May 4, 2024 • 39 mins
This week we spend some time talking with Janes Fowles who works in the Dairy Sector in Mid Canterbury.
As a result of her research as part of the Kellogg's Leadership Programme Jane has developed a greater understanding of what it means to be culturally intelligent. It was great to hear Jane talk about what she learnt about cultural intelligence during her studies. Her willingness to listen to some of the stories and perspectives from the Filipino workers involved in the company she works for has led to the creation of a trusting relationship where migrant perspectives were able to be shared.
Many of the comments she made really showed a depth of understanding not only of particular cultural values held by various cultures, but also, in this case, how those values show up in the Filipino culture and how someone not from that culture might learn to just be curious about those values and what response might be appropriate.
Jane covered off on cultural values such as collectivism and power distance and described really well how those values actually show up for people in a workplace setting, how many workers in your organisations are there who might not be able to refuse dangerous work because of their preference for high power distance.
So its time to sit back and take in another dose of the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-fowles-b954491b/
https://ruralleaders.co.nz/know-better-do-better/
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Episode Transcript
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Greg (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional, a podcastaimed it providing a platform,
whereby safety professionals candevelop a pathway to enhance
their cultural intelligencecapability, which will in turn,
help them function moreeffectively when working in a
multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:43):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you,
the listener enhance yourcultural intelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in a diverse environmentand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:06):
might be it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
So today I'm talking with JaneFowles.
Jane is based in Ashburton, justsouth of Christchurch, and works
in the dairy industry.
(01:27):
In 2022, Jane was accepted intothe Kellogg's Rural Leadership
Program and her area of studyfor that program, was looking at
Filipino worker engagement inhealth and safety, in that dairy
industry, in the mid Canterburyarea.
Jane's a pretty passionateadvocate of the health and
safety profession.
(01:48):
And is also accomplished in theHR space kia ora Jane, great to
have you on the podcast.
Jane (01:53):
Kia Ora, thanks Greg, great to be here.
Greg (01:56):
So let's get straight into it.
I know you've got lots to talkabout today.
And we have known each other fora little while now.
And so I know some of yourhistory, but for the audience,
do you want to give us a bit ofan introduction into Jane and
your story?
Jane (02:11):
Yeah, sure.
I just feel like my story is notas exciting as other people's
stories, but it's still a storynone the less..
Yep, currently call Pakatiri orAshburton home.
We've been here for 10 yearsnow.
We came from Blenheim beforethen but I grew up in
Wellington.
We actually came here, I camehere from England when I was
quite young.
Ended up in Ashburton I movedfor love, apparently.
(02:34):
So my husband's made me movelocation twice in my life.
Both times for him to get a joband I followed.
There you go.
You'll take from that if youwill.
Excellent.
Yeah, so before I came toAshburton hadn't really sat in
the rural sector very much, butcame here obviously pretty big
sector.
I actually set up a businessabout nine months after we moved
(02:54):
here doing HR and health andsafety consultancy.
Did that for five years, grewthat up to be a pretty we had a
great bunch of people and agreat bunch of clients spanning
the whole agri sector.
And a bit of construction andmanufacturing as well.
Then COVID hit, my kids hadgrown up a bit and I decided to
go and get a real job.
So I moved to Dairy Holdingsthree and a half years ago now
(03:18):
as health and safety manager andnow people and culture.
So like after all things,health, safety, people,
wellbeing So really great role,really great space.
I've actually become quite afierce advocate for Safety in
the agri space.
And so involved with Safer Farmsas well.
Currently looking at quad bikesafety New Zealand through that
(03:39):
organization as well.
Greg (03:40):
That's a big area with lots of players with a whole
bunch of different views.
Jane (03:45):
Yep, it is and getting my geek hat on, we're doing some
really great work in theresearch space and the data
space and capturing someinformation.
I think everyone knows that dataare New Zealand from a health
and safety perspective.
Could be better.
And that kind of same thinglends itself to the quad bike
piece as well.
Yeah, Joanne Crawford actuallyat Vic Uni has been really
(04:07):
helpful with us in that space.
And we've got some great peopleas part of this group working on
that project.
So watch the space, Greg.
Greg (04:13):
So let's talk about the Kellogg's program that you were
involved with a couple of yearsago.
Firstly, what's it all about?
How did you get involved?
I'm guessing that it's not aboutbreakfast cereal?
Jane (04:26):
No, and they actually opened that on the first day.
They're like let's just get thisKellogg thing out of the room.
We're not anything to do withthe breakfast cereal.
The Kellogg Rural LeadershipProgram is run by rural leaders.
It's a six month program.
I guess for people who aredeveloping themselves to be a
leader in the sector, in thefood and fiber sector it's a bit
(04:46):
of a unique program.
So there's some kind ofresidency that you go to do some
leadership work, and then youget quite immersed in some of
the industry players.
So we went to Wellington, forexample, or everyone goes to
Wellington, for example, for aweek you get to have that
connection with government,which is actually really useful
when you don't live inWellington.
It's quite a differentenvironment.
(05:08):
And as part of that six monthprogram, you do a research
project, which is pretty hefty.
It's run very similar to I guessa master's thesis downgraded but
still that same researchprocess, so lit review, data
collection qualitative orquantitative, review,
(05:29):
conclusions, recommendations,the whole kit and caboodle so
it's a really great program andyeah, I really enjoyed it,
actually.
And you get to choose your ownresearch project.
So I was obviously quite keen topick something in that health
and safety space.
And yeah, it was a really greatexperience.
Greg (05:46):
And so your thesis was focused on I don't know if
that's the right word, if it'sofficially a thesis, Research
project, was focused on workerengagement within the Filipino
community around health andsafety in that mid Canterbury
area.
So I guess that's not unlike amaster's program.
(06:07):
You've drilled right down deepinto a subject rather than being
too broad.
You've tried to get right intoquite a specific area of
research.
And so the Filipino community isquite large in the mid
Canterbury slash DHL area, ifI'm correct, is that right?
Jane (06:27):
Yep, yep.
So second largest proportion ofour workforce is Filipino, which
is probably prettyrepresentative of, our area and
possibly the dairy sector ingeneral, just as in terms of
what we've seen over the lastsort of five to eight years, in
terms of those migrant workerscoming through.
And you're right, Greg.
(06:47):
The research was very muchfocused around quite a specific
question.
So my question was how can webetter engage our Filipino dairy
farm workers in mid Canterburywith Health and Safety on Farm?
And part of that research wasactually speaking to and
surveying and focus groups withsome of those workers in our
area.
Greg (07:09):
And what sort of roles have those workers got within
your farm environment?
Jane (07:13):
Oh, they were everything from farm assistant through to 2
IC, I think we had back then.
And I also spoke to some peoplethat employed them as well, so
farm managers, contract milkers,share milkers as well.
Greg (07:25):
And so tell us about the research.
What did you do you get out ofit?
What were some of the keyfindings?
Did you learn a lot aboutFilipino culture and how you can
better engage with that group ofpeople?
Jane (07:39):
Yeah, so when I started the project, I think like all
good research projects, you havea hypothesis of where you think
you're going to land.
And I probably went in a pathwayI didn't think I was going to
end up in because I ended up inthis rabbit hole.
Of cultural intelligence and Iprobably knew I'd go down a
(08:01):
rabbit hole about something likethat, but man, I was actually
just really blown away by thiswhole concept of cultural
intelligence and what it meantand the level of detail it went
to.
So that was probably the firstlearning I had was around
actually what does it look liketo be culturally intelligent and
what outcomes and what benefitsdo you get from that?
(08:21):
Because I think it's really easyto do some basic stuff and
think, Oh yeah, I'm nailingthis.
But actually CQ pushes you a lotfurther along in terms of that
cultural awareness piece.
And I know I'm talking to you,Greg, as someone who has been
down this rabbit hole far longerthan I have and done lots more
(08:43):
work in it, so I've only reallytouched the surface, but I think
one of the big findings for mewas this understanding that
people are generally reallyunaware of the really large
impact your own culture has onthe way you interpret the world,
and there's a lot of unconsciousbias in there.
(09:05):
And I think that was probably,sounds really simple to say out
loud, but when I was listeningto the stories of the group
participants.
You really do put your own lenson it.
And it was a little bit, um,really simple example was so in
our focus group, which was greatfun, actually, we had lots of
(09:27):
great chat and one of the staffsaid they got off the plane.
They came here and they just puta helmet on to ride a bike.
And I was like, yeah.
And they're like, why?
I was like don't you wear ahelmet back in the Philippines
to ride a motorbike?
Like, why is this so different?
Oh, we hang it on the handlebarsif we see the police officer we
(09:48):
put it on, don't we?
I was like, okay, good.
So they understood we need towear it.
I said, so why was it so weirdwhen you came here?
And he said what's going to fallon my head?
Simple example, but I was onlythinking about that from wear
the helmet, because you're on abike, different risks to
different differentinterpretations.
So I think that's probably oneof my main learnings and the
(10:10):
fact that for me, CQ is reallyimportant to know about the
people you're leading becauseyou only get success if you're
really mindful.
of your own assumptions andtheir assumptions when you're
interacting and how youunderstand how that changes
(10:31):
perception.
So I always have an analogy Italk to people about here around
the Granny Smith Apple.
Do you like Granny Smith Apples,Greg?
Greg (10:40):
Look, I have a tree of Granny Smith apples here I've
got to say I probably wouldn'tpick one and eat it as it is,
but quite happy to put it in apot and a bit of sugar and all
good.
Jane (10:52):
So I would eat it off the tree, right?
There's nothing I can say toyou.
That's going to make me convinceyou that Granny Smith apple was
delicious off the tree, nothing,and vice versa, right?
So the reality is we have aGranny Smith apple, our
perception of that is different.
And we're not right or wrong,we're just different because of
(11:12):
the way that we've ended up inthis point in life.
I'm using this as a reallysimple example, whereas if we
take the granny smith apple weput it in the pot and we put the
sugar with it and we put theflour with it you and I will
both sit down very happily andeat that with some vanilla ice
cream.
Okay.
Yeah.
So if we've taken the reality,we've applied our lenses, we've
(11:33):
shook it up, we've shaken it up,and we've changed it a bit.
Now we've got a position that'scompletely different.
And for me, I guess that's CQfor me around that cultural
piece.
It doesn't matter what you aretalking about, whether it's,
migrant workers cultural piecebeing from a different country,
or whether it's company, orwhether it's individual, or
whether it's, it doesn't matter,the same kind of principle
(11:54):
applies.
They're probably the biggestlearning for me around the CQ
piece was that.
It was funny actually, I cameacross something in a piece of
research, it said that the, thesaying used to be when in Rome,
do as the Romans do.
How about when in Rome, get toknow the Romans, might be a way
of applying, applying thatlogic.
I guess that was the first biglearning for me around what CQ
(12:15):
is and how it's applied andwhere we can get to.
And I think from a health andsafety perspective, Only when
someone feels truly safe,mentally, physically,
emotionally, and culturallysafe, do they feel they can
speak freely in terms ofreporting and assessing risk and
(12:36):
saying, I don't feel comfortableto do that job, it feels unsafe.
So until you have that, and Ithink for the migrant workers in
the Philippines, in theFilipinos I spoke to, that was a
really big piece.
Do I feel culturally safe?
To speak up.
At least that was what I wastrying to get to.
In terms of the Filipino cultureheck I learned a lot,
absolutely.
(12:57):
And I used Hofstede in hiscultural framework a bit to help
me compare the two culturesaround his six headings, which
was quite useful.
Interestingly most of them,apart from power distance, which
is about hierarchy And the otherone, which was indulgence.
(13:17):
We were pretty similar, oh,sorry, and individualistic to
collectivistic.
The rest of them were prettysimilar, apart from Filipinos
being more collectivistic, morehierarchical and less likely to
less likely to indulge, the restof them pretty similar across
New Zealand and the Philippines.
But indulgence was quite funny.
(13:38):
New Zealand has a motto where wework hard and we play hard,
right?
We earn our money and we playhard, and the Philippines just
doesn't actually seem to betheir tendency.
So one story I heard was, Andthis is the challenge I think
we've got going forward.
So we had a story where one ofour family, one of their kids
(14:00):
came home from school holidays,and they said to mom and dad,
where are we going on holidaythese holidays?
And mum's we're not going onholiday, what are you talking
about?
Oh so and so's going toQueenstown, and so and so's
going to Australia, and so andso's going to Auckland, where
are we going?
And it was just this thiscontrast between this kid saw
(14:21):
all of his Kiwi friends goingoff and having these adventures
and why are we not doing that?
So yeah, that indulgent piecewas quite funny.
I think the main thing that cameout of the Filipino research for
me was we're no different, we'refacing the same challenges in
this space as they do around theworld.
So Canada, the UK, have verysimilar challenges.
(14:41):
When the workers turn up in NewZealand, they generally turn up
with very little understandingof health and safety and what
that means.
And we have a really differentperception of risk.
So how New Zealanders view riskand how migrants view risk is
real different.
And in some cases it's quite arisk blindness.
(15:02):
Or they see risk as inherentlyacceptable to get the job done.
And interestingly, so I've doneall my research, it was my last
focus group, and they were, Iasked them a question, and they
were speaking in Tagalog toanswer my question and translate
it, and one of them said, oh,it's like bahalana.
I was like, I don't know aboutthat.
(15:23):
And they came back and I said,what?
What did he say?
What's Bahalana?
And they were like, yeah,Bahalana.
I said, what is Bahalana?
And they said, no, Bahalana,Batman.
I was like, what are you talkingabout?
So the Bahalana means what willbe.
It is what it is.
Baharana Batman is, Oh, we'lljust leave it up to Batman.
I just thought that was a reallykey way of summing it up.
(15:45):
So, doing some research in itit's around that whole, quite a,
they're quite a Catholic basedCountry.
So it's God's will.
So that marries up with that.
So now when I go to a farm,actually in our business and
there's a new worker from thePhilippines or a new Filipino
actually that's joined our team,I said, I've got one rule for
you here at Dairy Holdings.
No Bahalana Batman.
(16:07):
And they just laugh and I'mlike, no, that's not how we do
health and safety here.
No Bahalana Batman.
And it just really sums up that,I think that risk perception
thing really well.
How we perceive risk and howthey perceive risk is quite
different.
And that doesn't necessarily, itdoesn't necessarily lend itself
(16:28):
to CQ as much.
You can have that sameconversation no matter no matter
where.
So I guess that was probably onelearning.
The other learning, is around isaround rights of work.
So, our immigration settings.
And that way our visas are, iswe lock an employee to an
employer, and that does erodecultural safety, whichever way
(16:51):
you want to skin the cat.
And the same problem overseas aswell, so very similar, but when
you're locking in a person tohave to work for an employer,
you are eroding the ability forthem to feel safe enough to
speak, because a lot of thepeople I spoke to in this
project had left their familiesat home to come and work here to
(17:11):
earn money to send home tosupport their families.
When I did this research, it waspost COVID.
Some of them hadn't seen theirkids for four to five years,
left home when they were threeor four and now they were eight
or nine.
I can't comprehend that.
My kids are away for a week atthe moment and it's only day
three and I'm hanging out to seemy children.
(17:31):
Imagine leaving them for fiveyears to work overseas to earn
money.
It's not actually go homebecause all the money you're
earning you're sending home.
But if you're tied to anemployer who has bad practices,
very difficult to leave, verycostly to leave, it's difficult
to leave.
And so that is something thatkind of fell into the research
around that erosion of culturalsafety for those people.
Greg (17:54):
And I think there was some organisations that might have
come across that sort of towardsthe end of the Canterbury
rebuild where, a bunch ofmigrant employees had been
allocated or had come with aparticular employer, that work
dried up.
That company had some workelsewhere and I, they couldn't
(18:15):
send them there because that wasa breach of the visa conditions.
I know some awesome stuff inthere, Jane.
I just want to, make a commenton a couple of them.
Absolutely right when you talkabout Understanding your own
cultural makeup before you canreally be culturally intelligent
(18:35):
and understanding how you'regoing to respond in certain
situations, understanding howyou deal with conflict, how you
collaborate, all of those sortsof things.
And I think I've said thisbefore when I did my leadership
program.
The analogy of leadership isfirstly not about everybody
(18:57):
else.
Firstly, it's about yourself andunderstanding your own approach
to leadership and your ownemotional intelligence and how
you manage stress and all ofthose sorts of things.
And CQ, cultural intelligence,is exactly the same in that,
before you can be culturallyintelligent you need to
understand your own story andyour own makeup.
And as you say, it it doesintroduce those, biases that you
(19:18):
might have.
Maybe just a little bit of anexample as well.
I was recently at the Te RopuMarutau o Aotearoa.
Health and Safety Conference andgentleman was talking, he was
one of the speakers and talkingabout his upbringing as a Māori
person from the East Coast whogrew up speaking Te Reo, didn't
(19:41):
know how to speak English untilhe was 15.
Absolutely from a culturalperspective saw mountains and
rivers as living beings.
And basically said the Pākehāway of life was absolutely
confusing to him.
And I was thinking about that,about how, Māori and Pākehā live
(20:02):
on the same land, we might aswell be somebody here and
somebody on the west coast of, Idon't know, Africa or the middle
of Europe or something.
The level of difference thatthere is between the two
cultures at a real deep level.
Like your your green applesexample, and the Baha lana word,
you told me about that a fewyears ago and I've actually got
it on my wall here just toremind me about differences.
(20:24):
And I guess the question fromthat then becomes, in some ways
you can't say no Bahalanabecause it's their culture.
So I guess you have to find someway of saying.
Okay, if that's the culturalview of whatever will be, what
(20:49):
is it that is going to influencea different culture's approach
to being safe at work under NewZealand laws and expectations?
You have to find that thing thatwill influence those individuals
so that they, will, follow theway that you want them to
operate in your organization.
Jane (21:11):
Yeah, you're 100 percent right.
I guess the challenge around,Bahalana is a great way to open
the conversation around riskassessment and perception and
why it's different in NewZealand, but just like the
Granny Smith apple, I can'tcreate someone who disregards
that completely in terms of,because it's just how they see
the world, right?
And I guess, and I can't if you,if everyone was waiting for some
(21:34):
great answer as to how to fixthis problem, they've probably
come to the wrong podcast, butif you don't leave this podcast
with more questions and answers,I'm not sure I've done my job
right, Greg.
But I think it just goes back toyour point around, really
challenging how you'redelivering messaging and
engaging with people.
(21:55):
So our policies in health andsafety tend to be quite
individualistic by the nature ofa policy.
you will do it this way or youwill not do it this way.
Like it's quite an individualthing.
And look, I'm 100 percent guiltyof this too, so I'm not saying
that I am any better than theaverage bear.
(22:17):
But when you're thinking about,when you're thinking about
Filipino being collectivistic,how can you bring some of that
collectivisticness into yourindividualistic procedures?
How can you be morecollaborative?
But it is a challenge.
Like I, whenever I have thisconversation, I often get
(22:38):
reminded that sometimes ourFilipino workers are very
agreeable.
So one of the stories I got toldwhen I did this research was
from a, he's a contract milkernow, but he came here as a young
Filipino farm assistant.
And he said he remembers hisfirst week or so on a farm, he
was working for this guy andthey had to take a tractor up
onto the hill.
(22:59):
And the farmer asked all theKiwis to do it and they all
said, I'm not doing that.
No, I don't feel comfortable.
It got to him.
And of course in his world,there was no, you couldn't say
no because he was fresh off theplane.
His view of the world washierarchy.
My boss asked me to do aquestion.
I do the job.
So when he got asked, he said,yeah, I'll do that.
Even all of the key people inthe team said no.
(23:22):
He still said yes.
And I said, why did you do that?
He said, because Jane, that wasjust, it's the way, it's the way
it was.
And now he's been here and he'smoved his way out through farm
management, now he's contractmilker.
He said, I don't, I would neversay yes to that now, but he said
I was off the plane.
And so that's just whathappened.
(23:43):
And so the problem I have withthat story, Greg, is if all of
the Kiwi workers said no, thefarmer probably should have
stopped asking someone to go upthere and do it, because
obviously it wasn't a placeanyone felt safe.
He just took the guy that saidyes.
So it's how you communicate withone worker won't be the same way
(24:03):
you should be communicating withthe rest of your team,
regardless of whether they'reFilipino or South American,
everyone's going to have adifferent way that they prefer
to communicate.
And I think if you're a goodemployer, it's about how you can
focus on that collective piece,because we know, regardless of
this research, we know that ifpeople work together to be safe,
(24:26):
we have better outcomes.
In fact, you and I know if youwork well together, plan your
work, have all the tools to doyour work, and the right people
with the right skill level, youhave the byproduct of safety.
So I think it's, in a nutshellfor me, the cultural
intelligence piece flows intothat as well.
Greg (24:50):
Just thinking about your, comments around developing
policy and all of those sorts ofthings, and whether it's a
policy, whether it's aprocedure, whether it's a risk
assessment or a hazard ID,whatever it might be if you
think about the collectivismculture, isn't that the perfect
analogy for worker engagement?
Because you might have a groupof Filipino workers.
(25:14):
Pacific Islander workers,whatever and it's all about
getting together as a group andagreeing the outcome or the
process or the system at themoment, from an individualistic
perspective, as you say, here itis, this is what I have done,
and this is what you were goingto do whereas the collective
approach would be okay, thanksfor that, we're going to take it
(25:34):
over here, And have a chat aboutit in this environment over
here.
And I think, maybe a little offtopic, but I think we just get
so stuck on what workerengagement looks like.
We think it's just health andsafety reps in a toolbox
meeting.
And because that's what the lawtalks about or health and safety
committee.
(25:55):
We don't get a lot of thesediscussions about what worker
engagement might look like ifyou're thinking about it more
holistically.
And I think, culturalintelligence is potentially a
gateway to enhanced workerengagement that is a little bit
more real than a committee thatnobody talks at and only goes to
because there's a pizza on thetable, and some people that have
(26:18):
been through a training courseand have got a title to tick a
theoretical box that doesn'treally exist.
And I just think if weunderstood the different values
of all of these differentcultures that are working in our
organizations, and allow themthe opportunity to express those
values or be those people thenthe worker engagement piece
would be much, much better.
Jane (26:40):
Yeah, I think you're 100 percent right.
I think also, it's about clearcommunicated goals as well, like
the research showed that, like Isaid before, apart from a few
areas.
New Zealand and Filipino weresimilar and it was around having
the collaboration, clearcommunication good values.
(27:02):
So actually one of the storieswas, so Greg, if I work for you
and we're on a building site andwe have a disagreement during
the day.
So say I'm your foreman orwhatever and you turn up and you
disagree with how I've setsomething up and we might have a
little bit of a heateddiscussion about that.
We'll do that.
And then about an hour later,you'll say to me, Oh, are you
coming to the pub tonight?
And I'll be like yeah, I'll seeyou there.
(27:22):
And we'll go and we'll have adrink.
And it happens, but we're havinga drink.
Not so much for the Filipinoculture, like really hard to
earn trust, really easy to loseit.
And that was one of the examplesthat got shown.
They couldn't understand thatthey wanted to go to the pub
together.
When they'd had a heateddiscussion during the day, like
that just seemed really foreignto them.
So value based was prettyimportant, but that's the same.
(27:44):
Doesn't, again, a lot of thesethings, it doesn't actually
relate necessarily to migrantworkers.
It's just being a good boss.
But there was one other thingthat did come up about ensuring
the security of the workeraround for the Filipino workers
around saving face.
In Filipino culture, it was theydidn't want to be embarrassed
(28:06):
and so an employer who stood ina toolbox meeting and picked
them out, maybe wouldn't be agood boss for them.
And so then it was someone whocould do that in a way that
saved them face, which I thoughtwas quite important as well.
But really that collaboration,that collectivistic, was still
(28:28):
the underlying theme.
Greg (28:29):
And I think the important thing to understand too, if
you're thinking about thesecultural values, is also,
probably on the other end of thescale, don't get caught.
In the stereotype.
Because, just because we sithere and say, Filipino is this,
that, and the other Filipinoculture is, looks like this.
(28:51):
Yes it may be but actually thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
all people from that culture areon the same page, it's a
starting point.
To help you understand wherethings might go, but it doesn't
mean 100 percent of the peoplethat are of that culture are
actually apply those culturalvalues.
Jane (29:12):
100 percent and the longer they've been in New Zealand, the
less likely that was to be true.
So like I said the Filipina, theworker I spoke to who came here
as a pharmacist and a worker,compared to where he is today,
miles apart in terms of in termsof that.
And I think that's a really goodpoint for CQ, right?
you never get it.
(29:32):
You do some work and you learnsome stuff and you try and apply
it.
And I actually did apresentation on this, for NZISM
a couple of hours after theresearch, so probably about 18
months ago, and I said to themthe great thing about CQ is I
can guarantee you That you willinsult somebody because you're
trying to know better and you'retrying to apply what you've
(29:56):
learned and you're going to walkyourself into a trap not of any
other intention because youhaven't, because of the way
you've interpreted with yourworldview, because you've fallen
to exactly the comment you justmade, Greg, around I've done
this research, so it must betrue.
And you apply it wrongly oryou're going to you're going to
upset someone and.
(30:19):
I guess it's just the nature oflearning, it's how you reflect
on that but I think when you putyourself in this world where
you're trying to be more you'retrying to learn and you're
trying to do better you areprobably going to end up in a
position where you've said itthe wrong way or said the wrong
thing.
Greg (30:35):
I think we we talked quite in depth about that in episode
two with Chris Peace and heshared a couple of stories of
things that he'd got wrong.
In, in certain scenarios.
And look, absolutely, you'regoing to make a mistake.
You're absolutely right in termsof talking about reflection.
That's another piece of the CQpuzzle.
We know reflective practice iswhat the safety industry talks
(30:57):
about.
That's when we learn, when we goaway and think about how did
that go?
How can I do it better?
What did I learn?
What's going to be differentnext time?
So yeah, absolutely.
With all of that.
Can you believe we're almost attime or we probably are at time,
but I would like to wrap up oursession with, and I know you
said before, if you're notanswering everybody's questions,
(31:18):
then you haven't done your job,but I'm still going to put you
on the spot and ask you for acouple of tips that health and
safety professionals around NewZealand or maybe even around the
world might take on board ifthey've got Filipino workers in
their teams.
We know as you said before, inyour environment, Filipino
workers are are quite a highpercentage.
(31:41):
We know that people from thatpart of the world operate in the
agricultural space, in thehealthcare space, A couple of
tips that we can learn from interms of how to make that group
feel more inclusive in ourworkplaces.
Jane (31:57):
I knew you'd put me on the spot, Greg.
And I thought about this and Iwas like, it's going to put me
on the spot and I still haven'tcome up with something like
Miraculous.
But I guess I'll say just takethe time to go and talk to them
and learn about what's importantfor them.
Learn about, like religiousholidays might be really
(32:18):
important to some members ofyour team.
We make them celebrate Christmasand some cultures don't
celebrate Christmas, but we inNew Zealand are like it's
Christmas time.
So you shall, but actuallythere's another holiday that
might be more important.
Go and learn that.
Go and understand that and thensee, you should be flexible
(32:39):
enough in your organization andresilient enough to to make some
changes that help people under,to fit that stuff in.
So I guess that'd be my firsttip is just go and talk to them.
And I guess probably for healthand safety specifically I think
it would be about helping themunderstand why speaking up and
reporting is important.
(33:00):
And if they do that, help themunderstand what the outcome will
be.
Help them understand thatthere's no bad reaction if they
tell you that the scaffolding iswobbly there's no bad reaction
for that.
If they feel like their twowheeler is not working properly,
there's no reaction for that,except for those things being
(33:22):
fixed.
So yeah, those might, that wouldbe my two top tips is talk to
them and understand them andlearn about them and learn about
their culture.
I tell you, they make a greatfeast.
I've had some fantastic food.
From some of our Filipinofamily, which is they always
feed me actually.
Some of them always feed me whenI go, which is great because I
(33:43):
need feeding.
But food's obviously a reallybig part of that.
Learn that and enjoy it andembrace it.
And then from a health andsafety perspective, help them
understand why reporting andspeaking up is important and
what the outcomes from thatwould be.
Greg (33:59):
I think the other one that I'd add, and I've experienced
this and I think I've eventalked about it on this podcast
at times, is maybe just learnthe word for hello in your
language.
And we all run around and we,kia ora, but we're not always,
talking to just māori people,there's all these other cultures
and you probably only need tolearn two or three or obviously
(34:22):
the ones that are relevant foryour workplace.
And I've just I've just seenthat so many times over the last
few years where you learn theword and this big grin just
appears and it just, it seems tome like it makes people's days
when you recognize andacknowledge their language.
Jane (34:41):
Yeah, I know I say Kumusta to people when I do that, and
it's just, yeah, they do, theyget a big smile because they're
like, oh.
It's cool.
That's why, I think that's whyfor me, when I'm speaking to our
new members and say Bahalana,equally that same big grin,
because they're like, how doesshe know that?
How does a Pākehā woman from NewZealand know know our term?
(35:02):
They just think it's hilarious.
I guess that's just part of thatsame, for me, that's that same
comment, get to know them.
Doesn't matter if it's Filipinoor South American, but, the same
thing can be applied.
And it's a pretty easy thing todo.
And then if it's not right,they'll quickly tell you.
Greg (35:15):
Yeah.
Hey, Jane.
Awesome, as always, to catch upand have a chat.
Really enjoyed the discussionand Yeah some great gems and I
know that the whole culturalintelligence concept is gaining
a little bit of momentum, and Ithink you've been part of that
and still a long way to go, butgreat to have a chat about that,
(35:36):
and thanks for putting some timeaside to participate.
Jane (35:40):
Thank you for having me Greg.
It's been great.
I always love having a good chatwith you and yeah, it was great.
Thanks very much.
Greg (35:47):
It was great to hear Jane talk about what she had learned
about cultural intelligenceduring her studies.
her willingness to listen tosome of the stories and
perspectives from the Filipinoworkers has lead to the creation
of a trusting relationship wheretheir perspectives were able to
be shared.
Many of the comments she madereally showed a depth of
(36:08):
understanding, not only haveparticular cultural values held
by the different cultures butalso in this case, how those
values showed up in Filipinoculture and how someone not from
that culture might learn how tobe curious about those values
and what response might beappropriate.
(36:30):
Jane covered off on culturalvalues, such as collectivism and
power distance and describedreally well how those values
actually show up for people in aworkplace setting.
How many workers in yourorganization are there, who
might not be able to refusedangerous work because of their
preference for high powerdistance.
(36:51):
As for Jane's advice for healthand safety professionals.
She talked about just getting toknow workers who are different
from you or different from themajority.
Understand their perspectivesand needs and then work towards
ways that some of those needscan be integrated in your
approach to managing health andsafety.
(37:11):
Janes other piece of advice wasto really work hard to provide
practical reasons as to whyreporting is a positive step to
take and what the worker mightexperience as a result.
Sometimes companies might notactually have a blame culture
but there can be a perception ofone so prove that perception
(37:32):
wrong and appreciate everysituation that has reported.
It's a learning opportunity.
We've come to the end of thisepisode thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
(37:53):
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates, if we aren't
connected send me an invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
(38:17):
to this podcast I'd reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
I'm going to be taking a bit ofa break from releasing episodes
for a couple of weeks.
I have some really outstandingguests joining me in the few
weeks in the future.
The next episode will bereleased on the 28th of May
(38:37):
where I'm joined by Mike Styles.
Mike has worked in the field ofdyslexia for more than 20 years.
He's had a career as a secondaryschool teacher and delivered
adult community education in hisarea of specialism, which is
horticulture.
Mike now works to improveoutcomes for people with
dyslexia.
This promises to be afascinating discussion.
(39:00):
Thanks again for tuning into theCultural Intelligent Safety
Professional, Ka Kitei
Welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional, a podcastaimed it providing a platform,
whereby safety professionals candevelop a pathway to enhance
their cultural intelligencecapability, which will in turn,
help them function moreeffectively when working in a
multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education,and of course cultural
intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum including from
(00:43):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you,
the listener enhance yourcultural intelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in a diverse environmentand quite frankly, that's all
the time, no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
(01:06):
might be it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
backgrounds, experiences, andbeliefs all built on their
figured world.
So today I'm talking with JaneFowles.
Jane is based in Ashburton, justsouth of Christchurch, and works
in the dairy industry.
(01:27):
In 2022, Jane was accepted intothe Kellogg's Rural Leadership
Program and her area of studyfor that program, was looking at
Filipino worker engagement inhealth and safety, in that dairy
industry, in the mid Canterburyarea.
Jane's a pretty passionateadvocate of the health and
safety profession.
(01:48):
And is also accomplished in theHR space kia ora Jane, great to
have you on the podcast.
Jane (01:53):
Kia Ora, thanks Greg, great to be here.
Greg (01:56):
So let's get straight into it.
I know you've got lots to talkabout today.
And we have known each other fora little while now.
And so I know some of yourhistory, but for the audience,
do you want to give us a bit ofan introduction into Jane and
your story?
Jane (02:11):
Yeah, sure.
I just feel like my story is notas exciting as other people's
stories, but it's still a storynone the less..
Yep, currently call Pakatiri orAshburton home.
We've been here for 10 yearsnow.
We came from Blenheim beforethen but I grew up in
Wellington.
We actually came here, I camehere from England when I was
quite young.
Ended up in Ashburton I movedfor love, apparently.
(02:34):
So my husband's made me movelocation twice in my life.
Both times for him to get a joband I followed.
There you go.
You'll take from that if youwill.
Excellent.
Yeah, so before I came toAshburton hadn't really sat in
the rural sector very much, butcame here obviously pretty big
sector.
I actually set up a businessabout nine months after we moved
(02:54):
here doing HR and health andsafety consultancy.
Did that for five years, grewthat up to be a pretty we had a
great bunch of people and agreat bunch of clients spanning
the whole agri sector.
And a bit of construction andmanufacturing as well.
Then COVID hit, my kids hadgrown up a bit and I decided to
go and get a real job.
So I moved to Dairy Holdingsthree and a half years ago now
(03:18):
as health and safety manager andnow people and culture.
So like after all things,health, safety, people,
wellbeing So really great role,really great space.
I've actually become quite afierce advocate for Safety in
the agri space.
And so involved with Safer Farmsas well.
Currently looking at quad bikesafety New Zealand through that
(03:39):
organization as well.
Greg (03:40):
That's a big area with lots of players with a whole
bunch of different views.
Jane (03:45):
Yep, it is and getting my geek hat on, we're doing some
really great work in theresearch space and the data
space and capturing someinformation.
I think everyone knows that dataare New Zealand from a health
and safety perspective.
Could be better.
And that kind of same thinglends itself to the quad bike
piece as well.
Yeah, Joanne Crawford actuallyat Vic Uni has been really
(04:07):
helpful with us in that space.
And we've got some great peopleas part of this group working on
that project.
So watch the space, Greg.
Greg (04:13):
So let's talk about the Kellogg's program that you were
involved with a couple of yearsago.
Firstly, what's it all about?
How did you get involved?
I'm guessing that it's not aboutbreakfast cereal?
Jane (04:26):
No, and they actually opened that on the first day.
They're like let's just get thisKellogg thing out of the room.
We're not anything to do withthe breakfast cereal.
The Kellogg Rural LeadershipProgram is run by rural leaders.
It's a six month program.
I guess for people who aredeveloping themselves to be a
leader in the sector, in thefood and fiber sector it's a bit
(04:46):
of a unique program.
So there's some kind ofresidency that you go to do some
leadership work, and then youget quite immersed in some of
the industry players.
So we went to Wellington, forexample, or everyone goes to
Wellington, for example, for aweek you get to have that
connection with government,which is actually really useful
when you don't live inWellington.
It's quite a differentenvironment.
(05:08):
And as part of that six monthprogram, you do a research
project, which is pretty hefty.
It's run very similar to I guessa master's thesis downgraded but
still that same researchprocess, so lit review, data
collection qualitative orquantitative, review,
(05:29):
conclusions, recommendations,the whole kit and caboodle so
it's a really great program andyeah, I really enjoyed it,
actually.
And you get to choose your ownresearch project.
So I was obviously quite keen topick something in that health
and safety space.
And yeah, it was a really greatexperience.
Greg (05:46):
And so your thesis was focused on I don't know if
that's the right word, if it'sofficially a thesis, Research
project, was focused on workerengagement within the Filipino
community around health andsafety in that mid Canterbury
area.
So I guess that's not unlike amaster's program.
(06:07):
You've drilled right down deepinto a subject rather than being
too broad.
You've tried to get right intoquite a specific area of
research.
And so the Filipino community isquite large in the mid
Canterbury slash DHL area, ifI'm correct, is that right?
Jane (06:27):
Yep, yep.
So second largest proportion ofour workforce is Filipino, which
is probably prettyrepresentative of, our area and
possibly the dairy sector ingeneral, just as in terms of
what we've seen over the lastsort of five to eight years, in
terms of those migrant workerscoming through.
And you're right, Greg.
(06:47):
The research was very muchfocused around quite a specific
question.
So my question was how can webetter engage our Filipino dairy
farm workers in mid Canterburywith Health and Safety on Farm?
And part of that research wasactually speaking to and
surveying and focus groups withsome of those workers in our
area.
Greg (07:09):
And what sort of roles have those workers got within
your farm environment?
Jane (07:13):
Oh, they were everything from farm assistant through to 2
IC, I think we had back then.
And I also spoke to some peoplethat employed them as well, so
farm managers, contract milkers,share milkers as well.
Greg (07:25):
And so tell us about the research.
What did you do you get out ofit?
What were some of the keyfindings?
Did you learn a lot aboutFilipino culture and how you can
better engage with that group ofpeople?
Jane (07:39):
Yeah, so when I started the project, I think like all
good research projects, you havea hypothesis of where you think
you're going to land.
And I probably went in a pathwayI didn't think I was going to
end up in because I ended up inthis rabbit hole.
Of cultural intelligence and Iprobably knew I'd go down a
(08:01):
rabbit hole about something likethat, but man, I was actually
just really blown away by thiswhole concept of cultural
intelligence and what it meantand the level of detail it went
to.
So that was probably the firstlearning I had was around
actually what does it look liketo be culturally intelligent and
what outcomes and what benefitsdo you get from that?
(08:21):
Because I think it's really easyto do some basic stuff and
think, Oh yeah, I'm nailingthis.
But actually CQ pushes you a lotfurther along in terms of that
cultural awareness piece.
And I know I'm talking to you,Greg, as someone who has been
down this rabbit hole far longerthan I have and done lots more
(08:43):
work in it, so I've only reallytouched the surface, but I think
one of the big findings for mewas this understanding that
people are generally reallyunaware of the really large
impact your own culture has onthe way you interpret the world,
and there's a lot of unconsciousbias in there.
(09:05):
And I think that was probably,sounds really simple to say out
loud, but when I was listeningto the stories of the group
participants.
You really do put your own lenson it.
And it was a little bit, um,really simple example was so in
our focus group, which was greatfun, actually, we had lots of
(09:27):
great chat and one of the staffsaid they got off the plane.
They came here and they just puta helmet on to ride a bike.
And I was like, yeah.
And they're like, why?
I was like don't you wear ahelmet back in the Philippines
to ride a motorbike?
Like, why is this so different?
Oh, we hang it on the handlebarsif we see the police officer we
(09:48):
put it on, don't we?
I was like, okay, good.
So they understood we need towear it.
I said, so why was it so weirdwhen you came here?
And he said what's going to fallon my head?
Simple example, but I was onlythinking about that from wear
the helmet, because you're on abike, different risks to
different differentinterpretations.
So I think that's probably oneof my main learnings and the
(10:10):
fact that for me, CQ is reallyimportant to know about the
people you're leading becauseyou only get success if you're
really mindful.
of your own assumptions andtheir assumptions when you're
interacting and how youunderstand how that changes
(10:31):
perception.
So I always have an analogy Italk to people about here around
the Granny Smith Apple.
Do you like Granny Smith Apples,Greg?
Greg (10:40):
Look, I have a tree of Granny Smith apples here I've
got to say I probably wouldn'tpick one and eat it as it is,
but quite happy to put it in apot and a bit of sugar and all
good.
Jane (10:52):
So I would eat it off the tree, right?
There's nothing I can say toyou.
That's going to make me convinceyou that Granny Smith apple was
delicious off the tree, nothing,and vice versa, right?
So the reality is we have aGranny Smith apple, our
perception of that is different.
And we're not right or wrong,we're just different because of
(11:12):
the way that we've ended up inthis point in life.
I'm using this as a reallysimple example, whereas if we
take the granny smith apple weput it in the pot and we put the
sugar with it and we put theflour with it you and I will
both sit down very happily andeat that with some vanilla ice
cream.
Okay.
Yeah.
So if we've taken the reality,we've applied our lenses, we've
(11:33):
shook it up, we've shaken it up,and we've changed it a bit.
Now we've got a position that'scompletely different.
And for me, I guess that's CQfor me around that cultural
piece.
It doesn't matter what you aretalking about, whether it's,
migrant workers cultural piecebeing from a different country,
or whether it's company, orwhether it's individual, or
whether it's, it doesn't matter,the same kind of principle
(11:54):
applies.
They're probably the biggestlearning for me around the CQ
piece was that.
It was funny actually, I cameacross something in a piece of
research, it said that the, thesaying used to be when in Rome,
do as the Romans do.
How about when in Rome, get toknow the Romans, might be a way
of applying, applying thatlogic.
I guess that was the first biglearning for me around what CQ
(12:15):
is and how it's applied andwhere we can get to.
And I think from a health andsafety perspective, Only when
someone feels truly safe,mentally, physically,
emotionally, and culturallysafe, do they feel they can
speak freely in terms ofreporting and assessing risk and
(12:36):
saying, I don't feel comfortableto do that job, it feels unsafe.
So until you have that, and Ithink for the migrant workers in
the Philippines, in theFilipinos I spoke to, that was a
really big piece.
Do I feel culturally safe?
To speak up.
At least that was what I wastrying to get to.
In terms of the Filipino cultureheck I learned a lot,
absolutely.
(12:57):
And I used Hofstede in hiscultural framework a bit to help
me compare the two culturesaround his six headings, which
was quite useful.
Interestingly most of them,apart from power distance, which
is about hierarchy And the otherone, which was indulgence.
(13:17):
We were pretty similar, oh,sorry, and individualistic to
collectivistic.
The rest of them were prettysimilar, apart from Filipinos
being more collectivistic, morehierarchical and less likely to
less likely to indulge, the restof them pretty similar across
New Zealand and the Philippines.
But indulgence was quite funny.
(13:38):
New Zealand has a motto where wework hard and we play hard,
right?
We earn our money and we playhard, and the Philippines just
doesn't actually seem to betheir tendency.
So one story I heard was, Andthis is the challenge I think
we've got going forward.
So we had a story where one ofour family, one of their kids
(14:00):
came home from school holidays,and they said to mom and dad,
where are we going on holidaythese holidays?
And mum's we're not going onholiday, what are you talking
about?
Oh so and so's going toQueenstown, and so and so's
going to Australia, and so andso's going to Auckland, where
are we going?
And it was just this thiscontrast between this kid saw
(14:21):
all of his Kiwi friends goingoff and having these adventures
and why are we not doing that?
So yeah, that indulgent piecewas quite funny.
I think the main thing that cameout of the Filipino research for
me was we're no different, we'refacing the same challenges in
this space as they do around theworld.
So Canada, the UK, have verysimilar challenges.
(14:41):
When the workers turn up in NewZealand, they generally turn up
with very little understandingof health and safety and what
that means.
And we have a really differentperception of risk.
So how New Zealanders view riskand how migrants view risk is
real different.
And in some cases it's quite arisk blindness.
(15:02):
Or they see risk as inherentlyacceptable to get the job done.
And interestingly, so I've doneall my research, it was my last
focus group, and they were, Iasked them a question, and they
were speaking in Tagalog toanswer my question and translate
it, and one of them said, oh,it's like bahalana.
I was like, I don't know aboutthat.
(15:23):
And they came back and I said,what?
What did he say?
What's Bahalana?
And they were like, yeah,Bahalana.
I said, what is Bahalana?
And they said, no, Bahalana,Batman.
I was like, what are you talkingabout?
So the Bahalana means what willbe.
It is what it is.
Baharana Batman is, Oh, we'lljust leave it up to Batman.
I just thought that was a reallykey way of summing it up.
(15:45):
So, doing some research in itit's around that whole, quite a,
they're quite a Catholic basedCountry.
So it's God's will.
So that marries up with that.
So now when I go to a farm,actually in our business and
there's a new worker from thePhilippines or a new Filipino
actually that's joined our team,I said, I've got one rule for
you here at Dairy Holdings.
No Bahalana Batman.
(16:07):
And they just laugh and I'mlike, no, that's not how we do
health and safety here.
No Bahalana Batman.
And it just really sums up that,I think that risk perception
thing really well.
How we perceive risk and howthey perceive risk is quite
different.
And that doesn't necessarily, itdoesn't necessarily lend itself
(16:28):
to CQ as much.
You can have that sameconversation no matter no matter
where.
So I guess that was probably onelearning.
The other learning, is around isaround rights of work.
So, our immigration settings.
And that way our visas are, iswe lock an employee to an
employer, and that does erodecultural safety, whichever way
(16:51):
you want to skin the cat.
And the same problem overseas aswell, so very similar, but when
you're locking in a person tohave to work for an employer,
you are eroding the ability forthem to feel safe enough to
speak, because a lot of thepeople I spoke to in this
project had left their familiesat home to come and work here to
(17:11):
earn money to send home tosupport their families.
When I did this research, it waspost COVID.
Some of them hadn't seen theirkids for four to five years,
left home when they were threeor four and now they were eight
or nine.
I can't comprehend that.
My kids are away for a week atthe moment and it's only day
three and I'm hanging out to seemy children.
(17:31):
Imagine leaving them for fiveyears to work overseas to earn
money.
It's not actually go homebecause all the money you're
earning you're sending home.
But if you're tied to anemployer who has bad practices,
very difficult to leave, verycostly to leave, it's difficult
to leave.
And so that is something thatkind of fell into the research
around that erosion of culturalsafety for those people.
Greg (17:54):
And I think there was some organisations that might have
come across that sort of towardsthe end of the Canterbury
rebuild where, a bunch ofmigrant employees had been
allocated or had come with aparticular employer, that work
dried up.
That company had some workelsewhere and I, they couldn't
(18:15):
send them there because that wasa breach of the visa conditions.
I know some awesome stuff inthere, Jane.
I just want to, make a commenton a couple of them.
Absolutely right when you talkabout Understanding your own
cultural makeup before you canreally be culturally intelligent
(18:35):
and understanding how you'regoing to respond in certain
situations, understanding howyou deal with conflict, how you
collaborate, all of those sortsof things.
And I think I've said thisbefore when I did my leadership
program.
The analogy of leadership isfirstly not about everybody
(18:57):
else.
Firstly, it's about yourself andunderstanding your own approach
to leadership and your ownemotional intelligence and how
you manage stress and all ofthose sorts of things.
And CQ, cultural intelligence,is exactly the same in that,
before you can be culturallyintelligent you need to
understand your own story andyour own makeup.
And as you say, it it doesintroduce those, biases that you
(19:18):
might have.
Maybe just a little bit of anexample as well.
I was recently at the Te RopuMarutau o Aotearoa.
Health and Safety Conference andgentleman was talking, he was
one of the speakers and talkingabout his upbringing as a Māori
person from the East Coast whogrew up speaking Te Reo, didn't
(19:41):
know how to speak English untilhe was 15.
Absolutely from a culturalperspective saw mountains and
rivers as living beings.
And basically said the Pākehāway of life was absolutely
confusing to him.
And I was thinking about that,about how, Māori and Pākehā live
(20:02):
on the same land, we might aswell be somebody here and
somebody on the west coast of, Idon't know, Africa or the middle
of Europe or something.
The level of difference thatthere is between the two
cultures at a real deep level.
Like your your green applesexample, and the Baha lana word,
you told me about that a fewyears ago and I've actually got
it on my wall here just toremind me about differences.
(20:24):
And I guess the question fromthat then becomes, in some ways
you can't say no Bahalanabecause it's their culture.
So I guess you have to find someway of saying.
Okay, if that's the culturalview of whatever will be, what
(20:49):
is it that is going to influencea different culture's approach
to being safe at work under NewZealand laws and expectations?
You have to find that thing thatwill influence those individuals
so that they, will, follow theway that you want them to
operate in your organization.
Jane (21:11):
Yeah, you're 100 percent right.
I guess the challenge around,Bahalana is a great way to open
the conversation around riskassessment and perception and
why it's different in NewZealand, but just like the
Granny Smith apple, I can'tcreate someone who disregards
that completely in terms of,because it's just how they see
the world, right?
And I guess, and I can't if you,if everyone was waiting for some
(21:34):
great answer as to how to fixthis problem, they've probably
come to the wrong podcast, butif you don't leave this podcast
with more questions and answers,I'm not sure I've done my job
right, Greg.
But I think it just goes back toyour point around, really
challenging how you'redelivering messaging and
engaging with people.
(21:55):
So our policies in health andsafety tend to be quite
individualistic by the nature ofa policy.
you will do it this way or youwill not do it this way.
Like it's quite an individualthing.
And look, I'm 100 percent guiltyof this too, so I'm not saying
that I am any better than theaverage bear.
(22:17):
But when you're thinking about,when you're thinking about
Filipino being collectivistic,how can you bring some of that
collectivisticness into yourindividualistic procedures?
How can you be morecollaborative?
But it is a challenge.
Like I, whenever I have thisconversation, I often get
(22:38):
reminded that sometimes ourFilipino workers are very
agreeable.
So one of the stories I got toldwhen I did this research was
from a, he's a contract milkernow, but he came here as a young
Filipino farm assistant.
And he said he remembers hisfirst week or so on a farm, he
was working for this guy andthey had to take a tractor up
onto the hill.
(22:59):
And the farmer asked all theKiwis to do it and they all
said, I'm not doing that.
No, I don't feel comfortable.
It got to him.
And of course in his world,there was no, you couldn't say
no because he was fresh off theplane.
His view of the world washierarchy.
My boss asked me to do aquestion.
I do the job.
So when he got asked, he said,yeah, I'll do that.
Even all of the key people inthe team said no.
(23:22):
He still said yes.
And I said, why did you do that?
He said, because Jane, that wasjust, it's the way, it's the way
it was.
And now he's been here and he'smoved his way out through farm
management, now he's contractmilker.
He said, I don't, I would neversay yes to that now, but he said
I was off the plane.
And so that's just whathappened.
(23:43):
And so the problem I have withthat story, Greg, is if all of
the Kiwi workers said no, thefarmer probably should have
stopped asking someone to go upthere and do it, because
obviously it wasn't a placeanyone felt safe.
He just took the guy that saidyes.
So it's how you communicate withone worker won't be the same way
(24:03):
you should be communicating withthe rest of your team,
regardless of whether they'reFilipino or South American,
everyone's going to have adifferent way that they prefer
to communicate.
And I think if you're a goodemployer, it's about how you can
focus on that collective piece,because we know, regardless of
this research, we know that ifpeople work together to be safe,
(24:26):
we have better outcomes.
In fact, you and I know if youwork well together, plan your
work, have all the tools to doyour work, and the right people
with the right skill level, youhave the byproduct of safety.
So I think it's, in a nutshellfor me, the cultural
intelligence piece flows intothat as well.
Greg (24:50):
Just thinking about your, comments around developing
policy and all of those sorts ofthings, and whether it's a
policy, whether it's aprocedure, whether it's a risk
assessment or a hazard ID,whatever it might be if you
think about the collectivismculture, isn't that the perfect
analogy for worker engagement?
Because you might have a groupof Filipino workers.
(25:14):
Pacific Islander workers,whatever and it's all about
getting together as a group andagreeing the outcome or the
process or the system at themoment, from an individualistic
perspective, as you say, here itis, this is what I have done,
and this is what you were goingto do whereas the collective
approach would be okay, thanksfor that, we're going to take it
(25:34):
over here, And have a chat aboutit in this environment over
here.
And I think, maybe a little offtopic, but I think we just get
so stuck on what workerengagement looks like.
We think it's just health andsafety reps in a toolbox
meeting.
And because that's what the lawtalks about or health and safety
committee.
(25:55):
We don't get a lot of thesediscussions about what worker
engagement might look like ifyou're thinking about it more
holistically.
And I think, culturalintelligence is potentially a
gateway to enhanced workerengagement that is a little bit
more real than a committee thatnobody talks at and only goes to
because there's a pizza on thetable, and some people that have
(26:18):
been through a training courseand have got a title to tick a
theoretical box that doesn'treally exist.
And I just think if weunderstood the different values
of all of these differentcultures that are working in our
organizations, and allow themthe opportunity to express those
values or be those people thenthe worker engagement piece
would be much, much better.
Jane (26:40):
Yeah, I think you're 100 percent right.
I think also, it's about clearcommunicated goals as well, like
the research showed that, like Isaid before, apart from a few
areas.
New Zealand and Filipino weresimilar and it was around having
the collaboration, clearcommunication good values.
(27:02):
So actually one of the storieswas, so Greg, if I work for you
and we're on a building site andwe have a disagreement during
the day.
So say I'm your foreman orwhatever and you turn up and you
disagree with how I've setsomething up and we might have a
little bit of a heateddiscussion about that.
We'll do that.
And then about an hour later,you'll say to me, Oh, are you
coming to the pub tonight?
And I'll be like yeah, I'll seeyou there.
(27:22):
And we'll go and we'll have adrink.
And it happens, but we're havinga drink.
Not so much for the Filipinoculture, like really hard to
earn trust, really easy to loseit.
And that was one of the examplesthat got shown.
They couldn't understand thatthey wanted to go to the pub
together.
When they'd had a heateddiscussion during the day, like
that just seemed really foreignto them.
So value based was prettyimportant, but that's the same.
(27:44):
Doesn't, again, a lot of thesethings, it doesn't actually
relate necessarily to migrantworkers.
It's just being a good boss.
But there was one other thingthat did come up about ensuring
the security of the workeraround for the Filipino workers
around saving face.
In Filipino culture, it was theydidn't want to be embarrassed
(28:06):
and so an employer who stood ina toolbox meeting and picked
them out, maybe wouldn't be agood boss for them.
And so then it was someone whocould do that in a way that
saved them face, which I thoughtwas quite important as well.
But really that collaboration,that collectivistic, was still
(28:28):
the underlying theme.
Greg (28:29):
And I think the important thing to understand too, if
you're thinking about thesecultural values, is also,
probably on the other end of thescale, don't get caught.
In the stereotype.
Because, just because we sithere and say, Filipino is this,
that, and the other Filipinoculture is, looks like this.
(28:51):
Yes it may be but actually thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
all people from that culture areon the same page, it's a
starting point.
To help you understand wherethings might go, but it doesn't
mean 100 percent of the peoplethat are of that culture are
actually apply those culturalvalues.
Jane (29:12):
100 percent and the longer they've been in New Zealand, the
less likely that was to be true.
So like I said the Filipina, theworker I spoke to who came here
as a pharmacist and a worker,compared to where he is today,
miles apart in terms of in termsof that.
And I think that's a really goodpoint for CQ, right?
you never get it.
(29:32):
You do some work and you learnsome stuff and you try and apply
it.
And I actually did apresentation on this, for NZISM
a couple of hours after theresearch, so probably about 18
months ago, and I said to themthe great thing about CQ is I
can guarantee you That you willinsult somebody because you're
trying to know better and you'retrying to apply what you've
(29:56):
learned and you're going to walkyourself into a trap not of any
other intention because youhaven't, because of the way
you've interpreted with yourworldview, because you've fallen
to exactly the comment you justmade, Greg, around I've done
this research, so it must betrue.
And you apply it wrongly oryou're going to you're going to
upset someone and.
(30:19):
I guess it's just the nature oflearning, it's how you reflect
on that but I think when you putyourself in this world where
you're trying to be more you'retrying to learn and you're
trying to do better you areprobably going to end up in a
position where you've said itthe wrong way or said the wrong
thing.
Greg (30:35):
I think we we talked quite in depth about that in episode
two with Chris Peace and heshared a couple of stories of
things that he'd got wrong.
In, in certain scenarios.
And look, absolutely, you'regoing to make a mistake.
You're absolutely right in termsof talking about reflection.
That's another piece of the CQpuzzle.
We know reflective practice iswhat the safety industry talks
(30:57):
about.
That's when we learn, when we goaway and think about how did
that go?
How can I do it better?
What did I learn?
What's going to be differentnext time?
So yeah, absolutely.
With all of that.
Can you believe we're almost attime or we probably are at time,
but I would like to wrap up oursession with, and I know you
said before, if you're notanswering everybody's questions,
(31:18):
then you haven't done your job,but I'm still going to put you
on the spot and ask you for acouple of tips that health and
safety professionals around NewZealand or maybe even around the
world might take on board ifthey've got Filipino workers in
their teams.
We know as you said before, inyour environment, Filipino
workers are are quite a highpercentage.
(31:41):
We know that people from thatpart of the world operate in the
agricultural space, in thehealthcare space, A couple of
tips that we can learn from interms of how to make that group
feel more inclusive in ourworkplaces.
Jane (31:57):
I knew you'd put me on the spot, Greg.
And I thought about this and Iwas like, it's going to put me
on the spot and I still haven'tcome up with something like
Miraculous.
But I guess I'll say just takethe time to go and talk to them
and learn about what's importantfor them.
Learn about, like religiousholidays might be really
(32:18):
important to some members ofyour team.
We make them celebrate Christmasand some cultures don't
celebrate Christmas, but we inNew Zealand are like it's
Christmas time.
So you shall, but actuallythere's another holiday that
might be more important.
Go and learn that.
Go and understand that and thensee, you should be flexible
(32:39):
enough in your organization andresilient enough to to make some
changes that help people under,to fit that stuff in.
So I guess that'd be my firsttip is just go and talk to them.
And I guess probably for healthand safety specifically I think
it would be about helping themunderstand why speaking up and
reporting is important.
(33:00):
And if they do that, help themunderstand what the outcome will
be.
Help them understand thatthere's no bad reaction if they
tell you that the scaffolding iswobbly there's no bad reaction
for that.
If they feel like their twowheeler is not working properly,
there's no reaction for that,except for those things being
(33:22):
fixed.
So yeah, those might, that wouldbe my two top tips is talk to
them and understand them andlearn about them and learn about
their culture.
I tell you, they make a greatfeast.
I've had some fantastic food.
From some of our Filipinofamily, which is they always
feed me actually.
Some of them always feed me whenI go, which is great because I
(33:43):
need feeding.
But food's obviously a reallybig part of that.
Learn that and enjoy it andembrace it.
And then from a health andsafety perspective, help them
understand why reporting andspeaking up is important and
what the outcomes from thatwould be.
Greg (33:59):
I think the other one that I'd add, and I've experienced
this and I think I've eventalked about it on this podcast
at times, is maybe just learnthe word for hello in your
language.
And we all run around and we,kia ora, but we're not always,
talking to just māori people,there's all these other cultures
and you probably only need tolearn two or three or obviously
(34:22):
the ones that are relevant foryour workplace.
And I've just I've just seenthat so many times over the last
few years where you learn theword and this big grin just
appears and it just, it seems tome like it makes people's days
when you recognize andacknowledge their language.
Jane (34:41):
Yeah, I know I say Kumusta to people when I do that, and
it's just, yeah, they do, theyget a big smile because they're
like, oh.
It's cool.
That's why, I think that's whyfor me, when I'm speaking to our
new members and say Bahalana,equally that same big grin,
because they're like, how doesshe know that?
How does a Pākehā woman from NewZealand know know our term?
(35:02):
They just think it's hilarious.
I guess that's just part of thatsame, for me, that's that same
comment, get to know them.
Doesn't matter if it's Filipinoor South American, but, the same
thing can be applied.
And it's a pretty easy thing todo.
And then if it's not right,they'll quickly tell you.
Greg (35:15):
Yeah.
Hey, Jane.
Awesome, as always, to catch upand have a chat.
Really enjoyed the discussionand Yeah some great gems and I
know that the whole culturalintelligence concept is gaining
a little bit of momentum, and Ithink you've been part of that
and still a long way to go, butgreat to have a chat about that,
(35:36):
and thanks for putting some timeaside to participate.
Jane (35:40):
Thank you for having me Greg.
It's been great.
I always love having a good chatwith you and yeah, it was great.
Thanks very much.
Greg (35:47):
It was great to hear Jane talk about what she had learned
about cultural intelligenceduring her studies.
her willingness to listen tosome of the stories and
perspectives from the Filipinoworkers has lead to the creation
of a trusting relationship wheretheir perspectives were able to
be shared.
Many of the comments she madereally showed a depth of
(36:08):
understanding, not only haveparticular cultural values held
by the different cultures butalso in this case, how those
values showed up in Filipinoculture and how someone not from
that culture might learn how tobe curious about those values
and what response might beappropriate.
(36:30):
Jane covered off on culturalvalues, such as collectivism and
power distance and describedreally well how those values
actually show up for people in aworkplace setting.
How many workers in yourorganization are there, who
might not be able to refusedangerous work because of their
preference for high powerdistance.
(36:51):
As for Jane's advice for healthand safety professionals.
She talked about just getting toknow workers who are different
from you or different from themajority.
Understand their perspectivesand needs and then work towards
ways that some of those needscan be integrated in your
approach to managing health andsafety.
(37:11):
Janes other piece of advice wasto really work hard to provide
practical reasons as to whyreporting is a positive step to
take and what the worker mightexperience as a result.
Sometimes companies might notactually have a blame culture
but there can be a perception ofone so prove that perception
(37:32):
wrong and appreciate everysituation that has reported.
It's a learning opportunity.
We've come to the end of thisepisode thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
(37:53):
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates, if we aren't
connected send me an invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
(38:17):
to this podcast I'd reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
I'm going to be taking a bit ofa break from releasing episodes
for a couple of weeks.
I have some really outstandingguests joining me in the few
weeks in the future.
The next episode will bereleased on the 28th of May
(38:37):
where I'm joined by Mike Styles.
Mike has worked in the field ofdyslexia for more than 20 years.
He's had a career as a secondaryschool teacher and delivered
adult community education in hisarea of specialism, which is
horticulture.
Mike now works to improveoutcomes for people with
dyslexia.
This promises to be afascinating discussion.
(39:00):
Thanks again for tuning into theCultural Intelligent Safety
Professional, Ka Kitei
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