June 9, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode, I sat down with Dr. Danielle Henry, an organizational leader and cultural intelligence expert, to explore how leadership psychology and empathetic practices shape workplace culture. We talked about the mosaic of cultural backgrounds present in every organization, and the need to build systems that support, not just demand our best efforts. From her reflections on global project work to her bold take on the “dark side” of cultural intelligence, Dannie brought deep insight and a grounded honesty to the table. Whether you’re in the boardroom or out on site, this one’s packed with truths worth holding onto.
Here are my 5 key takeaways
CQ Goes Beyond Culture Days
Don’t let cultural awareness be a checkbox. Create real, immersive opportunities for people to engage with different worldviews, celebrating culture days is great, but go beyond that to help your workers truly understand the why behind their values and norms.
- Wellbeing Requires Systems, Not Perks
Massages and gym passes are nice, but what your people really need are integrated support systems: regular opportunities to give your brain a break, through mindfulness sessions or mental health breaks that aren’t guilt-ridden. - Middle Management is the Culture Bottleneck
Senior leaders might “get it”, but culture lives and dies with middle managers. Train and empower them with CQ tools, not just policy handbooks. - Don’t Confuse Knowledge with Competency
Knowing about a culture isn’t the same as leading effectively across difference. Competency means applying that knowledge with nuance, respect, and humility. - Burnout is a Leadership Issue, Not Just an HR One
When your caregivers are exhausted, your system is failing. Make wellbeing for health and safety professionals a strategic priority, not just a wellness week initiative.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this episode we head to NewYork, that's right, the big
Apple and chat with Dr.
Danielle Antoinette Henry orDannie to her friends.
And I think I fit into thatcategory and qualified
Dannie (01:27):
category.
Yes, you do.
Greg (01:29):
Dannie is an accomplished management consultant and
organizational leader,specializing in empathetic
leadership, project managementand cultural intelligence.
She's the founder of and CEO ofGreat Dane 921 Consulting, where
she advises organizations onbuilding more compassionate,
transparent workplace cultures.
(01:51):
Her consulting expertiseincludes leading catalysts
#biascorrect social mediacampaign for International
Women's Day in 2022, whichfocused on redefining leadership
through empathy.
Dannie recently served as adirector of project management
at Tier One Solutions Groupoverseeing strategic marketing
initiatives, organizationaltransformation, and
(02:14):
cross-functional projectdelivery.
She brings a unique blend ofleadership, psychology,
strategic planning, and culturalinsight to every engagement.
Dannie earned her doctorate inleadership psychology with a
concentration in neuroscience ofleadership from William James
College.
She holds a MPA in public andnonprofit management from NYU
(02:36):
Wagner and a BA in AmericanPolitics from the NYU College of
Arts and Science.
Her credentials include, getthis a certified Scrum master, a
registered parliamentarian, aFINRA arbitrator, and a
certificate in projectleadership from Cornell
University, a New Yorker atheart, and a certified Reiki
(02:59):
practitioner who enjoys culturaloutings and promoting holistic
leadership practices.
Dannie, welcome to the show,great to have you here,
Dannie (03:08):
Greg.
Thanks for having me here, andI'm happy that we're able to get
together.
Greg (03:13):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So we were together face to facein Thailand about three months
ago.
Was it three months ago?
I believe
Dannie (03:21):
it.
Two and a half months ago.
Yeah, it's almost three months,but yeah.
Greg (03:25):
Yeah.
As part of the CQ Fellowsprogram.
And I was just thinking withyour.
Your interest in culturaloutings, that must have been
just right up your alley, asidefrom the CQ Fellows thing.
Dannie (03:38):
I absolutely loved it.
It was an immersive experience,which I am a fan of doing so we
could have a betterunderstanding of what makes us
who we are, that secret sauce,if that makes any sense, Greg.
Greg (03:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
And speaking of things, saucy,what?
When we did the, when we didthe, what was it?
The amazing race thing.
Yes.
What was the food that yourgroup chose or found?
Can you remember?
Dannie (04:12):
Oh, it was like a chip.
We had a bag of it, thedifferent like chips.
I can't remember what it wasmade of, but it was good.
I liked it.
Greg (04:21):
And we had ice cream tea or tea ice cream, like soft
serve ice cream with tea flavorand these little I don't know.
Balls of flavorsome whatever.
Dannie (04:32):
We didn't have that.
We had, we got the bags of chipsthat we actually bought to the
rest of the group as you
Greg (04:38):
Oh, I remember them.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
Hey, I wanna ask you to walkdown memory lane a little bit.
And just talk about some of thedefining moments that shaped
your interest in org psych andalso in cultural intelligence.
How did that all happen?
Dannie (04:58):
It wasn't planned.
That's number one.
I think my work journey, whichhas been amassed of over 20
years work in the capacity as aproject manager or working in
client services or even justworking in the tech and
(05:20):
marketing industry, I had towork with different people,
different teams that were notjust within the United States,
but global as well.
Having that exposure reallyplayed its part in motivating me
and trying to understand how weengage with each other because
(05:41):
communication is so differentfrom a cultural based on
whatever your culturalbackground is.
Another thing that played itspart even further for me in
looking at, in particular,cultural intelligence, not only
in the workspace, but just inthe, in our day-to-day, right?
In our day-to-day interactionand function.
I would have to say with whathappened in 2020 with COVID-19 a
(06:08):
pandemic in the United States,we had the crisis of the Black
Lives Matter movement.
And what had me thinking aboutstuff from a cultural and
diversity perspective was seeingGreg, the different diversity
statements that were coming outfrom companies all over the
(06:30):
world.
In stating, their diversitystatement.
And I read just about everyonethat I came across and what had
me thinking was.
Does this organization reallybelieve what they're saying
here?
And as such, do the people thatwork for them stand by this
(06:56):
statement that's being given?
And I had these thoughts andquestions, Greg, even before I
had started my doctoral programin the fall of that year.
And what ended up happening forme is as I went along on my
doctoral journey, I stumbledacross cultural intelligence.
(07:21):
There was a term, there was aterm for what I was thinking
about.
I was, not just thinking aboutjust diversity, equity, and
inclusion, but going furtherinto the weeds to get a better
understanding as to how we getthis existence of DEI.
'Cause that's just my personal,thought and opinion on the
(07:42):
matter that I feel that DEI is akind of to me, a byproduct of
cultural intelligence.
People may disagree with me onit.
But, this is my opinion of whatI see.
Of, of what it's a component ofwhat cultural intelligence is.
(08:05):
So that's how I got into it.
I became so entrenched in it,and especially in studying
organization and leadership,psychology, culture.
It's it's right there.
It plays its part.
And I think Greg, you and I areon the same wavelength in what
(08:27):
we are seeing on a global scalewith our leaders.
The infusion of culture.
Greg is playing its role and itspart right now.
In how countries arefunctioning, not just
organizations.
Countries.
(08:47):
Yeah, so here I am.
Yeah.
To be a voice, to be a part ofthat, that, that atmosphere.
Greg (08:54):
Yeah.
Great.
Yeah, absolutely.
And we, I guess what's happeningin the US with all the DEI stuff
and it's not just a US issue.
No, the same thing is happeninghere.
Yeah.
And so it's not just aboutorganizations, it's about
governments and it's aboutcountries and and yeah, we're,
we are seeing exactly the samething yeah.
(09:16):
Right here in little old NewZealand, thousands of miles away
from where you are.
Dannie (09:20):
No I'm fully well aware of what's going on within New
Zealand as of late, even withwhat transpired in November.
It was November October with theMāori demographic.
The politicians that representthat group.
And now this whole edict comingdown for three members of
Parliament be suspended fordoing a haka, so this is very
(09:45):
interesting to me.
It's,
Greg (09:47):
yeah.
It's number one news item aroundhere at the moment.
Dannie (09:49):
I believe it because I saw it.
Yeah, last week.
I think it's very ironic thatyou and I are having this
conversation right now because Iread that, I saw the video yeah.
Of, of your fellow parliamentmember yeah.
Issuing this whole edict aboutsuspending these three members
of Parliament and I looked atthat and then I see what's going
(10:12):
on here in the United States.
And I was like, huh.
This narrative is verytransferrable and it's bit
alarming, but at the same time,it's a good thing that it's
happening for us to continuethis aspect of learning from
each other, be it.
Be it gritty and very difficultright now.
(10:36):
This needs to happen in a sense,for us to have a better
understanding as to who we areas people.
Greg (10:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And so let's just expand alittle bit on your CQ journey.
And you are delving into thedark side of CQ.
Apparently, from what Iunderstand, that's what you're
doing.
Dannie (10:59):
You are spot on.
Greg (11:02):
And so what does that look like in the real world and are
there really people orsituations where CQ might
actually be used to manipulateor mask people's intents?
Dannie (11:19):
Yes.
And I know I'm very abrupt in myresponse in saying yes, but in
just looking at what istranspiring here in the United
States.
Okay.
Ironically enough, there was anews coverage about our current
administration and how thecurrent administration leaned
(11:42):
into what was going on in theculture of the United States in
order to win this most recentelection.
I found that statement to bevery profound because it
actually did it did align withmy thinking of the whole aspect
of a correlation and connectionbetween cultural intelligence
and dark leadership.
(12:04):
My interest has further peakedwith what is going on currently
in my country as it pertains tothe checks and balances of our
branches of government.
So people always think withcultural intelligence that it
could, that it's only used forgood.
But as I've seen certain eventsthat have been occurring here, I
(12:27):
started to wonder, can you usecultural intelligence for not?
And the answer is yes.
It calls for appropriatemanipulation, leaning in on
certain demographic ordemographic of individuals
interests.
Yeah.
Overshadowing overall collectiveinterest, right?
(12:51):
'cause, we always talk about andcultural intelligence of being
mindful of collectivism andindividualism and having an
overall awareness of that,right?
And what has happened here, whatI see starting to happen here is
more of a, a disconnect ofreally looking at specific
(13:12):
group's interests and not anoverall interest of the whole.
So I have started in essence,besides already doing some other
research, as you are aware withcultural intelligence.
But I've started to look at thatmore in regards to dark
leadership.
Dark leadership has actuallybeen around for years.
(13:35):
I as wrote briefly about it in ablog.
This is for me, it's a braindump in talking about the
existence of dark leadership.
That there are this notion ofdark leaders in the corporate
world.
But there are also darkleadership in government.
But.
(13:56):
It was never properly identifiedas dark leadership.
Now peppering in the influenceof cultural intelligence, it has
evolved into something moreintricate, very sophisticated in
nature, where you don't evennotice that this is being done.
(14:19):
You you probably have seen rightthat people are so entrenched in
their thinking of certainpolitical ideologies, they can't
see other ideologies.
Like just taking those thingsinto consideration.
(14:40):
It's absolutely fascinating andalso a bit scary at the same
time.
And it also has me wondering,'cause here we go, as a social
scientist or whatever, right?
It has me thinking about like,how do we come back to center?
(15:01):
Yeah.
Is it possible?
To come back to center.
Greg (15:06):
So just sticking to your blog, not that particular one,
but I guess one of the reasonsthat made me think, I need to
talk to Dannie, was the blogthat you wrote a couple of
months ago?
And it was entitled, who Is TheTherapist?
For The OrganizationalTherapist?
(15:27):
Yeah.
And I guess it resonated when Ithink about my industry, which
is health and safetyprofessionals who are often
described as the caregiverswithin organizations.
And the discussion has beenaround forever, about who's
looking after them.
(15:48):
We are busy looking aftereverybody else.
Yes.
Who's looking after us.
And what have you thought about,what have you read about, what
have you written about in termsof how organizations can ensure
that those supportive carerroles receive the care and
support to sustain their ownwellbeing rather than them
(16:08):
spending all of their time?
Not rather than, but as well aslooking after everybody else in
the business.
Dannie (16:16):
There, that is the burning question because you've
probably seen in all of thethings that we have read thus
far currently, this fight forempathy, this fight for
compassion, be it as a leader,as a worker, as a human being in
general.
(16:38):
It's not easy and there aren't,even though there have been
certain vehicles in place toaddress it, what's happening,
especially in the workspace asof late, is this push for
obviously everybody to come backto the workspace.
Full-time.
Yep.
No more remote.
Yep.
You know, there is heavycriticism about remote work, not
(17:00):
pro, not properly producing.
Okay.
I have a 50 50 opinion on that.
But there are also high demandsin the workspace as well.
And I don't see the appropriateancillary resources that can be
provided for, to employees, toleaders, to everybody in that
(17:24):
space to, to properly function.
The main goal has been aboutjust producing and making a
profit.
And what's happening isorganizations are forgetting the
whole idea is that the wholeidea that the person, there is a
(17:45):
person, a human being, there's ahumanistic element involved
here.
Greg, as in the health andsafety and you know that, that
world you all are burnt out.
Greg (17:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that, that discussion isnot a new one either.
It's, it's been around for alittle while
Dannie (18:05):
as well, but it's conversations in circles, but
there's no like level of probeing proactive in like, how do
we properly address this?
Please note, having someone comein to give massages to your
employees is not just a perk.
It's actually a means of wealth,of self care and even, and
wellness or doing a yoga sessionisn't a bad thing because it
(18:28):
provides an outlet formindfulness.
Having moments to do mindfulnessactivities throughout the
workday is not a bad thing.
Or at least to do it once a weekis not a bad thing because it
provides the opportunity for thebrain to regenerate itself.
And to be able to develop newideas to do work, and that is
(18:51):
what people are forgetting.
Greg (18:55):
Yeah.
I think you talked in that inthat blog you used term
compassion fatigue.
And you've mentioned a couple ofthings there.
Is there anything thatorganizations should be doing to
try and address this compassionfatigue or the burnout for the
carers in the organization.
Is there any, anything specific?
Dannie (19:16):
What I mean by that is bringing in the appropriate
practitioners that can see aboutmental health wellbeing.
There is a stigma that is put onthose seeking or providing
aspects of mental health grief.
What I mean by compassionfatigue is obviously you are
(19:38):
giving your all as thetherapist, as the health and
wellbeing, practitioner, you'regiving your all, you're giving,
your all you're giving, yourall, you're giving your all to
the point.
The cup is empty.
Who is there to fill the cup foryou because you're a human being
as well.
Yeah.
So there needs to be thiserasure of stigma, of thinking,
(20:00):
to have a therapist on, call oron board specifically to see
about not an HR person, I'mtalking about specific
professionals to do theappropriate therapeutic services
for your employees is not a badthing.
And there are ways you could setthat up.
So you don't go against anyregulations, security,
(20:23):
confidential regulations for theemployee, what have you, that
can be done and not having thisancillary resource be one that's
done for a certain amount oftime.
There has to be a way that youcan be able to implement it on
an ongoing recurring basis ifneeded.
By that worker.
(20:44):
Yeah.
Greg (20:45):
Yeah.
And I think the whole wellbeingthing, in some ways it takes an
organization to.
Understand who its demographicis.
Because as you say, if you, it'sall very well to get a masseuse
to come in and do that stuff, orin the past, certainly here,
(21:05):
we've dished out corporate gymmemberships.
That's cool, but it's only gonnabe used by the people that like
going to the gym.
Pretty much so you need tounderstand what presses the
buttons of the people that workfor you.
Because if you just give them acorporate gym membership, half
(21:25):
of them are still just gonna sitbehind their desk all day eating
chocolate and doing no exercise.
Dannie (21:32):
You got it.
And this is where Gregorganizations should really
value the implementation ofdoing cultural intelligence
assessments to really get anunderstanding of what really is
their organization's culture.
Because a lot of organizationsdon't do that they just, they
(21:55):
have a mission, they got theirvalues, they got their strategic
goals for whatever time period.
But when it comes down torevisiting what the overall
organization's culture is,that's not happening.
And that needs to happen moreand more I feel on a frequent
basis.
(22:16):
Not once in a while when thingsare very fractured in your
overall structure as anorganization, right?
Yeah.
It doesn't take much to, atleast for an organization to
impose some type of time in theworkday where people have to
just shut down, go for a walk,walk away from your computer.
Greg (22:42):
We talk about it from a physical safety perspective,
right?
And yeah.
And I remember years ago, I.
When I first started out, we'dhave all these people sitting
behind computers doing work.
I'm not talking about the, thereal work, the digging the holes
and the stuff that can reallykill you, but physically, yeah.
Yeah.
The computer based work.
And there used to be a program,and I think it's still available
(23:04):
on Microsoft, where a littlepaperclip would come up on your
screen and say, time for abreak.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know that really happensanymore for those people.
No, it doesn't.
Data entry a hundred percent ofthe time.
Yeah, they probably get amorning tea and a lunch and
whatever.
But in between times they,they're going hard out for a
(23:25):
couple of hours.
Without that break.
Dannie (23:28):
And I'm even calling for like even a break for those that
have physicality, a lot of highphysicality in their work as
well.
It, it's needed across theboard, but whether you sit
behind a desk or whether you'removing and grooving, for those
eight hours, you need a momentto pause.
And again, that element ofmindfulness really helps in
(23:51):
helping brain functionality.
Greg (23:55):
Let's let's divert back to cultural intelligence a little
bit.
Absolutely.
Let's go and exploreorganizations in your experience
that are having a crack at doingsome stuff around diversity or
cross-cultural competency orwhatever term we want to give it
(24:15):
when you see them getting itwrong in terms of, burnout for
people that are maybe culturallyfluent or culturally intelligent
where are organizations gettingit wrong in terms of their care
of those sorts of people?
Dannie (24:34):
Where they're getting it wrong is what I called out from
previously in regards to a lackof doing an appropriate CQ
assessment.
A lack of doing an appropriateCQ assessment of even of their
leaders, their senior leadershipoverall, those that are in
executive positions, to reallyunderstand their leadership
style and pattern and how thatphase out to those that they are
(24:57):
managing.
So if I don't have an idea ofyour level of high CQ
competency, you may have low CQcompetency, you may have low CQ
drive, you may have low CQstrategy, some of those four
capabilities that we talk about,Greg.
Or for the four square, model.
Of, of cultural intelligence.
(25:19):
If I don't have an understandingof what you bring to the table
as a leader, there is the highlikelihood of my organization
not being fully successful.
Greg (25:33):
I see.
And I had an an experience lastyear, I think it was with an
organization who were activelyrecruiting migrant workers.
And the leadership would go tothe country where the migrants
were based and they'd put themthrough interviews and really
try and educate them about NewZealand culture and do all of
(25:56):
that sort of stuff.
So it seemed like they wanted todo the right thing and the and
these migrant workers came over.
And where it all fell down wasthat, albeit that the
organization might have a highcultural intelligence culture.
The middle management who wereresponsible for leading those
(26:16):
people and managing those peopleand being responsible for them,
didn't have that same culture.
'Cause there was a lot ofbullying going on because of
they couldn't understand theirlanguage or the migrant wasn't
very good at English.
They had a different riskappetite, a different work ethic
and so there was aggression, notviolence, but aggression,
(26:40):
bullying, harassment that wasgoing on at middle management
level.
Is that, do you think that'ssomething that's maybe normal in
most organizations?
Dannie (26:48):
Unfortunately, it is because a lot of the resources
and information and education,usually majority of the time,
Greg stops at senior leadership,there is initially a promise
from senior leadership that,that they will disseminate what
(27:09):
they've learned to middlemanagement.
But that a good high amount ofmajority of the time, that
doesn't happen.
Yeah.
So what ends up happening is thesenior leader can have all of
the appropriate tools that needto be utilized and it's not
(27:30):
being properly trained to middlemanagers.
So that's why like even whenI've gone in to do trainings I
not only do trainings withsenior leadership, but I
literally will push for alsodoing trainings for middle
managers as well.
So the message is clear, andmiddle managers also see that
(27:52):
senior leadership is trulyinvested in ensuring that an
aspect of cultural awareness andcultural intelligence is in
place for their organization.
So it's not just stopping atsenior leadership.
Greg, you've probablyexperienced, you were probably,
(28:13):
you probably called in to do atraining and you're probably
doing the training more so withsenior leadership.
And they'll immediately say, oh,we're gonna, we're getting these
tools, this is great.
And then we're gonna share itwith our middle managers
manager.
I think we as even consultantsor, development professionals,
what we could do, which is anextra mile in essence, is to
(28:34):
follow up and do some form ofinquiry with that former client
as to where they are right now.
And was that information sharedwith your middle managers?
This is a common problem thatends up happening all the time.
Greg (28:52):
So putting your psychologist hat on.
And a little bit of your c, alittle bit of your CQ hat on as
well.
Absolutely.
What would you say the mostoverlooked critical capability
for leaders working acrosscultures is in your experience?
Dannie (29:11):
Oh man.
I think it's actually not, notfully leaning in on the CQ
knowledge the cognitive stuff.
Why I say CQ knowledge isbecause, it's a cognitive
aspect.
It all works with here yourhead.
(29:34):
And you can do some work inregards to like within CQ
strategy, Greg, within CQaction.
Of, carrying forward certainthings.
But that doesn't mean that youcan believe it.
If you get what I'm saying.
Because this is where you canforay into what.
(29:55):
What we re what we just talkedabout, which is an, that can
play an element into darkleadership.
You you manipulate.
Okay.
So with me calling out to thecognitive side is really having
a full skill awareness of thecultural differences of really
having an understanding and anappreciation and thinking about
(30:19):
the overall like norms andvalues of other people.
Not just yourself.
And that I feel cq knowledge isdifficult.
Greg (30:29):
The reason I said that it was interesting is I don't
necessarily disagree with you,my experience has been though,
when I use the words culturalintelligence leaders typically
go yeah.
I know what that is.
And, but what they think theyknow it is.
Is that cultural knowledgepiece, right?
(30:49):
I know some stuff about Māoriculture, therefore I must be
culturally intelligent.
And so yeah, to a couple ofdifferent, to a couple of
different, approaches to it.
And that
Dannie (31:00):
there are and I'm calling out to that other side
of it where you may know aboutMāori culture.
You don't fully know, you havean awareness of it, but I'm
taking it from a slant of reallyimmersing yourself in the
overall knowledge of it.
Having your brain really befired up to have a full scale
understanding of the values andnorms of the Māori people.
Greg (31:24):
Yeah.
So taking it one step furtherthen.
And so I'm a health and safetyprofessional.
There's however many of us inNew Zealand, few thousand.
What do you think we can do tomeaningfully enhance our
cultural intelligence as safetypeople working in diverse
(31:47):
organizations, which is a factthat there's no getting out of
it.
Every organization in NewZealand is diverse, whether it's
ethnicity or any other aspect ofdiversity.
That's what we look like in NewZealand and most other places in
the world, I suspect.
Dannie (32:05):
Yeah I, New Zealand is a country I, so I so want to visit
someday because I do love theoverall, mosaic of the country.
Okay.
There's so much to learn andacquire immersive, like I said,
knowledge from a health andsafety perspective as to what
(32:27):
can be focused on and what canbe done to become more
culturally aware is fororganizations to have the
appropriate space andopportunity to expose their
staff to the different cultures,not just saying have one like
(32:47):
culture day no, no, I'm talkingabout from time to time
immersing yourself in respectivecultures from a health and
safety perspective, because theway how individuals receive care
from health professionals isvery different based on on their
perception of what a healthcareprofessional stands in their
(33:11):
order of priority and status.
Okay.
So really taking the time to dothose type of like immersive
trips and trainings in what youcan encounter when working with
a patient.
Or a client or, whatever haveyou, on a, in a site or in the
(33:34):
space in how you will bereceived as a health and safety
professional.
It's very different, depending,some people may be afraid of
working with you.
Some people may be, receptive,and welcome, and some people may
feel like you are the sali ofthe of of knowledge and take
(33:56):
everything that you say asgolden, right?
So there are different variablesand what it calls for is
providing the opportunity forhealth and safety professionals
to have a better understandingof that.
And that only that calls for notonly just reading books, Greg,
(34:17):
you gotta get into the space.
And that is something that notonly for what you've probably
encountered, in your workspacein New Zealand, but I can even
say even here in the UnitedStates, it's something that is
deficient and is lacking.
We don't take the time.
Greg (34:38):
Yeah and I guess it's all about all of those cultural
value profiles that we talkabout in the CQ space.
Yes.
Understanding what collectivismand individualism looks like
through a, safety lens or powerdistance or uncertainty
avoidance.
All of those, yeah.
Words that we know all
Dannie (34:54):
the key words.
But it calls for us now to takeit another level and not feel
handicapped because of a companybudget.
You understand what I'm saying?
Like you gotta be able to putsome parameters, vehicles, tools
in place that gives youremployee the opportunity to
(35:17):
really be immersed in, in thespace.
The funny thing about work,workplace.
Work is the only place where youwill go where you'll be around
different people.
I don't think people reallythink about it that way.
(35:37):
A lot of people just think of itas I'm just gonna work.
I'm getting my paycheck, andthat's it.
But in all honesty, Greg, youcan determine what space you are
gonna be in when you leave theworkspace with your family
outside of the workspace.
With you.
You are with your own set offriends that are more than
likely culturally aligned inyour perspective on things.
(36:01):
But it's, when you go to work iswhere you see a different
plethora of people,
Greg (36:08):
which is really interesting from a New Zealand
perspective and again, probablynot too dissimilar from other
parts of the world.
But I was at an event a coupleof nights ago and it was a
presentation on the value ofethnic diversity in governance
with a particular lens onPacifica, so people from the
(36:29):
Pacific Islands and right therewas a chap there who's a
distinguished emeritas professorwho's written 30 books on
diversity in New Zealand.
And one of the things that hepulled out was I guess a graph
showing the demographics of NewZealand workplaces now and in
(36:49):
the future, and so we've got anaging white European population.
Who typically are in leadershiproles, governance roles.
Who typically are male.
And so they're on the sort ofthe retirement Yes.
Sort of verge of retirement.
And then at the bottom of thecurve, you've got all of these
(37:12):
younger Pacific Islanders,Māori, and Asian workers who are
going to future of leadership inNew Zealand.
And CQ is where it's at like nowand into the future because
yeah, we are gonna have to learnto get along and understand and
all of that stuff with a bunchof people who maybe we don't
(37:34):
have that culturalunderstanding, that cultural
competence, that culturalexactly of what makes them tick,
how they make decisions, whythey make decisions, all of
those sorts of things.
Dannie (37:44):
And keep in mind with what you just said, you have
older, predominantly white malesretiring out who have been in
leadership roles.
We don't know whether or notthey were a dark leader, okay.
Of being able to transfer theirthoughts on their own
(38:06):
unconscious biases in theworkspace, right?
And they're leading individualsthat do not look like them.
So what's ending up, what'shappening here is you have these
individuals retiring out and youhave the up and comers who are
multicultural in nature andfolks aren't prepared for that.
(38:31):
They haven't been, given theopportunity to cultivate this
level of differences anddiversity that's burgeoning,
that's on the horizon.
So we are at, in essence, in mypersonal opinion, at a serious
(38:52):
impasse.
It's an, it's a very excitingtime, to me it's exciting to
some folks of these all get out,but to me this is an exciting
time.
Exciting time, and it's abouthow do you navigate in it?
Are you all for it or are younot all for it?
Greg (39:11):
Yeah, we could probably go on forever.
Dannie (39:16):
We sure can.
This is awesome.
Love this.
It's it's I think nearingmidnight where you are.
Greg (39:23):
Yeah.
The sun's still shining here, soI know.
We should stick a pin in itthere and say.
Absolute pleasure to have youon, I know we've only been
connected for a very shortamount of time.
I think we with that experiencein Thailand we've connected on
this topic and along with theother dozen or so people that
(39:46):
were there with us.
Yeah.
And look forward to doing itagain later in the year in the
big ole USA,
Dannie (39:50):
I am excited i'm so excited to see everyone.
I'm excited to see you again,Greg, in person.
I think this has been a greatopportunity in come bringing
together, individuals who arereally committed and passionate
about spreading the message,about the importance of
(40:10):
acknowledging and beingcomfortable with each other's
differences.
It's okay.
Greg (40:18):
Yeah.
Great way to end it.
Thanks so much for your time.
Absolutely.
And we, if we don't see eachother online'cause we're on
different sides of the thecohort, we'll see you in
November.
Yes.
November.
Awesome.
Thanks Dannie.
Dannie (40:37):
You are welcome.
Greg (40:42):
It was great to catch up with Dannie and get immersed in
her wisdom.
We talked about the mosaic ofcultural backgrounds present in
every organization, and the needto build systems that support,
not just demand our bestefforts.
From her reflections on globalproject work to her bold take on
(41:03):
the dark side of culturalintelligence, Dannie brought
deep insight and groundedhonesty to the table.
Whether you're in the boardroomor out on site, this one's
packed with truths worth holdingonto, here are my five key
takeaways.
CQ goes Beyond culture days.
(41:26):
Don't let cultural awareness bea checkbox.
Create real immersiveopportunities for people to
engage with differentworldviews.
Celebrating culture days isgreat, but go beyond that to
help your workers trulyunderstand the why behind
different cultural values andnorms.
(41:47):
Wellbeing requires systems notperks.
Massages and gym passes arenice, but what your people
really need are integratedsupport systems, regular
opportunities to give your braina break through mindfulness
sessions or mental health breaksthat aren't guilt ridden.
(42:11):
A third takeaway middlemanagement is a cultural
bottleneck.
Senior leaders might get it, butculture lives and dies with
middle managers.
Train and empower them with CQtools, not just policy
handbooks.
My fourth takeaway, don'tconfuse knowledge with
(42:32):
competency.
Knowing about a culture isn'tthe same as leading effectively
across difference, competencymeans applying that knowledge
with nuance, respect, andhumility.
And finally, burnout is aleadership issue, not just an HR
(42:54):
one.
When your caregivers or yourhealth and safety professionals
are exhausted, your system isfailing.
Make wellbeing for health andsafety professionals a strategic
priority, not just a wellnessweek initiative.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
(43:15):
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
(43:38):
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa..
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this episode we head to NewYork, that's right, the big
Apple and chat with Dr.
Danielle Antoinette Henry orDannie to her friends.
And I think I fit into thatcategory and qualified
Dannie (01:27):
category.
Yes, you do.
Greg (01:29):
Dannie is an accomplished management consultant and
organizational leader,specializing in empathetic
leadership, project managementand cultural intelligence.
She's the founder of and CEO ofGreat Dane 921 Consulting, where
she advises organizations onbuilding more compassionate,
transparent workplace cultures.
(01:51):
Her consulting expertiseincludes leading catalysts
#biascorrect social mediacampaign for International
Women's Day in 2022, whichfocused on redefining leadership
through empathy.
Dannie recently served as adirector of project management
at Tier One Solutions Groupoverseeing strategic marketing
initiatives, organizationaltransformation, and
(02:14):
cross-functional projectdelivery.
She brings a unique blend ofleadership, psychology,
strategic planning, and culturalinsight to every engagement.
Dannie earned her doctorate inleadership psychology with a
concentration in neuroscience ofleadership from William James
College.
She holds a MPA in public andnonprofit management from NYU
(02:36):
Wagner and a BA in AmericanPolitics from the NYU College of
Arts and Science.
Her credentials include, getthis a certified Scrum master, a
registered parliamentarian, aFINRA arbitrator, and a
certificate in projectleadership from Cornell
University, a New Yorker atheart, and a certified Reiki
(02:59):
practitioner who enjoys culturaloutings and promoting holistic
leadership practices.
Dannie, welcome to the show,great to have you here,
Dannie (03:08):
Greg.
Thanks for having me here, andI'm happy that we're able to get
together.
Greg (03:13):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So we were together face to facein Thailand about three months
ago.
Was it three months ago?
I believe
Dannie (03:21):
it.
Two and a half months ago.
Yeah, it's almost three months,but yeah.
Greg (03:25):
Yeah.
As part of the CQ Fellowsprogram.
And I was just thinking withyour.
Your interest in culturaloutings, that must have been
just right up your alley, asidefrom the CQ Fellows thing.
Dannie (03:38):
I absolutely loved it.
It was an immersive experience,which I am a fan of doing so we
could have a betterunderstanding of what makes us
who we are, that secret sauce,if that makes any sense, Greg.
Greg (03:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
And speaking of things, saucy,what?
When we did the, when we didthe, what was it?
The amazing race thing.
Yes.
What was the food that yourgroup chose or found?
Can you remember?
Dannie (04:12):
Oh, it was like a chip.
We had a bag of it, thedifferent like chips.
I can't remember what it wasmade of, but it was good.
I liked it.
Greg (04:21):
And we had ice cream tea or tea ice cream, like soft
serve ice cream with tea flavorand these little I don't know.
Balls of flavorsome whatever.
Dannie (04:32):
We didn't have that.
We had, we got the bags of chipsthat we actually bought to the
rest of the group as you
Greg (04:38):
Oh, I remember them.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
Hey, I wanna ask you to walkdown memory lane a little bit.
And just talk about some of thedefining moments that shaped
your interest in org psych andalso in cultural intelligence.
How did that all happen?
Dannie (04:58):
It wasn't planned.
That's number one.
I think my work journey, whichhas been amassed of over 20
years work in the capacity as aproject manager or working in
client services or even justworking in the tech and
(05:20):
marketing industry, I had towork with different people,
different teams that were notjust within the United States,
but global as well.
Having that exposure reallyplayed its part in motivating me
and trying to understand how weengage with each other because
(05:41):
communication is so differentfrom a cultural based on
whatever your culturalbackground is.
Another thing that played itspart even further for me in
looking at, in particular,cultural intelligence, not only
in the workspace, but just inthe, in our day-to-day, right?
In our day-to-day interactionand function.
I would have to say with whathappened in 2020 with COVID-19 a
(06:08):
pandemic in the United States,we had the crisis of the Black
Lives Matter movement.
And what had me thinking aboutstuff from a cultural and
diversity perspective was seeingGreg, the different diversity
statements that were coming outfrom companies all over the
(06:30):
world.
In stating, their diversitystatement.
And I read just about everyonethat I came across and what had
me thinking was.
Does this organization reallybelieve what they're saying
here?
And as such, do the people thatwork for them stand by this
(06:56):
statement that's being given?
And I had these thoughts andquestions, Greg, even before I
had started my doctoral programin the fall of that year.
And what ended up happening forme is as I went along on my
doctoral journey, I stumbledacross cultural intelligence.
(07:21):
There was a term, there was aterm for what I was thinking
about.
I was, not just thinking aboutjust diversity, equity, and
inclusion, but going furtherinto the weeds to get a better
understanding as to how we getthis existence of DEI.
'Cause that's just my personal,thought and opinion on the
(07:42):
matter that I feel that DEI is akind of to me, a byproduct of
cultural intelligence.
People may disagree with me onit.
But, this is my opinion of whatI see.
Of, of what it's a component ofwhat cultural intelligence is.
(08:05):
So that's how I got into it.
I became so entrenched in it,and especially in studying
organization and leadership,psychology, culture.
It's it's right there.
It plays its part.
And I think Greg, you and I areon the same wavelength in what
(08:27):
we are seeing on a global scalewith our leaders.
The infusion of culture.
Greg is playing its role and itspart right now.
In how countries arefunctioning, not just
organizations.
Countries.
(08:47):
Yeah, so here I am.
Yeah.
To be a voice, to be a part ofthat, that, that atmosphere.
Greg (08:54):
Yeah.
Great.
Yeah, absolutely.
And we, I guess what's happeningin the US with all the DEI stuff
and it's not just a US issue.
No, the same thing is happeninghere.
Yeah.
And so it's not just aboutorganizations, it's about
governments and it's aboutcountries and and yeah, we're,
we are seeing exactly the samething yeah.
(09:16):
Right here in little old NewZealand, thousands of miles away
from where you are.
Dannie (09:20):
No I'm fully well aware of what's going on within New
Zealand as of late, even withwhat transpired in November.
It was November October with theMāori demographic.
The politicians that representthat group.
And now this whole edict comingdown for three members of
Parliament be suspended fordoing a haka, so this is very
(09:45):
interesting to me.
It's,
Greg (09:47):
yeah.
It's number one news item aroundhere at the moment.
Dannie (09:49):
I believe it because I saw it.
Yeah, last week.
I think it's very ironic thatyou and I are having this
conversation right now because Iread that, I saw the video yeah.
Of, of your fellow parliamentmember yeah.
Issuing this whole edict aboutsuspending these three members
of Parliament and I looked atthat and then I see what's going
(10:12):
on here in the United States.
And I was like, huh.
This narrative is verytransferrable and it's bit
alarming, but at the same time,it's a good thing that it's
happening for us to continuethis aspect of learning from
each other, be it.
Be it gritty and very difficultright now.
(10:36):
This needs to happen in a sense,for us to have a better
understanding as to who we areas people.
Greg (10:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And so let's just expand alittle bit on your CQ journey.
And you are delving into thedark side of CQ.
Apparently, from what Iunderstand, that's what you're
doing.
Dannie (10:59):
You are spot on.
Greg (11:02):
And so what does that look like in the real world and are
there really people orsituations where CQ might
actually be used to manipulateor mask people's intents?
Dannie (11:19):
Yes.
And I know I'm very abrupt in myresponse in saying yes, but in
just looking at what istranspiring here in the United
States.
Okay.
Ironically enough, there was anews coverage about our current
administration and how thecurrent administration leaned
(11:42):
into what was going on in theculture of the United States in
order to win this most recentelection.
I found that statement to bevery profound because it
actually did it did align withmy thinking of the whole aspect
of a correlation and connectionbetween cultural intelligence
and dark leadership.
(12:04):
My interest has further peakedwith what is going on currently
in my country as it pertains tothe checks and balances of our
branches of government.
So people always think withcultural intelligence that it
could, that it's only used forgood.
But as I've seen certain eventsthat have been occurring here, I
(12:27):
started to wonder, can you usecultural intelligence for not?
And the answer is yes.
It calls for appropriatemanipulation, leaning in on
certain demographic ordemographic of individuals
interests.
Yeah.
Overshadowing overall collectiveinterest, right?
(12:51):
'cause, we always talk about andcultural intelligence of being
mindful of collectivism andindividualism and having an
overall awareness of that,right?
And what has happened here, whatI see starting to happen here is
more of a, a disconnect ofreally looking at specific
(13:12):
group's interests and not anoverall interest of the whole.
So I have started in essence,besides already doing some other
research, as you are aware withcultural intelligence.
But I've started to look at thatmore in regards to dark
leadership.
Dark leadership has actuallybeen around for years.
(13:35):
I as wrote briefly about it in ablog.
This is for me, it's a braindump in talking about the
existence of dark leadership.
That there are this notion ofdark leaders in the corporate
world.
But there are also darkleadership in government.
But.
(13:56):
It was never properly identifiedas dark leadership.
Now peppering in the influenceof cultural intelligence, it has
evolved into something moreintricate, very sophisticated in
nature, where you don't evennotice that this is being done.
(14:19):
You you probably have seen rightthat people are so entrenched in
their thinking of certainpolitical ideologies, they can't
see other ideologies.
Like just taking those thingsinto consideration.
(14:40):
It's absolutely fascinating andalso a bit scary at the same
time.
And it also has me wondering,'cause here we go, as a social
scientist or whatever, right?
It has me thinking about like,how do we come back to center?
(15:01):
Yeah.
Is it possible?
To come back to center.
Greg (15:06):
So just sticking to your blog, not that particular one,
but I guess one of the reasonsthat made me think, I need to
talk to Dannie, was the blogthat you wrote a couple of
months ago?
And it was entitled, who Is TheTherapist?
For The OrganizationalTherapist?
(15:27):
Yeah.
And I guess it resonated when Ithink about my industry, which
is health and safetyprofessionals who are often
described as the caregiverswithin organizations.
And the discussion has beenaround forever, about who's
looking after them.
(15:48):
We are busy looking aftereverybody else.
Yes.
Who's looking after us.
And what have you thought about,what have you read about, what
have you written about in termsof how organizations can ensure
that those supportive carerroles receive the care and
support to sustain their ownwellbeing rather than them
(16:08):
spending all of their time?
Not rather than, but as well aslooking after everybody else in
the business.
Dannie (16:16):
There, that is the burning question because you've
probably seen in all of thethings that we have read thus
far currently, this fight forempathy, this fight for
compassion, be it as a leader,as a worker, as a human being in
general.
(16:38):
It's not easy and there aren't,even though there have been
certain vehicles in place toaddress it, what's happening,
especially in the workspace asof late, is this push for
obviously everybody to come backto the workspace.
Full-time.
Yep.
No more remote.
Yep.
You know, there is heavycriticism about remote work, not
(17:00):
pro, not properly producing.
Okay.
I have a 50 50 opinion on that.
But there are also high demandsin the workspace as well.
And I don't see the appropriateancillary resources that can be
provided for, to employees, toleaders, to everybody in that
(17:24):
space to, to properly function.
The main goal has been aboutjust producing and making a
profit.
And what's happening isorganizations are forgetting the
whole idea is that the wholeidea that the person, there is a
(17:45):
person, a human being, there's ahumanistic element involved
here.
Greg, as in the health andsafety and you know that, that
world you all are burnt out.
Greg (17:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that, that discussion isnot a new one either.
It's, it's been around for alittle while
Dannie (18:05):
as well, but it's conversations in circles, but
there's no like level of probeing proactive in like, how do
we properly address this?
Please note, having someone comein to give massages to your
employees is not just a perk.
It's actually a means of wealth,of self care and even, and
wellness or doing a yoga sessionisn't a bad thing because it
(18:28):
provides an outlet formindfulness.
Having moments to do mindfulnessactivities throughout the
workday is not a bad thing.
Or at least to do it once a weekis not a bad thing because it
provides the opportunity for thebrain to regenerate itself.
And to be able to develop newideas to do work, and that is
(18:51):
what people are forgetting.
Greg (18:55):
Yeah.
I think you talked in that inthat blog you used term
compassion fatigue.
And you've mentioned a couple ofthings there.
Is there anything thatorganizations should be doing to
try and address this compassionfatigue or the burnout for the
carers in the organization.
Is there any, anything specific?
Dannie (19:16):
What I mean by that is bringing in the appropriate
practitioners that can see aboutmental health wellbeing.
There is a stigma that is put onthose seeking or providing
aspects of mental health grief.
What I mean by compassionfatigue is obviously you are
(19:38):
giving your all as thetherapist, as the health and
wellbeing, practitioner, you'regiving your all, you're giving,
your all you're giving, yourall, you're giving your all to
the point.
The cup is empty.
Who is there to fill the cup foryou because you're a human being
as well.
Yeah.
So there needs to be thiserasure of stigma, of thinking,
(20:00):
to have a therapist on, call oron board specifically to see
about not an HR person, I'mtalking about specific
professionals to do theappropriate therapeutic services
for your employees is not a badthing.
And there are ways you could setthat up.
So you don't go against anyregulations, security,
(20:23):
confidential regulations for theemployee, what have you, that
can be done and not having thisancillary resource be one that's
done for a certain amount oftime.
There has to be a way that youcan be able to implement it on
an ongoing recurring basis ifneeded.
By that worker.
(20:44):
Yeah.
Greg (20:45):
Yeah.
And I think the whole wellbeingthing, in some ways it takes an
organization to.
Understand who its demographicis.
Because as you say, if you, it'sall very well to get a masseuse
to come in and do that stuff, orin the past, certainly here,
(21:05):
we've dished out corporate gymmemberships.
That's cool, but it's only gonnabe used by the people that like
going to the gym.
Pretty much so you need tounderstand what presses the
buttons of the people that workfor you.
Because if you just give them acorporate gym membership, half
(21:25):
of them are still just gonna sitbehind their desk all day eating
chocolate and doing no exercise.
Dannie (21:32):
You got it.
And this is where Gregorganizations should really
value the implementation ofdoing cultural intelligence
assessments to really get anunderstanding of what really is
their organization's culture.
Because a lot of organizationsdon't do that they just, they
(21:55):
have a mission, they got theirvalues, they got their strategic
goals for whatever time period.
But when it comes down torevisiting what the overall
organization's culture is,that's not happening.
And that needs to happen moreand more I feel on a frequent
basis.
(22:16):
Not once in a while when thingsare very fractured in your
overall structure as anorganization, right?
Yeah.
It doesn't take much to, atleast for an organization to
impose some type of time in theworkday where people have to
just shut down, go for a walk,walk away from your computer.
Greg (22:42):
We talk about it from a physical safety perspective,
right?
And yeah.
And I remember years ago, I.
When I first started out, we'dhave all these people sitting
behind computers doing work.
I'm not talking about the, thereal work, the digging the holes
and the stuff that can reallykill you, but physically, yeah.
Yeah.
The computer based work.
And there used to be a program,and I think it's still available
(23:04):
on Microsoft, where a littlepaperclip would come up on your
screen and say, time for abreak.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know that really happensanymore for those people.
No, it doesn't.
Data entry a hundred percent ofthe time.
Yeah, they probably get amorning tea and a lunch and
whatever.
But in between times they,they're going hard out for a
(23:25):
couple of hours.
Without that break.
Dannie (23:28):
And I'm even calling for like even a break for those that
have physicality, a lot of highphysicality in their work as
well.
It, it's needed across theboard, but whether you sit
behind a desk or whether you'removing and grooving, for those
eight hours, you need a momentto pause.
And again, that element ofmindfulness really helps in
(23:51):
helping brain functionality.
Greg (23:55):
Let's let's divert back to cultural intelligence a little
bit.
Absolutely.
Let's go and exploreorganizations in your experience
that are having a crack at doingsome stuff around diversity or
cross-cultural competency orwhatever term we want to give it
(24:15):
when you see them getting itwrong in terms of, burnout for
people that are maybe culturallyfluent or culturally intelligent
where are organizations gettingit wrong in terms of their care
of those sorts of people?
Dannie (24:34):
Where they're getting it wrong is what I called out from
previously in regards to a lackof doing an appropriate CQ
assessment.
A lack of doing an appropriateCQ assessment of even of their
leaders, their senior leadershipoverall, those that are in
executive positions, to reallyunderstand their leadership
style and pattern and how thatphase out to those that they are
(24:57):
managing.
So if I don't have an idea ofyour level of high CQ
competency, you may have low CQcompetency, you may have low CQ
drive, you may have low CQstrategy, some of those four
capabilities that we talk about,Greg.
Or for the four square, model.
Of, of cultural intelligence.
(25:19):
If I don't have an understandingof what you bring to the table
as a leader, there is the highlikelihood of my organization
not being fully successful.
Greg (25:33):
I see.
And I had an an experience lastyear, I think it was with an
organization who were activelyrecruiting migrant workers.
And the leadership would go tothe country where the migrants
were based and they'd put themthrough interviews and really
try and educate them about NewZealand culture and do all of
(25:56):
that sort of stuff.
So it seemed like they wanted todo the right thing and the and
these migrant workers came over.
And where it all fell down wasthat, albeit that the
organization might have a highcultural intelligence culture.
The middle management who wereresponsible for leading those
(26:16):
people and managing those peopleand being responsible for them,
didn't have that same culture.
'Cause there was a lot ofbullying going on because of
they couldn't understand theirlanguage or the migrant wasn't
very good at English.
They had a different riskappetite, a different work ethic
and so there was aggression, notviolence, but aggression,
(26:40):
bullying, harassment that wasgoing on at middle management
level.
Is that, do you think that'ssomething that's maybe normal in
most organizations?
Dannie (26:48):
Unfortunately, it is because a lot of the resources
and information and education,usually majority of the time,
Greg stops at senior leadership,there is initially a promise
from senior leadership that,that they will disseminate what
(27:09):
they've learned to middlemanagement.
But that a good high amount ofmajority of the time, that
doesn't happen.
Yeah.
So what ends up happening is thesenior leader can have all of
the appropriate tools that needto be utilized and it's not
(27:30):
being properly trained to middlemanagers.
So that's why like even whenI've gone in to do trainings I
not only do trainings withsenior leadership, but I
literally will push for alsodoing trainings for middle
managers as well.
So the message is clear, andmiddle managers also see that
(27:52):
senior leadership is trulyinvested in ensuring that an
aspect of cultural awareness andcultural intelligence is in
place for their organization.
So it's not just stopping atsenior leadership.
Greg, you've probablyexperienced, you were probably,
(28:13):
you probably called in to do atraining and you're probably
doing the training more so withsenior leadership.
And they'll immediately say, oh,we're gonna, we're getting these
tools, this is great.
And then we're gonna share itwith our middle managers
manager.
I think we as even consultantsor, development professionals,
what we could do, which is anextra mile in essence, is to
(28:34):
follow up and do some form ofinquiry with that former client
as to where they are right now.
And was that information sharedwith your middle managers?
This is a common problem thatends up happening all the time.
Greg (28:52):
So putting your psychologist hat on.
And a little bit of your c, alittle bit of your CQ hat on as
well.
Absolutely.
What would you say the mostoverlooked critical capability
for leaders working acrosscultures is in your experience?
Dannie (29:11):
Oh man.
I think it's actually not, notfully leaning in on the CQ
knowledge the cognitive stuff.
Why I say CQ knowledge isbecause, it's a cognitive
aspect.
It all works with here yourhead.
(29:34):
And you can do some work inregards to like within CQ
strategy, Greg, within CQaction.
Of, carrying forward certainthings.
But that doesn't mean that youcan believe it.
If you get what I'm saying.
Because this is where you canforay into what.
(29:55):
What we re what we just talkedabout, which is an, that can
play an element into darkleadership.
You you manipulate.
Okay.
So with me calling out to thecognitive side is really having
a full skill awareness of thecultural differences of really
having an understanding and anappreciation and thinking about
(30:19):
the overall like norms andvalues of other people.
Not just yourself.
And that I feel cq knowledge isdifficult.
Greg (30:29):
The reason I said that it was interesting is I don't
necessarily disagree with you,my experience has been though,
when I use the words culturalintelligence leaders typically
go yeah.
I know what that is.
And, but what they think theyknow it is.
Is that cultural knowledgepiece, right?
(30:49):
I know some stuff about Māoriculture, therefore I must be
culturally intelligent.
And so yeah, to a couple ofdifferent, to a couple of
different, approaches to it.
And that
Dannie (31:00):
there are and I'm calling out to that other side
of it where you may know aboutMāori culture.
You don't fully know, you havean awareness of it, but I'm
taking it from a slant of reallyimmersing yourself in the
overall knowledge of it.
Having your brain really befired up to have a full scale
understanding of the values andnorms of the Māori people.
Greg (31:24):
Yeah.
So taking it one step furtherthen.
And so I'm a health and safetyprofessional.
There's however many of us inNew Zealand, few thousand.
What do you think we can do tomeaningfully enhance our
cultural intelligence as safetypeople working in diverse
(31:47):
organizations, which is a factthat there's no getting out of
it.
Every organization in NewZealand is diverse, whether it's
ethnicity or any other aspect ofdiversity.
That's what we look like in NewZealand and most other places in
the world, I suspect.
Dannie (32:05):
Yeah I, New Zealand is a country I, so I so want to visit
someday because I do love theoverall, mosaic of the country.
Okay.
There's so much to learn andacquire immersive, like I said,
knowledge from a health andsafety perspective as to what
(32:27):
can be focused on and what canbe done to become more
culturally aware is fororganizations to have the
appropriate space andopportunity to expose their
staff to the different cultures,not just saying have one like
(32:47):
culture day no, no, I'm talkingabout from time to time
immersing yourself in respectivecultures from a health and
safety perspective, because theway how individuals receive care
from health professionals isvery different based on on their
perception of what a healthcareprofessional stands in their
(33:11):
order of priority and status.
Okay.
So really taking the time to dothose type of like immersive
trips and trainings in what youcan encounter when working with
a patient.
Or a client or, whatever haveyou, on a, in a site or in the
(33:34):
space in how you will bereceived as a health and safety
professional.
It's very different, depending,some people may be afraid of
working with you.
Some people may be, receptive,and welcome, and some people may
feel like you are the sali ofthe of of knowledge and take
(33:56):
everything that you say asgolden, right?
So there are different variablesand what it calls for is
providing the opportunity forhealth and safety professionals
to have a better understandingof that.
And that only that calls for notonly just reading books, Greg,
(34:17):
you gotta get into the space.
And that is something that notonly for what you've probably
encountered, in your workspacein New Zealand, but I can even
say even here in the UnitedStates, it's something that is
deficient and is lacking.
We don't take the time.
Greg (34:38):
Yeah and I guess it's all about all of those cultural
value profiles that we talkabout in the CQ space.
Yes.
Understanding what collectivismand individualism looks like
through a, safety lens or powerdistance or uncertainty
avoidance.
All of those, yeah.
Words that we know all
Dannie (34:54):
the key words.
But it calls for us now to takeit another level and not feel
handicapped because of a companybudget.
You understand what I'm saying?
Like you gotta be able to putsome parameters, vehicles, tools
in place that gives youremployee the opportunity to
(35:17):
really be immersed in, in thespace.
The funny thing about work,workplace.
Work is the only place where youwill go where you'll be around
different people.
I don't think people reallythink about it that way.
(35:37):
A lot of people just think of itas I'm just gonna work.
I'm getting my paycheck, andthat's it.
But in all honesty, Greg, youcan determine what space you are
gonna be in when you leave theworkspace with your family
outside of the workspace.
With you.
You are with your own set offriends that are more than
likely culturally aligned inyour perspective on things.
(36:01):
But it's, when you go to work iswhere you see a different
plethora of people,
Greg (36:08):
which is really interesting from a New Zealand
perspective and again, probablynot too dissimilar from other
parts of the world.
But I was at an event a coupleof nights ago and it was a
presentation on the value ofethnic diversity in governance
with a particular lens onPacifica, so people from the
(36:29):
Pacific Islands and right therewas a chap there who's a
distinguished emeritas professorwho's written 30 books on
diversity in New Zealand.
And one of the things that hepulled out was I guess a graph
showing the demographics of NewZealand workplaces now and in
(36:49):
the future, and so we've got anaging white European population.
Who typically are in leadershiproles, governance roles.
Who typically are male.
And so they're on the sort ofthe retirement Yes.
Sort of verge of retirement.
And then at the bottom of thecurve, you've got all of these
(37:12):
younger Pacific Islanders,Māori, and Asian workers who are
going to future of leadership inNew Zealand.
And CQ is where it's at like nowand into the future because
yeah, we are gonna have to learnto get along and understand and
all of that stuff with a bunchof people who maybe we don't
(37:34):
have that culturalunderstanding, that cultural
competence, that culturalexactly of what makes them tick,
how they make decisions, whythey make decisions, all of
those sorts of things.
Dannie (37:44):
And keep in mind with what you just said, you have
older, predominantly white malesretiring out who have been in
leadership roles.
We don't know whether or notthey were a dark leader, okay.
Of being able to transfer theirthoughts on their own
(38:06):
unconscious biases in theworkspace, right?
And they're leading individualsthat do not look like them.
So what's ending up, what'shappening here is you have these
individuals retiring out and youhave the up and comers who are
multicultural in nature andfolks aren't prepared for that.
(38:31):
They haven't been, given theopportunity to cultivate this
level of differences anddiversity that's burgeoning,
that's on the horizon.
So we are at, in essence, in mypersonal opinion, at a serious
(38:52):
impasse.
It's an, it's a very excitingtime, to me it's exciting to
some folks of these all get out,but to me this is an exciting
time.
Exciting time, and it's abouthow do you navigate in it?
Are you all for it or are younot all for it?
Greg (39:11):
Yeah, we could probably go on forever.
Dannie (39:16):
We sure can.
This is awesome.
Love this.
It's it's I think nearingmidnight where you are.
Greg (39:23):
Yeah.
The sun's still shining here, soI know.
We should stick a pin in itthere and say.
Absolute pleasure to have youon, I know we've only been
connected for a very shortamount of time.
I think we with that experiencein Thailand we've connected on
this topic and along with theother dozen or so people that
(39:46):
were there with us.
Yeah.
And look forward to doing itagain later in the year in the
big ole USA,
Dannie (39:50):
I am excited i'm so excited to see everyone.
I'm excited to see you again,Greg, in person.
I think this has been a greatopportunity in come bringing
together, individuals who arereally committed and passionate
about spreading the message,about the importance of
(40:10):
acknowledging and beingcomfortable with each other's
differences.
It's okay.
Greg (40:18):
Yeah.
Great way to end it.
Thanks so much for your time.
Absolutely.
And we, if we don't see eachother online'cause we're on
different sides of the thecohort, we'll see you in
November.
Yes.
November.
Awesome.
Thanks Dannie.
Dannie (40:37):
You are welcome.
Greg (40:42):
It was great to catch up with Dannie and get immersed in
her wisdom.
We talked about the mosaic ofcultural backgrounds present in
every organization, and the needto build systems that support,
not just demand our bestefforts.
From her reflections on globalproject work to her bold take on
(41:03):
the dark side of culturalintelligence, Dannie brought
deep insight and groundedhonesty to the table.
Whether you're in the boardroomor out on site, this one's
packed with truths worth holdingonto, here are my five key
takeaways.
CQ goes Beyond culture days.
(41:26):
Don't let cultural awareness bea checkbox.
Create real immersiveopportunities for people to
engage with differentworldviews.
Celebrating culture days isgreat, but go beyond that to
help your workers trulyunderstand the why behind
different cultural values andnorms.
(41:47):
Wellbeing requires systems notperks.
Massages and gym passes arenice, but what your people
really need are integratedsupport systems, regular
opportunities to give your braina break through mindfulness
sessions or mental health breaksthat aren't guilt ridden.
(42:11):
A third takeaway middlemanagement is a cultural
bottleneck.
Senior leaders might get it, butculture lives and dies with
middle managers.
Train and empower them with CQtools, not just policy
handbooks.
My fourth takeaway, don'tconfuse knowledge with
(42:32):
competency.
Knowing about a culture isn'tthe same as leading effectively
across difference, competencymeans applying that knowledge
with nuance, respect, andhumility.
And finally, burnout is aleadership issue, not just an HR
(42:54):
one.
When your caregivers or yourhealth and safety professionals
are exhausted, your system isfailing.
Make wellbeing for health andsafety professionals a strategic
priority, not just a wellnessweek initiative.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
(43:15):
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
(43:38):
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa..
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