April 24, 2024 • 31 mins
In this episode we head East and explore Asian Cultural Values and how they might impact on migrant workforce health and safety experiences, knowledge and outcomes.
Our guest is Michelle Wu who is a Health and Safety Professional with Advanced Safety and founder of the Asian Business Health, Safety and Environmental Network which is a not for profit organisation which aims to break down cultural barriers to promote a strong health and safety culture among Asian businesses.
Join us as Michelle explores some Asian cultural values like Power Distance and the deference to hierarchy, Direct and Indirect Context and Collectivism.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-w-a1813995/
https://abhsen.co.nz/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/asian-business-health-safety-and-environment-network-incorporated-590ab7278/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional, a podcastaimed it providing a platform,
whereby safety professionals candevelop a pathway to enhance
their cultural intelligencecapability, which will in turn,
help them function moreeffectively when working in a
multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:43):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you,
the listener enhance yourcultural intelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in a diverse environmentand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:06):
might be it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
So today I'm talking to MichelleWu from Advanced Safety.
Michelle is a chartered memberof IOSH, a certified
professional with NZISM and thefounder of the Asian Business
(01:31):
Health, Safety and EnvironmentalNetwork, which is a non profit
organisation that aims to breakdown cultural barriers to
promote strong health and safetyculture among Asian businesses,
Ni Hao Ma, Michelle great tohave you on the show today.
Michelle (01:47):
Thank you so much for the warm introduction Greg it's
such a pleasure to be here I'mtruly excited to have the
opportunity to join you on thispodcast and also to discuss
safety culture with you.
Greg (02:00):
I think just before we do start with our conversation it's
timely given the events of thelast week or so that I would
like to just acknowledge theevents that happened in Taiwan
with the earthquake given thatwe're going to be talking about
Asian culture and health andsafety in our chat, so hope that
(02:20):
that is resolved as best as itcan be over the next few weeks.
Michelle, I'm really keen tohear more about your Asian
Business Health and SafetyNetwork, but maybe first, if you
can give the audience a bit ofan introduction to yourself and
how you ended up in health andsafety doing the work that you
do.
Michelle (02:38):
Yeah, sure.
So actually like the transitioninto the health and safety
fields was like a life turningpoint for me and originally I
was worked as an accountant, butonce switched my job to join the
Scaffolding company.
So the new job required me toassist the health and safety
manager with some health andsafety paperwork.
(02:59):
And then my boss enrolled meinto a level three workplace
health and safety managementcourse.
And the more I dived into healthand safety and the more I think
it's resonated with me.
And I came to New Zealand in2011.
And since then, I've heard quitea lot of stories about migrants
(03:19):
suffering from workplaceinjuries and also the challenge
they are facing in assertingtheir rights.
And to see their struggling,it's really ignited my desire to
support their safety and wellbeing.
And I think this is drivingforce behind my commitment to
this field and also mydedication to supporting the
(03:40):
migrants.
And to enhance my knowledge andalso the proficiencies in the
health and safety management, Ipursued some further
qualifications.
So I completed the NEBOSHInternational Diploma and also
gain some valuable experienceover time, which has led me to
become a Chartered Practitioner.
Greg (04:03):
That's really cool and good to hear your commitment and
I was going to ask you aboutyour why, why do you do this?
And so you've delved into that alittle bit about the impact of
health and safety or poor healthand safety outcomes on migrant
workforces.
In fact, I was having aconversation loosely around that
(04:23):
subject with somebody else thisweek.
And so is the, migrant healthand safety performance quite
significant here in New Zealandfrom what you've learned?
Michelle (04:33):
Yes, and I don't think it's not only like the migrants
and also for example thosemigrants who have started their
construction business.
And as a business owners theyare'nt very aware how to manage
health and safety at workplaceto protect their workers safety.
And that's another concern forme as well.
(04:54):
And most of the time when ourinspectors go on site, so you
will find like probably 80percent of the time if you go to
a Asian construction site, thehealth and safety measures are
not really adequately managed,which is, it also shows the
safety culture among the Asianbusiness is often poor compared
(05:14):
to our local business.
And there comes to my anotherreason, which is to improve the
safety culture and then tochange the reputation of the
Asian business around the safetyculture is another significant
motivation for the work I do.
Greg (05:29):
I was reading something recently and it was it was a
quote from a chap that washeading the investigation into
the Fukushima nuclear powerplant disaster in Japan more
than 10 years ago now.
And we know that this incidentwas largely caused.
By an earthquake and asubsequent tsunami, but that's
(05:53):
not what the investigationpinned the root cause on, and I
want to read you the passage orthe quote from this person who
was who headed up theinvestigation.
He said.
"What must be admitted, verypainfully, is that this was a
disaster made in Japan.
Its fundamental causes are to befound in the ingrained
(06:13):
conventions of Japanese culture,our reflexive obedience, our
reluctance to questionauthority, our devotion to
sticking with the program, ourgroupism, and our insularity.
Had other Japanese been in theshoes of those who bear the
responsibility for thisaccident, the result may well
(06:34):
have been the same." Now we'lltake that quote for what it is
and put it aside because I wantto talk to you now about Your
network group and that the AsianBusiness Health and Safety
Network and I know you've got apage on LinkedIn and you talk
there about maybe some of thestuff you've already mentioned
the high risks and the lack ofhealth and safety culture among
(06:57):
Asian businesses in New Zealandand you talk about vulnerable
communities such as Asianworkers.
And you mentioned them beingunaware of their health and
safety rights and liabilities.
Probably not a lot there that wedidn't really already know.
But then you say that yourorganization recognizes that
safety concerns are overlooked,or are often overlooked in Asian
(07:19):
work cultures due to the stronginternal hierarchies that
discourage workers from speakingup.
And when you read that commentfrom your LinkedIn page and put
it next to the quote from theFukushima investigation, it
starts to tell a little bit of astory.
And I guess I'm keen to get yourtake on that, and do we have an
(07:40):
understanding in New Zealandabout the real impact Asian
culture might have on theirhealth and safety and the health
and safety of their workers herein New Zealand.
Michelle (07:49):
Definitely.
I think there will be links.
So let's say like for the Asianmind side is like very
hierarchy.
So in the company if I was as aworker, I have to listen to what
my boss told me.
So whatever the task my bosslets me to do, and then give me
the dead line, I have to finishbefore that, and I can't say no.
(08:10):
And then you will find a bitlike a funnest like if something
wrong when the boss told youlike give the wrong instructions
and then turns out, okay, so theevent has been turned really
bad.
But at the end, You were the onesaid, okay, it's my fault.
It's not my boss fault.
So you are the one who have tolike, take all and then to said,
(08:32):
okay, this is my fault, which isit's something like, it's not
like our local business to andanother thing is like most the
migrants here, like they havethe work visa, which is purely
depends on the employer, whichis the accredited employer work
visa.
Another concern is when theworkers appeared really depends
(08:53):
on the employer to provide thework visa, it's really strict
the workers to actually speakthe truth and the fact about how
they think about the workplace.
And if they do, then theemployer probably going to fire
them.
And because the workers doesn'tknow what's the rights.
for them.
So they rather okay, so I don'twant to bring any troubles to
(09:16):
myself.
I just want to like work as whatI have told.
And that's all.
And this is like how you becomelike the culture is like they
bring their own culture to NewZealand, but not really adapt to
our New Zealand employment law.
Greg (09:33):
So you talked about a couple of things there the can't
say no thing, so that's, it's ahierarchical, cultural thing.
The boss has asked me to dosomething I can't say no.
And does that also apply to evenquestioning the boss to clarify?
If I haven't understood the fullinstruction, would I be prepared
(09:54):
to ask for clarification, orwould I just go and do what I
thought the boss had said?.
Michelle (10:01):
You will go for what you thought the boss said,
because they are too afraid toask again.
And then the boss could be likethere's a bad attitude, say that
I already told you why you haveto ask me again.
And then the second would belike the boss was saying, okay,
so I hire you because like youare competent to do the job.
You don't need to ask me what todo.
You should already know how todo the job.
Greg (10:23):
And then you talked about.
I think what you didn't use thewords but there's a concept, I
think of saving face and I thinkwhat you're suggesting is that
I, as the migrant worker ifthere's an incident, I will take
the blame because I need to savethe face of the manager and not
put the blame on the manager.
(10:43):
Is that right?
Michelle (10:44):
Yes.
Yeah, correct.
Greg (10:47):
And the work visa thing, of course, we hear that quite a
bit, don't we?
We hear the whole things won'tget reported because I'm
concerned I'll get in trouble, Imight lose my job, and therefore
if I lose my job, I lose myvisa.
And then I get sent home.
And is that a real are youaware, I know we hear about that
a little bit maybe not from ahealth and safety perspective,
(11:07):
although.
It's from a working conditionsperspective.
Does that happen a lot?
Have you come across that a lotin New Zealand?
Michelle (11:14):
It does.
And I wouldn't say like a lot,but like it's often like
happening.
So what has happened isespecially like actually there
are quite a lot Notifiableevents happened, which haven't
notified WorkSafe.
And the reason is first is thebusiness owner probably doesn't
know the requirement.
They have to notify WorkSafe asfor the Notifiable events and
(11:37):
second, like they probably knowthat they want to keep quiet, so
they don't want to get into aninvestigation or get into
trouble or damage theirreputation for the company.
So they chose to stay quiet andthen they tell the workers.
Says, okay, so I'm going to payyou like all the conversations
or like a hospital fees and thento make sure like you recovered
(11:59):
and stuff.
But however there are also someemployers which is they don't
pay it at all.
And that's why there are somenews saying about like migrants
workers who got really injuredand some even like disabled and
they won't be able to get anycompensation from the employer
because the employer has beenthreatened.
Okay, so if you're going to tellanyone that I'm not going to
(12:22):
support your visa anymore.
So that's why I like some of theworkers.
They suffered enough and theychose.
Okay, I'm going to report tomedia because I am disabled I
can't do any work to support myfamily.
So I have to have someconversation and this is how the
media come in and then theyreport this whole event.
(12:43):
But it seems like you can tellfrom the story that the migrants
workers, they don't know theirrights and they don't know where
to seeking help.
And if they do know that, andthen they won't be end up into
this situation.
Greg (12:57):
So that's interesting.
And you've mentioned that a fewtimes about not knowing their
rights.
And I certainly haven't done anyresearch into this, but if I'm a
migrant coming into New Zealand,do I get told anything about my
rights from a health and safetyperspective?
The fact that I can say no, Iknow that's a challenge because
it goes against my culturalvalue, that I'm not going to go
(13:22):
against the boss, there is thatlegal right that we can say no
to dangerous work.
Is there anywhere as a migrantthat I get told that?
Michelle (13:31):
I believe when the company register as a credit
employer.
So when they hire a migrantsworkers, I think there's a
requirement from theimmigration, which is they have
to provide the introduction tothe employees, which is I think
it's like an online trainingsessions.
I'm not exactly sure thedetails.
Greg (13:50):
We were speaking a little while ago in, in preparing for
this discussion and there wasprobably three things that we
talked about in terms of whatWorkSafe or the government or
decision makers could do toenhance this asian migrants
understanding of health andsafety.
(14:12):
Some of it was aroundlegislation, some of it was
around education and some of itwas around language.
I think those were probablythree of the things that you
talked about that arechallenging, for migrants.
Do you want to go back overthose and just talk to me about,
interpretation or understandingof legislation, attitudes
towards Independent consultantscoming in and training versus
(14:36):
Information from the regulatorand anything around English
language translation, thosesorts of things.
Michelle (14:42):
Yeah, sure.
I think one of the suggestionsthat we will discuss was about
the WorkSafe need to create morecommunication channels.
Because we have to understandlots of the Asian business
owners and even the Asianworkers, they don't really speak
English well.
And then if you expect them totype English in the website and
(15:02):
to search WorkSafe website, andthen once you get into the
website, you have to search inEnglish what the information
you're looking for in thatwebsite.
It's pretty much, No one's goingto do that.
And then that's why it's like,if the work safe can work with
for example Chinese social mediain New Zealand, and then like
Filipino group.
(15:23):
So we got different channels,which is the Migrants here, they
communicate the information withtheir community group using that
social media.
So if the WorkSafe can createthose communication channels
with those social medias todifferent ethnic groups, that
would be really effective forthem to understand what the news
(15:46):
comes out, what are the updatesrelated to the legislation.
I think that's really helpful.
And in terms of the materials,it definitely would be useful if
WorkSafe have trainingmaterials, which is provided in
different languages.
It helps the community toactually spread the news to the
members.
Okay, so this is the flyers fromthe WorkSafe and this is the
(16:09):
main information that we need tonotice in terms of health and
safety.
And trainings wide as well.
I know there are some trainingsprovided like in some like a
main language with Chinese orFilipino different language, but
still it's only like a basicone, but for example, like a
confined space or working atheight, they are still like
provided in English.
(16:31):
And for that we have encounteredsome situation, which is the
business has been, a fewmigrants workers to come to work
in New Zealand for shortprojects, which involves working
at heights.
And then they have to enrolltheir workers to that course to
make sure they understand how wedo the work in New Zealand.
(16:54):
But the course was provided inEnglish and they ask the
training association say if youcan have a translator just
translates the content into thatinto Chinese and then provides
to our workers.
And they say, yes, we do.
But however we can't reallyqualify you with the
(17:15):
certification after youaccomplish the course because
it's translated in Chinese so wecan't guarantee like they truly
understand it and this is like aproblem.
There are quite some likecompany doing some tricky ways
and I know there's like a roofcompany and what they did is
like they have four or fiveworkers which is they have only
(17:37):
one worker who actually speakfluent English so they send that
worker and then to do the coursefirst and once he got that
qualifications And he totallyunderstand what had been told in
the class and then the next timethe boss booked the same person
with another two staff togetherto the same course, which is
(17:58):
another two people copy the workwith that person, which has got
the same qualification, but theydon't really understand what
they being taught in the class.
I think there's a definite,there's necessarily like to
provide the training todifferent language.
Greg (18:14):
That's interesting because then if some of those workers
maybe go and work for a moreEnglish based, English speaking
based organization, no doubtthey'll get a bit of paper along
the way somewhere that says,please sign that you have read
and understood.
This policy, or this training,or this instruction, and if you
then come back to the wholecultural norm of bowing down to
(18:37):
the boss, accepting what theboss has said, is it likely that
they'll just sign it, regardlessof understanding?
I'll sign the bit of paper.
Yeah, all good.
Yeah.
One of the things that we talkedabout and correct me if I'm
wrong, but you indicated when wespoke that.
People of Asian descent wouldfrom a understanding of
(18:57):
legislation perspective wouldprefer to be told exactly what
they're supposed to do to complywith the law whereas we know in
New Zealand, our law is largelynon prescriptive, it doesn't
really tell you what to do, itjust says don't hurt anybody and
doesn't give you a lot ofguidance about what that
(19:18):
specifically means so Asiancultures would prefer to be I
guess having that real clarityof expectations in the
legislation.
Michelle (19:27):
Yes, totally.
I have been talking with quite alot of Chinese owners and one of
the concerns they came up isthey said they don't know
exactly the requirements, forexample, if they are working at
height or if they're working inthe construction field, what's
exactly the requirement thegovernment require us to do.
They don't know exactly, becausein the health and safety
(19:48):
legislation, we said, okay, sothe, as a PCBU, you need to
manage the risk and then to bereasonable practical.
But for them, it doesn't meananything to them.
They want to be like a really indetail.
Okay.
So in terms of the site what doI need to do to reach to which
point and then like differentelements and to what are the
(20:09):
requirements for them?
It's easier to understandbecause it's still as the
culture difference, like inAsia, when we told the kids in
school, so we gave them the bookand then tell them what to do.
It's not like here in school.
Okay, so here's the questionsand let the children to come up
with answers.
(20:30):
But in, in China and in all theAsian countries is different, so
the teacher will give you theanswers, and then you just need
to think up, you just need tofollow the step by step, and
then get to there.
So it's like copy paste.
So that's why I like if theycome here and they say okay so
you need to manage your risk.
But they need to be told how todo it, and then by steps, what
(20:51):
are the requirements.
Yeah,
Greg (20:54):
Interesting so the other point that we talked about was
you indicated to me that Asianbusiness owners, if there was a
regime of The regulatorproviding education, training
courses or workshops or whateverit might be, that Asian business
(21:15):
owners would more likely go to agovernment sponsored event than
hiring a consultant who theyprobably don't know.
They've probably got littletrust in that consultant because
they don't know them.
And so that's the case is thatif there was lots of government
provided education that moreAsian businesses would seek out
(21:36):
that, that education.
Michelle (21:37):
Yes, definitely.
So there's two points.
One is when the government comeout with the course and it's
like to tell the Asian businessowners, okay, so this is a
compulsory things I need to do.
And this is important.
But however, if it's come outfrom an external consultant, the
immediate thoughts they willhave, okay, so is this person
trying to earn more money frommy business?
(22:00):
This is their honest thoughtabout that.
But however, if it comes outfrom the government, they will
definitely, okay, so this isimportant, and I need to attend
to that.
Greg (22:10):
So where does your organization fit into all of
this?
What sort of services do youprovide to the Asian business
community?
Michelle (22:17):
So for our organization, it's more to
provide support to the Asianbusiness.
And because the safety cultureis really low so we start with
to educate them, what are thehealth and safety rights and
liabilities?
It doesn't matter if it's likeBCPU or workers or officers and
we provide those legislationtraining sessions to them.
And then once they understandwhat they need to do in terms of
(22:40):
the health and safety fromlegislation point of view, and
we will teach them like how tomanage the health and safety
from the operation point ofview.
Because you can't expecteveryone going to be like a
health and safety practitionerand really professional in the
health and safety.
And lots of the Asian business,they are really like small to
medium business, so limited tothe budget.
(23:01):
And they can't really afford tohire a full time health and
safety practitioner or have anexternal consultant to help them
all the time.
So what we said, what we comeout is we're going to teach them
the health and safety system andthen tell them what are the
system are and what are theelements.
Like for example within thesystem we got like a risk
(23:22):
management incidentinvestigation and different
subtle elements.
But for each element, we'regoing to actually give the
trainings to them on how youidentify risk and then how you
how do you control risk and howyou're going to carry out the
investigation.
It's like really detailed, butpractical for each company to
(23:44):
actually manage their health andsafety from data point of view.
Yeah.
Greg (23:48):
Nice.
So we're just about at time.
What I would love to get somefeedback from you on, is if I'm
a health and safety person andmaybe I have the opportunity to
provide some guidance to anAsian based business.
What are some things that Ishould go into that job pre
(24:09):
prepared with to be able tobetter assist that organization
with their health and safety?
And How should I behave?
Are there any cultural thingsthat I should do to create more
trust or connection on my firstmeeting with them?
Just maybe two or three thingsthat, that maybe the listeners
(24:30):
might be interested in hearingabout.
Michelle (24:32):
Yes I think first is before going to any I say group
workers.
First, understand their culture.
And then if you do understandtheir culture and where they
come from, and then you willthink using their way.
Because you have to act as afriend.
And then most times, like, whenthe health and safety people
showing on our site, andimmediately the Asian migrants
(24:56):
workers will feel like, oh mygod, this is like a boss.
This is going to be doingsomething on my work.
I have to behave really well andthen, so like first understand
like where they come out fromthat self and then second is
like act as their friends andthen just say okay so I'm here
to learn the things from youguys so you know like we learn
from the both ways it's not likeI'm here to actually monitoring
(25:18):
and then to evaluate how you'redoing the work and then second
if it's going to be like a longterm Working with the migrant
workers.
I think it's better to haveculture representative.
You will find out, like, wheneven migrants workers working
for our local business, forexample Chinese group, or
Filipino group, when they'reworking for the local business,
(25:40):
you will find out during thebreaks, they always hang out
together, but not hang out withour team and stuff.
And the reason is like theyfeeling like more trust to be
with the people with the samegroup and also they have like
more trust to actually sharesome, like a personal stuff with
the people from the samecountry.
(26:01):
So have a culture advisor orculture representative for that
group would be reallybeneficial.
If the company wants to get anyinformation from that asset
group or communicate thatinformation, then they can just
like talk to the reps and thereps can communicate the
information with them reallywell in their own language.
(26:24):
And also in terms like how wecan support them like Let's say
if they have some family issuesand it could be affect to their
work, and then they can talkthat to the reps and the reps
can give that information to thecompany so the company know how
to support them.
But however, if you expect thatstaff going to talk the personal
stuff to the boss directly isvery hard to occur.
(26:47):
Yeah.
Greg (26:51):
That's really useful.
It is been a really interestingconversation.
And I guess one of the thingsthat we'll do I know last year
you wrote an article forSafeguard so we can put a link
up to that article.
And it was about many of thethings that you've talked about
today.
You've talked about a lot ofdata in your article about the
(27:11):
percentage of Asian businessesthat don't really understand
about health and safety, and thenumber of people that don't
understand their rights andresponsibilities and liabilities
and those sorts of things.
You've talked a little bit aboutAsian culture and the impact of
those relationships between theand their boss.
(27:31):
There's a really good article inthe January February Safeguard
from 2023, so we'll put a linkup about that, and of course
there is your Asian BusinessHealth, Safety and Environmental
Network LinkedIn page.
Is that the best place thatpeople can find you on that
LinkedIn page?
If they are an Asian business orare helping an Asian business,
is that the best location tofind you?
Michelle (27:52):
They can either find us on the LinkedIn page or go to
our website.
We have a contact form, which isthey can fill it in.
Greg (27:58):
Excellent okay we can put a link to the website, the
LinkedIn page, your article andsafeguard Loved talking to you
today, Michelle and what a greatjourney to, come to a new
country and create that pathway,that passion for yourself,
coming from an accountingbackground and all of a sudden
you're a health and safetyprofessional both with IOSH and
(28:21):
NZ ISM and well done on all ofthat and yeah, look forward to
talking to you again soon.
Michelle (28:26):
Thank you, Greg see you later.
Greg (28:30):
Some really interesting insights into Asian culture and
that discussion.
I think we heard a truereflection of how culture
impacts on individuals and howthat shows up in a workplace,
and in terms of this podcast,how culture has reflected on how
organizations and individualsunderstand health and safety.
(28:51):
Michelle really explored for ussome of those Asian cultural
values, like power distance andthe defference to hierarchy.
She described a bit of a mixedapproach when it came to
context.
On one hand business ownerspreferring a low context, direct
approach, needing explicitguidance from a legislative
perspective.
(29:12):
And on the other hand,individuals preferences for high
context indirect communicationand saving face.
Of course she discussedscenarios where collectivism
came to the fore as a value withworkers preferring to take the
breaks together as a group.
I'd like to reiterate that forany practitioner who might be
working with Asian workers orAsian owned businesses.
(29:33):
To connect with Michelle and herAsian business, health, safety,
and environmental network.
I'm sure she can share plentymore insights into how you might
better engage with this culture.
Which will in turn enhance yourown cultural intelligence.
We've come to the end of thisepisode.
Thanks so much for listening.
(29:54):
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
(30:17):
comment if you see somethingthat resonates, if we aren't
connected send me an invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast I'd reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is JaneFowles, she's a health and
(30:40):
safety professional in the dairyindustry.
Our Asian theme continues alittle in this episode as Jane
talks about her studies intoworker engagement and the
Filipino workforce in the midCanterbury dairy sector.
Thanks again for tuning into TheCulturally Intelligent Safety
Professional.
Ka kitei.
Welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional, a podcastaimed it providing a platform,
whereby safety professionals candevelop a pathway to enhance
their cultural intelligencecapability, which will in turn,
help them function moreeffectively when working in a
multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:43):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you,
the listener enhance yourcultural intelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in a diverse environmentand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:06):
might be it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
So today I'm talking to MichelleWu from Advanced Safety.
Michelle is a chartered memberof IOSH, a certified
professional with NZISM and thefounder of the Asian Business
(01:31):
Health, Safety and EnvironmentalNetwork, which is a non profit
organisation that aims to breakdown cultural barriers to
promote strong health and safetyculture among Asian businesses,
Ni Hao Ma, Michelle great tohave you on the show today.
Michelle (01:47):
Thank you so much for the warm introduction Greg it's
such a pleasure to be here I'mtruly excited to have the
opportunity to join you on thispodcast and also to discuss
safety culture with you.
Greg (02:00):
I think just before we do start with our conversation it's
timely given the events of thelast week or so that I would
like to just acknowledge theevents that happened in Taiwan
with the earthquake given thatwe're going to be talking about
Asian culture and health andsafety in our chat, so hope that
(02:20):
that is resolved as best as itcan be over the next few weeks.
Michelle, I'm really keen tohear more about your Asian
Business Health and SafetyNetwork, but maybe first, if you
can give the audience a bit ofan introduction to yourself and
how you ended up in health andsafety doing the work that you
do.
Michelle (02:38):
Yeah, sure.
So actually like the transitioninto the health and safety
fields was like a life turningpoint for me and originally I
was worked as an accountant, butonce switched my job to join the
Scaffolding company.
So the new job required me toassist the health and safety
manager with some health andsafety paperwork.
(02:59):
And then my boss enrolled meinto a level three workplace
health and safety managementcourse.
And the more I dived into healthand safety and the more I think
it's resonated with me.
And I came to New Zealand in2011.
And since then, I've heard quitea lot of stories about migrants
(03:19):
suffering from workplaceinjuries and also the challenge
they are facing in assertingtheir rights.
And to see their struggling,it's really ignited my desire to
support their safety and wellbeing.
And I think this is drivingforce behind my commitment to
this field and also mydedication to supporting the
(03:40):
migrants.
And to enhance my knowledge andalso the proficiencies in the
health and safety management, Ipursued some further
qualifications.
So I completed the NEBOSHInternational Diploma and also
gain some valuable experienceover time, which has led me to
become a Chartered Practitioner.
Greg (04:03):
That's really cool and good to hear your commitment and
I was going to ask you aboutyour why, why do you do this?
And so you've delved into that alittle bit about the impact of
health and safety or poor healthand safety outcomes on migrant
workforces.
In fact, I was having aconversation loosely around that
(04:23):
subject with somebody else thisweek.
And so is the, migrant healthand safety performance quite
significant here in New Zealandfrom what you've learned?
Michelle (04:33):
Yes, and I don't think it's not only like the migrants
and also for example thosemigrants who have started their
construction business.
And as a business owners theyare'nt very aware how to manage
health and safety at workplaceto protect their workers safety.
And that's another concern forme as well.
(04:54):
And most of the time when ourinspectors go on site, so you
will find like probably 80percent of the time if you go to
a Asian construction site, thehealth and safety measures are
not really adequately managed,which is, it also shows the
safety culture among the Asianbusiness is often poor compared
(05:14):
to our local business.
And there comes to my anotherreason, which is to improve the
safety culture and then tochange the reputation of the
Asian business around the safetyculture is another significant
motivation for the work I do.
Greg (05:29):
I was reading something recently and it was it was a
quote from a chap that washeading the investigation into
the Fukushima nuclear powerplant disaster in Japan more
than 10 years ago now.
And we know that this incidentwas largely caused.
By an earthquake and asubsequent tsunami, but that's
(05:53):
not what the investigationpinned the root cause on, and I
want to read you the passage orthe quote from this person who
was who headed up theinvestigation.
He said.
"What must be admitted, verypainfully, is that this was a
disaster made in Japan.
Its fundamental causes are to befound in the ingrained
(06:13):
conventions of Japanese culture,our reflexive obedience, our
reluctance to questionauthority, our devotion to
sticking with the program, ourgroupism, and our insularity.
Had other Japanese been in theshoes of those who bear the
responsibility for thisaccident, the result may well
(06:34):
have been the same." Now we'lltake that quote for what it is
and put it aside because I wantto talk to you now about Your
network group and that the AsianBusiness Health and Safety
Network and I know you've got apage on LinkedIn and you talk
there about maybe some of thestuff you've already mentioned
the high risks and the lack ofhealth and safety culture among
(06:57):
Asian businesses in New Zealandand you talk about vulnerable
communities such as Asianworkers.
And you mentioned them beingunaware of their health and
safety rights and liabilities.
Probably not a lot there that wedidn't really already know.
But then you say that yourorganization recognizes that
safety concerns are overlooked,or are often overlooked in Asian
(07:19):
work cultures due to the stronginternal hierarchies that
discourage workers from speakingup.
And when you read that commentfrom your LinkedIn page and put
it next to the quote from theFukushima investigation, it
starts to tell a little bit of astory.
And I guess I'm keen to get yourtake on that, and do we have an
(07:40):
understanding in New Zealandabout the real impact Asian
culture might have on theirhealth and safety and the health
and safety of their workers herein New Zealand.
Michelle (07:49):
Definitely.
I think there will be links.
So let's say like for the Asianmind side is like very
hierarchy.
So in the company if I was as aworker, I have to listen to what
my boss told me.
So whatever the task my bosslets me to do, and then give me
the dead line, I have to finishbefore that, and I can't say no.
(08:10):
And then you will find a bitlike a funnest like if something
wrong when the boss told youlike give the wrong instructions
and then turns out, okay, so theevent has been turned really
bad.
But at the end, You were the onesaid, okay, it's my fault.
It's not my boss fault.
So you are the one who have tolike, take all and then to said,
(08:32):
okay, this is my fault, which isit's something like, it's not
like our local business to andanother thing is like most the
migrants here, like they havethe work visa, which is purely
depends on the employer, whichis the accredited employer work
visa.
Another concern is when theworkers appeared really depends
(08:53):
on the employer to provide thework visa, it's really strict
the workers to actually speakthe truth and the fact about how
they think about the workplace.
And if they do, then theemployer probably going to fire
them.
And because the workers doesn'tknow what's the rights.
for them.
So they rather okay, so I don'twant to bring any troubles to
(09:16):
myself.
I just want to like work as whatI have told.
And that's all.
And this is like how you becomelike the culture is like they
bring their own culture to NewZealand, but not really adapt to
our New Zealand employment law.
Greg (09:33):
So you talked about a couple of things there the can't
say no thing, so that's, it's ahierarchical, cultural thing.
The boss has asked me to dosomething I can't say no.
And does that also apply to evenquestioning the boss to clarify?
If I haven't understood the fullinstruction, would I be prepared
(09:54):
to ask for clarification, orwould I just go and do what I
thought the boss had said?.
Michelle (10:01):
You will go for what you thought the boss said,
because they are too afraid toask again.
And then the boss could be likethere's a bad attitude, say that
I already told you why you haveto ask me again.
And then the second would belike the boss was saying, okay,
so I hire you because like youare competent to do the job.
You don't need to ask me what todo.
You should already know how todo the job.
Greg (10:23):
And then you talked about.
I think what you didn't use thewords but there's a concept, I
think of saving face and I thinkwhat you're suggesting is that
I, as the migrant worker ifthere's an incident, I will take
the blame because I need to savethe face of the manager and not
put the blame on the manager.
(10:43):
Is that right?
Michelle (10:44):
Yes.
Yeah, correct.
Greg (10:47):
And the work visa thing, of course, we hear that quite a
bit, don't we?
We hear the whole things won'tget reported because I'm
concerned I'll get in trouble, Imight lose my job, and therefore
if I lose my job, I lose myvisa.
And then I get sent home.
And is that a real are youaware, I know we hear about that
a little bit maybe not from ahealth and safety perspective,
(11:07):
although.
It's from a working conditionsperspective.
Does that happen a lot?
Have you come across that a lotin New Zealand?
Michelle (11:14):
It does.
And I wouldn't say like a lot,but like it's often like
happening.
So what has happened isespecially like actually there
are quite a lot Notifiableevents happened, which haven't
notified WorkSafe.
And the reason is first is thebusiness owner probably doesn't
know the requirement.
They have to notify WorkSafe asfor the Notifiable events and
(11:37):
second, like they probably knowthat they want to keep quiet, so
they don't want to get into aninvestigation or get into
trouble or damage theirreputation for the company.
So they chose to stay quiet andthen they tell the workers.
Says, okay, so I'm going to payyou like all the conversations
or like a hospital fees and thento make sure like you recovered
(11:59):
and stuff.
But however there are also someemployers which is they don't
pay it at all.
And that's why there are somenews saying about like migrants
workers who got really injuredand some even like disabled and
they won't be able to get anycompensation from the employer
because the employer has beenthreatened.
Okay, so if you're going to tellanyone that I'm not going to
(12:22):
support your visa anymore.
So that's why I like some of theworkers.
They suffered enough and theychose.
Okay, I'm going to report tomedia because I am disabled I
can't do any work to support myfamily.
So I have to have someconversation and this is how the
media come in and then theyreport this whole event.
(12:43):
But it seems like you can tellfrom the story that the migrants
workers, they don't know theirrights and they don't know where
to seeking help.
And if they do know that, andthen they won't be end up into
this situation.
Greg (12:57):
So that's interesting.
And you've mentioned that a fewtimes about not knowing their
rights.
And I certainly haven't done anyresearch into this, but if I'm a
migrant coming into New Zealand,do I get told anything about my
rights from a health and safetyperspective?
The fact that I can say no, Iknow that's a challenge because
it goes against my culturalvalue, that I'm not going to go
(13:22):
against the boss, there is thatlegal right that we can say no
to dangerous work.
Is there anywhere as a migrantthat I get told that?
Michelle (13:31):
I believe when the company register as a credit
employer.
So when they hire a migrantsworkers, I think there's a
requirement from theimmigration, which is they have
to provide the introduction tothe employees, which is I think
it's like an online trainingsessions.
I'm not exactly sure thedetails.
Greg (13:50):
We were speaking a little while ago in, in preparing for
this discussion and there wasprobably three things that we
talked about in terms of whatWorkSafe or the government or
decision makers could do toenhance this asian migrants
understanding of health andsafety.
(14:12):
Some of it was aroundlegislation, some of it was
around education and some of itwas around language.
I think those were probablythree of the things that you
talked about that arechallenging, for migrants.
Do you want to go back overthose and just talk to me about,
interpretation or understandingof legislation, attitudes
towards Independent consultantscoming in and training versus
(14:36):
Information from the regulatorand anything around English
language translation, thosesorts of things.
Michelle (14:42):
Yeah, sure.
I think one of the suggestionsthat we will discuss was about
the WorkSafe need to create morecommunication channels.
Because we have to understandlots of the Asian business
owners and even the Asianworkers, they don't really speak
English well.
And then if you expect them totype English in the website and
(15:02):
to search WorkSafe website, andthen once you get into the
website, you have to search inEnglish what the information
you're looking for in thatwebsite.
It's pretty much, No one's goingto do that.
And then that's why it's like,if the work safe can work with
for example Chinese social mediain New Zealand, and then like
Filipino group.
(15:23):
So we got different channels,which is the Migrants here, they
communicate the information withtheir community group using that
social media.
So if the WorkSafe can createthose communication channels
with those social medias todifferent ethnic groups, that
would be really effective forthem to understand what the news
(15:46):
comes out, what are the updatesrelated to the legislation.
I think that's really helpful.
And in terms of the materials,it definitely would be useful if
WorkSafe have trainingmaterials, which is provided in
different languages.
It helps the community toactually spread the news to the
members.
Okay, so this is the flyers fromthe WorkSafe and this is the
(16:09):
main information that we need tonotice in terms of health and
safety.
And trainings wide as well.
I know there are some trainingsprovided like in some like a
main language with Chinese orFilipino different language, but
still it's only like a basicone, but for example, like a
confined space or working atheight, they are still like
provided in English.
(16:31):
And for that we have encounteredsome situation, which is the
business has been, a fewmigrants workers to come to work
in New Zealand for shortprojects, which involves working
at heights.
And then they have to enrolltheir workers to that course to
make sure they understand how wedo the work in New Zealand.
(16:54):
But the course was provided inEnglish and they ask the
training association say if youcan have a translator just
translates the content into thatinto Chinese and then provides
to our workers.
And they say, yes, we do.
But however we can't reallyqualify you with the
(17:15):
certification after youaccomplish the course because
it's translated in Chinese so wecan't guarantee like they truly
understand it and this is like aproblem.
There are quite some likecompany doing some tricky ways
and I know there's like a roofcompany and what they did is
like they have four or fiveworkers which is they have only
(17:37):
one worker who actually speakfluent English so they send that
worker and then to do the coursefirst and once he got that
qualifications And he totallyunderstand what had been told in
the class and then the next timethe boss booked the same person
with another two staff togetherto the same course, which is
(17:58):
another two people copy the workwith that person, which has got
the same qualification, but theydon't really understand what
they being taught in the class.
I think there's a definite,there's necessarily like to
provide the training todifferent language.
Greg (18:14):
That's interesting because then if some of those workers
maybe go and work for a moreEnglish based, English speaking
based organization, no doubtthey'll get a bit of paper along
the way somewhere that says,please sign that you have read
and understood.
This policy, or this training,or this instruction, and if you
then come back to the wholecultural norm of bowing down to
(18:37):
the boss, accepting what theboss has said, is it likely that
they'll just sign it, regardlessof understanding?
I'll sign the bit of paper.
Yeah, all good.
Yeah.
One of the things that we talkedabout and correct me if I'm
wrong, but you indicated when wespoke that.
People of Asian descent wouldfrom a understanding of
(18:57):
legislation perspective wouldprefer to be told exactly what
they're supposed to do to complywith the law whereas we know in
New Zealand, our law is largelynon prescriptive, it doesn't
really tell you what to do, itjust says don't hurt anybody and
doesn't give you a lot ofguidance about what that
(19:18):
specifically means so Asiancultures would prefer to be I
guess having that real clarityof expectations in the
legislation.
Michelle (19:27):
Yes, totally.
I have been talking with quite alot of Chinese owners and one of
the concerns they came up isthey said they don't know
exactly the requirements, forexample, if they are working at
height or if they're working inthe construction field, what's
exactly the requirement thegovernment require us to do.
They don't know exactly, becausein the health and safety
(19:48):
legislation, we said, okay, sothe, as a PCBU, you need to
manage the risk and then to bereasonable practical.
But for them, it doesn't meananything to them.
They want to be like a really indetail.
Okay.
So in terms of the site what doI need to do to reach to which
point and then like differentelements and to what are the
(20:09):
requirements for them?
It's easier to understandbecause it's still as the
culture difference, like inAsia, when we told the kids in
school, so we gave them the bookand then tell them what to do.
It's not like here in school.
Okay, so here's the questionsand let the children to come up
with answers.
(20:30):
But in, in China and in all theAsian countries is different, so
the teacher will give you theanswers, and then you just need
to think up, you just need tofollow the step by step, and
then get to there.
So it's like copy paste.
So that's why I like if theycome here and they say okay so
you need to manage your risk.
But they need to be told how todo it, and then by steps, what
(20:51):
are the requirements.
Yeah,
Greg (20:54):
Interesting so the other point that we talked about was
you indicated to me that Asianbusiness owners, if there was a
regime of The regulatorproviding education, training
courses or workshops or whateverit might be, that Asian business
(21:15):
owners would more likely go to agovernment sponsored event than
hiring a consultant who theyprobably don't know.
They've probably got littletrust in that consultant because
they don't know them.
And so that's the case is thatif there was lots of government
provided education that moreAsian businesses would seek out
(21:36):
that, that education.
Michelle (21:37):
Yes, definitely.
So there's two points.
One is when the government comeout with the course and it's
like to tell the Asian businessowners, okay, so this is a
compulsory things I need to do.
And this is important.
But however, if it's come outfrom an external consultant, the
immediate thoughts they willhave, okay, so is this person
trying to earn more money frommy business?
(22:00):
This is their honest thoughtabout that.
But however, if it comes outfrom the government, they will
definitely, okay, so this isimportant, and I need to attend
to that.
Greg (22:10):
So where does your organization fit into all of
this?
What sort of services do youprovide to the Asian business
community?
Michelle (22:17):
So for our organization, it's more to
provide support to the Asianbusiness.
And because the safety cultureis really low so we start with
to educate them, what are thehealth and safety rights and
liabilities?
It doesn't matter if it's likeBCPU or workers or officers and
we provide those legislationtraining sessions to them.
And then once they understandwhat they need to do in terms of
(22:40):
the health and safety fromlegislation point of view, and
we will teach them like how tomanage the health and safety
from the operation point ofview.
Because you can't expecteveryone going to be like a
health and safety practitionerand really professional in the
health and safety.
And lots of the Asian business,they are really like small to
medium business, so limited tothe budget.
(23:01):
And they can't really afford tohire a full time health and
safety practitioner or have anexternal consultant to help them
all the time.
So what we said, what we comeout is we're going to teach them
the health and safety system andthen tell them what are the
system are and what are theelements.
Like for example within thesystem we got like a risk
(23:22):
management incidentinvestigation and different
subtle elements.
But for each element, we'regoing to actually give the
trainings to them on how youidentify risk and then how you
how do you control risk and howyou're going to carry out the
investigation.
It's like really detailed, butpractical for each company to
(23:44):
actually manage their health andsafety from data point of view.
Yeah.
Greg (23:48):
Nice.
So we're just about at time.
What I would love to get somefeedback from you on, is if I'm
a health and safety person andmaybe I have the opportunity to
provide some guidance to anAsian based business.
What are some things that Ishould go into that job pre
(24:09):
prepared with to be able tobetter assist that organization
with their health and safety?
And How should I behave?
Are there any cultural thingsthat I should do to create more
trust or connection on my firstmeeting with them?
Just maybe two or three thingsthat, that maybe the listeners
(24:30):
might be interested in hearingabout.
Michelle (24:32):
Yes I think first is before going to any I say group
workers.
First, understand their culture.
And then if you do understandtheir culture and where they
come from, and then you willthink using their way.
Because you have to act as afriend.
And then most times, like, whenthe health and safety people
showing on our site, andimmediately the Asian migrants
(24:56):
workers will feel like, oh mygod, this is like a boss.
This is going to be doingsomething on my work.
I have to behave really well andthen, so like first understand
like where they come out fromthat self and then second is
like act as their friends andthen just say okay so I'm here
to learn the things from youguys so you know like we learn
from the both ways it's not likeI'm here to actually monitoring
(25:18):
and then to evaluate how you'redoing the work and then second
if it's going to be like a longterm Working with the migrant
workers.
I think it's better to haveculture representative.
You will find out, like, wheneven migrants workers working
for our local business, forexample Chinese group, or
Filipino group, when they'reworking for the local business,
(25:40):
you will find out during thebreaks, they always hang out
together, but not hang out withour team and stuff.
And the reason is like theyfeeling like more trust to be
with the people with the samegroup and also they have like
more trust to actually sharesome, like a personal stuff with
the people from the samecountry.
(26:01):
So have a culture advisor orculture representative for that
group would be reallybeneficial.
If the company wants to get anyinformation from that asset
group or communicate thatinformation, then they can just
like talk to the reps and thereps can communicate the
information with them reallywell in their own language.
(26:24):
And also in terms like how wecan support them like Let's say
if they have some family issuesand it could be affect to their
work, and then they can talkthat to the reps and the reps
can give that information to thecompany so the company know how
to support them.
But however, if you expect thatstaff going to talk the personal
stuff to the boss directly isvery hard to occur.
(26:47):
Yeah.
Greg (26:51):
That's really useful.
It is been a really interestingconversation.
And I guess one of the thingsthat we'll do I know last year
you wrote an article forSafeguard so we can put a link
up to that article.
And it was about many of thethings that you've talked about
today.
You've talked about a lot ofdata in your article about the
(27:11):
percentage of Asian businessesthat don't really understand
about health and safety, and thenumber of people that don't
understand their rights andresponsibilities and liabilities
and those sorts of things.
You've talked a little bit aboutAsian culture and the impact of
those relationships between theand their boss.
(27:31):
There's a really good article inthe January February Safeguard
from 2023, so we'll put a linkup about that, and of course
there is your Asian BusinessHealth, Safety and Environmental
Network LinkedIn page.
Is that the best place thatpeople can find you on that
LinkedIn page?
If they are an Asian business orare helping an Asian business,
is that the best location tofind you?
Michelle (27:52):
They can either find us on the LinkedIn page or go to
our website.
We have a contact form, which isthey can fill it in.
Greg (27:58):
Excellent okay we can put a link to the website, the
LinkedIn page, your article andsafeguard Loved talking to you
today, Michelle and what a greatjourney to, come to a new
country and create that pathway,that passion for yourself,
coming from an accountingbackground and all of a sudden
you're a health and safetyprofessional both with IOSH and
(28:21):
NZ ISM and well done on all ofthat and yeah, look forward to
talking to you again soon.
Michelle (28:26):
Thank you, Greg see you later.
Greg (28:30):
Some really interesting insights into Asian culture and
that discussion.
I think we heard a truereflection of how culture
impacts on individuals and howthat shows up in a workplace,
and in terms of this podcast,how culture has reflected on how
organizations and individualsunderstand health and safety.
(28:51):
Michelle really explored for ussome of those Asian cultural
values, like power distance andthe defference to hierarchy.
She described a bit of a mixedapproach when it came to
context.
On one hand business ownerspreferring a low context, direct
approach, needing explicitguidance from a legislative
perspective.
(29:12):
And on the other hand,individuals preferences for high
context indirect communicationand saving face.
Of course she discussedscenarios where collectivism
came to the fore as a value withworkers preferring to take the
breaks together as a group.
I'd like to reiterate that forany practitioner who might be
working with Asian workers orAsian owned businesses.
(29:33):
To connect with Michelle and herAsian business, health, safety,
and environmental network.
I'm sure she can share plentymore insights into how you might
better engage with this culture.
Which will in turn enhance yourown cultural intelligence.
We've come to the end of thisepisode.
Thanks so much for listening.
(29:54):
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
(30:17):
comment if you see somethingthat resonates, if we aren't
connected send me an invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast I'd reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is JaneFowles, she's a health and
(30:40):
safety professional in the dairyindustry.
Our Asian theme continues alittle in this episode as Jane
talks about her studies intoworker engagement and the
Filipino workforce in the midCanterbury dairy sector.
Thanks again for tuning into TheCulturally Intelligent Safety
Professional.
Ka kitei.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!