January 20, 2025 • 46 mins
The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional is back for season 2 with a great line up of guests from New Zealand and around the world. In episode 1 we talk again to crowd favourite Jodhi Warwick Ponga about enhancing cultural intelligence through a Māori lens.
Our conversation focused on how individual leadership and behavior can promote cultural intelligence within an organization. As we know, leadership is a series of moments where individuals demonstrate cultural intelligence, which can influence others and create a movement.
We talked about the development of cultural intelligence among safety professionals and emphasized the significance of cultural intelligence as a learnable skill, and how this can be facilitated through the use of the self-reflective assessment tool, ko au te ao, created by Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa. You can find out more about this by visiting the following link
https://www.trma.co.nz/ko-au-te-ao.
I have distilled our conversation into 5 Key Points, first:
1. Cultural Intelligence is a Learnable Skill: which can be developed and improved through self-assessment, reflective practices, and active participation in cultural experiences.
2. The Self-Reflective Assessment Tool: developed by TRMR which is based on the Haumaru Tangata framework can help individuals and organizations enhance their cultural intelligence.
3. The goal of the tool is to empower individual health and safety representatives to become cultural catalysts within their organizations, driving change through their own personal growth and influence.
4. Encouraging whānau participation in the workplace, expanding cultural competency training, fostering partnerships with Māori organizations, and embedding cultural values into policies are essential steps for cultural integration.
5. Participating in cultural activities and being curious about colleagues' traditions, and pushing through anxieties when engaging in new cultural experiences can lead to valuable learning and growth.
#connection #engagement #value #culturalintelligence
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:01):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:42):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:06):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
Ok team, you've heard from herbefore and she's back on the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional podcast to share
some stories about what she'sbeen up to since we last spoke.
Jodhi Warwick-Ponga, trustee ofTRMR and head of all sorts of
(01:26):
cool things at VerticalHorizons.
Welcome back e hoa, wonderful tohave you on the show again.
Jodhi (01:32):
Well kia ora Greg, tēnā koe mea ngā kai whakarongo
katoa.
So that means greetings to youand to all the listeners out
there, it's really exciting tobe back.
Greg (01:41):
Kia ora.
Yeah, awesome.
So, last time we spoke, it wasthe last episode of season one
of, the podcast.
What sort of wonderful mahi haveyou been up to since then?
Jodhi (01:55):
Quite a bit actually, but, just by way of
introductions, because I knowlast time we spoke I was like,
Oh, I forgot to do a mihi, and Iforgot to share my pēpeha.
So I thought this time aroundI'm not going to miss this
opportunity.
So I'm going to jump into it andjust share a little bit about
the traditional way ofintroducing ourselves, within a
Māori context.
So I'll share that with you.
(02:16):
So ko Takitimu te waka, koAorangi te maunga koro Mahanga
te awa, ko Ngāti Kahungunu kiWairarapa tōku iwi, ko Jodhi
Warwick Ponga ahau.
So briefly what I shared thenwas about my waka or the canoe
that my whānau came on, whichwas Takitimu.
And I also spoke about myancestral mountain, which is
Aorangi, which is in the SouthIsland.
(02:38):
And also Ruamahanga, which Ispoke about then is the, the awa
or the waters that I, affiliateto.
And my iwi or my tribe that Ibelong to is Ngāti Kahungunu ki
Wairarapa.
So that's that's just a formalway of introducing your pepeha,
and it's a lovely way to startconnecting with your audience as
(03:00):
well.
So, I wanted to reiterate thoughthat I'm a learner of all of
cultural intelligence, culturaleverything, I'm still on a
journey, and my te reo as well,it's a journey.
Something that I hope that willnever end, but it's, every day
is a learning day for me.
But yeah, what have I been up tothese last, oh, couple of
(03:23):
months, maybe a little bit more?
A lot.
One of the things that we've hadthe opportunity to do since we
last caught up was that mycolleague Moira Loach and I, we
spoke at HASANZ, which is theNew Zealand Health and Safety
Association.
For all health and safetyprofessionals and that was
pretty exciting.
Greg (03:41):
Outstanding presentation.
Jodhi (03:42):
Yeah, actually it was with, so Moira and I presented
lots.
That particular, conferencethough was with Benji Hemi, and
I'd like to think that it was agreat opportunity for us to get
out there and share more aboutour framework, Haumaru Tangata,
and also a little bit more aboutbeing culturally responsive in
the workplace.
And also bring that, tie thatall together about how it also
(04:05):
works within our own homes andin our own communities.
We've done some more work with,the Government Health and Safety
Lead, where we've, tried tointroduce a new self-assessment
or a new self-reflective tool.
The working title is a workingtitle.
I still haven't come up withlike a, a full new name for it.
(04:29):
I'm calling it though,Whakatōkia Ngā Kākano Mō Te
Oranga, meaning, the literaltranslation is that we plant the
seeds for well-being.
The intent again was about self-reflection, and then it's the
opportunity for health andsafety professionals and
practitioners, but more so forhealth and safety reps, to
(04:52):
actually reflect on their ownpractices in regards to the
Haumaru Tangata framework.
And then to potentially supportand understand how, how they can
perhaps change some of theiractivities or, or understand the
impacts that their currentpractices have, but then
(05:15):
understanding that there areways that they can slightly
change some of their practicesto improve and to have that more
holistic approach in their rolesas reps, practitioners and
professionals.
Greg (05:26):
Nice.
Well, so much in there.
I want to go back to your pepehaand, just comment that, maybe
it's, it's why we have managedto connect so well is that I was
brought up in Wairarapa.
So we've got that, connection.
And as you say, that's the wholepoint of the thing, right?
Is to, is to create connectionbetween whoever it is you're,
(05:46):
you're engaging with and,talking with.
So that was cool.
Thank you.
The presentation, at HASANZ.
One of the things I rememberwas, actually when you guys
weren't on stage, and somebodyposed a question to the WorkSafe
representative and, and thediscussion got a little bit
heated.
And right at the end, Ben stoodup and from the audience and
(06:09):
sort of just tried to, I guess,calm the room and just, you
know, reflect on the fact that achallenging conversation had
been had, and, that, that wasended now, and we should all go
back to sort of being, normal, Isuppose, and, I thought that was
a really telling moment aboutreflecting Māori culture and how
(06:29):
that, he was able to displaythat, in that particular,
moment, which I thought was, wasquite, well done.
Jodhi (06:35):
I might, I might touch on that slightly too in a moment,
if you like, just to talk...
Audio Only - All Particip (06:40):
Yeah.
Jodhi (06:41):
In New Zealand, well, New Zealand Māori, when we move into
a, or we visit a marae, we'rewelcomed on in a process called
a Pōwhiri so that process is awelcome.
There's lots of backgroundbehind it, but it's to welcome
people into this new space.
There's actually a space whereyou're, where you wait outside
(07:05):
and then you're called on by akaranga.
And then as you walk towards themarae, there's this space in
between a, I hope I'm getting itright, it's called a wātea.
So just in that space betweenthere and the marae is, this
kind of open space.
And it's in that space where allthe challenges occur.
(07:26):
So what Benji and I, more soBenji, I'm going to be real,
I've got to do a really, I'vegot to acknowledge Benji for his
intelligence and hisresponsiveness in this, because
Benji recognised that we're in aspace where it was challenging.
And without a doubt, there was alot of passion that was flowing
(07:49):
and it was interesting watchingit because it was flowing on the
screen.
So what Benji did was, and Irecognize it only now, is
that...
In that space when there ischallenging times, that's the
only space where you canchallenge.
But then as you, the karangafinishes off and you move closer
into the marae part, there isthat moment there where you self
(08:12):
-reflect before you enter intothe marae and you take off your
shoes.
And there's just this last onepart of the karanga and that
means that there is no morechallenges that to occur and we
come in peace.
So what Benji was doing here wasactually, he was using that
lullaby, which he actually sang.
(08:34):
He sang a lullaby to say thatthe challenge is now over.
Now we come in peace.
So, if we, if we can behave likethat, it can actually, help to
reduce a lot of the conflictthat we experience, knowing that
there's a time and a place forus to challenge, to, there's a,
(08:57):
the God of War in that, Atiaarea, and that there's a time
and a place.
But then, at the end of it, weneed to bring us back into that
time of peace, harmony, and toknow that this now ends.
And I think that'll be good forus, just in terms of for us as,
(09:18):
culturally intelligent people orpractitioners.
Anyway.
Greg (09:23):
It was just a telling moment, and I thought it was, it
was a memorable moment, probablymore memorable than most other
things that happened at the, atthe conference was just that,
was, yeah, was, I just,something that stuck with me
anyway.
And the last thing youmentioned, and I just want to
reflect on this, you talkedabout how people can think about
(09:44):
and develop their culturalintelligence and, and, you know,
going through this, thisassessment process for health
and safety reps.
And that's absolutely true interms of.
You know, cultural intelligenceis a capability or a skill that
can be learnt.
You know, unlike other things,you know, maybe that's it
around, around this where, youknow, it is what it is.
(10:07):
CQ is something that, you can,you can create a map of, of
where your own culturalintelligence sits today and it
can identify.
progress that you can make to bemore culturally intelligent,
down the road.
So, so yeah, just really keento, dive into, into this
(10:27):
assessment, that you'vedeveloped.
And, you know, it's all verywell for me to sit here and tell
people they need to be moreculturally intelligent, but, but
you and the team at TRMR arereally kicking goals and coming
up with, with the how-to.
So tell me about this resource.
Jodhi (10:43):
I guess to step back and to say, give some context about
how it was created or why it wascreated, is that we created
kōteao, which I believe I spokeabout last time.
And kōrote ao kōtea ko au is aself-reflective tool that was
created for organisations basedon the Haumaru Tangata
framework.
(11:04):
And we introduced it at our 2023conference.
And the intent was to, to reallyenable or allow the opportunity
for those who are present.
To actually review theirorganizations against the
Haumaru Tangata framework and tounderstand what their strengths
were and what they were doingwell within the rau and the ara
(11:28):
and those foundationalprinciples and focus areas.
And then to, to give them aroadmap so they could create
their own roadmap about wherethere were gaps within their own
organization, and how they couldfill those gaps.
And it was actually a reallyamazing way we thought was going
to be, help us to understand thegaps within the, those who were
the participants, and then wecould create resources around
(11:50):
that.
So, just this past, past yearand after the conference, we
received funding from ACC toroll this out, this quote here,
the self-reflective assessment,to roll it out to 30
organizations, which we did.
And.
We finally presented that reportjust last week to ACC, which was
really, it was great.
(12:12):
But one of the things that welearned from doing and going and
speaking with these 30organizations and the
individuals within theorganizations was that it was
great to have this self-assessment tool based on how
your organization is performing.
But really what we saw was theorganizations.
just couldn't actually make thechange.
(12:33):
They were, essentially, therewere individuals who could do
the self-reflective,assessments, but they didn't
actually have the power to makethat cultural change across the
entire organisation.
So they were, and i when you'regoing through a process like
this and you get really excitedand, like, yes we can do this
(12:54):
and this and you find out allthe recommendations that the
organisation can, do.
but then as a person who's doingthis, finding that you have so
many barriers that stop you fromputting those recommendations in
place, it's really hard.
Because one person can't changean entire organisation.
So one self-assessment can'tchange an entire organisation.
(13:16):
So looking back on it when wewere reviewing all of those 30
organisations, we realised that,hey, It feels kind of
disempowering when you're inthat situation as the individual
who's being self-reflective foran organization as a whole.
Instead, why don't we assist theindividual health and safety
rep, the individual health andsafety manager or advisor, to
(13:40):
change their practices?
Not the organization's practicesas a whole.
So we thought about that and wethought why not do this with
health and safety reps.
So, in New Zealand we have likefor every 20 people within a
working group.
There is a, a legislativerequirement to have one health
and safety rep within that 20.
And so we thought, hmm, if thereare a hundred in an organization
(14:02):
that's five people whopotentially have the ability to
then go out and influence withintheir own working group, So, we
took Haumaru Tangata once again,and we looked at ways in which
we could ask questions forindividual practitioners, health
and safety reps, and createquestions so that they could,
(14:24):
self-reflect on their ownpractices, and then to provide
them with a report, apersonalised report, for how
they can change their individualpractice.
Now, That is not scalable in anyway.
If you have like 7,000, it was,oh, it was even hard because our
first kōteao, our first self-reflective assessment, it was a
(14:45):
spreadsheet.
It was an Excel spreadsheet.
It was clunky.
You couldn't get data backstraight away, it was so
painful.
But you know we work on thesmell of an oily rag and that's
what we had access to, so that'swhy we used that Excel
spreadsheet.
And we audited, not audited, butwe supported the assessment of
(15:07):
those 30 organizations withinExcel spreadsheet.
This time around, unknowingabout how many numbers we might
have, we've actually now put itinto a form.
It's still not perfect, it's aMicrosoft form, but what it does
is it enables us to get all thisdata back in real time and also
to, to allow people to, to dothis individually, and it's a
(15:33):
scalable model at the moment.
We've also created in behind aChat GPT, so it's an individual
GPT and we've thrown in a wholelot of info and all our
resources into this GPT and itcan shoot out a report at the
end of it, which is what youexperience when you filled in
yours.
So that's, that is the intentbehind it.
(15:55):
Obviously, though, with any AI,you still have to read every
report, but in regards to this,Why we have done this is because
we know that organisations takefar too long to, it's like
turning an ocean liner on adime.
It takes too long for theorganisation to, to change for
(16:15):
its people who want the changeto occur quickly.
But those people who wantchange, Things to change
quickly.
They can only change withintheir own individual practices,
and then they can only influencewithin their, their working
group.
So the intent of our newWhakatōkia Ngā Kākano me te
(16:36):
Oranga, the self-reflection, isto change, to support the
individual to grow and develop,and then in turn influence those
within their own space.
And that's why we did it thatway.
It's
Audio Only - All Participants (16:51):
a new development tool, right?
Jodhi (16:53):
Yeah, it's a new development tool, definitely.
Greg (16:57):
And it's, it's, it's helping, individuals become
cultural catalysts, in theirorganisation, through a little
bit of introspective reflection.
And, and I think what you'vetalked about really is sowing
the seeds of, of creatingleaders, right?
Because if I'm changing mybehaviour.
(17:17):
Ledership over time.
Leadership's about moments.
Leadership is is about how Ibehave in the moment, that, in a
way that shows leadership toothers.
And if I start as one personwho's, who's starting to promote
more, cultural intelligencepersonally, and then my, my mate
(17:38):
picks up on that and does thesame thing, and then all of the
health and safety reps do thesame thing, all of a sudden and
you've got a bit of a leadershipmovement, and maybe...
The leadership of theorganisation will go, Hey, look
at this, what's happening overhere.
This is pretty cool.
Let's see what we can do tosupport that and, and maybe roll
it out to the rest of theorganisation or, you know, help
(17:59):
everybody else become more awareof, of some of these things.
So I think that's, is that sortof how you'd see it?
Jodhi (18:06):
Yeah, it's a socialisation, so it's about
socialising and normalisingthese practices.
And without having the need toimplement, so, without having
the need to implement likeformalized processes and
policies, it becomes part ofwhat's normal behavior.,
Greg (18:24):
Yeah absolutely.
So you do the assessment, andyou get a report, and so I've
got my report here.
And I just wanted to go through,for those that are listening,
just some of the high levelthings that the report says, and
then maybe you can just dig alittle bit deeper into, into
that stuff.
My report, gives me some ngāmahi e te wāhi ake, which is
(18:48):
practical steps to implementchange, and says I could look
into whakatipu iti oranga, whichis about enhancing well-being at
my workplace through encouragingwhānau participation and
embedding tikanga into healthand safety processes.
It says I can focus onwhakamohio and whakahoki
(19:10):
matauranga which is aboutbuilding knowledge and
capability through expanding mycultural competency training and
also creating feedback channelsand I thought that was quite an
interesting one when we startdigging into what sits behind
that.
And I can look at ngā hōngongaMotuhaki, so that's about
holistic integration andfostering partnerships with
(19:32):
Māori organisations.
And also highlighting Māorileadership.
And finally it talked about, tewhakau i te tēkanga, which is
about, embedding cultural valuesinto policies and promoting
success stories.
So that was the suite ofrecommendations, and then
sitting below all of that was abunch of practical actions, I
(19:53):
suppose.
Do you want to just talk throughsome of that recommendation
stuff and, and, and how that allcomes together?
Jodhi (20:00):
You know, yeah, no, that's absolutely fine.
What I, one thing about, Iremember your particular, your
particular self-reflectionsthrough your assessment.
You're in a unique position inthat you have this podcast, you
have gone through a lot ofeffort to learn more about Māori
culture and be culturallyresponsive across all cultures
(20:23):
as well.
If it was someone who was not atyour level, some of the basic
things that the recommendationsthat may have come out would be
like, you know, why not showcuriosity about asking your
colleagues about their culturaltraditions or about their
holidays?
What are they celebrating?
I know that here in the office,at Vertical Horizons recently we
(20:46):
had a colleague and it's It wasDiwali and he shared with us
food, kai, and he also broughtin some of the clothing that
they wear, some of theirtraditional clothing.
And then he did a short, a shortlittle brief about what the
cultural significance of Diwaliwas for him and his family.
(21:06):
And then there was thisopportunity for us to actually
ask questions, to talk moreabout it.
So for those who are learning tounderstand a little bit more and
wanting to grow in theircultural understanding and
cultural awareness, it startswith some of those foundational
things.
Show curiosity about yourcolleagues.
You can participate in culturalawareness workshops and read.
(21:30):
There's so much available out onthe internet at the moment about
cultural awareness.
And participate in informalcultural celebrations.
So, once a year we have Matarikihere in New Zealand.
We also have, Te Wiki o te Reo.
So Matariki is, it's, it's theMāori New Year.
It's a time for reflection, alsosetting goals.
And then we also have Te Wiki oTe Reo Māori, which is Māori
(21:54):
Language Week.
So celebrating those, those arereally foundational things.
Other things we can do is, ifwe're already doing those
things, the next thing we canactually do, if we want to
stretch a little bit further, iswe can volunteer and be part of
creating and planning thoseevents.
So if there's a special Matarikior Te Wiki or Te Reo Māori, be
(22:18):
part of actually doing somethingwithin your office or within
your workplace or where you haveinfluence to bring an element of
those cultural celebrations orDiwali.
We also have things, you know,when you, when you go somewhere,
really extend yourself and gointo the community and visit
areas.
(22:38):
So for me, I know I, I just wentto Australia, but one thing I
make a point of, and recentlywhen I was in Australia with my
daughters is we made a point ofvisiting a different areas where
there are definite, differentethnicities.
So going into theirsupermarkets, going into their
(23:00):
markets and hearing the variouslanguage around you and the
culture, eating the differentfoods, watching the way in which
they engage with one another,those all increase your, your
cultural understanding and yourcultural awareness.
But it doesn't mean that youhave to travel overseas.
You can do that in differentregions and different areas
(23:20):
within your own country and whathave you.
So that's one of the things thatI find a value is anywhere I go.
I'm like, let's go check outtheir markets and see what
they're like.
And then if you wanted to extenda little bit further from that,
the next step that you as anindividual can do is you can
start Being a mentor and a coachto your team members and really
(23:42):
supporting them to help them tounderstand how they can can work
confidently within the culturethat you have, and to share
those interactions and how bestto, how they can navigate
through them.
And then, stretching a littlebit further, is start advocating
for organisational policies andprocedures that prioritise,
(24:03):
those cross-cultural learningopportunities, where your
organisation may not havecultural awareness workshops.
Why not, if you have stretchedto the point where you want to
do a little bit more, startadvocating for the opportunities
where you can ask for those tobe provided to yourself and
staff members.
But your report though, In termsof for the layout, very generic
(24:27):
in terms, for its layout, wegave like feedback, it talks
about the feedback that you gaveto us.
And then we essentiallyregurgitate it back to you,
acknowledge what you have said,and then provide some
understandings about how you,how you can improve.
So, some of those actions thatwe spoke about was about
(24:48):
whakatipu i te oranga, soenhancing the well-being.
And that's not only your ownwell-being, but also enhancing
the well-being of those aroundyou.
So one of the recommendationsthat we suggested was that you
encourage whānau participation.
So within your space, We oftenforget that whānau is a
significant part of manycultures, or family is a, many
(25:10):
cultures, they value family, soit's about ensuring that we, we
allow that space for family tocome and to participate in
discussions about health andsafety.
I think about my own son in thejourney, well one of my, one of
my sons, my twins.
And our son, he had a workplaceinjury and it was quite
(25:34):
considerable where he couldn'treturn to work for six weeks.
Thankfully it was more to dowith his shoulder and the nature
of the work, being that helifted a lot.
It was heavy steel on hisshoulder.
But what it, what I recognizedwas left out in his return to
work plan was that there was noopportunity for his family to be
(25:54):
involved in that.
There was no opportunity for hisfamily to participate in the
investigation for how the injuryoccurred.
So, being his mother and going alittle bit mama bear, I injected
myself into that.
So, and it was the first timeI'd ever had that experience
(26:16):
where whānau were involved inthe investigation and were able
to provide, and the whānaudirectly provided feedback to
the health and safety manager,and it was the first time also
that had whānau involved in thereturn to work plan, and it was
more so that they couldunderstand the impact of This
(26:37):
return to work plan to ensurethat it took a holistic approach
to ensuring that Mason's manawhen he returned back to work
was, whilst it was diminishedbecause of that workplace
injury, that there was stillmana for him for when he
returned and he could still,through his acts and
contributions, while it wasn'this same job, he was still able
(26:58):
to support the workplace inother areas with light duties.
So it was a, still a manaenhancing opportunity.
Greg (27:05):
Thats an interesting point, because I remember
reading recently, and I think itwas off the back of a forestry
fatality or something, where thewhānau had been able to get into
the workplace and, maybe they'dbeen interviewed later, or there
was some sort of media attentionabout it, and hadn't really
realised the type of work thattheir family member was actually
(27:28):
doing, and so it was, you know,it was a bit of an eye opener
for them in terms of theenvironment that they were
working in, and so yeah, I guessout of that, just came that
increased knowledge andunderstanding, of, what was
going on at the time.
Jodhi (27:43):
We must have been reading the same article.
I think one of the things thatwas really prevalent or, really
interesting Most family don'tunderstand the work that you do.
Sometimes, and I know especiallywhen I was a lot younger, we
used to try and separate workfrom home.
(28:04):
But the reality is, is that workand home, they actually work
together.
Because what you bring fromhome, You bring to your work and
you also, whether you like it ornot, a lot of the behaviours and
attitudes and things and thosecultural values, you also have
them within your workplace too,be it maybe a different kind of
(28:26):
culture, but those shared valuesand beliefs, you also bring them
home and they shape Your homelife as well.
So with that particular, study,I remember thinking and my one
of my colleagues, Moira, sheshared in ACC when we were
presenting to them, she talkedto them about, You know, what's
(28:48):
stopping us from having whanaudays?
Those days where we come in andwe can talk about the work that
we do, the machinery that we do,why it's so important for
actually dad to make sure, dador mum, to make sure that
they're hydrated because theirwork involves being outdoors.
There's a reason why they takeso much, such a big lunch to
work.
(29:08):
Because they burn a lot of, thatenergy off and they need to have
something sustaining for thewhole time.
There's a reason why a mum anddad need to actually be in bed
early and can't stay up late.
And then, but also the whānaucan then come back and see
what's happening, why they, theyreally do need to actually look
(29:29):
after themselves holistic,holistically at home and also
work.
But the whānau can see, thewhānau can actually see their
work environment, can see the,the, the tasks that are
performed, but in turn, theworkplace then also can see the
whānau and know that thisindividual doesn't come to work
by themselves.
(29:50):
There's a whole community inbehind that they are supporting
and they have to continue tostay healthy for that whānau as
well.
So it's a, it's a, it's a win-win situation for both the
whānau and the workplace.
But again, that, that is, bydoing that takes a lot of
(30:13):
emotional and culturalintelligence to do those sort of
activities.
Greg (30:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
So we're sort of moving towardsthe end, but I just do want to
pick up on a couple of points.
Firstly, you talked about goingto Australia and getting out
into different markets andplaces.
And one of the things that theytalk about in cultural
intelligence is the concept ofinternational travel.
And, and maybe myth-busting thatinternational travel on its own
(30:43):
doesn't mean you're going to bemore culturally intelligent.
What you need to do and whatyou've reflected a little bit
is, is actually getting awayfrom the touristy areas.
Now going to the tourist hotspotis not going to make you
culturally intelligent, butgoing out to a community, you
talked about a community sort ofsupermarket type scenario,
(31:06):
getting into the everyday livesof, of the people that live in
that place, is, is where thecultural intelligence comes
from.
So that's, that's sort of, Iguess, a bit of a myth buster
that just because yourpassport's full doesn't mean
that, doesn't mean you'renecessarily going to be
culturally intelligent.
I just wanted to finally finishon a couple of, just a couple of
(31:29):
examples, I suppose, of somestuff that I've recently done to
enhance my, my culturalintelligence, both related to,
to te ao Māori.
And the first one, whicheverybody in New Zealand had the
opportunity to do, and I'm suremany did, was watch the
tangihanga for the Kingitangaand, and just, just be curious
(31:55):
about why certain thingshappened the way they happened.
You know, buried in an unmarkedgrave on top of a hill.
And the reasons for that sort ofthing.
And, and, all of the, the, therewas reasons and, and I guess
cultural, norms as to whycertain things happened along
that, I don't know how long itwas, several hour process from
(32:17):
when he left the marae to whenhe got to the top of the, of the
mountain.
So that was, that was, yeah, asI say, a part of enhancing my,
my own CQ.
Recently I've become involved inthe local community here
developing a communitydevelopment plan.
(32:37):
We've never had one.
And the first meeting was.
At the local marae.
So we, you know, we, we wentthrough that, that welcome
process, with the karanga and,and walking through, into the
marae and, and having, in fact,we actually had the meeting out,
is it the ātea out in the, outfront of the marae, and then
(32:58):
went, or had the speeches,sorry, outside, and then went
into, into the, to one of theother rooms and had a bit more
of a formal sort of meeting andsome kai, and went through that
process.
And I don't, I don't know howmany opportunities, you know,
Pākehā New Zealanders get to dothat, but it's, it's pretty
cool, to, to experience that.
(33:20):
So, yeah, just a couple ofthings that I've done recently
to, that, that have.
contributed to my understandingand knowledge around some of
that stuff.
Jodhi (33:28):
How did you feel?
I'm going to throw the questionback at you.
How did you feel during thatprocess and then afterwards
connected?
Greg (33:36):
One of the things, and it's interesting, I've got a
longer story I could tell aboutKoha.
And, but in this case, you know,this meeting had been organized
by the council, and I guess incollaboration with the, with the
local iwi.
And, I thought, oh, I wonder ifwe need to take koha.
Now, surely the council'sorganized something along that
way.
(33:57):
And just before we went in, youknow, somebody stood up and
said, You know, anybody got akoha for the marae?
And I mean, I'm a cashlessperson, so I wasn't able to do
anything.
But now I know, I know a lotmore about the process around
koha.
And, and so I learned somestuff.
(34:17):
I think there was a lot ofrespect, Both ways, to the
manuhieri from the tangatawhenua.
And and equally, you know,respect for being invited into
that place.
There was a couple of people inthe group who probably were a
(34:38):
little bit ignorant about someof the processes.
And and you know, had to have aquiet word said to them, you
know, before we entered.
I mean, I had been on a maraeseveral years ago as part of my
leadership, masters and, and,you know, was just watched the
whole process around the foodpreparation, and, and how all of
(35:01):
that works.
And then to see it over severalweeks as part of the tangihanga,
you know, and obviously that wasthousands of people rather than
about 20, which was our case.
But, just, you know, the, theprocess of, of having that
meeting, the kai, and just thesharing of, of conversation,
and, that, that was all prettycool.
(35:22):
And, and, and yeah, just comingout of it, looking forward to
the next opportunity wheneverthat comes up.
Because it was pretty cool.
Jodhi (35:31):
The reason I asked that question is I was curious to see
if there, what your before andafter might have been like as
well.
I know that even any time that Ican, I will go onto marae and
participate in the powhiri theintroduction or that welcoming
process or the mihi whakatau,which is a less formal process
(35:54):
for welcoming someone into a,into an area.
There's always nervousness andthere's always an apprehension.
There's a little anxiety as wellfor, for people and, and, that's
normal.
I just want to, I really want tosay that's normal to feel, to
feel that.
But it's important that you pushthrough those anxieties, those
(36:15):
cultural uneasiness, we're notquite sure.
It's better to push through.
Those then to not have thatopportunity.
A lot of people miss out onopportunities because they're
unsure and they're not maybequite ready for those sort of
things.
but push through it and thenafterwards, afterwards, reflect
(36:37):
on on that anxiety a little bit.
Because the only way that welearn is when we push ourselves
out of our comfort zones.
So I had an experience, where wewere trying to organise a, a
wānanga or a noho, it wasactually going to be a noho
marae, which meant we sleptthere for two nights for work.
There was pushback from it, I'mgoing to be honest, and it was
(36:58):
really like, why?
Why is there pushback?
And what I realised was that my,my team were really anxious.
And perhaps me wanting to havethis noho was not the best idea.
Perhaps I needed to take asoftly, softly approach to this
and not do a sleepover on amarae, where everyone's worried
about snoring and worried aboutthis and worried about that.
(37:20):
There's far too many anxieties.
So instead what we did was wechanged it to a wānanga, meaning
we had the, we went through thepowhiri process, and then they
went and stayed somewhere else.
So we had the wānanga on themarae and I loved watching
everyone's anxieties being kindof, you could literally see it
(37:41):
just wash away from them andthat they felt so at home when
we were in those Three days ofjust sitting together and
meeting and training in a marae,within that te ao Māori space
where we had karakia and waiataand it was, and we were fed and
(38:01):
we were loved and we, we, weactually had that opportunity to
actually have robustdiscussions, but knowing That
the robustness stopped, but thenit stopped usually during the
kai time.
And then once we came back, therobustness started again.
But there is nothing wrong withthat.
But what it also taught us wasthat our previous meetings that
(38:24):
we've had with previous leaders,that, without having that
cultural element to it, that,that intellectual honesty, that
cultural intelligence.
It meant that we went away fromthose sort of meetings feeling
kind of yuck, kind of like wehave robust discussions, but
they weren't, they were moreargumentative.
(38:45):
Whereas under this this thisframework of being a te ao Māori
space, this cultural safety,where we could speak freely,
knowing that we could speakfreely, but we still appreciated
everyone's values and theconversations that they brought
with them.
So, As much as I, as much as Iwanted to have this nōho, I
(39:06):
realised that softly, softlyapproach can still work well.
So if your team's and you wantthem to have a cultural
experience, sometimes they'renot ready for all of it, but
then start with baby steps andthen slowly they will become
part of it.
I love.
I love, too, that we introducedifferent languages, too.
We had a Portuguese-Spanish-speaking team member, and so he
(39:30):
did his mihi, because at theend, you know, you want to do a
mihi to, or give thanks to thosepeople who prepared the food,
the kai, and so he did a mihi tothem in Portuguese.
It was really cool to hear thaton the marae.
And we sang a waiata that we'djust learnt.
But yeah, softly, softlyapproach if they're not ready
for it.
Greg (39:52):
So, you know what the drill is at the end of this
podcast?
Is, it's a couple ofrecommendations or suggestions
of what...
Health and safety professionalscan do to enhance their cultural
intelligence.
I'm going to give you that oneas one, about the softy softly
approach.
(40:12):
So maybe you've got one or twoothers, and particularly in
relation to maybe your, yourself-reflection tool, I know
it's primarily focused at HSRs,but I'm sure that there's health
and safety professionals outthere who are sort of, have got
some involvement in the networkof health and safety reps at
their organisations.
(40:33):
How can they get involved?
Jodhi (40:35):
I'm going to give you two.
How's that?
The first I'll say is...
Come and do this assessment.
Actually, I'm going to give youthree.
Do the self-assessment and let'ssee what comes up with it.
I'll, I'll share the link withGreg and he can post it up.
I don't know how many people,how, what your listeners, how
many listeners you have, butlet's see what comes out of it.
(40:57):
So the first one I'd suggest isreflect on your personal past.
Challenges that you had whereyou were, you were challenged in
some way with some of thosecross cultural interactions.
Identify what you think youcould do better.
You've been listening to this,these podcasts and the series or
the both of the theories.
Think about some of the thingsthat you could perhaps change.
(41:20):
And the second one I actuallysay is ask some of your
colleagues to give you feedback.
about how you can improve someof your own cultural
interaction.
I'm sure that all of yourorganizations that you work
within aren't so homogenous,aren't so singular, that there
aren't, isn't diversity.
(41:40):
Maybe, even ask some of yourfriends, family, too, to give
you some feedback about how youcan change some of your own
practices.
And I think you'll be, you maybe surprised at the feedback
that you receive, but it takes abit of cultural humility to
receive that as well.
So before you do ask forfeedback, be prepared.
Greg (42:02):
Yeah, no, those are cool and, and, absolutely, things
that we would suggest.
You know, you, you do to enhanceyour cultural intelligence.
That's a real, that first one isreally interesting around,
around identifying whichcultural norms challenge you.
That's, you know, that, that'sa, that's a, a really
(42:24):
fascinating question to askyourself.
And the ask for feedback one, isa good one as well.
So, so, Jodie, thanks so muchfor your time, and yeah, we'll
put the link up to, to the, tothe assessments that people can,
use if they, if they want to,and or maybe get in touch with
you to talk about, you know, howit might work for their
(42:47):
organization.
So just, I really appreciateyour time.
Today and yeah, thanks for thechat.
Jodhi (42:54):
Awesome.
Not a problem.
Really.
That's a big thank you to you,Greg and also to your listeners
as well for your support andalso for your aroha or love.
Greg (43:12):
Again, a discussion full of gold nuggets from Jodhi about
enhancing cultural intelligencethrough a Māori lens.
Our conversation focused on howindividual leadership and
behavior can promote culturalintelligence within an
organization.
As we know leadership is aseries of moments where
individuals demonstrate culturalintelligence which can influence
(43:35):
others and create a movement.
I love the story about Jodhigetting involved in her son's
return to work plan and theinvestigation of his workplace
injury.
This really emphasized theholistic approach needed to
maintaining mana, or dignity ofa person, following such an
event.
(43:56):
And also the importance ofengaging Whanau in work
processes.
We talked about the developmentof cultural intelligence among
safety professionals.
And emphasize the significanceof cultural intelligence as a
learnable skill, and how thiscan be facilitated through the
use of the self reflectiveassessment tool created by TRMR.
(44:20):
I've distilled our conversationinto five key points.
Firstly, Cultural Intelligenceis a learnable skill which can
be developed and improvedthrough self-assessment,
reflective practices, and activeparticipation in cultural
experiences.
(44:40):
The self-reflective assessmenttool developed by TRMR, which is
based on the Haumaru Tangataframework can help individuals
and organizations enhance theircultural intelligence.
Next.
The goal of the tool is toempower individual health and
safety representatives to becomecultural catalysts within their
(45:01):
organization.
Driving change through their ownpersonal growth and influence.
The fourth point, encouragingWhanau participation in the
workplace, expanding culturalcompetency training, fostering
partnerships with Māoriorganizations and embedding
cultural values into policiesare essential tips for cultural
(45:23):
integration.
And finally participating incultural activities and being
curious about colleagues,traditions and pushing through
anxieties when engaging in newcultural experiences can lead to
valuable learning and growth.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
(45:46):
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
And there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly.
(46:07):
So keep an eye on your feed.
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:42):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:06):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
Ok team, you've heard from herbefore and she's back on the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional podcast to share
some stories about what she'sbeen up to since we last spoke.
Jodhi Warwick-Ponga, trustee ofTRMR and head of all sorts of
(01:26):
cool things at VerticalHorizons.
Welcome back e hoa, wonderful tohave you on the show again.
Jodhi (01:32):
Well kia ora Greg, tēnā koe mea ngā kai whakarongo
katoa.
So that means greetings to youand to all the listeners out
there, it's really exciting tobe back.
Greg (01:41):
Kia ora.
Yeah, awesome.
So, last time we spoke, it wasthe last episode of season one
of, the podcast.
What sort of wonderful mahi haveyou been up to since then?
Jodhi (01:55):
Quite a bit actually, but, just by way of
introductions, because I knowlast time we spoke I was like,
Oh, I forgot to do a mihi, and Iforgot to share my pēpeha.
So I thought this time aroundI'm not going to miss this
opportunity.
So I'm going to jump into it andjust share a little bit about
the traditional way ofintroducing ourselves, within a
Māori context.
So I'll share that with you.
(02:16):
So ko Takitimu te waka, koAorangi te maunga koro Mahanga
te awa, ko Ngāti Kahungunu kiWairarapa tōku iwi, ko Jodhi
Warwick Ponga ahau.
So briefly what I shared thenwas about my waka or the canoe
that my whānau came on, whichwas Takitimu.
And I also spoke about myancestral mountain, which is
Aorangi, which is in the SouthIsland.
(02:38):
And also Ruamahanga, which Ispoke about then is the, the awa
or the waters that I, affiliateto.
And my iwi or my tribe that Ibelong to is Ngāti Kahungunu ki
Wairarapa.
So that's that's just a formalway of introducing your pepeha,
and it's a lovely way to startconnecting with your audience as
(03:00):
well.
So, I wanted to reiterate thoughthat I'm a learner of all of
cultural intelligence, culturaleverything, I'm still on a
journey, and my te reo as well,it's a journey.
Something that I hope that willnever end, but it's, every day
is a learning day for me.
But yeah, what have I been up tothese last, oh, couple of
(03:23):
months, maybe a little bit more?
A lot.
One of the things that we've hadthe opportunity to do since we
last caught up was that mycolleague Moira Loach and I, we
spoke at HASANZ, which is theNew Zealand Health and Safety
Association.
For all health and safetyprofessionals and that was
pretty exciting.
Greg (03:41):
Outstanding presentation.
Jodhi (03:42):
Yeah, actually it was with, so Moira and I presented
lots.
That particular, conferencethough was with Benji Hemi, and
I'd like to think that it was agreat opportunity for us to get
out there and share more aboutour framework, Haumaru Tangata,
and also a little bit more aboutbeing culturally responsive in
the workplace.
And also bring that, tie thatall together about how it also
(04:05):
works within our own homes andin our own communities.
We've done some more work with,the Government Health and Safety
Lead, where we've, tried tointroduce a new self-assessment
or a new self-reflective tool.
The working title is a workingtitle.
I still haven't come up withlike a, a full new name for it.
(04:29):
I'm calling it though,Whakatōkia Ngā Kākano Mō Te
Oranga, meaning, the literaltranslation is that we plant the
seeds for well-being.
The intent again was about self-reflection, and then it's the
opportunity for health andsafety professionals and
practitioners, but more so forhealth and safety reps, to
(04:52):
actually reflect on their ownpractices in regards to the
Haumaru Tangata framework.
And then to potentially supportand understand how, how they can
perhaps change some of theiractivities or, or understand the
impacts that their currentpractices have, but then
(05:15):
understanding that there areways that they can slightly
change some of their practicesto improve and to have that more
holistic approach in their rolesas reps, practitioners and
professionals.
Greg (05:26):
Nice.
Well, so much in there.
I want to go back to your pepehaand, just comment that, maybe
it's, it's why we have managedto connect so well is that I was
brought up in Wairarapa.
So we've got that, connection.
And as you say, that's the wholepoint of the thing, right?
Is to, is to create connectionbetween whoever it is you're,
(05:46):
you're engaging with and,talking with.
So that was cool.
Thank you.
The presentation, at HASANZ.
One of the things I rememberwas, actually when you guys
weren't on stage, and somebodyposed a question to the WorkSafe
representative and, and thediscussion got a little bit
heated.
And right at the end, Ben stoodup and from the audience and
(06:09):
sort of just tried to, I guess,calm the room and just, you
know, reflect on the fact that achallenging conversation had
been had, and, that, that wasended now, and we should all go
back to sort of being, normal, Isuppose, and, I thought that was
a really telling moment aboutreflecting Māori culture and how
(06:29):
that, he was able to displaythat, in that particular,
moment, which I thought was, wasquite, well done.
Jodhi (06:35):
I might, I might touch on that slightly too in a moment,
if you like, just to talk...
Audio Only - All Particip (06:40):
Yeah.
Jodhi (06:41):
In New Zealand, well, New Zealand Māori, when we move into
a, or we visit a marae, we'rewelcomed on in a process called
a Pōwhiri so that process is awelcome.
There's lots of backgroundbehind it, but it's to welcome
people into this new space.
There's actually a space whereyou're, where you wait outside
(07:05):
and then you're called on by akaranga.
And then as you walk towards themarae, there's this space in
between a, I hope I'm getting itright, it's called a wātea.
So just in that space betweenthere and the marae is, this
kind of open space.
And it's in that space where allthe challenges occur.
(07:26):
So what Benji and I, more soBenji, I'm going to be real,
I've got to do a really, I'vegot to acknowledge Benji for his
intelligence and hisresponsiveness in this, because
Benji recognised that we're in aspace where it was challenging.
And without a doubt, there was alot of passion that was flowing
(07:49):
and it was interesting watchingit because it was flowing on the
screen.
So what Benji did was, and Irecognize it only now, is
that...
In that space when there ischallenging times, that's the
only space where you canchallenge.
But then as you, the karangafinishes off and you move closer
into the marae part, there isthat moment there where you self
(08:12):
-reflect before you enter intothe marae and you take off your
shoes.
And there's just this last onepart of the karanga and that
means that there is no morechallenges that to occur and we
come in peace.
So what Benji was doing here wasactually, he was using that
lullaby, which he actually sang.
(08:34):
He sang a lullaby to say thatthe challenge is now over.
Now we come in peace.
So, if we, if we can behave likethat, it can actually, help to
reduce a lot of the conflictthat we experience, knowing that
there's a time and a place forus to challenge, to, there's a,
(08:57):
the God of War in that, Atiaarea, and that there's a time
and a place.
But then, at the end of it, weneed to bring us back into that
time of peace, harmony, and toknow that this now ends.
And I think that'll be good forus, just in terms of for us as,
(09:18):
culturally intelligent people orpractitioners.
Anyway.
Greg (09:23):
It was just a telling moment, and I thought it was, it
was a memorable moment, probablymore memorable than most other
things that happened at the, atthe conference was just that,
was, yeah, was, I just,something that stuck with me
anyway.
And the last thing youmentioned, and I just want to
reflect on this, you talkedabout how people can think about
(09:44):
and develop their culturalintelligence and, and, you know,
going through this, thisassessment process for health
and safety reps.
And that's absolutely true interms of.
You know, cultural intelligenceis a capability or a skill that
can be learnt.
You know, unlike other things,you know, maybe that's it
around, around this where, youknow, it is what it is.
(10:07):
CQ is something that, you can,you can create a map of, of
where your own culturalintelligence sits today and it
can identify.
progress that you can make to bemore culturally intelligent,
down the road.
So, so yeah, just really keento, dive into, into this
(10:27):
assessment, that you'vedeveloped.
And, you know, it's all verywell for me to sit here and tell
people they need to be moreculturally intelligent, but, but
you and the team at TRMR arereally kicking goals and coming
up with, with the how-to.
So tell me about this resource.
Jodhi (10:43):
I guess to step back and to say, give some context about
how it was created or why it wascreated, is that we created
kōteao, which I believe I spokeabout last time.
And kōrote ao kōtea ko au is aself-reflective tool that was
created for organisations basedon the Haumaru Tangata
framework.
(11:04):
And we introduced it at our 2023conference.
And the intent was to, to reallyenable or allow the opportunity
for those who are present.
To actually review theirorganizations against the
Haumaru Tangata framework and tounderstand what their strengths
were and what they were doingwell within the rau and the ara
(11:28):
and those foundationalprinciples and focus areas.
And then to, to give them aroadmap so they could create
their own roadmap about wherethere were gaps within their own
organization, and how they couldfill those gaps.
And it was actually a reallyamazing way we thought was going
to be, help us to understand thegaps within the, those who were
the participants, and then wecould create resources around
(11:50):
that.
So, just this past, past yearand after the conference, we
received funding from ACC toroll this out, this quote here,
the self-reflective assessment,to roll it out to 30
organizations, which we did.
And.
We finally presented that reportjust last week to ACC, which was
really, it was great.
(12:12):
But one of the things that welearned from doing and going and
speaking with these 30organizations and the
individuals within theorganizations was that it was
great to have this self-assessment tool based on how
your organization is performing.
But really what we saw was theorganizations.
just couldn't actually make thechange.
(12:33):
They were, essentially, therewere individuals who could do
the self-reflective,assessments, but they didn't
actually have the power to makethat cultural change across the
entire organisation.
So they were, and i when you'regoing through a process like
this and you get really excitedand, like, yes we can do this
(12:54):
and this and you find out allthe recommendations that the
organisation can, do.
but then as a person who's doingthis, finding that you have so
many barriers that stop you fromputting those recommendations in
place, it's really hard.
Because one person can't changean entire organisation.
So one self-assessment can'tchange an entire organisation.
(13:16):
So looking back on it when wewere reviewing all of those 30
organisations, we realised that,hey, It feels kind of
disempowering when you're inthat situation as the individual
who's being self-reflective foran organization as a whole.
Instead, why don't we assist theindividual health and safety
rep, the individual health andsafety manager or advisor, to
(13:40):
change their practices?
Not the organization's practicesas a whole.
So we thought about that and wethought why not do this with
health and safety reps.
So, in New Zealand we have likefor every 20 people within a
working group.
There is a, a legislativerequirement to have one health
and safety rep within that 20.
And so we thought, hmm, if thereare a hundred in an organization
(14:02):
that's five people whopotentially have the ability to
then go out and influence withintheir own working group, So, we
took Haumaru Tangata once again,and we looked at ways in which
we could ask questions forindividual practitioners, health
and safety reps, and createquestions so that they could,
(14:24):
self-reflect on their ownpractices, and then to provide
them with a report, apersonalised report, for how
they can change their individualpractice.
Now, That is not scalable in anyway.
If you have like 7,000, it was,oh, it was even hard because our
first kōteao, our first self-reflective assessment, it was a
(14:45):
spreadsheet.
It was an Excel spreadsheet.
It was clunky.
You couldn't get data backstraight away, it was so
painful.
But you know we work on thesmell of an oily rag and that's
what we had access to, so that'swhy we used that Excel
spreadsheet.
And we audited, not audited, butwe supported the assessment of
(15:07):
those 30 organizations withinExcel spreadsheet.
This time around, unknowingabout how many numbers we might
have, we've actually now put itinto a form.
It's still not perfect, it's aMicrosoft form, but what it does
is it enables us to get all thisdata back in real time and also
to, to allow people to, to dothis individually, and it's a
(15:33):
scalable model at the moment.
We've also created in behind aChat GPT, so it's an individual
GPT and we've thrown in a wholelot of info and all our
resources into this GPT and itcan shoot out a report at the
end of it, which is what youexperience when you filled in
yours.
So that's, that is the intentbehind it.
(15:55):
Obviously, though, with any AI,you still have to read every
report, but in regards to this,Why we have done this is because
we know that organisations takefar too long to, it's like
turning an ocean liner on adime.
It takes too long for theorganisation to, to change for
(16:15):
its people who want the changeto occur quickly.
But those people who wantchange, Things to change
quickly.
They can only change withintheir own individual practices,
and then they can only influencewithin their, their working
group.
So the intent of our newWhakatōkia Ngā Kākano me te
(16:36):
Oranga, the self-reflection, isto change, to support the
individual to grow and develop,and then in turn influence those
within their own space.
And that's why we did it thatway.
It's
Audio Only - All Participants (16:51):
a new development tool, right?
Jodhi (16:53):
Yeah, it's a new development tool, definitely.
Greg (16:57):
And it's, it's, it's helping, individuals become
cultural catalysts, in theirorganisation, through a little
bit of introspective reflection.
And, and I think what you'vetalked about really is sowing
the seeds of, of creatingleaders, right?
Because if I'm changing mybehaviour.
(17:17):
Ledership over time.
Leadership's about moments.
Leadership is is about how Ibehave in the moment, that, in a
way that shows leadership toothers.
And if I start as one personwho's, who's starting to promote
more, cultural intelligencepersonally, and then my, my mate
(17:38):
picks up on that and does thesame thing, and then all of the
health and safety reps do thesame thing, all of a sudden and
you've got a bit of a leadershipmovement, and maybe...
The leadership of theorganisation will go, Hey, look
at this, what's happening overhere.
This is pretty cool.
Let's see what we can do tosupport that and, and maybe roll
it out to the rest of theorganisation or, you know, help
(17:59):
everybody else become more awareof, of some of these things.
So I think that's, is that sortof how you'd see it?
Jodhi (18:06):
Yeah, it's a socialisation, so it's about
socialising and normalisingthese practices.
And without having the need toimplement, so, without having
the need to implement likeformalized processes and
policies, it becomes part ofwhat's normal behavior.,
Greg (18:24):
Yeah absolutely.
So you do the assessment, andyou get a report, and so I've
got my report here.
And I just wanted to go through,for those that are listening,
just some of the high levelthings that the report says, and
then maybe you can just dig alittle bit deeper into, into
that stuff.
My report, gives me some ngāmahi e te wāhi ake, which is
(18:48):
practical steps to implementchange, and says I could look
into whakatipu iti oranga, whichis about enhancing well-being at
my workplace through encouragingwhānau participation and
embedding tikanga into healthand safety processes.
It says I can focus onwhakamohio and whakahoki
(19:10):
matauranga which is aboutbuilding knowledge and
capability through expanding mycultural competency training and
also creating feedback channelsand I thought that was quite an
interesting one when we startdigging into what sits behind
that.
And I can look at ngā hōngongaMotuhaki, so that's about
holistic integration andfostering partnerships with
(19:32):
Māori organisations.
And also highlighting Māorileadership.
And finally it talked about, tewhakau i te tēkanga, which is
about, embedding cultural valuesinto policies and promoting
success stories.
So that was the suite ofrecommendations, and then
sitting below all of that was abunch of practical actions, I
(19:53):
suppose.
Do you want to just talk throughsome of that recommendation
stuff and, and, and how that allcomes together?
Jodhi (20:00):
You know, yeah, no, that's absolutely fine.
What I, one thing about, Iremember your particular, your
particular self-reflectionsthrough your assessment.
You're in a unique position inthat you have this podcast, you
have gone through a lot ofeffort to learn more about Māori
culture and be culturallyresponsive across all cultures
(20:23):
as well.
If it was someone who was not atyour level, some of the basic
things that the recommendationsthat may have come out would be
like, you know, why not showcuriosity about asking your
colleagues about their culturaltraditions or about their
holidays?
What are they celebrating?
I know that here in the office,at Vertical Horizons recently we
(20:46):
had a colleague and it's It wasDiwali and he shared with us
food, kai, and he also broughtin some of the clothing that
they wear, some of theirtraditional clothing.
And then he did a short, a shortlittle brief about what the
cultural significance of Diwaliwas for him and his family.
(21:06):
And then there was thisopportunity for us to actually
ask questions, to talk moreabout it.
So for those who are learning tounderstand a little bit more and
wanting to grow in theircultural understanding and
cultural awareness, it startswith some of those foundational
things.
Show curiosity about yourcolleagues.
You can participate in culturalawareness workshops and read.
(21:30):
There's so much available out onthe internet at the moment about
cultural awareness.
And participate in informalcultural celebrations.
So, once a year we have Matarikihere in New Zealand.
We also have, Te Wiki o te Reo.
So Matariki is, it's, it's theMāori New Year.
It's a time for reflection, alsosetting goals.
And then we also have Te Wiki oTe Reo Māori, which is Māori
(21:54):
Language Week.
So celebrating those, those arereally foundational things.
Other things we can do is, ifwe're already doing those
things, the next thing we canactually do, if we want to
stretch a little bit further, iswe can volunteer and be part of
creating and planning thoseevents.
So if there's a special Matarikior Te Wiki or Te Reo Māori, be
(22:18):
part of actually doing somethingwithin your office or within
your workplace or where you haveinfluence to bring an element of
those cultural celebrations orDiwali.
We also have things, you know,when you, when you go somewhere,
really extend yourself and gointo the community and visit
areas.
(22:38):
So for me, I know I, I just wentto Australia, but one thing I
make a point of, and recentlywhen I was in Australia with my
daughters is we made a point ofvisiting a different areas where
there are definite, differentethnicities.
So going into theirsupermarkets, going into their
(23:00):
markets and hearing the variouslanguage around you and the
culture, eating the differentfoods, watching the way in which
they engage with one another,those all increase your, your
cultural understanding and yourcultural awareness.
But it doesn't mean that youhave to travel overseas.
You can do that in differentregions and different areas
(23:20):
within your own country and whathave you.
So that's one of the things thatI find a value is anywhere I go.
I'm like, let's go check outtheir markets and see what
they're like.
And then if you wanted to extenda little bit further from that,
the next step that you as anindividual can do is you can
start Being a mentor and a coachto your team members and really
(23:42):
supporting them to help them tounderstand how they can can work
confidently within the culturethat you have, and to share
those interactions and how bestto, how they can navigate
through them.
And then, stretching a littlebit further, is start advocating
for organisational policies andprocedures that prioritise,
(24:03):
those cross-cultural learningopportunities, where your
organisation may not havecultural awareness workshops.
Why not, if you have stretchedto the point where you want to
do a little bit more, startadvocating for the opportunities
where you can ask for those tobe provided to yourself and
staff members.
But your report though, In termsof for the layout, very generic
(24:27):
in terms, for its layout, wegave like feedback, it talks
about the feedback that you gaveto us.
And then we essentiallyregurgitate it back to you,
acknowledge what you have said,and then provide some
understandings about how you,how you can improve.
So, some of those actions thatwe spoke about was about
(24:48):
whakatipu i te oranga, soenhancing the well-being.
And that's not only your ownwell-being, but also enhancing
the well-being of those aroundyou.
So one of the recommendationsthat we suggested was that you
encourage whānau participation.
So within your space, We oftenforget that whānau is a
significant part of manycultures, or family is a, many
(25:10):
cultures, they value family, soit's about ensuring that we, we
allow that space for family tocome and to participate in
discussions about health andsafety.
I think about my own son in thejourney, well one of my, one of
my sons, my twins.
And our son, he had a workplaceinjury and it was quite
(25:34):
considerable where he couldn'treturn to work for six weeks.
Thankfully it was more to dowith his shoulder and the nature
of the work, being that helifted a lot.
It was heavy steel on hisshoulder.
But what it, what I recognizedwas left out in his return to
work plan was that there was noopportunity for his family to be
(25:54):
involved in that.
There was no opportunity for hisfamily to participate in the
investigation for how the injuryoccurred.
So, being his mother and going alittle bit mama bear, I injected
myself into that.
So, and it was the first timeI'd ever had that experience
(26:16):
where whānau were involved inthe investigation and were able
to provide, and the whānaudirectly provided feedback to
the health and safety manager,and it was the first time also
that had whānau involved in thereturn to work plan, and it was
more so that they couldunderstand the impact of This
(26:37):
return to work plan to ensurethat it took a holistic approach
to ensuring that Mason's manawhen he returned back to work
was, whilst it was diminishedbecause of that workplace
injury, that there was stillmana for him for when he
returned and he could still,through his acts and
contributions, while it wasn'this same job, he was still able
(26:58):
to support the workplace inother areas with light duties.
So it was a, still a manaenhancing opportunity.
Greg (27:05):
Thats an interesting point, because I remember
reading recently, and I think itwas off the back of a forestry
fatality or something, where thewhānau had been able to get into
the workplace and, maybe they'dbeen interviewed later, or there
was some sort of media attentionabout it, and hadn't really
realised the type of work thattheir family member was actually
(27:28):
doing, and so it was, you know,it was a bit of an eye opener
for them in terms of theenvironment that they were
working in, and so yeah, I guessout of that, just came that
increased knowledge andunderstanding, of, what was
going on at the time.
Jodhi (27:43):
We must have been reading the same article.
I think one of the things thatwas really prevalent or, really
interesting Most family don'tunderstand the work that you do.
Sometimes, and I know especiallywhen I was a lot younger, we
used to try and separate workfrom home.
(28:04):
But the reality is, is that workand home, they actually work
together.
Because what you bring fromhome, You bring to your work and
you also, whether you like it ornot, a lot of the behaviours and
attitudes and things and thosecultural values, you also have
them within your workplace too,be it maybe a different kind of
(28:26):
culture, but those shared valuesand beliefs, you also bring them
home and they shape Your homelife as well.
So with that particular, study,I remember thinking and my one
of my colleagues, Moira, sheshared in ACC when we were
presenting to them, she talkedto them about, You know, what's
(28:48):
stopping us from having whanaudays?
Those days where we come in andwe can talk about the work that
we do, the machinery that we do,why it's so important for
actually dad to make sure, dador mum, to make sure that
they're hydrated because theirwork involves being outdoors.
There's a reason why they takeso much, such a big lunch to
work.
(29:08):
Because they burn a lot of, thatenergy off and they need to have
something sustaining for thewhole time.
There's a reason why a mum anddad need to actually be in bed
early and can't stay up late.
And then, but also the whānaucan then come back and see
what's happening, why they, theyreally do need to actually look
(29:29):
after themselves holistic,holistically at home and also
work.
But the whānau can see, thewhānau can actually see their
work environment, can see the,the, the tasks that are
performed, but in turn, theworkplace then also can see the
whānau and know that thisindividual doesn't come to work
by themselves.
(29:50):
There's a whole community inbehind that they are supporting
and they have to continue tostay healthy for that whānau as
well.
So it's a, it's a, it's a win-win situation for both the
whānau and the workplace.
But again, that, that is, bydoing that takes a lot of
(30:13):
emotional and culturalintelligence to do those sort of
activities.
Greg (30:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
So we're sort of moving towardsthe end, but I just do want to
pick up on a couple of points.
Firstly, you talked about goingto Australia and getting out
into different markets andplaces.
And one of the things that theytalk about in cultural
intelligence is the concept ofinternational travel.
And, and maybe myth-busting thatinternational travel on its own
(30:43):
doesn't mean you're going to bemore culturally intelligent.
What you need to do and whatyou've reflected a little bit
is, is actually getting awayfrom the touristy areas.
Now going to the tourist hotspotis not going to make you
culturally intelligent, butgoing out to a community, you
talked about a community sort ofsupermarket type scenario,
(31:06):
getting into the everyday livesof, of the people that live in
that place, is, is where thecultural intelligence comes
from.
So that's, that's sort of, Iguess, a bit of a myth buster
that just because yourpassport's full doesn't mean
that, doesn't mean you'renecessarily going to be
culturally intelligent.
I just wanted to finally finishon a couple of, just a couple of
(31:29):
examples, I suppose, of somestuff that I've recently done to
enhance my, my culturalintelligence, both related to,
to te ao Māori.
And the first one, whicheverybody in New Zealand had the
opportunity to do, and I'm suremany did, was watch the
tangihanga for the Kingitangaand, and just, just be curious
(31:55):
about why certain thingshappened the way they happened.
You know, buried in an unmarkedgrave on top of a hill.
And the reasons for that sort ofthing.
And, and, all of the, the, therewas reasons and, and I guess
cultural, norms as to whycertain things happened along
that, I don't know how long itwas, several hour process from
(32:17):
when he left the marae to whenhe got to the top of the, of the
mountain.
So that was, that was, yeah, asI say, a part of enhancing my,
my own CQ.
Recently I've become involved inthe local community here
developing a communitydevelopment plan.
(32:37):
We've never had one.
And the first meeting was.
At the local marae.
So we, you know, we, we wentthrough that, that welcome
process, with the karanga and,and walking through, into the
marae and, and having, in fact,we actually had the meeting out,
is it the ātea out in the, outfront of the marae, and then
(32:58):
went, or had the speeches,sorry, outside, and then went
into, into the, to one of theother rooms and had a bit more
of a formal sort of meeting andsome kai, and went through that
process.
And I don't, I don't know howmany opportunities, you know,
Pākehā New Zealanders get to dothat, but it's, it's pretty
cool, to, to experience that.
(33:20):
So, yeah, just a couple ofthings that I've done recently
to, that, that have.
contributed to my understandingand knowledge around some of
that stuff.
Jodhi (33:28):
How did you feel?
I'm going to throw the questionback at you.
How did you feel during thatprocess and then afterwards
connected?
Greg (33:36):
One of the things, and it's interesting, I've got a
longer story I could tell aboutKoha.
And, but in this case, you know,this meeting had been organized
by the council, and I guess incollaboration with the, with the
local iwi.
And, I thought, oh, I wonder ifwe need to take koha.
Now, surely the council'sorganized something along that
way.
(33:57):
And just before we went in, youknow, somebody stood up and
said, You know, anybody got akoha for the marae?
And I mean, I'm a cashlessperson, so I wasn't able to do
anything.
But now I know, I know a lotmore about the process around
koha.
And, and so I learned somestuff.
(34:17):
I think there was a lot ofrespect, Both ways, to the
manuhieri from the tangatawhenua.
And and equally, you know,respect for being invited into
that place.
There was a couple of people inthe group who probably were a
(34:38):
little bit ignorant about someof the processes.
And and you know, had to have aquiet word said to them, you
know, before we entered.
I mean, I had been on a maraeseveral years ago as part of my
leadership, masters and, and,you know, was just watched the
whole process around the foodpreparation, and, and how all of
(35:01):
that works.
And then to see it over severalweeks as part of the tangihanga,
you know, and obviously that wasthousands of people rather than
about 20, which was our case.
But, just, you know, the, theprocess of, of having that
meeting, the kai, and just thesharing of, of conversation,
and, that, that was all prettycool.
(35:22):
And, and, and yeah, just comingout of it, looking forward to
the next opportunity wheneverthat comes up.
Because it was pretty cool.
Jodhi (35:31):
The reason I asked that question is I was curious to see
if there, what your before andafter might have been like as
well.
I know that even any time that Ican, I will go onto marae and
participate in the powhiri theintroduction or that welcoming
process or the mihi whakatau,which is a less formal process
(35:54):
for welcoming someone into a,into an area.
There's always nervousness andthere's always an apprehension.
There's a little anxiety as wellfor, for people and, and, that's
normal.
I just want to, I really want tosay that's normal to feel, to
feel that.
But it's important that you pushthrough those anxieties, those
(36:15):
cultural uneasiness, we're notquite sure.
It's better to push through.
Those then to not have thatopportunity.
A lot of people miss out onopportunities because they're
unsure and they're not maybequite ready for those sort of
things.
but push through it and thenafterwards, afterwards, reflect
(36:37):
on on that anxiety a little bit.
Because the only way that welearn is when we push ourselves
out of our comfort zones.
So I had an experience, where wewere trying to organise a, a
wānanga or a noho, it wasactually going to be a noho
marae, which meant we sleptthere for two nights for work.
There was pushback from it, I'mgoing to be honest, and it was
(36:58):
really like, why?
Why is there pushback?
And what I realised was that my,my team were really anxious.
And perhaps me wanting to havethis noho was not the best idea.
Perhaps I needed to take asoftly, softly approach to this
and not do a sleepover on amarae, where everyone's worried
about snoring and worried aboutthis and worried about that.
(37:20):
There's far too many anxieties.
So instead what we did was wechanged it to a wānanga, meaning
we had the, we went through thepowhiri process, and then they
went and stayed somewhere else.
So we had the wānanga on themarae and I loved watching
everyone's anxieties being kindof, you could literally see it
(37:41):
just wash away from them andthat they felt so at home when
we were in those Three days ofjust sitting together and
meeting and training in a marae,within that te ao Māori space
where we had karakia and waiataand it was, and we were fed and
(38:01):
we were loved and we, we, weactually had that opportunity to
actually have robustdiscussions, but knowing That
the robustness stopped, but thenit stopped usually during the
kai time.
And then once we came back, therobustness started again.
But there is nothing wrong withthat.
But what it also taught us wasthat our previous meetings that
(38:24):
we've had with previous leaders,that, without having that
cultural element to it, that,that intellectual honesty, that
cultural intelligence.
It meant that we went away fromthose sort of meetings feeling
kind of yuck, kind of like wehave robust discussions, but
they weren't, they were moreargumentative.
(38:45):
Whereas under this this thisframework of being a te ao Māori
space, this cultural safety,where we could speak freely,
knowing that we could speakfreely, but we still appreciated
everyone's values and theconversations that they brought
with them.
So, As much as I, as much as Iwanted to have this nōho, I
(39:06):
realised that softly, softlyapproach can still work well.
So if your team's and you wantthem to have a cultural
experience, sometimes they'renot ready for all of it, but
then start with baby steps andthen slowly they will become
part of it.
I love.
I love, too, that we introducedifferent languages, too.
We had a Portuguese-Spanish-speaking team member, and so he
(39:30):
did his mihi, because at theend, you know, you want to do a
mihi to, or give thanks to thosepeople who prepared the food,
the kai, and so he did a mihi tothem in Portuguese.
It was really cool to hear thaton the marae.
And we sang a waiata that we'djust learnt.
But yeah, softly, softlyapproach if they're not ready
for it.
Greg (39:52):
So, you know what the drill is at the end of this
podcast?
Is, it's a couple ofrecommendations or suggestions
of what...
Health and safety professionalscan do to enhance their cultural
intelligence.
I'm going to give you that oneas one, about the softy softly
approach.
(40:12):
So maybe you've got one or twoothers, and particularly in
relation to maybe your, yourself-reflection tool, I know
it's primarily focused at HSRs,but I'm sure that there's health
and safety professionals outthere who are sort of, have got
some involvement in the networkof health and safety reps at
their organisations.
(40:33):
How can they get involved?
Jodhi (40:35):
I'm going to give you two.
How's that?
The first I'll say is...
Come and do this assessment.
Actually, I'm going to give youthree.
Do the self-assessment and let'ssee what comes up with it.
I'll, I'll share the link withGreg and he can post it up.
I don't know how many people,how, what your listeners, how
many listeners you have, butlet's see what comes out of it.
(40:57):
So the first one I'd suggest isreflect on your personal past.
Challenges that you had whereyou were, you were challenged in
some way with some of thosecross cultural interactions.
Identify what you think youcould do better.
You've been listening to this,these podcasts and the series or
the both of the theories.
Think about some of the thingsthat you could perhaps change.
(41:20):
And the second one I actuallysay is ask some of your
colleagues to give you feedback.
about how you can improve someof your own cultural
interaction.
I'm sure that all of yourorganizations that you work
within aren't so homogenous,aren't so singular, that there
aren't, isn't diversity.
(41:40):
Maybe, even ask some of yourfriends, family, too, to give
you some feedback about how youcan change some of your own
practices.
And I think you'll be, you maybe surprised at the feedback
that you receive, but it takes abit of cultural humility to
receive that as well.
So before you do ask forfeedback, be prepared.
Greg (42:02):
Yeah, no, those are cool and, and, absolutely, things
that we would suggest.
You know, you, you do to enhanceyour cultural intelligence.
That's a real, that first one isreally interesting around,
around identifying whichcultural norms challenge you.
That's, you know, that, that'sa, that's a, a really
(42:24):
fascinating question to askyourself.
And the ask for feedback one, isa good one as well.
So, so, Jodie, thanks so muchfor your time, and yeah, we'll
put the link up to, to the, tothe assessments that people can,
use if they, if they want to,and or maybe get in touch with
you to talk about, you know, howit might work for their
(42:47):
organization.
So just, I really appreciateyour time.
Today and yeah, thanks for thechat.
Jodhi (42:54):
Awesome.
Not a problem.
Really.
That's a big thank you to you,Greg and also to your listeners
as well for your support andalso for your aroha or love.
Greg (43:12):
Again, a discussion full of gold nuggets from Jodhi about
enhancing cultural intelligencethrough a Māori lens.
Our conversation focused on howindividual leadership and
behavior can promote culturalintelligence within an
organization.
As we know leadership is aseries of moments where
individuals demonstrate culturalintelligence which can influence
(43:35):
others and create a movement.
I love the story about Jodhigetting involved in her son's
return to work plan and theinvestigation of his workplace
injury.
This really emphasized theholistic approach needed to
maintaining mana, or dignity ofa person, following such an
event.
(43:56):
And also the importance ofengaging Whanau in work
processes.
We talked about the developmentof cultural intelligence among
safety professionals.
And emphasize the significanceof cultural intelligence as a
learnable skill, and how thiscan be facilitated through the
use of the self reflectiveassessment tool created by TRMR.
(44:20):
I've distilled our conversationinto five key points.
Firstly, Cultural Intelligenceis a learnable skill which can
be developed and improvedthrough self-assessment,
reflective practices, and activeparticipation in cultural
experiences.
(44:40):
The self-reflective assessmenttool developed by TRMR, which is
based on the Haumaru Tangataframework can help individuals
and organizations enhance theircultural intelligence.
Next.
The goal of the tool is toempower individual health and
safety representatives to becomecultural catalysts within their
(45:01):
organization.
Driving change through their ownpersonal growth and influence.
The fourth point, encouragingWhanau participation in the
workplace, expanding culturalcompetency training, fostering
partnerships with Māoriorganizations and embedding
cultural values into policiesare essential tips for cultural
(45:23):
integration.
And finally participating incultural activities and being
curious about colleagues,traditions and pushing through
anxieties when engaging in newcultural experiences can lead to
valuable learning and growth.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
(45:46):
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
And there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly.
(46:07):
So keep an eye on your feed.
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
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