September 24, 2025 • 51 mins
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Liz and Mel share their journeys after leaving high-control churches. Mel finds initial comfort in a non-denominational church, marries, and starts a family, but later becomes involved in another controlling Acts 29 church and the quiverful movement, leading to raising eight children under strict patriarchal rules.
Liz struggles with her identity outside the church, faces trauma, and endures two abusive marriages before ultimately stepping away from church life altogether. Both sisters reflect on the lasting impact of their upbringing, the challenges of healing, and the importance of self-grace and understanding.
Their stories highlight how shared experiences can lead to vastly different paths and the ongoing process of reclaiming autonomy and trust in oneself.
#cultleaderfathers #cultleaders #psychologyofcults #authoritarianleaders #highcontrolgroups #religiousabuse #spiritualabuse #familytrauma #generationaltrauma #powerandcontrol #cultsurvivorstories #escapingcults #mindcontrol #psychologicalmanipulation #narcissisticabuse #truecrimepodcast #cultawareness #lifeaftercults #toxicleadership #thecultnextdoor
Liz and Mel share their journeys after leaving high-control churches. Mel finds initial comfort in a non-denominational church, marries, and starts a family, but later becomes involved in another controlling Acts 29 church and the quiverful movement, leading to raising eight children under strict patriarchal rules.
Liz struggles with her identity outside the church, faces trauma, and endures two abusive marriages before ultimately stepping away from church life altogether. Both sisters reflect on the lasting impact of their upbringing, the challenges of healing, and the importance of self-grace and understanding.
Their stories highlight how shared experiences can lead to vastly different paths and the ongoing process of reclaiming autonomy and trust in oneself.
#cultleaderfathers #cultleaders #psychologyofcults #authoritarianleaders #highcontrolgroups #religiousabuse #spiritualabuse #familytrauma #generationaltrauma #powerandcontrol #cultsurvivorstories #escapingcults #mindcontrol #psychologicalmanipulation #narcissisticabuse #truecrimepodcast #cultawareness #lifeaftercults #toxicleadership #thecultnextdoor
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth. No one else
is telling you the things that God is telling you
through me.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
He's speaking through me the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber. That's the wedding chamber.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
The Lord told me that.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
In their life. God is going to be moving vitally
in fot like he dies before booths judgments. Welcome back
everyone to the Cult Nextdoor podcast. If you are listening
to this, my condolences on missing out on the wrap
sure yesterday. If it makes you feel any better, it
(01:12):
could happen to anyone. I do recommend consoling yourself by
following us on our socials so Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. Also,
please leave us a voice message. I get really excited
every time I see one of the voice messages come through,
so please do that. If you have a moment you
have something to say, then link for that is at
the top of the episode description on the episode that
(01:35):
you're listening to right now, and also on our Instagram
and TikTok bios. You can find it there. Also leave
us a review. I'll read a quick one that we
got this week on Apple says. I look forward to
each episode. The pod is a place for more personal
stories of individuals who have lived through high control religion.
I laugh along sometimes I cry along. Makes a person
(01:57):
feel less alone and having made it through similar experiences.
That is from kt MM two to two was three
days ago. Thank you very much for that review. Listener.
If you have not left for a review yet and
you really enjoy the podcast, please go do that or
like I said, reach out with the voice message. We
really want to hear feedback from you guys. We really
enjoy that. Also, before we move on to today's episode,
(02:19):
as always, our Double Portion Club shoutouts Shanda and Chase,
Heather Bartlett, Carla.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Julia b.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Thank you all, very much for supporting the podcast in
the way that you do. Listener, if you would like
to be in this clubs ten bucks a month get
AD free episodes and this cool shout out, or you
can do a five dollars a month tier support the
work and you'll get AD free episodes and we'll send
you a really cool holographic Cultnick stoor Sticker. So today's
episode is Part three with Mel and Liz. I've really
(02:48):
really enjoyed talking to these two. I've enjoyed all of
our guests that we've had on the podcast so far
in the last two years. These two, in particular are
a couple of my favorites over the last two years.
Bummed out that actually couldn't be a part of the recording,
but we made do anyway. So we've got part three,
which is our final part with Melon Liz and I
hope you enjoy it. So, what were the kind of withdrawals,
(03:12):
like after you've come back from Alaska and you guys
are out, is that when you're kind of doing the
church hopping at that point still or like, what was
the withdrawal from what you've known for so many years?
What was that like?
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Well, we pretty quickly got involved with this one church
that was just a non denominational church and there was
some very loving, carrying people there that for me, it
was very soothing to just be around people who actually
seem to be nice, you know, and caring, and God
(03:52):
wasn't just totally associated with like, you know, keeping you
under his thumb, and you know, it wasn't all about suffering.
You could actually enjoy something in life and that kind
of thing. So that was that was kind of a
nice place for me to fall. So we were involved
(04:15):
in that church, and that's when my husband and I
got engaged, and then we.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Got married in that church.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
We had our first couple of kids while we were there,
and all of that. Through all of that, it was
just a very loving environment for us to be in.
So that's where I was like during that time. Excuse
me because like when Liz was up in Alaska, is
when I got married. She came back for the wedding
(04:45):
and then went back to Alaska and that kind of thing.
So I'm not saying I dealt with anything like I
was certainly not dealing with any of my trauma, but
it was a place that I could at least just
kind of live in a little bit of okayness and
(05:08):
people being kind and be okay with life to some degree.
So yeah, that's how it was for me, I thought,
you know, during that kind of initial leaving.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
I think, I think for.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Me, like all I had ever known was my entire
life to be about the church and about I mean
that that was literally my entire life. Everything was about church.
So the idea of it not being about that was difficult.
And I never got super plugged into this church that
(05:45):
I was talking about because.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
I was in and out a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I left, you know, I left to do other things
after the Alaska thing, so I wasn't super plugged in there.
But there was a a teen like group. They did
like retreats for girls, and so I got really involved
in and doing those retreats and like speaking, I would,
(06:09):
you know, preach or what you know, speak for to
the girls. And I was a leader, and I did
really want to stay involved in something that had to
do with I guess the church and God because I
didn't know any different. But you know, I just felt
(06:30):
like I had to do that, like I had to
be going to church and I had to be involved
because I didn't you know, I don't know what else
to do, So I really kind of just fell back
on that, trying to get plugged in anywhere I could
where I could, especially with young other young people. You know,
I really wanted to help young people. And I don't know,
(06:53):
I don't really, I don't know, but that's what I did.
I mean, like for the next year, because it was
one more year before I left to go to college,
and I, yeah, I was just I was in the
youth group, I was doing these retreats. I was just
really kind of doing everything I possibly could to be.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
I guess witnessing. I don't know what else you call it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I don't know, you know, helping being involved with young
people in the church in some way.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
So then Meil, you're kind of talking about, you know,
you're there in that non denominational church and you're you know, married,
you're having kids and all this like when did or
how did it shift from you being kind of in
a new church and this kind of new thing. Talk
(07:43):
to me about the progression and the same for you
now like through those same years and you're going to
college and all this, like how how were you working
through what you had just been through or were you.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
So I would say for me, I just immediately fell
into putting myself completely still into whatever religious system we were.
And so after a few years of being at that church,
we moved to the Charlotte, North Carolina area, and so
(08:21):
we had to look for a church for the first time,
my husband I had to look for a church, and
that became a lot because we'd never had to do
that before. And so we're like, you know, what's important,
what's needed? Is it okay for us to try out
different denominations, you know, all that kind of stuff. And
(08:41):
there's a kind of I would say about five years
of us just not knowing what to do and floundering
a bit, and then finally we find this group that's
starting a new church and there were homeschool They were
all homeschoolers, which we were homeschooling our children at the time,
(09:05):
and they were they seemed to be they're all around
our ages, like, you know, they had a lot of
kids the same ages as our kids. It just was
like it was a great community for us in a
lot of ways. And so we decided to join this
church and it was another ultimately it was acts twenty
(09:25):
nine church. If you know anything about those they're just
it's a whole another set of control. And I was
comfortable in that because that's what I'd known.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You know.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
It's just like for me, it's like I just tended
to just fall right back into that line of thinking.
Even now it's at that point it'd been like ten
years since we left, and still in my mind it
was like you have to be so sold out and
(10:03):
so like all in with God, with whatever teaching that
I was under at that time, that there was no
room for leeway. There was no room for us having
any say over our life. It was whatever we felt
like God was leading us to do. And this particular
(10:25):
group was very patriarchal. They were a quiver full movement,
which means that they were all about having as many
kids as you can. And so we have eight, which
came a lot from that because we were in this
group that we were like, that's the way to be holy,
(10:47):
that's the way to show that you're all in for
God is to give him your womb. And so I
didn't feel like how to say over anything. I didn't
feel like how to say over my body. I didn't
feel like how to say over what was going on
in our house because even though my husband was not
(11:08):
the kind of person that is like necessarily domineering, he
very easily can you know, he was going to keep
the status quo of the church and what they you know,
so I still could talk to him, but he had
the final say, you know, because he felt like that
was his place under God to have the final say.
(11:29):
And there was just a lot that went into that.
There was in it. Once again, it wasn't because either
of us necessarily even wholeheartedly believed all these things. But
this is the group that we chose to be in,
so we were going to go with what that group said.
And this is where I why I feel like I
(11:50):
have so much understanding and give so much grace to
my parents is because I then lived it as the parent.
And so when my oldest children became teenagers and started
to fight back a bit, all of a sudden, I
realized I had literally just put them in the same situation.
(12:12):
It looked a little different, it wasn't quite as severe.
We never lived in a commune, you know, but it
still was a very similar situation that I then raised
them in because I never worked through the crap that
I grew up with So when my oldest was about
(12:33):
seventeen or eighteen, and she was like, you know, what
the heck, what are y'all doing? Why are you in
this kind of stuff? I all of a sudden, I
actually started listening, and I don't even know exactly I
had started working through some stuff with purity culture. Working
through purity culture actually was I think the beginning stages
(12:57):
for me. So that was in my mid thirties. I
already had eight kids, I had you know, teenage children,
and all of a sudden, I realized it was actually
okay if I enjoyed any type of sexual encounter with
my husband, that was actually okay. And that was the
(13:18):
first time in my life that I actually finally came
to that because it didn't make me sinful, it didn't
make me a seductress just because I wanted to be
with my husband. So just I know, it sounds so crazy,
but it's like when you're taught that mindset and that's
(13:39):
all you have, it's just like I always felt dirty.
I always felt dirty because I'm like, I can't have feelings,
I can't have desires. You're not allowed to have desires,
and it be of God and even as a grown
adult married for you know, twenty years. Woman here, I'm
like having to fight through that. So that was probably
(14:01):
the very beginning stages. And then I got introduced to
the enneagram and I started learning about that and that
just started helping me understand myself and others around me
and my oldest were definitely challenging what we were had
been teaching them and the group like at that point.
(14:23):
By that time we were in a house church.
Speaker 6 (14:25):
Where we were.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
It was just it was just like living in another
group like that. I mean, you know, here we're in
a house church. It's all about you know, being a community.
But it was also all about isolating yourself, you know,
and not letting the world get to you or your children.
And even though I never put my kids in the
same situations I was in as a teenager, in a
(14:49):
lot of ways, I still isolated them greatly from things.
So once I started working through some of that stuff,
everything kind of just broke close. I was like, I'm
just going to start figuring this stuff out. And it
included a lot of hard times, like because I had
to start actually dealing with not only the reality of
(15:11):
what I grew up in and the trauma that that
had been, but what I had then because of that,
done with my own kids. So that's kind of my
story of working through that. And I'm currently not in
any church. My husband is still very active, extremely active
(15:33):
in a church that he's in right now. But we're
at a place in our marriage, in our life where
we can very happily say you can do your thing
and I can do my thing and we're okay, which
is it's a huge thing for us and a huge
thing for me because I never had that opportunity before.
(15:54):
If I was not under the covering of my husband,
you know, then I was ultimately not shielded from all
the evil darts that the world is throwing. And so yeah,
so that's I'm very grateful that we both can be,
you know, because we both came from that from the
move because he was there, even though he had not
grown up in it, he was there, and when we left,
(16:17):
he decided to leave with us and go with my family,
and so we went through all of that to where
we are now.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And so anyway, yeah, so my story is couldn't be
more different.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
Probably, please do tell So I think from.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Childhood, when all I was convinced so I didn't want
to have children at all anyway. I never wanted to
like grow up and be a wife and a mother.
I wanted to be an engineer. I wanted to be single.
I wanted to live in the city. Like that was
always always my goal from early childhood, and even within
(17:01):
the move I was still working toward that, Like when
I went to Alaska, I spent all of my time
on advanced maths, working toward the next step.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Like it was always my goal.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And part of that was also if I ever did
have children for any reason, I will never ever put
them in a situation like I have been put in
in every way like it was, it's going to be
totally different. So I went to college when I was seventeen,
to a Christian a private Christian school and in Texas,
(17:37):
and it was amazing. And most of the people there,
like missionary kids and preachers kids and the people who
you know, cared enough to send their kids to a
Christian school. So it was I was still kind of
in the bubble even though I was gone and I
was like at college, it was still kind of in
that same religious bubble that I had always been in.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
And so but it was good.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
But then my parents decided that they couldn't afford for
me to go there anymore, so they brought me home.
So then the next year, I lived at home and
went to community college, and I worked two jobs and
just you know, and the whole point was, I was
going to spend one year at home and go to
community college and get all these basic classes and then
(18:23):
I'm going to transfer to another university that i can
finish out my degree.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
And so that was a really really difficult year for me.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Because I was really upset that I had been taken
out of you know, finally, I had been happy at
college and had really good friends and it was a
really good environment, and I was angry at my.
Speaker 6 (18:44):
Parents really taking me out of that.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And also I was for the first time in a
secular school, so I'm like taking biology in a secular school,
Like I'm learning evolution for the first time in my
life at eighteen nineteen years old, and so like there
was those kind of things. And then I'm working jobs
(19:08):
and I still didn't have friends, but I had my
own computer because it because I was in school for
the first time. And that was the very beginning of
chat rooms back when we had like chatrooms and stuff,
and so I would go on these Christian chat rooms
and like try to help people. And there's this one
(19:31):
day I was in a Christian chat room and there
was some young woman talking about something and I was
giving her advice, and then this other person that was
called music Man for God was also giving her advice,
and we're saying a lot of the same things. And
(19:52):
so then this other person was like, hey, you know,
you're saying a lot of cool things. Can we have
like a chat outside or whatever, you know? So we
chatted a.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
Little bit and then he wanted to call me, and
this is all.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Like we're talking about God and our you know whatever.
So then he calls me and it turns out that
he's a thirty seven year old man. And this was
like a young people's chat room, Like this was for
like teens. So he's like, yeah, he's like thirty seven.
(20:28):
I'm eighteen at this point. And he calls and so
I'm like, you know, first conversation, we're talking about like
just God's stuff. And then he calls again and it
increasingly gets more creepy and sexual and he starts like
wanting things from me, and I'm like dude, you're what
(20:52):
you know? So I I'm like, no, that's that. No, No,
I'm not interested in that at all. And so I
cut off communication with him. And we saw we had
talked just a few months off and on, but like
as soon as it got to the point where he
was like and he even got to the point where
he was like, you shouldn't date other people and stuff,
(21:15):
and I'm like, who do you think you are?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
No?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And so anyway, so I cut off communication with him
go on with my life. But I was, you know,
looking for people to meet online and trying to find
connection online and you know, met some different people and
along that path I ended up getting into a situation
where I was taking advantage of and lost my virginity
(21:43):
too of not my own choice. And so at that
point I had like an existential crisis.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
I was like I don't because.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You know, I was still full force and purity culture
even though I'm like not in but still I'm like
in church. I'm still going to church. Even when I
was in college, I went to church every Sunday. I
had to go find my own church, but I was
in church every Sunday. So I'm still like full force
and purity culture. And in fact, first year of college,
(22:14):
I was like had a boyfriend. We were super in
love and we broke up because we were afraid we
would go too far physically, like that's how we're like.
It was, that was how serious it was. So when
that happened, and I just was like, oh right, I
have nothing left to live for, and I really like
(22:34):
didn't know what to It was just really awful, and
of course I didn't tell anybody, and of course I
thought it was my fault and all the things that
always happened, but it did send me down this path
of kind of not caring and not knowing. Like I
totally fell out of any of the ministry that I
was doing, Like anything that I was doing that could
(22:55):
be involved in church, I.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
Just stopped because how could I do that anymore?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And and so then I ended up. I just started
like dating. I was like, I guess I'll just date
like a normal person now there's nothing to preserve.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
And so I started.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Dating this guy and it was just like whatever, like
I don't really like him that much, but you know,
it was fun, I guess, and he really liked me,
so that was nice. And anyway, fast forward a year.
And oh and by the way, like the whole time
I'm dating this guy, I'm trying to bring him to
(23:36):
the church. I am we are not being physically, we're
not being intimate because I am being so strong. No,
we're not going to do that, you know. So like
in a year, you know, I could count on my
fingers how many times we ever crossed the line because
we weren't. I wasn't letting that happen. He was a
lot older than me, and of course he wanted to.
(23:58):
He already had a kid. I but I was just,
you know, I was still trying to be as good
as I could possibly be, even though I felt like
all was lost, I still was like, well, I'm not
gonna be I don't know, I don't even know what
I felt. But anyway, interestingly enough, he was really getting
(24:18):
involved in the church for me, one hundred percent for me.
But he had gone to like this Christian retreat that
was like associated with the youth retreat I had been
part of. Hed gone to it for adults, and so
I was really happy about that. And then he was
He and I were meeting because I was living at
college at this point in Asheville, North Carolina, and so
(24:39):
he and I were going to meet up in the
Charlotte area to go with my family to a church actually,
and I think I was like just so happy and
grateful that he was willing to do that. Then I
just thought I should give him a gift of intimacy.
(25:01):
And I got pregnant. And so I was nineteen, I
was finishing up my junior year of college, and I
got pregnant with someone that I had no intention of
being with.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Right, and.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
So the next existential crisis of Okay, I've just thrown
my life away, and also.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
The shame, I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Unimaginable shame and not knowing what to do and all
the things. Long story short, I broke up with him.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
I was like, I can't. I don't want to. He's
not a godly man, you know, Like.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
To me, like the most important thing if you're gonna
have kids, did you gotta have a godly man to
lead the family?
Speaker 6 (25:48):
You know?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
And what's really interesting is like even at that point
I had really gone away from the thinking so much,
like I had really kind of I was on my
own path.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
And I wasn't thinking that way. And even though I
was in the church.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Still I wasn't, you know, I just wasn't steeped in it.
But as soon as that happened, and the shame hit me,
and I was like, everything that I think about myself
is false. I am what everyone has said.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
I am. I am an evil, said.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Doctor's person who has put myself in this position. And
all of these things that I thought where I could
get better, I could be better.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Are false.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And I am just all I am destined to be
is a wife and a mother, and I'll never be
more than that.
Speaker 6 (26:37):
And so I ended.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Up breaking up with that guy. But but I didn't
know what that meant because I didn't know any single moms.
I didn't know if you could be a single mom.
I mean, as far as I was concerned, that you
don't do that. No one is a single parent. And
so then that weirdo guy from Chat to chat from
(27:02):
years ago had resurfaced somehow in another like I guess
he had my email I can't remember, but he had
resurfaced in the few months previous. And I wasn't telling anyone, like,
no friends, no fri, like no one knew that I
was pregnant because I was.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
And I told him because I was like, I don't
care about him. So I told him just sort of
like I'm really not doing well right now. I am
having you know, mentally, And so he starts saying, well,
who's going to be you know who? This child needs
(27:39):
a father, and so he really starts like saying like,
you know, how could you imagine that you could raise
this child on your own, your twenty year old girl,
You don't know anything. He needs a religious father, You
need someone to be and you know, you need someone
to be a leader and to give this child any
(28:01):
hope for a future.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
And so he.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Worked on me and worked on me, and so finally
I was like, yeah, I guess. And he also was like,
and who's ever gonna want you?
Speaker 6 (28:10):
Now? No one's ever gonna want.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
To be with you because first of all, it's obvious
you know, you were with that before you were married,
but then also like now you have a kid. So
he really like just wore me down to where I
was like, Okay, yeah, I guess you're right. And so
I told this guy who I didn't know, that like
(28:34):
basically i'd marry him. He's twice my age, and I
was like, yeah, I guess, I guess this is my
only choice. I guess you're the only godly person that
would ever accept me. So I ended up marrying him.
Like it was really awful, and mel was one of
the only people that was against it. But at the time,
(28:55):
I just felt like I had no choice. I really did.
I was just like I was trying to undo the sin,
you know, I was trying to like.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
Make up for it.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
And I and I didn't have like my parents were
not They were supportive in saying like, hey, you can
come home and live here, but they were not at
all emotionally supportive. They piled on the shame. They were like,
don't go out of the house. They wouldn't let me
tell anyone I was pregnant. They wanted to tell them
because they were so embarrassed. They wanted to weep their
(29:25):
own story. I mean, I was like just piled on
the shame, and and so I was like I got
to fix this, you know, I did this, and I
have to fix it.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
And so I married this guy, and.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I was marriaging for nine years and he went on
to be very spiritually abusive, physically abusive, like he was
a really awful person. Not And he also didn't provide
for me and my kids.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
I was just gonna say the fact that he's like, oh,
oh he needs a father, and I'm thinking, oh, that
kind of change, didn't it.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah Yeah, I mean like and he never was a
good provider ever. Like he was just not not he's
not a good person. He's not a good person.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
He's checking all the boxes.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (30:15):
So they did have a child together as well, Yes,
we did, because and that was planned because I always.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
Said if I did have a kid, I was going
to have two boys.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And I had had one boy, and I was like,
I don't want him to be alone and I want
to have another boy. So he was, you know, two
years later he had another boy, exactly as was I
should you know.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
So so yeah, So the.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Whole time I was with him, we were involved in
a church and where I was super.
Speaker 6 (30:55):
Involved in it.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I went through I ended up getting incredibly ill. I
was almost I was like bedridden for almost a year
and it was super super ill. And the only thing
I gave myself and my energy to at that time
was a church, because isn't that what you're supposed to.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Do, you know?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And and it was sort of especially in this church,
it was very much like, you know, you'll get back
tenfold what you put in, whether that's financial or whatever,
you know, and so it's like, I'm going to put
in any little bit of energy and health I have
to ministering because you know I'll get back tenfold.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
I guess right anyway.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
And but then when I finally like I really was
like on death's beed, and my parents had found a
treatment clinic to help me, and so we did this
big fundraiser to try to get money for me to
go to this clinic.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
And and so my my.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Parents are going to do the fundraiser, but they're like,
but I said, well we should do it. I live
because this is where my church family is, and everyone
who loves me is here, you know, because my parents
had their whole friend group. And so so we did it,
you know, at my place, and we advertise it in
the church bulletin for a few weeks and and we
(32:19):
have the event and not one person shows up, not one.
I mean this was a church that had like five
hundred members and I knew most of them because I
was in ministry. There not one person showed up. And
it was like, okay, wait a second, let's you know.
It really bade me take a step back and be like,
(32:43):
these people are not doing.
Speaker 6 (32:46):
What they say.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Of course they say that they want everyone to come in,
they're gonna love them and support them. I'm like, here's
this person who I've given everything to them and they're
not showing up to support me in smallest way. And
so I was really hurt and.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
Just kind of like fell out.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
I also, I went to treatment and then I had
bunths of recovery, so it gave me a reason to
not go. But I just never I never went back
to that church because I was just really hurt by that.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
And I was really hurt because.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I I felt like I'd really trusted God with marrying
my husband, you know, and I was like, okay, obviously,
because that's what he kept telling me, that God brought
him into my life for this reason and all this stuff,
you know, and so like, and when that was so awful,
I blame God.
Speaker 6 (33:40):
I'm like, how could you do this to me? Like
why me?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You know? And so I really did, like I just
went through a time of really blaming God and being
mad that I felt like I had given everything, and
all I got was just you know, abused, piled on
top of abuse, pot on top of abuse, you know,
and it was just really awful. And then so that
I did leave the church and I have not been
(34:05):
back involved in a church since then. I was two
thousand and nine. And then I also left my first
husband a few years later, and then I ended up
getting I was ended up getting into another relationship and
getting married again, and this one was very much my
(34:28):
own doing and someone that I fell in love with
and wanted to be with who was not at all
in the church, and I think I was really attracted
to that. And then he ended up being a very narcissistic,
abusive partner. And when that happened, that was like a
different sort of hitting my head against the wall feeling,
(34:52):
because it couldn't really look at anyone else. I couldn't
say it was anyone else's fault in a way, you know,
because before that I was like, Okay, my first husband
was absolutely a predator. He absolutely was and continued to
be so continues to be. So so it's like, Okay,
(35:13):
that was messed up, but like the kind of like
I was just in a really bad spot or whatever.
But then I was with my second husband, I was like,
I did this and I felt I was like, how
did I do this? And around that time that I
was really going through an awful time is when Mel
found the Enneagram.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
And like, because Mel was going.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Through her religious journey with all these churches and I
was very much kind of doing the opposite. There was
a lot of distance between us over the years because
I just couldn't. I watched what she was doing and
I was like, you are recreating our childhood and I
couldn't get behind that because because of you know, that
(35:57):
was the antithesis of what I wanted to do.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
And my kids went to public school.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
I liked.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right exactly, so like it really did put a lot
of distance between us. But then when I was going
through this is when she was discovering the enneagram, and
so she introduced me to the enneagram. And I originally, like,
for the first probably eight months, was using it to
try to type my husband, what's wrong with him? And
(36:24):
how can I Well, it wasn't really what's wrong with him?
It's just like, how can I understand him and make
me how can I know how to relate to him?
And how can I make this better. And then and
then finally I gave up on that and and just
start looking at it for myself. And I learned so
much about myself and in doing that and then realizing.
Speaker 6 (36:45):
Okay, how did I get here?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Like what in my life made it to where now
I'm in a second abusive relationship? And I'm like, you know,
how did I get here? And so in really digging
into it, I feel like it all goes back to
that early teaching of you know, not only do you
(37:09):
you know, I always felt like I didn't matter, but
it was like, yes, suffering is it's okay to suffer
and just push yourself through it, and you know you
can't trust yourself and you are bad at the core,
and you do have to submit to you know other
you know, all those things are you know, like entrenched
(37:29):
in my head, body, whatever, to the point where I think,
you know, I just kept continued making these bad decisions
for my life. But it was all kind of you
could trace it all back to those early teachings and
that kind of you know, you could say brainwashing or
just the literally my brain was forming, you know, the
(37:52):
cells of my brain, my neurons were forming while this
is what was being put in, so like I didn't
have a you know, we don't have a choice, so
I think, I mean, even now, it's it's a constant
evaluating of Okay, how do we You know, you can't
(38:13):
change who you are, but like, how can we? How
can I make better decisions? How can I figure out
how to undo that part of my story to where
I'm not making these bad decisions and sabotaging my life
and and hurting the people around me by making bad
decisions because ultimately, you know, I now, I have three
(38:37):
children and every decision I make has an impact on
their lives, you know. So so yeah, I'm not nor
do I ever plan to be involved in the church. Again,
I don't want to say like I have no faith
or relationship with God at all. It's something I'm still
(38:58):
kind of figuring out and evaluating. But I have a
lot of hurt towards the church in general, just like
as you know, and I just can't imagine myself trusting
that again. Yeah, yeah, sorry, Well, I think so much
of what both of us.
Speaker 5 (39:21):
Have learned is that we struggled so much with trusting ourselves.
We were told so much that we could not trust
ourselves that we were in the wrong always whatever, and
it was sinful to even try to trust yourself, you know,
you had all these people that could tell you the
right way to go. And I think that's so much
(39:44):
of both of our stories is just trying to get
to that place of where we can see ourselves as
a whole being that's okay to be able to make
decisions and to be able to you know, know what's
okay for us.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, And I think that's what's so interesting about our
story too, is that we're like so different and we
experienced the move so differently, and then post move, we
had vastly different experiences in life. But when we now
get back and we talk about the hurt or the
(40:24):
whatever it was that made us make these decisions, it's
exactly the same thing. Like we that same thing made
us make different decisions, but it's the same thing that
caused it, you know, which is crazy to me.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Yeah, same trigger was pulled. Yes, I'm actually reading a
book right now called What Happened to You, And basically
the whole premise of it is to not look at
someone and what they've gone through and what they're doing
and all of that and say what's wrong with you?
But to say, like, now let's take it back, like
(40:59):
what happened that triggered all of these things and kind
of like taking that stigma out of it. So when
you were talking, Liz, that kind of reminded me of that,
like looking at it that way. And also to your point,
was the two of you being siblings. I've always found
that fascinating since we have left, because I have four
siblings and there will be shared experiences that literally like
(41:21):
we're all in the same room for whatever this thing
is happening, and we all view it so differently, not
that we disagree on what happened necessarily, but like we
have like internalized that so very differently, and it made
people feel like complete opposites to where like my sister
(41:42):
Sarah will you know, she'll take it a completely different
way than what I was thinking or think about it now,
which I just think is really interesting because like you said,
it's the same thing, Like you're talking about the same
experiences that led you to where you ended up going,
you know, and nobody is the same. Nobody's one thing
I've thought about that too, Like it's just I mean,
(42:04):
for lack of a better term I hate to use,
you know, fascinating because it's people's lives and trauma and
pain and all that, you know what I mean, but
like it, for lack of a better word, it is
like just to kind of look at and to hear
your stories and like how different they can be from
this some of the same set of circumstances, just because
we're all so different in how we like internalize things.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah, I think since we started, like we didn't really
start talking about any of this until in our thirties,
But I think that's been the most fascinating part for
us is just how different our experience has been having
because we were like we were each other's everything for
so much of our lives. I mean, we we shared
(42:51):
a bedroom, we shared everything, we had no one else,
and to think that we went through all of those
things likely in lockstep. But then our experience was completely different,
and our takeaways from childhood were different, our takeaways as
adults are different. So it's it is fascinating, and I
(43:13):
think it took us actually working through some of the
stuff in childhood to come back to the place of
not just seeing each other and saying what are you doing?
Speaker 6 (43:24):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 5 (43:25):
Like we were judging each other because what we had
been taught was judge each other. But all of a sudden,
like and we start working through these things, we're like,
wait a minute, we're both hurting from the same stuff
and in the same way, we just responded differently to it,
that's all. So it's actually helped our relationship a lot
(43:49):
to actually work talk through these things and listen to
podcasts like yours where we it brings up stuff where
then we can say, oh, this relates to us in
this way. Let's talk through that, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Yeah, the the not judging each other part, like having
the the empathy. Once you kind of get out of
those systems, man, I feel like it can't be overstated.
Like where before you'd be like, what's your deal? Man?
Like why are you reacting this way? And then you're
you get out and you're like, oh, okay, yeah, you
you perceived that very differently than I did. And like
(44:25):
if I saw it the way that you saw and
felt it, I would be freaking out the same way
you are. So like you're absolutely valid because you felt
it very differently, you know, And who's to say that
one's right? Or one's wrong. It's just you're experiencing it differently.
And it's not like we each decide how we're gonna
react to something. It's you know, we're not saying they're like, hmmm,
(44:47):
am I gonna be upset about that? Like it's what happens,
you know, and how our makeup is. You know, that's
a really interesting point that I don't think we think
about as often. Well, it has been fantastic talking to
both of you guys. I really wish Ashley could have
been here. She would have enjoyed talking to you guys
(45:08):
a lot. I know she'll enjoy listening to it. But
before we leave, I always do like to kind of
give the end platform. Is there something that the both
of you would like to leave listeners with, whether they're
somebody who's coming out of a high control or have
been out of high control or never experienced it, like
(45:30):
something that you would want listeners to know about your
story and about the process that you guys have have
gone through in your healing.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
I think for me, the most important thing for me
to learn was to give myself grace for the fact
that I still I still functioned in some form of
what I was trying to get away from because I
(46:03):
didn't know any better, because I that's all I knew,
and that's how my brain was wired. And so when
I finally was starting to have those aha moments, there
was just so much guilt that I felt and I
had to just And actually I got a lot of
this from my kids, who were the ones who were like, dude,
(46:25):
you know, you're ultimately just duplicating what you grew up in.
But then they would tell me, Mom, it's okay, you
didn't know, you didn't know, and it's okay. You just
need to give yourself grace. And so that's probably one
of the main things that I think is very important.
It's just yes, get better, do better, you know, I mean,
(46:48):
grow and mature and work through the stuff, but give
yourself grace for the places that.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
It took a while to get there. So yeah, I
would have the second that. Honestly, that's been one of
the hardest things as as I've started to deal with
things more is giving myself grace in the fact that
I made bad decisions. You know, I am and put
(47:17):
my children in bad situations, and you know, and I
feel a lot.
Speaker 6 (47:24):
I feel really bad about that.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
But then I have to give my you know, I
have to look back at the reality of what happened
to me, you know, like you were saying, like what happened. Yeah,
I grew up in a high control group and I
had no frame of reference and then right, and then
I wasn't given the opportunity to process it. I was
just kind of thrown out into the world and like
figure it out, and yeah, I made bad decisions, you know,
(47:47):
so I did, so I have had Definitely it's been
difficult to give myself grace.
Speaker 6 (47:52):
So I would say.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Definitely that that's something that I would encourage people that
are working through it. And also just to look at
you know, look at situations with clear eyes and understand,
you know that you do have control of your life,
(48:16):
and you don't have to just give up control to
someone else just because that's what you maybe were like
trained that that's what you were supposed to do.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
But like to really understand.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
What life is, you know, like not not you know,
understand when you're in a controlling situation. And I think
for a lot of people that we're subject to these
types of situations, it's hard for us to understand sometimes
when we're in a controlling situation, and we're being controlled
because that's what feels good, that's normal. That feels normal
until it doesn't until it's really bad, you know. And
(48:53):
so that's something I've learning to having to learn for
myself is like, Okay, where's the line of what's controlling
and what's normal?
Speaker 4 (49:00):
And yeah, yeah, that's that is a process and a
struggle because I think not to get on a side
tangent too far, but when you come out, I think
the pendulum was so far this way, it swings back
and you where you didn't see anything before, now everything
looks like this. So it's hard to like find that
(49:24):
balance and get back in the center. If there is
such a thing to kind of you know, try to
see things for what they really are, because you know, you,
like you brought up earlier now like the you know,
you're kind of trained not to trust yourself, so it's
hard to just like flip a switch and be like,
actually I do trust myself now, Like that is not
(49:45):
how that works. But and then I will kind of
third both of your points to just from my perspective,
to be kind to your younger self, like along the
lines of like giving grace like I think most of
the time, when I look, I can see some of
the things I did or said. Like, I think for
the most part, I was doing what I thought I
(50:07):
should be doing. I was doing what I thought was right.
And I remember when I kind of reconnected with Ashley
after all those years, and I sent her a message
and apologized because I at this point, like I'm a
grown man, and I was thinking, like, when I was
a kid, maybe I didn't I couldn't have known better,
(50:27):
but like as a grown man, like I felt ashamed
that I hadn't worked through that up to that point.
But then also I look back at that now and say, like,
but how could I have really, Like the stakes were
too high If I had done that, I knew like, hey,
I can have a relationship with Ashley and never see
the rest of my family again, Like I know that now,
(50:48):
So kind of looking at that and saying, like, I
want to be a little bit kinder to my younger self.
And I think that's a good lesson for everybody listening,
no matter what you've gone through.
Speaker 6 (50:59):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Well, is there anything that you guys didn't get to
say that you want to say before we wrap or
anything like that. I want to make sure you have
all the space to say whatever you want to say.
Speaker 6 (51:15):
I think good, Yeah, you got it out.
Speaker 4 (51:18):
It's done. If you like this episode, please go leave
us a five star rating and review wherever that is,
if it's Apple, Spotify or another service. It's really helpful.
And don't forget to subscribe so that you can get
notified to when we have new episodes and updates and
things like that. Thanks, and we'll talk to you all
again next week.
The world tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Worldwide Church of God presents Herbert's w Armstrong and.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm here to bring you the truth. No one else
is telling you the things that God is telling you
through me.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
He's speaking through me the Lord.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Let me experience what it is to be a new bride.
You know, I'm not worried about what I'm about to say,
though it may be graphic. We're coming to the Lord
and if you can take it, beyond the veil is
the chamber. That's the wedding chamber.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
The Lord told me that.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
But from then on, visions begin to come. When this
comes up on me, it produces the vision. I'm able
to tell people what's wrong with them, what they must
do in life, and the sins that they are holding back.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
In their life. God is going to be moving vitally
in fot like he dies before booths judgments. Welcome back
everyone to the Cult Nextdoor podcast. If you are listening
to this, my condolences on missing out on the wrap
sure yesterday. If it makes you feel any better, it
(01:12):
could happen to anyone. I do recommend consoling yourself by
following us on our socials so Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. Also,
please leave us a voice message. I get really excited
every time I see one of the voice messages come through,
so please do that. If you have a moment you
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(01:35):
you're listening to right now, and also on our Instagram
and TikTok bios. You can find it there. Also leave
us a review. I'll read a quick one that we
got this week on Apple says. I look forward to
each episode. The pod is a place for more personal
stories of individuals who have lived through high control religion.
I laugh along sometimes I cry along. Makes a person
(01:57):
feel less alone and having made it through similar experiences.
That is from kt MM two to two was three
days ago. Thank you very much for that review. Listener.
If you have not left for a review yet and
you really enjoy the podcast, please go do that or
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really want to hear feedback from you guys. We really
enjoy that. Also, before we move on to today's episode,
(02:19):
as always, our Double Portion Club shoutouts Shanda and Chase,
Heather Bartlett, Carla.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Julia b.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Thank you all, very much for supporting the podcast in
the way that you do. Listener, if you would like
to be in this clubs ten bucks a month get
AD free episodes and this cool shout out, or you
can do a five dollars a month tier support the
work and you'll get AD free episodes and we'll send
you a really cool holographic Cultnick stoor Sticker. So today's
episode is Part three with Mel and Liz. I've really
(02:48):
really enjoyed talking to these two. I've enjoyed all of
our guests that we've had on the podcast so far
in the last two years. These two, in particular are
a couple of my favorites over the last two years.
Bummed out that actually couldn't be a part of the recording,
but we made do anyway. So we've got part three,
which is our final part with Melon Liz and I
hope you enjoy it. So, what were the kind of withdrawals,
(03:12):
like after you've come back from Alaska and you guys
are out, is that when you're kind of doing the
church hopping at that point still or like, what was
the withdrawal from what you've known for so many years?
What was that like?
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Well, we pretty quickly got involved with this one church
that was just a non denominational church and there was
some very loving, carrying people there that for me, it
was very soothing to just be around people who actually
seem to be nice, you know, and caring, and God
(03:52):
wasn't just totally associated with like, you know, keeping you
under his thumb, and you know, it wasn't all about suffering.
You could actually enjoy something in life and that kind
of thing. So that was that was kind of a
nice place for me to fall. So we were involved
(04:15):
in that church, and that's when my husband and I
got engaged, and then we.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Got married in that church.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
We had our first couple of kids while we were there,
and all of that. Through all of that, it was
just a very loving environment for us to be in.
So that's where I was like during that time. Excuse
me because like when Liz was up in Alaska, is
when I got married. She came back for the wedding
(04:45):
and then went back to Alaska and that kind of thing.
So I'm not saying I dealt with anything like I
was certainly not dealing with any of my trauma, but
it was a place that I could at least just
kind of live in a little bit of okayness and
(05:08):
people being kind and be okay with life to some degree.
So yeah, that's how it was for me, I thought,
you know, during that kind of initial leaving.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
I think, I think for.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Me, like all I had ever known was my entire
life to be about the church and about I mean
that that was literally my entire life. Everything was about church.
So the idea of it not being about that was difficult.
And I never got super plugged into this church that
(05:45):
I was talking about because.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
I was in and out a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I left, you know, I left to do other things
after the Alaska thing, so I wasn't super plugged in there.
But there was a a teen like group. They did
like retreats for girls, and so I got really involved
in and doing those retreats and like speaking, I would,
(06:09):
you know, preach or what you know, speak for to
the girls. And I was a leader, and I did
really want to stay involved in something that had to
do with I guess the church and God because I
didn't know any different. But you know, I just felt
(06:30):
like I had to do that, like I had to
be going to church and I had to be involved
because I didn't you know, I don't know what else
to do, So I really kind of just fell back
on that, trying to get plugged in anywhere I could
where I could, especially with young other young people. You know,
I really wanted to help young people. And I don't know,
(06:53):
I don't really, I don't know, but that's what I did.
I mean, like for the next year, because it was
one more year before I left to go to college,
and I, yeah, I was just I was in the
youth group, I was doing these retreats. I was just
really kind of doing everything I possibly could to be.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
I guess witnessing. I don't know what else you call it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I don't know, you know, helping being involved with young
people in the church in some way.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
So then Meil, you're kind of talking about, you know,
you're there in that non denominational church and you're you know, married,
you're having kids and all this like when did or
how did it shift from you being kind of in
a new church and this kind of new thing. Talk
(07:43):
to me about the progression and the same for you
now like through those same years and you're going to
college and all this, like how how were you working
through what you had just been through or were you.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
So I would say for me, I just immediately fell
into putting myself completely still into whatever religious system we were.
And so after a few years of being at that church,
we moved to the Charlotte, North Carolina area, and so
(08:21):
we had to look for a church for the first time,
my husband I had to look for a church, and
that became a lot because we'd never had to do
that before. And so we're like, you know, what's important,
what's needed? Is it okay for us to try out
different denominations, you know, all that kind of stuff. And
(08:41):
there's a kind of I would say about five years
of us just not knowing what to do and floundering
a bit, and then finally we find this group that's
starting a new church and there were homeschool They were
all homeschoolers, which we were homeschooling our children at the time,
(09:05):
and they were they seemed to be they're all around
our ages, like, you know, they had a lot of
kids the same ages as our kids. It just was
like it was a great community for us in a
lot of ways. And so we decided to join this
church and it was another ultimately it was acts twenty
(09:25):
nine church. If you know anything about those they're just
it's a whole another set of control. And I was
comfortable in that because that's what I'd known.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You know.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
It's just like for me, it's like I just tended
to just fall right back into that line of thinking.
Even now it's at that point it'd been like ten
years since we left, and still in my mind it
was like you have to be so sold out and
(10:03):
so like all in with God, with whatever teaching that
I was under at that time, that there was no
room for leeway. There was no room for us having
any say over our life. It was whatever we felt
like God was leading us to do. And this particular
(10:25):
group was very patriarchal. They were a quiver full movement,
which means that they were all about having as many
kids as you can. And so we have eight, which
came a lot from that because we were in this
group that we were like, that's the way to be holy,
(10:47):
that's the way to show that you're all in for
God is to give him your womb. And so I
didn't feel like how to say over anything. I didn't
feel like how to say over my body. I didn't
feel like how to say over what was going on
in our house because even though my husband was not
(11:08):
the kind of person that is like necessarily domineering, he
very easily can you know, he was going to keep
the status quo of the church and what they you know,
so I still could talk to him, but he had
the final say, you know, because he felt like that
was his place under God to have the final say.
(11:29):
And there was just a lot that went into that.
There was in it. Once again, it wasn't because either
of us necessarily even wholeheartedly believed all these things. But
this is the group that we chose to be in,
so we were going to go with what that group said.
And this is where I why I feel like I
(11:50):
have so much understanding and give so much grace to
my parents is because I then lived it as the parent.
And so when my oldest children became teenagers and started
to fight back a bit, all of a sudden, I
realized I had literally just put them in the same situation.
(12:12):
It looked a little different, it wasn't quite as severe.
We never lived in a commune, you know, but it
still was a very similar situation that I then raised
them in because I never worked through the crap that
I grew up with So when my oldest was about
(12:33):
seventeen or eighteen, and she was like, you know, what
the heck, what are y'all doing? Why are you in
this kind of stuff? I all of a sudden, I
actually started listening, and I don't even know exactly I
had started working through some stuff with purity culture. Working
through purity culture actually was I think the beginning stages
(12:57):
for me. So that was in my mid thirties. I
already had eight kids, I had you know, teenage children,
and all of a sudden, I realized it was actually
okay if I enjoyed any type of sexual encounter with
my husband, that was actually okay. And that was the
(13:18):
first time in my life that I actually finally came
to that because it didn't make me sinful, it didn't
make me a seductress just because I wanted to be
with my husband. So just I know, it sounds so crazy,
but it's like when you're taught that mindset and that's
(13:39):
all you have, it's just like I always felt dirty.
I always felt dirty because I'm like, I can't have feelings,
I can't have desires. You're not allowed to have desires,
and it be of God and even as a grown
adult married for you know, twenty years. Woman here, I'm
like having to fight through that. So that was probably
(14:01):
the very beginning stages. And then I got introduced to
the enneagram and I started learning about that and that
just started helping me understand myself and others around me
and my oldest were definitely challenging what we were had
been teaching them and the group like at that point.
(14:23):
By that time we were in a house church.
Speaker 6 (14:25):
Where we were.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
It was just it was just like living in another
group like that. I mean, you know, here we're in
a house church. It's all about you know, being a community.
But it was also all about isolating yourself, you know,
and not letting the world get to you or your children.
And even though I never put my kids in the
same situations I was in as a teenager, in a
(14:49):
lot of ways, I still isolated them greatly from things.
So once I started working through some of that stuff,
everything kind of just broke close. I was like, I'm
just going to start figuring this stuff out. And it
included a lot of hard times, like because I had
to start actually dealing with not only the reality of
(15:11):
what I grew up in and the trauma that that
had been, but what I had then because of that,
done with my own kids. So that's kind of my
story of working through that. And I'm currently not in
any church. My husband is still very active, extremely active
(15:33):
in a church that he's in right now. But we're
at a place in our marriage, in our life where
we can very happily say you can do your thing
and I can do my thing and we're okay, which
is it's a huge thing for us and a huge
thing for me because I never had that opportunity before.
(15:54):
If I was not under the covering of my husband,
you know, then I was ultimately not shielded from all
the evil darts that the world is throwing. And so yeah,
so that's I'm very grateful that we both can be,
you know, because we both came from that from the
move because he was there, even though he had not
grown up in it, he was there, and when we left,
(16:17):
he decided to leave with us and go with my family,
and so we went through all of that to where
we are now.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And so anyway, yeah, so my story is couldn't be
more different.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
Probably, please do tell So I think from.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Childhood, when all I was convinced so I didn't want
to have children at all anyway. I never wanted to
like grow up and be a wife and a mother.
I wanted to be an engineer. I wanted to be single.
I wanted to live in the city. Like that was
always always my goal from early childhood, and even within
(17:01):
the move I was still working toward that, Like when
I went to Alaska, I spent all of my time
on advanced maths, working toward the next step.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Like it was always my goal.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And part of that was also if I ever did
have children for any reason, I will never ever put
them in a situation like I have been put in
in every way like it was, it's going to be
totally different. So I went to college when I was seventeen,
to a Christian a private Christian school and in Texas,
(17:37):
and it was amazing. And most of the people there,
like missionary kids and preachers kids and the people who
you know, cared enough to send their kids to a
Christian school. So it was I was still kind of
in the bubble even though I was gone and I
was like at college, it was still kind of in
that same religious bubble that I had always been in.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
And so but it was good.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
But then my parents decided that they couldn't afford for
me to go there anymore, so they brought me home.
So then the next year, I lived at home and
went to community college, and I worked two jobs and
just you know, and the whole point was, I was
going to spend one year at home and go to
community college and get all these basic classes and then
(18:23):
I'm going to transfer to another university that i can
finish out my degree.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
And so that was a really really difficult year for me.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Because I was really upset that I had been taken
out of you know, finally, I had been happy at
college and had really good friends and it was a
really good environment, and I was angry at my.
Speaker 6 (18:44):
Parents really taking me out of that.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And also I was for the first time in a
secular school, so I'm like taking biology in a secular school,
Like I'm learning evolution for the first time in my
life at eighteen nineteen years old, and so like there
was those kind of things. And then I'm working jobs
(19:08):
and I still didn't have friends, but I had my
own computer because it because I was in school for
the first time. And that was the very beginning of
chat rooms back when we had like chatrooms and stuff,
and so I would go on these Christian chat rooms
and like try to help people. And there's this one
(19:31):
day I was in a Christian chat room and there
was some young woman talking about something and I was
giving her advice, and then this other person that was
called music Man for God was also giving her advice,
and we're saying a lot of the same things. And
(19:52):
so then this other person was like, hey, you know,
you're saying a lot of cool things. Can we have
like a chat outside or whatever, you know? So we
chatted a.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
Little bit and then he wanted to call me, and
this is all.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Like we're talking about God and our you know whatever.
So then he calls me and it turns out that
he's a thirty seven year old man. And this was
like a young people's chat room, Like this was for
like teens. So he's like, yeah, he's like thirty seven.
(20:28):
I'm eighteen at this point. And he calls and so
I'm like, you know, first conversation, we're talking about like
just God's stuff. And then he calls again and it
increasingly gets more creepy and sexual and he starts like
wanting things from me, and I'm like dude, you're what
(20:52):
you know? So I I'm like, no, that's that. No, No,
I'm not interested in that at all. And so I
cut off communication with him. And we saw we had
talked just a few months off and on, but like
as soon as it got to the point where he
was like and he even got to the point where
he was like, you shouldn't date other people and stuff,
(21:15):
and I'm like, who do you think you are?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
No?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And so anyway, so I cut off communication with him
go on with my life. But I was, you know,
looking for people to meet online and trying to find
connection online and you know, met some different people and
along that path I ended up getting into a situation
where I was taking advantage of and lost my virginity
(21:43):
too of not my own choice. And so at that
point I had like an existential crisis.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
I was like I don't because.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You know, I was still full force and purity culture
even though I'm like not in but still I'm like
in church. I'm still going to church. Even when I
was in college, I went to church every Sunday. I
had to go find my own church, but I was
in church every Sunday. So I'm still like full force
and purity culture. And in fact, first year of college,
(22:14):
I was like had a boyfriend. We were super in
love and we broke up because we were afraid we
would go too far physically, like that's how we're like.
It was, that was how serious it was. So when
that happened, and I just was like, oh right, I
have nothing left to live for, and I really like
(22:34):
didn't know what to It was just really awful, and
of course I didn't tell anybody, and of course I
thought it was my fault and all the things that
always happened, but it did send me down this path
of kind of not caring and not knowing. Like I
totally fell out of any of the ministry that I
was doing, Like anything that I was doing that could
(22:55):
be involved in church, I.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
Just stopped because how could I do that anymore?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And and so then I ended up. I just started
like dating. I was like, I guess I'll just date
like a normal person now there's nothing to preserve.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
And so I started.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Dating this guy and it was just like whatever, like
I don't really like him that much, but you know,
it was fun, I guess, and he really liked me,
so that was nice. And anyway, fast forward a year.
And oh and by the way, like the whole time
I'm dating this guy, I'm trying to bring him to
(23:36):
the church. I am we are not being physically, we're
not being intimate because I am being so strong. No,
we're not going to do that, you know. So like
in a year, you know, I could count on my
fingers how many times we ever crossed the line because
we weren't. I wasn't letting that happen. He was a
lot older than me, and of course he wanted to.
(23:58):
He already had a kid. I but I was just,
you know, I was still trying to be as good
as I could possibly be, even though I felt like
all was lost, I still was like, well, I'm not
gonna be I don't know, I don't even know what
I felt. But anyway, interestingly enough, he was really getting
(24:18):
involved in the church for me, one hundred percent for me.
But he had gone to like this Christian retreat that
was like associated with the youth retreat I had been
part of. Hed gone to it for adults, and so
I was really happy about that. And then he was
He and I were meeting because I was living at
college at this point in Asheville, North Carolina, and so
(24:39):
he and I were going to meet up in the
Charlotte area to go with my family to a church actually,
and I think I was like just so happy and
grateful that he was willing to do that. Then I
just thought I should give him a gift of intimacy.
(25:01):
And I got pregnant. And so I was nineteen, I
was finishing up my junior year of college, and I
got pregnant with someone that I had no intention of
being with.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Right, and.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
So the next existential crisis of Okay, I've just thrown
my life away, and also.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
The shame, I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Unimaginable shame and not knowing what to do and all
the things. Long story short, I broke up with him.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
I was like, I can't. I don't want to. He's
not a godly man, you know, Like.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
To me, like the most important thing if you're gonna
have kids, did you gotta have a godly man to
lead the family?
Speaker 6 (25:48):
You know?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
And what's really interesting is like even at that point
I had really gone away from the thinking so much,
like I had really kind of I was on my
own path.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
And I wasn't thinking that way. And even though I
was in the church.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Still I wasn't, you know, I just wasn't steeped in it.
But as soon as that happened, and the shame hit me,
and I was like, everything that I think about myself
is false. I am what everyone has said.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
I am. I am an evil, said.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Doctor's person who has put myself in this position. And
all of these things that I thought where I could
get better, I could be better.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Are false.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And I am just all I am destined to be
is a wife and a mother, and I'll never be
more than that.
Speaker 6 (26:37):
And so I ended.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Up breaking up with that guy. But but I didn't
know what that meant because I didn't know any single moms.
I didn't know if you could be a single mom.
I mean, as far as I was concerned, that you
don't do that. No one is a single parent. And
so then that weirdo guy from Chat to chat from
(27:02):
years ago had resurfaced somehow in another like I guess
he had my email I can't remember, but he had
resurfaced in the few months previous. And I wasn't telling anyone, like,
no friends, no fri, like no one knew that I
was pregnant because I was.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
And I told him because I was like, I don't
care about him. So I told him just sort of
like I'm really not doing well right now. I am
having you know, mentally, And so he starts saying, well,
who's going to be you know who? This child needs
(27:39):
a father, and so he really starts like saying like,
you know, how could you imagine that you could raise
this child on your own, your twenty year old girl,
You don't know anything. He needs a religious father, You
need someone to be and you know, you need someone
to be a leader and to give this child any
(28:01):
hope for a future.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
And so he.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Worked on me and worked on me, and so finally
I was like, yeah, I guess. And he also was like,
and who's ever gonna want you?
Speaker 6 (28:10):
Now? No one's ever gonna want.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
To be with you because first of all, it's obvious
you know, you were with that before you were married,
but then also like now you have a kid. So
he really like just wore me down to where I
was like, Okay, yeah, I guess you're right. And so
I told this guy who I didn't know, that like
(28:34):
basically i'd marry him. He's twice my age, and I
was like, yeah, I guess, I guess this is my
only choice. I guess you're the only godly person that
would ever accept me. So I ended up marrying him.
Like it was really awful, and mel was one of
the only people that was against it. But at the time,
(28:55):
I just felt like I had no choice. I really did.
I was just like I was trying to undo the sin,
you know, I was trying to like.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
Make up for it.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
And I and I didn't have like my parents were
not They were supportive in saying like, hey, you can
come home and live here, but they were not at
all emotionally supportive. They piled on the shame. They were like,
don't go out of the house. They wouldn't let me
tell anyone I was pregnant. They wanted to tell them
because they were so embarrassed. They wanted to weep their
(29:25):
own story. I mean, I was like just piled on
the shame, and and so I was like I got
to fix this, you know, I did this, and I
have to fix it.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
And so I married this guy, and.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I was marriaging for nine years and he went on
to be very spiritually abusive, physically abusive, like he was
a really awful person. Not And he also didn't provide
for me and my kids.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
I was just gonna say the fact that he's like, oh,
oh he needs a father, and I'm thinking, oh, that
kind of change, didn't it.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah Yeah, I mean like and he never was a
good provider ever. Like he was just not not he's
not a good person. He's not a good person.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
He's checking all the boxes.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (30:15):
So they did have a child together as well, Yes,
we did, because and that was planned because I always.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
Said if I did have a kid, I was going
to have two boys.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And I had had one boy, and I was like,
I don't want him to be alone and I want
to have another boy. So he was, you know, two
years later he had another boy, exactly as was I
should you know.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
So so yeah, So the.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Whole time I was with him, we were involved in
a church and where I was super.
Speaker 6 (30:55):
Involved in it.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I went through I ended up getting incredibly ill. I
was almost I was like bedridden for almost a year
and it was super super ill. And the only thing
I gave myself and my energy to at that time
was a church, because isn't that what you're supposed to.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Do, you know?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And and it was sort of especially in this church,
it was very much like, you know, you'll get back
tenfold what you put in, whether that's financial or whatever,
you know, and so it's like, I'm going to put
in any little bit of energy and health I have
to ministering because you know I'll get back tenfold.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
I guess right anyway.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
And but then when I finally like I really was
like on death's beed, and my parents had found a
treatment clinic to help me, and so we did this
big fundraiser to try to get money for me to
go to this clinic.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
And and so my my.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Parents are going to do the fundraiser, but they're like,
but I said, well we should do it. I live
because this is where my church family is, and everyone
who loves me is here, you know, because my parents
had their whole friend group. And so so we did it,
you know, at my place, and we advertise it in
the church bulletin for a few weeks and and we
(32:19):
have the event and not one person shows up, not one.
I mean this was a church that had like five
hundred members and I knew most of them because I
was in ministry. There not one person showed up. And
it was like, okay, wait a second, let's you know.
It really bade me take a step back and be like,
(32:43):
these people are not doing.
Speaker 6 (32:46):
What they say.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Of course they say that they want everyone to come in,
they're gonna love them and support them. I'm like, here's
this person who I've given everything to them and they're
not showing up to support me in smallest way. And
so I was really hurt and.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
Just kind of like fell out.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
I also, I went to treatment and then I had
bunths of recovery, so it gave me a reason to
not go. But I just never I never went back
to that church because I was just really hurt by that.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
And I was really hurt because.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I I felt like I'd really trusted God with marrying
my husband, you know, and I was like, okay, obviously,
because that's what he kept telling me, that God brought
him into my life for this reason and all this stuff,
you know, and so like, and when that was so awful,
I blame God.
Speaker 6 (33:40):
I'm like, how could you do this to me? Like
why me?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You know? And so I really did, like I just
went through a time of really blaming God and being
mad that I felt like I had given everything, and
all I got was just you know, abused, piled on
top of abuse, pot on top of abuse, you know,
and it was just really awful. And then so that
I did leave the church and I have not been
(34:05):
back involved in a church since then. I was two
thousand and nine. And then I also left my first
husband a few years later, and then I ended up
getting I was ended up getting into another relationship and
getting married again, and this one was very much my
(34:28):
own doing and someone that I fell in love with
and wanted to be with who was not at all
in the church, and I think I was really attracted
to that. And then he ended up being a very narcissistic,
abusive partner. And when that happened, that was like a
different sort of hitting my head against the wall feeling,
(34:52):
because it couldn't really look at anyone else. I couldn't
say it was anyone else's fault in a way, you know,
because before that I was like, Okay, my first husband
was absolutely a predator. He absolutely was and continued to
be so continues to be. So so it's like, Okay,
(35:13):
that was messed up, but like the kind of like
I was just in a really bad spot or whatever.
But then I was with my second husband, I was like,
I did this and I felt I was like, how
did I do this? And around that time that I
was really going through an awful time is when Mel
found the Enneagram.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
And like, because Mel was going.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Through her religious journey with all these churches and I
was very much kind of doing the opposite. There was
a lot of distance between us over the years because
I just couldn't. I watched what she was doing and
I was like, you are recreating our childhood and I
couldn't get behind that because because of you know, that
(35:57):
was the antithesis of what I wanted to do.
Speaker 6 (35:58):
And my kids went to public school.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
I liked.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right exactly, so like it really did put a lot
of distance between us. But then when I was going
through this is when she was discovering the enneagram, and
so she introduced me to the enneagram. And I originally, like,
for the first probably eight months, was using it to
try to type my husband, what's wrong with him? And
(36:24):
how can I Well, it wasn't really what's wrong with him?
It's just like, how can I understand him and make
me how can I know how to relate to him?
And how can I make this better. And then and
then finally I gave up on that and and just
start looking at it for myself. And I learned so
much about myself and in doing that and then realizing.
Speaker 6 (36:45):
Okay, how did I get here?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Like what in my life made it to where now
I'm in a second abusive relationship? And I'm like, you know,
how did I get here? And so in really digging
into it, I feel like it all goes back to
that early teaching of you know, not only do you
(37:09):
you know, I always felt like I didn't matter, but
it was like, yes, suffering is it's okay to suffer
and just push yourself through it, and you know you
can't trust yourself and you are bad at the core,
and you do have to submit to you know other
you know, all those things are you know, like entrenched
(37:29):
in my head, body, whatever, to the point where I think,
you know, I just kept continued making these bad decisions
for my life. But it was all kind of you
could trace it all back to those early teachings and
that kind of you know, you could say brainwashing or
just the literally my brain was forming, you know, the
(37:52):
cells of my brain, my neurons were forming while this
is what was being put in, so like I didn't
have a you know, we don't have a choice, so
I think, I mean, even now, it's it's a constant
evaluating of Okay, how do we You know, you can't
(38:13):
change who you are, but like, how can we? How
can I make better decisions? How can I figure out
how to undo that part of my story to where
I'm not making these bad decisions and sabotaging my life
and and hurting the people around me by making bad
decisions because ultimately, you know, I now, I have three
(38:37):
children and every decision I make has an impact on
their lives, you know. So so yeah, I'm not nor
do I ever plan to be involved in the church. Again,
I don't want to say like I have no faith
or relationship with God at all. It's something I'm still
(38:58):
kind of figuring out and evaluating. But I have a
lot of hurt towards the church in general, just like
as you know, and I just can't imagine myself trusting
that again. Yeah, yeah, sorry, Well, I think so much
of what both of us.
Speaker 5 (39:21):
Have learned is that we struggled so much with trusting ourselves.
We were told so much that we could not trust
ourselves that we were in the wrong always whatever, and
it was sinful to even try to trust yourself, you know,
you had all these people that could tell you the
right way to go. And I think that's so much
(39:44):
of both of our stories is just trying to get
to that place of where we can see ourselves as
a whole being that's okay to be able to make
decisions and to be able to you know, know what's
okay for us.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, And I think that's what's so interesting about our
story too, is that we're like so different and we
experienced the move so differently, and then post move, we
had vastly different experiences in life. But when we now
get back and we talk about the hurt or the
(40:24):
whatever it was that made us make these decisions, it's
exactly the same thing. Like we that same thing made
us make different decisions, but it's the same thing that
caused it, you know, which is crazy to me.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Yeah, same trigger was pulled. Yes, I'm actually reading a
book right now called What Happened to You, And basically
the whole premise of it is to not look at
someone and what they've gone through and what they're doing
and all of that and say what's wrong with you?
But to say, like, now let's take it back, like
(40:59):
what happened that triggered all of these things and kind
of like taking that stigma out of it. So when
you were talking, Liz, that kind of reminded me of that,
like looking at it that way. And also to your point,
was the two of you being siblings. I've always found
that fascinating since we have left, because I have four
siblings and there will be shared experiences that literally like
(41:21):
we're all in the same room for whatever this thing
is happening, and we all view it so differently, not
that we disagree on what happened necessarily, but like we
have like internalized that so very differently, and it made
people feel like complete opposites to where like my sister
(41:42):
Sarah will you know, she'll take it a completely different
way than what I was thinking or think about it now,
which I just think is really interesting because like you said,
it's the same thing, Like you're talking about the same
experiences that led you to where you ended up going,
you know, and nobody is the same. Nobody's one thing
I've thought about that too, Like it's just I mean,
(42:04):
for lack of a better term I hate to use,
you know, fascinating because it's people's lives and trauma and
pain and all that, you know what I mean, but
like it, for lack of a better word, it is
like just to kind of look at and to hear
your stories and like how different they can be from
this some of the same set of circumstances, just because
we're all so different in how we like internalize things.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah, I think since we started, like we didn't really
start talking about any of this until in our thirties,
But I think that's been the most fascinating part for
us is just how different our experience has been having
because we were like we were each other's everything for
so much of our lives. I mean, we we shared
(42:51):
a bedroom, we shared everything, we had no one else,
and to think that we went through all of those
things likely in lockstep. But then our experience was completely different,
and our takeaways from childhood were different, our takeaways as
adults are different. So it's it is fascinating, and I
(43:13):
think it took us actually working through some of the
stuff in childhood to come back to the place of
not just seeing each other and saying what are you doing?
Speaker 6 (43:24):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 5 (43:25):
Like we were judging each other because what we had
been taught was judge each other. But all of a sudden,
like and we start working through these things, we're like,
wait a minute, we're both hurting from the same stuff
and in the same way, we just responded differently to it,
that's all. So it's actually helped our relationship a lot
(43:49):
to actually work talk through these things and listen to
podcasts like yours where we it brings up stuff where
then we can say, oh, this relates to us in
this way. Let's talk through that, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Yeah, the the not judging each other part, like having
the the empathy. Once you kind of get out of
those systems, man, I feel like it can't be overstated.
Like where before you'd be like, what's your deal? Man?
Like why are you reacting this way? And then you're
you get out and you're like, oh, okay, yeah, you
you perceived that very differently than I did. And like
(44:25):
if I saw it the way that you saw and
felt it, I would be freaking out the same way
you are. So like you're absolutely valid because you felt
it very differently, you know, And who's to say that
one's right? Or one's wrong. It's just you're experiencing it differently.
And it's not like we each decide how we're gonna
react to something. It's you know, we're not saying they're like, hmmm,
(44:47):
am I gonna be upset about that? Like it's what happens,
you know, and how our makeup is. You know, that's
a really interesting point that I don't think we think
about as often. Well, it has been fantastic talking to
both of you guys. I really wish Ashley could have
been here. She would have enjoyed talking to you guys
(45:08):
a lot. I know she'll enjoy listening to it. But
before we leave, I always do like to kind of
give the end platform. Is there something that the both
of you would like to leave listeners with, whether they're
somebody who's coming out of a high control or have
been out of high control or never experienced it, like
(45:30):
something that you would want listeners to know about your
story and about the process that you guys have have
gone through in your healing.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
I think for me, the most important thing for me
to learn was to give myself grace for the fact
that I still I still functioned in some form of
what I was trying to get away from because I
(46:03):
didn't know any better, because I that's all I knew,
and that's how my brain was wired. And so when
I finally was starting to have those aha moments, there
was just so much guilt that I felt and I
had to just And actually I got a lot of
this from my kids, who were the ones who were like, dude,
(46:25):
you know, you're ultimately just duplicating what you grew up in.
But then they would tell me, Mom, it's okay, you
didn't know, you didn't know, and it's okay. You just
need to give yourself grace. And so that's probably one
of the main things that I think is very important.
It's just yes, get better, do better, you know, I mean,
(46:48):
grow and mature and work through the stuff, but give
yourself grace for the places that.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
It took a while to get there. So yeah, I
would have the second that. Honestly, that's been one of
the hardest things as as I've started to deal with
things more is giving myself grace in the fact that
I made bad decisions. You know, I am and put
(47:17):
my children in bad situations, and you know, and I
feel a lot.
Speaker 6 (47:24):
I feel really bad about that.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
But then I have to give my you know, I
have to look back at the reality of what happened
to me, you know, like you were saying, like what happened. Yeah,
I grew up in a high control group and I
had no frame of reference and then right, and then
I wasn't given the opportunity to process it. I was
just kind of thrown out into the world and like
figure it out, and yeah, I made bad decisions, you know,
(47:47):
so I did, so I have had Definitely it's been
difficult to give myself grace.
Speaker 6 (47:52):
So I would say.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Definitely that that's something that I would encourage people that
are working through it. And also just to look at
you know, look at situations with clear eyes and understand,
you know that you do have control of your life,
(48:16):
and you don't have to just give up control to
someone else just because that's what you maybe were like
trained that that's what you were supposed to do.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
But like to really understand.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
What life is, you know, like not not you know,
understand when you're in a controlling situation. And I think
for a lot of people that we're subject to these
types of situations, it's hard for us to understand sometimes
when we're in a controlling situation, and we're being controlled
because that's what feels good, that's normal. That feels normal
until it doesn't until it's really bad, you know. And
(48:53):
so that's something I've learning to having to learn for
myself is like, Okay, where's the line of what's controlling
and what's normal?
Speaker 4 (49:00):
And yeah, yeah, that's that is a process and a
struggle because I think not to get on a side
tangent too far, but when you come out, I think
the pendulum was so far this way, it swings back
and you where you didn't see anything before, now everything
looks like this. So it's hard to like find that
(49:24):
balance and get back in the center. If there is
such a thing to kind of you know, try to
see things for what they really are, because you know, you,
like you brought up earlier now like the you know,
you're kind of trained not to trust yourself, so it's
hard to just like flip a switch and be like,
actually I do trust myself now, Like that is not
(49:45):
how that works. But and then I will kind of
third both of your points to just from my perspective,
to be kind to your younger self, like along the
lines of like giving grace like I think most of
the time, when I look, I can see some of
the things I did or said. Like, I think for
the most part, I was doing what I thought I
(50:07):
should be doing. I was doing what I thought was right.
And I remember when I kind of reconnected with Ashley
after all those years, and I sent her a message
and apologized because I at this point, like I'm a
grown man, and I was thinking, like, when I was
a kid, maybe I didn't I couldn't have known better,
(50:27):
but like as a grown man, like I felt ashamed
that I hadn't worked through that up to that point.
But then also I look back at that now and say, like,
but how could I have really, Like the stakes were
too high If I had done that, I knew like, hey,
I can have a relationship with Ashley and never see
the rest of my family again, Like I know that now,
(50:48):
So kind of looking at that and saying, like, I
want to be a little bit kinder to my younger self.
And I think that's a good lesson for everybody listening,
no matter what you've gone through.
Speaker 6 (50:59):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Well, is there anything that you guys didn't get to
say that you want to say before we wrap or
anything like that. I want to make sure you have
all the space to say whatever you want to say.
Speaker 6 (51:15):
I think good, Yeah, you got it out.
Speaker 4 (51:18):
It's done. If you like this episode, please go leave
us a five star rating and review wherever that is,
if it's Apple, Spotify or another service. It's really helpful.
And don't forget to subscribe so that you can get
notified to when we have new episodes and updates and
things like that. Thanks, and we'll talk to you all
again next week.
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