. But yeah, but I
don't think I I don't think I resented anyone for that.
I was upset about not finishing a job that I started,
you know, but none of it was ever. I was
never bought in right to the religion of it. I
(57:19):
was never bought into that this is the answer, this
is my salvation. I didn't know any better. But I
also was never bought into it. You know, I questioned
everything about it. It never felt right to me. None
of it felt right to me. So then when I
was like just attacked the way I was when I
was in Alaska, I was like, Okay, this isn't this
(57:41):
isn't good. I don't want to be a part of this,
you know. So I don't know. I didn't have It
wasn't like a religious crisis for me to leave, and
I had already spent that year away from the farm,
So I don't know, you know, it didn't feel it
didn't feel was super confusing. I guess at that point
(58:02):
it was just like I it was, I don't know.
I think I was in denial for a while. It
was just kind of a whirlwind of what just happened,
you know. It was just like all of a sudden,
I went from living with my parents to living in Alaska,
like all of a sudden, and then all of this happened,
and then I'm home and it's like, wait, this is
just a bad dream, you know. So it was, and
(58:23):
I don't think I still don't know that I've processed
that part of all of this. I don't, you know.
It's something I just kind of locked away and I
just don't, you know, I don't go there in my mind.
And also because I was the only one, like, there's
no one to talk about it with, right, just no
one else experienced it with me, so I can't, like
(58:44):
with everything else, I can talk to my family, but
no one else was there to experience it. So it
just feels a bit like a black hole in my life. Yeah,
this weird experience.
Speaker 6 (58:55):
If you liked this episode, please go leave us a
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to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
No one else is telling you the things that God
is telling you through me.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
He's speaking through me the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber. That's the wedding chamber.
Speaker 5 (00:35):
The Lord told me that.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 6 (00:50):
In their life. God is going to be moving vitally
and bot like he dies before booths judgments.
Speaker 7 (01:00):
For the.
Speaker 6 (01:02):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cult Nextdoor Podcast.
Today's episode is going to be Part two with Mel
and Liz. Before we jump into that, another reminder, please
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(01:23):
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(01:43):
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Speaker 1 (01:53):
Hi, guys, I just want to leave you a message
of encouragement. I am a deconstructed x Mormon, and I
found a lot of the information that you guys have
been sharing about the religious beliefs that you grew up
with are very, very similar to Mormonism. I do believe
Mormonism as a cult. It's just a really financially successful one.
(02:15):
It's mainstream, but that doesn't make it not a cult anyways.
I just want to encourage you. With the bad reviews
you're getting, those are people are going to hate because
you've struck a chord in them and they're afraid, and
so they're reacting with fear, and maybe they're afraid for
a good reason, because you know it's bullshit and there
maybe have a little hint that they're realizing it and
(02:36):
you are helping them on their transition out hopefully. I
think you're doing a great job, and it's just really
exciting to hear you share with other people and for
other people to then come on and say like you've
helped them. The more people we can help deconstruct, the
better I think the better our world will be when
everybody is living for themselves and living for the current
(02:59):
consequences here in real life instead of some mystical fantasy elsewhere. Anyways,
great job. Really like what you guys are doing, and
I hope it just reaches as many people as possible.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Congratulations Kattie.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Thank you so much for leaving that voice message and
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Speaker 4 (03:18):
So listener.
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If you would like to leave a voice message, you
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really cool holographic Cult next Door sticker. So let's jump
into part two with Mel and Liz. Yeah, that kind
of reminds me. I don't know if you guys have
(04:00):
listened to this episode yet. I think we had a
couple with our friend Sandy, and he kind of talked
about like the suffering part being so foreign to him
from where he came from and really hating that because
it was basically just a message was like everything.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Sucks, It's gonna suck. That's that's good.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
You want it to suck. And he's like, does it
have to suck? Does it do we have to does
it have to be total shit?
Speaker 7 (04:25):
Right?
Speaker 5 (04:26):
Exactly?
Speaker 7 (04:26):
And that's honestly been one of the things that I
because I was so bought in. Like I've struggled with
as an adult, is like if I'm enjoying it, if
I like it, I'm like, this gotta be wrong.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
Something's gotta be with this.
Speaker 7 (04:40):
Yeah, I'm not suffering.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Yeah, sinful pleasure?
Speaker 7 (04:43):
What exactly? Yeah. So at the farm, not only did
we have all of a sudden, we're moving to this
place where we're having to do all this work and
be like take care of cat. We've never been around
any animals before, Like we had outdoor cats. That was
(05:05):
our extent understanding animals. And now we've got chickens, and
we've got turkeys, and we had like I don't remember
at that time, I feel like it was close to
one hundred head of cattle. It was a lot.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
It was a little.
Speaker 7 (05:22):
Crazy, Yeah, And then all the gardens and all that.
We also were building a tabernacle, which was going to
be our church building because now that we're there and
more people are moving sous. Now more people start moving
down to the farm and they're having their own individual homes,
even though we're still stuck in the home with the
(05:42):
other people. And so now we're going to need a tabernacle.
So we start building. So now we are constructing a building.
We did everything Liz can tell you about tarring the
outside wow when she was like twelve, and how fun
(06:02):
it is to get tar off of your body. Anyway,
we got like what was concrete? We mixed concrete with
our hands because we didn't know what it would do
to you. So for literal weeks our hands were peeling
and anyway, good times. But anyway, so that all that
(06:28):
was going on, but also we were just in this
super super controlled environment. Now we can't like decide that
we want to go get a bowl of cereal before
bed or something. You know, it's like everyone is watching
you and deciding what's okay for you to do, for
(06:48):
you to eat, for you to uh if we had,
of course no TV or anything like that. But we
got in trouble for listening to Michael W. Smith because
it was too too much rock.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Oh which which song particularly, Let's do a little aside,
Let's get in Michael W.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Smith real quick.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Oh gosh, I don't even remember. I feel like it
was the like Great Adventure or something.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
Was that him? Was that Michael W. Smith? No, that's that's.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
Uh the other guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Chapman. I think
Stephen kirsch Chapman. Okay, he's a great venture I don't remember,
but it was doing. It was a really you know,
it would have been in this world something like.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
That, right, Yeah, too secular.
Speaker 7 (07:35):
It was too secular. Wait, they heard it through our
bedroom because underneath our little apartment complex, and I mean
our little apartment that we made was over this big garage. Well,
someone was down the garage working and they heard the
boom boom up above them from the steven I mean
(07:56):
the Michael W. Smith we had or tape. It wouldn't
want a tape even I don't eve think we had
CDs oh man. But yeah, So everything was just highly
highly controlled. And during this time, like right after we
moved there, we had this little our little mini convention
(08:16):
that we had for people in that area. So it
was like people from South Carolina, North Carolina, and they
all came to our little mini convention that we had. Well,
there was someone who came that was a single guy.
He was twenty at the time. He had just turned twenty,
and he was in the Army and stationed at Fort Bragg,
(08:37):
which was very close to where the farm was, and
so he came to the convention and his family was
loosely involved with the move, and so he had found
out about our place through a series of things through
his parents, and within a few months he and I,
(09:00):
you know, it became pretty obvious that he and I
liked each other. Well. The problem then was I was
too young, of course, But not only was I too
young for him, It wasn't really that. It was more
that I was too young to have any kind of
relationship just fine. But they made it into a much
bigger deal than what it really even was. And they
(09:24):
made it out that I was seducing him and taking
him away from what God had for him, because of
course he was the perfect individual that you know, he
could not be sinful in any way, and so.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
He would be deployed.
Speaker 7 (09:44):
Somewhere overseas or across the country, and I would have
to go into these elders meetings. So I started being
pulled into elders meetings when I was like fifteen, and
I was told I was seducing him, I was taking
him away from what God had for him. I was
going to you know, ultimately God's call in his life
(10:08):
could not include me, and that I was going to
ruin it for him, and because I was such a seductress.
Now I'm going to assure you I was not a seductress.
I really truly was not. Was I a fourteen fifteen,
sixteen year old with a crush? Sure, yeah, but it
was not by any means I was doing anything seducing.
(10:31):
And so anyway, that became like a really really hard
time for me because I'm being accused of all the
stuff and he's gone, he's not even having to deal with,
you know, all of it. And they would be a
cute like people would say, oh, I saw you sneaking
in the bushes, but like, first of all, that's not
(10:52):
what happened, and we weren't in the bushes, But even
if we were, why are you not talking to the
grown man about it? Why are you in you know, Like,
it just was crazy. So by the time that I'm
around fifteen and a half sixteen at this point, and
this is when I was fifteen, is when I wanted
(11:14):
to go to Canada because I just wanted to get
away from all of the stuff, you know, and just think, well,
at least that way I'm not with him, so I
can't get accused of doing bad, wrong things. And that's
when they the words came back that I was not
supposed to go to Canada, so I stayed there with
(11:35):
my family. And then by the time I was sixteen,
they pretty much were telling my parents, you're doing a
bad job of parenting. We don't approve of how you're
doing this, and so we're just kind of kind of
take over for you and strip away your rights as
a parent. And so at that time my parents were
(11:59):
both and pretty quickly got excused from being elders because
there were too many issues. And then my dad was
always the one who led praise, Well, he wasn't going
to be able to do that anymore because they felt
(12:20):
like he was in a you know, not in the
right place with the Lord because he was not handling
his family in the proper way. And by the time
I was sixteen and a half is when we decided
to leave. So, Liz, do you want to add anything
(12:40):
before you know this time, like during our farm time.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
My experience at the farm was a little different than
Meles just because I did not want to go at all.
When we left. I quite enjoyed our life at home.
And I think I think dimming from when we were children.
When I was six and my parents had made the
decision not to protect us in that how we talked earlier,
(13:09):
I think I kind of separate. I remember at seven
feeling very much like, all right, no one's protecting me.
It's you know, I gotta take care of myself, and
really like kind of separating myself from my parents mentally
and emotionally. So I think that kind of started me
questioning them and their decisions, even at a very young age.
(13:30):
So I did not at all approve of the decision
to move to the farm. I felt like it was
taking away any normalcy of life that we had. And
I actually I was in dance and horseback riding and
you know, I had I didn't have friends, really, but
I had things going on, and so I was really
upset about it. However, when we got to the farm,
(13:52):
I am also just naturally like love working. I'm just
a hard worker and enjoy like constantly moving in having
something to do. So I ended up being like a
great worker on the farm, and all of these single
women who were running things just took to me and
(14:12):
liked me, and I was like kind of the golden child,
could do no wrong, not like to my parents at all,
but to the people that were leading things. And so
my experience at the farm was not super negative because
I just I mean, I went through teenagehood and a
lot of the same kind of things that you know,
(14:32):
like we couldn't shell peas in the air condition, we
couldn't listen to our music, we could only listen to
tapes of previous conventions and praise and worship and like,
there's a lot of those kind of things that were
like awful, And but my day to day I wasn't
getting questioned and they weren't trying to like control me
(14:52):
because I was doing whatever everybody wanted me to do.
I was working all the time, and I was very agreeable.
So my experience on the farm wasn't in relation to
like the farm itself. Now, I went through a lot
of stuff while we were there, like you know, between
mel and melanized relationship while I was there, as she
(15:16):
kind of navigated this what she's been explaining because we
had been super super close and then so I went
through a lot emotionally during those years, but it wasn't
something I would directly relate to the move so to speak,
or what I was experiencing. Because of that, it was
just more just like what was happening in my life
and hormones and all that kind of stuff, you know,
(15:38):
as a young team. So that's that was kind of
my experience, I think.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
Yeah, And I will say that Liz and I had
been so so tight and so during the farm and
what happened with Dan, it just it kind of pulls
us apart. We were not each other safe place anymore,
which I will admit was a lot of my own
(16:05):
fault of not handling it well for sure. So but yeah,
so at that time we had gotten to where I
kind of resented her for being the one that nobody
was mad at because people were always mad at me.
It was one thing or not, like you know, like
(16:25):
with the listening to the music, they automatically would be like, oh,
it was mel it was Melanie who did that, because
Liz would never do something like that, you know, whatever
it was, it was because Liz was a hard worker
and she was quiet, and she was she was a
favorite for sure. There was this one particular lady that
was an elder that just had it out for me.
(16:47):
She just hated me. I mean, there's no.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
Other way to put it. She just did.
Speaker 7 (16:53):
She just hated me. And she's like fifty something years
old and I was fifteen, and it just didn't matter.
And she treated me really really bad, and she was
one of the main people there, and everybody knew that
she hated me. I don't even think it was ever
a question, like everyone just knew that she just hated me.
But anyway, so it and that was the other thing
(17:16):
is like by the time that you got to be
a teenager, they ultimately treated you as an adult to
the point of what you were expected to do, the
way you're expected to handle yourself, you were supposed to
be like an adult. So it was nothing for a
grown fifty something year old woman to come up and
(17:38):
just totally rem out a fifteen year old because she
just didn't like the way I did something. It was
a very commonplace. So yeah, so the farm itself during
that time, though even during this I'm still like, no,
this is God's way. Yeah it's hard, Yeah, it's terrible,
and these people are treating me bad, but that's going
(18:00):
to get me to perfection. So that's how I still
it's looking at it. And Liz, I think, never bought
into all that at all. She was just like I
just got to get through this, you know, because this
is where my family is. So when we finally decided
to leave, I was really upset. And my dad is
(18:28):
literally leaving to protect me at that point from what's
going on and how everyone's treating me. I would say
that was a large portion of their decision of why
they were leaving. It was not the entire thing, but
that was a very large portion. And so now I'm
like sixteen, and because I've been treated in this way
(18:49):
of like I'm supposed to act like an adult, be
an adult, I assume I and feel like I must
be an adult and can make decisions. And when my
dad is like, we need to get out of this environment.
It's not good, it's not safe, and I was so angry.
I was so angry at him because I felt like
(19:11):
he was taking it. Ultimately, he's saying, Okay, now we're
all going to hell. That's just how it is. Now
it's gonna be able to have a relationship with God again.
I'm like, that's all I've ever known. This is what
you've grown me to be, you know, taught me to
do and be, and now you're telling me that you're
just throwing me out into the world where nothing good
(19:33):
can ever happen. So it was like, because you at
that point, like they had these you know, like like
we said, they had the city bodies ate the farm. Well,
if you're leaving a farm at that point, you're you're
just tossing your life away. It's not like you can
downgrade back to a city body. Now there were some
people who did, but they'd have some kind of story
(19:55):
of why God had to lead them through whatever. We
at that point, we're in rebellion to God by leaving.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Yeah, so leaving the farm is leaving the faith.
Speaker 7 (20:12):
Yes, at this point, yes, completely. And just to explain
the whole thing of like the financial part, because Liz,
you know, touched on that earlier. My dad had had
a thriving photography studio when we lived in South Carolina.
He had built it up and it was like he
(20:32):
was doing really, really well. Well. He sold that and
sold our house and everything to move to the farm
to where we're living in this little apartment part of
the big house where everyone lived. And I honestly, I'm
(20:53):
gonna guess that they never saw much of anything from that,
Like I don't know for sure, I don't know if
you can say, Liz, I think I don't think they
ever saw any of the money from the selling of
all that they just it just all went to the farm,
or at least the majority of it. So then my
dad worked in insurance while we lived on the farm.
(21:16):
And when we left, we are literally leaving our home.
We don't have a home anymore, we have no friends
because all of our friends were in that group, we
have no church anymore. We are literally it's just like
moving out into nothing. So we knew we were gonna leave,
(21:39):
but my dad had to literally go into town and
try to find, you know, a rental house that we
could even move into. And he didn't really have any
money for us to get started, I mean, because everything
was going into the pot at the farm. So I
mean it's literally starting from scratch. So here there and
they're like, I can, yes, they're probably late thirties, my
(22:02):
dad might have been early forties at that point and
have four kids that they've got to find a place,
you know, how to a place for them to live
and starting over because we had nothing and we were
shunned from the farm. Like at first we thought, oh,
we can go back there, and just like be with
them on Sundays for church and stuff, and they told
(22:24):
us we couldn't, that we weren't allowed to come back
because we were sowing distincsion between the members, because they
thought that we were pulling, we were trying to pull
other people to go with us and leave the farm,
to which we were not by any means. But Liz,
you want to go into anything about how that time
was for you, I.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Mean it was a similar to you. I think it
was just very confusing because here we were leaving salvation,
you know, our only chance at salvation, you know, So
it was confusing. And I think watching and Dad deal
with it was confusing. And I you know, now I
(23:03):
have a lot more empathy for what they were going through.
But at the time, I think they were like, Okay,
we're gonna just go back to normal, like a normal
Christian family. Like We're just gonna go be a normal
Christian family, you know. And so, you know, we leave
and they start church shopping. That's it is Presbyterian Baptist,
(23:25):
and like, in our minds, that's the enemy. I mean,
those are the that was just as world as anything else,
or or almost worse, because we were told that those
are the people that were like trying to convince people
they could reach salvation. Yeah, but it was false, so
(23:45):
like the false prophet, those are false prophets, and you know,
and so like we had no way to know anything different,
like whether that's insane or not. We didn't we That's
what we grew up in, so like we didn't know
any different than so to go to these churches. I
remember feeling like I was like fourteen at that time,
(24:05):
and I'm just like, why would we associate with these people?
Why would we even consider going and hearing what this
person has to say, Like that doesn't make any sense
to me. So that was a big I remember that
being a big deal to me because I was like
I don't even want to go, Like it felt wrong
not to go to church, but like I don't want
(24:27):
to go to this church and listen to what this
pastor has to say because I can't trust it. Obviously
he's evil, you know. It's like I remember being that
was a big struggle during that time, and like again
questioning my parents because obviously I always questioned my parents'
decisions and questioning like what they you know, what they
(24:50):
thought they were doing to our family and to like
my younger brother and sister and like how are they
going to know enough to make the right decisions, and
being very concerned for them, Like my little sister was
only like what eight or nine at that time, and yeah,
I think she was nine, so and she was like,
(25:11):
I don't know. I just remember being concerned for them
and their faith and not agreeing with my parents' decisions,
not understanding because you know, my parents there never been
good communicators anyway. But they didn't really communicate why we
were leaving or what was happening. It was just sort
(25:32):
of we knew enough of what was going on to
be like, okay, this must have been the straw that
broke the camel's back. But it was never told like,
hey guys, this is what's happened. We really feel, you know,
we're choosing our family over the farm or that was
that never happened. There was no explanation. It was just
like in the you know, under the cloak of darkness,
(25:53):
we're escaping to this.
Speaker 7 (25:55):
And it did feel that way. It literally was like
we told everyone and we left the next day. Yeah,
oh wow.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
So it was just a really confusing time. I think.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
It was. It was very confusing, and they also didn't
get like dreams or visions for this. There was no
word of knowledge, which was also confusing because we were like, wait,
I thought you had to have that for everything, and
the fact that they would not it was like I
think there was a part of us that was like, wait,
our mom and dad not really like do they not
(26:30):
actually want to go to heaven and be perfect and
walk with God? You know, like what is happening it? Yeah,
it felt very strange.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Yeah, I can't imagine what that scenario would be like
to where Yeah, because when my family left worldwide, like
I don't remember that. I've heard about it, but I
don't know Ashley remembers that process. But like for me,
like thinking about like my parents leaving this group that
we were taught, like no, this is it. It's like
(27:02):
but but you said this is it?
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Where are we going?
Speaker 6 (27:05):
Like what could possibly be different? And then to your
point too, when you were talking about like other churches,
I would agree with you that it was almost looked
at as other churches were worse than if you were
just like an outright atheist, because that is a perversion,
like the perversion of the truth, which is worse, Like
(27:26):
I think my dad would always say something to the
effect an illustration of like you know, having a kool
aid or or having you know, iced tea with a
little strych nine, and it is worse than it just
being like here's the bottle of this is poison.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
I'm telling you, Like.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
That's worse because it's this perversion of a good thing
that leads you astray type thing. It's not outright bad
like atheism is like, well, obviously that's not true, you know,
so yeah, I when you brought that up earlier, it's like, yeah,
I think I would agree with that too, which I
think is another hallmark of that like we are the
only ones who have the right knowledge and the right way.
(28:04):
We're the holders of that knowledge, and everybody else obviously
they are wrong, which is amazing. All these groups, they're
all different now, reveraget, but they all have the one truth.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I don't know, I'm just gonna have to duke it out. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (28:19):
Yeah. And one of the things that happened during our
time at the farm is that we had been really
close to our cousins. We had some cousins that were
the same ages as Liz and I and so we
would like go and spend like, you know, times during
the summer with them and things when we were growing up.
And then we also had grandparents and you know, different
(28:42):
things people that were in our life wouldn't beforehand. Then
we moved to the farm, and they're not completely taken
out of our life, but I think because of the teaching,
and it had gotten so intense at that point with
the whole, Like so my cousins that were Baptists, I
(29:04):
literally just thought, I can't be around them anymore. It's just,
you know, they just they're not a good influence on
me because of that. They're wonderful, sweet people, but I
just felt so strongly that they were they were in
the wrong, you know, and they didn't understand what the
real you know, what really being a Christian was like.
(29:25):
And we also distanced ourselves from our grandparents. One of
our grandmothers actually lived with us, so she came to
the farm with us, but the other side of grandparents.
And so once again, when we leave the farm, we
now are even more isolated from even them because we
(29:47):
had put this wall up between these family members. So
now we're like trying to think, Okay, well, can we
have a relationship with them. Again, they of course thought
that we were off of our rockers living on this
communit commune anyway. But you know, I was like trying
to build relationship with outside people as well. Again, it
was just very it was a very strange, difficult time
(30:11):
for sure. I was just gonna say, then we ended
up in a church that was in some ways beneficial
for us to kind of start our healing soon after
we left, and that it was just a very slow healing.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
And I think that what you were kind of pointing out,
that's a great way to illustrate kind of the different
types of control that can exist because you were not told, hey,
don't associate. You weren't outright told don't associate with this person. Yeah,
but being in the group and the brainwashing for lack
(30:48):
of a better term, that occurs, like you're doing that yourself.
It's like that self auditing that you are doing. It's
not someone telling you. So you couldn't say, like, well,
they are controlling me. They told me not to do
this or to do this, But by virtue of being
in the group, that's what's happening. And I think sometimes
people don't understand that like why I know, Like my
(31:09):
dad would say, like I don't ever tell anybody you know,
like what to do.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
It's like really though, like yeah, maybe you don't.
Speaker 6 (31:16):
Say don't do this thing, but they know and everybody knows, like, okay,
if you do that thing, the penalty is spiritual death,
So well, what are you gonna do with that?
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Then?
Speaker 6 (31:27):
Like obviously they're not going to do that thing. You
can say like, well you can do what you want.
It's like, but we know better than that. So I
think that helps to illustrate, like it's it's not always
this outright control, and that doesn't make it lesser now
because someone's not directly telling you. I would, I would
go out on a lemon and say, it's actually often
worse when it's the endoctrination within that you're doing it
(31:51):
yourself now, Like that's.
Speaker 7 (31:53):
Not and I think that's you know why it's so
hard when you leave to get.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
It out of you know, yes, does it just go away?
Speaker 7 (32:01):
It does not go away. This is still part of
who you are. And even though you don't necessarily, even
though you know that's not right, it doesn't just mean
that that's not still the first thing that pops in
your head.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
Yeah, it's nearly impossible to break through all of that.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
I mean, I've only been.
Speaker 6 (32:22):
Out out for actually five years this month, and there
are those things that pop up every day, you now,
where you're like, wow, I do not agree with that.
I don't think that, but there it is, right, you know,
it's just for your whole life, Like you're not going
to flip a switch.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
No, no, and get ready now.
Speaker 7 (32:39):
Because we're thirty years out at this point, are almost
almost thirty years out from when we left the farm,
and I still feel like it is a constant part
of my life where I'm like, wait, is this what
I was brainwashed into thinking or is this actually real?
And what I think and what I believe?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
And I think also one of the issues with the
way that we got out and the lack of closure, yes,
was that and we were teenagers, still older teenagers. It
was just sort of like, Okay, now we got to
pick up the pieces and keep moving and figure life
out for ourselves. Now now no one's telling us, but
(33:24):
we still have this belief. So honestly, I don't think
either of us started working through things until we were
much older. I think both of us had sort of
a epiphany type of moment around thirty for each of
us where it was like, wait a second, this is
you know, all these issues that I'm having, these thoughts
(33:46):
that I'm having, these decisions that I've made over the
last fifteen years, they all traced back to that. And
I think it wasn't until then that we started even
us talking about it, Like we never talked about it
and just.
Speaker 7 (33:59):
Like just behind us, we're not even gonna go there
and discuss what happened.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Which is how our parents still handle it. Wow, which
is part of the problem. Why we handled it that
way what, you know, because it was just it wasn't
dealt with.
Speaker 7 (34:15):
But all, yeah, it was I think it was for them.
It's just like we're just moving on. Let's just move on.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Yeah. Yeah, maybe a little bit survival too.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
I know I've had small periods of that where you're like,
you know what, like maybe it would be better to
work through some of that, but I'm just trying to
like mentally stay alive and that can be tomorrow's problems
and maybe like you extend that out over years and
you're like, I'm just staying alive.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I'm just surviving. That's all it's all I can do.
Speaker 7 (34:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so interesting in that. Interestingly enough, in
our story, we leave the farm, we break ties with
the farm itself, but for whatever reason, we decide to
still stay involved with like the conventions and stuff. To
(35:05):
some degree. We still go to some conventions. And at
one of the conventions soon after we left, we were
told that, you know, we were like they had a
meeting with my parents where the Traveling Ministry and Father
Ministry tell them that they're in sin and you know,
all that, but still we go. I don't know, it
was weird.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Extend was.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
The way to get out of sin to come back
to the farm?
Speaker 7 (35:32):
Oh yeah, yeah and make things right and you know,
go under the covering of the ministry there and all that. Yeah,
But we end up in the summer of was it
ninety seven? I think it was a summer of ninety seven,
(35:53):
is when we go travel around to the farms. Is
that right?
Speaker 5 (35:57):
Okay, so now you kind of have to tell the
story of why don't you do that? Yeah. So when
I was like maybe twelve or thirteen, at one of
the conventions that we went to, one of the farms
from Alaska did a slide show to music that was
showing just shots of their farm. It was very well done,
(36:23):
very well produced to put to this music. And this
farm uses draft horses for their like farming and stuff.
So I watch I'm like thirteen, and I watched this thing,
this video or this slide show, and it is of
the most beautiful place I've ever seen with these draft
horses that these young people are riding, and like it
(36:46):
just looked so idyllic and amazing. And at that point,
I'm like, Okay, well, if we're going to be doing this,
like we should be doing it there, you know, because
like I love horses, and I.
Speaker 7 (36:58):
Was just like.
Speaker 5 (37:00):
So at that time, I just fell in love with
that place. It's called the land. It was just one
of the farms adding nothing about it other than this thing,
and I was just like I have to go there.
I had just I have to go there. Now, when
all this happened, we're still like totally entrenched and you know,
we're still there. So then fast forward to the summer
(37:22):
that we left the farm. Melanie was graduating from high
school and our grandmother had made this had said that
whenever one of us graduate from high school, we can
take a trip. So Mel's trip was to go to
Prince Edward Island. So my grandmother, my mother, and Melanie
and I. Because I got to I was asked to
(37:44):
tag along as a companion.
Speaker 7 (37:47):
Flew to that you get to go with us.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
You probably it wasn't my jam at all. But we
flew to Boston. We did this whole trip, and on
when we get back to Boston to fly back home
to Atlanta, the airline that we have flown on closed down,
like literally closed day, like literally like no more flights.
So we get we were stuck. And so my aunt,
(38:10):
who flew a lot, had a lot of frequent flyer miles, says,
I'll get you home. And she says, so it turns
out that I can fly you anywhere around trip and
you'll just stop over in Atlanta, and as long as
you do the rest of the flight in the next year,
you can go anywhere you want to go in the US. So,
at like eleven o'clock that night, my mother, now, granted
we've just left, like we're a month out of leaving
(38:32):
the farm, right, my mother says, Hey, Liz, you still
want to go to Alaska? And I'm like yeah, So
then we plan So we booked tickets to Alaska that night. Yeah,
that we have to use within the next year for
the three of us, Melanie, myself, and the intention that
we are going to go visit at least this one farm,
(38:53):
if not others. Right, So that's why, like, we never
would have just outright bought tickets to go to Alaska.
Never would have happened. I never would have gone there.
But so then the next summer, the following summer, and
now we're like, now we've gone through a year of
being out. Now we've gone through year of all of
this trauma and progression, and then we go visit.
Speaker 7 (39:16):
And I'm also now engaged to the guy, the guy
who was in the army, So I'm now engaged to him.
And that was not allowed because we didn't walk out
a year, which was the whole thing at the farm,
which was a whole ridiculous thing. But you had to
walk out a year first before you could get to
the point of being engaged. So I was already insin
(39:39):
according to them, with that too. But we're yeah, so
now we're going down this trip and we Mom has
now decided that we're gonna go visit not just the land,
but we're going to go to I think we visited
like four different farms. So we're gonna go to four
different farms up in Alaska, and we're really just at
their mercy. They had to come pick us up from
(40:01):
the airport. They have to transport us to the next farm,
which sometimes was literally like six hours away, and they're
gonna we're gonna go just stay with them, with whoever
has decided to host us, whichever family, and we're gonna
just live with them for like a few days and
then move on to the next one and so forth.
Speaker 5 (40:19):
So Licy want to go ahead.
Speaker 7 (40:23):
Because this is more your thing.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
So we go to the first farm and it is
the one of the oldest farms in Alaska. They one
of the ones that was I think from the seventies.
It's really old. But we spent a few days there
and I fell in love with it. Not only was
it just obviously beautiful, but it I just love the people,
(40:49):
and we were working like at that place. The way
that they integrated us was hey, do you want to
go work with us? And so we got to go work,
which is totally my thing. I love that, So I
just loved it. I really had a great time there
and really enjoyed it. And then we moved on to
(41:09):
the next place, which I don't remember a lot of
drama at that place. The next place, which was this
White Stone, was all drama.
Speaker 7 (41:17):
It was all drama.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
My mom was like, of course at this point, the
black cloud was hanging over my mother, so she I felt, yeah, yeah,
it was not a good thing.
Speaker 7 (41:33):
But we get there and like at Sapa, which is
the first place we went, they did they just integrated
us into like all the stuff that they were doing,
and we were like on the work schedule and we
knew when everybody's going to eat, and we're just going
to hanging out and just being a part of everything.
And then we go to the next place and they
literally just stick us in a room and forget that
we're there. They don't tell us where to go to eat,
(41:54):
they don't tell us anything.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
We literally were.
Speaker 7 (41:56):
Just like stuck in this room. It was so weird.
And then finally we go we do kind of push
ourselves into like what they're doing, and after like three days,
my mom gets up in the middle of like the
dining room where a hundred at least one hundred people
are eating and you know, and they're like, well, would
(42:17):
you like to say something before you leave? And my
mom was like, you guys are horrible. You have not
been hospitable at all. You've all been rude, no one.
It was hilarious. Oh, man, looking back, it's very funny.
At the time, we were both stoky, miliated and listen.
I were like, oh God, please let.
Speaker 6 (42:35):
Us hide something, and was this like, you guys suck.
Can you please take us to the next farm.
Speaker 7 (42:43):
This place you had to like take a little boat
even just to get over to where you could get
in a car somewhere.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
She might have to saved that, like thanks for drafting
thes uf.
Speaker 7 (43:00):
Man, Oh, that's too funny.
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Then we go to the land next though, right, Yeah,
Then we went to the land and it also was
not particularly friendly or hospital. I mean, they tried. They
were way better than white Stone, but it wasn't. I
don't know. I didn't. I didn't connect at all at
the land. And I also wasn't feeling well almost the
(43:24):
whole time we were there, and I did so that
didn't help. But yeah, I did not connect at the land,
and I know Mel had a terrible experience taking my
place riding the horses that made such a deal.
Speaker 7 (43:37):
But my first and probably only like time where I
literally thought I was gonna die and fall off of
this draft horse justying. It's okay, that's still here, oh dear.
But yeah there. It was like they kind of had
(43:57):
like a little youth group kind of thing, so that
was kind of cool. We're like, oh, this is kind
of cool, Like the youth are able to go off
and do things by themselves and not just be like
superly superly heavily watched. So we thought that was interesting.
But that was like the only redeeming value that we
found from that visit.
Speaker 5 (44:16):
I feel like, yeah, I think the people just were
not super warm or something. I don't know, I just
I wasn't really attract anyway. Long story short, we go
back home and my family's like, so you still want
to go to the land, like cause I had. It
wasn't super uncommon for teenagers that were part of like
(44:36):
city bodies to go to a farm, and the move
did have its own college that was at a couple
of places, so like it was very common for college
aged kids to go to one of the farms and
go to college. So like it wasn't like even though
we were in a farm, it was a small farm,
so it wouldn't have been crazy to think about me
(44:56):
like actually going to one of these farms for like
cool or you know, to live. And so after that trip,
my family is like, hey, do you want to still
go to the land And I was like, no, I
do not, but I really like Sepa. I want to
go there. And so in three months I was living
at Sapa.
Speaker 7 (45:18):
Yeah, as a fifteen year old.
Speaker 5 (45:21):
On my own.
Speaker 7 (45:21):
She went there. Wow.
Speaker 5 (45:24):
Yeah, And that was See this is.
Speaker 7 (45:26):
Another one of those weird things to me that where
they treated us almost like adults, like we had we
could meet these decisions that I don't even feel like
Mom and Dad had that much to say about it.
They were just like, oh, if that's what you want
to do, sharelest do that.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Yeah it was yeah, it was more just like, oh, well,
I guess that's I mean, because we did have we
did get visions and because I mean that's something that
SAPER requires, so you know, we did get visions and
words of affirmation and all that, and maybe it was
looked at within the move is like we can save
one of them, you know, I don't know, because I
(46:05):
mean in resspect. Why did the move accept me back,
I don't know, but but yeah, it was more just like, okay, well,
this is what God wants, so we're going to move
heaven and earth to make it happen. Because we had
to figure out how to get me there. I had
braces at the time, but I wasn't going to have
an orthodonosaurs. I had to get my braces taken off early,
(46:27):
you know, just like all these random things that had
to happen in three months so that I could get
there in time to start school for the next school year.
So yeah, it was pretty It's crazy that that happened.
It's crazy that I was allowed to do that, and
that I went there. And then once I got there,
(46:47):
the structure was to live people who came there, you know,
teenagers or whatever, just lived with a family. And so
I lived with this couple who had just gotten married
their like early forties, and they had just gotten married
their first marriage, and and I was put with them,
(47:10):
and me and one other girl were put in their
log cabin.
Speaker 7 (47:15):
And by the way, they did not have running water.
Speaker 5 (47:21):
Or regular or much electricity.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Very cool, very cool.
Speaker 5 (47:25):
Yeah, outhouses and washing your clothes by hand, I mean's
you know, if you're going to have the Alaskan experience,
that's the way to go.
Speaker 7 (47:33):
Just go ahead and have it all the way.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
So anyway, this the woman of the couple that I
was living with, had just literally just moved because she
got married and moved to be with her husband. Here
from the ridge, which we had previously talked about is
the place where people go to get rehabilitated. And she
was like kind of a dorm mom to young women
(48:02):
who needed to be rehabilitated. She didn't know how to
be around normal people. And my roommate was also I
don't want to say she was troubled, but she was.
She had some things going on where she could benefit
(48:23):
from the instruction that this woman had. Whereas I was
like the golden child. I was the go with the flow,
do what needs to be done, happy to just you know,
whatever you need from me. And she didn't that. She
didn't appreciate that. So she spent the next year doing
(48:44):
everything in her power to make my life a living hell.
And she did and then and do it. And then
there was a whole process of the elders ended up
saying that I liked boys and trying to put you know,
I was getting called into elders meetings about me being
(49:07):
a seductress and like being an awful person. I ended
up getting super sick while I was there, and I
was like bettering for two weeks and like no one
would take care of me. But they were just like,
what's wrong with you? Get up and work and and.
Speaker 7 (49:25):
Well, I did believe that if you were sick or anything,
it was likely because your relationship with God was not
in a good place.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
And I do think that that there probably was a
stigma on me already just because of the family. I
think they're definitely oh, I'm.
Speaker 7 (49:40):
Sure, yes.
Speaker 5 (49:44):
But eventually and I would call home and I would
talk to my parents, and my mom was just like, well,
you know, this is this is your boot camp. Because
I was always wanted to go into the military. So
she's like, just think about it, like boot camp. This
is your boot camp, and you can handle anything and
you can get through this, and you know, just like
not validating my experience at all, just being like, you know,
(50:08):
suck it up, move on. At least there was a
part of that.
Speaker 7 (50:10):
That was like I am thousands of miles away and
there is nothing I can do to help you too.
Speaker 5 (50:16):
Yeah, but yeah, but eventually there was I had really
gotten to the point where because of the people I
lived with, they just ostracized me from everyone. I wasn't
really allowed to leave my house other than to school
and work, and I really wasn't allowed to have friends
or even though like, yeah, that kind of was a
whole point was anyway, I really wasn't allowed to like
(50:37):
communicate with anyone or talk to anyone. But the loot
youth group kind of leader was this guy, and for
whatever reason, I was kind of allowed to talk to him,
and because he was like helping tutor me in some
of my classes or like I was doing some extracurricular
projects with him and stuff, so he was an okay person.
(50:58):
So he and I became close in the sense that
I could talk to him, and eventually they decided that
I liked him and that I was trying to seduce him,
and so I started getting pulled into meetings about that,
and to me, that was like the furthest thing, Like
he was twice my age and like I never would
(51:21):
ever have thought about him that way at all. It
was just like literally the only person I could talk
to and he was nice to me. So I was
really upset by that. And then there actually was a
person that I really liked and I had told him that,
and then he told the elders that, So then I
got then there were restrictions put around the person that
I really did, Like I wasn't allowed to even go
(51:43):
towart near his house, even though his sister was one
of my best friends. I like had to cut off
all of that, like all communication. Basically, I got to
a point where it was like I wasn't allowed to
do anything or talk to anyone, and if I even
looked in the wrong direction. Literally they would say, if
I walked into the building and I looked in the
direction of one of these men, I was getting pulled
(52:04):
into it, into an elders meet. So just ridiculousness and
also completely unfounded. And eventually, you know, I got pretty
like I don't know what to do, and I I
guess I was expressing that to my parents. So at
one point my dad calls me or I yeah, he
called me, And there's only two phones in the whole farm,
(52:25):
and they were in the tabernacle building, and I think
they were connected. So people probably always listened. But anyway,
he called and I went to a little phone booth
and he was like, you're coming home. And I was
like what what you know? Because I still had like
a month left on my sentence there and and and
(52:46):
so I'm like no, you know, I was like, no,
I have to finish it, because you know that's kind
of what had been pounded and you just finish it.
You can get through it. Just finished this. I'm like, no,
I have to finish it. I have to finish this.
And he was like, no, we need you at home.
And you know it's there's bat's you know, I don't
like how they're true you and whatever. And he was
completely valid and the one time in my life that
he like stood up for me. And so so then
(53:08):
I had to leave. He's like, go get brother Terry,
who's like one of the top. He's like, go get
him and put him on the phone. So I had
to like leave that little phone booth and go in
the middle of meal, a meal where he's eating, and
go tell brother Terry. And then he goes in there
and talks to my dad and then he comes out,
like very angrily, comes out to my table and it's
like we need to talk after you finish eating. So
(53:30):
then I get pulled started. So then it's like two
weeks before I'm leaving. So then it is every single day,
multiple times, I'm in meetings, constant meetings of like why
are you leaving? What did he say? What are you
gonna say? What have you told them? Like just all
this stuff, and I'm like just an innocent shy. I mean,
I was sixteen at this point, but still like, no,
(53:50):
I was not the strong willed, outspoken person that my
master was. That's not that person. So I'm just like
I don't know what to say, and so and then
that just kept going, and eventually I was honest with
one of the leaders and a couple of the younger
people about what was actually happening at the house that
(54:12):
I lived in, and the one leader did say he
was like, yeah, in retrospect, we never should have put
anyone with them, and they were not ready to be,
you know, ahead of household family and whatever. So he
did kind of apologize, which was nice, But because my
experience was one hundred and fifty percent different than every
(54:34):
other girl who was there as a transplant, like and
everyone else who was there, because I knew them. There
was probably four other girls there other than me, living
in other houses. They did not have this negative experience.
This was just I was targeted and so so then
I left. And then right after I left, we went
(54:59):
to a convention and and the father Ministry who were
over that farm, so like their father ministry who lived there,
and they're kind of like over that farm, but they
were traveling for months, so they hadn't been there when
all of this stuff was going down over like the
previous three months. They asked to speak with me at
(55:21):
the convention. So I went and had to sit down
with them, and they were like, we just want you
to know that that youth pastor had gone to the
elders and said that he was interested in you and
that's why that all happened. But I didn't know that,
Like he didn't tell me, no one else told me.
(55:43):
They just started telling me that I was seducing him,
and I'm like, I'm not seducing him. So I got
so I was really really grateful. I don't know why
they if they were super sweet people, So I was
really grateful that they told me that because I had
been I was so confused. I was like what have
I done, you know to it? Just I had never
experienced anything like that in my whole life, where people
(56:05):
were just out to get me and making up lies
about me and you know, turning me into the villain
when I hadn't done anything, And so I was really confused.
And it doesn't explain the lady that I lived with
and how how she treated me. But at least I
kind of had a window into what started that whole thing,
(56:25):
when the whole all of the elders became against me
and everyone was calling me like this evil person, and
like I just couldn't figure it out. So it was
nice to kind of have that knowledge, and I think
it provided a little bit of closure of that for me.
But yeah, so then I like technically was the last
one of our family to officially leave. I guess in
(56:50):
nineteen ninety eight was when I was when I finally
came home from a last.
Speaker 7 (56:54):
And it was once again against your will and not
a choice that you were making.
Speaker 5 (56:58):
True. Yeah, well yeah I wasn't. But yeah, but I
don't think I I don't think I resented anyone for that.
I was upset about not finishing a job that I started,
you know, but none of it was ever. I was
never bought in right to the religion of it. I
(57:19):
was never bought into that this is the answer, this
is my salvation. I didn't know any better. But I
also was never bought into it. You know, I questioned
everything about it. It never felt right to me. None
of it felt right to me. So then when I
was like just attacked the way I was when I
was in Alaska, I was like, Okay, this isn't this
(57:41):
isn't good. I don't want to be a part of this,
you know. So I don't know. I didn't have It
wasn't like a religious crisis for me to leave, and
I had already spent that year away from the farm,
So I don't know, you know, it didn't feel it
didn't feel was super confusing. I guess at that point
(58:02):
it was just like I it was, I don't know.
I think I was in denial for a while. It
was just kind of a whirlwind of what just happened,
you know. It was just like all of a sudden,
I went from living with my parents to living in Alaska,
like all of a sudden, and then all of this happened,
and then I'm home and it's like, wait, this is
just a bad dream, you know. So it was, and
(58:23):
I don't think I still don't know that I've processed
that part of all of this. I don't, you know.
It's something I just kind of locked away and I
just don't, you know, I don't go there in my mind.
And also because I was the only one, like, there's
no one to talk about it with, right, just no
one else experienced it with me, so I can't, like
(58:44):
with everything else, I can talk to my family, but
no one else was there to experience it. So it
just feels a bit like a black hole in my life. Yeah,
this weird experience.
Speaker 6 (58:55):
If you liked this episode, please go leave us a
five star rating and review wherever that is, if it's Apple,
Spotify or another service. It's really helpful. And don't forget
to subscribe so that you can get notified to when
we have new episodes and updates and things like that. Thanks,
and we'll talk to you all again next week.
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