What a pleasure to speak with Moni, the conversation wasn't just about safety—it was about systems, culture, and the courage to do things differently. My key findings and lessons from this discussion include:
- Work is Adaptive, and not Just about Compliance
Moni shared how early career experiences taught her that safety of work isn't about ticking boxes, it’s about understanding the real-time complexity of work.
→ Lesson: If you want to improve safety, start by understanding how work actually happens, not just how it's written in procedures. - Learning Teams Unlock Real Performance
Moni’s work with learning teams has shown that collaboration leads to better decisions, stronger controls, and more engaged teams.
→ Lesson: Safety professionals must become facilitators of learning, not enforcers of rules. - Cultural Intelligence Builds Real Trust
In projects like the one with Pacific seasonal workers, Moni highlighted that meaningful engagement starts with cultural respect and humility.
→ Lesson: To truly engage people, you need to first understand—and value—their worldview, not just impose your own. - Power Means Responsibility to Adapt
Moni emphasized that those in leadership or facilitation roles must recognize their influence and adapt to others—not the other way around.
→ Lesson: If you hold power—perceived or real—it’s your responsibility to create space for others, especially in multicultural settings. - Safety I and Safety II Are Not Opposites
Using a powerful analogy, Moni likened Safety I and Safety II to Russian dolls—each layer adding value, not replacing the one before it.
→ Lesson: Don’t wait to “perfect” Safety I before trying new approaches—Safety II is not a replacement; it’s an evolution.
Moni's message is a challenge and an invitation: to stop chasing perfection, and instead start learning—alongside your teams, within your systems, and across your cultures. If we want safer, smarter, and more connected workplaces, this is the path forward.
For more of Moni's work see her book Discovering the New Vioew of Safety Using Learning Teams and the Horticulture NZ Case study using Learning Teams at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNmO_3nE4TQ
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world So this episode,we catch up with Moni Hogg, who
is a senior health and safetyspecialist with over 20 years of
experience, including roles atFletcher Building and Rocket
Lab.
She specializes in the safetytwo approach and has spent a
decade pioneering its methods inNew Zealand.
(01:28):
Moni has worked across variousindustries, delivering training
and consulting in sectors likeconstruction, agriculture,
healthcare, manufacturing,energy and infrastructure.
She's recognized for herleadership in the Safety two
space, partnering with expertsin Australia and regularly being
(01:49):
featured in industry events,awards, and publications.
Just quietly, I think Mon hasalso got a love for going fast,
given that she's got a bit of anassociation with women in
Motorsport, but that's probablya discussion for another
episode.
So kia ora Moni, great to haveyou on the show.
Moni (02:10):
Talofa Greg, it's fantastic to join you.
Greg (02:14):
So let's get straight into it before I get distracted about
Motorsport,'cause that's quiteeasy for me to jump into
discussions about Motorsport.
You've been in the health andsafety world for a couple of
decades.
So when you look back.
What are some of the key momentsor influences that have shifted
your thinking towards the newview approach to safety that you
(02:37):
spend a lot of time in?
Moni (02:40):
Oh, thanks Greg.
Yeah, that's a fantasticquestion.
I think everyone enjoysreflecting back on their career
and the moments that kind ofmade the journey, and probably
two key.
Memories stick out for me.
One is that as a young woman inthe late nineties I worked with
(03:00):
our tier one construction andinfrastructure conglomerate,
Fletcher Building, and I waspart of a cadet kind of scheme
and got the opportunity to workout in the housing subdivisions
and in the operations teams asan entry level construction
supervisor.
Which at that time was quitegroundbreaking and drew a lot of
(03:21):
attention.
I'll admit, and I was able tojump in and exercise a different
set of skills in terms ofbuilding relationships with
tradespeople and constructionteams and suppliers and so on to
optimize construction and it wasa success and, I think looking
back, it, it really informed myunderstanding of several things
(03:44):
that are intrinsically importantto safety two, which is to
understand the messy reality ofwork.
The fact that, there'svariability in work every day
and it's the expertise and the,I would say, brilliance of teams
that actually makes challengingand complex work environments
work in any given day, and, tosucceed in those environments,
(04:06):
we all have to jump in and worktogether and perform together.
And I think that really set meup for later on down the track
when I, originally heard SydneyDecker, who came to New Zealand
and shared some of the researchand the thinking that was going
on in his mind at that time.
When I heard all of that, I knewthat actually what he was
talking about reflected thereality of how work teams get
(04:29):
things done and.
So coming to the second memorythat really built the last 10
years in which I've beeninvolved in helping lead the
safety two thinking in NewZealand is literally a decade
ago, 2015, when I first heardSydney, I thought heck let's
jump in and trial some of theseideas out.
(04:50):
And so you talk about mybackground in motor sport, I was
racing in motor sport at thattime.
And you have to have courage tojump in that proposition
sometimes as a female and backyourself and take that risk.
And back in those days, I didtake several risks to, to try
out the ideas and they weresuccessful every time.
(05:11):
And I was able to, have thesupport from work teams and
management teams who could seethe potential in safety two.
And as Greg here in New Zealand,since then we've been very
successful with it.
Greg (05:26):
Absolutely what?
Cool, cool.
Sort of couple of reflections,and I guess if we fast forward
to now you're a recent author,Published author and your book,
discovering the New View ofSafety talks about using
learning teams to really unpackwork has done.
And I guess not just as it'simagined, as the sort of the
(05:48):
saying goes.
What surprised you most whenteams are given that space to
learn and reflect as acollective?
Moni (05:59):
Yeah I do a lot of learning teams and I teach
learning teams, as you're aware,Greg, and we've had a really
high level of adoption of thelearning teams methodology,
which was originally coined byTodd Conklin, and then very well
supported by Sydney Decker andthe whole Australasian safety
differently community.
(06:20):
I actually think it's a steppingstone.
I've got a second book as wellthat I'm over halfway through
now, which talks about thedevelopment from learning teams
through to co-design with yourteams through to eventually,
where I believe we are headingin the future is to
self-managing teams, which issomething I've, I have trialed
already and I think, we startout with learning teams, which
(06:43):
are very reflective, and it'sreally about learning with the
teams, collaborating with themon the solutions, and being able
to really understand how I guessteams are actually performing.
'cause currently I think thatperformance is masking some of
the system vulnerabilities thatwe have in our organizations
(07:04):
today.
And how that performance couldactually support critical
control effectiveness ratherthan the lens of the faulty
worker and what we need to do tocon control that faulty worker
in order to gain compliance.
So I guess it's coming, right?
Even back to, my, my youngeryears in the construction out in
(07:25):
the field in construction.
The fact is what we are tryingto do with those learning teams
is support those teams to becomemore high performing.
And as we call it in NewZealand, it's a term that was
coined.
By our regulator, WorkSafe NewZealand, how to enable better
work with our teams.
Greg (07:46):
Yeah.
Just as a sideline, how was theprocess of writing a book?
As you might know, I'm I'm aboutto dive into that process
myself, about a month in.
How was it for you?
Moni (07:59):
Ah, Greg.
Yeah, go for it.
I would really encourage it.
Probably been one of the moreone a highlight I guess for me
with my journey.
There was a fair few 4:00 AMmornings for me and working on
the book during long weekendsand holidays.
So they tell you that it's agrueling process and it is
however, if you carry on throughit and keep marching towards
(08:22):
your final goal once it's outthere.
It's just been a fantasticexperience for me anyway.
And.
I think actually the writing ofthe book in itself is a journey
because it's actually youreflect on everything that
you've done.
You really spend some timethinking about what would help
and support others with thosereflections.
And then to put it out there andshare it with others and have
(08:43):
that good response to that is,wonder, a wonderful experience,
I have to say.
So I highly encourage you, Greg,and anyone out there who's keen
to share their experiences.
These days you can self-publishand with social media, you can
get it out there.
And there's a lot of supportiveplatforms to, to get the word
out about what you've sharedwith others.
(09:04):
And yeah, I highly encourage it.
Greg (09:07):
Yep.
Cool.
Yeah as I say, it's it's monthone.
There's been some pretty prettytough targets that have been set
by the person that's mentoring,leading, guiding me through the
process.
So we will see how that goes.
And maybe by, I don't know,early next year.
We might have something on thevirtual shelf.
(09:28):
So looking forward to that.
Hey, in the safety space, weoften talk and we're in some
ways required to talk aboutworker engagement and worker
participation.
You've been on some projects andone in particular which, you did
with Hort NZ I think it was,where those engagement pieces
(09:49):
crossed a whole bunch ofcultural lines.
So what did you learn duringthat process around cultural
intelligence and how it canmeaningfully shape those aspects
of participation that we reallyneed when we're dealing with a
multicultural group of people?
Moni (10:09):
Yeah.
Thanks for asking about thatproject, Greg.
And we spent probably around ayear for the main part of the
project.
It was a pilot essentially inour horticulture industry here
in New Zealand, and it was, asyou've mentioned, supported by
Horticulture New Zealand, whoare the professional body that
(10:32):
represent the growers and theowners within the industry, and
they were able to secure fundingfrom a ACC, so in New Zealand,
that's the Accident CompensationCorporation, which is a
essentially a state run workcompensation scheme.
So it, it was part of the injuryprevention funding that they
(10:55):
provide to initiatives that passthe criteria about whether it
would potentially reduceinjuries.
And what we did is we wanted tocombine a cultural competency
lens with.
The theory of safety two, andparticularly learning teams
since that's the methodologythat's currently being used and
we're building beyond it.
(11:16):
That's been well accepted herein New Zealand as mentioned.
And we really looked into, atthe beginning who were the key
workers in the horticultureindustry.
And people may not be aware, butwe are very close to the Pacific
Islands here in New Zealand andreally.
They're part of our widercommunity and our extended
family, everybody that comesfrom the Pacific Islands, and
(11:39):
they often migrate here to NewZealand for work, or they come
specifically to the horticultureindustry in what's called an RSE
scheme, which brings in seasonalworkers to support those
seasonal industries.
So we have workers predominantlyfrom Vanuatu, Fiji, Samoa, and
(11:59):
Tonga, who come from theirvillages in the islands and
perhaps spend three to sixmonths in New Zealand in the
busy parts of those seasons.
So we wanted to really look athow we could, as you've
mentioned there, engage withthose work teams using cultural
competency and safety, twoideas, and see if we could find
(12:21):
some new ways to to really getthat participation going, Greg?
Yeah.
Greg (12:28):
And I think there's a video, isn't there?
There's a YouTube clip aboutthe, about, with some key sort
of parts of that process thatyou went through, which I think
we can probably share in the andwhen we issue this this podcast
and put a link into that sopeople can, and have a look at
that.
How did you find it dealing withthose Pacifica workers?
(12:50):
I've just.
Spent a few days in Fijipresenting at a conference.
We know that a Pacific group ofof people are very hierarchical
in terms of how they think,they're a collectivist sort of
culture.
And and there's probably a veryhigh power distance with many of
them.
(13:10):
How did you.
Engage with them, how effectivewas your engagement and did it
take a lot to maybe change yournormal mode to be able to
connect and get trust for themto be able to say their bit?
Moni (13:26):
Yeah.
Great questions.
And those were the challengesthat we were expecting when we
went into the project and whatwe did we, we actually ran three
trials at three different.
Horticulture organizationsacross the country to test it
out and then, and get someresults from it, which we have
shared.
In that video that youmentioned, Greg we had a
(13:47):
professionally filmed andproduced video to, to share the
findings from both theparticipants and the learning
teams from the islands plusoperational management plus
senior leadership to get theirresponse.
And they did talk about, howmuch it did build trust and
built relationship with thosework teams.
(14:08):
So coming back to your questionthere about, how we actually
pulled that off and createdsuccess from it.
The, there was probably severalkey steps, and by all means,
Greg, jump in if you want me toelaborate on any one of them.
But the first one was that wewanted the project to be
designed with a team of Pacificexperts.
(14:31):
So we gathered people from ourministry of Pacific Peoples from
our Pacific team with ourregulator, with WorkSafe, New
Zealand, and we brought in someother subject matter experts
from the Pacific Community Pluswe in our, government we have a
couple of services that areavailable and we have what's
(14:53):
called Pacific Liaison Officerswho are people that can jump in,
who come from the islands andcan interpret I guess the values
and that lens and providetranslation services.
So we designed the project withthem.
I was the key facilitator and Ihave been involved in pacific
Projects in the past.
So I did have a little bit ofprior knowledge, but I'll be
(15:13):
honest Greg, and, as a NewZealander, a Kiwi, as we're
called here with New ZealandEuropean heritage, there's
always a journey to go on tolearn yourself.
And I, I would, might beconsidered a safety two expert,
but of course we all have tolearn, I think.
And stepping into anotherperson's shoes is, can come with
really fantastic intention, butyou do have that opportunity to
(15:35):
learn about another person'sculture.
So what we did is we engagedthat Pacifica expertise in how
to create cultural safety andthe starting point there was to
get the management team togetherwho were sponsoring the learning
teams and put them through aministry, Pacific People's
Cultural Competency session toreally understand those cultural
(15:58):
values that you talk aboutthere.
The, how they look upon ahierarchy and authority, what
that collectivism means forthem, and quite specifically how
they like to interrelate in theworking environment and the lens
that they have on how they worktogether and how they work with
(16:18):
perhaps, their bosses in NewZealand and we put together a
roadmap of how we thought itcould work and trialed that out
and, learnt as we went.
Greg, yeah, I could carry on,but perhaps you want to, you
might wanna draw on some aspectsof that I could elaborate on
further.
Greg (16:35):
Yeah.
It's interesting in the culturalintelligence space around
research as a, piece of researchthat's been released recently.
That sort of asks the questionof whose responsibility is it to
adapt?
The way that they are whenyou're in a multicultural,
environment the white Europeancould say why don't they come
(16:57):
around to my way of being andacting, they're in my country
which is, somewhat a little bitaggressive and possibly racist.
But I, I guess the research issaying that it's the person with
the most either perceived oractual power that has the
responsibility to adapt theirbehavior to, the other person.
And that and that perceivedpower could change depending on
(17:21):
which room you're in, and whoyou are with in that room.
It could change as I say,depending on the others.
So do you think that you felt.
That you were perceived as theone with power and the one that
should be that the others shouldalmost do what they're told and
follow your lead.
That if, and if you hadn'tjumped in, maybe that, might not
(17:43):
have had quite the same outcomesthat you ended up with.
Moni (17:48):
Yeah, those are great questions and I don't think
there's a simple answer to thatfrom my perspective and I think
it depends on context, which Ithink you've alluded to and I
guess I would suggest that thoseare things to be very mindful of
when you are facilitating orleading a safety two style
(18:10):
project, because how we wouldconstruct power in our own minds
based on what the objectives arethat we expect.
Teams to deliver and the outputthat we expect in terms of
production and the ways in whichwe expect people to work
together, whereas it, one of thethings that I learned is it
(18:31):
became apparent to me that thePacific Work teams put a sense
of family before a sense ofwork.
And I think that is, like youmentioned before, that kind of
the perhaps indigenous worldviewversus the kind of western
worldview the collectivismversus the individualism.
(18:53):
And one of the insights that Ihad, and just putting it
plainly, is that the work teamstalked to me about the fact
that.
In their culture, work is anextension of family.
So when they come to New Zealandfor the seasonal work, they
adopt us as family when they'reworking with us because that's a
(19:15):
value that they have.
And sure, they might be awayfrom home and so therefore they
very much respect that, they'rebeing treated as guests and
appreciate that and so on and soforth.
But their warmth and kindnessand general rapport that they
tend to establish with the workteams that they're working with
in New Zealand does reflect thatyou become an extension of their
(19:38):
family when you're working withthem.
Now, I think when what you'retalking to that you mentioned
before around those powerstructures, and we did talk to
this in the, during the trials,is that New Zealand obviously
was we had Maori who have beenhere in New Zealand for about,
roughly about a thousand years.
I quote you don't quote me onthat, but somewhere in that
(19:59):
vicinity.
And then in the last couple ofhundred years we've had,
European immigrants who've setup and become, as you mentioned,
essentially the dominantculture.
The fact is that.
What that's meant is that we'veended up over time becoming more
corporatized in how we run workand how do you fit those family
values into that, those sort ofcorporatized type systems.
(20:22):
And they were some of thequestions that came out during
the process which we leftorganization's with, and we've
certainly had the feedback ayear down the track that they
really changed the way that theyworked with their teams as a
result of kind of understandingthose essential value
differences and have been ableto shift into looking at
(20:42):
performance more from a win-winperspective, which has been
enabled by that safety twoframing, which looks at how do
we, how are people alreadycreating success with the work
and how do we strengthen that asopposed to looking at those
deficiencies?
So that really was the reasonwhy it was successful, just
because it was an eye-opener forall of us to learn together
(21:03):
about that.
Greg.
Greg (21:05):
Nice.
That's some wonderful insightsinto that that project.
I want to, go back to safety twoa little bit, and we see all the
arguments on social media aboutsafety one, safety two, safety
3, 4, 5, and six.
And so do you think that thosetraditional sort of models of
(21:26):
safety still have a role toplay?
Or are they becoming maybe abarrier?
Rather, and that something thatwe need to bridge in modern
workplaces.
Is safety two, the be all andend all, or is there a
combination?
How do you see it?
Moni (21:43):
You're asking me that, Greg, you know what my answer's
going to be on that one?
No.
They I make the analogy of it'slike Russian dolls.
You have the core, the initialRussian doll, which would be
like safety one, and then you'dhave a, an outer Russian doll,
which would be safety two.
And if you go for more of thatit could be that adding the
(22:04):
cultural lenses safety three,the third way.
But they all work together.
They're all nested within eachother, and we certainly couldn't
have.
Safety two, without the successthat we've had with what we've
come to know and whatsymbolizes, safety One, which
tends to be more around a realfocus on critical risks and
making sure that we've gotreally good critical controls in
(22:25):
there, and really good controlsupports, the, along the lines
of good training and support forcompetency and good work
procedures and so on.
So I think safety two really isan evolution beyond safety one
that's not an and or, and Ithink I often hear.
People feel as though they needto get their supposed safety one
(22:49):
in order before they start onsafety two.
But I would suggest that thesafety two methodology achieves
the same outcome and objectivejust with a different method.
And both are important in ourmodern day workforce is
especially Greg these days wherewe've got, perhaps.
I'm a Gen X, so I can labelmyself like that, the sort of
(23:12):
Gen y millennial and Gen Z typeworkers coming up through in our
workplaces with more and moredecision making power and so on,
that they tend towards thosemore collaborative, mutually
supportive types of ways ofworking together and there
really is that desire and thatdemand for us to shift into, to
this type of lens.
It's a journey that we're all ontogether and we're all learning
(23:34):
together, which has been soexciting in the last 10 years,
certainly here in New Zealand.
And I'd suggest, you mentionedthe safety 3, 4, 5, and six,
that we still have a wee way togo with it.
I think the more that we workout how to achieve that
resilience, that building ofcapacity and resilience within
our teams using more and moreadaptive approaches.
(23:55):
I think we're gonna be reallyheading into to good territory.
Certainly I'm working more onmethodology around how to
co-design with your teams,co-design, control solutions,
and how to measure resiliencewith those and beyond that to
look in, look further towardsthe ideas that come through with
the self-managing teamsliterature, which is around peer
(24:17):
to peer accountability ratherthan that top down
accountability and looking athow you can enable your work
teams to come up with solutions,not just co-design them with
you, but actually come up withtheir own solutions.
And then business case for thecapital expenditure that's
needed to, create thoseimprovements.
So really drive, driving off thetrust that we've been building
(24:38):
through the learning teamsapproach through, into actual
ownership by the teams.
And I think that's why thisimportant conversation that you
are hosting, Greg, across lotsof different organizations that
you talk to and people youengage with.
I think, that culturalcompetency is so relevant
because in order to get to thatsort of that ownership level, we
(25:00):
really need to understand ourdifferences and make sure we
work together as effectively aspossible.
Greg (25:07):
Yeah.
Nice.
And I guess just building onthat a little bit more, your
experiences with other safetyprofessionals that you connect
with, you work with and whatsort of shifts have you seen
when.
You start to observe that theyhave started looking at things
through the lens of complexityand learning and human
(25:28):
performance rather than justthat compliance lens, which
arguably is a safety one thing.
How have you seen any goodexamples of the aha moments that
a few safety professionals havecome across in their own work?
Moni (25:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I get the privilege of workingalongside lots of different
people in New Zealand andprobably being part of the tribe
that we've become down underhere.
Hey, Greg.
And there's some fantastic work.
I think we're in a privilegedposition where I would I would
say a good 50% of organizationshave formally adopted either
(26:04):
safety two or some methodologythat, that is safety two based.
We are seeing phenomenal resultsacross our organizations with
that.
But then the ones that havereally gone on ahead and really
jumped in and taken it veryseriously, report the fact that,
they have much morecollaborative work teams.
(26:25):
They have generally a sense ofmorale and also in addition,
it's is that kind of improvesbusiness performance.
Like one organization that Iworked with quite closely, and
they actually won the industryaward for the contemporary use
of contemporary theory.
At the beginning of the journey,the work teams were feeling a
(26:45):
little bit demoralized becausethey had some approaches where
when there was human error, theywere getting blamed.
It was what we'd been teachingfor some time with safety
management.
So the organization didn'treally care about their teams
and wanted to be doing the rightthing.
But that was how it was playingout.
But, a year later was takingsafety too, really quite
seriously.
The work teams were telling methat their their organization
(27:08):
was the best to work for in theindustry.
And they had really quite asignificant transformation.
I actually got a hug from thedirector of the organization,
the owner and director of theorganization for the part, that
small part that I played in it.
'Cause I can't take any credit.
It's really the work, theincredible work teams, who are
out there doing the work, whatwe call mahi here in New
Zealand.
(27:29):
Day in and day out that, takethe credit for that.
But I think we are seeing thatsafety too can literally
transform organizations andthat's the challenge for all of
us.
And you mentioned, for safetyprofessionals, I think it's a
bit of a hero's journey.
Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journeywhere you really need to
understand that to go out intoyour organization and to teach,
(27:51):
teach your work teams, yourmanagement and leadership, and
even your governance, how tointerpret, what contemporary
theory is saying aroundunderstanding complexity in our
workforces means, you're reallytaking'em on a change management
journey.
And I think that you might get alittle bit of resistance at the
beginning, but it, because ofthe authenticity that sits in
(28:11):
with the safety two approachpeople do jump into it pretty
quickly.
You've just got that kind of,that gap to get through where
you are trying to figure it outand understand it yourself and
trying to mentor yourorganization with it while
you're still trialing it out andlearning, but that the results
are absolutely worth it.
Greg, and I'm sure you've seenthose sorts of results yourself
too.
Greg (28:32):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Some great reflections there.
And I guess we then move into ifsomebody's listening to this
that is maybe new to theirhealth and safety journey or
looking for something else totry and create some improvement
in their own organization.
(28:52):
Given the theme of thepodcaster, the question is aimed
around what's your advice aroundstrengthening your own cultural
intelligence?
Cultural competency?
Yes.
They're different things.
But, changing your mindset isthere one thing or a couple of
things that people could do toeither change their mindset?
(29:12):
Or some practical steps to thatthey could start today.
And I guess one of them is gonnabe read your book, Discovering
the New View of Safety.
So you can't use that one'causeI've used it.
What else you got?
Moni (29:27):
Oh.
Oh, thanks Greg.
Yeah just as I'll treat that asa two part question.
The first one, and I say this toa lot of the teams that I work
with in New Zealand, I deliver alot of training and workshops
and events and so on across thecountry.
You mentioned my Motorsportbackground.
Look, I, I'd done most of theeducation that built my
(29:48):
knowledge around what we mightcall safety one, but when I was
transitioning into.
These new view approaches.
I was studying the likes ofsports psychology, neuroscience
even quantum physics.
And, a lot of those types ofmethods which we don't
traditionally teach in thesafety world, ask us to shift
(30:09):
our focus and to shift our focusonto what creates success.
So essentially, a lot of thetheory has been adopted from
many different fields, and Ithink reading widely and
learning from those other fieldsreally enhances your ability to
look holistically atorganizations and what creates
(30:31):
performance in organizations andwellness and safety to go with
it.
You've really build that broadbase that enables you to mentor
your teams.
I think essentially when youjump into the safety two
approach, you become aperformance coach and I think
it's important to, to learnthose performance coaching
skills.
(30:51):
'cause you're asking them to, toperform in imperfect systems and
to build, strengthen the systemsto support that performance.
But in terms of the educate,your education development
around I look at that from aperspective of cultural
competency.
Personally I did go on a journeyof, understanding other cultures
by, in New Zealand we are veryfortunate we have around about
(31:13):
45% of our population nowadaysis either from, is either Maori,
the original indigenous peoplethat were here, Nearly 20% of
the population plus PacificAsian and Indian cultures.
And, I spend personal timegetting to know their cultures,
perhaps visiting theircountries, perhaps attending
marae or churches where, thatare predominantly from those
(31:36):
cultures and understanding theirlens.
And then I spent a bit of timereally working out how to
connect with people.
And I've always found personallythat doing things like learning
to speak a little bit in theirlanguages, at the very least,
learning how to greet people in,in their home language playing
(31:57):
music or wearing clothing thatmight be from their culture and
really seeking to, build what wecall in Pacific, the Pacific
culture is va, which is a spaceof mutual respect and support
and, that humility, whichPacific people value so much in
terms of I come to learn andappreciate who you are in these
(32:19):
spaces and, want to worktogether collaboratively with
you.
I think there's a journey foreven reading literature or going
to cultural events and so on andso forth, to, to build that
cultural competency yourself andto step into that.
Greg (32:34):
Yep.
Yep.
No, absolutely all agree withall of those things, as you say,
reading or, we don't have anyshortage of cultural events that
you can go and experience.
I went to the, I can't rememberthe name of it.
The there was an Indian culturalevent recently with, with paint
powder that you throw up in theair and get covered in paint in
your nice white t-shirt.
(32:55):
And just seeing the ways thatthose types of events occur and
what's important to thosepeople.
And I think, why wouldn't you dothat?
Because on Monday you're gonnago to work and you're gonna be
engaging with people from thosecultures you can't help it
almost because that's just themakeup of New Zealand and our
(33:15):
workplaces and I think would bepretty challenged to try and
find ho homogenous workplace.
In fact, I suggest that possiblydoesn't exist.
And so why wouldn't we want togo and try and understand some
of the ones that we interactwith the most?
And we're not sitting heresaying, we've gotta know
everything about every differentculture.
(33:37):
'cause that's clearlyimpossible.
But as you say, if you know howto greet somebody or use some
part of a different languagethat's important to the people
that you connect with on aregular basis, I think that's
that's really important.
So we we've come to the end.
Is there anything else that youwanna, any final nuggets that
you wanna add in terms of someof the stuff that you are doing,
(34:00):
that you're interested in, thatyou want to do?
As we wrap up?
Moni (34:05):
Yeah, I think probably my parting thought Greg would be
that, hey, look if perhaps youare, you might be New Zealand
based listening in, or you mightbe in one of the wonderful
countries around, around theglobe.
And I.
As New Zealanders, we tend totravel quite a lot.
So I personally spent four yearstraveling the world and only got
to see a small part of thewonderful planet in which we're
(34:28):
part of.
And I think we've got so much tolearn together and in these kind
of, dare I say, challengingtimes with the polarization that
that kind of seems to becoloring a lot of how things are
evolving at this time.
I think it's really importantmore than ever to really connect
with, anyone that might have adifferent lens or a worldview
(34:51):
than you.
And we might not always agree oneverything or we, it's really
about accepting and appreciatingour differences and learning
from each other.
And I think that's part of kindof the journey we're all on as a
globally connected communitythese days to, to really.
To really embrace that and Ithink it's very important for
our workplaces and, safetyleads.
It's a journey that we're all onin terms of how we support our
(35:14):
organizations and the fantasticteams that we are part of.
I've.
In Maori language, we would say,I mihi you, Greg, which is, I
acknowledge you for thewonderful work that you do in
holding the space for thisnarrative, both in New Zealand
and abroad.
And I would encourage anyonelistening too, that we've done
really well with safety two,down here in New Zealand as a
(35:36):
smaller country with 5 millionpeople, we and our safety
community is very well connectedand we all know each other,
don't we, Greg?
We've done a lot and I'd reallyencourage anyone to seek reach
out to us and find out moreabout what we are doing.
We've done a prominent member ofour community, Craig Marriott
has published or supported theInstitute of Directors to
(35:57):
publish guidance material thatis basically is riddled with the
safety two language andbasically encourages people to,
to adopt the new lens.
Our regulator actively supportssafety two and has in fact had
safety two based roles in teams.
They're supporting everyone.
And on top of that, we've, evenin more recent times, we've had.
(36:21):
Case law in our courts that areusing that safety two language
that you mentioned earlier,Greg, with the workers has done
versus work as Imagined.
Hey, we're making great gunshere, doing really well.
So get in touch with us.
We're friendly, Kiwis happy toshare our learnings and we'd
love to do that.
Do connect with all of us.
Yeah.
We are more than happy to sharewhat we've learned and help
(36:41):
support others.
That's been my thought.
Yeah.
Greg (36:44):
Yeah.
No.
Awesome.
So I thanks so much for yourtime, money.
We'll when we get the transcriptfor this, we'll put obviously
connection to your LinkedInprofile so people can do that
and connect with you.
We'll put a link to the book.
What's it called?
Moni (36:59):
Ah Discovering the New View of Safety Using Learning
Teams?
The next one is the Evolving,the New View of Safety using
Self-Directed Teams.
So that will include more of theco-design, the self-managing
teams.
So if you want to be in the loopwhen that comes out yeah, get in
touch.
Thanks Greg
Greg (37:15):
You've you've heard it here first on The Culturally
Intelligent, SafetyProfessional, the title of
Moni's new book.
And we'll also put a link up tothe YouTube video in terms of
the project that was done forHort New Zealand with a Pacifica
lens on it.
So once again, Moni, thanks somuch for your time.
Really enjoyed the chat and allthe best.
Moni (37:35):
Thanks, Greg.
It's been a pleasure.
Greg (37:40):
What a pleasure to speak with Moni.
The conversation wasn't justabout safety.
It was about systems, culture,and the courage to do things
differently.
My key findings and lessons fromthis discussion include Work
being adaptive and not justabout compliance.
(38:01):
Moni shared how early careerexperiences taught her that
safety of work isn't aboutticking boxes, it's about
understanding the real timecomplexity of work.
If you wanna improve safety,start by understanding how work
actually happens, not just howit's written in procedures.
(38:24):
Learning teams unlock realperformance.
Moni's work with learning teamshas shown that collaboration
leads to better decisions,stronger controls, and more
engaged teams.
Safety professionals must becomefacilitators of learning, not
enforcers of rules.
Cultural intelligence buildsreal trust and projects like the
(38:49):
one with Pacific Seasonalworkers.
Moni highlighted that meaningfulengagement starts with cultural
respect and humility.
To truly engage people, you needto first understand and value
their worldview, not just imposeyour own Power means
(39:09):
responsibility to adapt.
Moni emphasized that those inleadership and facilitation
roles must recognize theirinfluence and adapt to others
not the other way around.
If you hold power, whether it beperceived or real, it's your
responsibility to create spacefor others, especially in a
(39:30):
multicultural setting.
And finally, safety one andsafety two are not opposites.
Using a powerful analogy, Monilichen safety one and safety two
to Russian dolls.
Each layer adding value, notreplacing the one before it.
Don't wait to be perfect in yoursafety one efforts before trying
(39:54):
a new approach.
Safety two is not a replacement,it's an evolution.
Moni's messages were a challengeand an invitation to stop
chasing perfection, and insteadstart learning alongside your
teams, within your systems, andacross your cultures.
(40:14):
If we want safer, smarter, andmore connected workplaces, this
is the path forward.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
(40:36):
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
(40:58):
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa..
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world So this episode,we catch up with Moni Hogg, who
is a senior health and safetyspecialist with over 20 years of
experience, including roles atFletcher Building and Rocket
Lab.
She specializes in the safetytwo approach and has spent a
decade pioneering its methods inNew Zealand.
(01:28):
Moni has worked across variousindustries, delivering training
and consulting in sectors likeconstruction, agriculture,
healthcare, manufacturing,energy and infrastructure.
She's recognized for herleadership in the Safety two
space, partnering with expertsin Australia and regularly being
(01:49):
featured in industry events,awards, and publications.
Just quietly, I think Mon hasalso got a love for going fast,
given that she's got a bit of anassociation with women in
Motorsport, but that's probablya discussion for another
episode.
So kia ora Moni, great to haveyou on the show.
Moni (02:10):
Talofa Greg, it's fantastic to join you.
Greg (02:14):
So let's get straight into it before I get distracted about
Motorsport,'cause that's quiteeasy for me to jump into
discussions about Motorsport.
You've been in the health andsafety world for a couple of
decades.
So when you look back.
What are some of the key momentsor influences that have shifted
your thinking towards the newview approach to safety that you
(02:37):
spend a lot of time in?
Moni (02:40):
Oh, thanks Greg.
Yeah, that's a fantasticquestion.
I think everyone enjoysreflecting back on their career
and the moments that kind ofmade the journey, and probably
two key.
Memories stick out for me.
One is that as a young woman inthe late nineties I worked with
(03:00):
our tier one construction andinfrastructure conglomerate,
Fletcher Building, and I waspart of a cadet kind of scheme
and got the opportunity to workout in the housing subdivisions
and in the operations teams asan entry level construction
supervisor.
Which at that time was quitegroundbreaking and drew a lot of
(03:21):
attention.
I'll admit, and I was able tojump in and exercise a different
set of skills in terms ofbuilding relationships with
tradespeople and constructionteams and suppliers and so on to
optimize construction and it wasa success and, I think looking
back, it, it really informed myunderstanding of several things
(03:44):
that are intrinsically importantto safety two, which is to
understand the messy reality ofwork.
The fact that, there'svariability in work every day
and it's the expertise and the,I would say, brilliance of teams
that actually makes challengingand complex work environments
work in any given day, and, tosucceed in those environments,
(04:06):
we all have to jump in and worktogether and perform together.
And I think that really set meup for later on down the track
when I, originally heard SydneyDecker, who came to New Zealand
and shared some of the researchand the thinking that was going
on in his mind at that time.
When I heard all of that, I knewthat actually what he was
talking about reflected thereality of how work teams get
(04:29):
things done and.
So coming to the second memorythat really built the last 10
years in which I've beeninvolved in helping lead the
safety two thinking in NewZealand is literally a decade
ago, 2015, when I first heardSydney, I thought heck let's
jump in and trial some of theseideas out.
(04:50):
And so you talk about mybackground in motor sport, I was
racing in motor sport at thattime.
And you have to have courage tojump in that proposition
sometimes as a female and backyourself and take that risk.
And back in those days, I didtake several risks to, to try
out the ideas and they weresuccessful every time.
(05:11):
And I was able to, have thesupport from work teams and
management teams who could seethe potential in safety two.
And as Greg here in New Zealand,since then we've been very
successful with it.
Greg (05:26):
Absolutely what?
Cool, cool.
Sort of couple of reflections,and I guess if we fast forward
to now you're a recent author,Published author and your book,
discovering the New View ofSafety talks about using
learning teams to really unpackwork has done.
And I guess not just as it'simagined, as the sort of the
(05:48):
saying goes.
What surprised you most whenteams are given that space to
learn and reflect as acollective?
Moni (05:59):
Yeah I do a lot of learning teams and I teach
learning teams, as you're aware,Greg, and we've had a really
high level of adoption of thelearning teams methodology,
which was originally coined byTodd Conklin, and then very well
supported by Sydney Decker andthe whole Australasian safety
differently community.
(06:20):
I actually think it's a steppingstone.
I've got a second book as wellthat I'm over halfway through
now, which talks about thedevelopment from learning teams
through to co-design with yourteams through to eventually,
where I believe we are headingin the future is to
self-managing teams, which issomething I've, I have trialed
already and I think, we startout with learning teams, which
(06:43):
are very reflective, and it'sreally about learning with the
teams, collaborating with themon the solutions, and being able
to really understand how I guessteams are actually performing.
'cause currently I think thatperformance is masking some of
the system vulnerabilities thatwe have in our organizations
(07:04):
today.
And how that performance couldactually support critical
control effectiveness ratherthan the lens of the faulty
worker and what we need to do tocon control that faulty worker
in order to gain compliance.
So I guess it's coming, right?
Even back to, my, my youngeryears in the construction out in
(07:25):
the field in construction.
The fact is what we are tryingto do with those learning teams
is support those teams to becomemore high performing.
And as we call it in NewZealand, it's a term that was
coined.
By our regulator, WorkSafe NewZealand, how to enable better
work with our teams.
Greg (07:46):
Yeah.
Just as a sideline, how was theprocess of writing a book?
As you might know, I'm I'm aboutto dive into that process
myself, about a month in.
How was it for you?
Moni (07:59):
Ah, Greg.
Yeah, go for it.
I would really encourage it.
Probably been one of the moreone a highlight I guess for me
with my journey.
There was a fair few 4:00 AMmornings for me and working on
the book during long weekendsand holidays.
So they tell you that it's agrueling process and it is
however, if you carry on throughit and keep marching towards
(08:22):
your final goal once it's outthere.
It's just been a fantasticexperience for me anyway.
And.
I think actually the writing ofthe book in itself is a journey
because it's actually youreflect on everything that
you've done.
You really spend some timethinking about what would help
and support others with thosereflections.
And then to put it out there andshare it with others and have
(08:43):
that good response to that is,wonder, a wonderful experience,
I have to say.
So I highly encourage you, Greg,and anyone out there who's keen
to share their experiences.
These days you can self-publishand with social media, you can
get it out there.
And there's a lot of supportiveplatforms to, to get the word
out about what you've sharedwith others.
(09:04):
And yeah, I highly encourage it.
Greg (09:07):
Yep.
Cool.
Yeah as I say, it's it's monthone.
There's been some pretty prettytough targets that have been set
by the person that's mentoring,leading, guiding me through the
process.
So we will see how that goes.
And maybe by, I don't know,early next year.
We might have something on thevirtual shelf.
(09:28):
So looking forward to that.
Hey, in the safety space, weoften talk and we're in some
ways required to talk aboutworker engagement and worker
participation.
You've been on some projects andone in particular which, you did
with Hort NZ I think it was,where those engagement pieces
(09:49):
crossed a whole bunch ofcultural lines.
So what did you learn duringthat process around cultural
intelligence and how it canmeaningfully shape those aspects
of participation that we reallyneed when we're dealing with a
multicultural group of people?
Moni (10:09):
Yeah.
Thanks for asking about thatproject, Greg.
And we spent probably around ayear for the main part of the
project.
It was a pilot essentially inour horticulture industry here
in New Zealand, and it was, asyou've mentioned, supported by
Horticulture New Zealand, whoare the professional body that
(10:32):
represent the growers and theowners within the industry, and
they were able to secure fundingfrom a ACC, so in New Zealand,
that's the Accident CompensationCorporation, which is a
essentially a state run workcompensation scheme.
So it, it was part of the injuryprevention funding that they
(10:55):
provide to initiatives that passthe criteria about whether it
would potentially reduceinjuries.
And what we did is we wanted tocombine a cultural competency
lens with.
The theory of safety two, andparticularly learning teams
since that's the methodologythat's currently being used and
we're building beyond it.
(11:16):
That's been well accepted herein New Zealand as mentioned.
And we really looked into, atthe beginning who were the key
workers in the horticultureindustry.
And people may not be aware, butwe are very close to the Pacific
Islands here in New Zealand andreally.
They're part of our widercommunity and our extended
family, everybody that comesfrom the Pacific Islands, and
(11:39):
they often migrate here to NewZealand for work, or they come
specifically to the horticultureindustry in what's called an RSE
scheme, which brings in seasonalworkers to support those
seasonal industries.
So we have workers predominantlyfrom Vanuatu, Fiji, Samoa, and
(11:59):
Tonga, who come from theirvillages in the islands and
perhaps spend three to sixmonths in New Zealand in the
busy parts of those seasons.
So we wanted to really look athow we could, as you've
mentioned there, engage withthose work teams using cultural
competency and safety, twoideas, and see if we could find
(12:21):
some new ways to to really getthat participation going, Greg?
Yeah.
Greg (12:28):
And I think there's a video, isn't there?
There's a YouTube clip aboutthe, about, with some key sort
of parts of that process thatyou went through, which I think
we can probably share in the andwhen we issue this this podcast
and put a link into that sopeople can, and have a look at
that.
How did you find it dealing withthose Pacifica workers?
(12:50):
I've just.
Spent a few days in Fijipresenting at a conference.
We know that a Pacific group ofof people are very hierarchical
in terms of how they think,they're a collectivist sort of
culture.
And and there's probably a veryhigh power distance with many of
them.
(13:10):
How did you.
Engage with them, how effectivewas your engagement and did it
take a lot to maybe change yournormal mode to be able to
connect and get trust for themto be able to say their bit?
Moni (13:26):
Yeah.
Great questions.
And those were the challengesthat we were expecting when we
went into the project and whatwe did we, we actually ran three
trials at three different.
Horticulture organizationsacross the country to test it
out and then, and get someresults from it, which we have
shared.
In that video that youmentioned, Greg we had a
(13:47):
professionally filmed andproduced video to, to share the
findings from both theparticipants and the learning
teams from the islands plusoperational management plus
senior leadership to get theirresponse.
And they did talk about, howmuch it did build trust and
built relationship with thosework teams.
(14:08):
So coming back to your questionthere about, how we actually
pulled that off and createdsuccess from it.
The, there was probably severalkey steps, and by all means,
Greg, jump in if you want me toelaborate on any one of them.
But the first one was that wewanted the project to be
designed with a team of Pacificexperts.
(14:31):
So we gathered people from ourministry of Pacific Peoples from
our Pacific team with ourregulator, with WorkSafe, New
Zealand, and we brought in someother subject matter experts
from the Pacific Community Pluswe in our, government we have a
couple of services that areavailable and we have what's
(14:53):
called Pacific Liaison Officerswho are people that can jump in,
who come from the islands andcan interpret I guess the values
and that lens and providetranslation services.
So we designed the project withthem.
I was the key facilitator and Ihave been involved in pacific
Projects in the past.
So I did have a little bit ofprior knowledge, but I'll be
(15:13):
honest Greg, and, as a NewZealander, a Kiwi, as we're
called here with New ZealandEuropean heritage, there's
always a journey to go on tolearn yourself.
And I, I would, might beconsidered a safety two expert,
but of course we all have tolearn, I think.
And stepping into anotherperson's shoes is, can come with
really fantastic intention, butyou do have that opportunity to
(15:35):
learn about another person'sculture.
So what we did is we engagedthat Pacifica expertise in how
to create cultural safety andthe starting point there was to
get the management team togetherwho were sponsoring the learning
teams and put them through aministry, Pacific People's
Cultural Competency session toreally understand those cultural
(15:58):
values that you talk aboutthere.
The, how they look upon ahierarchy and authority, what
that collectivism means forthem, and quite specifically how
they like to interrelate in theworking environment and the lens
that they have on how they worktogether and how they work with
(16:18):
perhaps, their bosses in NewZealand and we put together a
roadmap of how we thought itcould work and trialed that out
and, learnt as we went.
Greg, yeah, I could carry on,but perhaps you want to, you
might wanna draw on some aspectsof that I could elaborate on
further.
Greg (16:35):
Yeah.
It's interesting in the culturalintelligence space around
research as a, piece of researchthat's been released recently.
That sort of asks the questionof whose responsibility is it to
adapt?
The way that they are whenyou're in a multicultural,
environment the white Europeancould say why don't they come
(16:57):
around to my way of being andacting, they're in my country
which is, somewhat a little bitaggressive and possibly racist.
But I, I guess the research issaying that it's the person with
the most either perceived oractual power that has the
responsibility to adapt theirbehavior to, the other person.
And that and that perceivedpower could change depending on
(17:21):
which room you're in, and whoyou are with in that room.
It could change as I say,depending on the others.
So do you think that you felt.
That you were perceived as theone with power and the one that
should be that the others shouldalmost do what they're told and
follow your lead.
That if, and if you hadn'tjumped in, maybe that, might not
(17:43):
have had quite the same outcomesthat you ended up with.
Moni (17:48):
Yeah, those are great questions and I don't think
there's a simple answer to thatfrom my perspective and I think
it depends on context, which Ithink you've alluded to and I
guess I would suggest that thoseare things to be very mindful of
when you are facilitating orleading a safety two style
(18:10):
project, because how we wouldconstruct power in our own minds
based on what the objectives arethat we expect.
Teams to deliver and the outputthat we expect in terms of
production and the ways in whichwe expect people to work
together, whereas it, one of thethings that I learned is it
(18:31):
became apparent to me that thePacific Work teams put a sense
of family before a sense ofwork.
And I think that is, like youmentioned before, that kind of
the perhaps indigenous worldviewversus the kind of western
worldview the collectivismversus the individualism.
(18:53):
And one of the insights that Ihad, and just putting it
plainly, is that the work teamstalked to me about the fact
that.
In their culture, work is anextension of family.
So when they come to New Zealandfor the seasonal work, they
adopt us as family when they'reworking with us because that's a
(19:15):
value that they have.
And sure, they might be awayfrom home and so therefore they
very much respect that, they'rebeing treated as guests and
appreciate that and so on and soforth.
But their warmth and kindnessand general rapport that they
tend to establish with the workteams that they're working with
in New Zealand does reflect thatyou become an extension of their
(19:38):
family when you're working withthem.
Now, I think when what you'retalking to that you mentioned
before around those powerstructures, and we did talk to
this in the, during the trials,is that New Zealand obviously
was we had Maori who have beenhere in New Zealand for about,
roughly about a thousand years.
I quote you don't quote me onthat, but somewhere in that
(19:59):
vicinity.
And then in the last couple ofhundred years we've had,
European immigrants who've setup and become, as you mentioned,
essentially the dominantculture.
The fact is that.
What that's meant is that we'veended up over time becoming more
corporatized in how we run workand how do you fit those family
values into that, those sort ofcorporatized type systems.
(20:22):
And they were some of thequestions that came out during
the process which we leftorganization's with, and we've
certainly had the feedback ayear down the track that they
really changed the way that theyworked with their teams as a
result of kind of understandingthose essential value
differences and have been ableto shift into looking at
(20:42):
performance more from a win-winperspective, which has been
enabled by that safety twoframing, which looks at how do
we, how are people alreadycreating success with the work
and how do we strengthen that asopposed to looking at those
deficiencies?
So that really was the reasonwhy it was successful, just
because it was an eye-opener forall of us to learn together
(21:03):
about that.
Greg.
Greg (21:05):
Nice.
That's some wonderful insightsinto that that project.
I want to, go back to safety twoa little bit, and we see all the
arguments on social media aboutsafety one, safety two, safety
3, 4, 5, and six.
And so do you think that thosetraditional sort of models of
(21:26):
safety still have a role toplay?
Or are they becoming maybe abarrier?
Rather, and that something thatwe need to bridge in modern
workplaces.
Is safety two, the be all andend all, or is there a
combination?
How do you see it?
Moni (21:43):
You're asking me that, Greg, you know what my answer's
going to be on that one?
No.
They I make the analogy of it'slike Russian dolls.
You have the core, the initialRussian doll, which would be
like safety one, and then you'dhave a, an outer Russian doll,
which would be safety two.
And if you go for more of thatit could be that adding the
(22:04):
cultural lenses safety three,the third way.
But they all work together.
They're all nested within eachother, and we certainly couldn't
have.
Safety two, without the successthat we've had with what we've
come to know and whatsymbolizes, safety One, which
tends to be more around a realfocus on critical risks and
making sure that we've gotreally good critical controls in
(22:25):
there, and really good controlsupports, the, along the lines
of good training and support forcompetency and good work
procedures and so on.
So I think safety two really isan evolution beyond safety one
that's not an and or, and Ithink I often hear.
People feel as though they needto get their supposed safety one
(22:49):
in order before they start onsafety two.
But I would suggest that thesafety two methodology achieves
the same outcome and objectivejust with a different method.
And both are important in ourmodern day workforce is
especially Greg these days wherewe've got, perhaps.
I'm a Gen X, so I can labelmyself like that, the sort of
(23:12):
Gen y millennial and Gen Z typeworkers coming up through in our
workplaces with more and moredecision making power and so on,
that they tend towards thosemore collaborative, mutually
supportive types of ways ofworking together and there
really is that desire and thatdemand for us to shift into, to
this type of lens.
It's a journey that we're all ontogether and we're all learning
(23:34):
together, which has been soexciting in the last 10 years,
certainly here in New Zealand.
And I'd suggest, you mentionedthe safety 3, 4, 5, and six,
that we still have a wee way togo with it.
I think the more that we workout how to achieve that
resilience, that building ofcapacity and resilience within
our teams using more and moreadaptive approaches.
(23:55):
I think we're gonna be reallyheading into to good territory.
Certainly I'm working more onmethodology around how to
co-design with your teams,co-design, control solutions,
and how to measure resiliencewith those and beyond that to
look in, look further towardsthe ideas that come through with
the self-managing teamsliterature, which is around peer
(24:17):
to peer accountability ratherthan that top down
accountability and looking athow you can enable your work
teams to come up with solutions,not just co-design them with
you, but actually come up withtheir own solutions.
And then business case for thecapital expenditure that's
needed to, create thoseimprovements.
So really drive, driving off thetrust that we've been building
(24:38):
through the learning teamsapproach through, into actual
ownership by the teams.
And I think that's why thisimportant conversation that you
are hosting, Greg, across lotsof different organizations that
you talk to and people youengage with.
I think, that culturalcompetency is so relevant
because in order to get to thatsort of that ownership level, we
(25:00):
really need to understand ourdifferences and make sure we
work together as effectively aspossible.
Greg (25:07):
Yeah.
Nice.
And I guess just building onthat a little bit more, your
experiences with other safetyprofessionals that you connect
with, you work with and whatsort of shifts have you seen
when.
You start to observe that theyhave started looking at things
through the lens of complexityand learning and human
(25:28):
performance rather than justthat compliance lens, which
arguably is a safety one thing.
How have you seen any goodexamples of the aha moments that
a few safety professionals havecome across in their own work?
Moni (25:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I get the privilege of workingalongside lots of different
people in New Zealand andprobably being part of the tribe
that we've become down underhere.
Hey, Greg.
And there's some fantastic work.
I think we're in a privilegedposition where I would I would
say a good 50% of organizationshave formally adopted either
(26:04):
safety two or some methodologythat, that is safety two based.
We are seeing phenomenal resultsacross our organizations with
that.
But then the ones that havereally gone on ahead and really
jumped in and taken it veryseriously, report the fact that,
they have much morecollaborative work teams.
(26:25):
They have generally a sense ofmorale and also in addition,
it's is that kind of improvesbusiness performance.
Like one organization that Iworked with quite closely, and
they actually won the industryaward for the contemporary use
of contemporary theory.
At the beginning of the journey,the work teams were feeling a
(26:45):
little bit demoralized becausethey had some approaches where
when there was human error, theywere getting blamed.
It was what we'd been teachingfor some time with safety
management.
So the organization didn'treally care about their teams
and wanted to be doing the rightthing.
But that was how it was playingout.
But, a year later was takingsafety too, really quite
seriously.
The work teams were telling methat their their organization
(27:08):
was the best to work for in theindustry.
And they had really quite asignificant transformation.
I actually got a hug from thedirector of the organization,
the owner and director of theorganization for the part, that
small part that I played in it.
'Cause I can't take any credit.
It's really the work, theincredible work teams, who are
out there doing the work, whatwe call mahi here in New
Zealand.
(27:29):
Day in and day out that, takethe credit for that.
But I think we are seeing thatsafety too can literally
transform organizations andthat's the challenge for all of
us.
And you mentioned, for safetyprofessionals, I think it's a
bit of a hero's journey.
Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journeywhere you really need to
understand that to go out intoyour organization and to teach,
(27:51):
teach your work teams, yourmanagement and leadership, and
even your governance, how tointerpret, what contemporary
theory is saying aroundunderstanding complexity in our
workforces means, you're reallytaking'em on a change management
journey.
And I think that you might get alittle bit of resistance at the
beginning, but it, because ofthe authenticity that sits in
(28:11):
with the safety two approachpeople do jump into it pretty
quickly.
You've just got that kind of,that gap to get through where
you are trying to figure it outand understand it yourself and
trying to mentor yourorganization with it while
you're still trialing it out andlearning, but that the results
are absolutely worth it.
Greg, and I'm sure you've seenthose sorts of results yourself
too.
Greg (28:32):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Some great reflections there.
And I guess we then move into ifsomebody's listening to this
that is maybe new to theirhealth and safety journey or
looking for something else totry and create some improvement
in their own organization.
(28:52):
Given the theme of thepodcaster, the question is aimed
around what's your advice aroundstrengthening your own cultural
intelligence?
Cultural competency?
Yes.
They're different things.
But, changing your mindset isthere one thing or a couple of
things that people could do toeither change their mindset?
(29:12):
Or some practical steps to thatthey could start today.
And I guess one of them is gonnabe read your book, Discovering
the New View of Safety.
So you can't use that one'causeI've used it.
What else you got?
Moni (29:27):
Oh.
Oh, thanks Greg.
Yeah just as I'll treat that asa two part question.
The first one, and I say this toa lot of the teams that I work
with in New Zealand, I deliver alot of training and workshops
and events and so on across thecountry.
You mentioned my Motorsportbackground.
Look, I, I'd done most of theeducation that built my
(29:48):
knowledge around what we mightcall safety one, but when I was
transitioning into.
These new view approaches.
I was studying the likes ofsports psychology, neuroscience
even quantum physics.
And, a lot of those types ofmethods which we don't
traditionally teach in thesafety world, ask us to shift
(30:09):
our focus and to shift our focusonto what creates success.
So essentially, a lot of thetheory has been adopted from
many different fields, and Ithink reading widely and
learning from those other fieldsreally enhances your ability to
look holistically atorganizations and what creates
(30:31):
performance in organizations andwellness and safety to go with
it.
You've really build that broadbase that enables you to mentor
your teams.
I think essentially when youjump into the safety two
approach, you become aperformance coach and I think
it's important to, to learnthose performance coaching
skills.
(30:51):
'cause you're asking them to, toperform in imperfect systems and
to build, strengthen the systemsto support that performance.
But in terms of the educate,your education development
around I look at that from aperspective of cultural
competency.
Personally I did go on a journeyof, understanding other cultures
by, in New Zealand we are veryfortunate we have around about
(31:13):
45% of our population nowadaysis either from, is either Maori,
the original indigenous peoplethat were here, Nearly 20% of
the population plus PacificAsian and Indian cultures.
And, I spend personal timegetting to know their cultures,
perhaps visiting theircountries, perhaps attending
marae or churches where, thatare predominantly from those
(31:36):
cultures and understanding theirlens.
And then I spent a bit of timereally working out how to
connect with people.
And I've always found personallythat doing things like learning
to speak a little bit in theirlanguages, at the very least,
learning how to greet people in,in their home language playing
(31:57):
music or wearing clothing thatmight be from their culture and
really seeking to, build what wecall in Pacific, the Pacific
culture is va, which is a spaceof mutual respect and support
and, that humility, whichPacific people value so much in
terms of I come to learn andappreciate who you are in these
(32:19):
spaces and, want to worktogether collaboratively with
you.
I think there's a journey foreven reading literature or going
to cultural events and so on andso forth, to, to build that
cultural competency yourself andto step into that.
Greg (32:34):
Yep.
Yep.
No, absolutely all agree withall of those things, as you say,
reading or, we don't have anyshortage of cultural events that
you can go and experience.
I went to the, I can't rememberthe name of it.
The there was an Indian culturalevent recently with, with paint
powder that you throw up in theair and get covered in paint in
your nice white t-shirt.
(32:55):
And just seeing the ways thatthose types of events occur and
what's important to thosepeople.
And I think, why wouldn't you dothat?
Because on Monday you're gonnago to work and you're gonna be
engaging with people from thosecultures you can't help it
almost because that's just themakeup of New Zealand and our
(33:15):
workplaces and I think would bepretty challenged to try and
find ho homogenous workplace.
In fact, I suggest that possiblydoesn't exist.
And so why wouldn't we want togo and try and understand some
of the ones that we interactwith the most?
And we're not sitting heresaying, we've gotta know
everything about every differentculture.
(33:37):
'cause that's clearlyimpossible.
But as you say, if you know howto greet somebody or use some
part of a different languagethat's important to the people
that you connect with on aregular basis, I think that's
that's really important.
So we we've come to the end.
Is there anything else that youwanna, any final nuggets that
you wanna add in terms of someof the stuff that you are doing,
(34:00):
that you're interested in, thatyou want to do?
As we wrap up?
Moni (34:05):
Yeah, I think probably my parting thought Greg would be
that, hey, look if perhaps youare, you might be New Zealand
based listening in, or you mightbe in one of the wonderful
countries around, around theglobe.
And I.
As New Zealanders, we tend totravel quite a lot.
So I personally spent four yearstraveling the world and only got
to see a small part of thewonderful planet in which we're
(34:28):
part of.
And I think we've got so much tolearn together and in these kind
of, dare I say, challengingtimes with the polarization that
that kind of seems to becoloring a lot of how things are
evolving at this time.
I think it's really importantmore than ever to really connect
with, anyone that might have adifferent lens or a worldview
(34:51):
than you.
And we might not always agree oneverything or we, it's really
about accepting and appreciatingour differences and learning
from each other.
And I think that's part of kindof the journey we're all on as a
globally connected communitythese days to, to really.
To really embrace that and Ithink it's very important for
our workplaces and, safetyleads.
It's a journey that we're all onin terms of how we support our
(35:14):
organizations and the fantasticteams that we are part of.
I've.
In Maori language, we would say,I mihi you, Greg, which is, I
acknowledge you for thewonderful work that you do in
holding the space for thisnarrative, both in New Zealand
and abroad.
And I would encourage anyonelistening too, that we've done
really well with safety two,down here in New Zealand as a
(35:36):
smaller country with 5 millionpeople, we and our safety
community is very well connectedand we all know each other,
don't we, Greg?
We've done a lot and I'd reallyencourage anyone to seek reach
out to us and find out moreabout what we are doing.
We've done a prominent member ofour community, Craig Marriott
has published or supported theInstitute of Directors to
(35:57):
publish guidance material thatis basically is riddled with the
safety two language andbasically encourages people to,
to adopt the new lens.
Our regulator actively supportssafety two and has in fact had
safety two based roles in teams.
They're supporting everyone.
And on top of that, we've, evenin more recent times, we've had.
(36:21):
Case law in our courts that areusing that safety two language
that you mentioned earlier,Greg, with the workers has done
versus work as Imagined.
Hey, we're making great gunshere, doing really well.
So get in touch with us.
We're friendly, Kiwis happy toshare our learnings and we'd
love to do that.
Do connect with all of us.
Yeah.
We are more than happy to sharewhat we've learned and help
(36:41):
support others.
That's been my thought.
Yeah.
Greg (36:44):
Yeah.
No.
Awesome.
So I thanks so much for yourtime, money.
We'll when we get the transcriptfor this, we'll put obviously
connection to your LinkedInprofile so people can do that
and connect with you.
We'll put a link to the book.
What's it called?
Moni (36:59):
Ah Discovering the New View of Safety Using Learning
Teams?
The next one is the Evolving,the New View of Safety using
Self-Directed Teams.
So that will include more of theco-design, the self-managing
teams.
So if you want to be in the loopwhen that comes out yeah, get in
touch.
Thanks Greg
Greg (37:15):
You've you've heard it here first on The Culturally
Intelligent, SafetyProfessional, the title of
Moni's new book.
And we'll also put a link up tothe YouTube video in terms of
the project that was done forHort New Zealand with a Pacifica
lens on it.
So once again, Moni, thanks somuch for your time.
Really enjoyed the chat and allthe best.
Moni (37:35):
Thanks, Greg.
It's been a pleasure.
Greg (37:40):
What a pleasure to speak with Moni.
The conversation wasn't justabout safety.
It was about systems, culture,and the courage to do things
differently.
My key findings and lessons fromthis discussion include Work
being adaptive and not justabout compliance.
(38:01):
Moni shared how early careerexperiences taught her that
safety of work isn't aboutticking boxes, it's about
understanding the real timecomplexity of work.
If you wanna improve safety,start by understanding how work
actually happens, not just howit's written in procedures.
(38:24):
Learning teams unlock realperformance.
Moni's work with learning teamshas shown that collaboration
leads to better decisions,stronger controls, and more
engaged teams.
Safety professionals must becomefacilitators of learning, not
enforcers of rules.
Cultural intelligence buildsreal trust and projects like the
(38:49):
one with Pacific Seasonalworkers.
Moni highlighted that meaningfulengagement starts with cultural
respect and humility.
To truly engage people, you needto first understand and value
their worldview, not just imposeyour own Power means
(39:09):
responsibility to adapt.
Moni emphasized that those inleadership and facilitation
roles must recognize theirinfluence and adapt to others
not the other way around.
If you hold power, whether it beperceived or real, it's your
responsibility to create spacefor others, especially in a
(39:30):
multicultural setting.
And finally, safety one andsafety two are not opposites.
Using a powerful analogy, Monilichen safety one and safety two
to Russian dolls.
Each layer adding value, notreplacing the one before it.
Don't wait to be perfect in yoursafety one efforts before trying
(39:54):
a new approach.
Safety two is not a replacement,it's an evolution.
Moni's messages were a challengeand an invitation to stop
chasing perfection, and insteadstart learning alongside your
teams, within your systems, andacross your cultures.
(40:14):
If we want safer, smarter, andmore connected workplaces, this
is the path forward.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
(40:36):
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
(40:58):
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa..
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.