April 20, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode we hear some really honest stories from someone who has guided people through difficult times in their lives whether that be through needing welfare assistance or have ended up in the prison system and now as someone who is passionate about the Pacifika community helping them improve their workplace safety outcomes.
Afele Paea jumped straight into the deep end at 18 years old when he started working for Work and Income and followed that by doing a stretch at Corrections, on the right side of the bars.
Afele is a story-teller and he paints some wonderful pictures of his life and work, his messages to us all include, just be a good human and understand what stimulates those who you work with, that might mean doing some homework. If you are working with Pacifika peoples, make it visual, make it interactive, add some humour and, if you are like Afele and can bake a cake, take that along as well.
So, sit back and enjoy this episode that while it might create some sobering thoughts, is laced with a bit of Pacifika humour from South Auckland.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/afele-paea-33b2b614b/
https://www.worksafe.govt.nz/managing-health-and-safety/businesses/puataunofo/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hey listeners welcome to another episode of the Cultural
Intelligent Safety Professional,a podcast aimed at providing a
platform where by safetyprofessionals can develop a
pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will in turn help themfunction more effectively when
working in a multiculturalsituation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experienceacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:43):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:03):
might be it is still full ofdiversity people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
Today I'm talking to Afele Paeawho has come through various
roles from Corrections, WorkSafein the Puataunofo team, he's
(01:25):
been a consultant and iscurrently the SHEQ Manager with
Landscape Solutions.
Fakaalofa Lahi Atu Afele, howare you doing?
Afele (01:35):
Fakaalofa Lahi Atu Greg.
I'm doing good thank you, thanksfor having me.
Greg (01:42):
That's quite a resume that you've got in terms of the range
of roles that you've undertakenover the last few years.
How do you go from being aprobation officer to a safety
manager?
Tell us a little bit about yourstory and how you got to where
you are now.
Afele (01:57):
Cheers Greg.
Yep my first job was actually Iguess under the table.
I was doing some painting forsome guys.
That was my first job and he hadme up on a scissor lift painting
these beams in Onehunga inAuckland.
And I knew nothing about safetyat that time, all I knew I was
getting a big feed out of it.
And we were using externalscissor lift or internal scissor
(02:18):
lift on the outside and thisthing was waving back and forth.
So that was my first experience,with workplace safety and stuff
or lack of safety, and I trustedthe guy too we used to go to
church together.
Shout out to the bro, Denny.
I'll forward it to him, but gooddude.
But yeah, that was my firstofficial role was working at
Work and Income and I was a casemanager.
(02:39):
So I was granting unemploymentbenefit and looking after
unemployment beneficiaries,caseload was huge, they were
ridiculous.
At that time, it was like 250people that are on the
unemployment benefit thatseemingly need to be readily
available for work.
For a 18-year-old it's a bigrole to take on.
But who I saw coming through thedoor was māori and pasifika, and
(03:03):
I could see and, not to go toodeep into it, but with my old
man and my upbringing I wasquite familiar with that
scenario of going into socialwelfare or work and income and
asking for food grants andstuff, so a lot of that wasn't
uncommon to me, except I was onthe other side of the table.
Best to be on the other side ofthe table and try and help.
So that was my first role and itgave me a real appreciation I
(03:26):
guess for seeing my communityfrom that lens and seeing where
I can help.
So that's what I learned there.
That second role was withDepartment of Corrections with
Community Probation Services asa probation officer.
You would think that the rolewouldn't be transferable but it
definitely does havetransferable skills, you're
managing risk, you're managingthe risk of, They have different
(03:48):
names now, but we called themoffenders.
We, the risk of the offender reoffending, and we had to use
risk assessment tools, which Istill use now, actually.
So part of the risk assessmenttools was assessing three
components their stable risk,their acute risk, and their
protective risk.
Those three factors I still holdon to today.
(04:09):
And I've in my own way made itinto my version of risk
assessment to make it work forme in terms of workplace health
and safety.
That role was really tough.
It got to the point where mymanager saw that I was quite
good at deescalating the gangmembers when they were coming or
irate and hostile.
Purely because they look likeme, and because I grew up around
(04:31):
a lot of them, and I wasn'tintimidated off the bat.
The physicality, yeah, they'llprobably knock me out, but in
terms of dealing with them andjust being sincere, I'm like,
man, I grew up with uncles likeyou guys.
You don't scare me, of allthings you're making this worse
for yourself, mate.
I just had a more empathetic,compassionate approach Still
being stern and saying, at theend of the day, you're the one
(04:52):
on sentence, not me.
And managing those risk factors,asking about, how is your, how
are your pro socialrelationships, and looking at
assessing risk on that scale,and breaking it down.
Corrections gave me some reallygood tools to assess risk which
I then crossed over to WorkSafe,I secured a role as a health and
safety inspector first whichI've done for eight years that
(05:13):
role definitely, I always jokeabout it when people ask, oh
man, how do you get, like howyou asked, how do you go from
being a probation officer tohealth and safety and to that
space, and I'm just like, Idon't know.
At Corrections, you're assessingthe risk of the individual, at
WorkSafe, you're assessing therisk of a scaffold.
And to be honest, a scaffold's alot more easier to work with
(05:36):
than the guy resisting you everytime he has to report in and do
his programs and stuff.
In that aspect, yeah, it was theskills were definitely
transferable and a lot of itcomes down to, what I've
noticed, it comes down tocommunication, how you talk to
people.
Yes, you might have the answers,but it's not about just spoon
feeding an answer.
There were offenders there thatI could say, man, you just need
(05:57):
to do this, and that, but that'snot gonna, they need to go on a
journey.
They need to go on a journey tounderstand why, what does
trigger them, why they do needto manage themselves, because
spoon feeding them the answer,if you're not there, it just
creates a dependence.
And it's exactly the same insafety, that I had observed, is
that I would go to constructionsites, and so I patrolled, I
(06:20):
guess I won't get into detailabout it, but I patrolled a
certain area of Auckland, andjust every probation health and
safety inspector does, and therewere just repetitive things,
working at height, the siteconditions, poor electrical
safety, and poor considerationfor the general public.
And those were the key thingsthat kept popping up.
(06:42):
On top of the asbestos relatedstuff and the silica dust and
whatnot, which were the focusesat the time with WorkSafe, I
would see things there that, Iwould say, mate, all you need to
do to be compliant is A, B, C,and D.
If you don't, then I'm gonnahave to issue a notice, either
improvement or prohibition.
(07:03):
But the thing is that, usingpunitive measures doesn't change
people's behaviours.
And, that's the thing, is yearone of me getting my warrant and
doing inspections, to year five,I think it was, five years into
the inspector role, I was seeingthe same company dealing with
the same issues from year one.
And I'm like, What the heck, andthe thing is that there wasn't
(07:25):
an appetite to change because,yeah, they just wanted to
continue doing what they weredoing, how they were doing it,
despite you saying, hey, this ishow you be compliant.
It really does come down totrying to influence and trying
to be Again, like I said, youcan lead the horse to water, but
you can't force it to drink.
And there's so much times where,even with some of these
(07:48):
offenders that I was dealingwith, I was like, man, your
kids, you've got to do the rightthing for the next one.
But those are my values, and Ican't push my values onto them.
For a better life for yourself,you need to make these better
choices again, but they won'tappreciate that until they go on
that journey for themselves.
It's a tricky one.
It's a tricky one in terms ofbeing able to identify those
dynamics but my heart is in it.
(08:10):
That's what I've always held onto.
My heart has always been for thepeople.
Whether I was granting benefitsthrough grants or advances or
full power in rent arrears totrying to, help some of these
guys that were on sentence atcorrections that were genuine,
that didn't want to change.
I'll say mate, I'll meet youhalfway.
I'll absolutely meet youhalfway.
(08:30):
If you're willing to make theright steps, I'll be there and
dealing with WorkSafe.
Yeah, absolutely.
Those duty holders that neededto, it was quite cool in that
aspect, because as a regulator,you had the, they listen when
you talk, when you offer advicethey do take that advice.
They say, okay, you can offerthem best practice guidelines
and things like that to helpthem align.
(08:51):
But whilst I was doing thehealth and safety inspector
stuff and that's where I startedto swing more towards a Pacific
responsiveness because theStatistics for Pacific people in
New Zealand.
Very much everything that I'veseen, unemployment, I saw
Pacific people walking throughthe door.
Incarceration, I saw Maori andPacific coming through the door.
And now even in the workplace,we're the ones being seriously
(09:13):
injured in the workplace.
I'm seeing the, I'll cross theboard and I thought, oh I liked
health and safety more than Idid the corrections side of
things.
I got a bit heavy at correctionsdealing with some high risk
issues, high risk people thathave done some high risk stuff
from sexual offending and youhave to write pre sentence
reports for the district courtjudges, go into detail and
(09:34):
identify, really analyse thesummary of facts and getting
their statements and seeingwhere their mindset was, that
became a bit heavy a lot heavy,actually, to the point where I
was like, oh, man, dealing withthe scaffold is a lot easier
than dealing with the recidivistoffender, because all I need to
do is tell the scaffold to makeAB they already know.
But then they get angry atobviously the builders, it's
(09:56):
easier to deal with that becauseit's like a formula there.
It's like a one plus one equalstwo.
You can get it back in alignmentwith overnight sort of thing you
can get the scaffolder back on.
But with someone that hasissues, you can change the
behavioral change that doesstuff doesn't have to change
overnight.
So I found that working atWorkSafe gave me a lot more.
And like I said, so many moretowards the pacific side of
things, being a Pacific personmyself, my father being Niuean
(10:18):
and me growing up in my cultureand my mum being Māori.
Growing up in my cultures andunderstanding what protocols and
processes are in place.
And like I said, actually beingable to empathize with a lot of
the workforce, they were in thesame position as my upbringing.
I see a lot of similarities.
We didn't grow up with much soit allowed me to actually
connect them quite easily andempathize with them and see, oh,
(10:41):
I know it's not an easy fix, butI'm in the fight with them.
Yeah that's a big spurt of mycareer profile.
Greg (10:47):
That's cool and I guess just to carry on with that
theme, obviously you've talked alittle bit about culture, even
just the cultural differencebetween some of our listeners
maybe and some of the peoplethat you've had to deal with in
terms of probation services orother jobs you've had and your
LinkedIn profile tells a littlebit of a story about your
(11:07):
thought processes and yourconnection to culture.
And I want to quote somethingand it's something that you've
put on LinkedIn, and we've beentalking about it a little bit
over the last few weeks.
You wrote a little bit of ametaphor back in, 2021 and I
just want to quote it back toyou and it goes like this.
"All of this is racing throughmy mind.
(11:27):
And I'm quickly internalizingeverything, from my tone,
volume, the speed at which thewords exit my mouth, even to how
I am sitting.
In these split seconds, Ihaven't polished my metaphor,
but I figure there's an honestyand a vulnerability in at least
being in the ballpark of what Iwant to say, and letting the
(11:49):
room indirectly help me getthere." And based on that
description, I can tell that youwould score quite highly in what
we call CQ Action.
You understand the environmentthat you're in, and what it
might be about the words youwant to say, your non verbal
behaviours.
And your ability to tweak thoseto try and create influence to
(12:14):
adjust your presence, your wordsand your body language and your
ability to adapt seems quitewell developed.
Cast your mind back to thatmoment.
August 2021.
How did it feel to be aroundthat board table, and what was
the response from others in theroom when you said your bit?
Afele (12:35):
Yeah, cheers mate.
When I was writing that and Imentioned right at the beginning
I've never done that before, andI just wanted to, I felt I had
something to say.
On the day, yes, but thenafterwards I thought there was
something bigger that I could Icould fully capture, and that's
why I chucked it on the page.
I started typing it up, and atthe time, it was my, those years
(12:59):
going from an inspector into aprincipal advisory role, um,
you're immediately coming offthe front line and going into a
strategic role and there were, Ihave a lot of self awareness of
that stuff.
So for me, I've always wanted tojust put my best foot forward
and I wanted to add value and Iwas looking for an opportunity.
(13:23):
Like I said, I was confident.
of why I was in the room becauseI know I could connect in with a
lot of the workforce thatrepresent those statistics.
And when I was talking aboutthose details that you were
going on about too, the way I'msitting and how I say it, it's
because I want to be perceivedproperly.
I want to be perceived in theright way.
(13:44):
And I guess from some otherexperiences.
I've had trouble with perceptionas to people look at me and they
think I'm just a grunt, I'm thisbig dude, but the thing is,
mate, a quick, a nice littlequick story on that.
I bake mate, I bake the mostbeautiful banana and chocolate
cakes you'll ever taste.
Yeah, I'm coming around.
(14:05):
Where is it?
When I was taking it, when I wastaking it to work, when I was at
corrections, they were like, oh,did your wife bake this?
And I was like, no I baked it,mate.
And they're like, oh, no a biggrunt.
Like you can't bake.
And I'm like I just did, mate.
You're eating you're eating whatI've made.
And and I'm not saying it's theperception that comes, but I
guess it was a lot of, for me,there was a self-perception of
(14:25):
do I deserve to be in the room?
So I do want to be perceivedproperly.
And then I just have to hold onto those first principles of
trying to do the best for whatI'm trying to achieve.
I'm there to try and help mypeople be safe.
And I saw an opportunity here.
So I was like, Oh take a deepbreath, breathe out.
And then that was that wholeprocess of me.
(14:46):
I did go into finer details.
I was being a bit dramatic to behonest, but in terms of trying
to make it a bit more dramaticand more cinematic in that way,
to the way I'm sitting in that'sjust me growing up on, 80s
movies, to be honest.
And that's the point I storytold it, but yeah that's what
was going through my mind wasjust trying to provide value,
but at the same time be genuineand I am self conscious of all
(15:09):
those things, my tone, speed atwhich I talk because like I
said, some, there, there areself perceptions and perceptions
that I don't want to be.
What's that word?
Not perceived ideally the way Idon't want to be perceived.
So I want to show people that Iwant to help, and I, and
whatever it takes sort of thing.
So I'm trying to be a strategicand being, like I said, in those
(15:31):
earlier years, trying to be asstrategic as possible, I would
absolutely watch what I wouldsay.
And at the beginning of thatarticle, I'd mentioned that.
I think about things.
I've learned that about myself.
I don't just go straight off thebat.
I process it because I know myinternal process is that if I
spit out things that just, myraw response to, a car crash
(15:51):
happens in front of me orsomeone cuts me off and I, just
raw response it's ugly.
And I know that.
I need to compose And by thetime I sleep, like even
overnight, usually I'll sleep ondecisions and I've learned that
about myself, that I'll sleep onit and then I'll have a totally
different perspective bytomorrow.
At first I'll be quiteaggressive and quite raw and
(16:14):
then I'm just thinking this isnot working for me.
For the first couple of times Itried it, speaking off the hip
and some people they can speakoff the hip and it's, it has
deep insight and I'm like, man,I wish I could do that, but I
don't.
And but that's all right.
I have that self awareness thatI'll follow my steps in my
process.
So when I start thinking aboutthings, people think I'm quiet
or I'm, and I'm just like, nah,I'm just keeping myself safe.
Greg (16:35):
Absolutely.
And I think again, I said,before I talked about CQ action
with all of those, nonverbal andspeech behaviors and all of
those sorts of things, butactually a couple of things
you've said there aroundunderstanding why you're in the
room and thinking about whyyou're in the room and
strategizing.
That's another key component ofthis cultural intelligence
(16:56):
concept about planning, whenyou're going to be in a
multicultural situation.
And of course, when I use thosewords multicultural, I'm not
just talking about ethnicity,you've talked about coming from
the front line to the boardroom,that's a different culture in
itself.
And so you had an idea of howyou wanted to be portrayed or
how you wanted to portrayyourself in that environment.
(17:17):
It's I wonder if it's notnecessarily about perception,
it's more about what you think,or how you think you want to be,
or want to portray yourself.
As well as maybe there was alittle bit about how you think
you should be but actually Ithink it's probably more about
what you think is, The right wayto behave for you in that
environment.
(17:37):
And it also sounds like you'vedone a hell of a lot of
reflection on what you think,what you believe trying to
understand your reactions andyour responses to certain
things.
That, that's really cool.
I love that story, that widerstory that you told.
You've talked about being a goodcook, a good baker and for those
that are listening, I'dcertainly encourage you to go
(17:58):
and check out Afele's LinkedInprofile and look for the article
called Making Bread Making Meand just how you weave that
story about the art of makingbread into a story about health
and safety and I think youdecided, you talked about
deciding to use that metaphorwhile you were sitting around
that table.
(18:19):
Have you always been astoryteller?
Afele (18:22):
Yeah, put short, yeah, I talk a lot of kaka there, Greg
yeah, I've always tried toportray myself or portray my
views.
With stories, absolutely.
Me and a quick little story, isme and my brothers, growing up,
we, like I said, we watch a lotof movies.
And we got this thing wheneverwe get together, all we're doing
is just quoting movie lines linefor line.
(18:43):
And that's how we would have afull conversation of just going
through a scene.
In a movie, and it could beRocky, it could be The Matrix,
it could be La Bamba, but I'mgoing through me and my brothers
that's how, we didn't have toys,mate, so we had to make up our
own entertainment, and we wouldwatch yeah, watch these movies
and yeah, even to today, when weget together for our kids
(19:06):
birthdays, we're all older now,and we've got kids, and, hook up
with our siblings and stuffwe're still doing the same,
mate, we're still Portrayingourselves, not portraying but
we're still talking inmetaphors, we're still talking
through either songs, like we'lleven do this thing where we'll
just Like randomly just test oneanother and say some and just
say a line out of a movie andjust say what movie is that and
(19:29):
it would be this huge thing thatwould test one and it was a huge
thing it's still a huge thingfor us now that if we were to
just pick up so to answer yourquestion that yeah we I've
always I guess portrayed myselfin that way or you know I've
portrayed my views and I'veextended it to myself I guess
professionally where I wouldshare my views something as
simple as the cartoons I used towatch growing up and would be in
(19:52):
a team meeting and then I'll be,I'll quote, innocently, I'll
quote, oh yeah, so they'll say,oh yeah, Afele you can team up
with with Sula, James and Vase,and I'll be like, hey Voltron,
because I grew up watchingVoltron and I'll just say stuff
like that to, to perceive whatI'm, what's in my head.
And I'll be like, hey Voltron,and then what are you talking
about?
And I was like, oh, sorry.
So it's a Paea thing to behonest.
(20:14):
It's a Paea family thing, butyeah, telling stories and it's
become, even more so, prominentthrough my professional
development and working at workand income, working at probation
and working at WorkSafe whereI've been able to gather a lot
of professional stories now andbe able to portray those views
(20:35):
through proper lived experience,as opposed to trying to tell
someone something, I'll chuck itinto a story or a movie line or
something like that.
Just something a bit morepalatable for their ears, or
more relatable.
Greg (20:48):
So the other piece of that story, Making Bread Making Me,
that I liked and the story, itwas like full of moments that
I'm going, wow, this is just,this is just great writing.
And I've, I've said thatpublicly that I think you should
do a lot more of it.
But you said,"find whatstimulates your workers and give
them assurance that it's a warmenvironment to do" and I guess
(21:08):
that's almost on thatpsychological safety side of
things, but.
I wanted to focus on the intentof that sentence and consider it
from a health and safetyprofessional's perspective and
rather than considering it inthe context of ethnicity I want
to consider it in the context ofcultural difference, but the
cultural difference that mightexist between your average
(21:31):
health and safety professionaland a senior manager.
So not, as I say, not an ethnicdiscussion, But more an
organizational hierarchydiscussion.
As I've said before, there is,there's obviously a, there's a
cultural difference betweenthose two positions within a
hierarchy.
So I think that statement thatyou made about finding what
(21:52):
stimulates your workers, swapout the word workers for find
what stimulates the manager orthe CFO or the sales manager or
whoever it might be, the leaderof the organization and really
just try and find out from themwhat spins their wheels.
And then have the discussionabout why you're suggesting this
health and safety initiative andtry and link it in with a story.
(22:16):
So I think that how you canapply that statement that you've
made across a number ofdifferent sort of scenarios.
Afele (22:23):
Yeah, definitely Greg.
I think you've plucked it outthere's a deeper meaning to that
statement of stimulate yourworkers.
What I'm saying, like whatyou're saying, it doesn't matter
if you're Samoan, Niuean,Tongan, Cook Island, whatever,
ethnic culture, find whatstimulates the person.
Because that's how you canextract the best out of them and
it takes energy and effort to dothat and it's energy and effort
(22:46):
that I'm not seeing, to behonest, and maybe that's just
within my own world, but I'm notseeing the effort to help
people, invest their energy intoit, into understanding what,
what stimulates them, and for,what I can say is for a lot of
Māori and Pasifika, that it verymuch is family mate.
What stimulates a lot ofPacifica is family.
(23:06):
I remember going to a companythat shucks oysters, and I've
done an inspection there.
And they kept saying, oh, a lotof the staff, they had a lot of
Islanders that were shucking anda lot of them were saying that a
lot of the staff members aregetting gout because they're
eating the oysters.
And it was a big deal becausethey would have a lot of their
(23:26):
production line off because theylove seafood, I love seafood.
They love seafood and it's shuckone, eat one, nah, I'm not going
to do that.
But they, had thing that a lotof our staff and it was becoming
an issue for the company that alot of staff were taking time
off because of gout.
And then I, they said, we don'tknow what to do because we can't
not have them not shuck theseoysters.
(23:48):
So what can we do?
And they asked me for a solutionand I was like you got a bunch
of Samoans and Tongans and Isaid you need to really.
This is what comes, this is theway I see it, this is what comes
with that role.
You're riding, you're like a kidin a candy store, so to speak,
and they want to eat what's infront of them, so that's where
you're getting a lot of theissues with, and that's what the
(24:10):
job is.
So what I said was, mate, you'vegot to change the whole, you've
got to change the whole system.
And they asked me how, and Isaid the best way to get the
best out of the island men,because a lot of them are men
get the best out of these islandmen is talk to the island wife,
and they will definitely, andtake the family on a journey.
How about you take the wholefamily and say, for your guys
health benefits how about you doa whole health push, a full on
(24:34):
health push program, and involvethe family, because the workers
are only accountable from theirjob description, from 8 to 5, or
whatever their time, but outsideof those hours, it's the wife.
The wife is, is the one that'sgonna crack the whip and hold
them accountable, so if you takethe family on a journey, you Try
(24:55):
that approach.
And I said, because, she willdefinitely crack the whip if
they can see that it's havingnegative health benefits.
And if you were to do somethinglike health testing, blood
pressure and things like thatand blood tests and see if
there's any underlying issuesand obviously approach it
sensitively, but going on thewhole journey and involving the
family holistically might be abetter approach and they did try
(25:18):
it and they said, oh, it'sreally good.
Obviously the way we're workingat WorkSafe, so we put our
finger in and take it out, we doan inspection and then leave if
they're at compliance.
I haven't been able to, for alot of these interventions that
I do, which is, which is now I'moutside of that space, I do want
to check in and see how theprogress is going, but I
wouldn't have known if it wassuccessful or not, but yeah,
(25:41):
stimulating those workers andpulling on those those things
that stimulate them.
Like I said, Pacific Islanders,if we go to that circle, it's
quite a simple thing.
It's faith.
It's family and those are prettymuch your key pillars.
So in terms of other positionsand roles like management and
stuff, if they're wondering whythey're not yielding the
outcome, then maybe they're notpaying enough attention to their
(26:03):
staff as to what stimulates themand putting enough effort into
that.
Greg (26:07):
That's really interesting.
We've been talking for a longtime about the value of well
being, wellness programs and,maybe 10 years ago it was just,
corporate gym program and a bowlof fruit type of thing.
And I remember doing some workwith a guy who was a financial
wizard from the US and he cameout here and we were looking at
the return on investment on wellbeing programs.
And one of the things that hesays is, you need to understand
(26:30):
the demographics of Yourorganization and apply the most
appropriate well being programsto them.
And as you say, with a Pacificabased bunch of employees, it's
probably going to be thingsaround blood pressure,
cardiovascular health and thosesorts of things.
And maybe there's some spiritualrelated things that could be
(26:51):
part of that as well, that willactually.
Help them improve from a mentalhealth perspective or a
psychological safetyperspective.
And that could apply across manydifferent ethnicities, many
different cultures, that, thatlink to spirituality and those
types of things.
So yeah, I think maybe that's apodcast for another day but just
understanding the demographicsand maybe something about the
(27:13):
lives both from a wider culturalperspective, but from an
individual perspective as well.
Afele (27:19):
Oh yeah, you've got with Māori they have te whare tapa
whā with a lot of Pacific, theyhave wellbeing models.
They have wellbeing as to how wemanage ourselves, our wellbeing.
The Samoans, they have a mataisystem.
A matai is a chief.
And the process is to, if that'swhat that's their system.
If an employer, they don't haveto own that process, they don't
(27:40):
have to go in and own that wholetikanga Māori and all of that
stuff, but if they can extractthings or at least pathway that
worker to say, hey, if you'restruggling with things with your
mental health, go talk to yourmatai, or go talk to your
kaumatua.
Even with the migrants.
I worked with a lot of Filipinoswhen I was at WorkSafe.
I was saying, what systems andmethodologies do you guys have
(28:00):
to manage your guys well being?
And if you just ask thosequestions, it'll actually open
the door.
That they've probably beenwaiting for the employer to open
that door and say, hey, this isactually who I am.
This is why I do what I do.
If you want to get the best outof me, learn about me, And it
doesn't mean to say that youhave to embed that into the
(28:21):
policy all it is just beingresponsive and being genuine.
Greg (28:25):
Yeah, absolutely that's super helpful, and I guess,
we're almost at time, and I'dlove to wrap up our session with
any tips, and maybe you'vealready covered, there's been a
huge number of helpful sort ofscenarios that you've talked
about, but if you think about,your colleagues, your health and
safety colleagues out there inAotearoa.
(28:45):
Have you got any tips for themto learn about that they can
embrace, that they can use tomaybe create a more inclusive
way of dealing with Pacificaworkers when they're dealing
with health and safety?
A couple of go to things thatthey might be able to use?
Afele (29:03):
Yeah, for sure.
I guess the first thing I wouldsay is that if you're in a
health and safety role, and I'mnot trying to tell, health and
safety professionals how to suckeggs, but if you're in a
position like this, of allthings, it is, it comes down to
just, you gotta be a good human,upfront.
You gotta care for people ifyou're in an industry or, a
(29:24):
profession like health andsafety.
Because a lot of it will, theseed will grow out of that.
So it is about compassion,because yes, the operation, you
can, there's the two arms,there's operational, there's the
side of the company that needsto get stuff done, 1, 2, 3, A,
B, C, operationally we need toget this done, then there's the
side of getting that done safelyand a lot of them need to run
(29:48):
parallel, it needs to runparallel, they need to
intertwine, they need to be ableto think, so just that first
basis, like I said, not tellingeveryone how to do the
fundamentals, but that's where alot of it starts, that you have
to care about people if you'rein a role like this.
And then the next thing I wouldsay is yeah, we'll just go back
to that stimulation.
How would you stimulate yourworkers?
(30:08):
And for Pacifica workers inparticular, we're very visual,
so if you're to use Pictures ata toolbox, don't bring out the
SOP of eight pages or the SWMSof 75 pages sort of thing.
Storytell it.
Hey, we had an incident and showa picture and be able to
discuss.
What do you think?
(30:29):
What would you have done in thatscenario and have a session like
that or make it visual, make itinteractive and you'll get
better buy in as opposed to, thesupervisor just running through
the agenda, the toolbox agendasort of thing and no one's
paying attention.
Every time I try and I'm notsaying I'm perfect at this, You
asked me what my approach is,and it's very much, I do break
(30:49):
the ice, and humor has always,even throughout the session, hey
Greg, I'll try to make you laugha bit, because it makes it a bit
more enjoyable, I always usehumor.
So find out, again, the samerationale.
Find out what stimulates yourworkers and with Pacific
workers, a lot, things likeusing even if the professional
(31:12):
was to invest in adult teachingas a qualification it'll give
you some tools as to how, andthat, I know they're not Pacific
tools, but you can actually,influence them into a Pacific
pedagogy sort of thing, as tohow you teach and how you
portray information.
And you can use thosetechniques.
Things like Pacific workers arevery visual and kinesthetic
(31:35):
learning, so what I used toteach at Puataunofo was around
To help the workers retain theinformation, that will lead to
comprehension, I would saysomething like, remember the two
laws, and I'll chuck up twofingers, like the peace sign,
and I'll say, everyone in theroom, chuck up your two fingers
and do the, and what does thismean?
These two fingers represents thetwo laws.
(31:56):
Then I've attached thiskinesthetic action to that
explanation, and you see it intheir brain.
Oh, sorry, I won't share that.
I did share that one, but thefunny one, mate, that I'll share
with you, the kinesthetic one,and then I'll probably cap it at
this, is with the health andsafety regs, with the GRWM Regs,
there's their workers are, ifthey don't, if they've been
(32:18):
provided with their PPE, ifthey've been trained to use it,
Then they have a duty and aresponsibility to wear it and
follow the procedures, theprogram around it.
Legislatively, eh?
In the GRWM Regs, and if youlook at the infringement notices
of it, it'll show that a workeris actually Able to be fined$500
(32:39):
and what I would do is I wouldsay I'll chuck up a five and I
know it's not a scaremongeringbecause it's the law.
It's out there already.
So it's telling them what isalready there.
It's not trying to push a, likeI said, a primitive agenda, but
it was, but to have a laughabout it, I would say chuck up
your high five.
And every time one of yourcolleagues out in the field or
whatever, and they don't haveall of their PPE on, Chuck up
(33:01):
your five and what thatrepresents is$500 fine and the
funny thing about it is straightafter the presentation they're
all looking at me giving me achucking up their five straight
away and but it's fun you knowbecause like I said it's a
kinesthetic way of learning butthen it's so funny how oh yeah
we've been doing the high fiveand I was like oh good for you
mate but it's obviously itavoids them actually having to
(33:23):
an inspector has to come outsideand observe that and issue the
infringement.
It's never going to get, notnever, it's not going to get to
that level.
It's a prompt.
That's exactly what it's usedfor.
Just like a speed camera, eh?
A speed camera is there, you cansee it coming, it's not as if
you can duck it sort of thing.
It'll cause you to curtail yourbehaviour, to slow down to the
right speed, and once you'repast the speed camera, that's
(33:44):
another question, you've got tospeed off again.
But it's an accountabilitybetween staff to chuck up a
five.
So my whole point there isaround Pacific groupers are very
visual, very kinesthetic, veryhumorous and like a lot of
visuals, eh?
So if you can show pictures andhave an interactive session of
them, that's a good start.
Greg (34:02):
Awesome, awesome love the visual thing.
And as you say, it's just quitetimely that you talk about the
speed cameras'cause I think it'sbeen in the news today about,
you know the police taking overresponsibility for for speed
camera management from NZTA andthere's a big argument about
where the signs are going to goand why the signs aren't up and
as you say, it makes you slowdown as you're approaching the
(34:23):
camera but what you do afterthat is maybe a different story
but,
Afele (34:26):
I know where all the speed cameras are in, in South
Auckland, mate.
Greg (34:31):
Excellent.
Hey, awesome, Afele thanks forthat, it's been a great
conversation, some really coolguidance, and I'm sure that
those that are listening willtake away a whole bunch of stuff
from that.
Any final sort of words ofwisdom from the cooking school
or any other metaphors that youcan chuck our way?
Afele (34:52):
Yeah, I am cooking up another article there, mate,
just by the way.
Last time I had a conversationwith you, you had reiterated to
me that like I said, it's thebiggest response I've ever had
from a post and people genuinelylike to read it, like yourself.
I thought, oh I'll give him acrack.
Greg (35:05):
Awesome so what I'll do is I'll chuck your LinkedIn profile
into the show notes and ifpeople want to connect or just
do a bit of reading, I'm surethey can do that.
But yeah, thanks for your timeand have a good long weekend.
Afele (35:20):
Yeah, cheers Greg, thank you.
Greg (35:24):
What a wonderful story or bunch of stories really?
It started out with a Afeledescribing his experiences
working with members of thecommunity who need welfare
support.
And then he went on to guideindividuals who have ended up in
the prison system and how someof those lessons that he learned
were translated into its varioushealth and safety roles.
(35:47):
There's something to be said forlife experience and the impact
it can have on success as ahealth and safety professional.
Afele is right when he says itwas easier to work with a
scaffold system than it was towork with some of the challenges
he had with individuals atcorrections.
It's a great analogy for thevalue of what I call essential
(36:09):
skills.
Yes, our technical skills as ahealth and safety professional
are important.
But these essential skills orsometimes called people skills
are much more difficult tomaster.
Afele seems to have been amaster at some of these skills
in his career.
For me Afele is acutely aware ofhis own capabilities in the area
(36:32):
of both emotional and culturalintelligence.
You can feel it when listeningto his stories, and apparently
the man can also bake a cake.
I think Afele's approach ofsleeping on key decisions is an
important and smart one.
If he doesn't, he says it canturn up as a car crash.
(36:54):
For me Afele is a leader.
I would highly recommend youcheck out his LinkedIn profile
and read his story, MakingBread, Making Me, which is a
fabulous metaphor connected tohow he sees his health and
safety work.
Afele's profile connection is inthe show notes and there's also
a link to Worksafe's Puataunofopage, this is an area where
(37:16):
Afele worked for a period oftime supporting Pacifica
workers.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks again so much
for listening.
I hope you found somethingreally valuable that you can
take away that might enhanceaspects of your own cultural
intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
(37:39):
along with the other resourcespreviously mentioned.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence.
Get in touch with me viaLinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment.
If you see something thatresonates.
If we aren't connected.
Send me an invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ.
(37:59):
You can follow and subscribe tothis podcast, I would really
appreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week, I'm talking toMichelle Wu from Advanced
Safety.
Michelle is also the founder ofthe Asian Business Health Safety
and Environmental Network.
(38:19):
Thanks again for tuning into theculturally intelligent safety
professional.
Ka kitei.
Hey listeners welcome to another episode of the Cultural
Intelligent Safety Professional,a podcast aimed at providing a
platform where by safetyprofessionals can develop a
pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will in turn help themfunction more effectively when
working in a multiculturalsituation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experienceacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:43):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:03):
might be it is still full ofdiversity people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
Today I'm talking to Afele Paeawho has come through various
roles from Corrections, WorkSafein the Puataunofo team, he's
(01:25):
been a consultant and iscurrently the SHEQ Manager with
Landscape Solutions.
Fakaalofa Lahi Atu Afele, howare you doing?
Afele (01:35):
Fakaalofa Lahi Atu Greg.
I'm doing good thank you, thanksfor having me.
Greg (01:42):
That's quite a resume that you've got in terms of the range
of roles that you've undertakenover the last few years.
How do you go from being aprobation officer to a safety
manager?
Tell us a little bit about yourstory and how you got to where
you are now.
Afele (01:57):
Cheers Greg.
Yep my first job was actually Iguess under the table.
I was doing some painting forsome guys.
That was my first job and he hadme up on a scissor lift painting
these beams in Onehunga inAuckland.
And I knew nothing about safetyat that time, all I knew I was
getting a big feed out of it.
And we were using externalscissor lift or internal scissor
(02:18):
lift on the outside and thisthing was waving back and forth.
So that was my first experience,with workplace safety and stuff
or lack of safety, and I trustedthe guy too we used to go to
church together.
Shout out to the bro, Denny.
I'll forward it to him, but gooddude.
But yeah, that was my firstofficial role was working at
Work and Income and I was a casemanager.
(02:39):
So I was granting unemploymentbenefit and looking after
unemployment beneficiaries,caseload was huge, they were
ridiculous.
At that time, it was like 250people that are on the
unemployment benefit thatseemingly need to be readily
available for work.
For a 18-year-old it's a bigrole to take on.
But who I saw coming through thedoor was māori and pasifika, and
(03:03):
I could see and, not to go toodeep into it, but with my old
man and my upbringing I wasquite familiar with that
scenario of going into socialwelfare or work and income and
asking for food grants andstuff, so a lot of that wasn't
uncommon to me, except I was onthe other side of the table.
Best to be on the other side ofthe table and try and help.
So that was my first role and itgave me a real appreciation I
(03:26):
guess for seeing my communityfrom that lens and seeing where
I can help.
So that's what I learned there.
That second role was withDepartment of Corrections with
Community Probation Services asa probation officer.
You would think that the rolewouldn't be transferable but it
definitely does havetransferable skills, you're
managing risk, you're managingthe risk of, They have different
(03:48):
names now, but we called themoffenders.
We, the risk of the offender reoffending, and we had to use
risk assessment tools, which Istill use now, actually.
So part of the risk assessmenttools was assessing three
components their stable risk,their acute risk, and their
protective risk.
Those three factors I still holdon to today.
(04:09):
And I've in my own way made itinto my version of risk
assessment to make it work forme in terms of workplace health
and safety.
That role was really tough.
It got to the point where mymanager saw that I was quite
good at deescalating the gangmembers when they were coming or
irate and hostile.
Purely because they look likeme, and because I grew up around
(04:31):
a lot of them, and I wasn'tintimidated off the bat.
The physicality, yeah, they'llprobably knock me out, but in
terms of dealing with them andjust being sincere, I'm like,
man, I grew up with uncles likeyou guys.
You don't scare me, of allthings you're making this worse
for yourself, mate.
I just had a more empathetic,compassionate approach Still
being stern and saying, at theend of the day, you're the one
(04:52):
on sentence, not me.
And managing those risk factors,asking about, how is your, how
are your pro socialrelationships, and looking at
assessing risk on that scale,and breaking it down.
Corrections gave me some reallygood tools to assess risk which
I then crossed over to WorkSafe,I secured a role as a health and
safety inspector first whichI've done for eight years that
(05:13):
role definitely, I always jokeabout it when people ask, oh
man, how do you get, like howyou asked, how do you go from
being a probation officer tohealth and safety and to that
space, and I'm just like, Idon't know.
At Corrections, you're assessingthe risk of the individual, at
WorkSafe, you're assessing therisk of a scaffold.
And to be honest, a scaffold's alot more easier to work with
(05:36):
than the guy resisting you everytime he has to report in and do
his programs and stuff.
In that aspect, yeah, it was theskills were definitely
transferable and a lot of itcomes down to, what I've
noticed, it comes down tocommunication, how you talk to
people.
Yes, you might have the answers,but it's not about just spoon
feeding an answer.
There were offenders there thatI could say, man, you just need
(05:57):
to do this, and that, but that'snot gonna, they need to go on a
journey.
They need to go on a journey tounderstand why, what does
trigger them, why they do needto manage themselves, because
spoon feeding them the answer,if you're not there, it just
creates a dependence.
And it's exactly the same insafety, that I had observed, is
that I would go to constructionsites, and so I patrolled, I
(06:20):
guess I won't get into detailabout it, but I patrolled a
certain area of Auckland, andjust every probation health and
safety inspector does, and therewere just repetitive things,
working at height, the siteconditions, poor electrical
safety, and poor considerationfor the general public.
And those were the key thingsthat kept popping up.
(06:42):
On top of the asbestos relatedstuff and the silica dust and
whatnot, which were the focusesat the time with WorkSafe, I
would see things there that, Iwould say, mate, all you need to
do to be compliant is A, B, C,and D.
If you don't, then I'm gonnahave to issue a notice, either
improvement or prohibition.
(07:03):
But the thing is that, usingpunitive measures doesn't change
people's behaviours.
And, that's the thing, is yearone of me getting my warrant and
doing inspections, to year five,I think it was, five years into
the inspector role, I was seeingthe same company dealing with
the same issues from year one.
And I'm like, What the heck, andthe thing is that there wasn't
(07:25):
an appetite to change because,yeah, they just wanted to
continue doing what they weredoing, how they were doing it,
despite you saying, hey, this ishow you be compliant.
It really does come down totrying to influence and trying
to be Again, like I said, youcan lead the horse to water, but
you can't force it to drink.
And there's so much times where,even with some of these
(07:48):
offenders that I was dealingwith, I was like, man, your
kids, you've got to do the rightthing for the next one.
But those are my values, and Ican't push my values onto them.
For a better life for yourself,you need to make these better
choices again, but they won'tappreciate that until they go on
that journey for themselves.
It's a tricky one.
It's a tricky one in terms ofbeing able to identify those
dynamics but my heart is in it.
(08:10):
That's what I've always held onto.
My heart has always been for thepeople.
Whether I was granting benefitsthrough grants or advances or
full power in rent arrears totrying to, help some of these
guys that were on sentence atcorrections that were genuine,
that didn't want to change.
I'll say mate, I'll meet youhalfway.
I'll absolutely meet youhalfway.
(08:30):
If you're willing to make theright steps, I'll be there and
dealing with WorkSafe.
Yeah, absolutely.
Those duty holders that neededto, it was quite cool in that
aspect, because as a regulator,you had the, they listen when
you talk, when you offer advicethey do take that advice.
They say, okay, you can offerthem best practice guidelines
and things like that to helpthem align.
(08:51):
But whilst I was doing thehealth and safety inspector
stuff and that's where I startedto swing more towards a Pacific
responsiveness because theStatistics for Pacific people in
New Zealand.
Very much everything that I'veseen, unemployment, I saw
Pacific people walking throughthe door.
Incarceration, I saw Maori andPacific coming through the door.
And now even in the workplace,we're the ones being seriously
(09:13):
injured in the workplace.
I'm seeing the, I'll cross theboard and I thought, oh I liked
health and safety more than Idid the corrections side of
things.
I got a bit heavy at correctionsdealing with some high risk
issues, high risk people thathave done some high risk stuff
from sexual offending and youhave to write pre sentence
reports for the district courtjudges, go into detail and
(09:34):
identify, really analyse thesummary of facts and getting
their statements and seeingwhere their mindset was, that
became a bit heavy a lot heavy,actually, to the point where I
was like, oh, man, dealing withthe scaffold is a lot easier
than dealing with the recidivistoffender, because all I need to
do is tell the scaffold to makeAB they already know.
But then they get angry atobviously the builders, it's
(09:56):
easier to deal with that becauseit's like a formula there.
It's like a one plus one equalstwo.
You can get it back in alignmentwith overnight sort of thing you
can get the scaffolder back on.
But with someone that hasissues, you can change the
behavioral change that doesstuff doesn't have to change
overnight.
So I found that working atWorkSafe gave me a lot more.
And like I said, so many moretowards the pacific side of
things, being a Pacific personmyself, my father being Niuean
(10:18):
and me growing up in my cultureand my mum being Māori.
Growing up in my cultures andunderstanding what protocols and
processes are in place.
And like I said, actually beingable to empathize with a lot of
the workforce, they were in thesame position as my upbringing.
I see a lot of similarities.
We didn't grow up with much soit allowed me to actually
connect them quite easily andempathize with them and see, oh,
(10:41):
I know it's not an easy fix, butI'm in the fight with them.
Yeah that's a big spurt of mycareer profile.
Greg (10:47):
That's cool and I guess just to carry on with that
theme, obviously you've talked alittle bit about culture, even
just the cultural differencebetween some of our listeners
maybe and some of the peoplethat you've had to deal with in
terms of probation services orother jobs you've had and your
LinkedIn profile tells a littlebit of a story about your
(11:07):
thought processes and yourconnection to culture.
And I want to quote somethingand it's something that you've
put on LinkedIn, and we've beentalking about it a little bit
over the last few weeks.
You wrote a little bit of ametaphor back in, 2021 and I
just want to quote it back toyou and it goes like this.
"All of this is racing throughmy mind.
(11:27):
And I'm quickly internalizingeverything, from my tone,
volume, the speed at which thewords exit my mouth, even to how
I am sitting.
In these split seconds, Ihaven't polished my metaphor,
but I figure there's an honestyand a vulnerability in at least
being in the ballpark of what Iwant to say, and letting the
(11:49):
room indirectly help me getthere." And based on that
description, I can tell that youwould score quite highly in what
we call CQ Action.
You understand the environmentthat you're in, and what it
might be about the words youwant to say, your non verbal
behaviours.
And your ability to tweak thoseto try and create influence to
(12:14):
adjust your presence, your wordsand your body language and your
ability to adapt seems quitewell developed.
Cast your mind back to thatmoment.
August 2021.
How did it feel to be aroundthat board table, and what was
the response from others in theroom when you said your bit?
Afele (12:35):
Yeah, cheers mate.
When I was writing that and Imentioned right at the beginning
I've never done that before, andI just wanted to, I felt I had
something to say.
On the day, yes, but thenafterwards I thought there was
something bigger that I could Icould fully capture, and that's
why I chucked it on the page.
I started typing it up, and atthe time, it was my, those years
(12:59):
going from an inspector into aprincipal advisory role, um,
you're immediately coming offthe front line and going into a
strategic role and there were, Ihave a lot of self awareness of
that stuff.
So for me, I've always wanted tojust put my best foot forward
and I wanted to add value and Iwas looking for an opportunity.
(13:23):
Like I said, I was confident.
of why I was in the room becauseI know I could connect in with a
lot of the workforce thatrepresent those statistics.
And when I was talking aboutthose details that you were
going on about too, the way I'msitting and how I say it, it's
because I want to be perceivedproperly.
I want to be perceived in theright way.
(13:44):
And I guess from some otherexperiences.
I've had trouble with perceptionas to people look at me and they
think I'm just a grunt, I'm thisbig dude, but the thing is,
mate, a quick, a nice littlequick story on that.
I bake mate, I bake the mostbeautiful banana and chocolate
cakes you'll ever taste.
Yeah, I'm coming around.
(14:05):
Where is it?
When I was taking it, when I wastaking it to work, when I was at
corrections, they were like, oh,did your wife bake this?
And I was like, no I baked it,mate.
And they're like, oh, no a biggrunt.
Like you can't bake.
And I'm like I just did, mate.
You're eating you're eating whatI've made.
And and I'm not saying it's theperception that comes, but I
guess it was a lot of, for me,there was a self-perception of
(14:25):
do I deserve to be in the room?
So I do want to be perceivedproperly.
And then I just have to hold onto those first principles of
trying to do the best for whatI'm trying to achieve.
I'm there to try and help mypeople be safe.
And I saw an opportunity here.
So I was like, Oh take a deepbreath, breathe out.
And then that was that wholeprocess of me.
(14:46):
I did go into finer details.
I was being a bit dramatic to behonest, but in terms of trying
to make it a bit more dramaticand more cinematic in that way,
to the way I'm sitting in that'sjust me growing up on, 80s
movies, to be honest.
And that's the point I storytold it, but yeah that's what
was going through my mind wasjust trying to provide value,
but at the same time be genuineand I am self conscious of all
(15:09):
those things, my tone, speed atwhich I talk because like I
said, some, there, there areself perceptions and perceptions
that I don't want to be.
What's that word?
Not perceived ideally the way Idon't want to be perceived.
So I want to show people that Iwant to help, and I, and
whatever it takes sort of thing.
So I'm trying to be a strategicand being, like I said, in those
(15:31):
earlier years, trying to be asstrategic as possible, I would
absolutely watch what I wouldsay.
And at the beginning of thatarticle, I'd mentioned that.
I think about things.
I've learned that about myself.
I don't just go straight off thebat.
I process it because I know myinternal process is that if I
spit out things that just, myraw response to, a car crash
(15:51):
happens in front of me orsomeone cuts me off and I, just
raw response it's ugly.
And I know that.
I need to compose And by thetime I sleep, like even
overnight, usually I'll sleep ondecisions and I've learned that
about myself, that I'll sleep onit and then I'll have a totally
different perspective bytomorrow.
At first I'll be quiteaggressive and quite raw and
(16:14):
then I'm just thinking this isnot working for me.
For the first couple of times Itried it, speaking off the hip
and some people they can speakoff the hip and it's, it has
deep insight and I'm like, man,I wish I could do that, but I
don't.
And but that's all right.
I have that self awareness thatI'll follow my steps in my
process.
So when I start thinking aboutthings, people think I'm quiet
or I'm, and I'm just like, nah,I'm just keeping myself safe.
Greg (16:35):
Absolutely.
And I think again, I said,before I talked about CQ action
with all of those, nonverbal andspeech behaviors and all of
those sorts of things, butactually a couple of things
you've said there aroundunderstanding why you're in the
room and thinking about whyyou're in the room and
strategizing.
That's another key component ofthis cultural intelligence
(16:56):
concept about planning, whenyou're going to be in a
multicultural situation.
And of course, when I use thosewords multicultural, I'm not
just talking about ethnicity,you've talked about coming from
the front line to the boardroom,that's a different culture in
itself.
And so you had an idea of howyou wanted to be portrayed or
how you wanted to portrayyourself in that environment.
(17:17):
It's I wonder if it's notnecessarily about perception,
it's more about what you think,or how you think you want to be,
or want to portray yourself.
As well as maybe there was alittle bit about how you think
you should be but actually Ithink it's probably more about
what you think is, The right wayto behave for you in that
environment.
(17:37):
And it also sounds like you'vedone a hell of a lot of
reflection on what you think,what you believe trying to
understand your reactions andyour responses to certain
things.
That, that's really cool.
I love that story, that widerstory that you told.
You've talked about being a goodcook, a good baker and for those
that are listening, I'dcertainly encourage you to go
(17:58):
and check out Afele's LinkedInprofile and look for the article
called Making Bread Making Meand just how you weave that
story about the art of makingbread into a story about health
and safety and I think youdecided, you talked about
deciding to use that metaphorwhile you were sitting around
that table.
(18:19):
Have you always been astoryteller?
Afele (18:22):
Yeah, put short, yeah, I talk a lot of kaka there, Greg
yeah, I've always tried toportray myself or portray my
views.
With stories, absolutely.
Me and a quick little story, isme and my brothers, growing up,
we, like I said, we watch a lotof movies.
And we got this thing wheneverwe get together, all we're doing
is just quoting movie lines linefor line.
(18:43):
And that's how we would have afull conversation of just going
through a scene.
In a movie, and it could beRocky, it could be The Matrix,
it could be La Bamba, but I'mgoing through me and my brothers
that's how, we didn't have toys,mate, so we had to make up our
own entertainment, and we wouldwatch yeah, watch these movies
and yeah, even to today, when weget together for our kids
(19:06):
birthdays, we're all older now,and we've got kids, and, hook up
with our siblings and stuffwe're still doing the same,
mate, we're still Portrayingourselves, not portraying but
we're still talking inmetaphors, we're still talking
through either songs, like we'lleven do this thing where we'll
just Like randomly just test oneanother and say some and just
say a line out of a movie andjust say what movie is that and
(19:29):
it would be this huge thing thatwould test one and it was a huge
thing it's still a huge thingfor us now that if we were to
just pick up so to answer yourquestion that yeah we I've
always I guess portrayed myselfin that way or you know I've
portrayed my views and I'veextended it to myself I guess
professionally where I wouldshare my views something as
simple as the cartoons I used towatch growing up and would be in
(19:52):
a team meeting and then I'll be,I'll quote, innocently, I'll
quote, oh yeah, so they'll say,oh yeah, Afele you can team up
with with Sula, James and Vase,and I'll be like, hey Voltron,
because I grew up watchingVoltron and I'll just say stuff
like that to, to perceive whatI'm, what's in my head.
And I'll be like, hey Voltron,and then what are you talking
about?
And I was like, oh, sorry.
So it's a Paea thing to behonest.
(20:14):
It's a Paea family thing, butyeah, telling stories and it's
become, even more so, prominentthrough my professional
development and working at workand income, working at probation
and working at WorkSafe whereI've been able to gather a lot
of professional stories now andbe able to portray those views
(20:35):
through proper lived experience,as opposed to trying to tell
someone something, I'll chuck itinto a story or a movie line or
something like that.
Just something a bit morepalatable for their ears, or
more relatable.
Greg (20:48):
So the other piece of that story, Making Bread Making Me,
that I liked and the story, itwas like full of moments that
I'm going, wow, this is just,this is just great writing.
And I've, I've said thatpublicly that I think you should
do a lot more of it.
But you said,"find whatstimulates your workers and give
them assurance that it's a warmenvironment to do" and I guess
(21:08):
that's almost on thatpsychological safety side of
things, but.
I wanted to focus on the intentof that sentence and consider it
from a health and safetyprofessional's perspective and
rather than considering it inthe context of ethnicity I want
to consider it in the context ofcultural difference, but the
cultural difference that mightexist between your average
(21:31):
health and safety professionaland a senior manager.
So not, as I say, not an ethnicdiscussion, But more an
organizational hierarchydiscussion.
As I've said before, there is,there's obviously a, there's a
cultural difference betweenthose two positions within a
hierarchy.
So I think that statement thatyou made about finding what
(21:52):
stimulates your workers, swapout the word workers for find
what stimulates the manager orthe CFO or the sales manager or
whoever it might be, the leaderof the organization and really
just try and find out from themwhat spins their wheels.
And then have the discussionabout why you're suggesting this
health and safety initiative andtry and link it in with a story.
(22:16):
So I think that how you canapply that statement that you've
made across a number ofdifferent sort of scenarios.
Afele (22:23):
Yeah, definitely Greg.
I think you've plucked it outthere's a deeper meaning to that
statement of stimulate yourworkers.
What I'm saying, like whatyou're saying, it doesn't matter
if you're Samoan, Niuean,Tongan, Cook Island, whatever,
ethnic culture, find whatstimulates the person.
Because that's how you canextract the best out of them and
it takes energy and effort to dothat and it's energy and effort
(22:46):
that I'm not seeing, to behonest, and maybe that's just
within my own world, but I'm notseeing the effort to help
people, invest their energy intoit, into understanding what,
what stimulates them, and for,what I can say is for a lot of
Māori and Pasifika, that it verymuch is family mate.
What stimulates a lot ofPacifica is family.
(23:06):
I remember going to a companythat shucks oysters, and I've
done an inspection there.
And they kept saying, oh, a lotof the staff, they had a lot of
Islanders that were shucking anda lot of them were saying that a
lot of the staff members aregetting gout because they're
eating the oysters.
And it was a big deal becausethey would have a lot of their
(23:26):
production line off because theylove seafood, I love seafood.
They love seafood and it's shuckone, eat one, nah, I'm not going
to do that.
But they, had thing that a lotof our staff and it was becoming
an issue for the company that alot of staff were taking time
off because of gout.
And then I, they said, we don'tknow what to do because we can't
not have them not shuck theseoysters.
(23:48):
So what can we do?
And they asked me for a solutionand I was like you got a bunch
of Samoans and Tongans and Isaid you need to really.
This is what comes, this is theway I see it, this is what comes
with that role.
You're riding, you're like a kidin a candy store, so to speak,
and they want to eat what's infront of them, so that's where
you're getting a lot of theissues with, and that's what the
(24:10):
job is.
So what I said was, mate, you'vegot to change the whole, you've
got to change the whole system.
And they asked me how, and Isaid the best way to get the
best out of the island men,because a lot of them are men
get the best out of these islandmen is talk to the island wife,
and they will definitely, andtake the family on a journey.
How about you take the wholefamily and say, for your guys
health benefits how about you doa whole health push, a full on
(24:34):
health push program, and involvethe family, because the workers
are only accountable from theirjob description, from 8 to 5, or
whatever their time, but outsideof those hours, it's the wife.
The wife is, is the one that'sgonna crack the whip and hold
them accountable, so if you takethe family on a journey, you Try
(24:55):
that approach.
And I said, because, she willdefinitely crack the whip if
they can see that it's havingnegative health benefits.
And if you were to do somethinglike health testing, blood
pressure and things like thatand blood tests and see if
there's any underlying issuesand obviously approach it
sensitively, but going on thewhole journey and involving the
family holistically might be abetter approach and they did try
(25:18):
it and they said, oh, it'sreally good.
Obviously the way we're workingat WorkSafe, so we put our
finger in and take it out, we doan inspection and then leave if
they're at compliance.
I haven't been able to, for alot of these interventions that
I do, which is, which is now I'moutside of that space, I do want
to check in and see how theprogress is going, but I
wouldn't have known if it wassuccessful or not, but yeah,
(25:41):
stimulating those workers andpulling on those those things
that stimulate them.
Like I said, Pacific Islanders,if we go to that circle, it's
quite a simple thing.
It's faith.
It's family and those are prettymuch your key pillars.
So in terms of other positionsand roles like management and
stuff, if they're wondering whythey're not yielding the
outcome, then maybe they're notpaying enough attention to their
(26:03):
staff as to what stimulates themand putting enough effort into
that.
Greg (26:07):
That's really interesting.
We've been talking for a longtime about the value of well
being, wellness programs and,maybe 10 years ago it was just,
corporate gym program and a bowlof fruit type of thing.
And I remember doing some workwith a guy who was a financial
wizard from the US and he cameout here and we were looking at
the return on investment on wellbeing programs.
And one of the things that hesays is, you need to understand
(26:30):
the demographics of Yourorganization and apply the most
appropriate well being programsto them.
And as you say, with a Pacificabased bunch of employees, it's
probably going to be thingsaround blood pressure,
cardiovascular health and thosesorts of things.
And maybe there's some spiritualrelated things that could be
(26:51):
part of that as well, that willactually.
Help them improve from a mentalhealth perspective or a
psychological safetyperspective.
And that could apply across manydifferent ethnicities, many
different cultures, that, thatlink to spirituality and those
types of things.
So yeah, I think maybe that's apodcast for another day but just
understanding the demographicsand maybe something about the
(27:13):
lives both from a wider culturalperspective, but from an
individual perspective as well.
Afele (27:19):
Oh yeah, you've got with Māori they have te whare tapa
whā with a lot of Pacific, theyhave wellbeing models.
They have wellbeing as to how wemanage ourselves, our wellbeing.
The Samoans, they have a mataisystem.
A matai is a chief.
And the process is to, if that'swhat that's their system.
If an employer, they don't haveto own that process, they don't
(27:40):
have to go in and own that wholetikanga Māori and all of that
stuff, but if they can extractthings or at least pathway that
worker to say, hey, if you'restruggling with things with your
mental health, go talk to yourmatai, or go talk to your
kaumatua.
Even with the migrants.
I worked with a lot of Filipinoswhen I was at WorkSafe.
I was saying, what systems andmethodologies do you guys have
(28:00):
to manage your guys well being?
And if you just ask thosequestions, it'll actually open
the door.
That they've probably beenwaiting for the employer to open
that door and say, hey, this isactually who I am.
This is why I do what I do.
If you want to get the best outof me, learn about me, And it
doesn't mean to say that youhave to embed that into the
(28:21):
policy all it is just beingresponsive and being genuine.
Greg (28:25):
Yeah, absolutely that's super helpful, and I guess,
we're almost at time, and I'dlove to wrap up our session with
any tips, and maybe you'vealready covered, there's been a
huge number of helpful sort ofscenarios that you've talked
about, but if you think about,your colleagues, your health and
safety colleagues out there inAotearoa.
(28:45):
Have you got any tips for themto learn about that they can
embrace, that they can use tomaybe create a more inclusive
way of dealing with Pacificaworkers when they're dealing
with health and safety?
A couple of go to things thatthey might be able to use?
Afele (29:03):
Yeah, for sure.
I guess the first thing I wouldsay is that if you're in a
health and safety role, and I'mnot trying to tell, health and
safety professionals how to suckeggs, but if you're in a
position like this, of allthings, it is, it comes down to
just, you gotta be a good human,upfront.
You gotta care for people ifyou're in an industry or, a
(29:24):
profession like health andsafety.
Because a lot of it will, theseed will grow out of that.
So it is about compassion,because yes, the operation, you
can, there's the two arms,there's operational, there's the
side of the company that needsto get stuff done, 1, 2, 3, A,
B, C, operationally we need toget this done, then there's the
side of getting that done safelyand a lot of them need to run
(29:48):
parallel, it needs to runparallel, they need to
intertwine, they need to be ableto think, so just that first
basis, like I said, not tellingeveryone how to do the
fundamentals, but that's where alot of it starts, that you have
to care about people if you'rein a role like this.
And then the next thing I wouldsay is yeah, we'll just go back
to that stimulation.
How would you stimulate yourworkers?
(30:08):
And for Pacifica workers inparticular, we're very visual,
so if you're to use Pictures ata toolbox, don't bring out the
SOP of eight pages or the SWMSof 75 pages sort of thing.
Storytell it.
Hey, we had an incident and showa picture and be able to
discuss.
What do you think?
(30:29):
What would you have done in thatscenario and have a session like
that or make it visual, make itinteractive and you'll get
better buy in as opposed to, thesupervisor just running through
the agenda, the toolbox agendasort of thing and no one's
paying attention.
Every time I try and I'm notsaying I'm perfect at this, You
asked me what my approach is,and it's very much, I do break
(30:49):
the ice, and humor has always,even throughout the session, hey
Greg, I'll try to make you laugha bit, because it makes it a bit
more enjoyable, I always usehumor.
So find out, again, the samerationale.
Find out what stimulates yourworkers and with Pacific
workers, a lot, things likeusing even if the professional
(31:12):
was to invest in adult teachingas a qualification it'll give
you some tools as to how, andthat, I know they're not Pacific
tools, but you can actually,influence them into a Pacific
pedagogy sort of thing, as tohow you teach and how you
portray information.
And you can use thosetechniques.
Things like Pacific workers arevery visual and kinesthetic
(31:35):
learning, so what I used toteach at Puataunofo was around
To help the workers retain theinformation, that will lead to
comprehension, I would saysomething like, remember the two
laws, and I'll chuck up twofingers, like the peace sign,
and I'll say, everyone in theroom, chuck up your two fingers
and do the, and what does thismean?
These two fingers represents thetwo laws.
(31:56):
Then I've attached thiskinesthetic action to that
explanation, and you see it intheir brain.
Oh, sorry, I won't share that.
I did share that one, but thefunny one, mate, that I'll share
with you, the kinesthetic one,and then I'll probably cap it at
this, is with the health andsafety regs, with the GRWM Regs,
there's their workers are, ifthey don't, if they've been
(32:18):
provided with their PPE, ifthey've been trained to use it,
Then they have a duty and aresponsibility to wear it and
follow the procedures, theprogram around it.
Legislatively, eh?
In the GRWM Regs, and if youlook at the infringement notices
of it, it'll show that a workeris actually Able to be fined$500
(32:39):
and what I would do is I wouldsay I'll chuck up a five and I
know it's not a scaremongeringbecause it's the law.
It's out there already.
So it's telling them what isalready there.
It's not trying to push a, likeI said, a primitive agenda, but
it was, but to have a laughabout it, I would say chuck up
your high five.
And every time one of yourcolleagues out in the field or
whatever, and they don't haveall of their PPE on, Chuck up
(33:01):
your five and what thatrepresents is$500 fine and the
funny thing about it is straightafter the presentation they're
all looking at me giving me achucking up their five straight
away and but it's fun you knowbecause like I said it's a
kinesthetic way of learning butthen it's so funny how oh yeah
we've been doing the high fiveand I was like oh good for you
mate but it's obviously itavoids them actually having to
(33:23):
an inspector has to come outsideand observe that and issue the
infringement.
It's never going to get, notnever, it's not going to get to
that level.
It's a prompt.
That's exactly what it's usedfor.
Just like a speed camera, eh?
A speed camera is there, you cansee it coming, it's not as if
you can duck it sort of thing.
It'll cause you to curtail yourbehaviour, to slow down to the
right speed, and once you'repast the speed camera, that's
(33:44):
another question, you've got tospeed off again.
But it's an accountabilitybetween staff to chuck up a
five.
So my whole point there isaround Pacific groupers are very
visual, very kinesthetic, veryhumorous and like a lot of
visuals, eh?
So if you can show pictures andhave an interactive session of
them, that's a good start.
Greg (34:02):
Awesome, awesome love the visual thing.
And as you say, it's just quitetimely that you talk about the
speed cameras'cause I think it'sbeen in the news today about,
you know the police taking overresponsibility for for speed
camera management from NZTA andthere's a big argument about
where the signs are going to goand why the signs aren't up and
as you say, it makes you slowdown as you're approaching the
(34:23):
camera but what you do afterthat is maybe a different story
but,
Afele (34:26):
I know where all the speed cameras are in, in South
Auckland, mate.
Greg (34:31):
Excellent.
Hey, awesome, Afele thanks forthat, it's been a great
conversation, some really coolguidance, and I'm sure that
those that are listening willtake away a whole bunch of stuff
from that.
Any final sort of words ofwisdom from the cooking school
or any other metaphors that youcan chuck our way?
Afele (34:52):
Yeah, I am cooking up another article there, mate,
just by the way.
Last time I had a conversationwith you, you had reiterated to
me that like I said, it's thebiggest response I've ever had
from a post and people genuinelylike to read it, like yourself.
I thought, oh I'll give him acrack.
Greg (35:05):
Awesome so what I'll do is I'll chuck your LinkedIn profile
into the show notes and ifpeople want to connect or just
do a bit of reading, I'm surethey can do that.
But yeah, thanks for your timeand have a good long weekend.
Afele (35:20):
Yeah, cheers Greg, thank you.
Greg (35:24):
What a wonderful story or bunch of stories really?
It started out with a Afeledescribing his experiences
working with members of thecommunity who need welfare
support.
And then he went on to guideindividuals who have ended up in
the prison system and how someof those lessons that he learned
were translated into its varioushealth and safety roles.
(35:47):
There's something to be said forlife experience and the impact
it can have on success as ahealth and safety professional.
Afele is right when he says itwas easier to work with a
scaffold system than it was towork with some of the challenges
he had with individuals atcorrections.
It's a great analogy for thevalue of what I call essential
(36:09):
skills.
Yes, our technical skills as ahealth and safety professional
are important.
But these essential skills orsometimes called people skills
are much more difficult tomaster.
Afele seems to have been amaster at some of these skills
in his career.
For me Afele is acutely aware ofhis own capabilities in the area
(36:32):
of both emotional and culturalintelligence.
You can feel it when listeningto his stories, and apparently
the man can also bake a cake.
I think Afele's approach ofsleeping on key decisions is an
important and smart one.
If he doesn't, he says it canturn up as a car crash.
(36:54):
For me Afele is a leader.
I would highly recommend youcheck out his LinkedIn profile
and read his story, MakingBread, Making Me, which is a
fabulous metaphor connected tohow he sees his health and
safety work.
Afele's profile connection is inthe show notes and there's also
a link to Worksafe's Puataunofopage, this is an area where
(37:16):
Afele worked for a period oftime supporting Pacifica
workers.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks again so much
for listening.
I hope you found somethingreally valuable that you can
take away that might enhanceaspects of your own cultural
intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
(37:39):
along with the other resourcespreviously mentioned.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence.
Get in touch with me viaLinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment.
If you see something thatresonates.
If we aren't connected.
Send me an invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ.
(37:59):
You can follow and subscribe tothis podcast, I would really
appreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week, I'm talking toMichelle Wu from Advanced
Safety.
Michelle is also the founder ofthe Asian Business Health Safety
and Environmental Network.
(38:19):
Thanks again for tuning into theculturally intelligent safety
professional.
Ka kitei.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!