June 23, 2025 • 36 mins
What a though provoking conversation with Dr Hend Zaki, we covered a lot of ground from hijab and handshakes to halal food and prayer rooms and how these realities impact Muslims at work every single day. What’s clear is that workplaces can’t just rely on general diversity policies. To ensure people feel seen and supported, organisations need to embed inclusion into their systems, their leadership, and their everyday interactions.
What stood out most to me in this conversation was just how much inclusion depends on curiosity the kind that moves beyond surface-level gestures and into real cultural understanding. Hend’s experiences and research highlight that meaningful inclusion for Muslim professionals doesn’t just happen by accident it requires intention, humility, and structure.
Here are five key lessons and actions for health and safety professionals and workplace leaders looking to build more inclusive environments for Muslim colleagues:
Five Key Lessons + Actions for Inclusive Workplaces
1. Belonging Doesn’t Come from Appearance — It Comes from Acceptance
Action: Build real connection by getting to know your team personally. Inclusion is felt when people are treated as whole individuals, not stereotypes.
2. Visibility of Difference Must Not Lead to Isolation
Action: Educate staff on the diversity within Islam and avoid assumptions. Foster curiosity over judgment — especially around topics like hijab, prayer, and gender dynamics.
3. Support Cultural Needs Through Systems, Not Just Goodwill
Action: Formalize accommodations in onboarding kits and HR policies — e.g., prayer spaces, flexibility during Ramadan, halal food at events. Don't rely on employees having to ask.
4. Respect Goes Beyond Handshakes
Action: Normalize alternative greetings. Teach teams that gestures like placing a hand on the heart are respectful and rooted in religious values — not a sign of disengagement.
5. Psychological Safety Requires Cultural Intelligence
Action: Train leaders to recognize unconscious bias and ingroup/outgroup dynamics. Understand how stereotypes and media narratives may silently shape workplace behavior.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world This episode wecatch up with Dr.
Hend Zaki.
Dr.
Zaki is the founder of Women ofColor in the Public Sector
Network and also Zaki Consultingwhere she helps women connect,
(01:27):
support one another and thrivetogether.
Hend has over 15 years ofexperience in government,
regional and internationalorganizations, and is passionate
about creating inclusive andthriving environments.
Through her consulting companyshe has developed programs to
support women from diverseethnic backgrounds.
(01:48):
She holds a PhD in politics andinternational relations from the
University of Auckland andspecializes in
intersectionality, identity andbelonging.
Her experiences as aninternational student
researcher, employee, andmigrant provide her with a deep
understanding of the challengesfaced by women from diverse
(02:08):
backgrounds, migrants andMuslims in New Zealand and
abroad.
Hend is dedicated to supportingand uplifting women from diverse
ethnic backgrounds.
Originally from Egypt, she movedto New Zealand in 2015 with her
family and has previously livedin the UK and the US.
(02:31):
She speaks Arabic and English,Hend honored to have you on the
show.
Hend (02:37):
Thank you so much, Greg.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Greg (02:40):
So we were just talking before you've just come back
from some time abroad in, Egypt,and you were saying that it's
it's a pretty similartemperature at times to Auckland
and despite my lack of knowledgeof Egypt, it rains a little bit
there.
So you had a great trip.
Hend (02:56):
It was one.
Yeah, we had a great trip.
We were there in April.
So it was good.
It was good weather, really goodweather.
Greg (03:02):
Excellent.
So Hend your career and yourjourney spans multiple
continents and multiplecultures.
With all of that, what personalexperiences first sparked your
curiosity about the intersectionof identity, belonging and the
(03:23):
Muslim experience inmulticultural societies like New
Zealand?
Hend (03:30):
Yeah, great question.
I was actually reflecting onthat a little while ago.
I'm originally from Egypt but Ispent my childhood in the UK and
I did my undergraduate in the USand I came here to New Zealand
to do my PhD with my family.
So I've lived in differentwestern societies as a Muslim.
(03:51):
From my experiences as a child,when I was seven years old, I
moved from Cairo to the UK withmy family'cause my dad was
studying there.
And during that time we spentfive years in the uk.
We moved every single year'causemy dad was getting specific
trainings from differenthospitals.
And every year we would movehouses, we would move cities, we
(04:11):
would move school.
And I didn't understand howsignificant this was until I
became older.
Reflecting on this experiencebecause by the time I was 11, I
went to six or seven differentschools, lived in about six,
seven different homes.
And when I came back to Egypt, Ifelt like I've had this amazing
experience and even though I waswith people who looked like me,
(04:35):
I did not have that sense ofbelonging.
'cause I had this experience andI didn't understand that.
So that's my experience of beingdifferent in the UK and having
that experience, but then goingback home to Egypt and still
feel like you don't have thatsense of belonging.
While I was an undergraduate inthe US, 9/11 happened.
So I arrived there about twoweeks before and that got me, if
(04:57):
you read the research is a lotof Muslims went into a
questioning phase about who theyare, what they believe, and
after that I was like, yes, I'ma Muslim, this is what I
practice and this was mydecision.
And I for me it was.
I started raising awarenessabout Islam and I started
getting more interested into theidentity of Muslims in western
(05:18):
societies.
I did my masters on the identityof Muslims in the US and then I
built on it with my PhD researchon the identity of Muslims in
New Zealand or Australia.
But I was also reflecting how Iactually had a sense of
belonging in the US because fromday one when I was at
university, I started working atthe library and the communities
there, like the librariansbecame my kind of family.
(05:41):
They became my Whanau and theyjust accepted me.
They really were like just, theywere my aunties.
They check on me.
And I've had that sense ofbelonging there because of them,
but I was only able to reflecton that the older I got.
So sometimes you have a sense ofbelonging with people that
sometimes don't look like you,but they do give you that kind
of acceptance.
Greg (06:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess that leads to thatfeeling of inclusion.
And that must have beenextremely challenging, as well
being in the US at that time.
And I think in one of ourprevious conversations, you or
it might have been one of thetraining courses of yours that
I've been on, you talked abouthaving made a decision that you
(06:25):
were going to wear a hijab, andthis was before you went to the
US and you were this young, Ithink, 17-year-old in that
environment when that eventoccurred, which must have been
equally challenging as it wasthe positive stuff that you got
out of those relationships withsome of the people that you
worked with.
(06:46):
So I guess in, in your researchyou talk a little bit about
visibility of Muslimindividuals, particularly the
hijab.
And so what practical steps canpeople in workplaces, in western
countries like New Zealand taketo ensure that visibility of
difference, doesn't translateinto isolation, discrimination
(07:08):
and psychological harm in aworkplace.
Hend (07:11):
Just having an open mind and not making assumptions about
people.
Even Muslims are very diverse.
So just not going into a lot ofpeople like look at Muslim women
and feel like they're oppressedbecause they're wearing the
headscarf and actually the storybehind that could be something
totally different.
Islam does not oppress women.
There's a different, there'svarious reasons why Muslim women
wear the headscarf.
(07:32):
There is a verse in the Koran,and there are different
interpretations, but mostscholars agree that it requires
Muslim women to wear theheadscarf.
So they wear it.
If they wear it because the, forthe most part, they've chosen
that based on theirunderstanding and their beliefs,
and it's part of their identity.
It's not because their husbandshas forced them to do it, or
their male or their fathers haveforced them to do it.
(07:53):
So there's.
Usually it's not that.
So it's just going in with anopen mind and not making
assumptions, and when you askquestions, just asking it
respectfully.
Yeah, because it might be forthe person you're asking this
person this question for thefirst time you're trying to
learn from them, but they'veprobably been asked this
question a hundred of times.
So if there's a way you canmaybe Google search first and
(08:14):
then ask deeper questions, thatwould also be helpful.
Greg (08:19):
Interestingly, I've just come away today from a an
unconscious bias presentationand I think that's what you're
talking to, right?
You're saying rather than Iguess, acting on your
unconscious bias, become curiousas you say, ask those respectful
questions and understand that.
(08:39):
It's simply a differentworldview.
And, that's the worldview thatpeople that follow that religion
or worldview, make thosedecisions.
The majority of which, as yousay, are not forced upon them.
And I think it's just, it's,part of it's probably a lack of
visibility of that outside ofthe Muslim world.
(09:01):
Certainly a long way away fromNew Zealand.
And yeah, I think as, as moreknowledge gets out there and
people do take time to becurious, try to understand
rather than judge.
I think that's an importantpiece.
In your research.
You conducted a number ofinterviews and many of your
(09:22):
respondents talked aboutbalancing their, practices like
prayer or a halal dietary needsin a Western environment.
And again, in a workplace, howcan leaders in a workplace
proactively build inclusiveenvironments to take those types
of things into consideration?
(09:44):
When they've got what is nowprobably a multicultural
workplace no matter where youlook?
Hend (09:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So teams are becoming morediverse and it's the
responsibility of the peopleleader to get to know their
needs of the team they'releading every, so even if it's a
Muslim or non-Muslim, or justunderstanding them and knowing
who they are as people.
Also, it's important tocommunicate that you're willing
to accommodate.
(10:11):
Because sometimes as a Muslim orany other ethnicity, if they
want to be accommodated,sometimes they might find it
hard to ask for thisaccommodation.
So it's good to maybe if it'sjust to first of all understand
the needs of your team and alsoto put it in writing somewhere
maybe an onboarding toolkitwhere you say that you can
accommodate and you can provideexamples of what the
accommodation looks like.
(10:33):
For example, if you know thatyou have your team member is a
Muslim and that person will befasting Ramadan.
So communicate that, that you'rewilling to may to accommodate
them.
Because what that means is thatthey'll be fasting from sunrise
to sunset.
Also, understand what facilitiesexist within your workplace.
'Cause I remember I was workingin a workplace and when I asked
(10:55):
if I can pray, yes, I was showninto an interview room and this
is where you can pray.
But then I found out there wasactually a prayer room.
But the team leader didn'treally know that there was a
prayer room, and I found out byaccident.
So also under the team leadercan understand what resources
are available and putting itagain in writing and
communicating that to their teammembers.
Greg (11:15):
Your experience around New Zealand over the last few years
is the an increased availabilityof some of those resources.
I know I've seen rooms setaside, and I think you and I had
this conversation a little whileago about, it doesn't
necessarily just have to beprayer room for people who
follow, Muslim or who areMuslim.
(11:36):
It can be a room used for anyother type of, sort of private
activity that other people inthe workplace might need or
want.
Is that becoming more normal, doyou think in New Zealand
workplaces?
Hend (11:50):
Yeah, in some places more than others.
So for example, it doesn't, asyou mentioned, it doesn't have
to be just a prayer room.
It could be a reflection room,it could be a quiet area, just
the clean place where someonecan go.
And the prayer usually takesjust a few minutes, like maximum
five minutes.
So they Muslim and one orMuslims pray five times a day.
And usually it's one or twoprayers that fall within the
workday.
So it doesn't take that muchtime from the workday.
(12:11):
It could be even a room wherepeople go when they're not
feeling well, like it just couldbe a place where they can go,
where to do the prayer.
Greg (12:19):
Yeah.
You I guess just talking moreabout your research and back on
the 9/11 sort of subject andthose, some of those negative
social narratives and how theyshape the Muslims experience in
a western setting, how do youthink that these or did your
research uncover how theseperceptions impacted
(12:44):
psychological safety inworkplaces and maybe crikey,
there may have been other typesof unsafe situations, not just
psychological.
Was there evidence of that inyour in your research?
Hend (12:56):
Yeah.
9/11 have put so Muslims havebeen seen through a security
lens.
And often with suspicion, oftenif someone's not culturally
competent, the way they willdeal with Muslims is that there,
there won't be a trust.
There's something called ingroupand outgroup dynamics, and which
means that with people are partof your ingroup, you trust them
they will progress more.
You'll, the way you'll see theirwork, it'll be more positive.
(13:19):
But when they're part of youroutgroup that will be, they'll
be perceived negatively.
They have to work extra hard toprove themselves.
They won't progress as much.
So it's really important if youhave a team leader for them to
be aware that they do havebiases and how to put those
biases in check.
And that's not just for Muslims,it's for anyone.
But yes, there's definitely,Muslims have faced so many
(13:40):
challenges, particularly becauseof the misconceptions and the
stereotypes around them.
And that's why when you interactwith a Muslim, it's just to be
aware that you can, you couldhave, could be impacted by the
media and what on TV and evencomes to an extent that you
might not empathize with thembecause of your unconscious bias
and what you perceive Muslims tobe.
Greg (14:01):
I've read a couple of books recently of Muslim people
that had been in New Zealand andhave talked of I guess their
experiences as both youngchildren and young adults.
And some of the, I guess thenegative feedback, negative
behaviors that they've faced.
And I would like to think thatsome of that stuff is starting
(14:24):
to turn around as more and morepeople become, aware,
understanding.
I guess we had that tragic eventin in 2019.
Which, I talked to most NewZealanders who would say, I
hadn't even considered that typeof thing would happen here.
I think now it's just in someways has to be expected that it
(14:48):
could happen here.
Again.
And and but hopefully the, someof the work that, that you are
doing and many others ispromoting the acceptance and
understanding of people that aredifferent because, we just have
to, don't we?
Because.
We are living in that type ofenvironment where everybody is
in the same place.
So it's just not appropriate to,to think that your way is the
(15:12):
only way.
And understanding each other'sworldview is important.
Hend (15:18):
Yeah.
And seeing that diversity addsvalue and it's a it's a power.
It's not something to fear.
It's actually.
It benefits businesses, itbenefits the workplace, having
diverse views and everyone addsvalue.
So just if you look at, see,seeing the world as it's only
done one way that doesn'tbenefit anyone, it's actually
diversity is power.
Greg (15:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Something that I'm reallyinterested in that I don't know
a lot about, to be honest, isthe difference between Muslim
and Islam.
And looking, be interested to,to get your explanation of the
two differences and where thetwo sort of contexts can get
used and helping workplaces tryand understand which, how they
(16:03):
should be talking to theirpeople in terms of both of those
contexts.
So can you explain a little bitabout the, those two terms?
Hend (16:10):
So Islam is the religion and Muslims are the people who
practice Islam.
So that's the differentiationbetween the both.
Greg (16:18):
Yes.
And I think, did I hearsomething recently that the
Philippines is the biggestMuslim population in the world?
Indonesia, I believe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That part of the world, yeah.
Wow.
That's that's that's reallyinteresting.
And and so what are some of thethings that you've talked about
prayer rooms.
Is there anything else inworkplaces that, can be
(16:42):
implemented to create moreaccess, equity, inclusion for
Muslim people?
Hend (16:50):
Yeah, so one thing is that the handshake, so we all know
when we meet someone you putyour hand up and you shake their
hands.
And that's considered common,but it's not so for Muslims
sometimes there's restrictionsabout interaction with the
opposite sex, so oppositegender.
So a Muslim woman won't shakehands many Muslim women won't
(17:14):
shake hands was the oppositegender and the same thing.
Men won't shake hands was theopposite gender, especially if
it's someone who's not relatedto them.
So that causes sometimes amisunderstanding.
But basically when you, theadvice is when you meet a Muslim
from the opposite gender is towait for them to put their hand
up.
If they don't, they might justput their hand on their heart
(17:34):
and just Yes.
Express that they're very happyto meet you.
And that has nothing to do withyou.
It's first it is just the waythat their preference of how to
express that the respect.
And that they are happy to meetthe person in front of them.
It's not a handshake.
It could be something else.
And that needs to be normalizedbecause we had a discussion, I
remember in our workshop, Greg,and there's things that came up.
(17:57):
It's actually not just Muslims.
There are so many other culturesthat don't shake hands, but
there's also other reasons.
For example, after COVID,someone might have low immunity
and they don't want to shakehands or a neurodivergant and
they don't wanna shake handsagain.
So there are many, so many otherreasons and just thinking of the
shaking of the hands is the onlyway that we greet people that
(18:17):
needs to be changed in theworkplace and to just accept.
That there are different ways.
That doesn't show any disrespector anything.
Actually.
No.
It shows that they still respectthe person.
They're still happy to meetthem, but they'll greet them
differently.
So I think that's just somethingthat needs to be normalized.
Yeah.
And that the workplace as apeople leader or someone who's
leading an organization, thatcould be something in writing
(18:38):
somewhere that there aredifferent ways of greeting one
another and we should justaccept that.
The other thing is halal food.
And some organizations do thatbetter than the better.
So for example, the Ministry forEthnic Communities, if you go to
any of their events, the foodthere is Halal, they say, and
they provide also differentdietary requirements.
(18:58):
The thing with sometimes wasevents here in New Zealand, and
even sometimes with schools,you'll ask they'll say, what's
your dietary requirements orpreferences?
And you'll put Halal.
But actually the organizersdon't know what Halal is.
So they'll just think that halalmeans vegetarian, which it
doesn't mean vegetarian.
So it's not just you've asked,you've done the work, you've
(19:20):
asked the person what they wantto eat, they've provided to you,
and then you go and you don'tfind that.
So that's not being inclusiveand asking them, but then
actually not actually fulfillingthat requirement.
And it makes the personsometimes feel outta place
because halal food is thatMuslims can eat a chicken, they
can eat beef, they can't eatpork, but it has to, the beef or
chicken has to be halal, butalso you have to avoid a
(19:42):
cross-contamination.
So if you are serving ham, youneed to make sure, or pork, you
need to make sure that it's notcooked in the same pot as the
chicken or the beef that you sayis halal.
If you're able to provide vegan,you're able to provide
gluten-free, then it's not ashard to provide Halal.
It's just, I think it just needsawareness.
(20:02):
If you're gonna ask people whatthey eat and then they provide
you what they eat and thenyou're not able to provide it
it's just, it's a bit tricky.
So it's just awareness, I think.
Greg (20:10):
Yes.
And I was thinking about thegluten-free concept that to be
truly gluten-free, it actuallyneeds to be prepared.
In a different kitchen almostand it's particularly dangerous,
I guess for people that mighthave Celiacs disease.
It's not necessarily an issuefor people that just follow fad
of gluten-free.
But when there's a genuinemedical need then obviously it's
(20:33):
gotta be prepared properly.
So if we can do that for gluten.
What's the hardship in doing itfor halal type products that,
that might be needed.
And I guess there's been somecontroversy around that recently
in New Zealand with some of theschool lunch programs, which is
probably another discussion foranother day.
Hend (20:53):
And Halal food is very, it's available in some
supermarkets.
There's the, for example, halalsausages are available.
Yep.
There's lots of butchers around.
There's even caterers when youtell them they know that they
can't have to provide it.
Greg (21:05):
And it's about the way that it's processed.
Correct.
Hend (21:09):
It's, yeah, the Halal food is the way the like the sheep or
the chicken is killed and thenit has to be done in a specific
way.
And actually in New Zealand,it's available because New
Zealand exports a lot of thechicken to the Muslim world.
Yes.
So it's not easy.
It's not hard to find.
Greg (21:28):
What do you think might be a couple of things.
As I'm a health and safetyprofessional.
This podcast is probablylistened to by a bunch of health
and safety people.
What do you think people inthose types of roles can do to,
a facilitate their own?
Cultural intelligence aroundMuslim and Islam.
(21:49):
But also to help theirworkplaces better understand and
include diversity and in thiscase, Muslim diversity into the
workplaces they work with.
Something that, a couple ofthings that health and safety
people could could specificallydo.
Hend (22:09):
So we've talked about just raising, being aware of Muslims
needs at work, especially likeduring Ramadan, especially
understanding the type of workthat's done during,'cause the,
during Ramadan people fast fromsunrise to sunset, so
understanding when thattimeframe is because it's 10
(22:29):
days early every year.
So understanding when those daysare.
You can attend my workshop,which I provide information
about the Islam, Muslims, andidentity, and yeah, we're just
familiarizing yourself with the,with Islam and Muslims and just
understanding that people can bedifferent in the workplace and
require different needs.
Greg (22:51):
And that speaks to a component of cultural
intelligence which is theknowledge piece, Or some might
call it cultural competency,cultural knowledge, CQ knowledge
is what we call it in the CQworld.
And that's really knowing it'smore than knowing, but it
probably is also understandingthe why behind some of the
values and the norms that thatyou might be trying to get a
(23:13):
better handle on and understandwhy certain things are done and
why I need to behave in this wayand not shake hands with that
person and all of those sorts ofthings.
And so it really is aboutunderstanding and knowing some
stuff as you've said I thinkalso.
If you are, if you do have aworkplace where there are, maybe
(23:36):
lots of Muslim people workingthere just doing some sort of
strategic thinking and planningabout how is the best way to
communicate or and how, equally,how do the Muslim world
communicate with each other.
Is it a collectivist culture oran individualistic culture?
What's their feeling on power,distance or hierarchy?
(23:58):
And some of those sorts ofthings so that you can speak to
those concepts and values, whenyou are presenting to a group.
And I guess those might be acouple of interesting questions
around collectivism andhierarchy, power distance.
Where is the Muslim culturetypically on those two aspects
(24:18):
of cultural values?
Hend (24:21):
Yeah.
There's also understand that theMuslims are diverse.
So there are like 2 billionMuslims around the world.
Yes.
So don't go with assumptions,just get to know the people that
yep.
That who are your colleagues orwho are part of your team.
Just don't, just because oneMuslim does something in a
specific way doesn't mean thatevery Muslim will do it the same
(24:41):
way.
There are, of course, there arefor every practicing Muslim
there, the five pillars ofIslam, which they try and do,
but the, but then there'sdifferent ways of doing things
as well.
And yeah.
For one person, something willbe negotiable for another.
It won't be, it will definitelybe non-negotiable.
For example, yes, shaking hands.
Many Muslim women won't, butsome will.
(25:02):
So you can't just say, becausethis Muslim woman shakes hand,
then why don't you shake hand?
It's
Greg (25:06):
yeah.
Like that.
Yeah.
And wearing hijab and other.
Other other values and norms.
Yeah, I totally appreciate thatthat stereotyping is, something
that we have to be mindful of ornot stereotyping by saying
that's what it is.
I think one of the other groupsthat you are involved in that we
haven't mentioned was theIslamic Women's Council of New
(25:28):
Zealand.
Hend (25:29):
Yep.
So I've, I pre presented a fewtimes my PhD research findings
at their conferences and theycreate a safe space for Muslim
women.
And raise awareness.
Recently I've just partici, I'mworking closely with them on She
Thrives, which is a three partworkshops for Muslim women aged
18 to 30 years old, and it's toprepare them for the workplace
(25:51):
to provide them with skills.
And strategies, but also tocreate these opportunities for
them to build their sisterhoodand grow their network.
Greg (26:00):
Is that called She Thrives?
Was it?
Hend (26:02):
Yeah.
Greg (26:03):
Okay.
Is there, and we can there's alink that we could put up for
that somewhere.
Is there a website or a
Hend (26:08):
yeah, there's a link because it's I mean it's
finishing up now, but if I cangive you a link and it has some,
a bit of information about thedifferent workshops that we've
done together.
Greg (26:16):
Yeah.
Sure.
Great.
And I guess just while we'retalking about some of the groups
you've been involved in, Imentioned right at the beginning
the the Women of Color andPublic Sector Network.
Tell us a little bit about thatgroup.
Hend (26:28):
Yeah, so I'm the founder of the Women of Color in the
Public Sector Network.
And that's a network for womenof color within the public
sector to, it's a safe space forthem to connect and support one
another and thrive together.
We launched last year, but wewere on a journey for about
three years to get to thatlaunch.
I've served as the co-chair fora while and I stepped down just
(26:52):
early this year, and we have twonew co-chairs who are leading.
We have something called theConcrete Ceiling campaign, which
we're raising awareness aboutthe issues that women of color
face in the workplace.
'cause we know from researchthat Pākehā women face the glass
ceiling, but for women of coloror for women from diverse
backgrounds it's a concreteceiling.
(27:12):
And we believe that throughsisterhood, allyship, and
advocacy, we can break thatceiling.
And what the, we have events andactivities to promote that.
And we're working with differentnetworks.
So we've had an event with theWoman of Color Network at the
University of Auckland, we'recollaborating with the
Government Women's Network,which is another employee led
network.
Greg (27:32):
Nice.
Nice.
And I guess we could we couldfinish off with just a bit of a
plug for Zaki Consulting andyou've mentioned the course
that, that I've attended and Iknow you do a few others.
Yeah.
Just do you wanna talk abouttalk about those services that
you offer?
Hend (27:48):
Yeah.
Thank you Greg.
And thank you for attending theworkshop.
So I do have a workshop onIslam, Muslims, and identity,
and I take you on a journey onthat, which is I provide some
basic information about Islam,then about some of the
challenges and opportunitiesthat exist.
And then we look at strategies,how you need to, what you can do
in the workplace to create thatinclusive environment for
Muslims.
So that's one thing is thecross-cultural understanding
(28:11):
that I do through my consulting.
The other thing is, helpingleaders create inclusive
environments.
So I have a program called theRahma Leadership Program, and
Rahma means Compassion inArabic.
And it's a 12 week program tohelp leaders create that
inclusive and thrivingenvironment in the workplace.
It's this it's 12 weeks and itconsists of six workshops on
(28:32):
things like understanding whatis compassionate leadership,
what is ingroup and outgroupdynamics, how do you create a
learning culture?
And I'm collaborating with a fewfacilitators who combine the
academic background and thepractical experience to deliver
that workshop.
One other program I have is thewe thrive together.
(28:53):
And that's for women fromdiverse ethnic backgrounds.
And again, this is a 12 weekprogram to help them learn how
to navigate the workplace andhow to thrive.
It touches on things likeleadership, communication
skills.
How do you grow your network?
And again, I'm collaboratingwith other facilitators to
deliver that program.
So these are the kind ofservices I provide.
(29:14):
So the focus is on inclusiveleadership, Inclusive and
compassionate leadership,Cross-cultural understanding,
building meaningful connectionsin the workplace.
Greg (29:22):
Nice.
I guess just as we wrap up,how's, what's your feeling
around New Zealand's developmentin accepting, being inclusive
towards Muslims that are now,all throughout New Zealand, is,
do you feel that things aregetting better, moving, not
(29:46):
moving, staying static?
What are your observations?
Hend (29:53):
I think generally there's the, there's some understanding,
but it could be more.
That's done to raise awareness.
And it's different from oneorganization to the other.
It's different from one personto the other.
So I've met people who are veryaware, very culturally
competent.
I've met people where there'ssome room for improvement.
Greg (30:10):
So yeah.
I guess as I was asking that,the other thing I was thinking
about was something that youtalked to me about with I think
the maybe people like yourgeneration and younger who are
now creating a almost a dualculture of this sort of this mix
of Western and Muslim.
(30:32):
And I guess following certainaspects of both is, and that
seems to be becoming a littlebit more the way things are
going, I suppose with peoplethat, that move to a Western
country.
Is that typical.
Hend (30:47):
Definitely people are have multiple identities, whether
you're Muslim or non-Muslim,you're always, but with my
research is that there is anemergence of Western Muslim
identities.
So there's Muslims who are bornor raised in this country who
see themselves in New Zealander,in New Zealanders, or Muslim or
New Zealand, Muslim and ethnicidentity the workplace needs to
(31:08):
be prepared for that.
So there is room forimprovement.
Because people are gonna begoing into the workplaces having
all these identities.
And if you want them to thrive,if you want them to be their
best self at work, to do theirbest work, the place needs to be
accepting of all theseidentities.
You can't just be one person atwork and one person at home, and
you have to be comfortable andyou have to see the workplace as
(31:32):
accepting in order for you to beable to thrive.
So the more workplaces realizethat creating an inclusive
environment is actually, yes,it's the right thing to do, but
it's actually also theprofitable thing to do.
Greg (31:42):
A perfect ending to get the the Chief Executives of New
Zealand to start listening anduse that word profitable because
that seems to drive a lot ofdecision making, and if we can
somehow prove.
More.
I think there's plenty ofevidence out there, but prove
that that diversity is is goodfor profitability.
Then we'll all be in a betterplace.
Thanks so much for your time.
(32:03):
It's been great to have you onthe show.
And just to, to catch up againand and learn some learn from
some of your research and someof your experiences.
And yeah, just appreciate youputting the time aside to have a
chat.
Hend (32:18):
Thank you so much, Greg.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Greg (32:25):
What a thought provoking conversation with Hend.
We covered a lot of ground fromhijab and handshakes to halal
food and prayer rooms and howthese realities impact Muslims
at work every single day.
What's clear is that workplacescan't just rely on general
diversity policies.
(32:48):
To ensure people fell seen andsupported organizations need to
embed inclusion into theirsystems, their leadership, and
their everyday interactions.
What stood out most to me inthis conversation was just how
much inclusion depends oncuriosity, the kind that moves
(33:08):
beyond surface level gesturesand into real cultural
understanding.
Hend's experiences and researchhighlight that meaningful
inclusion for Muslim doesn'tjust happen by accident, it
requires intention, humility,and structure.
(33:29):
Here are five key lessons andactions for health and safety
professionals and otherworkplace leaders to build more
inclusive environments for theirMuslim colleagues.
Firstly.
Belonging doesn't come fromappearance, it comes from
acceptance.
What can you do about that?
You can build real connection bygetting to know your team
(33:52):
personally.
Inclusion is felt when peopleare treated as whole
individuals, not stereotypesSecondly, visibility of
difference must not lead toisolation.
Educate staff on diversitywithin Islam and avoid
assumptions, foster curiosityover judgment, especially around
(34:14):
topics like hijab, prayer andgender dynamics.
Third, support cultural needthrough systems, not just
goodwill.
So you can formalizeaccommodations in onboarding
kits and HR policies such asprayer spaces, flexibility
during Ramadan halal foods atevents.
(34:37):
Don't rely on employees havingto ask.
A fourth key takeaway is respectgoes beyond handshakes,
normalize alternative greetings.
Teach teams that gestures likeplacing a hand on the heart are
respectful and rooted inreligious values, not just a
(34:59):
sign of disengagement.
And lastly, psychological safetyrequires cultural intelligence.
Train our leaders to recognizeunconscious bias and ingroup or
outgroup dynamics.
Understand how stereotypes andmedia narratives may silently
(35:21):
shape workplace behavior.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
(35:43):
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
(36:04):
Ma te wa..
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world This episode wecatch up with Dr.
Hend Zaki.
Dr.
Zaki is the founder of Women ofColor in the Public Sector
Network and also Zaki Consultingwhere she helps women connect,
(01:27):
support one another and thrivetogether.
Hend has over 15 years ofexperience in government,
regional and internationalorganizations, and is passionate
about creating inclusive andthriving environments.
Through her consulting companyshe has developed programs to
support women from diverseethnic backgrounds.
(01:48):
She holds a PhD in politics andinternational relations from the
University of Auckland andspecializes in
intersectionality, identity andbelonging.
Her experiences as aninternational student
researcher, employee, andmigrant provide her with a deep
understanding of the challengesfaced by women from diverse
(02:08):
backgrounds, migrants andMuslims in New Zealand and
abroad.
Hend is dedicated to supportingand uplifting women from diverse
ethnic backgrounds.
Originally from Egypt, she movedto New Zealand in 2015 with her
family and has previously livedin the UK and the US.
(02:31):
She speaks Arabic and English,Hend honored to have you on the
show.
Hend (02:37):
Thank you so much, Greg.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Greg (02:40):
So we were just talking before you've just come back
from some time abroad in, Egypt,and you were saying that it's
it's a pretty similartemperature at times to Auckland
and despite my lack of knowledgeof Egypt, it rains a little bit
there.
So you had a great trip.
Hend (02:56):
It was one.
Yeah, we had a great trip.
We were there in April.
So it was good.
It was good weather, really goodweather.
Greg (03:02):
Excellent.
So Hend your career and yourjourney spans multiple
continents and multiplecultures.
With all of that, what personalexperiences first sparked your
curiosity about the intersectionof identity, belonging and the
(03:23):
Muslim experience inmulticultural societies like New
Zealand?
Hend (03:30):
Yeah, great question.
I was actually reflecting onthat a little while ago.
I'm originally from Egypt but Ispent my childhood in the UK and
I did my undergraduate in the USand I came here to New Zealand
to do my PhD with my family.
So I've lived in differentwestern societies as a Muslim.
(03:51):
From my experiences as a child,when I was seven years old, I
moved from Cairo to the UK withmy family'cause my dad was
studying there.
And during that time we spentfive years in the uk.
We moved every single year'causemy dad was getting specific
trainings from differenthospitals.
And every year we would movehouses, we would move cities, we
(04:11):
would move school.
And I didn't understand howsignificant this was until I
became older.
Reflecting on this experiencebecause by the time I was 11, I
went to six or seven differentschools, lived in about six,
seven different homes.
And when I came back to Egypt, Ifelt like I've had this amazing
experience and even though I waswith people who looked like me,
(04:35):
I did not have that sense ofbelonging.
'cause I had this experience andI didn't understand that.
So that's my experience of beingdifferent in the UK and having
that experience, but then goingback home to Egypt and still
feel like you don't have thatsense of belonging.
While I was an undergraduate inthe US, 9/11 happened.
So I arrived there about twoweeks before and that got me, if
(04:57):
you read the research is a lotof Muslims went into a
questioning phase about who theyare, what they believe, and
after that I was like, yes, I'ma Muslim, this is what I
practice and this was mydecision.
And I for me it was.
I started raising awarenessabout Islam and I started
getting more interested into theidentity of Muslims in western
(05:18):
societies.
I did my masters on the identityof Muslims in the US and then I
built on it with my PhD researchon the identity of Muslims in
New Zealand or Australia.
But I was also reflecting how Iactually had a sense of
belonging in the US because fromday one when I was at
university, I started working atthe library and the communities
there, like the librariansbecame my kind of family.
(05:41):
They became my Whanau and theyjust accepted me.
They really were like just, theywere my aunties.
They check on me.
And I've had that sense ofbelonging there because of them,
but I was only able to reflecton that the older I got.
So sometimes you have a sense ofbelonging with people that
sometimes don't look like you,but they do give you that kind
of acceptance.
Greg (06:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess that leads to thatfeeling of inclusion.
And that must have beenextremely challenging, as well
being in the US at that time.
And I think in one of ourprevious conversations, you or
it might have been one of thetraining courses of yours that
I've been on, you talked abouthaving made a decision that you
(06:25):
were going to wear a hijab, andthis was before you went to the
US and you were this young, Ithink, 17-year-old in that
environment when that eventoccurred, which must have been
equally challenging as it wasthe positive stuff that you got
out of those relationships withsome of the people that you
worked with.
(06:46):
So I guess in, in your researchyou talk a little bit about
visibility of Muslimindividuals, particularly the
hijab.
And so what practical steps canpeople in workplaces, in western
countries like New Zealand taketo ensure that visibility of
difference, doesn't translateinto isolation, discrimination
(07:08):
and psychological harm in aworkplace.
Hend (07:11):
Just having an open mind and not making assumptions about
people.
Even Muslims are very diverse.
So just not going into a lot ofpeople like look at Muslim women
and feel like they're oppressedbecause they're wearing the
headscarf and actually the storybehind that could be something
totally different.
Islam does not oppress women.
There's a different, there'svarious reasons why Muslim women
wear the headscarf.
(07:32):
There is a verse in the Koran,and there are different
interpretations, but mostscholars agree that it requires
Muslim women to wear theheadscarf.
So they wear it.
If they wear it because the, forthe most part, they've chosen
that based on theirunderstanding and their beliefs,
and it's part of their identity.
It's not because their husbandshas forced them to do it, or
their male or their fathers haveforced them to do it.
(07:53):
So there's.
Usually it's not that.
So it's just going in with anopen mind and not making
assumptions, and when you askquestions, just asking it
respectfully.
Yeah, because it might be forthe person you're asking this
person this question for thefirst time you're trying to
learn from them, but they'veprobably been asked this
question a hundred of times.
So if there's a way you canmaybe Google search first and
(08:14):
then ask deeper questions, thatwould also be helpful.
Greg (08:19):
Interestingly, I've just come away today from a an
unconscious bias presentationand I think that's what you're
talking to, right?
You're saying rather than Iguess, acting on your
unconscious bias, become curiousas you say, ask those respectful
questions and understand that.
(08:39):
It's simply a differentworldview.
And, that's the worldview thatpeople that follow that religion
or worldview, make thosedecisions.
The majority of which, as yousay, are not forced upon them.
And I think it's just, it's,part of it's probably a lack of
visibility of that outside ofthe Muslim world.
(09:01):
Certainly a long way away fromNew Zealand.
And yeah, I think as, as moreknowledge gets out there and
people do take time to becurious, try to understand
rather than judge.
I think that's an importantpiece.
In your research.
You conducted a number ofinterviews and many of your
(09:22):
respondents talked aboutbalancing their, practices like
prayer or a halal dietary needsin a Western environment.
And again, in a workplace, howcan leaders in a workplace
proactively build inclusiveenvironments to take those types
of things into consideration?
(09:44):
When they've got what is nowprobably a multicultural
workplace no matter where youlook?
Hend (09:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So teams are becoming morediverse and it's the
responsibility of the peopleleader to get to know their
needs of the team they'releading every, so even if it's a
Muslim or non-Muslim, or justunderstanding them and knowing
who they are as people.
Also, it's important tocommunicate that you're willing
to accommodate.
(10:11):
Because sometimes as a Muslim orany other ethnicity, if they
want to be accommodated,sometimes they might find it
hard to ask for thisaccommodation.
So it's good to maybe if it'sjust to first of all understand
the needs of your team and alsoto put it in writing somewhere
maybe an onboarding toolkitwhere you say that you can
accommodate and you can provideexamples of what the
accommodation looks like.
(10:33):
For example, if you know thatyou have your team member is a
Muslim and that person will befasting Ramadan.
So communicate that, that you'rewilling to may to accommodate
them.
Because what that means is thatthey'll be fasting from sunrise
to sunset.
Also, understand what facilitiesexist within your workplace.
'Cause I remember I was workingin a workplace and when I asked
(10:55):
if I can pray, yes, I was showninto an interview room and this
is where you can pray.
But then I found out there wasactually a prayer room.
But the team leader didn'treally know that there was a
prayer room, and I found out byaccident.
So also under the team leadercan understand what resources
are available and putting itagain in writing and
communicating that to their teammembers.
Greg (11:15):
Your experience around New Zealand over the last few years
is the an increased availabilityof some of those resources.
I know I've seen rooms setaside, and I think you and I had
this conversation a little whileago about, it doesn't
necessarily just have to beprayer room for people who
follow, Muslim or who areMuslim.
(11:36):
It can be a room used for anyother type of, sort of private
activity that other people inthe workplace might need or
want.
Is that becoming more normal, doyou think in New Zealand
workplaces?
Hend (11:50):
Yeah, in some places more than others.
So for example, it doesn't, asyou mentioned, it doesn't have
to be just a prayer room.
It could be a reflection room,it could be a quiet area, just
the clean place where someonecan go.
And the prayer usually takesjust a few minutes, like maximum
five minutes.
So they Muslim and one orMuslims pray five times a day.
And usually it's one or twoprayers that fall within the
workday.
So it doesn't take that muchtime from the workday.
(12:11):
It could be even a room wherepeople go when they're not
feeling well, like it just couldbe a place where they can go,
where to do the prayer.
Greg (12:19):
Yeah.
You I guess just talking moreabout your research and back on
the 9/11 sort of subject andthose, some of those negative
social narratives and how theyshape the Muslims experience in
a western setting, how do youthink that these or did your
research uncover how theseperceptions impacted
(12:44):
psychological safety inworkplaces and maybe crikey,
there may have been other typesof unsafe situations, not just
psychological.
Was there evidence of that inyour in your research?
Hend (12:56):
Yeah.
9/11 have put so Muslims havebeen seen through a security
lens.
And often with suspicion, oftenif someone's not culturally
competent, the way they willdeal with Muslims is that there,
there won't be a trust.
There's something called ingroupand outgroup dynamics, and which
means that with people are partof your ingroup, you trust them
they will progress more.
You'll, the way you'll see theirwork, it'll be more positive.
(13:19):
But when they're part of youroutgroup that will be, they'll
be perceived negatively.
They have to work extra hard toprove themselves.
They won't progress as much.
So it's really important if youhave a team leader for them to
be aware that they do havebiases and how to put those
biases in check.
And that's not just for Muslims,it's for anyone.
But yes, there's definitely,Muslims have faced so many
(13:40):
challenges, particularly becauseof the misconceptions and the
stereotypes around them.
And that's why when you interactwith a Muslim, it's just to be
aware that you can, you couldhave, could be impacted by the
media and what on TV and evencomes to an extent that you
might not empathize with thembecause of your unconscious bias
and what you perceive Muslims tobe.
Greg (14:01):
I've read a couple of books recently of Muslim people
that had been in New Zealand andhave talked of I guess their
experiences as both youngchildren and young adults.
And some of the, I guess thenegative feedback, negative
behaviors that they've faced.
And I would like to think thatsome of that stuff is starting
(14:24):
to turn around as more and morepeople become, aware,
understanding.
I guess we had that tragic eventin in 2019.
Which, I talked to most NewZealanders who would say, I
hadn't even considered that typeof thing would happen here.
I think now it's just in someways has to be expected that it
(14:48):
could happen here.
Again.
And and but hopefully the, someof the work that, that you are
doing and many others ispromoting the acceptance and
understanding of people that aredifferent because, we just have
to, don't we?
Because.
We are living in that type ofenvironment where everybody is
in the same place.
So it's just not appropriate to,to think that your way is the
(15:12):
only way.
And understanding each other'sworldview is important.
Hend (15:18):
Yeah.
And seeing that diversity addsvalue and it's a it's a power.
It's not something to fear.
It's actually.
It benefits businesses, itbenefits the workplace, having
diverse views and everyone addsvalue.
So just if you look at, see,seeing the world as it's only
done one way that doesn'tbenefit anyone, it's actually
diversity is power.
Greg (15:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Something that I'm reallyinterested in that I don't know
a lot about, to be honest, isthe difference between Muslim
and Islam.
And looking, be interested to,to get your explanation of the
two differences and where thetwo sort of contexts can get
used and helping workplaces tryand understand which, how they
(16:03):
should be talking to theirpeople in terms of both of those
contexts.
So can you explain a little bitabout the, those two terms?
Hend (16:10):
So Islam is the religion and Muslims are the people who
practice Islam.
So that's the differentiationbetween the both.
Greg (16:18):
Yes.
And I think, did I hearsomething recently that the
Philippines is the biggestMuslim population in the world?
Indonesia, I believe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That part of the world, yeah.
Wow.
That's that's that's reallyinteresting.
And and so what are some of thethings that you've talked about
prayer rooms.
Is there anything else inworkplaces that, can be
(16:42):
implemented to create moreaccess, equity, inclusion for
Muslim people?
Hend (16:50):
Yeah, so one thing is that the handshake, so we all know
when we meet someone you putyour hand up and you shake their
hands.
And that's considered common,but it's not so for Muslims
sometimes there's restrictionsabout interaction with the
opposite sex, so oppositegender.
So a Muslim woman won't shakehands many Muslim women won't
(17:14):
shake hands was the oppositegender and the same thing.
Men won't shake hands was theopposite gender, especially if
it's someone who's not relatedto them.
So that causes sometimes amisunderstanding.
But basically when you, theadvice is when you meet a Muslim
from the opposite gender is towait for them to put their hand
up.
If they don't, they might justput their hand on their heart
(17:34):
and just Yes.
Express that they're very happyto meet you.
And that has nothing to do withyou.
It's first it is just the waythat their preference of how to
express that the respect.
And that they are happy to meetthe person in front of them.
It's not a handshake.
It could be something else.
And that needs to be normalizedbecause we had a discussion, I
remember in our workshop, Greg,and there's things that came up.
(17:57):
It's actually not just Muslims.
There are so many other culturesthat don't shake hands, but
there's also other reasons.
For example, after COVID,someone might have low immunity
and they don't want to shakehands or a neurodivergant and
they don't wanna shake handsagain.
So there are many, so many otherreasons and just thinking of the
shaking of the hands is the onlyway that we greet people that
(18:17):
needs to be changed in theworkplace and to just accept.
That there are different ways.
That doesn't show any disrespector anything.
Actually.
No.
It shows that they still respectthe person.
They're still happy to meetthem, but they'll greet them
differently.
So I think that's just somethingthat needs to be normalized.
Yeah.
And that the workplace as apeople leader or someone who's
leading an organization, thatcould be something in writing
(18:38):
somewhere that there aredifferent ways of greeting one
another and we should justaccept that.
The other thing is halal food.
And some organizations do thatbetter than the better.
So for example, the Ministry forEthnic Communities, if you go to
any of their events, the foodthere is Halal, they say, and
they provide also differentdietary requirements.
(18:58):
The thing with sometimes wasevents here in New Zealand, and
even sometimes with schools,you'll ask they'll say, what's
your dietary requirements orpreferences?
And you'll put Halal.
But actually the organizersdon't know what Halal is.
So they'll just think that halalmeans vegetarian, which it
doesn't mean vegetarian.
So it's not just you've asked,you've done the work, you've
(19:20):
asked the person what they wantto eat, they've provided to you,
and then you go and you don'tfind that.
So that's not being inclusiveand asking them, but then
actually not actually fulfillingthat requirement.
And it makes the personsometimes feel outta place
because halal food is thatMuslims can eat a chicken, they
can eat beef, they can't eatpork, but it has to, the beef or
chicken has to be halal, butalso you have to avoid a
(19:42):
cross-contamination.
So if you are serving ham, youneed to make sure, or pork, you
need to make sure that it's notcooked in the same pot as the
chicken or the beef that you sayis halal.
If you're able to provide vegan,you're able to provide
gluten-free, then it's not ashard to provide Halal.
It's just, I think it just needsawareness.
(20:02):
If you're gonna ask people whatthey eat and then they provide
you what they eat and thenyou're not able to provide it
it's just, it's a bit tricky.
So it's just awareness, I think.
Greg (20:10):
Yes.
And I was thinking about thegluten-free concept that to be
truly gluten-free, it actuallyneeds to be prepared.
In a different kitchen almostand it's particularly dangerous,
I guess for people that mighthave Celiacs disease.
It's not necessarily an issuefor people that just follow fad
of gluten-free.
But when there's a genuinemedical need then obviously it's
(20:33):
gotta be prepared properly.
So if we can do that for gluten.
What's the hardship in doing itfor halal type products that,
that might be needed.
And I guess there's been somecontroversy around that recently
in New Zealand with some of theschool lunch programs, which is
probably another discussion foranother day.
Hend (20:53):
And Halal food is very, it's available in some
supermarkets.
There's the, for example, halalsausages are available.
Yep.
There's lots of butchers around.
There's even caterers when youtell them they know that they
can't have to provide it.
Greg (21:05):
And it's about the way that it's processed.
Correct.
Hend (21:09):
It's, yeah, the Halal food is the way the like the sheep or
the chicken is killed and thenit has to be done in a specific
way.
And actually in New Zealand,it's available because New
Zealand exports a lot of thechicken to the Muslim world.
Yes.
So it's not easy.
It's not hard to find.
Greg (21:28):
What do you think might be a couple of things.
As I'm a health and safetyprofessional.
This podcast is probablylistened to by a bunch of health
and safety people.
What do you think people inthose types of roles can do to,
a facilitate their own?
Cultural intelligence aroundMuslim and Islam.
(21:49):
But also to help theirworkplaces better understand and
include diversity and in thiscase, Muslim diversity into the
workplaces they work with.
Something that, a couple ofthings that health and safety
people could could specificallydo.
Hend (22:09):
So we've talked about just raising, being aware of Muslims
needs at work, especially likeduring Ramadan, especially
understanding the type of workthat's done during,'cause the,
during Ramadan people fast fromsunrise to sunset, so
understanding when thattimeframe is because it's 10
(22:29):
days early every year.
So understanding when those daysare.
You can attend my workshop,which I provide information
about the Islam, Muslims, andidentity, and yeah, we're just
familiarizing yourself with the,with Islam and Muslims and just
understanding that people can bedifferent in the workplace and
require different needs.
Greg (22:51):
And that speaks to a component of cultural
intelligence which is theknowledge piece, Or some might
call it cultural competency,cultural knowledge, CQ knowledge
is what we call it in the CQworld.
And that's really knowing it'smore than knowing, but it
probably is also understandingthe why behind some of the
values and the norms that thatyou might be trying to get a
(23:13):
better handle on and understandwhy certain things are done and
why I need to behave in this wayand not shake hands with that
person and all of those sorts ofthings.
And so it really is aboutunderstanding and knowing some
stuff as you've said I thinkalso.
If you are, if you do have aworkplace where there are, maybe
(23:36):
lots of Muslim people workingthere just doing some sort of
strategic thinking and planningabout how is the best way to
communicate or and how, equally,how do the Muslim world
communicate with each other.
Is it a collectivist culture oran individualistic culture?
What's their feeling on power,distance or hierarchy?
(23:58):
And some of those sorts ofthings so that you can speak to
those concepts and values, whenyou are presenting to a group.
And I guess those might be acouple of interesting questions
around collectivism andhierarchy, power distance.
Where is the Muslim culturetypically on those two aspects
(24:18):
of cultural values?
Hend (24:21):
Yeah.
There's also understand that theMuslims are diverse.
So there are like 2 billionMuslims around the world.
Yes.
So don't go with assumptions,just get to know the people that
yep.
That who are your colleagues orwho are part of your team.
Just don't, just because oneMuslim does something in a
specific way doesn't mean thatevery Muslim will do it the same
(24:41):
way.
There are, of course, there arefor every practicing Muslim
there, the five pillars ofIslam, which they try and do,
but the, but then there'sdifferent ways of doing things
as well.
And yeah.
For one person, something willbe negotiable for another.
It won't be, it will definitelybe non-negotiable.
For example, yes, shaking hands.
Many Muslim women won't, butsome will.
(25:02):
So you can't just say, becausethis Muslim woman shakes hand,
then why don't you shake hand?
It's
Greg (25:06):
yeah.
Like that.
Yeah.
And wearing hijab and other.
Other other values and norms.
Yeah, I totally appreciate thatthat stereotyping is, something
that we have to be mindful of ornot stereotyping by saying
that's what it is.
I think one of the other groupsthat you are involved in that we
haven't mentioned was theIslamic Women's Council of New
(25:28):
Zealand.
Hend (25:29):
Yep.
So I've, I pre presented a fewtimes my PhD research findings
at their conferences and theycreate a safe space for Muslim
women.
And raise awareness.
Recently I've just partici, I'mworking closely with them on She
Thrives, which is a three partworkshops for Muslim women aged
18 to 30 years old, and it's toprepare them for the workplace
(25:51):
to provide them with skills.
And strategies, but also tocreate these opportunities for
them to build their sisterhoodand grow their network.
Greg (26:00):
Is that called She Thrives?
Was it?
Hend (26:02):
Yeah.
Greg (26:03):
Okay.
Is there, and we can there's alink that we could put up for
that somewhere.
Is there a website or a
Hend (26:08):
yeah, there's a link because it's I mean it's
finishing up now, but if I cangive you a link and it has some,
a bit of information about thedifferent workshops that we've
done together.
Greg (26:16):
Yeah.
Sure.
Great.
And I guess just while we'retalking about some of the groups
you've been involved in, Imentioned right at the beginning
the the Women of Color andPublic Sector Network.
Tell us a little bit about thatgroup.
Hend (26:28):
Yeah, so I'm the founder of the Women of Color in the
Public Sector Network.
And that's a network for womenof color within the public
sector to, it's a safe space forthem to connect and support one
another and thrive together.
We launched last year, but wewere on a journey for about
three years to get to thatlaunch.
I've served as the co-chair fora while and I stepped down just
(26:52):
early this year, and we have twonew co-chairs who are leading.
We have something called theConcrete Ceiling campaign, which
we're raising awareness aboutthe issues that women of color
face in the workplace.
'cause we know from researchthat Pākehā women face the glass
ceiling, but for women of coloror for women from diverse
backgrounds it's a concreteceiling.
(27:12):
And we believe that throughsisterhood, allyship, and
advocacy, we can break thatceiling.
And what the, we have events andactivities to promote that.
And we're working with differentnetworks.
So we've had an event with theWoman of Color Network at the
University of Auckland, we'recollaborating with the
Government Women's Network,which is another employee led
network.
Greg (27:32):
Nice.
Nice.
And I guess we could we couldfinish off with just a bit of a
plug for Zaki Consulting andyou've mentioned the course
that, that I've attended and Iknow you do a few others.
Yeah.
Just do you wanna talk abouttalk about those services that
you offer?
Hend (27:48):
Yeah.
Thank you Greg.
And thank you for attending theworkshop.
So I do have a workshop onIslam, Muslims, and identity,
and I take you on a journey onthat, which is I provide some
basic information about Islam,then about some of the
challenges and opportunitiesthat exist.
And then we look at strategies,how you need to, what you can do
in the workplace to create thatinclusive environment for
Muslims.
So that's one thing is thecross-cultural understanding
(28:11):
that I do through my consulting.
The other thing is, helpingleaders create inclusive
environments.
So I have a program called theRahma Leadership Program, and
Rahma means Compassion inArabic.
And it's a 12 week program tohelp leaders create that
inclusive and thrivingenvironment in the workplace.
It's this it's 12 weeks and itconsists of six workshops on
(28:32):
things like understanding whatis compassionate leadership,
what is ingroup and outgroupdynamics, how do you create a
learning culture?
And I'm collaborating with a fewfacilitators who combine the
academic background and thepractical experience to deliver
that workshop.
One other program I have is thewe thrive together.
(28:53):
And that's for women fromdiverse ethnic backgrounds.
And again, this is a 12 weekprogram to help them learn how
to navigate the workplace andhow to thrive.
It touches on things likeleadership, communication
skills.
How do you grow your network?
And again, I'm collaboratingwith other facilitators to
deliver that program.
So these are the kind ofservices I provide.
(29:14):
So the focus is on inclusiveleadership, Inclusive and
compassionate leadership,Cross-cultural understanding,
building meaningful connectionsin the workplace.
Greg (29:22):
Nice.
I guess just as we wrap up,how's, what's your feeling
around New Zealand's developmentin accepting, being inclusive
towards Muslims that are now,all throughout New Zealand, is,
do you feel that things aregetting better, moving, not
(29:46):
moving, staying static?
What are your observations?
Hend (29:53):
I think generally there's the, there's some understanding,
but it could be more.
That's done to raise awareness.
And it's different from oneorganization to the other.
It's different from one personto the other.
So I've met people who are veryaware, very culturally
competent.
I've met people where there'ssome room for improvement.
Greg (30:10):
So yeah.
I guess as I was asking that,the other thing I was thinking
about was something that youtalked to me about with I think
the maybe people like yourgeneration and younger who are
now creating a almost a dualculture of this sort of this mix
of Western and Muslim.
(30:32):
And I guess following certainaspects of both is, and that
seems to be becoming a littlebit more the way things are
going, I suppose with peoplethat, that move to a Western
country.
Is that typical.
Hend (30:47):
Definitely people are have multiple identities, whether
you're Muslim or non-Muslim,you're always, but with my
research is that there is anemergence of Western Muslim
identities.
So there's Muslims who are bornor raised in this country who
see themselves in New Zealander,in New Zealanders, or Muslim or
New Zealand, Muslim and ethnicidentity the workplace needs to
(31:08):
be prepared for that.
So there is room forimprovement.
Because people are gonna begoing into the workplaces having
all these identities.
And if you want them to thrive,if you want them to be their
best self at work, to do theirbest work, the place needs to be
accepting of all theseidentities.
You can't just be one person atwork and one person at home, and
you have to be comfortable andyou have to see the workplace as
(31:32):
accepting in order for you to beable to thrive.
So the more workplaces realizethat creating an inclusive
environment is actually, yes,it's the right thing to do, but
it's actually also theprofitable thing to do.
Greg (31:42):
A perfect ending to get the the Chief Executives of New
Zealand to start listening anduse that word profitable because
that seems to drive a lot ofdecision making, and if we can
somehow prove.
More.
I think there's plenty ofevidence out there, but prove
that that diversity is is goodfor profitability.
Then we'll all be in a betterplace.
Thanks so much for your time.
(32:03):
It's been great to have you onthe show.
And just to, to catch up againand and learn some learn from
some of your research and someof your experiences.
And yeah, just appreciate youputting the time aside to have a
chat.
Hend (32:18):
Thank you so much, Greg.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Greg (32:25):
What a thought provoking conversation with Hend.
We covered a lot of ground fromhijab and handshakes to halal
food and prayer rooms and howthese realities impact Muslims
at work every single day.
What's clear is that workplacescan't just rely on general
diversity policies.
(32:48):
To ensure people fell seen andsupported organizations need to
embed inclusion into theirsystems, their leadership, and
their everyday interactions.
What stood out most to me inthis conversation was just how
much inclusion depends oncuriosity, the kind that moves
(33:08):
beyond surface level gesturesand into real cultural
understanding.
Hend's experiences and researchhighlight that meaningful
inclusion for Muslim doesn'tjust happen by accident, it
requires intention, humility,and structure.
(33:29):
Here are five key lessons andactions for health and safety
professionals and otherworkplace leaders to build more
inclusive environments for theirMuslim colleagues.
Firstly.
Belonging doesn't come fromappearance, it comes from
acceptance.
What can you do about that?
You can build real connection bygetting to know your team
(33:52):
personally.
Inclusion is felt when peopleare treated as whole
individuals, not stereotypesSecondly, visibility of
difference must not lead toisolation.
Educate staff on diversitywithin Islam and avoid
assumptions, foster curiosityover judgment, especially around
(34:14):
topics like hijab, prayer andgender dynamics.
Third, support cultural needthrough systems, not just
goodwill.
So you can formalizeaccommodations in onboarding
kits and HR policies such asprayer spaces, flexibility
during Ramadan halal foods atevents.
(34:37):
Don't rely on employees havingto ask.
A fourth key takeaway is respectgoes beyond handshakes,
normalize alternative greetings.
Teach teams that gestures likeplacing a hand on the heart are
respectful and rooted inreligious values, not just a
(34:59):
sign of disengagement.
And lastly, psychological safetyrequires cultural intelligence.
Train our leaders to recognizeunconscious bias and ingroup or
outgroup dynamics.
Understand how stereotypes andmedia narratives may silently
(35:21):
shape workplace behavior.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
(35:43):
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
(36:04):
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