July 7, 2025 • 42 mins
What a conversation, Marsha always manages to include seriousness, professionalism and fun into every conversation. Before we wrap this episode, let’s reflect on a few key takeaways from my conversation with the incredible Marsha Ramroop:
- Inclusion Starts with Behavior, Not Identity
Marsha emphasized that true inclusion isn't about categorizing others—it’s about examining our own behaviors. This teaches us to Start with introspection to build more inclusive environments. - Cultural Intelligence is the “How” of Inclusion
Through the Cultural Intelligence (CQ) framework, Marsha showed us how behaviors can be intentionally shaped to drive better outcomes in diversity and safety. CQ really does bridge the gap between intent and impact. - Safety Without Inclusion Isn’t Really Safe
From PPE fit to fire door accessibility, Marsha unpacked how exclusionary design can undermine safety efforts. In short If your safety practices aren’t inclusive, they’re not effective. - Storytelling as a Tool for Change
Drawing from her journalism career, Marsha shared how telling unheard stories can shift perspectives and reshape organizational culture. Giving voice to the unheard is how empathy and change begin. - Designing for Inclusion = Designing for Everyone
Whether in architecture or policy, inclusive design benefits more than just marginalized groups—it creates better systems for all. Inclusion is not a nice-to-have; it’s a design principle for progress.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world For this episode,we head to London and chat with
author and ex journalist andsports editor for the BBC no
less, Marsha Ramroop.
Marsha is a global award-winningorganizational inclusion
(01:26):
strategist and founding directorof Unheard Voice Consultancy.
She's also the author ofBuilding Inclusion, a Practical
Guide to EDI in the BuiltEnvironment.
Marsha originally had a 30 yearcareer in Broadcasting,
including, as I said, 20 yearsat the BBC and while at the BBC,
(01:47):
she led inclusion efforts acrossthe Midlands and developed a
pioneering inclusive recruitmentpilot for presenting staff and
inclusive reporter scheme.
She wrote and was leadfacilitator behind the diversity
and inclusion charter forFormula One, goodness me which
was delivered through the RoyalAcademy of Engineering.
(02:09):
She's joined me this year on theCQ Fellows Program, and there's
heaps more that I've left out ofthat introduction and
outstanding cv, but Marsha,welcome to the show.
Yes.
Marsha (02:23):
Thanks so much, Greg.
I'm really looking forward tothis chat'cause you and I have
started to have conversationsabout so many little bits and
things and I have a feelingwe're going to be using this
podcast to continue some ofthose conversations about health
and safety and inclusion and thebuilt environments.
I'm looking forward to it.
Greg (02:40):
Nice.
Nice.
But before we get into all ofthat really important stuff we
were in Thailand, Chiang Mai, tobe exact.
Yes.
What was it?
Three months ago, two monthsago.
I can't believe it's been there.
March.
Beginning of March.
Yeah.
And as part of the process thatwhen the, and the thing we were
on, we got introduced to theAmazing Race.
(03:03):
Now most people will have heardof the Amazing Race and
understand what it's all about.
And this was no different.
We got a set of instructions.
We had to go and find a thing alocal sort of identity location,
and then answer a whole bunch ofquestions.
Or observe some stuff that wasgoing on in Chiang Mai.
(03:24):
So I just wanted to reminisceabout this and be interesting to
see how much of it we bothremember.
I both remember.
Marsha (03:32):
I've got a cheat, I've got a cheat in front of me.
I've got my phone with somephotos and the videos on it so I
can remember what was this thingI did three months ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, incredible.
Greg (03:44):
I was talking to Dannie the other day and and asked her
about the'cause she was on adifferent group to us.
And so the first thing that oneof the first things we had to do
was find a food that nobody inthe group had eaten before.
Dannie had, and her team broughtback some chips that they shared
with, they were Thai chips orcrisps or whatever that they
(04:07):
shared with the group.
We weren't quite so generous.
I don't think we scoffed ourfood on the run we
Marsha (04:13):
did, although it didn't go very far.
It was one we were a little bitstingy as well because there
were four of us and we got onecup of from, I love you, ice
cream and tea.
Or something like it was called.
Yeah, I love ice cream.
Tea Love me.
Ice cream.
Tea.
Greg (04:32):
Yeah, that's right.
Or
Marsha (04:33):
tea ice cream.
And it was like bubble tea andice cream in a cup.
And who would've even thoughtabout it?
in 37 degrees.
We were just looking for an icecream, really, weren't we?
But the fact it had bubble teain it.
And actually I think one of ournumber had never had this sort
of tapioca it is tapioca, isn'tit?
(04:53):
The little balls that were inbubble tea?
Greg (04:55):
I don't know.
I
Marsha (04:56):
dunno.
I dunno.
I'm making that up, but I itlooked incredible.
It looked like one of thoseswirly ice creams in, yeah.
In, in, in a cup.
And the sauce on it was tea, butit if you were just to look at
it, it might look like, I dunno,chocolate, a thin chocolate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the berries on itweren't berries.
(05:17):
They were the tea balls that youget in bubble tea.
So it looked like it might be, Idon't know, blueberries or
something.
Yeah.
So that's the way that itlooked.
And then we all had a bit of a aslurp and a taste and it was
incredible.
And it was really, and actuallyI don't think it could probably
last about two seconds.
All of that.
(05:37):
Gobbled it all down.
Greg (05:39):
Do you remember?
So there was a question.
We had to.
Meet with somebody who lived inChiang Mai and ask their
perspective of what life waslike in that town.
Do you remember that guy?
Marsha (05:54):
That guy was incredible.
He he'd been there for quitesome time.
I can't remember how long.
I remember him, I've got thisvague recollection actually.
He had, said it was like areally good place to live.
And he was, he clearly lookedvery.
Comfortable in Chiang Mai and hewas driving a little he had a
(06:17):
little moped.
You remind me a bit more aboutthat conversation.
Not,
Greg (06:21):
no, that's the other guy.
That's the guy that didn't livein Chiang Ma.
He was an expat, the guy on themoped.
He was an
Marsha (06:27):
next pi.
Oh, the old fellow you aretalking about the other guy.
The guy at
Greg (06:30):
the bar.
Yes.
The guy that was nailing bottletops to the bottom of the stall
at the bar.
Marsha (06:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, I can't really rememberthat conversation.
You're gonna have to remind meabout
Greg (06:39):
that.
He lived out town.
Outta the main town.
But thought Chang Mai was reallygood'cause there was work there
and and really enjoyed workingthere.
But it was like, he was at work,this guy, he was only about 25
and he was at work fixing theold bar stool.
And and there was, I think thebar might have been open or the,
I don't know if it was a bar orI think they were hoping we were
(07:00):
gonna buy
Marsha (07:01):
a shrink and we just stop their staff member from
working for about five minutes.
Greg (07:06):
We were still slurping a milk cream as well, and didn't
quite a
Marsha (07:08):
drink.
But he was great.
He was lovely.
I've got a, I've got a picturehere with him.
Yeah.
Like you say, he was about 25 ayoung thai man with short hair
and a big smile and a peace signand yeah we chatted to him for a
little while and it was.
That's the thing about ChiangMai.
People were generally reallyopen, friendly, and wanted to
(07:32):
help.
And it was happy.
It was a happy place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg (07:37):
Yeah.
A couple of more things that,that, that stuck in my mind.
Remember
Marsha (07:42):
the Museum of Broken Relationships?
Yeah.
I, in Incre, you know what?
I meant to go back there and Ijust ran outta time.
I I took a photo of the what themuseum was about.
It says, the Museum of BrokenRelationships is an ever
evolving collection of objectsdonated by the people around the
world.
(08:02):
All of them symbolizing the endof a relationship.
They're all displayedanonymously using the personal
narratives of their formerowners as the only text, and it
was conceptualized in Croatia in2006 after the demise of the
relationship of its creators.
The museum continues to thrivethrough traveling exhibitions
(08:24):
organized from its originalpermanent base in Zagreb the
capital of Croatia.
And that's incredible, isn't it?
Last
Greg (08:31):
thing we expected to come across, wasn't it a museum?
Marsha (08:34):
Exactly.
In Chiang Mai Yeah.
And
Greg (08:36):
then there was the old guy on the motorbike.
He was from the US.
And he lived for nine months inChiang Mai.
He was a religious guy, wasn'the?
Marsha (08:44):
That's right.
Yes.
Lived and
Greg (08:46):
then he went back to the US for three months before nine
months, a year.
Marsha (08:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nine months in Chiang Mai.
He lives nine months a year,and, but he, and then three
months at home and he, but he'dbeen doing that for 20 years or
something.
Is that He
Greg (08:59):
had children in both countries.
And yeah he loved it.
And then the last memory I'vegot was we'd finished, we'd
answered all the questions.
The amazing race was over.
Marsha (09:10):
Yes.
Greg (09:11):
And we got accosted by a group of three or four school
students who were out on a tourof Chang Mai doing exactly the
same thing.
Yes.
Looking for tourists to say,what do you think of Chang Mai?
Marsha (09:28):
Which is hilarious.
And you very kindly responded tothem.
You took the role ofspokesperson for the group.
Greg (09:36):
Yes.
I'm probably on YouTubesomewhere.
Yeah.
Marsha (09:39):
That was like a, an excellent kind of full circle
moment being asked thosequestions in that way.
Yeah.
And of course we were more thanhappy to give our time because
people have done the same forus.
Greg (09:51):
Indeed.
Marsha (09:51):
There were some cynics in our group when we got back
and told them that story though.
Weren't they concerned that likewe might have been being
accosted or yes.
Being conned or something
Greg (10:02):
like that?
I think they were.
I think we very genuine.
Marsha (10:05):
We did.
Yes.
I think we did a visual andthese things.
And actually, funny enough, tosome extent there is, there,
there is like these biases thatwe use to, to assess people just
on, on site.
And that can work to ouradvantage and sometimes to our
disadvantage.
But these young people who Itook a video of were in their
(10:25):
school uniforms.
They looked very done.
They're studious.
They looked like studiousstudents.
And yeah were very much,involved in asking these
questions and nodding away.
Greg (10:38):
Yeah.
Marsha (10:39):
Yeah.
Best them.
Greg (10:40):
No, that was cool.
It was a cold trip and yeah,just just learned a whole bunch
of stuff and it was a good wayof getting out into the
community and just seeing lifeas it is in a different country.
It was a really good littleicebreaker, I guess was, it
might have been day two or wasit day one?
I can't remember now.
I think
Marsha (10:58):
that was the fir first thing we did really as a agreed
afternoon one, even though we'dmet, yeah, we'd met online, of
course, as a group.
And it's such a good idea interms of if ever looking for a
way to, to get groups, to get toknow each other, give them a
task to achieve together.
And I suppose a competitiveelement between the groups added
for that bonding experience.
(11:19):
It was a really good idea.
And I think I dunno, did anyonewin?
Was there a winner?
Greg (11:25):
I don't.
A prize.
Marsha (11:27):
Oh yeah.
Damn.
Greg (11:30):
But also I think, we often think about and say this in the
sort of the culturalintelligence space, don't we
that just'cause you've got yourpassport's, got a thousand
stamps in it doesn't mean youare necessarily culturally
intelligent because if you'vegone to all of these places
around the world and spent allof your time in the tourist
spots, that ain't helping youvery much.
(11:50):
And we were trying to engagewith locals and go to local sort
of shops or weird museums.
And and.
Just get a feeling for what itwas like for everyday people in
Chiang Mai.
It was cool.
Marsha (12:07):
Yeah.
I think Chiang Mai is certainlybeing in the center of Chiang
Mai, I think it is quite atouristy place, but if you look
properly, you can see real lifeif you like.
Around it.
And really observing her.
People interact with each other.
Thai, local Thai people interactwith each other.
Is really, it's a reallyworthwhile thing to do when you
(12:27):
go traveling.
Not just to stick to, the hoteland the the tourist attractions,
but to really get off the beatentrack and even just some side
streets, you can see real lifedefinitely worthwhile.
Greg (12:42):
Yeah.
So we probably should get alittle bit serious, although
not.
It doesn't have to be Not tooserious.
Totally serious.
Come on, Greg.
Come on.
But I'm really interested tohear about your journey into
cultural intelligence A BBCjournalist in sports, was that
sports all the time or,
Marsha (13:02):
no, it was, it is actually news really.
I fell into sport at a laterpoint, which I'll happily tell
you about.
I mean my, dream as a teenagerwhen I was about sort of 13, 14,
was to work in radio.
I tell the story how ultimatelyit was just because I liked the
sound of my own voice but surelynot, as I actually got my got
(13:25):
going with my career, Irealized, oh, actually this
isn't about me at all.
It's about.
Those unheard voices and how dowe facilitate other people's
stories and give those the bestpossible airing that, that we
can.
And so already you can start tosee how the two, journeys of
journalism and inclusion startto come together.
(13:45):
And when I was at the BBC and Iwas working as a community
journalist, I used to run medialiteracy projects and support
people with, literally, back inthose days it was little MP
three players and little videorecorders and getting people to
record their stories and thentaking the laptop the weighing
laptop that it was in thosedays.
(14:07):
Yeah.
To their community centers andsitting with them and helping
them edit what is it?
How is it that you want thisstory to be told, which is the
bit that you want in, which isyou want out?
And and those stories would thenlive on BBC platforms and it was
really meaningful work and therewas some really rich content
came from that.
But I, this sort of stuff waseasy for me.
(14:28):
I didn't find it, it waschallenging to go into
communities and to to meet.
I was super curious and wantedto explore people's lives that
were very different from my own.
And I learned a lot about reallife that was very diff
literally very different from myown when I was doing that and as
I made my way,'cause I was alsoquite an ambitious person, made
(14:50):
my way up into leadership andmanagement.
Of course I wanted to do more ofthat and trying to decentralize
the news agenda from those whobelieved this is what the top
story should be today, ratherthan actually listening to the
people that were supposed to beserving about what was important
to them.
That was a very difficult sell.
(15:12):
Can you believe it?
Trying to get my colleagues innews to to rethink the agenda
and what should be saying, andcertainly how we should be
saying that.
For example, every so oftenthere would be a monitoring,
diversity monitoring and theteam would know it was coming
and they would do this thingwhere they'd do this really
(15:34):
tokenistic thing where.
Oh no Monitoring's coming upnext week where you need to make
sure we've got like a gay personat breakfast and make sure we
have a disability story inafternoons and make sure we've
got, the Muslim experience indrive time and I hated that.
I absolutely, I would like nono.
(15:57):
Yeah, no.
We, not only should we do bedoing this all the time, but
who, just because someone's aMuslim doesn't mean that we are
just gonna be talking to theabout them, their faith all the
time.
Their business people.
They have opinions about,planning, like what, let's just
incorporate people from theirfrom their own perspective.
Of course.
(16:18):
On in, on every story.
Yeah.
And I couldn't, I dunno why thiswas so difficult to get into
people's heads about not onlyhow straightforward it was, but
just how to really open upgiving this on her voice.
I started looking around.
So why is it that we know weneed to be doing something about
diversity?
(16:39):
And we might even know what wewant those outcomes to look
like, but the how is warped.
It's just we are not doing itright.
Why is it that people just don'tget it in the way that I do?
So that's when I startedsearching and scrambling around
looking for an answer.
And I, that's when I came acrossDavid Livermore's leading with
(17:02):
cultural intelligence.
Oh yeah.
Yep.
And I I ordered that and I readit and I, oh my gosh.
It was like, boom.
Mind blowing, this is it.
This is an excellent framework.
The how we're going to movepeople forward from knowing that
why they want to do thingsthrough to the what they want,
(17:23):
the this to look like.
It's the how we're gonna getthem there.
And I I myself didn't, I tellthis story actually in the
preface of my book, BuildingInclusion that I have never
perceived identity in the sameway as some other people do.
Be grouping people together inthat way.
I've always seen people ashaving multiple identities.
(17:46):
We're all layered in lots ofdifferent ways.
And just because someone looks acertain way doesn't mean they're
gonna behave in a certain way.
And so I never looked atinclusion through the eyes of
identity.
It was always through behaviors,who am I what do I do?
How do I do that?
And inclusion for me is allabout, it's not about other
(18:08):
people and their identities.
It's about us and our behaviors.
And that it's culturalintelligence became a really
clear, how do I do theintrospective piece of work to
support others to be moreinclusive?
And that's how I started usingit.
And I you mentioned the, incluInclusive reporting program that
I did, and I, one of the placesI ended up working was BBC Radio
(18:30):
Leicester, which was just afterthey won the premiership, I'm
afraid.
So I missed that moment.
They, that happened in 2016 andI started in 2017, but they
still riding high when I startedthere.
However, as you can imagine, aplace like Leicester or you may
not know, but Leicester in, inin England in the English.
(18:51):
East Midlands is one of the mostracially diverse places in the
country.
So 50% not white, which isunusual for the UK.
So there are a couple of citiesnow that, that are like that,
but it had massive Indianimmigration East, east African
Indian immigration following thedistress of what happened in
(19:14):
Uganda and in Kenya in, in the1970s.
There were a huge amount ofsettlers and that there is a lot
of racial diversity in Leicesterand that racial diversity was
not reflected either in ourcontent or in our staff.
And there were even some staffmembers who worked in BBC local
(19:35):
radio in Leicester, who hadnever really gone into some of
the Indian communities.
And they were fearful.
They were worried about sayingthe wrong thing and doing the
wrong thing.
And I used the culturalintelligence framework drive
knowledge, strategy, and actionto weave them into how can they
approach their reporting moreinclusively.
(19:57):
So that was a program that I ledand the feedback on that was
incredible.
The the staff saying how muchmore confident they felt and
what they could do differentlyin terms of.
How they were gonna reportdifferently and think
differently about the content.
So that was great.
The sport element actually waswhen I was at BBC Radio Derby,
when I become news and sporteditor.
(20:19):
It was just tagged onto the newsagenda.
And I was working with someincredible people who, just were
passionate but also knew whenthey had to step back from their
love of especially the game.
So here in Derby the mainfootball team is Derby County.
But we also cover Burton Albion.
(20:39):
We, they, not we, that was like10 least and years ago.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, they cover the.
Burton Albion as well as DerbyCounty.
And then there was like cricketand I got to go some to some
incredible games.
When the West Indies were doinga friendly, playing friendly
(20:59):
over talk to Brian Lara that's aTrinidadian.
I'm a Trinidadian, so that'sincredible.
Greg (21:05):
You're just name dropping now because I've seen a photo of
you with Christian Horner.
Yeah.
Oh, yes, that's right.
And Christian Horner didn't lookparticularly happy about having
to have his photo taken, but
Marsha (21:18):
That was, yeah, that was as part of the so the Royal
Academy, this is just a coupleof years ago the Royal Academy
of Engineering after I left theBBC, I just started working
full-time on in Unheard Voice,my own consultancy which is
rooted in cultural intelligence,bringing inclusion to
organizations.
And it is a really long storyhow I ended up doing it but the
(21:41):
Royal Academy of Engineeringhired me to support facilitate
and write with Formula One andthe Formula One teams A DNI
charter.
And of course I don't do thingsby halves.
I was never going to do anythingtokenistic.
And it is rooted in thebehaviors of cultural
intelligence.
How do the behaviors and cultureinform how you deliver the
(22:04):
policies, procedures, andpractices across how you attract
a diversity of people into thesport?
How you treat progress andretain that diversity, how you
create.
Inclusive design, productservices and work with the
supply chain for the sport.
And then how do you engage withusers, customers, fans,
sponsors, partners and otherstakeholders.
(22:27):
Engage with them inclusively.
So those four pillars attract,retain, create, and engage which
are.
I suppose a bit of a signatureof mine.
They're in Building Inclusionare very prominent in the d and
i charter Formula One.
But as part of that wholeprocess it involved a lot of
stakeholder relationshipmanagement, which involved going
to Red Bull, which wasincredible to talk to Christian
(22:50):
Horner about what the charterwas about and what he would be
signing the team up to.
And you go into the thereception of Red Bull and the
place is absolutely festoonedwith thousands, literally
thousands of like trophies,silverware.
It's mind boggling.
(23:10):
Mind boggling.
How many medals?
Trophies.
It's unbelievable.
I didn't show you that picture.
I should, I, I should show youthat sometime.
But it was, and then having it,good sort of 60, 90 minute
conversation where he challengedme and I challenged him back and
and, in November, 2024 all 10teams, formula One and the FIA
(23:33):
signed a commitment todelivering on the principles of
that charter.
Greg (23:39):
For those listeners that aren't Petrolhead Christian
Horner is the team principal atRed Bull Racing and husband to
Jerry Horner ex Spice Girl.
Just a bit of uselessinformation.
Yeah.
For people that are listening.
But he is been in that role for20 years or something, hasn't
he?
He's been around and obviouslymore recently it's been a bit
(23:59):
controversial, but yes, that'sthe story for another podcast.
So safety and I think you've gota little bit of a soft spot for
safety.
We don't need to go into whynecessarily, but I think you've
got a soft spot for safety.
And I guess I'd be interested inyour views on how, if you think
about construction andengineering, safety's obviously
(24:23):
a critical component of thoseenvironments.
What impact does understandingcultural norms have?
On creating good understandingof risk, good management of risk
and team cohesion, which you'vetouched on at various points in
the last five or 10 minutes.
Marsha (24:44):
It's crucial.
It's massive.
I ended up in the builtenvironment a bit by chance, I
had left the BBCs working my ownconsultancy and following the
murder of George Floyd which wejust recently marked, the five
year anniversary of, a lot ofBritish organizations did a bit
(25:05):
of introspective work and foundthemselves wanting in terms of
how they were approaching issuesof racial justice and generally
inclusion.
And the Royal Institute ofBritish Architects was one of
those organizations, and when Isaw their role for the inaugural
director of inclusion, I thoughtit wasn't so much that.
I needed that job.
My consultancy was off to a goodstart, and I knew that I was, I
(25:29):
was busy, but I wanted that joband I wanted that job because I
believe that if I couldinfluence the creation of
inclusive spaces, I couldinfluence the creation of an
inclusive world.
A very no, not ambitious at all.
But fundamentally coming intothe sector opened my eyes to so
(25:50):
many things.
And when I started working inarchitecture and looking at the,
it doesn't work on its ownarchitects obviously work with
the wider sector.
Looking at.
Who was involved who haddecision making opportunity, who
was setting the agenda, who hada chance to thrive.
(26:13):
who was even getting a look intoto work in any of these sectors.
It just wasn't the mix thatrepresented the actual
environment in which everyonelives.
It was any particulardemographic.
And the other thing that, ofcourse the background to, to
the.
The shadow, over the builtenvironment sector was the 2017
(26:35):
fire in in the Grenfell Tower inwhich 72 people lost their
lives.
And with all of these thingscombined safety it was one of
the key facets and thinking whatis it that this sector needs to
do in order to be trulyinclusive of all those who exist
(26:58):
in it let alone work in it.
And I started to look at issuesof ethics, innovation,
sustainability as well asinclusion and and safety was up
there with all of that.
And culture is an underpinningprinciple, culture and behaviors
(27:18):
to how we approach these things.
And if you don't have, anunderstanding of people's
different needs, not only inorder to deliver safety, but to
receive it.
Then, we're going to struggle inbeing able to do it effectively.
Cultural intelligence as abehavioral framework is very
(27:40):
useful to support individualsand organizations with how to
deliver safety culture in aninclusive way.
And currently working with somecolleagues here in the uk around
something called the EquitableSafety Initiative.
And the thinking behind this isif you don't make safety
(28:04):
information or trainingeducation and implementation
inclusive in and of itself, IE.
The right size, PPE instructionsin different languages mindful
of different needs.
For example, how heavy a firedoor is if someone is, using it.
(28:26):
And due to their many years ofwork their arms aren't as strong
as they used to be, or, yeah.
If you're not mindful of thesethings, and actually are you
creating safety in the firstplace?
And the answer is probably no,you are not.
And then so then.
Are you being an eff effectivehealth and safety professional?
(28:48):
And then are you being effectivein the outcomes that you want to
create in the world?
It's key.
It's key.
Obviously all of these thingsare very multifaceted and you
have to look at them throughthat overarching perspective and
underpinning principle ofinclusion.
But if you apply it across thosefour pillars, how you attract
people to the health and safetyprofessions, how you treat
(29:10):
progress and retain thosepeople.
Then how you are creating healthand safety outputs in terms of
that, products, those servicesthe impact and then how you are
engaging with the users and avariety of users, customers,
clients, communities.
Then you have an overarchingperspective and underpinning
principle to safety.
(29:32):
That will be far more inclusive,but it has to be informed by the
better culture and behaviorsthat can be informed, again, by
the cultural intelligenceframework.
Greg (29:42):
I guess it's not all on the safety guy though, is it?
It's a, it's an inclusive, touse that word process, that has
to include the designers and thearchitects and the engineers and
the development companies andthe landowners and all of that
sort of stuff.
Marsha (29:56):
Yes.
And I think really importantlyon that point is, everyone on
that scale recognizing thatthere are other people who have
expertise that is worthlistening to.
One of the things I discoveredabout architects is that they
can be incredibly egoistical andbelieve that they hold the whole
(30:18):
they need to know everything anddo everything and aren't always
particularly collaborative, theyreally believe in their own
self-worth, which is fine.
But recognizing where that endsand where other people's begins
would be really important forthe architecture profession in
particular, to let go of some ofthat ego.
(30:38):
So that design could be donebetter.
Greg (30:41):
I believe there's an organization here in New
Zealand, I dunno a lot aboutthem called the Diversity
Agenda, who works specificallywith engineers and architects
around issues of diversity aswell.
It's, a, I guess a bit of amovement.
And so your book.
It was only released like acouple of months ago.
Have you written a book, Marsha?
I
Marsha (31:00):
have you not heard Greg?
I've written a book.
It's called Building Inclusion.
Yes.
You take every possibleopportunity to talk about it.
The book was published,actually.
I can't believe it.
How long ago it was actuallypublished.
Official date of publication wasthe 30th of August.
There was a bit of hiccup withpublication, and so it was
(31:22):
actually available for people onthe 12th of September last year,
2024.
And it is a practical guide ofhow to deliver on the behaviors
and the culture.
And the policies, procedures andpractices across how you
attract, retain, create, andengage for the whole of the
(31:45):
built environment.
But it is a little bit morebroad than that because I,
myself, I'm not an architect,not a planner.
I'm, I'm formerly a journalistand so what I say to people is
that I'm not gonna tell anyonehow to do what they do.
I just give them a new lens sothat they can do it more
inclusively, because ourbehaviors are human and our
(32:07):
organizations are run by humans,and our systems are human made.
And so when humans input moreinclusively then the outputs are
more inclusive and can beconsciously inclusive.
And so what I say the book isabout is if we're not
consciously building inclusioninto our world, then we are
unconsciously building inexclusion.
(32:28):
And so the book is to helppeople to be conscious and
intentional about how to buildinclusion into our world.
And yeah, starts with thatbehavioral piece.
It's all about understandingbias, why we.
Why we are biased and how thecultural intelligence framework
can help.
Some conversational frameworksto support with those necessary
(32:49):
conversations.
We need to have.
How to say no, how to deal withthings called microaggressions,
where those small snobs andpaper cuts if you like, that
people who are discriminated canagainst, can face.
Regularly how to deal withthose.
And then going on to some ofthose policies, procedures, and
practices.
Some are considered to be HRpolicies and then some are
(33:12):
organizational ones.
And then.
How design can be done,inclusively, resources available
to help people with that.
And then supply chain inclusiveapproaches to procurement.
And then engagement, how to workwith people externally and
challenge as well, your clients,even around how they can be more
inclusive and what can happenand the benefits that.
(33:35):
That happen when you do, and thedisasters when you don't.
And the case studies people whoare actually doing this stuff
well and what you can learn fromthem and take that away.
And after each case study, I'veused the cultural intelligence
framework to do what I call abehavioral analysis or because
every case study may feel like Idon't work in that sector, so
how is that case study relevantto me?
(33:55):
But what the behavioral analysisdoes is it asks a few key
questions that you can, thatcase study prompt.
To help you as an individual andas an organization to think how
can I do inclusive recruitment?
Oh I don't work in thisparticular sector, but these are
the kinds of questions I can askaround drive, knowledge,
strategy, and action.
Therefore capabilities ofcultural intelligence so that I
(34:18):
can look to do this thing moreinclusively myself.
It's a great book everyone.
Greg (34:24):
We can put a link to it in the yes.
In the transcript.
Yeah.
Marsha (34:28):
Thank you so much.
Greg (34:30):
Excellent.
And I can't believe that timehas has flown past.
I wanna put one, I guessquestion or ask you for one more
bit of feedback.
Put yourself in the shoes of ahealth and safety professional.
Is there a couple of reallypractical things, either from
your book or just from your ownknowledge around what safety
(34:54):
professionals can do to enhancetheir own cultural intelligence
to be able to better serve thediversity of workplaces that
they no doubt work in?
Wherever in the world they mightbe.
Marsha (35:08):
Yeah.
Couple of things that the firstthing I'd say is that those
working in health and safety doso because you really believe in
what you do.
You want to keep people safe.
And so I would challenge you touse that motivation that you
have to keep people safe torecognize who you are not
keeping safe.
So just in the first instance,make a list of, I don't know,
(35:31):
the top 25 people that you workwith and then start to examine
what are the influences that youhave in your own life that you
are thinking about.
And recognize where the gaps arein, in that list, what
demographics aren't involved,and then seek to fill those gaps
(35:53):
around a different demographicneeds because there, this is
where demographics is important.
Because different livingexperiences have different
impacts in the world andtherefore need to be catered for
in particular ways.
And where you feel that youcan't keep people safe because
of course you can't cater forthe tallest person and the
(36:15):
shortest person necessarily.
Make sure that you have somekind of provision in place, be
it some kind of.
Know, what mitigation you needto, depending on the context to
make sure that those people knowthat you've thought about them.
So that's just a couple ofthings.
And then you'll see that onceyou start to to, to peel back
(36:38):
those layers that you just get,become a better health and
safety professional as a result.
Greg (36:44):
Right back to the, when you first started talking about
that and the first thing thatcame to my mind was a rhetorical
question that somebody raisedduring a presentation I was at
six months ago, and it was Whatpercentage of your employees put
your yourself in a leadershiprole or a health and safety
role, whatever.
What percentage of youremployees is it okay to not
(37:07):
communicate with effectively?
Now we know what the answershould be.
But then if you then go andthink about the people that you
work with, what's the reality ofthat situation in terms of that
question?
How, what, who's missing out, toyour company name, who are the
unheard voices that, that arenot being heard?
(37:30):
Because.
Maybe you've got some blinkerson and either don't see them or
haven't considered some of thethings that you've talked about.
Yeah.
Interesting.
It was just, it was a question.
Great question.
It was, and I'll tell you whatthe subject matter was,
neurodiversity which, if we, Iguess if we think about cultural
intelligence.
(37:51):
It's an invisible aspect ofdifference.
You can't tell if somebody'sdyslexic or a ADHD or whatever
it might be.
And yeah, I thought it was a,just a really very thought
provoking question.
Marsha (38:05):
Very thought provoking.
Such a good question.
I think I might steal that one.
Coming up to a workshop nearyou.
Greg (38:16):
Hey, Marsha I when I came, I was thinking about this
podcast, I thought, oh yeah,we're gonna, we are gonna talk
about architecture and buildinginclusion and we did a little
bit of that.
But it's been a blast which Iprobably should have expected.
Of course.
Always
Marsha (38:32):
good to talk to you, Greg.
Thank you so much for thisinvitation, and I really hope
that your your good listener isI is inspired to go and to have
a look of not only a culturalintelligence and building
inclusion, but their ownbehaviors.
Because although thatintrospective piece of work can
be uncomfortable, when you leaninto that discomfort and learn
(38:54):
and grow, it's such a powerfultool to support inclusion for
others.
Nice.
Greg (39:00):
Nice.
What a great way to end.
Thanks so much for your time andit's time for your what, second
or third cup of tea of themorning.
Although that's trying to fifthcoffee.
Marsha (39:10):
That's what, there you go.
I'm wired ready for the day.
Greg (39:13):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Cool.
Hey, thanks for your time,Marsha.
Marsha (39:17):
Take it easy.
Thanks so much.
Greg (39:22):
What a conversation Marsha always manages to include
seriousness, professionalism,and fun into every conversation
she has.
Before we wrap this episode,let's reflect on a few key
takeaways from my conversationwith Marsha.
Inclusion starts with behavior,not identity.
(39:46):
Marsha emphasized that trueinclusion isn't about
categorizing others, It is moreabout emphasizing our own
behaviors.
This teaches us to start withintrospection to build more
inclusive environments.
Next, we talked about culturalintelligence being the how of
(40:08):
inclusion.
Through the culturalintelligence framework, Marsha
showed us how behaviors can beintentionally shaped to drive
better outcomes in diversity andsafety.
CQ really does bridge the gapbetween intent and impact.
(40:28):
Our third takeaway, safetywithout inclusion isn't really
safe, from PPE Fit to fire Dooraccessibility, Marsha unpacked
how exclusionary design canundermine safety efforts.
In short, if your safetypractices aren't inclusive,
(40:49):
they're not effective.
Next, we talked aboutstorytelling as a tool for
change and drawing from herjournalism career.
Marsha shared how tellingunheard stories can shift
perspectives and reshapeorganizational culture.
Giving voice to the unheard ishow empathy and change begins.
(41:14):
And finally.
Designing for inclusion equalsdesigning for everyone.
Whether in architecture orpolicy, inclusive design
benefits more than just themarginalized groups, it creates
better systems for all.
Meaning inclusion is not just anice to have, it's a design
(41:37):
principle for progress.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
(41:59):
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
(42:21):
Ma te wa..
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world For this episode,we head to London and chat with
author and ex journalist andsports editor for the BBC no
less, Marsha Ramroop.
Marsha is a global award-winningorganizational inclusion
(01:26):
strategist and founding directorof Unheard Voice Consultancy.
She's also the author ofBuilding Inclusion, a Practical
Guide to EDI in the BuiltEnvironment.
Marsha originally had a 30 yearcareer in Broadcasting,
including, as I said, 20 yearsat the BBC and while at the BBC,
(01:47):
she led inclusion efforts acrossthe Midlands and developed a
pioneering inclusive recruitmentpilot for presenting staff and
inclusive reporter scheme.
She wrote and was leadfacilitator behind the diversity
and inclusion charter forFormula One, goodness me which
was delivered through the RoyalAcademy of Engineering.
(02:09):
She's joined me this year on theCQ Fellows Program, and there's
heaps more that I've left out ofthat introduction and
outstanding cv, but Marsha,welcome to the show.
Yes.
Marsha (02:23):
Thanks so much, Greg.
I'm really looking forward tothis chat'cause you and I have
started to have conversationsabout so many little bits and
things and I have a feelingwe're going to be using this
podcast to continue some ofthose conversations about health
and safety and inclusion and thebuilt environments.
I'm looking forward to it.
Greg (02:40):
Nice.
Nice.
But before we get into all ofthat really important stuff we
were in Thailand, Chiang Mai, tobe exact.
Yes.
What was it?
Three months ago, two monthsago.
I can't believe it's been there.
March.
Beginning of March.
Yeah.
And as part of the process thatwhen the, and the thing we were
on, we got introduced to theAmazing Race.
(03:03):
Now most people will have heardof the Amazing Race and
understand what it's all about.
And this was no different.
We got a set of instructions.
We had to go and find a thing alocal sort of identity location,
and then answer a whole bunch ofquestions.
Or observe some stuff that wasgoing on in Chiang Mai.
(03:24):
So I just wanted to reminisceabout this and be interesting to
see how much of it we bothremember.
I both remember.
Marsha (03:32):
I've got a cheat, I've got a cheat in front of me.
I've got my phone with somephotos and the videos on it so I
can remember what was this thingI did three months ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, incredible.
Greg (03:44):
I was talking to Dannie the other day and and asked her
about the'cause she was on adifferent group to us.
And so the first thing that oneof the first things we had to do
was find a food that nobody inthe group had eaten before.
Dannie had, and her team broughtback some chips that they shared
with, they were Thai chips orcrisps or whatever that they
(04:07):
shared with the group.
We weren't quite so generous.
I don't think we scoffed ourfood on the run we
Marsha (04:13):
did, although it didn't go very far.
It was one we were a little bitstingy as well because there
were four of us and we got onecup of from, I love you, ice
cream and tea.
Or something like it was called.
Yeah, I love ice cream.
Tea Love me.
Ice cream.
Tea.
Greg (04:32):
Yeah, that's right.
Or
Marsha (04:33):
tea ice cream.
And it was like bubble tea andice cream in a cup.
And who would've even thoughtabout it?
in 37 degrees.
We were just looking for an icecream, really, weren't we?
But the fact it had bubble teain it.
And actually I think one of ournumber had never had this sort
of tapioca it is tapioca, isn'tit?
(04:53):
The little balls that were inbubble tea?
Greg (04:55):
I don't know.
I
Marsha (04:56):
dunno.
I dunno.
I'm making that up, but I itlooked incredible.
It looked like one of thoseswirly ice creams in, yeah.
In, in, in a cup.
And the sauce on it was tea, butit if you were just to look at
it, it might look like, I dunno,chocolate, a thin chocolate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the berries on itweren't berries.
(05:17):
They were the tea balls that youget in bubble tea.
So it looked like it might be, Idon't know, blueberries or
something.
Yeah.
So that's the way that itlooked.
And then we all had a bit of a aslurp and a taste and it was
incredible.
And it was really, and actuallyI don't think it could probably
last about two seconds.
All of that.
(05:37):
Gobbled it all down.
Greg (05:39):
Do you remember?
So there was a question.
We had to.
Meet with somebody who lived inChiang Mai and ask their
perspective of what life waslike in that town.
Do you remember that guy?
Marsha (05:54):
That guy was incredible.
He he'd been there for quitesome time.
I can't remember how long.
I remember him, I've got thisvague recollection actually.
He had, said it was like areally good place to live.
And he was, he clearly lookedvery.
Comfortable in Chiang Mai and hewas driving a little he had a
(06:17):
little moped.
You remind me a bit more aboutthat conversation.
Not,
Greg (06:21):
no, that's the other guy.
That's the guy that didn't livein Chiang Ma.
He was an expat, the guy on themoped.
He was an
Marsha (06:27):
next pi.
Oh, the old fellow you aretalking about the other guy.
The guy at
Greg (06:30):
the bar.
Yes.
The guy that was nailing bottletops to the bottom of the stall
at the bar.
Marsha (06:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, I can't really rememberthat conversation.
You're gonna have to remind meabout
Greg (06:39):
that.
He lived out town.
Outta the main town.
But thought Chang Mai was reallygood'cause there was work there
and and really enjoyed workingthere.
But it was like, he was at work,this guy, he was only about 25
and he was at work fixing theold bar stool.
And and there was, I think thebar might have been open or the,
I don't know if it was a bar orI think they were hoping we were
(07:00):
gonna buy
Marsha (07:01):
a shrink and we just stop their staff member from
working for about five minutes.
Greg (07:06):
We were still slurping a milk cream as well, and didn't
quite a
Marsha (07:08):
drink.
But he was great.
He was lovely.
I've got a, I've got a picturehere with him.
Yeah.
Like you say, he was about 25 ayoung thai man with short hair
and a big smile and a peace signand yeah we chatted to him for a
little while and it was.
That's the thing about ChiangMai.
People were generally reallyopen, friendly, and wanted to
(07:32):
help.
And it was happy.
It was a happy place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg (07:37):
Yeah.
A couple of more things that,that, that stuck in my mind.
Remember
Marsha (07:42):
the Museum of Broken Relationships?
Yeah.
I, in Incre, you know what?
I meant to go back there and Ijust ran outta time.
I I took a photo of the what themuseum was about.
It says, the Museum of BrokenRelationships is an ever
evolving collection of objectsdonated by the people around the
world.
(08:02):
All of them symbolizing the endof a relationship.
They're all displayedanonymously using the personal
narratives of their formerowners as the only text, and it
was conceptualized in Croatia in2006 after the demise of the
relationship of its creators.
The museum continues to thrivethrough traveling exhibitions
(08:24):
organized from its originalpermanent base in Zagreb the
capital of Croatia.
And that's incredible, isn't it?
Last
Greg (08:31):
thing we expected to come across, wasn't it a museum?
Marsha (08:34):
Exactly.
In Chiang Mai Yeah.
And
Greg (08:36):
then there was the old guy on the motorbike.
He was from the US.
And he lived for nine months inChiang Mai.
He was a religious guy, wasn'the?
Marsha (08:44):
That's right.
Yes.
Lived and
Greg (08:46):
then he went back to the US for three months before nine
months, a year.
Marsha (08:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nine months in Chiang Mai.
He lives nine months a year,and, but he, and then three
months at home and he, but he'dbeen doing that for 20 years or
something.
Is that He
Greg (08:59):
had children in both countries.
And yeah he loved it.
And then the last memory I'vegot was we'd finished, we'd
answered all the questions.
The amazing race was over.
Marsha (09:10):
Yes.
Greg (09:11):
And we got accosted by a group of three or four school
students who were out on a tourof Chang Mai doing exactly the
same thing.
Yes.
Looking for tourists to say,what do you think of Chang Mai?
Marsha (09:28):
Which is hilarious.
And you very kindly responded tothem.
You took the role ofspokesperson for the group.
Greg (09:36):
Yes.
I'm probably on YouTubesomewhere.
Yeah.
Marsha (09:39):
That was like a, an excellent kind of full circle
moment being asked thosequestions in that way.
Yeah.
And of course we were more thanhappy to give our time because
people have done the same forus.
Greg (09:51):
Indeed.
Marsha (09:51):
There were some cynics in our group when we got back
and told them that story though.
Weren't they concerned that likewe might have been being
accosted or yes.
Being conned or something
Greg (10:02):
like that?
I think they were.
I think we very genuine.
Marsha (10:05):
We did.
Yes.
I think we did a visual andthese things.
And actually, funny enough, tosome extent there is, there,
there is like these biases thatwe use to, to assess people just
on, on site.
And that can work to ouradvantage and sometimes to our
disadvantage.
But these young people who Itook a video of were in their
(10:25):
school uniforms.
They looked very done.
They're studious.
They looked like studiousstudents.
And yeah were very much,involved in asking these
questions and nodding away.
Greg (10:38):
Yeah.
Marsha (10:39):
Yeah.
Best them.
Greg (10:40):
No, that was cool.
It was a cold trip and yeah,just just learned a whole bunch
of stuff and it was a good wayof getting out into the
community and just seeing lifeas it is in a different country.
It was a really good littleicebreaker, I guess was, it
might have been day two or wasit day one?
I can't remember now.
I think
Marsha (10:58):
that was the fir first thing we did really as a agreed
afternoon one, even though we'dmet, yeah, we'd met online, of
course, as a group.
And it's such a good idea interms of if ever looking for a
way to, to get groups, to get toknow each other, give them a
task to achieve together.
And I suppose a competitiveelement between the groups added
for that bonding experience.
(11:19):
It was a really good idea.
And I think I dunno, did anyonewin?
Was there a winner?
Greg (11:25):
I don't.
A prize.
Marsha (11:27):
Oh yeah.
Damn.
Greg (11:30):
But also I think, we often think about and say this in the
sort of the culturalintelligence space, don't we
that just'cause you've got yourpassport's, got a thousand
stamps in it doesn't mean youare necessarily culturally
intelligent because if you'vegone to all of these places
around the world and spent allof your time in the tourist
spots, that ain't helping youvery much.
(11:50):
And we were trying to engagewith locals and go to local sort
of shops or weird museums.
And and.
Just get a feeling for what itwas like for everyday people in
Chiang Mai.
It was cool.
Marsha (12:07):
Yeah.
I think Chiang Mai is certainlybeing in the center of Chiang
Mai, I think it is quite atouristy place, but if you look
properly, you can see real lifeif you like.
Around it.
And really observing her.
People interact with each other.
Thai, local Thai people interactwith each other.
Is really, it's a reallyworthwhile thing to do when you
(12:27):
go traveling.
Not just to stick to, the hoteland the the tourist attractions,
but to really get off the beatentrack and even just some side
streets, you can see real lifedefinitely worthwhile.
Greg (12:42):
Yeah.
So we probably should get alittle bit serious, although
not.
It doesn't have to be Not tooserious.
Totally serious.
Come on, Greg.
Come on.
But I'm really interested tohear about your journey into
cultural intelligence A BBCjournalist in sports, was that
sports all the time or,
Marsha (13:02):
no, it was, it is actually news really.
I fell into sport at a laterpoint, which I'll happily tell
you about.
I mean my, dream as a teenagerwhen I was about sort of 13, 14,
was to work in radio.
I tell the story how ultimatelyit was just because I liked the
sound of my own voice but surelynot, as I actually got my got
(13:25):
going with my career, Irealized, oh, actually this
isn't about me at all.
It's about.
Those unheard voices and how dowe facilitate other people's
stories and give those the bestpossible airing that, that we
can.
And so already you can start tosee how the two, journeys of
journalism and inclusion startto come together.
(13:45):
And when I was at the BBC and Iwas working as a community
journalist, I used to run medialiteracy projects and support
people with, literally, back inthose days it was little MP
three players and little videorecorders and getting people to
record their stories and thentaking the laptop the weighing
laptop that it was in thosedays.
(14:07):
Yeah.
To their community centers andsitting with them and helping
them edit what is it?
How is it that you want thisstory to be told, which is the
bit that you want in, which isyou want out?
And and those stories would thenlive on BBC platforms and it was
really meaningful work and therewas some really rich content
came from that.
But I, this sort of stuff waseasy for me.
(14:28):
I didn't find it, it waschallenging to go into
communities and to to meet.
I was super curious and wantedto explore people's lives that
were very different from my own.
And I learned a lot about reallife that was very diff
literally very different from myown when I was doing that and as
I made my way,'cause I was alsoquite an ambitious person, made
(14:50):
my way up into leadership andmanagement.
Of course I wanted to do more ofthat and trying to decentralize
the news agenda from those whobelieved this is what the top
story should be today, ratherthan actually listening to the
people that were supposed to beserving about what was important
to them.
That was a very difficult sell.
(15:12):
Can you believe it?
Trying to get my colleagues innews to to rethink the agenda
and what should be saying, andcertainly how we should be
saying that.
For example, every so oftenthere would be a monitoring,
diversity monitoring and theteam would know it was coming
and they would do this thingwhere they'd do this really
(15:34):
tokenistic thing where.
Oh no Monitoring's coming upnext week where you need to make
sure we've got like a gay personat breakfast and make sure we
have a disability story inafternoons and make sure we've
got, the Muslim experience indrive time and I hated that.
I absolutely, I would like nono.
(15:57):
Yeah, no.
We, not only should we do bedoing this all the time, but
who, just because someone's aMuslim doesn't mean that we are
just gonna be talking to theabout them, their faith all the
time.
Their business people.
They have opinions about,planning, like what, let's just
incorporate people from theirfrom their own perspective.
Of course.
(16:18):
On in, on every story.
Yeah.
And I couldn't, I dunno why thiswas so difficult to get into
people's heads about not onlyhow straightforward it was, but
just how to really open upgiving this on her voice.
I started looking around.
So why is it that we know weneed to be doing something about
diversity?
(16:39):
And we might even know what wewant those outcomes to look
like, but the how is warped.
It's just we are not doing itright.
Why is it that people just don'tget it in the way that I do?
So that's when I startedsearching and scrambling around
looking for an answer.
And I, that's when I came acrossDavid Livermore's leading with
(17:02):
cultural intelligence.
Oh yeah.
Yep.
And I I ordered that and I readit and I, oh my gosh.
It was like, boom.
Mind blowing, this is it.
This is an excellent framework.
The how we're going to movepeople forward from knowing that
why they want to do thingsthrough to the what they want,
(17:23):
the this to look like.
It's the how we're gonna getthem there.
And I I myself didn't, I tellthis story actually in the
preface of my book, BuildingInclusion that I have never
perceived identity in the sameway as some other people do.
Be grouping people together inthat way.
I've always seen people ashaving multiple identities.
(17:46):
We're all layered in lots ofdifferent ways.
And just because someone looks acertain way doesn't mean they're
gonna behave in a certain way.
And so I never looked atinclusion through the eyes of
identity.
It was always through behaviors,who am I what do I do?
How do I do that?
And inclusion for me is allabout, it's not about other
(18:08):
people and their identities.
It's about us and our behaviors.
And that it's culturalintelligence became a really
clear, how do I do theintrospective piece of work to
support others to be moreinclusive?
And that's how I started usingit.
And I you mentioned the, incluInclusive reporting program that
I did, and I, one of the placesI ended up working was BBC Radio
(18:30):
Leicester, which was just afterthey won the premiership, I'm
afraid.
So I missed that moment.
They, that happened in 2016 andI started in 2017, but they
still riding high when I startedthere.
However, as you can imagine, aplace like Leicester or you may
not know, but Leicester in, inin England in the English.
(18:51):
East Midlands is one of the mostracially diverse places in the
country.
So 50% not white, which isunusual for the UK.
So there are a couple of citiesnow that, that are like that,
but it had massive Indianimmigration East, east African
Indian immigration following thedistress of what happened in
(19:14):
Uganda and in Kenya in, in the1970s.
There were a huge amount ofsettlers and that there is a lot
of racial diversity in Leicesterand that racial diversity was
not reflected either in ourcontent or in our staff.
And there were even some staffmembers who worked in BBC local
(19:35):
radio in Leicester, who hadnever really gone into some of
the Indian communities.
And they were fearful.
They were worried about sayingthe wrong thing and doing the
wrong thing.
And I used the culturalintelligence framework drive
knowledge, strategy, and actionto weave them into how can they
approach their reporting moreinclusively.
(19:57):
So that was a program that I ledand the feedback on that was
incredible.
The the staff saying how muchmore confident they felt and
what they could do differentlyin terms of.
How they were gonna reportdifferently and think
differently about the content.
So that was great.
The sport element actually waswhen I was at BBC Radio Derby,
when I become news and sporteditor.
(20:19):
It was just tagged onto the newsagenda.
And I was working with someincredible people who, just were
passionate but also knew whenthey had to step back from their
love of especially the game.
So here in Derby the mainfootball team is Derby County.
But we also cover Burton Albion.
(20:39):
We, they, not we, that was like10 least and years ago.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, they cover the.
Burton Albion as well as DerbyCounty.
And then there was like cricketand I got to go some to some
incredible games.
When the West Indies were doinga friendly, playing friendly
(20:59):
over talk to Brian Lara that's aTrinidadian.
I'm a Trinidadian, so that'sincredible.
Greg (21:05):
You're just name dropping now because I've seen a photo of
you with Christian Horner.
Yeah.
Oh, yes, that's right.
And Christian Horner didn't lookparticularly happy about having
to have his photo taken, but
Marsha (21:18):
That was, yeah, that was as part of the so the Royal
Academy, this is just a coupleof years ago the Royal Academy
of Engineering after I left theBBC, I just started working
full-time on in Unheard Voice,my own consultancy which is
rooted in cultural intelligence,bringing inclusion to
organizations.
And it is a really long storyhow I ended up doing it but the
(21:41):
Royal Academy of Engineeringhired me to support facilitate
and write with Formula One andthe Formula One teams A DNI
charter.
And of course I don't do thingsby halves.
I was never going to do anythingtokenistic.
And it is rooted in thebehaviors of cultural
intelligence.
How do the behaviors and cultureinform how you deliver the
(22:04):
policies, procedures, andpractices across how you attract
a diversity of people into thesport?
How you treat progress andretain that diversity, how you
create.
Inclusive design, productservices and work with the
supply chain for the sport.
And then how do you engage withusers, customers, fans,
sponsors, partners and otherstakeholders.
(22:27):
Engage with them inclusively.
So those four pillars attract,retain, create, and engage which
are.
I suppose a bit of a signatureof mine.
They're in Building Inclusionare very prominent in the d and
i charter Formula One.
But as part of that wholeprocess it involved a lot of
stakeholder relationshipmanagement, which involved going
to Red Bull, which wasincredible to talk to Christian
(22:50):
Horner about what the charterwas about and what he would be
signing the team up to.
And you go into the thereception of Red Bull and the
place is absolutely festoonedwith thousands, literally
thousands of like trophies,silverware.
It's mind boggling.
(23:10):
Mind boggling.
How many medals?
Trophies.
It's unbelievable.
I didn't show you that picture.
I should, I, I should show youthat sometime.
But it was, and then having it,good sort of 60, 90 minute
conversation where he challengedme and I challenged him back and
and, in November, 2024 all 10teams, formula One and the FIA
(23:33):
signed a commitment todelivering on the principles of
that charter.
Greg (23:39):
For those listeners that aren't Petrolhead Christian
Horner is the team principal atRed Bull Racing and husband to
Jerry Horner ex Spice Girl.
Just a bit of uselessinformation.
Yeah.
For people that are listening.
But he is been in that role for20 years or something, hasn't
he?
He's been around and obviouslymore recently it's been a bit
(23:59):
controversial, but yes, that'sthe story for another podcast.
So safety and I think you've gota little bit of a soft spot for
safety.
We don't need to go into whynecessarily, but I think you've
got a soft spot for safety.
And I guess I'd be interested inyour views on how, if you think
about construction andengineering, safety's obviously
(24:23):
a critical component of thoseenvironments.
What impact does understandingcultural norms have?
On creating good understandingof risk, good management of risk
and team cohesion, which you'vetouched on at various points in
the last five or 10 minutes.
Marsha (24:44):
It's crucial.
It's massive.
I ended up in the builtenvironment a bit by chance, I
had left the BBCs working my ownconsultancy and following the
murder of George Floyd which wejust recently marked, the five
year anniversary of, a lot ofBritish organizations did a bit
(25:05):
of introspective work and foundthemselves wanting in terms of
how they were approaching issuesof racial justice and generally
inclusion.
And the Royal Institute ofBritish Architects was one of
those organizations, and when Isaw their role for the inaugural
director of inclusion, I thoughtit wasn't so much that.
I needed that job.
My consultancy was off to a goodstart, and I knew that I was, I
(25:29):
was busy, but I wanted that joband I wanted that job because I
believe that if I couldinfluence the creation of
inclusive spaces, I couldinfluence the creation of an
inclusive world.
A very no, not ambitious at all.
But fundamentally coming intothe sector opened my eyes to so
(25:50):
many things.
And when I started working inarchitecture and looking at the,
it doesn't work on its ownarchitects obviously work with
the wider sector.
Looking at.
Who was involved who haddecision making opportunity, who
was setting the agenda, who hada chance to thrive.
(26:13):
who was even getting a look intoto work in any of these sectors.
It just wasn't the mix thatrepresented the actual
environment in which everyonelives.
It was any particulardemographic.
And the other thing that, ofcourse the background to, to
the.
The shadow, over the builtenvironment sector was the 2017
(26:35):
fire in in the Grenfell Tower inwhich 72 people lost their
lives.
And with all of these thingscombined safety it was one of
the key facets and thinking whatis it that this sector needs to
do in order to be trulyinclusive of all those who exist
(26:58):
in it let alone work in it.
And I started to look at issuesof ethics, innovation,
sustainability as well asinclusion and and safety was up
there with all of that.
And culture is an underpinningprinciple, culture and behaviors
(27:18):
to how we approach these things.
And if you don't have, anunderstanding of people's
different needs, not only inorder to deliver safety, but to
receive it.
Then, we're going to struggle inbeing able to do it effectively.
Cultural intelligence as abehavioral framework is very
(27:40):
useful to support individualsand organizations with how to
deliver safety culture in aninclusive way.
And currently working with somecolleagues here in the uk around
something called the EquitableSafety Initiative.
And the thinking behind this isif you don't make safety
(28:04):
information or trainingeducation and implementation
inclusive in and of itself, IE.
The right size, PPE instructionsin different languages mindful
of different needs.
For example, how heavy a firedoor is if someone is, using it.
(28:26):
And due to their many years ofwork their arms aren't as strong
as they used to be, or, yeah.
If you're not mindful of thesethings, and actually are you
creating safety in the firstplace?
And the answer is probably no,you are not.
And then so then.
Are you being an eff effectivehealth and safety professional?
(28:48):
And then are you being effectivein the outcomes that you want to
create in the world?
It's key.
It's key.
Obviously all of these thingsare very multifaceted and you
have to look at them throughthat overarching perspective and
underpinning principle ofinclusion.
But if you apply it across thosefour pillars, how you attract
people to the health and safetyprofessions, how you treat
(29:10):
progress and retain thosepeople.
Then how you are creating healthand safety outputs in terms of
that, products, those servicesthe impact and then how you are
engaging with the users and avariety of users, customers,
clients, communities.
Then you have an overarchingperspective and underpinning
principle to safety.
(29:32):
That will be far more inclusive,but it has to be informed by the
better culture and behaviorsthat can be informed, again, by
the cultural intelligenceframework.
Greg (29:42):
I guess it's not all on the safety guy though, is it?
It's a, it's an inclusive, touse that word process, that has
to include the designers and thearchitects and the engineers and
the development companies andthe landowners and all of that
sort of stuff.
Marsha (29:56):
Yes.
And I think really importantlyon that point is, everyone on
that scale recognizing thatthere are other people who have
expertise that is worthlistening to.
One of the things I discoveredabout architects is that they
can be incredibly egoistical andbelieve that they hold the whole
(30:18):
they need to know everything anddo everything and aren't always
particularly collaborative, theyreally believe in their own
self-worth, which is fine.
But recognizing where that endsand where other people's begins
would be really important forthe architecture profession in
particular, to let go of some ofthat ego.
(30:38):
So that design could be donebetter.
Greg (30:41):
I believe there's an organization here in New
Zealand, I dunno a lot aboutthem called the Diversity
Agenda, who works specificallywith engineers and architects
around issues of diversity aswell.
It's, a, I guess a bit of amovement.
And so your book.
It was only released like acouple of months ago.
Have you written a book, Marsha?
I
Marsha (31:00):
have you not heard Greg?
I've written a book.
It's called Building Inclusion.
Yes.
You take every possibleopportunity to talk about it.
The book was published,actually.
I can't believe it.
How long ago it was actuallypublished.
Official date of publication wasthe 30th of August.
There was a bit of hiccup withpublication, and so it was
(31:22):
actually available for people onthe 12th of September last year,
2024.
And it is a practical guide ofhow to deliver on the behaviors
and the culture.
And the policies, procedures andpractices across how you
attract, retain, create, andengage for the whole of the
(31:45):
built environment.
But it is a little bit morebroad than that because I,
myself, I'm not an architect,not a planner.
I'm, I'm formerly a journalistand so what I say to people is
that I'm not gonna tell anyonehow to do what they do.
I just give them a new lens sothat they can do it more
inclusively, because ourbehaviors are human and our
(32:07):
organizations are run by humans,and our systems are human made.
And so when humans input moreinclusively then the outputs are
more inclusive and can beconsciously inclusive.
And so what I say the book isabout is if we're not
consciously building inclusioninto our world, then we are
unconsciously building inexclusion.
(32:28):
And so the book is to helppeople to be conscious and
intentional about how to buildinclusion into our world.
And yeah, starts with thatbehavioral piece.
It's all about understandingbias, why we.
Why we are biased and how thecultural intelligence framework
can help.
Some conversational frameworksto support with those necessary
(32:49):
conversations.
We need to have.
How to say no, how to deal withthings called microaggressions,
where those small snobs andpaper cuts if you like, that
people who are discriminated canagainst, can face.
Regularly how to deal withthose.
And then going on to some ofthose policies, procedures, and
practices.
Some are considered to be HRpolicies and then some are
(33:12):
organizational ones.
And then.
How design can be done,inclusively, resources available
to help people with that.
And then supply chain inclusiveapproaches to procurement.
And then engagement, how to workwith people externally and
challenge as well, your clients,even around how they can be more
inclusive and what can happenand the benefits that.
(33:35):
That happen when you do, and thedisasters when you don't.
And the case studies people whoare actually doing this stuff
well and what you can learn fromthem and take that away.
And after each case study, I'veused the cultural intelligence
framework to do what I call abehavioral analysis or because
every case study may feel like Idon't work in that sector, so
how is that case study relevantto me?
(33:55):
But what the behavioral analysisdoes is it asks a few key
questions that you can, thatcase study prompt.
To help you as an individual andas an organization to think how
can I do inclusive recruitment?
Oh I don't work in thisparticular sector, but these are
the kinds of questions I can askaround drive, knowledge,
strategy, and action.
Therefore capabilities ofcultural intelligence so that I
(34:18):
can look to do this thing moreinclusively myself.
It's a great book everyone.
Greg (34:24):
We can put a link to it in the yes.
In the transcript.
Yeah.
Marsha (34:28):
Thank you so much.
Greg (34:30):
Excellent.
And I can't believe that timehas has flown past.
I wanna put one, I guessquestion or ask you for one more
bit of feedback.
Put yourself in the shoes of ahealth and safety professional.
Is there a couple of reallypractical things, either from
your book or just from your ownknowledge around what safety
(34:54):
professionals can do to enhancetheir own cultural intelligence
to be able to better serve thediversity of workplaces that
they no doubt work in?
Wherever in the world they mightbe.
Marsha (35:08):
Yeah.
Couple of things that the firstthing I'd say is that those
working in health and safety doso because you really believe in
what you do.
You want to keep people safe.
And so I would challenge you touse that motivation that you
have to keep people safe torecognize who you are not
keeping safe.
So just in the first instance,make a list of, I don't know,
(35:31):
the top 25 people that you workwith and then start to examine
what are the influences that youhave in your own life that you
are thinking about.
And recognize where the gaps arein, in that list, what
demographics aren't involved,and then seek to fill those gaps
(35:53):
around a different demographicneeds because there, this is
where demographics is important.
Because different livingexperiences have different
impacts in the world andtherefore need to be catered for
in particular ways.
And where you feel that youcan't keep people safe because
of course you can't cater forthe tallest person and the
(36:15):
shortest person necessarily.
Make sure that you have somekind of provision in place, be
it some kind of.
Know, what mitigation you needto, depending on the context to
make sure that those people knowthat you've thought about them.
So that's just a couple ofthings.
And then you'll see that onceyou start to to, to peel back
(36:38):
those layers that you just get,become a better health and
safety professional as a result.
Greg (36:44):
Right back to the, when you first started talking about
that and the first thing thatcame to my mind was a rhetorical
question that somebody raisedduring a presentation I was at
six months ago, and it was Whatpercentage of your employees put
your yourself in a leadershiprole or a health and safety
role, whatever.
What percentage of youremployees is it okay to not
(37:07):
communicate with effectively?
Now we know what the answershould be.
But then if you then go andthink about the people that you
work with, what's the reality ofthat situation in terms of that
question?
How, what, who's missing out, toyour company name, who are the
unheard voices that, that arenot being heard?
(37:30):
Because.
Maybe you've got some blinkerson and either don't see them or
haven't considered some of thethings that you've talked about.
Yeah.
Interesting.
It was just, it was a question.
Great question.
It was, and I'll tell you whatthe subject matter was,
neurodiversity which, if we, Iguess if we think about cultural
intelligence.
(37:51):
It's an invisible aspect ofdifference.
You can't tell if somebody'sdyslexic or a ADHD or whatever
it might be.
And yeah, I thought it was a,just a really very thought
provoking question.
Marsha (38:05):
Very thought provoking.
Such a good question.
I think I might steal that one.
Coming up to a workshop nearyou.
Greg (38:16):
Hey, Marsha I when I came, I was thinking about this
podcast, I thought, oh yeah,we're gonna, we are gonna talk
about architecture and buildinginclusion and we did a little
bit of that.
But it's been a blast which Iprobably should have expected.
Of course.
Always
Marsha (38:32):
good to talk to you, Greg.
Thank you so much for thisinvitation, and I really hope
that your your good listener isI is inspired to go and to have
a look of not only a culturalintelligence and building
inclusion, but their ownbehaviors.
Because although thatintrospective piece of work can
be uncomfortable, when you leaninto that discomfort and learn
(38:54):
and grow, it's such a powerfultool to support inclusion for
others.
Nice.
Greg (39:00):
Nice.
What a great way to end.
Thanks so much for your time andit's time for your what, second
or third cup of tea of themorning.
Although that's trying to fifthcoffee.
Marsha (39:10):
That's what, there you go.
I'm wired ready for the day.
Greg (39:13):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Cool.
Hey, thanks for your time,Marsha.
Marsha (39:17):
Take it easy.
Thanks so much.
Greg (39:22):
What a conversation Marsha always manages to include
seriousness, professionalism,and fun into every conversation
she has.
Before we wrap this episode,let's reflect on a few key
takeaways from my conversationwith Marsha.
Inclusion starts with behavior,not identity.
(39:46):
Marsha emphasized that trueinclusion isn't about
categorizing others, It is moreabout emphasizing our own
behaviors.
This teaches us to start withintrospection to build more
inclusive environments.
Next, we talked about culturalintelligence being the how of
(40:08):
inclusion.
Through the culturalintelligence framework, Marsha
showed us how behaviors can beintentionally shaped to drive
better outcomes in diversity andsafety.
CQ really does bridge the gapbetween intent and impact.
(40:28):
Our third takeaway, safetywithout inclusion isn't really
safe, from PPE Fit to fire Dooraccessibility, Marsha unpacked
how exclusionary design canundermine safety efforts.
In short, if your safetypractices aren't inclusive,
(40:49):
they're not effective.
Next, we talked aboutstorytelling as a tool for
change and drawing from herjournalism career.
Marsha shared how tellingunheard stories can shift
perspectives and reshapeorganizational culture.
Giving voice to the unheard ishow empathy and change begins.
(41:14):
And finally.
Designing for inclusion equalsdesigning for everyone.
Whether in architecture orpolicy, inclusive design
benefits more than just themarginalized groups, it creates
better systems for all.
Meaning inclusion is not just anice to have, it's a design
(41:37):
principle for progress.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
(41:59):
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
(42:21):
Ma te wa..
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