What a great honour to speak with Trisha a real early adopter of CQ, our conversation explored the pivotal moments that shaped Trisha’s career, including her early insights into organizational dysfunction, her transformative experiences living in China, and her work helping individuals and organizations build cultural intelligence (CQ).
We discussed the real-world applications of CQ in workplace safety, leadership, and organizational effectiveness, highlighting how metacognition and awareness of cultural dynamics can help professionals navigate complex multicultural environments more effectively. Here are some of my takeaways.
1. Shifting From Assumptions to Awareness
Description:
Trisha shares how living in China revealed the limits of her Western-centric organizational psychology training, sparking her journey into cultural intelligence.
Lesson:
We need to recognize that our existing frameworks may not apply universally. Building CQ starts with acknowledging and addressing those blind spots.
2. The Power of Metacognition in Cultural Strategy
Description:
Trisha emphasizes the importance of helping people reflect on their thought processes (metacognition), especially in navigating cultural differences consciously rather than reactively.
Lesson:
This teaches us that Leaders can improve cross-cultural interactions by teaching teams to pause, reflect, and plan their communication strategies rather than relying on instinct alone.
3. Navigating Power Distance and Voice in Diverse Workplaces
Description:
The discussion highlights how employees from high power distance cultures often struggle to speak up in flatter, low power distance environments like Australia or New Zealand.
Lesson:
What the learning?, Organizations should create psychologically safe spaces where contributions from all team members are expected, valued, and supported, helping them build the confidence to participate fully.
4. Bridging Cultural Dynamics in Safety Leadership
Description:
The episode explored how safety protocols often clash with cultural expectations, such as the assumption that leaders will ensure safety on behalf of the team.
Lesson:
Safety professionals must balance procedural compliance with cultural sensitivity by adapting their communication and leadership styles to different cultural mindsets.
5. Moving From Diversity Statements to Culturally Intelligent Action
Description:
While organizations often promote diversity publicly, true impact happens when cultural intelligence is developed at every level—from executives to frontline supervisors.
Lesson:
Our final lesson, It’s not enough to "tick the diversity box." Building an inclusive culture requires investing in CQ capabilities across all levels of the organization, ensuring everyday behaviors match the stated values.
The discussion with Trisha unpacks how recognizing blind spots, practicing metacognition, navigating power dynamics, blending safety with cultural sensitivity, and turning diversity talk into daily action can transform how professionals thrive in multicultural environments.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world For this episode,we head across the ditch and
catch up with a New Zealanderwho resides and works in Sydney.
Tricia Carter is anorganizational psychologist,
coach, trainer, podcaster, andexplorer of cultural
(01:29):
intelligence.
Trisha is particularlyinterested in metacognition or
as we say in the CQ world, CQstrategy.
Trisha is a host of the popularpodcast, The Shift, which is as
the name implies, all about theshifts that people experience
when they understand the impactthat culture has in their lives.
Tricia hales from Timaru inCanterbury here in New Zealand
(01:52):
and something that we mightdiscuss during the episode were
her experiences as one of theoriginal participants in the CQ
Fellows program.
I can't wait to get into thisconversation, kia ora my friend,
it's an honor to have you on theshow,
Trisha (02:07):
Kia ora.
Thank you, Greg.
It's lovely to be here.
Greg (02:11):
So look, I still pinch myself when I realized that we
are connected and we becameconnected, I think through
Shireen Chua, who was actuallythe first guest I had on this
podcast last year.
And so I'm really keen to have aconversation about how you got
into the CQ space.
So yeah, really just starting atthe beginning, what sort of set
(02:34):
you on the path?
Firstly towards org psych andthen eventually exploring.
CQ metacognition specifically,what was the turning point?
Was there an aha moment?
Trisha (02:46):
There was a real shift moment for org psych.
I had graduated with myBachelor's of psychology and was
trying to get work as a socialworker and was not being
employed.
I'm so grateful for that becauseI would've been a terrible
social worker.
And I was working at NurseMaude.
Does Nurse Maude still exist?
(03:06):
It's a, it was a, it's a agedcare facility and I think it's
Nurse Maude.
And I was on the domestic staffand washing the dishes and I.
We had moments where admin wouldcome into the kitchen and make
(03:27):
demands or express complaints,and I remember listening while
the chefs cooks were having anargument with the head of admin
who was telling us that thenurses didn't like something
about what we were about thedomestic, and I just was washing
(03:47):
the dishes and I realizedthere's three tribes within this
organization.
They were the nursing staff, theadmin staff, and the domestic
staff.
And it was like there were thesemassive gaps between us and none
of us really listened to eachother.
And in that moment I suddenlythought, oh, I wonder if this is
what organizational psychologylooks into.
(04:07):
And I went home that night andlooked up organizational
psychology and decided to goback for my master's degree and
do the study.
And on the very first day ofthat master's degree, I knew
that this was exactly the fieldI wanted to be in.
So that was that moment, washingdishes and thinking about how
the organization wasdysfunctional, that made me
(04:29):
realize how much I wanted tolearn more.
Cultural intelligence.
I have a distinct moment when wewere living in China.
My husband and I lived in Chinafor some years, and that was the
point at which I became veryaware that all of my training in
org psych so far had been basedon Western models.
I remember this moment ofthinking only a tiny portion of
(04:54):
the world thinks the way Ithink, and so many other people
think differently.
And then the next thing Iremember saying to my husband
after I had that revelation waswe should have had some training
before we came here.
And so that was another of thosemoments around understanding
culture.
And then when I came back toSydney from that experience, I
(05:14):
got work as an international HRconsultant.
And part of what I was doing wasdesigning that sort of training,
and then it was probably aboutmaybe nine or 10 years after
that I had the first training incultural intelligence, and I had
a moment on the airplane cominghome.
Those moments of coming homefrom training back to you and
(05:37):
just thinking through everythingI'd learnt and just thinking
that, this was a way of thinkingabout culture that really made
sense to me and fitted in withall of the, say the psychology
side.
It just gelled and suddenly itfelt like all of the training
that I'd been designingpreviously, the work that I'd
(05:59):
been doing had much more of acohesion to it.
So I remember being on thatairplane, one of those liminal
spaces.
A where you think you're betweenplaces and you can suddenly see
things so clearly.
So that was another moment ofshift of just being grateful for
getting the culturalintelligence information.
(06:19):
Metacognition, I had a series ofcoaching challenges with people
where, and it was more oftenguys.
This does not mean that I'msaying all guys, but it was
often guys going, yeah, but Ijust don't think that much,
Trisha, when I would be tryingto unpack their CQ strategy and
(06:41):
going, so when you're in thatsituation, what are you aware
of?
What are you thinking?
And they'd be going, yeah,nothing really.
I'm just.
Just do.
Yeah.
And so I thought, oh, I want tohelp people unpack their
thinking a little bit more andhelp them see the real value in
that awareness and in theplanning and in the checking.
(07:02):
That's part of the CQ strategy.
Yeah.
Greg (07:07):
I wanna go back to that the comments that you made about
your shift after the Chineseexperience and I guess some of
that stuff is now being seen insome of the research that we're
starting to see more visiblyaround leadership and I think
Dave Livermore has put out somestuff that says, most of the
leadership training is based onindividualistic societies.
(07:30):
Yeah.
Whereas 70% of the world iscollectivists.
And we are teaching this stuffand one would assume that it's
not really gelling.
It's not.
It's in total conflict, to thethinking that the collectivist
societies would have aroundthat, that topic.
Interesting that it wassomething in that sort of org
site space as well.
(07:51):
That's, so that's, thanks forsharing that.
It's that's really interesting.
I just back on the metacognitionthing and maybe your,
observations around malethinking patterns might answer
this question, but you talkabout metacognition on your
podcast and and obviously in alot of the other work that you
do those moments when peoplerealize that the impact of
(08:12):
culture.
What's one of the sur mostsurprising mindset shifts that
you've had?
Or that you've not, that you'vehad, that you've seen somebody
make around that stuff or aroundculture?
Trisha (08:25):
I think, and I've seen this one repeatedly, where it's
people coming from high powerdistance cultures to a low power
distance culture, which isAustralia as and that sense of a
greater value of themselves.
(08:48):
And it's quite, in some ways,it's quite a wonderful thing to
see because you can get thesense of people felt, oh, I'm
not very important.
And so my place in the societyis lower down and I'm not a key
leader.
So then to recognize that in thenew workplace they've gone into,
(09:10):
their opinions are sought andthey need to contribute.
And there's a real sense of, oh,I, have ideas.
I can share them, and then, sothere's first of all this
blossoming of.
I am equally important to otherpeople and I can contribute.
(09:31):
And then there's a challengebecause the challenge of
contributing when previously youdidn't think your voice needed
to be heard can be quite a step.
And so that the courage neededto speak up when everybody
around you seems so confidentand so comfortable in speaking
out in a meeting.
(09:51):
And now you realize that you areexpected to speak out too, but
you don't have that practice ofit.
And so first of all, there'sthis moment of wonder and
appreciation that, oh, theywanna hear my thoughts and then
it's, oh my goodness, I've gotto share my thoughts.
So it's both a wonderful thingand then a challenge.
And it, I think it's lifechanging.
(10:13):
That people can grow into that.
I.
Then the challenge is how tohelp them going back home again
to back into a high powerdistance culture where they'll
need to be aware, when do Ispeak out and when do I hold my
peace?
And how can I speak out withoutthreatening my leader who then,
(10:36):
might have a lot of power overme?
So it's a really challengingshift to make both ways.
Greg (10:45):
I think there's a story out there.
And I've ordered the book.
I've pre-ordered the book.
It hasn't arrived yet, but it'sabout Netflix, and it's about
how Netflix set up shop inJapan.
And probably experienced some ofthose things.
They would go to a leadershipmeeting in Japan or a staff
meeting and with a Westernmindset and say, give us some
(11:09):
feedback on what you think aboutwhatever the topic was.
And it was crickets, right?
And so what they did was so thestory goes was they went back
and they redesigned all theiremployment agreements.
Said, we will have meetings onsuch and such a day at, at such
and such time, and you'll beexpected to give feedback.
And then, went and introducedthat back to the staff and it
(11:31):
worked to treat, because theJapanese culture, which sort of
thrives on, instruction and andwhat do I need to do?
And I'll do it type of scenario.
Yeah.
And apparently Netflix, Japan isone of the best parts of that
business in terms of the stafffeedback it gets, because the
staff are not aware in advanceof the expectation and
(11:56):
understand what they're requiredto do in terms of, giving
feedback on the spot, and yeahI'm really keen to for that book
to arrive and and get the storystraight.
But I've seen some othercommentary around it, around the
place And I guess both inAustralia and New Zealand, we
see it, don't we?
When high power distance peoplecome to work for our
(12:17):
organizations Yes.
And everyone's the boss or sir,or Mr.
Or Mrs.
Or whatever it might be.
And yeah, but I guess to, to seesomebody who can make that
shift, must have been a prettycool experience.
Trisha (12:31):
Yeah.
And I was telling somebodyrecently about our tendency to
cut down the tall poppies andthey were going, oh wow, really?
You do that?
And so for those of thelisteners who may not be aware
of the Australian New Zealandtendency to tear down tall
poppies, the tall poppies arethe ones that grow up taller
(12:51):
than the other poppies and in asociety where, you know things
are valued, not being seen asbeing perhaps, I'm trying to
think of how to say up yourselfwithout saying it.
You've said it now.
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's wrong to push yourselfforward in a way that it, in a
(13:12):
way that's going, Hey, I'm justamazing and you should really
appreciate me.
And if you did that in a way, ina meeting, somebody would very
quickly, subtly, and beautifullyjust remind you of your place.
And I think that.
Perhaps sarcasm that we have orthat, those is quite interesting
to see and can be quite amusing,but could also be a little bit
(13:32):
of a rough reminder to somebodywho might not be aware of it or
not be prepared for it.
Greg (13:40):
So I work in safety as and we would assume that many of the
listeners are from that space aswell.
And in that space we talk a lotabout procedures and compliance.
We try not to talk about thatstuff, but, it's just it's part
of the.
DNA I think at the moment.
But we don't typically talkabout how culture shapes the way
(14:01):
people interpret and respond torisk.
So how can CQ help safetyleaders better understand those,
invisible drivers of behavior.
Trisha (14:14):
Yeah, it's such an important question, isn't it?
And that's why it's so wonderfulthat you're focusing on this.
I was thinking about the,preferences and the way we
think, what we sometimes talkabout as our values and how they
shape us and even that very oneabout hierarchy and high power
distance, in so many cultures,because the strength of a high
(14:36):
power distance culture is thatthe leader is a caring leader
who will take care of us.
And so therefore, we mightassume that the leader will
provide a safe environment.
And so it might not be my job totake care of safety, but I can
trust that leader will havetaken care of it for me.
And so if we've got a mismatchbetween that expectation and
(14:58):
reality, then there's a problem.
There's also differencesbetween, people's level of
comfort with uncertainty.
So some people are quitecomfortable without processes
and procedures and they like notto have too many and other
people want to have them.
(15:18):
And especially as you say, thesafety field is one, we are
defining processes andprocedures as normally a way of
creating a safe environment andalmost putting guardrails up if
you like.
So for some people who are notcomfortable with a lot of those
things that can feel likethey're being squeezed into a
space they might not feel likethey fit in.
(15:41):
So that can be a realadjustment.
Or somebody who's used to havingthose processes and then walking
into an environment where it'sbasically go for it.
Do what you like, the, that mustfeel very scary.
And so there's those aspectswhich I think you must have
already encountered.
And I know in some of yourprevious episodes you've spoken
(16:02):
about some of these things.
Greg (16:06):
Yeah, one of the again, another story from a colleague
probably talks to the savingface sort of thing where I think
it was a, an agriculturalenvironment where the farm
manager or whatever had askedsomebody to drive a tractor up a
hill and it was a New Zealanderor a Western person, and they
said no.
Not me, I'm not doing that.
(16:26):
And then a couple of otherWestern, or New Zealanders were
asked and they said no.
And it got to the sort of theFilipino and the guy said, drive
the track, drop the hill, andoff he went.
Because of that, that I guessthat that saving face thing of
not wanting to embarrass theboss.
There might've been made a powerdistance thing there as well.
The boss asked me to dosomething, therefore I'll do it.
(16:47):
And I think that if Westernleaders don't think about that
thought pattern.
Then they're gonna get thatcompliance, or that, following
the rules or doing what they'retold or whatever it might be.
Rather than thinking, gee, do Ireally want to take that risk?
And I think that would, I thinkthat would be quite prevalent
(17:09):
out in workplaces.
Trisha (17:11):
Yeah.
And because his expectationmight be that, in the classic
hyper environment, the leader issomeone who cares for the
people.
And so their responsibility isto take care.
And so they wouldn't ask them todo something that was unsafe, a
good leader.
So that model of good leadershipin that.
(17:32):
And I also wonder, if there'sperhaps that individualist,
collectivist aspect, so in somesocieties there's a sense of the
group taking care of oneanother, whereas we expect
people to hold individualresponsibility for their own
safety.
That, yeah, that they will sayyes or no.
Greg (17:51):
Yeah, I think the response from my colleague that was
sharing the story was that theperson asking the question
should have stopped asking itafter the first refusal.
If somebody turns you downbecause it's it's not felt that
it's safe okay, how can we fixthat?
What's what can we do?
Trisha (18:06):
Yeah.
There's also the I mean thereare, it's not just about the way
people think we have, andworking with people coming into
Australia, I have to educatethem.
We have a very differentregulatory environment than many
other countries, and so oftenpeople just assume that the same
rules and laws apply and thenthey can get very surprised by
(18:30):
the real difference.
And often if people don't gothrough a process of explaining,
and in some situations, rulesand laws might be there, but
again, the thinking around rulesand laws is different.
And so it's much moreparticularist thinking rather
than the sort of universalthinking we have around a rule
in law that applies to everyonein all the situations.
(18:53):
And no, you can't just say,yeah, but in this situation I
need to do somethingdifferently.
So yeah, so that we've got adifferent regulatory environment
and a different history withunions and the way that they
have worked.
And so there's a whole lot ofdifferent things to unpack with
people when they're, changingcountries and cultures.
Greg (19:14):
You do a bit of that, right?
You do a bit of supporting.
Yeah.
Migrants or people moving toAustralia?
Yeah,
Trisha (19:20):
I've worked with organizations who are moving
people.
And so that's part of what theyexpect me to prepare people for
and to become aware, help themto become aware of because it,
the person on the job is notlooking at the person coming in
the door thinking, I need tojust inform them about all of
this.
There will be some things andyou certainly.
(19:41):
I think health and safety is agood area where people are,
there is now a process aroundinforming people and so that is
a good thing.
But yeah, there's a lot ofthings we just don't think, we
just assume everybody knows.
Greg (19:56):
Yeah.
I wonder if, and it's a not aquestion I know the answer to,
but I wonder if the immigrationservices in either of our
countries, when somebodymigrates, they get taught about
language and where the shops areand the doctors and the, that
sort of stuff.
Is there anything aroundworkplace and workplace safety,
(20:19):
I suppose is the, is what we'retalking about that, that they
might get taught about
Trisha (20:24):
Only if an organization provides it, so there's nothing
automatic.
There are some, so with some, Iforget what New Zealand is
calling it, but the Pacificschemes of bringing in workers,
the government Oh, yeah, so thegovernment expects some training
for some of the, that level.
But the rest of the level, it'sup to the organization to
(20:44):
provide, yeah, it's up to
Greg (20:45):
the organization.
It's not the immigrationservices that provide that
insight.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Trisha (20:49):
Somebody who is more aware both culturally and
organizationally business wise,they might educate themselves.
And I meet, in my work I havesome brilliant people who have
been in different locations.
And so they'll be just, they'llhave their own rubric if you
like, and they'll be trying towork out where does Australia
fit in the way things operatecompared to the other countries
(21:12):
I've lived and worked.
And they're wonderful to workwith, but so are people who know
nothing because often they'rejust so open to learn because
they are aware they need to dowell at work.
Greg (21:24):
I guess that's quite a good move to the next sort of
point of discussion and we knowthat diverse teams can
outperform homogenous ones butonly when the cultural dynamics
are well managed.
Yeah.
What does it take for anorganization, to move from
simply being diverse to beingculturally intelligent?
(21:45):
And what are the, what are someof the roadblocks?
What are some of the things thatmight get in the way?
Trisha (21:49):
It, and so first of all, there's a conscious choice to do
yeah.
So an organization needs torealize that just putting people
together doesn't necessarilymean that they work well.
And when we would say that abouthomogenous populations, but it's
even more so with diversepopulations because we have all
the things we were speakingabout before, different ways of
(22:10):
thinking, different ways ofoperating, different history.
So we are bringing all of thesedifferences together, which will
enable us to be more innovative,to think more creatively, to see
things through different eyes,which will be our strength.
But at the same time, we need tolearn how to work well together
(22:30):
so that those differences don'tbecome a stumbling block, but
instead they become a step up tobe able to see things
differently and better.
Greg (22:40):
It's interesting.
I was just thinking about somework I did a couple of years ago
where the organization recruitedmigrant workers and the
leadership of the organizationwould go to the country and
meet, the people and and I guessdo the job interview.
And so they seemed to have agood commitment to, to how these
people were treated.
(23:02):
The issue that I found was at asort of a supervisory, middle
management level.
Where I could tell, because Ijust happened to be at a site
where there was an interactionbetween, one of the western
workers and one of the migrantworkers.
And you could tell that theWestern person was frustrated
with the approach of the migrantin terms of high power distance
(23:26):
some language stuff.
And the Western person wasgetting quite aggressive and
shouty.
And so I think that's, may wellbe that the organization puts up
all of these wonderfulstatements about diversity and
inclusion and rah.
But how far through thehierarchy does that flow?
And do they train their ownpeople to understand some of
(23:48):
those differences?
And I guess that's probablywhere the value of some of the
stuff that we do is that is, themanaging director probably gets
it.
But is that message.
Passed through
Trisha (23:59):
and it's, they might get the message, they might get the
philosophy that we need towelcome these people and bring
them in.
'Cause it's good, it's gonna begood for the organization, but
they might not have thecapability.
So we know, you and I, thatcultural intelligence is a
capability and we need to buildthose skills before people are
going to be able to work well.
(24:20):
Not many people intuitively workwell with people who are
different to them.
And so it, it is a skillset thatis built and it's built over
time and it's built with someknowledge, but it's also built
with, working things outthrough, through the whole
process of getting sorted about.
Our drive, our energy, gettingthe knowledge we need, being
(24:42):
able to think about people in adifferent way, and then being
able to change behavior.
And that is the CQ model, andthat's what those people at all
levels.
Management, supervisor, and Ithink the team too.
So the team itself, how youwelcome somebody, how you adapt
to having people, especially ifyou have been more homogenous.
(25:05):
And then suddenly, because weknow how a team can quickly
create the insiders and theoutsider, and that is not a
productive workplace when you'vegot that sort of tensions
operating.
Greg (25:18):
And I think even at an interview level.
If you think about a, even ifyou're interviewing in New
Zealand or in Australia, andit's somebody who's not, who's a
migrant or whatever and theycome in for an interview and and
the process that would typicallybe used may well be extremely
daunting, may well be lacking inrespect or acknowledgement or
(25:41):
any of those things.
Yeah.
So I think trying to, I thinkit's on the, and this is another
piece of, I guess research orwho, who has to give way or who
has to adapt to the needs of theother person.
And typically the answer needsto be.
The person with the mostperceived power.
Actual, or even actual power,depends on the situation.
(26:02):
But if you've got the most powerthen you know, it's your
responsibility to adapt to howthe other person is best suited
to being treated and that powerdynamic I guess could change
depending on which room you'rein and you go from an interview
into another room and all of asudden you've lost all that
power because there's somebodythat's got more.
(26:23):
So yeah.
And I think, you talked beforeabout trust.
How does trust get built?
And it's not built by the bossbeing a bit shouty at you
because they don't understandwhat you are saying or any of
those sorts of things.
Trisha (26:38):
That's right.
Trust is built when you have theconversations and when you get
to know somebody and when youare, as I think about the CQ
drive, when you are leaning intosomebody and positive about them
not looking at them as ifthey're a problem or as if you
need to, straighten them up sothat they can be just like all
(26:59):
the others.
So yeah, trust is growen and itcan take some time.
Yeah.
Greg (27:05):
And so you've got this wonderful podcast called The
Shift and you've had somewonderful guests on there and a
few just on off the top of myhead that, that spring to mind,
Sarah Black Grace Boker-Mungkajeand Rick Petry, I think a lot
about the Rick Petry story'causeit really resonated, I suppose
with me.
So Rick is working to help shiftthe CQ perspectives of his
(27:30):
sector, which is the legalprofession.
And to steal your line, my questis to to do the same for the
safety profession as Rick isdoing with the legal profession.
And in talking about hisprofession and I guess the
emergence of the need to be moreculturally aware.
Rick said, and I'm quoting frompodcast,"we need to come to
(27:51):
grips with a new reality and ifyou're going to have a
sustainable career, this stuffis not an option, it's a
mandatory part of it.
If you don't take on that shift,you're gonna be outta business"
and I guess what he's talkingabout there is people that run
their own businesses really needto include cultural intelligence
as part of their professionaldevelopment and understanding,
(28:14):
and so I guess with that inmind, and I think our listeners
would be really keen for you toprovide some takeaways and
there's already been plenty, butany specific things a couple of
things that safety people coulddo, thinking maybe about
metacognition but enhance theirown cq.
Trisha (28:31):
One of the things that struck me when Rick was speaking
was how the very training thatlawyers have.
Sets them up to be combative.
And it's just the way thatlawyers are trained and
therefore it's the way theysucceed.
But it's not the way that youbuild really good relationships
with people who are different toyou.
And I.
(28:51):
Also on my podcast I have GregDearsly, who has spoken about
the training and the work thatsafety professionals do.
And as you alluded before thefocus of the industry is very
much on creating almost theguardrails, I said the words,
but it's around the processesand the structures that will
(29:14):
keep people safe because you'redealing with real lives here.
You, it's not businesses thatare at risk, it's people's
lives.
And so if the training is to dothat, and I agree, it needs to
be, and that's what Rick wassaying too, the training for the
lawyers need to be because ofwhere they're heading.
And at the same time, we need tohelp them to see that if they're
(29:35):
going to do that with a diversepopulation, with people who are
different generations, peoplewho are different races, people
who are different ethnic groups,there needs to be a different
focus.
So there needs to be a shiftaway from.
The processes and structures tothinking about how can we
(29:58):
include these people in our workand how can we help them work
perhaps within the processes andstructures, recognizing that
they might be coming to it withdifferent ways of thinking.
And so it's not necessarilysaying you have to destroy your
profession and what you do well,but it's how can you as
(30:19):
individuals be open to doingthings differently to support
people who might be thinkingcompletely differently to the
way that traditional educationhas prepared you?
In the same way that mytraditional psychology education
prepared me from a Westernperspective.
Greg (30:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that sort of discussionleads quite nicely because it's
I guess it's talking aboutpeople like you and Rick and me
and Sarah and Grace and howevermany others we don't know.
But taking the CQ academiccontent and applying it in a
(30:58):
practical way in our yeah.
Sort of niche areas, and that isthe goal or one of the goals of
the CQ fellows.
Program.
Which you were an inauguralparticipant in.
Yes.
And with Dave Livermore.
How was that?
What was that two years ago?
Trisha (31:19):
So it was 2023.
Yeah.
23.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg (31:26):
How was that experience for you being one of the first
people on the on the program, Isuspect you might have had some
influence in how it was run.
Trisha (31:38):
Maybe.
I think it, it was wonderful andthe sense of collegiality with
people from different placesaround the world working
together, seeing similarproblems in some ways, but very
different in other ways.
But I guess all of us wanting towork together to do better.
(32:03):
So to bring our own whether itwas our profession or our
situations, and to say we can dothis better, so let's bring
cultural intelligence to it andlet's see how we can apply it.
And yeah, for me, as I wasthinking about all those
coaching situations that I'dbeen in with people, I wanted to
(32:24):
have more structure around thethinking around how do I help
people to think differently.
How do I help them to shifttheir thinking?
And so that's what led me tocreate the podcast, to help
people unpack their thinking andsee what we can learn from it.
My process is nowhere nearfinished.
I think it will be ongoing inmany ways and I'm trying this
(32:47):
season to bring more resourcesand processes out of it that
people can apply very clearly.
So hopefully that will be anoutcome.
I think the process of the CQFellows, because the the
collegiality continues.
And so now I have people aroundthe world that I can reach out
to and ask for help.
(33:07):
I have people around the worldthat can support me in what I'm
doing, and that is wonderfulbecause you can't do cultural
intelligence just with peoplewho think like you.
So you need to be knocked andchallenged and have people think
differently to you.
So it's been wonderful.
I have really benefited from theprocess and it continues, it
(33:31):
hasn't stopped.
Greg (33:33):
I guess to that last point from my perspective, I've been
speaking to mainly people in NewZealand, a couple of Australians
and the honor of interviewingCatherine Wu in Singapore, but
it's been, quite, quite a closeknit group of people in terms of
geography.
But of course, I recent, my lastepisode I was interviewing Emma
(33:54):
Jordaan in Dubai.
Yeah.
I've got a, I've got somethingbooked in for an interview with
somebody in New York andsomebody in the UK and yeah your
world just opens up to all ofthose opportunities and access
to people who have got similarand different views and
perspectives and experiences andI agree.
It's just been a greatexperience.
(34:17):
What are we five months in?
And you just, yeah the monthlycatch ups, you just look forward
to those and hearing whateverybody's been up to and their
challenges and their BHAGs.
They're big, hairy, audaciousgoals and jeepers, some of them
are pretty big and hairy andaudacious.
So yeah, no it's a really agreat product.
Hey with, that's that's beenreally cool conversation.
(34:41):
Nice to catch up again.
You've just been on holiday, soyou're ready to get back into it
and and hit the ground runningas they say.
Yes indeed.
Look forward to catching upagain soon.
And and yeah, just thanks forputting some time aside to come
and have a chat.
Trisha (34:55):
Thanks so much Greg Kia ora ngā mihi and keep in touch.
Greg (35:03):
What a great honor to speak with Tricia, a real early
adopter of cq.
Our conversation explored thepivotal moments that shaped
Tricia's career, including herearly insights into
organizational dysfunction, Hertransformative experiences
living in China and her workhelped helping individuals and
(35:24):
organizations build culturalintelligence.
We discussed the real worldapplications of CQ and workplace
safety, leadership andorganizational effectiveness,
highlighting how metacognitionand awareness of cultural
dynamics can help professionalsnavigate complex multicultural
(35:44):
environments more effectively.
Here are some of my keytakeaways.
First, we need to be shiftingaway from assumption to
awareness.
Trisha shared how living inChina revealed the limits of her
Western centric organizationalpsychology training sparking her
journey into culturalintelligence.
(36:05):
We learned that we need torecognize that our existing
frameworks may not applyuniversally.
Building CQ starts withacknowledging and addressing
those blind spots.
My second takeaway, the power ofmetacognition and cultural
strategy.
Trisha emphasizes the importanceof helping people reflect on
(36:29):
their thought processes ormetacognition, especially in
navigating cultural differencesconsciously rather than
reactively.
The lesson here is that leaderscan improve cross-cultural
interactions by teaching teamsto pause, reflect, and plan
their communication strategiesrather than relying on instinct
(36:50):
alone.
Third, we learned aboutnavigating power, distance, and
voice in diverse workplaces.
The discussion highlighted howemployees from high power
distance cultures often struggleto speak up in flatter low power
distance environments likeAustralia or New Zealand.
(37:11):
What's the learning,organizations should create
psychologically safe spaceswhere contributions from all
team members are expected,valued and supported helping
them build the confidence toparticipate fully.
My fourth takeaway, bridgingcultural dynamics and safety
(37:32):
leadership.
In this episode we explored howsafety protocols often clash
with cultural expectations suchas the assumptions that leaders
will ensure safety on behalf ofthe team.
The learning here, safetyprofessionals must balance
procedural compliance withcultural sensitivity by adapting
(37:53):
their communication andleadership styles to different
cultural mindsets.
Finally, we talked about movingfrom diversity statements to
cultural intelligence action.
While organizations oftenpromote diversity publicly, true
impact happens when culturalintelligence is developed at
(38:15):
every level from executives tofrontline supervisors.
Our final lesson, it's notenough to tick the diversity
box.
Building an inclusive culturerequires investing in CQ
capabilities across all levelsof the organization, ensuring
everyday behaviors match thestated values.
(38:38):
The discussion with Trishaunpacks how recognizing blind
spots, practicing metacognition,navigating power dynamics,
blending safety with culturalsensitivity, and turning
diversity talk into daily actioncan transform how professionals
thrive in multiculturalenvironments.
(39:02):
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
(39:25):
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa..
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world For this episode,we head across the ditch and
catch up with a New Zealanderwho resides and works in Sydney.
Tricia Carter is anorganizational psychologist,
coach, trainer, podcaster, andexplorer of cultural
(01:29):
intelligence.
Trisha is particularlyinterested in metacognition or
as we say in the CQ world, CQstrategy.
Trisha is a host of the popularpodcast, The Shift, which is as
the name implies, all about theshifts that people experience
when they understand the impactthat culture has in their lives.
Tricia hales from Timaru inCanterbury here in New Zealand
(01:52):
and something that we mightdiscuss during the episode were
her experiences as one of theoriginal participants in the CQ
Fellows program.
I can't wait to get into thisconversation, kia ora my friend,
it's an honor to have you on theshow,
Trisha (02:07):
Kia ora.
Thank you, Greg.
It's lovely to be here.
Greg (02:11):
So look, I still pinch myself when I realized that we
are connected and we becameconnected, I think through
Shireen Chua, who was actuallythe first guest I had on this
podcast last year.
And so I'm really keen to have aconversation about how you got
into the CQ space.
So yeah, really just starting atthe beginning, what sort of set
(02:34):
you on the path?
Firstly towards org psych andthen eventually exploring.
CQ metacognition specifically,what was the turning point?
Was there an aha moment?
Trisha (02:46):
There was a real shift moment for org psych.
I had graduated with myBachelor's of psychology and was
trying to get work as a socialworker and was not being
employed.
I'm so grateful for that becauseI would've been a terrible
social worker.
And I was working at NurseMaude.
Does Nurse Maude still exist?
(03:06):
It's a, it was a, it's a agedcare facility and I think it's
Nurse Maude.
And I was on the domestic staffand washing the dishes and I.
We had moments where admin wouldcome into the kitchen and make
(03:27):
demands or express complaints,and I remember listening while
the chefs cooks were having anargument with the head of admin
who was telling us that thenurses didn't like something
about what we were about thedomestic, and I just was washing
(03:47):
the dishes and I realizedthere's three tribes within this
organization.
They were the nursing staff, theadmin staff, and the domestic
staff.
And it was like there were thesemassive gaps between us and none
of us really listened to eachother.
And in that moment I suddenlythought, oh, I wonder if this is
what organizational psychologylooks into.
(04:07):
And I went home that night andlooked up organizational
psychology and decided to goback for my master's degree and
do the study.
And on the very first day ofthat master's degree, I knew
that this was exactly the fieldI wanted to be in.
So that was that moment, washingdishes and thinking about how
the organization wasdysfunctional, that made me
(04:29):
realize how much I wanted tolearn more.
Cultural intelligence.
I have a distinct moment when wewere living in China.
My husband and I lived in Chinafor some years, and that was the
point at which I became veryaware that all of my training in
org psych so far had been basedon Western models.
I remember this moment ofthinking only a tiny portion of
(04:54):
the world thinks the way Ithink, and so many other people
think differently.
And then the next thing Iremember saying to my husband
after I had that revelation waswe should have had some training
before we came here.
And so that was another of thosemoments around understanding
culture.
And then when I came back toSydney from that experience, I
(05:14):
got work as an international HRconsultant.
And part of what I was doing wasdesigning that sort of training,
and then it was probably aboutmaybe nine or 10 years after
that I had the first training incultural intelligence, and I had
a moment on the airplane cominghome.
Those moments of coming homefrom training back to you and
(05:37):
just thinking through everythingI'd learnt and just thinking
that, this was a way of thinkingabout culture that really made
sense to me and fitted in withall of the, say the psychology
side.
It just gelled and suddenly itfelt like all of the training
that I'd been designingpreviously, the work that I'd
(05:59):
been doing had much more of acohesion to it.
So I remember being on thatairplane, one of those liminal
spaces.
A where you think you're betweenplaces and you can suddenly see
things so clearly.
So that was another moment ofshift of just being grateful for
getting the culturalintelligence information.
(06:19):
Metacognition, I had a series ofcoaching challenges with people
where, and it was more oftenguys.
This does not mean that I'msaying all guys, but it was
often guys going, yeah, but Ijust don't think that much,
Trisha, when I would be tryingto unpack their CQ strategy and
(06:41):
going, so when you're in thatsituation, what are you aware
of?
What are you thinking?
And they'd be going, yeah,nothing really.
I'm just.
Just do.
Yeah.
And so I thought, oh, I want tohelp people unpack their
thinking a little bit more andhelp them see the real value in
that awareness and in theplanning and in the checking.
(07:02):
That's part of the CQ strategy.
Yeah.
Greg (07:07):
I wanna go back to that the comments that you made about
your shift after the Chineseexperience and I guess some of
that stuff is now being seen insome of the research that we're
starting to see more visiblyaround leadership and I think
Dave Livermore has put out somestuff that says, most of the
leadership training is based onindividualistic societies.
(07:30):
Yeah.
Whereas 70% of the world iscollectivists.
And we are teaching this stuffand one would assume that it's
not really gelling.
It's not.
It's in total conflict, to thethinking that the collectivist
societies would have aroundthat, that topic.
Interesting that it wassomething in that sort of org
site space as well.
(07:51):
That's, so that's, thanks forsharing that.
It's that's really interesting.
I just back on the metacognitionthing and maybe your,
observations around malethinking patterns might answer
this question, but you talkabout metacognition on your
podcast and and obviously in alot of the other work that you
do those moments when peoplerealize that the impact of
(08:12):
culture.
What's one of the sur mostsurprising mindset shifts that
you've had?
Or that you've not, that you'vehad, that you've seen somebody
make around that stuff or aroundculture?
Trisha (08:25):
I think, and I've seen this one repeatedly, where it's
people coming from high powerdistance cultures to a low power
distance culture, which isAustralia as and that sense of a
greater value of themselves.
(08:48):
And it's quite, in some ways,it's quite a wonderful thing to
see because you can get thesense of people felt, oh, I'm
not very important.
And so my place in the societyis lower down and I'm not a key
leader.
So then to recognize that in thenew workplace they've gone into,
(09:10):
their opinions are sought andthey need to contribute.
And there's a real sense of, oh,I, have ideas.
I can share them, and then, sothere's first of all this
blossoming of.
I am equally important to otherpeople and I can contribute.
(09:31):
And then there's a challengebecause the challenge of
contributing when previously youdidn't think your voice needed
to be heard can be quite a step.
And so that the courage neededto speak up when everybody
around you seems so confidentand so comfortable in speaking
out in a meeting.
(09:51):
And now you realize that you areexpected to speak out too, but
you don't have that practice ofit.
And so first of all, there'sthis moment of wonder and
appreciation that, oh, theywanna hear my thoughts and then
it's, oh my goodness, I've gotto share my thoughts.
So it's both a wonderful thingand then a challenge.
And it, I think it's lifechanging.
(10:13):
That people can grow into that.
I.
Then the challenge is how tohelp them going back home again
to back into a high powerdistance culture where they'll
need to be aware, when do Ispeak out and when do I hold my
peace?
And how can I speak out withoutthreatening my leader who then,
(10:36):
might have a lot of power overme?
So it's a really challengingshift to make both ways.
Greg (10:45):
I think there's a story out there.
And I've ordered the book.
I've pre-ordered the book.
It hasn't arrived yet, but it'sabout Netflix, and it's about
how Netflix set up shop inJapan.
And probably experienced some ofthose things.
They would go to a leadershipmeeting in Japan or a staff
meeting and with a Westernmindset and say, give us some
(11:09):
feedback on what you think aboutwhatever the topic was.
And it was crickets, right?
And so what they did was so thestory goes was they went back
and they redesigned all theiremployment agreements.
Said, we will have meetings onsuch and such a day at, at such
and such time, and you'll beexpected to give feedback.
And then, went and introducedthat back to the staff and it
(11:31):
worked to treat, because theJapanese culture, which sort of
thrives on, instruction and andwhat do I need to do?
And I'll do it type of scenario.
Yeah.
And apparently Netflix, Japan isone of the best parts of that
business in terms of the stafffeedback it gets, because the
staff are not aware in advanceof the expectation and
(11:56):
understand what they're requiredto do in terms of, giving
feedback on the spot, and yeahI'm really keen to for that book
to arrive and and get the storystraight.
But I've seen some othercommentary around it, around the
place And I guess both inAustralia and New Zealand, we
see it, don't we?
When high power distance peoplecome to work for our
(12:17):
organizations Yes.
And everyone's the boss or sir,or Mr.
Or Mrs.
Or whatever it might be.
And yeah, but I guess to, to seesomebody who can make that
shift, must have been a prettycool experience.
Trisha (12:31):
Yeah.
And I was telling somebodyrecently about our tendency to
cut down the tall poppies andthey were going, oh wow, really?
You do that?
And so for those of thelisteners who may not be aware
of the Australian New Zealandtendency to tear down tall
poppies, the tall poppies arethe ones that grow up taller
(12:51):
than the other poppies and in asociety where, you know things
are valued, not being seen asbeing perhaps, I'm trying to
think of how to say up yourselfwithout saying it.
You've said it now.
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's wrong to push yourselfforward in a way that it, in a
(13:12):
way that's going, Hey, I'm justamazing and you should really
appreciate me.
And if you did that in a way, ina meeting, somebody would very
quickly, subtly, and beautifullyjust remind you of your place.
And I think that.
Perhaps sarcasm that we have orthat, those is quite interesting
to see and can be quite amusing,but could also be a little bit
(13:32):
of a rough reminder to somebodywho might not be aware of it or
not be prepared for it.
Greg (13:40):
So I work in safety as and we would assume that many of the
listeners are from that space aswell.
And in that space we talk a lotabout procedures and compliance.
We try not to talk about thatstuff, but, it's just it's part
of the.
DNA I think at the moment.
But we don't typically talkabout how culture shapes the way
(14:01):
people interpret and respond torisk.
So how can CQ help safetyleaders better understand those,
invisible drivers of behavior.
Trisha (14:14):
Yeah, it's such an important question, isn't it?
And that's why it's so wonderfulthat you're focusing on this.
I was thinking about the,preferences and the way we
think, what we sometimes talkabout as our values and how they
shape us and even that very oneabout hierarchy and high power
distance, in so many cultures,because the strength of a high
(14:36):
power distance culture is thatthe leader is a caring leader
who will take care of us.
And so therefore, we mightassume that the leader will
provide a safe environment.
And so it might not be my job totake care of safety, but I can
trust that leader will havetaken care of it for me.
And so if we've got a mismatchbetween that expectation and
(14:58):
reality, then there's a problem.
There's also differencesbetween, people's level of
comfort with uncertainty.
So some people are quitecomfortable without processes
and procedures and they like notto have too many and other
people want to have them.
(15:18):
And especially as you say, thesafety field is one, we are
defining processes andprocedures as normally a way of
creating a safe environment andalmost putting guardrails up if
you like.
So for some people who are notcomfortable with a lot of those
things that can feel likethey're being squeezed into a
space they might not feel likethey fit in.
(15:41):
So that can be a realadjustment.
Or somebody who's used to havingthose processes and then walking
into an environment where it'sbasically go for it.
Do what you like, the, that mustfeel very scary.
And so there's those aspectswhich I think you must have
already encountered.
And I know in some of yourprevious episodes you've spoken
(16:02):
about some of these things.
Greg (16:06):
Yeah, one of the again, another story from a colleague
probably talks to the savingface sort of thing where I think
it was a, an agriculturalenvironment where the farm
manager or whatever had askedsomebody to drive a tractor up a
hill and it was a New Zealanderor a Western person, and they
said no.
Not me, I'm not doing that.
(16:26):
And then a couple of otherWestern, or New Zealanders were
asked and they said no.
And it got to the sort of theFilipino and the guy said, drive
the track, drop the hill, andoff he went.
Because of that, that I guessthat that saving face thing of
not wanting to embarrass theboss.
There might've been made a powerdistance thing there as well.
The boss asked me to dosomething, therefore I'll do it.
(16:47):
And I think that if Westernleaders don't think about that
thought pattern.
Then they're gonna get thatcompliance, or that, following
the rules or doing what they'retold or whatever it might be.
Rather than thinking, gee, do Ireally want to take that risk?
And I think that would, I thinkthat would be quite prevalent
(17:09):
out in workplaces.
Trisha (17:11):
Yeah.
And because his expectationmight be that, in the classic
hyper environment, the leader issomeone who cares for the
people.
And so their responsibility isto take care.
And so they wouldn't ask them todo something that was unsafe, a
good leader.
So that model of good leadershipin that.
(17:32):
And I also wonder, if there'sperhaps that individualist,
collectivist aspect, so in somesocieties there's a sense of the
group taking care of oneanother, whereas we expect
people to hold individualresponsibility for their own
safety.
That, yeah, that they will sayyes or no.
Greg (17:51):
Yeah, I think the response from my colleague that was
sharing the story was that theperson asking the question
should have stopped asking itafter the first refusal.
If somebody turns you downbecause it's it's not felt that
it's safe okay, how can we fixthat?
What's what can we do?
Trisha (18:06):
Yeah.
There's also the I mean thereare, it's not just about the way
people think we have, andworking with people coming into
Australia, I have to educatethem.
We have a very differentregulatory environment than many
other countries, and so oftenpeople just assume that the same
rules and laws apply and thenthey can get very surprised by
(18:30):
the real difference.
And often if people don't gothrough a process of explaining,
and in some situations, rulesand laws might be there, but
again, the thinking around rulesand laws is different.
And so it's much moreparticularist thinking rather
than the sort of universalthinking we have around a rule
in law that applies to everyonein all the situations.
(18:53):
And no, you can't just say,yeah, but in this situation I
need to do somethingdifferently.
So yeah, so that we've got adifferent regulatory environment
and a different history withunions and the way that they
have worked.
And so there's a whole lot ofdifferent things to unpack with
people when they're, changingcountries and cultures.
Greg (19:14):
You do a bit of that, right?
You do a bit of supporting.
Yeah.
Migrants or people moving toAustralia?
Yeah,
Trisha (19:20):
I've worked with organizations who are moving
people.
And so that's part of what theyexpect me to prepare people for
and to become aware, help themto become aware of because it,
the person on the job is notlooking at the person coming in
the door thinking, I need tojust inform them about all of
this.
There will be some things andyou certainly.
(19:41):
I think health and safety is agood area where people are,
there is now a process aroundinforming people and so that is
a good thing.
But yeah, there's a lot ofthings we just don't think, we
just assume everybody knows.
Greg (19:56):
Yeah.
I wonder if, and it's a not aquestion I know the answer to,
but I wonder if the immigrationservices in either of our
countries, when somebodymigrates, they get taught about
language and where the shops areand the doctors and the, that
sort of stuff.
Is there anything aroundworkplace and workplace safety,
(20:19):
I suppose is the, is what we'retalking about that, that they
might get taught about
Trisha (20:24):
Only if an organization provides it, so there's nothing
automatic.
There are some, so with some, Iforget what New Zealand is
calling it, but the Pacificschemes of bringing in workers,
the government Oh, yeah, so thegovernment expects some training
for some of the, that level.
But the rest of the level, it'sup to the organization to
(20:44):
provide, yeah, it's up to
Greg (20:45):
the organization.
It's not the immigrationservices that provide that
insight.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Trisha (20:49):
Somebody who is more aware both culturally and
organizationally business wise,they might educate themselves.
And I meet, in my work I havesome brilliant people who have
been in different locations.
And so they'll be just, they'llhave their own rubric if you
like, and they'll be trying towork out where does Australia
fit in the way things operatecompared to the other countries
(21:12):
I've lived and worked.
And they're wonderful to workwith, but so are people who know
nothing because often they'rejust so open to learn because
they are aware they need to dowell at work.
Greg (21:24):
I guess that's quite a good move to the next sort of
point of discussion and we knowthat diverse teams can
outperform homogenous ones butonly when the cultural dynamics
are well managed.
Yeah.
What does it take for anorganization, to move from
simply being diverse to beingculturally intelligent?
(21:45):
And what are the, what are someof the roadblocks?
What are some of the things thatmight get in the way?
Trisha (21:49):
It, and so first of all, there's a conscious choice to do
yeah.
So an organization needs torealize that just putting people
together doesn't necessarilymean that they work well.
And when we would say that abouthomogenous populations, but it's
even more so with diversepopulations because we have all
the things we were speakingabout before, different ways of
(22:10):
thinking, different ways ofoperating, different history.
So we are bringing all of thesedifferences together, which will
enable us to be more innovative,to think more creatively, to see
things through different eyes,which will be our strength.
But at the same time, we need tolearn how to work well together
(22:30):
so that those differences don'tbecome a stumbling block, but
instead they become a step up tobe able to see things
differently and better.
Greg (22:40):
It's interesting.
I was just thinking about somework I did a couple of years ago
where the organization recruitedmigrant workers and the
leadership of the organizationwould go to the country and
meet, the people and and I guessdo the job interview.
And so they seemed to have agood commitment to, to how these
people were treated.
(23:02):
The issue that I found was at asort of a supervisory, middle
management level.
Where I could tell, because Ijust happened to be at a site
where there was an interactionbetween, one of the western
workers and one of the migrantworkers.
And you could tell that theWestern person was frustrated
with the approach of the migrantin terms of high power distance
(23:26):
some language stuff.
And the Western person wasgetting quite aggressive and
shouty.
And so I think that's, may wellbe that the organization puts up
all of these wonderfulstatements about diversity and
inclusion and rah.
But how far through thehierarchy does that flow?
And do they train their ownpeople to understand some of
(23:48):
those differences?
And I guess that's probablywhere the value of some of the
stuff that we do is that is, themanaging director probably gets
it.
But is that message.
Passed through
Trisha (23:59):
and it's, they might get the message, they might get the
philosophy that we need towelcome these people and bring
them in.
'Cause it's good, it's gonna begood for the organization, but
they might not have thecapability.
So we know, you and I, thatcultural intelligence is a
capability and we need to buildthose skills before people are
going to be able to work well.
(24:20):
Not many people intuitively workwell with people who are
different to them.
And so it, it is a skillset thatis built and it's built over
time and it's built with someknowledge, but it's also built
with, working things outthrough, through the whole
process of getting sorted about.
Our drive, our energy, gettingthe knowledge we need, being
(24:42):
able to think about people in adifferent way, and then being
able to change behavior.
And that is the CQ model, andthat's what those people at all
levels.
Management, supervisor, and Ithink the team too.
So the team itself, how youwelcome somebody, how you adapt
to having people, especially ifyou have been more homogenous.
(25:05):
And then suddenly, because weknow how a team can quickly
create the insiders and theoutsider, and that is not a
productive workplace when you'vegot that sort of tensions
operating.
Greg (25:18):
And I think even at an interview level.
If you think about a, even ifyou're interviewing in New
Zealand or in Australia, andit's somebody who's not, who's a
migrant or whatever and theycome in for an interview and and
the process that would typicallybe used may well be extremely
daunting, may well be lacking inrespect or acknowledgement or
(25:41):
any of those things.
Yeah.
So I think trying to, I thinkit's on the, and this is another
piece of, I guess research orwho, who has to give way or who
has to adapt to the needs of theother person.
And typically the answer needsto be.
The person with the mostperceived power.
Actual, or even actual power,depends on the situation.
(26:02):
But if you've got the most powerthen you know, it's your
responsibility to adapt to howthe other person is best suited
to being treated and that powerdynamic I guess could change
depending on which room you'rein and you go from an interview
into another room and all of asudden you've lost all that
power because there's somebodythat's got more.
(26:23):
So yeah.
And I think, you talked beforeabout trust.
How does trust get built?
And it's not built by the bossbeing a bit shouty at you
because they don't understandwhat you are saying or any of
those sorts of things.
Trisha (26:38):
That's right.
Trust is built when you have theconversations and when you get
to know somebody and when youare, as I think about the CQ
drive, when you are leaning intosomebody and positive about them
not looking at them as ifthey're a problem or as if you
need to, straighten them up sothat they can be just like all
(26:59):
the others.
So yeah, trust is growen and itcan take some time.
Yeah.
Greg (27:05):
And so you've got this wonderful podcast called The
Shift and you've had somewonderful guests on there and a
few just on off the top of myhead that, that spring to mind,
Sarah Black Grace Boker-Mungkajeand Rick Petry, I think a lot
about the Rick Petry story'causeit really resonated, I suppose
with me.
So Rick is working to help shiftthe CQ perspectives of his
(27:30):
sector, which is the legalprofession.
And to steal your line, my questis to to do the same for the
safety profession as Rick isdoing with the legal profession.
And in talking about hisprofession and I guess the
emergence of the need to be moreculturally aware.
Rick said, and I'm quoting frompodcast,"we need to come to
(27:51):
grips with a new reality and ifyou're going to have a
sustainable career, this stuffis not an option, it's a
mandatory part of it.
If you don't take on that shift,you're gonna be outta business"
and I guess what he's talkingabout there is people that run
their own businesses really needto include cultural intelligence
as part of their professionaldevelopment and understanding,
(28:14):
and so I guess with that inmind, and I think our listeners
would be really keen for you toprovide some takeaways and
there's already been plenty, butany specific things a couple of
things that safety people coulddo, thinking maybe about
metacognition but enhance theirown cq.
Trisha (28:31):
One of the things that struck me when Rick was speaking
was how the very training thatlawyers have.
Sets them up to be combative.
And it's just the way thatlawyers are trained and
therefore it's the way theysucceed.
But it's not the way that youbuild really good relationships
with people who are different toyou.
And I.
(28:51):
Also on my podcast I have GregDearsly, who has spoken about
the training and the work thatsafety professionals do.
And as you alluded before thefocus of the industry is very
much on creating almost theguardrails, I said the words,
but it's around the processesand the structures that will
(29:14):
keep people safe because you'redealing with real lives here.
You, it's not businesses thatare at risk, it's people's
lives.
And so if the training is to dothat, and I agree, it needs to
be, and that's what Rick wassaying too, the training for the
lawyers need to be because ofwhere they're heading.
And at the same time, we need tohelp them to see that if they're
(29:35):
going to do that with a diversepopulation, with people who are
different generations, peoplewho are different races, people
who are different ethnic groups,there needs to be a different
focus.
So there needs to be a shiftaway from.
The processes and structures tothinking about how can we
(29:58):
include these people in our workand how can we help them work
perhaps within the processes andstructures, recognizing that
they might be coming to it withdifferent ways of thinking.
And so it's not necessarilysaying you have to destroy your
profession and what you do well,but it's how can you as
(30:19):
individuals be open to doingthings differently to support
people who might be thinkingcompletely differently to the
way that traditional educationhas prepared you?
In the same way that mytraditional psychology education
prepared me from a Westernperspective.
Greg (30:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that sort of discussionleads quite nicely because it's
I guess it's talking aboutpeople like you and Rick and me
and Sarah and Grace and howevermany others we don't know.
But taking the CQ academiccontent and applying it in a
(30:58):
practical way in our yeah.
Sort of niche areas, and that isthe goal or one of the goals of
the CQ fellows.
Program.
Which you were an inauguralparticipant in.
Yes.
And with Dave Livermore.
How was that?
What was that two years ago?
Trisha (31:19):
So it was 2023.
Yeah.
23.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg (31:26):
How was that experience for you being one of the first
people on the on the program, Isuspect you might have had some
influence in how it was run.
Trisha (31:38):
Maybe.
I think it, it was wonderful andthe sense of collegiality with
people from different placesaround the world working
together, seeing similarproblems in some ways, but very
different in other ways.
But I guess all of us wanting towork together to do better.
(32:03):
So to bring our own whether itwas our profession or our
situations, and to say we can dothis better, so let's bring
cultural intelligence to it andlet's see how we can apply it.
And yeah, for me, as I wasthinking about all those
coaching situations that I'dbeen in with people, I wanted to
(32:24):
have more structure around thethinking around how do I help
people to think differently.
How do I help them to shifttheir thinking?
And so that's what led me tocreate the podcast, to help
people unpack their thinking andsee what we can learn from it.
My process is nowhere nearfinished.
I think it will be ongoing inmany ways and I'm trying this
(32:47):
season to bring more resourcesand processes out of it that
people can apply very clearly.
So hopefully that will be anoutcome.
I think the process of the CQFellows, because the the
collegiality continues.
And so now I have people aroundthe world that I can reach out
to and ask for help.
(33:07):
I have people around the worldthat can support me in what I'm
doing, and that is wonderfulbecause you can't do cultural
intelligence just with peoplewho think like you.
So you need to be knocked andchallenged and have people think
differently to you.
So it's been wonderful.
I have really benefited from theprocess and it continues, it
(33:31):
hasn't stopped.
Greg (33:33):
I guess to that last point from my perspective, I've been
speaking to mainly people in NewZealand, a couple of Australians
and the honor of interviewingCatherine Wu in Singapore, but
it's been, quite, quite a closeknit group of people in terms of
geography.
But of course, I recent, my lastepisode I was interviewing Emma
(33:54):
Jordaan in Dubai.
Yeah.
I've got a, I've got somethingbooked in for an interview with
somebody in New York andsomebody in the UK and yeah your
world just opens up to all ofthose opportunities and access
to people who have got similarand different views and
perspectives and experiences andI agree.
It's just been a greatexperience.
(34:17):
What are we five months in?
And you just, yeah the monthlycatch ups, you just look forward
to those and hearing whateverybody's been up to and their
challenges and their BHAGs.
They're big, hairy, audaciousgoals and jeepers, some of them
are pretty big and hairy andaudacious.
So yeah, no it's a really agreat product.
Hey with, that's that's beenreally cool conversation.
(34:41):
Nice to catch up again.
You've just been on holiday, soyou're ready to get back into it
and and hit the ground runningas they say.
Yes indeed.
Look forward to catching upagain soon.
And and yeah, just thanks forputting some time aside to come
and have a chat.
Trisha (34:55):
Thanks so much Greg Kia ora ngā mihi and keep in touch.
Greg (35:03):
What a great honor to speak with Tricia, a real early
adopter of cq.
Our conversation explored thepivotal moments that shaped
Tricia's career, including herearly insights into
organizational dysfunction, Hertransformative experiences
living in China and her workhelped helping individuals and
(35:24):
organizations build culturalintelligence.
We discussed the real worldapplications of CQ and workplace
safety, leadership andorganizational effectiveness,
highlighting how metacognitionand awareness of cultural
dynamics can help professionalsnavigate complex multicultural
(35:44):
environments more effectively.
Here are some of my keytakeaways.
First, we need to be shiftingaway from assumption to
awareness.
Trisha shared how living inChina revealed the limits of her
Western centric organizationalpsychology training sparking her
journey into culturalintelligence.
(36:05):
We learned that we need torecognize that our existing
frameworks may not applyuniversally.
Building CQ starts withacknowledging and addressing
those blind spots.
My second takeaway, the power ofmetacognition and cultural
strategy.
Trisha emphasizes the importanceof helping people reflect on
(36:29):
their thought processes ormetacognition, especially in
navigating cultural differencesconsciously rather than
reactively.
The lesson here is that leaderscan improve cross-cultural
interactions by teaching teamsto pause, reflect, and plan
their communication strategiesrather than relying on instinct
(36:50):
alone.
Third, we learned aboutnavigating power, distance, and
voice in diverse workplaces.
The discussion highlighted howemployees from high power
distance cultures often struggleto speak up in flatter low power
distance environments likeAustralia or New Zealand.
(37:11):
What's the learning,organizations should create
psychologically safe spaceswhere contributions from all
team members are expected,valued and supported helping
them build the confidence toparticipate fully.
My fourth takeaway, bridgingcultural dynamics and safety
(37:32):
leadership.
In this episode we explored howsafety protocols often clash
with cultural expectations suchas the assumptions that leaders
will ensure safety on behalf ofthe team.
The learning here, safetyprofessionals must balance
procedural compliance withcultural sensitivity by adapting
(37:53):
their communication andleadership styles to different
cultural mindsets.
Finally, we talked about movingfrom diversity statements to
cultural intelligence action.
While organizations oftenpromote diversity publicly, true
impact happens when culturalintelligence is developed at
(38:15):
every level from executives tofrontline supervisors.
Our final lesson, it's notenough to tick the diversity
box.
Building an inclusive culturerequires investing in CQ
capabilities across all levelsof the organization, ensuring
everyday behaviors match thestated values.
(38:38):
The discussion with Trishaunpacks how recognizing blind
spots, practicing metacognition,navigating power dynamics,
blending safety with culturalsensitivity, and turning
diversity talk into daily actioncan transform how professionals
thrive in multiculturalenvironments.
(39:02):
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
(39:25):
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa..
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