April 12, 2024 • 27 mins
In todays episode we have an insightful discussion with someone who has experience as both a health and safety professional and neurodiversity. Tom Jones (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-jones-79052187/) shares some real insights into how we can be more inclusive of dyslexic thinkers in the work we do.
Tom talked about starting out in his creative career in digital media having known a little bit about his different approach to thinking. There was a bit of a moment for me during our chat that has shown the impact of how historically people that are different have experienced the world when Tom made reference to being special needs and the impact that the use of that term may have had on a young person growing up.
Tom found an outlet for his creative mind in his work in health and safety and is passionate about trying to evolve how we implement the various approaches to ensure inclusivity for all workers. Tom shared advice on ensuring your training or presentation material is kept simple and concise, but all this is delivered in a range of ways to suite what is most likely a diverse audience, regardless of where you are or what business you’re in.
I think my takeaway from this discussion was Toms mindset that his dyslexia has got him where he is today and that’s because early on he recognised it as being a superpower. I think you will learn so much from this discussion and a lot more if you listen to it, so grab a coffee and immerse yourself into Toms world.
Check out this resource, Made by Dyslexia. Helping the world understand the value of dyslexic thinking. https://www.madebydyslexia.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:01):
Welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional, a podcastaimed it providing a platform,
whereby safety professionals candevelop a pathway to enhance
their cultural intelligencecapability, which will in turn,
help them function moreeffectively when working in a
multicultural situation.
(00:22):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:44):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you,
the listener enhance yourcultural intelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in a diverse environmentand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:07):
might be it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
Today.
I'm talking to Tom Jones fromWellington.
Thanks for putting some timeaside to have a chat with me
today, Tom.
Tom (01:28):
No worries, thank you, Greg.
I appreciate the
Greg (01:30):
offer.
So this is really the firstin-person podcast that I've done
and we are here today in thelovely QT hotel in Central
Wellington.
Tom, you're a safety advisor,you get out and do a bit of
hunting by the sounds of it, alittle bit of bow and arrow
hunting.
That sounds just the job for asafety guy.
And I'm really interested inyour bachelor's degree, which is
(01:52):
in digital communications andmultimedia, and it included
according to your LinkedInprofile, amongst other things
some focus on body language.
And from a cultural intelligenceperspective, that's really
fascinating stuff and maybe wemight touch on that as we have a
chat.
But in the meantime, tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Tom (02:13):
Great so I'll try and be brief as I possibly can, but I
guess my story starts off incontext with all of this, right
back when I was a kid in schooland growing up in, in
Buckinghamshire in England andmoving around schools and not
being so hot at school, notbeing so good at good things and
having to be reprimanded by theteachers from not being able to
remember things or read stuff orwrite my own name and things
(02:35):
from a point of view.
And then yeah, it got testedearly on for this psychologist
or dyslexia or whatever andmentioning it and giving you a
label which then kickstarted mylife into getting assistance, I
would say through school.
So its less about can't doschool, just more assistance to
achieve it.
And I found myself findingcreativity as my outlet like the
(02:57):
arts, was a really useful thing.
I was always that heavy learner,like all the books you read I
read'em still today.
But not your kind of fictionones you're reading all the
pop-out books as break apartones with all the information,
little snippets, magazines,anything I can ever read and
digest.
And hence why probably I gotthat degree where I pushed
myself and I never actuallywanted to go to university, but
(03:18):
it was a big thing and a push inthe UK back then and went off
and learned digital media Ithought that was an out, it was
a place where I found dyslexiareally helped.
You could suddenly use yourcreative brain, you could use
technology, you could usecreative thinking, you could
find really complex things andopen'em all apart and use your
(03:39):
brain in this crazy cool way andI thought, oh, maybe there's a
potential for a living in it.
But yeah, found myself doinghundreds of different jobs all
over the world, traveled theworld.
Also got some medical trainingfrom other jobs and moved here,
there and everywhere.
Actually in context of this aswell, taught some special I
(03:59):
gotta say it, special needspeople.
We talked about this earlier.
But I, yeah.
For my whole life it was alwaysspecial needs training or
special needs teaching andspecial needs or whatever.
And I thought the things Ilearned through school of how I
achieved it to give back.
And I had a short stint at a jobteaching people who were deaf,
blind, autism, other dyslexics.
(04:20):
In England, when you go touniversity, you go and get some
money to go to university if youtick the box of having, a
special need you got a computerand some software and stuff to
go and train some of that.
And then, yeah, long long storyshort, take away half of all my
life, but ended up in the sunnyWellington.
Met my wife and found myselfsomehow in health and safety,
but.
I think safety is one of thoseamazing industries where you can
(04:42):
be all over everything.
You can be out on every floor ofa business in every part of it,
in finance, through to the, onthe ground, on the tools,
through to, if you want to godown a specialist route, you
can.
You can be a generalist.
You can just open your brain andcreativity and dyslexia and
safety just goes sohand-in-hand, it's, unreal.
(05:03):
So I found myself somehow hereand loving it.
Greg (05:06):
Excellent.
So help me out here.
We know that in many businesses,in New Zealand, in fact, most
businesses in New Zealand, wecould say that probably about
10% of the employees in anybusiness in New Zealand is are
going to be dyslexic people.
And if I am that safety personand I'm delivering a training
session or I'm doing aninduction, or I'm leading a
(05:31):
toolbox talk or a committeemeeting, or even just having a
one-on-one discussion with aworker on whatever, what are
some of the things that I shouldthink about when I'm designing
my presentation or my trainingcourse or my talking points on
the basis that there could be adyslexic person who's part of
(05:52):
the audience.
Tom (05:53):
Really good question, look, I'm gonna be broad and I think
we've had conversations aboutthis in the past, but singling
it out and just saying dyslexiais a difficult one, I think my
advice on this would beapplicable to anybody with
potentially every kind ofdisability as such, or
neurodiversity or whatever you.
Keep it simple, keep it simpleand concise.
(06:15):
When I say that, take thecomplex and rip out apart the
bits that really needed.
So every one of us has got likea finite amount of information
load you can take in.
I think with dyslexics I'm notgonna speak for every dyslexic,
but for definitely for me, Ilike the visuals I learn from
touch and kinetic learning, Ilike technical information, but
(06:36):
not everyone does.
I think when someone keeps itdiverse, so you're not just
drained on a piece of reading.
Definitely I can't handle thedystopia, and I don't think many
of us could.
If I came in and said, here's mytraining, and it's all in just
like size 12, Times New Romanhere just read this and tell me
what you thought.
You'd be like, nah.
So yeah, nice big visuals.
(06:58):
Keep it simple and talk to thepoints that you're doing.
And then practical, if you'retalking about rope safety, get
the ropes out and start tyingsome knots or showing people how
to do'em.
If we're talking about confinedspace, photos, visuals, a short
video.
Talk about your expertise and Ialways say stories, literally
I'm a sucker for stories.
If you tell me a story about it.
(07:19):
I'll remember it.
I remember all the Todd Conklinkind of videos and stuff.
I remember all of those advisorysessions.
'cause he tells a whole longstory.
And he just come away from itremembering all these and I can
then retell that story.
And I think us as human beingspsychologically go on the
storytelling thing as a means ofactually doing it.
So those tools, keeping itsimple, making a story,
visualizing and you're coveringall your bases there.
(07:41):
You've got specialities in allpeople.
Greg (07:43):
And I guess we're starting to see a lot of that
conversation happening about howto make a toolbox talk more
engaging.
Gone are the days while maybethey're not gone, but they
should be where there's asupervisor standing up at the
front of the room with a JSEAyelling at a bunch of guys on
the building site, most of whomare hiding behind their dark
glasses and some of them arestanding 20 feet away and are
(08:06):
not particularly, engaged inthat discussion.
So the visualisation is I thinkbecoming more and more something
that, that people are learningto do.
Tom (08:13):
Talk to that point.
Thinking about this with what'scalled equitable outcomes or
whatever, we've got lot ofFilipino workers and then
laborers, all sorts of peoplefrom different backgrounds.
And I think the reading age ofconstruction industry is like 12
average.
I always think about if it's toohard for me, it is.
It's too hard for others aswell.
And I love that whole practical,grab the people out, the
audience, grab a ladder, put iton the ground, put the person
(08:35):
lying on the ground, ask'em tojoin in, make a little drama or
whatever, and talk to your pointof this is what ladder safety
is.
Or maybe grab some harnesses andclip'em onto a fence and say,
no, it doesn't go on the fence,this is not an anchor.
I'm visually showing them whereit is a good anchor point where
it's not a good anchor point.
I'll let read the book, read themanual on this before, just if
(08:56):
you have props and you are usingthose props and those are the
props that they really see inthe real world, brilliant.
Greg (09:02):
That's cool.
So I'm in the moment I'mdelivering my presentation or my
induction in whatever form thispresentation might be.
How might I tell that somebodyin the audience might be
struggling to interpret what I'msaying or read the content that
I've provided to them, whetherit be on a screen or on a bit of
(09:23):
paper.
Or even if there's some sort oftest, we're a little bit
fascinated, aren't we with the20 questions after the training
session.
And you've gotta write theanswers down in some way because
we think that's gonna prove thatI've read and understood the
content.
How am I gonna identify that ifI'm standing at the front of the
room and one of my teammates orclassmates or workers is having
(09:44):
a hard time.
Tom (09:46):
It's a really broad one I think.
I think there's two parts tothis I wanna answer.
One is not be afraid to ask theroom whether anyone is
struggling.
Whether anyone is or straight upjust asking, is anyone got any?
And I think a lot I saying thatsome people will just not tell
you straight up.
Don't tell you, someone likemyself would be like, hands up,
dyslexia.
These are all you need, but totell, I think you can start
(10:07):
seeing the body language ofpeople drifting, switching off
playing.
Technology these days playingwith your phone.
You've got day dreaming.
You start looking off, you'vegot the left-hand side.
If you see people reminiscingsomething or learning and
remembering.
But I always think if you, everynow and then interject with a
question about has anyone everhad any similar experiences,
what are your thoughts?
Or picking on a person thatlooks like they're drifting and
(10:29):
not in a bad way, just sayingokay, so we've just talked about
this or whatever it is, and notpunishing necessarily for
switching off because actuallybrains drift.
We are listening and we'rehearing, but we're also
reminiscing of something that isapparently like relevant to what
you're talking about.
And I did it you were literallytalking right then I do it right
then.
It is not because I'm beingrude, it's because my brain goes
off on a little tangent andstarts thinking about things and
(10:51):
reminiscing the times to answeryour question.
The written test stuff whereyou're like, what was on line
four of seven and what did Jim'sname and what color t-shirt was
he wearing?
I'll be awful at that.
Recollection of words on paperaren't my forte.
So if you know someone can't dothat necessarily so well, is
(11:12):
there another test forcompetency?
I'm always into the physical.
Show me, play around with it.
Can you actually do that knotcan you actually do that clip?
Show me that you can screw that.
Run me through visually, run methrough practically what it is.
If the forklift needs to have acheck in certain way is the
check sheet the best way?
Is it just showing me that thisis taking it in?
I think point, looking at peoplein the audience.
(11:33):
They might not just have a,you'd say special need, but they
might not have dyslexia.
They might not have it.
I don't know.
They could just be switching offbecause your conversation's not
that enlightening.
I dunno it could be that they'restruggling.
And if they are struggling, Ithink that again comes back to
that open conversation ofrecognizing that you could have
(11:53):
a number of differentdisabilities in the room or
neuro diversities in the room.
And I don't think you could gothrough naming every one of'em.
Do you have this?
Do you have this?
Do you have this?
Do you have this?
And if they're not forthcomingwith that, then you are just
gonna have to keep it simpleplay to all the different
kinetic learning.
Greg (12:08):
I think maybe we'll make a comment about this later but the
whole neurodiversity thing is aninvisible issue, isn't it?
You can't see it like you canmaybe some other forms of
diversity.
So you don't know, as you sayunless somebody's willing to
tell.
Now that's really reallyvaluable stuff.
I guess thinking about the nextpiece, you know reflective
(12:29):
practice is a really importantpart of our professional
development, we've done someplanning we've delivered our
training session or whatever itmight be.
The next piece is that piece ofreflection and how did it go and
what are some of the questionsthat I might ask myself if I
have been in that room andexperienced that sudden
(12:50):
awareness that there's somebodyin the room that's not feeling
included?
What are some of the questionsthat I might ask myself in order
that next time I'm betterprepared?
Tom (13:02):
I think I've been in these situations.
I've gone and this is me goingoff on an information grab.
I go off and try and learn.
I kind try and go, what is itthat I am dealing with here?
I'm dealing with the whole ofour nation of all the different
possible variations ofdisabilities or neurodiversities
(13:23):
and so on.
So I would go off and go saysomeone, you specifically talk
in the context of dyslexia, andsomeone certainly found out that
was during the class and youdon't feel like they were
included or you didn't prepareyour material ahead of time.
There's a wealth of informationout there online.
I think we talked about thedesign by Dyslexia stuff.
(13:44):
I would go out there and learn abit about it.
This great websites, this greatunderstandings of what their
strengths are.
And not taking it as a what arethe negatives of this ability
that I have to try and make mymaterial fit.
Its actually what are thepositives of that ability, what
are their abilities andstrengths and how do I play to
them?
Rather than thinking, how do Iplay my material down?
It's, how do I make it morecreatively engaging?
(14:08):
How do I make it more likeproblem-solving?
I think some disabilities,dyslexics love problems.
They love problem solving.
So give them problems to solve.
Give them some task work to do.
I went to a really interestingtraining session the other day
held by Land Search and Rescue.
There's two guys that ran thisthing, and I remember this being
(14:28):
one of the best overall.
They encompassed, I think, everytype of disability and.
We were straight outta the room,running around finding flowers
and a stone and a rock orwhatever, and you come back in
and then the next minute we'resitting down and if, but every
single part of the entire daywas a part of training.
It was how they communicated toyou, how they pointed, how they
got people to stand up, how theydid a, like a book work lesson,
(14:52):
and so on.
I reflected on that wholetraining session.
It wasn't mine that I didn'tgive, but I reflected on, I
said.
Variation is key, you can'tplease everybody.
Yes.
So try and do something that anyeveryone can engage in.
And I can't remember all thedifferent types.
There's a kinetic learning
Greg (15:09):
VARC isn't it?
Visual, audio, reading andkinesthetic.
Tom (15:15):
So when I used to deliver training and SOPs and stuff in
manufacturing.
I'd ask people what they'rethinking and they often, they
didn't even know.
So then I'm like, okay, here'sthe SOP that was worthy.
Here's a little competencytesting that made you understand
whether you read the thing ornot.
And then you go out and youstart playing with a buttons on
the machine.
Then you visually tell'em, no,don't touch this thing it hurts
(15:38):
you.
You can touch this one, andthere, this is what we're gotta
do.
And then you run'em through andthen you give'em some time to go
and fail.
Because I think it's importantto fail.
And then say.
Failure's not bad.
Cool, did you learn from thatmistake?
And break it right down tosimplistic and imagine you're
trying to teach a child.
If you haven't got kids, youhaven't got'em.
But yeah, think about the whole,I always say the dishwasher
(15:59):
test.
If you're trying to explain tosomeone how to use a dishwasher,
right back to the beginning ofthis is what I expect, this is
my outcome I wanna see.
And then you put it in there andyou show your kids how to do it,
and then they fail and they bekids and that.
I think we're adults.
We'll just do same as kids.
Yeah.
To come back to your question isdon't be harsh on yourself
reflecting.
(16:20):
Just try and make it verydifferent.
Greg (16:22):
Variation.
Cool.
I just wanna reflect back on,there you go.
I wanna reflect back on what yousaid right at the beginning.
You talked a little bit about.
I guess your experiences offinding out that you were a
dyslexic person and that it was,sounds like that was quite early
on in your schooling time and Ithink back to, the New Zealand
(16:42):
experience and I went to apresentation by a chap who works
in the education system here inNew Zealand.
He's not dyslexic himself, buthis brother and his father were,
and one of the things that justfloored me with his presentation
was that the Ministry ofEducation in New Zealand didn't
recognise dyslexia as a thinguntil 2007.
(17:05):
Now, that was only.
15 years ago or something andyou know, and you've used the
term, and I know you don't likeusing it, but the special needs
term, which you've you've usedit because that's what you were
brought up as thinking ofyourself as a special, where you
were in a special needs classand you had to do a special
needs this, that and the other.
(17:25):
And that's, I guess that's notwhat we're about these days.
And neurodiversity is this newsort of term that, we try and
use.
But yeah, I wonder if in NewZealand we're like many things a
little bit behind the eight ballwith some of the development of
understanding this stuff.
We talk about health and safetyis 20 years behind the uk and
(17:47):
and then you find out that thisdyslexia thing has only been
recognised by the government,effectively as something that
needs to be.
Understood only, 15 or 16 yearsago, as I say, it floored me
when I heard that and I guess itjust makes you wonder how kids
that grew up in New Zealandprior to that have developed in
(18:08):
their careers.
And I know in the UK, I believedyslexia is specifically
mentioned in theanti-discrimination legislation,
apparently, this is what thisguy mentioned.
He had been in the uk and andhad researched and done a lot of
work in that space.
And yes, okay, New Zealand,we've got our own
anti-discrimination laws, but.
(18:30):
Generally, they're notparticularly specific in terms
of what types of discrimination.
It's left up to the imagination,in most cases.
So yeah, it just, it's maybe itseems that yet again, we're a
little bit little bit backwardssometimes in some of these
things.
So we are almost at time butwhat I'd like you to do, if you
can is maybe give us top threeor four tips that you might have
(18:52):
for individuals, health andsafety people teams within a
workplace to make sure that thethings that they're doing is
more inclusive of people that,that might be in that
neurodiversity sort of space.
Have you got any top tips?
And you've mentioned a few ofthem already, but maybe let's
just reflect on those.
Tom (19:12):
So many, keep it simple that's my go-to thing.
And I don't mean it in terms ofjust dyslexia, but.
Everything we do everything wedo within safety, safety's
complex right, doesn't mean wecan't be clear about it.
And when I say simple, I don'tnecessarily mean making it bare
bones and not it's clarity.
And I mean that in every singlepart we do when we're developing
(19:36):
complex documents through toSSSPs, JSAs, all these things,
SWMS, whatever you wanna call'em, through to communication.
If we're communicating with eachother, we're trying to include
everybody.
We've gotta, I always say bringour information to the lowest
denominator.
So if I've got a, I'm notpicking on Filipino workers its
(19:59):
just because I have been workingwith a lot of fantastic people.
Incredibly intelligent, butwe're trying to include them in
our information flow.
We've also gotta includedyslexic and other
neurodiversities.
We've also gotta include peoplewith limited, like project
managers with a lot going on orblooming CEOs with so many
things and safety is literallyjust a nugget of what they do in
(20:21):
their life and you've gotta getsome key information across.
So keeping it clear, keeping itsimple.
And I think safety will win alot more of our battles we're
trying to achieve.
And then, for those of safetyprofessionals out there or those
trying to include them.
Dyslexia is a superpower like itreally is, I'm trying to
implore, I always try and beopen with people so that it's
used more in common language,that we've, recognizing that I'm
(20:44):
proud of everything I do,dyslexia is literally assisted
me to be where I'm today.
I would never be anywhere near.
Had I not recognized it or beenrecognized earlier on, but it's
a superpower.
And I wrote some of the thingsdown I mentioned to you earlier
on, but like visualizing, theseare things that statistically on
these websites that like made bydyslexia, they're like
(21:04):
eighty-four percent ofdyslexics, incredible
visualizations skills,connecting, exploring,
imagining, communicating,reasoning, skills, lateral
thinking, complex problemsolving and interpersonal skills
and like just to name a few.
Those are things that employeesare looking for and not to be
necessarily thinking of it as adisability.
(21:27):
I know we use the term sometimesthroughout this book, and it is
a huge ability as long as weknow to capture it.
And then I think my final kindof third thing, being more
practical and not creatingsafety for safety people.
So we're trying to make safetyfor inclusivity of it.
It's a communication tool, weare communicators and we're
influencers at heart.
(21:48):
We, we are trying to.
Push the good word of gettinghome at the end of the day.
To do that, we often need to dopractical skills, we need to get
people to buy into our ideas.
We need to influencestakeholders above and below and
to communicate with those peopleor those masses of people,
whatever we need influencingskills and we need communication
(22:10):
tools.
And I think if we think likeyou're doing here now.
Getting people thinking abouthow we communicate with people
with neurodiversity is a greatway to just realize how we can
communicate with our entirenation to our entire workforce.
Whether they've gotneurodiversities or not, or
whether they're just at anystage in their career or life or
(22:31):
whatever..
Greg (22:31):
Look that's awesome, and I think we've heard lots in a
whole range of differentconversations around how if you
do things.
To be inclusive of people with aneurodiverse situation actually,
it suits the majority, if notall of the rest of the
population because it's allabout simplicity, it's all about
(22:54):
clarity and those sorts ofthings.
So that's awesome.
I think you've mentioned it acouple of times and we'll put it
into the show notes.
A link to the Richard Branson'sMade by Dyslexia.
So we'll put a link to that.
I think they've got a websiteand they've got a whole bunch of
resources that, can be helpful.
I think I've done one of thetraining courses, which I shared
on LinkedIn a few months ago.
(23:14):
I just, I think it was actuallyan hour long, so it was, it was
quite comprehensive.
To just to go through that andunderstand some of the concepts
behind that.
But look, I think that's beenreally super helpful.
And we, I just, repeat againthat, that neurodiversity is a
bit of an invisible form ofdiversity.
It's not.
(23:34):
Visually apparent.
And if you are delivering somesort of training session or just
engaging with another person it,it just may be that your message
isn't getting through becauseyou haven't taken that into
consideration as to how youmight need to change your
behavior or your delivery orwhatever it might be.
So really valuable stuff and itis about inclusion and it's been
(23:57):
awesome to chat and thanks verymuch for putting your time aside
today.
And anything else you wanna justfinally finish off with any
pearls of wisdom or are we donefor the day?
Tom (24:07):
I don't think there's anymore.
I just.
If you're dyslexic and you thinkyou might like safety, I think
it's a fantastic career choicefor them.
I think with somebody with it isthat kind of superpower I think
is so much enjoyment and abilityto play with the great brain
that people have.
Greg (24:24):
Awesome cheers Tom.
Tom (24:25):
No worries.
Thank you much.
Greg (24:28):
What a great insightful discussion with someone who has
experience on both sides of thesubject.
Tom shared some real insightsinto how we can be more
inclusive of dyslexic thinkersin the work that we do.
Tom talked about starting out inhis creative career in digital
media, having known a little bitabout as different approach to
(24:50):
thinking.
There was a bit of a moment forme during our chat that has
shown the impact of howhistorically people that are
different have experienced theworld.
Tom made reference to beingspecial needs and the impact
that the use of that term mayhave had on a young person
growing up.
(25:12):
Tom found a creative outlet forhis creative mind in the work in
health and safety and he'spassionate about trying to
evolve how we implement thevarious approaches to ensure
inclusivity for all workers.
Tom shared advice on ensuringthat you're training
presentation material is keptsimple and concise, but all of
(25:32):
this is also delivered in arange of ways to suit what is
most likely a really diverseaudience regardless of where you
are or what business you're in.
Think about how you assessunderstanding.
I think many would agree, a bitof paper that says, please sign
here to confirm yourunderstanding.
(25:54):
Is entirely ineffective.
Tom's words we're pretty clear,as a dyslexic person recalling
words on a page isn't his forte.
I think my takeaway from thisdiscussion was Tom's mindset
that his dyslexia has got himwhere he is today, and that's
because he recognized early onthat it was his superpower.
(26:19):
I think you will learn so muchfrom this discussion and a lot
more, if you listened to it.
So I'm not going to dissect itany further than this.
Grab a coffee and immerseyourself into Tom's world.
We've come to the end of thisepisode.
Thanks so much for listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
(26:41):
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed.
(27:01):
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast I'd reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week, we talked to a AfelePaea who has come through
(27:24):
various roles with CorrectionsWorkSafe and the Puataunofo
team, he's been a consultant andis currently the SHEQ manager
with Landscape Solutions.
Until then, thanks again fortuning into the Culturally
Intelligent Safety Professional.
Ka Kitei.
Welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional, a podcastaimed it providing a platform,
whereby safety professionals candevelop a pathway to enhance
their cultural intelligencecapability, which will in turn,
help them function moreeffectively when working in a
multicultural situation.
(00:22):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:44):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you,
the listener enhance yourcultural intelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in a diverse environmentand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:07):
might be it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
Today.
I'm talking to Tom Jones fromWellington.
Thanks for putting some timeaside to have a chat with me
today, Tom.
Tom (01:28):
No worries, thank you, Greg.
I appreciate the
Greg (01:30):
offer.
So this is really the firstin-person podcast that I've done
and we are here today in thelovely QT hotel in Central
Wellington.
Tom, you're a safety advisor,you get out and do a bit of
hunting by the sounds of it, alittle bit of bow and arrow
hunting.
That sounds just the job for asafety guy.
And I'm really interested inyour bachelor's degree, which is
(01:52):
in digital communications andmultimedia, and it included
according to your LinkedInprofile, amongst other things
some focus on body language.
And from a cultural intelligenceperspective, that's really
fascinating stuff and maybe wemight touch on that as we have a
chat.
But in the meantime, tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Tom (02:13):
Great so I'll try and be brief as I possibly can, but I
guess my story starts off incontext with all of this, right
back when I was a kid in schooland growing up in, in
Buckinghamshire in England andmoving around schools and not
being so hot at school, notbeing so good at good things and
having to be reprimanded by theteachers from not being able to
remember things or read stuff orwrite my own name and things
(02:35):
from a point of view.
And then yeah, it got testedearly on for this psychologist
or dyslexia or whatever andmentioning it and giving you a
label which then kickstarted mylife into getting assistance, I
would say through school.
So its less about can't doschool, just more assistance to
achieve it.
And I found myself findingcreativity as my outlet like the
(02:57):
arts, was a really useful thing.
I was always that heavy learner,like all the books you read I
read'em still today.
But not your kind of fictionones you're reading all the
pop-out books as break apartones with all the information,
little snippets, magazines,anything I can ever read and
digest.
And hence why probably I gotthat degree where I pushed
myself and I never actuallywanted to go to university, but
(03:18):
it was a big thing and a push inthe UK back then and went off
and learned digital media Ithought that was an out, it was
a place where I found dyslexiareally helped.
You could suddenly use yourcreative brain, you could use
technology, you could usecreative thinking, you could
find really complex things andopen'em all apart and use your
(03:39):
brain in this crazy cool way andI thought, oh, maybe there's a
potential for a living in it.
But yeah, found myself doinghundreds of different jobs all
over the world, traveled theworld.
Also got some medical trainingfrom other jobs and moved here,
there and everywhere.
Actually in context of this aswell, taught some special I
(03:59):
gotta say it, special needspeople.
We talked about this earlier.
But I, yeah.
For my whole life it was alwaysspecial needs training or
special needs teaching andspecial needs or whatever.
And I thought the things Ilearned through school of how I
achieved it to give back.
And I had a short stint at a jobteaching people who were deaf,
blind, autism, other dyslexics.
(04:20):
In England, when you go touniversity, you go and get some
money to go to university if youtick the box of having, a
special need you got a computerand some software and stuff to
go and train some of that.
And then, yeah, long long storyshort, take away half of all my
life, but ended up in the sunnyWellington.
Met my wife and found myselfsomehow in health and safety,
but.
I think safety is one of thoseamazing industries where you can
(04:42):
be all over everything.
You can be out on every floor ofa business in every part of it,
in finance, through to the, onthe ground, on the tools,
through to, if you want to godown a specialist route, you
can.
You can be a generalist.
You can just open your brain andcreativity and dyslexia and
safety just goes sohand-in-hand, it's, unreal.
(05:03):
So I found myself somehow hereand loving it.
Greg (05:06):
Excellent.
So help me out here.
We know that in many businesses,in New Zealand, in fact, most
businesses in New Zealand, wecould say that probably about
10% of the employees in anybusiness in New Zealand is are
going to be dyslexic people.
And if I am that safety personand I'm delivering a training
session or I'm doing aninduction, or I'm leading a
(05:31):
toolbox talk or a committeemeeting, or even just having a
one-on-one discussion with aworker on whatever, what are
some of the things that I shouldthink about when I'm designing
my presentation or my trainingcourse or my talking points on
the basis that there could be adyslexic person who's part of
(05:52):
the audience.
Tom (05:53):
Really good question, look, I'm gonna be broad and I think
we've had conversations aboutthis in the past, but singling
it out and just saying dyslexiais a difficult one, I think my
advice on this would beapplicable to anybody with
potentially every kind ofdisability as such, or
neurodiversity or whatever you.
Keep it simple, keep it simpleand concise.
(06:15):
When I say that, take thecomplex and rip out apart the
bits that really needed.
So every one of us has got likea finite amount of information
load you can take in.
I think with dyslexics I'm notgonna speak for every dyslexic,
but for definitely for me, Ilike the visuals I learn from
touch and kinetic learning, Ilike technical information, but
(06:36):
not everyone does.
I think when someone keeps itdiverse, so you're not just
drained on a piece of reading.
Definitely I can't handle thedystopia, and I don't think many
of us could.
If I came in and said, here's mytraining, and it's all in just
like size 12, Times New Romanhere just read this and tell me
what you thought.
You'd be like, nah.
So yeah, nice big visuals.
(06:58):
Keep it simple and talk to thepoints that you're doing.
And then practical, if you'retalking about rope safety, get
the ropes out and start tyingsome knots or showing people how
to do'em.
If we're talking about confinedspace, photos, visuals, a short
video.
Talk about your expertise and Ialways say stories, literally
I'm a sucker for stories.
If you tell me a story about it.
(07:19):
I'll remember it.
I remember all the Todd Conklinkind of videos and stuff.
I remember all of those advisorysessions.
'cause he tells a whole longstory.
And he just come away from itremembering all these and I can
then retell that story.
And I think us as human beingspsychologically go on the
storytelling thing as a means ofactually doing it.
So those tools, keeping itsimple, making a story,
visualizing and you're coveringall your bases there.
(07:41):
You've got specialities in allpeople.
Greg (07:43):
And I guess we're starting to see a lot of that
conversation happening about howto make a toolbox talk more
engaging.
Gone are the days while maybethey're not gone, but they
should be where there's asupervisor standing up at the
front of the room with a JSEAyelling at a bunch of guys on
the building site, most of whomare hiding behind their dark
glasses and some of them arestanding 20 feet away and are
(08:06):
not particularly, engaged inthat discussion.
So the visualisation is I thinkbecoming more and more something
that, that people are learningto do.
Tom (08:13):
Talk to that point.
Thinking about this with what'scalled equitable outcomes or
whatever, we've got lot ofFilipino workers and then
laborers, all sorts of peoplefrom different backgrounds.
And I think the reading age ofconstruction industry is like 12
average.
I always think about if it's toohard for me, it is.
It's too hard for others aswell.
And I love that whole practical,grab the people out, the
audience, grab a ladder, put iton the ground, put the person
(08:35):
lying on the ground, ask'em tojoin in, make a little drama or
whatever, and talk to your pointof this is what ladder safety
is.
Or maybe grab some harnesses andclip'em onto a fence and say,
no, it doesn't go on the fence,this is not an anchor.
I'm visually showing them whereit is a good anchor point where
it's not a good anchor point.
I'll let read the book, read themanual on this before, just if
(08:56):
you have props and you are usingthose props and those are the
props that they really see inthe real world, brilliant.
Greg (09:02):
That's cool.
So I'm in the moment I'mdelivering my presentation or my
induction in whatever form thispresentation might be.
How might I tell that somebodyin the audience might be
struggling to interpret what I'msaying or read the content that
I've provided to them, whetherit be on a screen or on a bit of
(09:23):
paper.
Or even if there's some sort oftest, we're a little bit
fascinated, aren't we with the20 questions after the training
session.
And you've gotta write theanswers down in some way because
we think that's gonna prove thatI've read and understood the
content.
How am I gonna identify that ifI'm standing at the front of the
room and one of my teammates orclassmates or workers is having
(09:44):
a hard time.
Tom (09:46):
It's a really broad one I think.
I think there's two parts tothis I wanna answer.
One is not be afraid to ask theroom whether anyone is
struggling.
Whether anyone is or straight upjust asking, is anyone got any?
And I think a lot I saying thatsome people will just not tell
you straight up.
Don't tell you, someone likemyself would be like, hands up,
dyslexia.
These are all you need, but totell, I think you can start
(10:07):
seeing the body language ofpeople drifting, switching off
playing.
Technology these days playingwith your phone.
You've got day dreaming.
You start looking off, you'vegot the left-hand side.
If you see people reminiscingsomething or learning and
remembering.
But I always think if you, everynow and then interject with a
question about has anyone everhad any similar experiences,
what are your thoughts?
Or picking on a person thatlooks like they're drifting and
(10:29):
not in a bad way, just sayingokay, so we've just talked about
this or whatever it is, and notpunishing necessarily for
switching off because actuallybrains drift.
We are listening and we'rehearing, but we're also
reminiscing of something that isapparently like relevant to what
you're talking about.
And I did it you were literallytalking right then I do it right
then.
It is not because I'm beingrude, it's because my brain goes
off on a little tangent andstarts thinking about things and
(10:51):
reminiscing the times to answeryour question.
The written test stuff whereyou're like, what was on line
four of seven and what did Jim'sname and what color t-shirt was
he wearing?
I'll be awful at that.
Recollection of words on paperaren't my forte.
So if you know someone can't dothat necessarily so well, is
(11:12):
there another test forcompetency?
I'm always into the physical.
Show me, play around with it.
Can you actually do that knotcan you actually do that clip?
Show me that you can screw that.
Run me through visually, run methrough practically what it is.
If the forklift needs to have acheck in certain way is the
check sheet the best way?
Is it just showing me that thisis taking it in?
I think point, looking at peoplein the audience.
(11:33):
They might not just have a,you'd say special need, but they
might not have dyslexia.
They might not have it.
I don't know.
They could just be switching offbecause your conversation's not
that enlightening.
I dunno it could be that they'restruggling.
And if they are struggling, Ithink that again comes back to
that open conversation ofrecognizing that you could have
(11:53):
a number of differentdisabilities in the room or
neuro diversities in the room.
And I don't think you could gothrough naming every one of'em.
Do you have this?
Do you have this?
Do you have this?
Do you have this?
And if they're not forthcomingwith that, then you are just
gonna have to keep it simpleplay to all the different
kinetic learning.
Greg (12:08):
I think maybe we'll make a comment about this later but the
whole neurodiversity thing is aninvisible issue, isn't it?
You can't see it like you canmaybe some other forms of
diversity.
So you don't know, as you sayunless somebody's willing to
tell.
Now that's really reallyvaluable stuff.
I guess thinking about the nextpiece, you know reflective
(12:29):
practice is a really importantpart of our professional
development, we've done someplanning we've delivered our
training session or whatever itmight be.
The next piece is that piece ofreflection and how did it go and
what are some of the questionsthat I might ask myself if I
have been in that room andexperienced that sudden
(12:50):
awareness that there's somebodyin the room that's not feeling
included?
What are some of the questionsthat I might ask myself in order
that next time I'm betterprepared?
Tom (13:02):
I think I've been in these situations.
I've gone and this is me goingoff on an information grab.
I go off and try and learn.
I kind try and go, what is itthat I am dealing with here?
I'm dealing with the whole ofour nation of all the different
possible variations ofdisabilities or neurodiversities
(13:23):
and so on.
So I would go off and go saysomeone, you specifically talk
in the context of dyslexia, andsomeone certainly found out that
was during the class and youdon't feel like they were
included or you didn't prepareyour material ahead of time.
There's a wealth of informationout there online.
I think we talked about thedesign by Dyslexia stuff.
(13:44):
I would go out there and learn abit about it.
This great websites, this greatunderstandings of what their
strengths are.
And not taking it as a what arethe negatives of this ability
that I have to try and make mymaterial fit.
Its actually what are thepositives of that ability, what
are their abilities andstrengths and how do I play to
them?
Rather than thinking, how do Iplay my material down?
It's, how do I make it morecreatively engaging?
(14:08):
How do I make it more likeproblem-solving?
I think some disabilities,dyslexics love problems.
They love problem solving.
So give them problems to solve.
Give them some task work to do.
I went to a really interestingtraining session the other day
held by Land Search and Rescue.
There's two guys that ran thisthing, and I remember this being
(14:28):
one of the best overall.
They encompassed, I think, everytype of disability and.
We were straight outta the room,running around finding flowers
and a stone and a rock orwhatever, and you come back in
and then the next minute we'resitting down and if, but every
single part of the entire daywas a part of training.
It was how they communicated toyou, how they pointed, how they
got people to stand up, how theydid a, like a book work lesson,
(14:52):
and so on.
I reflected on that wholetraining session.
It wasn't mine that I didn'tgive, but I reflected on, I
said.
Variation is key, you can'tplease everybody.
Yes.
So try and do something that anyeveryone can engage in.
And I can't remember all thedifferent types.
There's a kinetic learning
Greg (15:09):
VARC isn't it?
Visual, audio, reading andkinesthetic.
Tom (15:15):
So when I used to deliver training and SOPs and stuff in
manufacturing.
I'd ask people what they'rethinking and they often, they
didn't even know.
So then I'm like, okay, here'sthe SOP that was worthy.
Here's a little competencytesting that made you understand
whether you read the thing ornot.
And then you go out and youstart playing with a buttons on
the machine.
Then you visually tell'em, no,don't touch this thing it hurts
(15:38):
you.
You can touch this one, andthere, this is what we're gotta
do.
And then you run'em through andthen you give'em some time to go
and fail.
Because I think it's importantto fail.
And then say.
Failure's not bad.
Cool, did you learn from thatmistake?
And break it right down tosimplistic and imagine you're
trying to teach a child.
If you haven't got kids, youhaven't got'em.
But yeah, think about the whole,I always say the dishwasher
(15:59):
test.
If you're trying to explain tosomeone how to use a dishwasher,
right back to the beginning ofthis is what I expect, this is
my outcome I wanna see.
And then you put it in there andyou show your kids how to do it,
and then they fail and they bekids and that.
I think we're adults.
We'll just do same as kids.
Yeah.
To come back to your question isdon't be harsh on yourself
reflecting.
(16:20):
Just try and make it verydifferent.
Greg (16:22):
Variation.
Cool.
I just wanna reflect back on,there you go.
I wanna reflect back on what yousaid right at the beginning.
You talked a little bit about.
I guess your experiences offinding out that you were a
dyslexic person and that it was,sounds like that was quite early
on in your schooling time and Ithink back to, the New Zealand
(16:42):
experience and I went to apresentation by a chap who works
in the education system here inNew Zealand.
He's not dyslexic himself, buthis brother and his father were,
and one of the things that justfloored me with his presentation
was that the Ministry ofEducation in New Zealand didn't
recognise dyslexia as a thinguntil 2007.
(17:05):
Now, that was only.
15 years ago or something andyou know, and you've used the
term, and I know you don't likeusing it, but the special needs
term, which you've you've usedit because that's what you were
brought up as thinking ofyourself as a special, where you
were in a special needs classand you had to do a special
needs this, that and the other.
(17:25):
And that's, I guess that's notwhat we're about these days.
And neurodiversity is this newsort of term that, we try and
use.
But yeah, I wonder if in NewZealand we're like many things a
little bit behind the eight ballwith some of the development of
understanding this stuff.
We talk about health and safetyis 20 years behind the uk and
(17:47):
and then you find out that thisdyslexia thing has only been
recognised by the government,effectively as something that
needs to be.
Understood only, 15 or 16 yearsago, as I say, it floored me
when I heard that and I guess itjust makes you wonder how kids
that grew up in New Zealandprior to that have developed in
(18:08):
their careers.
And I know in the UK, I believedyslexia is specifically
mentioned in theanti-discrimination legislation,
apparently, this is what thisguy mentioned.
He had been in the uk and andhad researched and done a lot of
work in that space.
And yes, okay, New Zealand,we've got our own
anti-discrimination laws, but.
(18:30):
Generally, they're notparticularly specific in terms
of what types of discrimination.
It's left up to the imagination,in most cases.
So yeah, it just, it's maybe itseems that yet again, we're a
little bit little bit backwardssometimes in some of these
things.
So we are almost at time butwhat I'd like you to do, if you
can is maybe give us top threeor four tips that you might have
(18:52):
for individuals, health andsafety people teams within a
workplace to make sure that thethings that they're doing is
more inclusive of people that,that might be in that
neurodiversity sort of space.
Have you got any top tips?
And you've mentioned a few ofthem already, but maybe let's
just reflect on those.
Tom (19:12):
So many, keep it simple that's my go-to thing.
And I don't mean it in terms ofjust dyslexia, but.
Everything we do everything wedo within safety, safety's
complex right, doesn't mean wecan't be clear about it.
And when I say simple, I don'tnecessarily mean making it bare
bones and not it's clarity.
And I mean that in every singlepart we do when we're developing
(19:36):
complex documents through toSSSPs, JSAs, all these things,
SWMS, whatever you wanna call'em, through to communication.
If we're communicating with eachother, we're trying to include
everybody.
We've gotta, I always say bringour information to the lowest
denominator.
So if I've got a, I'm notpicking on Filipino workers its
(19:59):
just because I have been workingwith a lot of fantastic people.
Incredibly intelligent, butwe're trying to include them in
our information flow.
We've also gotta includedyslexic and other
neurodiversities.
We've also gotta include peoplewith limited, like project
managers with a lot going on orblooming CEOs with so many
things and safety is literallyjust a nugget of what they do in
(20:21):
their life and you've gotta getsome key information across.
So keeping it clear, keeping itsimple.
And I think safety will win alot more of our battles we're
trying to achieve.
And then, for those of safetyprofessionals out there or those
trying to include them.
Dyslexia is a superpower like itreally is, I'm trying to
implore, I always try and beopen with people so that it's
used more in common language,that we've, recognizing that I'm
(20:44):
proud of everything I do,dyslexia is literally assisted
me to be where I'm today.
I would never be anywhere near.
Had I not recognized it or beenrecognized earlier on, but it's
a superpower.
And I wrote some of the thingsdown I mentioned to you earlier
on, but like visualizing, theseare things that statistically on
these websites that like made bydyslexia, they're like
(21:04):
eighty-four percent ofdyslexics, incredible
visualizations skills,connecting, exploring,
imagining, communicating,reasoning, skills, lateral
thinking, complex problemsolving and interpersonal skills
and like just to name a few.
Those are things that employeesare looking for and not to be
necessarily thinking of it as adisability.
(21:27):
I know we use the term sometimesthroughout this book, and it is
a huge ability as long as weknow to capture it.
And then I think my final kindof third thing, being more
practical and not creatingsafety for safety people.
So we're trying to make safetyfor inclusivity of it.
It's a communication tool, weare communicators and we're
influencers at heart.
(21:48):
We, we are trying to.
Push the good word of gettinghome at the end of the day.
To do that, we often need to dopractical skills, we need to get
people to buy into our ideas.
We need to influencestakeholders above and below and
to communicate with those peopleor those masses of people,
whatever we need influencingskills and we need communication
(22:10):
tools.
And I think if we think likeyou're doing here now.
Getting people thinking abouthow we communicate with people
with neurodiversity is a greatway to just realize how we can
communicate with our entirenation to our entire workforce.
Whether they've gotneurodiversities or not, or
whether they're just at anystage in their career or life or
(22:31):
whatever..
Greg (22:31):
Look that's awesome, and I think we've heard lots in a
whole range of differentconversations around how if you
do things.
To be inclusive of people with aneurodiverse situation actually,
it suits the majority, if notall of the rest of the
population because it's allabout simplicity, it's all about
(22:54):
clarity and those sorts ofthings.
So that's awesome.
I think you've mentioned it acouple of times and we'll put it
into the show notes.
A link to the Richard Branson'sMade by Dyslexia.
So we'll put a link to that.
I think they've got a websiteand they've got a whole bunch of
resources that, can be helpful.
I think I've done one of thetraining courses, which I shared
on LinkedIn a few months ago.
(23:14):
I just, I think it was actuallyan hour long, so it was, it was
quite comprehensive.
To just to go through that andunderstand some of the concepts
behind that.
But look, I think that's beenreally super helpful.
And we, I just, repeat againthat, that neurodiversity is a
bit of an invisible form ofdiversity.
It's not.
(23:34):
Visually apparent.
And if you are delivering somesort of training session or just
engaging with another person it,it just may be that your message
isn't getting through becauseyou haven't taken that into
consideration as to how youmight need to change your
behavior or your delivery orwhatever it might be.
So really valuable stuff and itis about inclusion and it's been
(23:57):
awesome to chat and thanks verymuch for putting your time aside
today.
And anything else you wanna justfinally finish off with any
pearls of wisdom or are we donefor the day?
Tom (24:07):
I don't think there's anymore.
I just.
If you're dyslexic and you thinkyou might like safety, I think
it's a fantastic career choicefor them.
I think with somebody with it isthat kind of superpower I think
is so much enjoyment and abilityto play with the great brain
that people have.
Greg (24:24):
Awesome cheers Tom.
Tom (24:25):
No worries.
Thank you much.
Greg (24:28):
What a great insightful discussion with someone who has
experience on both sides of thesubject.
Tom shared some real insightsinto how we can be more
inclusive of dyslexic thinkersin the work that we do.
Tom talked about starting out inhis creative career in digital
media, having known a little bitabout as different approach to
(24:50):
thinking.
There was a bit of a moment forme during our chat that has
shown the impact of howhistorically people that are
different have experienced theworld.
Tom made reference to beingspecial needs and the impact
that the use of that term mayhave had on a young person
growing up.
(25:12):
Tom found a creative outlet forhis creative mind in the work in
health and safety and he'spassionate about trying to
evolve how we implement thevarious approaches to ensure
inclusivity for all workers.
Tom shared advice on ensuringthat you're training
presentation material is keptsimple and concise, but all of
(25:32):
this is also delivered in arange of ways to suit what is
most likely a really diverseaudience regardless of where you
are or what business you're in.
Think about how you assessunderstanding.
I think many would agree, a bitof paper that says, please sign
here to confirm yourunderstanding.
(25:54):
Is entirely ineffective.
Tom's words we're pretty clear,as a dyslexic person recalling
words on a page isn't his forte.
I think my takeaway from thisdiscussion was Tom's mindset
that his dyslexia has got himwhere he is today, and that's
because he recognized early onthat it was his superpower.
(26:19):
I think you will learn so muchfrom this discussion and a lot
more, if you listened to it.
So I'm not going to dissect itany further than this.
Grab a coffee and immerseyourself into Tom's world.
We've come to the end of thisepisode.
Thanks so much for listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
(26:41):
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed.
(27:01):
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast I'd reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week, we talked to a AfelePaea who has come through
(27:24):
various roles with CorrectionsWorkSafe and the Puataunofo
team, he's been a consultant andis currently the SHEQ manager
with Landscape Solutions.
Until then, thanks again fortuning into the Culturally
Intelligent Safety Professional.
Ka Kitei.
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