This week I chat with Mike Styles and explore more in the world of neurodiversity, this time again we focus on dyslexia. Mike has been working in this area for 20 years and comes with a wealth of knowledge about the experiences of dyslexic people. We cover what dyslexia is and the various other forms of brain wiring linked to this particular form of neurodiversity.
We discuss the tech available to assist people to become more included in society and explore a story about golf, you will need to listen to the episode to connect the dots with dyslexia
Mike discusses future plans to expand some of his educational offerings into the workplace, something really relevant to those working in health and safety, Mike challenges us to really think about how we present information to our workers a percentage of whom may well be dyslexic.
Check out the resources to help you become more aware of the dyslexic world.
https://ako.ac.nz/Search/?term=dyslexia
The dyslexia Friendly Style Guide
https://ako.ac.nz/knowledge-centre/dyslexia-resources/dyslexia-friendly-style-guide/
Mike Styles Book – “Congratulations you have dyslexia – Great Minds Think Differently” available by emailing Mike @ mike.styles@dyslexia-consulting.com
The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional - Episodes released weekly.
#connection #engagement #value #culturalintelligence
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
culturally intelligence safetyprofessional a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So today I'm really excited.
I'm talking to Mike Styles, Mikehas been working in the field of
dyslexia for more than 20 years.
He's had a career as a secondaryschool teacher, and he's
delivered adult communityeducation in his area of
(01:26):
specialty, which ishorticulture.
Mike now works to improveoutcomes for people with
dyslexia.
Welcome, Mike.
I'm truly honoured to have youas a guest on the show.
Mike (01:38):
Thank you, Greg.
I'm delighted to be here.
Greg (01:40):
Obviously, really keen to talk about your work in
dyslexia, but before we do that,I'm really interested in maybe
just a bit of a story about howyou came to be in the position
you are today and what broughtyou here.
Mike (01:59):
Yeah, thanks, Greg.
Someone as old as me, of course,there's been many steps along
the way, so I was in secondaryeducation for some time, and
then I wanted a change, so Imoved into tertiary education in
the area of adults with lowliteracy and numeracy, which is
a related but separate and veryserious issue for New Zealand.
(02:23):
And it's pretty much true forthe rest of the OECD as well.
But I worked in that field for awhile and then I moved into a
job with the Primary IndustryTraining Organisation, and I
quickly realised that many ofthe literacy and numeracy
problems there were down toundiagnosed and unsupported
(02:45):
dyslexia.
And so I was able to lead someinteresting projects inside the
primary ITO.
We developed a wraparoundsupport package.
I was then fortunate enough toconduct some research projects
around that, and then even morefortuitously, I got to present
(03:06):
the findings of those researchprojects at various conferences
around the world, at which Ilearned a hell of a lot more
about neurodiversity dyslexia.
In the process, ironically,Greg, I discovered once I became
to be more aware about dyslexia,that both my father and my
(03:27):
brother were seriously dyslexicNow ironically, in education, of
course, in compulsory education,there's nothing really being
taught to teachers aroundneurodiversity dyslexia, which
is a little bit sad given thatwe are talking about minimum 10,
maybe up to 20 percent of thepopulation.
Greg (03:49):
It's a big number, isn't it?
So I guess you've learned a lotaround the world about
neurodiversity and dyslexia.
And I guess I'm given that thatthis episode is focused on
dyslexia.
I think it would be reallyinteresting to hear about the
experiences from as I put it,owners of neurodiverse brains
(04:11):
and this is of course in thearea of dyslexia and can you
tell us a little bit about whatit is and how it presents itself
in people?
Mike (04:20):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
So all brains are different.
Even the brain, by the way, ofidentical twins differs a little
bit.
But within the normalpopulation, brains that vary
significantly, we call themneurodivergent or neurodiverse
brains, and with respect todyslexia, the dyslexic brain is
(04:45):
wired differently to a regularbrain.
And I think the exciting part ofthe dyslexia story is that
different wiring in the brainthat produces the
characteristics of dyslexia alsoproduces a whole lot of exciting
(05:05):
different skills.
But coming back to the kind ofthe challenges of dyslexia, it's
a challenge with reading,writing and spelling.
And but it's not to do withintelligence.
Now, Many people think it's todo with intelligence.
It's not.
Many people with dyslexiastruggle in the school setting.
(05:26):
And they, their teachers, andsometimes their parents are
forced into the conclusion thattheir little Johnny is a little
bit slow or can I crudely saythick and stupid?
They aren't, of course.
They are just wired differentlyand they find The whole
acquisition of literacy skillsvery difficult.
In particular, spelling.
(05:48):
Now, with a lot of persistence,somebody with dyslexia can get
to be a moderately good reader,but the writing and spelling
thing will, in almost everyinstance, remain an ongoing
problem.
Greg (06:04):
Okay and as I understand it, there are various other
related I don't know what theright appropriate word is.
I was going to say conditions,but I don't want to use that
word, but I'm not sure what thealternative is.
Mike (06:16):
I think that word conditions is fine.
So dyslexia is the biggie,that's difficulty with words.
There is a related conditioncalled dyscalculia, which is
extreme difficulty with numbers.
That's a little bit more thanstruggling to divide up the bill
at the end of a restaurant meal.
(06:37):
It's much more complicated thanthat.
ADD and ADHD are part of thatfamily.
Autism Spectrum Disorder,Tourette's is part of that list,
and Autism Spectrum Disorder andDyspraxia.
So there's quite a family ofconditions, but by far and away
Dyslexia is the biggest, is themost frequent and common.
(07:01):
But you can't have more thanone, that's another challenge.
So many people with Dyslexiaalso have ADHD, or maybe another
condition called Irlen Syndrome,which has got to do with visual
perception.
Greg (07:15):
That was the one that fascinated me when when we met
back in October last year andyou talked about Irlens and how
it seems that there's quite asimple solution to helping
people that have got thatcondition.
And as you presented, it was allaround the colour of the paper
(07:35):
that words are printed on.
And it was just, it was a bit ofa wow factor to understand that
people with this conditionstruggle to read black text on
white paper, which is what, 99.
9 percent of content is writtenon and simply by changing the
color of the paper, maybe therecan be some assistance there.
Mike (07:56):
Yes very big changes because, and as you said, black
and white are the two mostcontrasting colors, and that's
what people with Irlens strugglewith, is highly contrasting
colors.
It's added to, of course, bydensely packed text, small font,
densely packed.
It's also added to by thingslike fluorescent lighting.
(08:19):
And some LED lighting makes iteven worse.
It's sometimes referred to asvisual stress because it, it
gives the person with it quitea, oftentimes quite serious
headaches or makes themincredibly tired.
Greg (08:35):
As I say, we met back in October last year at an intimate
little gathering at the LevinLibrary where you were launching
your book, and we'll come backto the book a little bit later
and one of the things that youmentioned in the book launch,
which I know you've got a verypassionate view about was that
we seem to be quite well behindin New Zealand in terms of
recognition of dyslexia and thatactually the Ministry of
(08:58):
Education didn't recognisedyslexia until 2007 in this day
and age, how can that possiblybe?
Mike (09:09):
Yeah, so it's a really sad story.
You're right, they didn't.
Sadly, they've done very littlesince.
For example, young teacherscoming out of teachers colleges
of education still get nospecific instruction on a
condition that impacts on thatmany people.
But their background story isreally two fold.
(09:31):
One, of course, what doesn'texist you don't have to fund so
that was a convenient kind ofcivil servant perspective.
But the other one was that therewas another initiative to help
people with literacy skillscalled Reading Recovery in
Schools.
And the leader of that programconvinced the ministry that she
could solve all literacyproblems with reading recovery.
(09:55):
But the important thing is,Greg, that while dyslexia shows
initially as a reading issue,it's actually much wider, there
are many non literacy featuresto dyslexia.
And if you just see it throughthe lens of a literacy deficit,
(10:19):
you're only really seeing halfof the condition.
Greg (10:23):
Interesting, and just, to reflect on some of the stuff
you've talked about on thispodcast a couple of weeks ago I
released an episode where Iinterviewed a health and safety
professional a guy by the nameof Tom Jones who resides in
Wellington and works inconstruction.
And he's a dyslexic person.
And he's.
(10:43):
been through the universitysystem I think in the UK
actually, but came out with adegree in media and
communications, I think it wasand I guess he had realized,
early on that, that the dyslexiasort of opened up what was his
creative brain.
And he has also subsequently gotinto the health and safety space
(11:07):
and is trying to, use thatcreativity to different effects
in terms of what typically mighthappen in the health and safety
world.
But one of the other thingsthat, that he said that struck a
chord with me was when he wasgrowing up, he still struggles
to not refer to himself as beingspecial needs.
(11:29):
He was a special needs this andhe needed a special needs
teacher and a special needssupport person, which is really,
unfortunate and I guess that'sthe impact on psychosocial,
psychological impacts on havingthat feeling.
And as you said whether peopledon't feel like they're maybe as
clever as as everybody else orthey're a bit slow.
Mike (11:51):
Yes.
So a couple of things, first ofall, Everyone's heard of PTSD.
There is a condition called posteducation stress disorder that's
had university research paperson it.
And basically what it's sayingis that many people's school
experiences were so traumatic.
(12:12):
That it's left a lastingimpression on them.
And I've talked to people who'vegone on to succeed in tertiary
study, but still have, get abreak out into a cold sweat when
they talk about their primaryand secondary education.
But here's another ridiculoussituation, Greg.
Support in primary schools forchildren with dyslexia is very
(12:34):
small, secondary schools, it'svery small.
But if people are able tosurvive primary and secondary
education, the support intertiary education, which
probably explains your colleaguein the health and safety
industry, the support is muchbetter in the tertiary sector.
So if there's any parents outthere, the encouraging thing I
(12:55):
always say is actually, if youcan hang in there, then things
do get better.
Sadly, however, a large numberof people don't hang in there,
they drop out by the wayside anddrop out of school early.
And that's a sad thing and it'sa ridiculous waste of human
resource.
Greg (13:14):
Absolutely.
Wanted to move on a little bitand and talk a little bit about
a section in your book where youtalk about a chap by the name of
Bob Charles or Sir Bob Charles.
Sir.
Bob Charles now?
Yes.
Yes.
And and.
Look, many people in New Zealandmay be familiar with the name.
If there's any people fromoverseas, you may not be
(13:36):
familiar with the name unlessyou're a golfing tragic, yes,
that's right.
So Sir Bob Charles as many willknow was a champion New Zealand
golfer.
And I didn't realize until Iread the book, actually, he was
actually predominantly righthanded, but played golf Left
handed.
Mike (13:52):
Yes.
And that's true by the way,Greg, of many people who have
varying degrees ofambidextrousness.
So that if something's righthanded and something's left, but
in his case, the point I made inthe book was, I think is a very
compelling one is that when BobCharles tried to play golf, the
(14:12):
only way he could play was withleft handed golf clubs.
That's just the way it works.
Now, nobody said to Bob, andlisten here, Bob, if you're
going to play golf, you playright handed or not at all.
His difference, in his case,being left handed was
accommodated.
He was given left handed clubsand he went on to be very
(14:34):
successful.
I suppose my plea Is that for inthe education world, but also in
the world of work, we make thesame accommodations and make
available assistive technologiesfor people with dyslexia and
those other neurodiverseconditions in the same way.
(14:54):
We don't call Bob Charlesdisabled because he can't play
golf with right handed golfclubs.
We say he's a left hander andthat's the sort of mindset.
Dyslexia struggles a lot withmindset.
People getting fixed mindsets intheir mind like, Oh, this guy
can't spell, therefore he mustbe ignorant or whatever, and
(15:17):
subconsciously, this mindsetpermeates all of us to one
degree or another.
Greg (15:21):
Yeah, I guess though, back in the day, and I don't know
which day it was possibly as Iwas going through school,
certainly some left handed kids.
back then were even disciplined,for not writing with their right
hand and wrapped over theknuckles with the wooden ruler
and and told to, to, adjusttheir behavior, but obviously
(15:43):
that change in left handed,right handed, I don't know, even
nowadays, it's not even really,Certainly it's not a thing that
I see out in the workplace asbeing something that people are
marginalized for being lefthanded, as they might have been
40 years ago.
And I guess that's what you'resaying is, In some ways, left
(16:05):
handed, right handed, dyslexicor not dyslexic were treated
differently.
And the dyslexic side of theargument is still, in some ways,
still treated differently fromeverybody else.
Point you are making is one ofinclusivity and belonging.
And it's a sort of a term that'sgaining momentum around the
(16:29):
world.
This, you can now get a job as adiverse or a DEI practitioner,
diversity, equity, and inclusionor various forms of that
acronym.
And so we're saying if, if youare dyslexic, it's just a
different way of thinking.
I think even the neurodiverseword is some people I've seen on
(16:50):
social medias that, that mightbe, identified in that space
saying that word is evenpointing out difference.
Mike (17:01):
Yeah so the name, the whole naming and names around
technology is, around dyslexiais very sad.
Of course, the word dis refersto difficulty with.
And there's been a pushbackaround that over time, and I
think we've got a wee bit ofprogress to make around the
language around this.
(17:22):
I'd like to think of whateverterm we use for it, that it's
effectively the last frontier ofInclusiveness to break down.
So we've made great strides onracial, gender, and sexual
orientation inclusiveness.
You've only got to look at aemail from a, anyone from a
(17:44):
government agency and they'llsign off their name at the
bottom and they'll put after ittheir pronouns and that's all
fine, but we haven't yet madethe same amount of progress with
regards to neurodiversity.
It's the Cinderella of thediversities.
Greg (17:59):
It's interesting.
You're probably the thirdpodcast episode that I've
recorded.
In the area of neurodiversity, Iinterviewed a young lady right
at the beginning who I think wasADHD my colleague who was, is
dyslexic and they've been reallypopular episodes in terms of
(18:20):
downloads, etc.
I think there's a lot beingdone, particularly probably in
bigger corporates that have gotthe resources that they, I guess
they are working on their ESGagenda, with S being the social
piece where they're working ondiversity and inclusion and all
(18:41):
of those sorts of things.
But yeah, I think there's stilla long way to go before
everybody's just seen as anotherperson.
Rather than a person with.
Mike (18:50):
Yes.
And you're right.
Slowly, but surely lots ofcorporates are coming into the
space and saying, yes, there'ssomething we need to do here
because we've discovered that,for example, with people with
autism spectrum disorder,they're often 50 percent more
productive in the workplace thanregular folks.
So these people are very skilledand talented.
(19:13):
And right now, many of themhaven't even been able to get
into the workplace in the firstplace.
Greg (19:18):
Absolutely, I want to talk about a few things.
Now if we, so we've learned abit about dyslexia and what it
looks like in New Zealand.
Talk to me about three things.
The technology that's availableto help people with their
condition.
Mike (19:33):
Yep.
So the first thing, thetechnology is actually the very
exciting part of the dyslexiastory.
There's an amazing amount oftechnology, some of it
inexpensive, some of it evenfree, and it goes in price from
zero dollars to maybe a thousanddollars.
But can I put the price of thetechnology into context here?
(19:56):
So some of the technology mightbe 300 or 400 or maybe a little
bit more than that.
But if, in fact, Someoneaccessing that technology makes
a difference to how productivethey are.
I'm going to say it's probablyquite a worthwhile investment.
So in a different space, forexample, there are many young.
(20:20):
Apprentices just trying tofinish their apprenticeship
training can't pass theregistration exam because they
have undiagnosed and unsupporteddyslexia.
And that puts a glass, whetherit's a glass ceiling or whatever
kind of ceiling it is, puts aceiling on their productive
capacity, their ability to earnbigger dollars, their ability to
(20:41):
be fully productive for theiremployer, etc.
With the permission to sit theirexam slightly different way, or
maybe with some assistivetechnologies can literally open
up their income to be increasedby thousands of dollars per year
and therefore potentiallyhundreds of thousands of dollars
over a lifetime.
The technology, as I said,varies in price from very
(21:04):
inexpensive to from apps on yourphone through to things like a
reading pen that reads for youthrough to other tools that you
can put on your laptop and theysit in the background there and
help you with spelling, withreading, with writing text and
everything else.
(21:24):
So all those bits of technologyserve to level the playing field
enormously and I think they arean exciting part.
Have to say to you, an oldbugger like myself, however, I
struggle with some of thetechnology, but even I've
managed to adapt quite a bit ofit.
Greg (21:40):
You were quite adept at showing us how it worked a few
months ago with with some ofthose smart pens and smart
readers and the dot paper andall of these things, which, I
had really no idea about.
The, you talked about the factthat one of the Difficulties
that some people can have iswriting and listening to a
(22:01):
lecture at the same time.
So there was technology withthat dot paper and the pen to
effectively record the sessionand then have it.
read back to you later when youget home so that you can maybe
take some time to do it a bitslowly if that's what you needed
to do.
Mike (22:19):
Yes, and the other thing is we know that people with
dyslexia are not short of ideas.
The ideas are percolating aroundin their head, but sometimes
they struggle to, Get thoseideas into text form.
And there are other bits oftechnology that help with that,
which are very exciting, Ithink.
And the exciting part abouttechnology is one, that it's
getting cheaper all the time.
But secondly, new bits are beingadded all the time.
(22:41):
It's a, there's a worldwideburst to make a difference for
this 10 percent of thepopulation.
Greg (22:48):
And clearly apps are probably pretty, easy to access,
but what about the other tech?
Is it pretty, pretty accessiblein terms of you can go to
Whitcoulls or online orwhatever?
Mike (22:57):
There's a place in Palmerston North called
Assistive Technologies.
So if anyone was to GoogleAssistive Technologies they
supply almost all of this to theNew Zealand economy.
It's not just for neurodiversepeople, they provide it for all
sorts of other people who needvarious kinds of assistance in
order for them to functionfully.
(23:18):
They don't sell wheelchairs, butthey sell the kind of digital
stuff that goes on your computeror Hearing devices, I think.
Greg (23:27):
Yeah great okay.
We might put a link to that onthe show notes.
So the other thing I want to geta comment from you on is the
connection, if that's the rightword, to te reo.
And you talk about this in yourbook, I think, about, te reo and
dyslexia and the connectionthere.
Do you want to share that?
Mike (23:43):
So a number of points, Greg.
The first one is te reo is amuch easier language to master.
In its written and spelled form,there's an English, because of
course, Te Reo follows therules.
English is the ultimate mongrelbits of language ever invented,
(24:04):
it's my only language, I love itto bits but it's a mongrel
thing.
There are so manycontradictions, there are so
many words spelt in ridiculousways, and it goes on and on.
Whereas Te Reo, it follows therules.
Now that's one exciting thing.
There's a couple of other thingsthat I think are pretty
(24:25):
exciting.
One, I'm working with a kuraKaupapa Total Immersion School
over in the Wairarapa, todevelop a screening tool to
identify dyslexia.
But written in te reo, the otherinteresting thing I think has
happened quite recently is thatNgāi Tahu, the iwi down in the
South Island, they are providingfrom their own hard won treaty
(24:47):
funds a full blown diagnosis forany Ngāi Tahu children with
dyslexia.
They provide a full blowndiagnosis and provide follow up
tutoring for them.
So they are doing what the NewZealand government isn't, but
should be doing.
Greg (25:04):
And the last point I wanted you to talk about out of
these sort of three areas you'vebeen associated with this
dyslexia friendly qualmark and,I guess health and safety people
will be familiar with this typeof thing.
They've been used for varioushealth and safety approaches
where, organizations can gothrough an auditing process and
(25:25):
get a a badge of honor, to saywe've achieved ABC there's also
one that was created a few yearsago in the accessibility space.
So people that are morephysically challenged than
others to get in and out ofbuildings and the like.
And so you were associated withthis dyslexia friendly qualmark.
Can you tell us about that?
Mike (25:45):
Yes when I developed, I brought the idea back from the
UK and we've developed a NewZealand version of it.
And one of the people I soughtadvice from at the start was the
SiteSafe Qual here in NewZealand, and there's another one
called Qualmark, which is usedin the hospitality tourism
sector.
(26:05):
Anyway, the Qualmark Ironically,at this moment in time, applies
only to tertiary educationinstitutions and other adjacent
organizations who deal withyoung people of that age.
But it's a set of 27 standardsof best practice, it's holistic,
(26:27):
it covers all the facets of anorganization from board level
through to senior management,through to budgeting, through to
practitioner level, and veryimportantly, the way you write
documents, because the way thatdocuments are written is a very
powerful thing, and I'd like tocome back to this in a moment,
but quite a few tertiaryeducation institutions in New
(26:49):
Zealand have been awarded theQualmark.
You've got to jump through a fewhurdles but quite a few big
players in New Zealand have gotit, and many more are signing up
to it.
Now, it seems really stupid,like a lot of other things, that
this is limited to the tertiarysector, where it really should
be in primary and secondaryschools.
(27:11):
We've just received a bit offunding recently to extend it
down into secondary schools, andthere's another project underway
to extend it into the workplace.
Because of course dyslexiadoesn't finish when you finish
school.
It's a lifetime condition andthere's a lot of productivity
loss.
(27:31):
There's a lot of health andsafety risk, ecetera, around
undiagnosed and unsupporteddyslexic people in the
workplace.
So there's a move afoot toextend it into the workplace.
And I've given manypresentations to workplaces
around New Zealand on that, andI'm keen to do more because once
(27:53):
again, it's a bit of a mindsetchange.
Greg (27:56):
That's really exciting to hear that you've got some
funding and you're able to lookat extending it.
And the workplace, and I guessthis is getting to the nub of
this podcast is what can healthand safety people do?
We're known for being sometimesthe creators of pages and pages
of documents on, I don't know,how to hit a hammer with a nail
(28:19):
or nail with a hammer orwhatever.
How to do a job and, there's allof these procedures and
protocols and different acronymsthat we use.
What can safety people do reallypractically to I guess, make
sure that any dyslexic people intheir audience might be more
(28:43):
inclusive or might be included alittle bit more.
Mike (28:47):
Good.
Very good question.
This is something I'm verypassionate about, Greg.
First of all, somebody withdyslexia, almost certainly.
Won't be able to read a lot ofthe health and safety
documentation and therefore, bydefinition, they're not safe.
Now, there are good ways to makea difference.
(29:09):
First of all, look not just atthe content of what you've
written, but look at the fontsize, the font type, the
background color of the paper onwhich you write it.
All that stuff and there isguidance out there and I can
send you a document at the endof that guidance because we've
(29:32):
learned in the last decade ortwo that many of the challenges
faced by neurodiverse dyslexicpeople in reading stuff is as
much the fault of the writer asit is of the reader.
So font type makes a bigdifference.
Lots of densely packed font is aproblem.
(29:55):
So that's, so spreading out yourtext a bit.
I know that's a bit of achallenge here because if you
spread out the text, you changethe document from being one inch
thick to two inches thick.
I completely understand that,but sometimes less is more.
But the other big way to make animprovement is if your documents
(30:16):
are online, you can.
And the reader has access tocomputer functions like Read
Aloud.
They can be, and should be,encouraged to use those
functions to have the text readto them.
And another thing to thinkabout, and this is increasingly
(30:40):
a thing overseas, although notmuch in New Zealand yet, and
that is on the website, thatthere are accessibility features
on the website to, change theweb change the font size, change
the font type, change thebackground color, have the stuff
(31:00):
read aloud, has stuff read aloudfrom the website so that it's
there as a function on thewebsite.
Now I know there's some costattached to that, but I think
it's probably better than havingdyslexic people being severely
compromised.
The other thing is, when youprovide documentation, find an
(31:22):
opportunity to present it inoral form combined with written
form.
So they should hear it as wellas see it.
So each one will reinforce theother.
Greg (31:36):
Now that's useful and super helpful and my man from
Wellington, talked about, peoplewith dyslexia being more visual
and creative learners andshowing people how to do things,
having them physically do thetask, rather than saying, Here's
a document.
It's 50 pages long.
(31:56):
Once you've read it, sign thisbit of paper and tell us that
you have read and understood it.
It's a pointless waste of time.
For probably more people thanjust the dyslexic audience.
So that's interesting.
And One of the other things thatyou said reminded me of a
webinar that the New ZealandInstitute of Safety Management
ran a few years ago when the oldCovid hit the ground running.
(32:19):
And it was a lady by the nameof, Miraka Davies, and she runs
a company called The School ofUnprofessional Writing, and she
talks about blaming, I guess theeducation sector and the legal
fraternity for the.
I'll use the word disappointing,she might use a different word,
(32:41):
the disappointing way we writenow and she says one of the key
things to do is introduce yourwriting brain to your reading
brain and, yeah so people writestuff generally for themselves
without thinking about theaudience.
And the audience is more thanjust somebody who's like them.
There's all sorts out there.
Mike (33:03):
Yes, very much and things that can help dyslexic learners
is pictograms, diagrams, charts,and information presented in a
different way than just blocksof text.
So at least think about breakingdown key points into bullet
points is a good idea.
(33:24):
Less is more.
Give people an opportunity totalk about it.
Don't just assume.
And this applies to more thanjust folk with dyslexia.
Don't just assume that becauseyou've given them the document
that they've read it.
How many times have most peopleseen a long, dense document and
said, Too long, won't read.
Greg (33:46):
Yeah, correct.
Hey, just as we finish I'vementioned it a few times, your
book, I've got a copy of itright here I know it's not the
type of book you can just jumpon to Amazon and get a copy of.
Do you want to tell us a bit, alittle bit about how to get
that?
It's called Congratulations, youhave dyslexia.
Great minds think differently.
(34:07):
How can we get a copy?
Mike (34:08):
That's a good question.
You can email me.
It's available in somebookshops.
It was available in Unity Booksin Wellington.
It's available there's a littlebookshop in Otaki that sells it.
I haven't put it through themain bookshops because they're
not very keen on self publishedbooks.
(34:29):
But if anyone emails me, theycan get a copy, then the name of
the book, by the way, is veryimportant in that there is a
terrible deficit mindset and adeficit thinking around
dyslexia.
And I.
The aim of the book was actuallyto put a positive spin on
dyslexia.
(34:50):
And the second part of the bookis, of the title is really
important.
So there used to be a mantra inthe in the world of work that
great minds think the same.
I'm going to say that isabsolutely bullshit.
Excuse my coarse language.
The really great minds are theminds that think differently.
(35:11):
So Bill Gates, Steve Jobs,Richard Branson, these are all
highly dyslexic people.
John Britton of the BritainMotorcycle, Richard Tate,
workshops.
Yep.
Yep.
All these people are people whohave been successful, not
because they think the same, butbecause they think differently.
And that's, I think what we needto do in the workplace.
(35:33):
The big players in thecommercial world, places like
the Boston Consulting Group andothers are realizing that
actually missing the skills andtalents of dyslexic people is a
big waste, not only from ahealth and safety perspective,
but for more broadly a humanresource perspective.
Greg (35:51):
Absolutely.
So I'll put a I'll put youremail address in the show notes.
I'll put your website on theshow notes.
I'll put you said you would sendme the guidance document.
Yes, I'll do that.
And is there a website for thequal mark?
Yes, it will be Ako Aotearoa.
Okay.
I'll send that to you as well Sowe'll put all of those things on
(36:14):
there.
If anybody wants to get in touchthey can use your email address.
But it's really been an awesomechat Mike, and really appreciate
you putting some time aside toto talk to me and I'm sure.
That this episode will will getout into the social media world
and will be a very valuableresource for people in
(36:37):
workplaces.
Hopefully more than justworkplaces, but this is this is
where we're aiming our audience.
So in workplaces and in thesafety field yeah, really
appreciate your time, Mike.
Mike (36:47):
Great to talk to you, Greg.
Thanks for the chance.
Cheers.
Greg (36:53):
What a valuable discussion it was great to hear someone who
really understands the depth andbreadth of dyslexia and the
impacts it has on those who areowners of brains wired to this
particular form ofneuro-diversity.
There's so much to unpack inthis conversation including
getting to understand the techthat is available to people to
(37:15):
become more included in society.
It's exciting to to hear Mike'sfuture plans to expand his
education offerings into theworkplace something really
relevant to those working inhealth and safety.
I encourage all of the listenersto take on Mike's challenge to
really think about how wepresent information to our
workers.
(37:35):
A percentage of whom may well bedyslexic.
I loved the analogy Mike gaveabout Sir Bob Charles and how
being left-handed didn't createa barrier for the golfer as
society broke that barrier downand created the left-handed golf
club.
What can we do to break down thebarriers for the neurodiverse
(37:56):
community?
So I've come to the end of thisepisode.
Thanks so much for listening, Ihope you found something
valuable that you can take awaythat might enhance your cultural
intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and as Mike talked about,there'll be some other resources
(38:17):
available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
(38:38):
to this podcast I would reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next episode's guest is DeborahRhodes, Deborahs a rural
advocate and dairy farm owner.
She's doing some pioneering andgroundbreaking research on
health and safety in the dairyindustry.
Her Masters pilot study in 2023championed safety climate as a
(39:03):
lead measurable indicator ofwork, group safety perceptions,
and New Zealand industry.
She is now undertaking a PhD toaddress critical gaps using
innovative methodology to shedlight on work, relationships and
safety challenges.
Thanks for tuning into theCulturally Intelligent Safety
Professional, Ka Kitei.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
culturally intelligence safetyprofessional a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So today I'm really excited.
I'm talking to Mike Styles, Mikehas been working in the field of
dyslexia for more than 20 years.
He's had a career as a secondaryschool teacher, and he's
delivered adult communityeducation in his area of
(01:26):
specialty, which ishorticulture.
Mike now works to improveoutcomes for people with
dyslexia.
Welcome, Mike.
I'm truly honoured to have youas a guest on the show.
Mike (01:38):
Thank you, Greg.
I'm delighted to be here.
Greg (01:40):
Obviously, really keen to talk about your work in
dyslexia, but before we do that,I'm really interested in maybe
just a bit of a story about howyou came to be in the position
you are today and what broughtyou here.
Mike (01:59):
Yeah, thanks, Greg.
Someone as old as me, of course,there's been many steps along
the way, so I was in secondaryeducation for some time, and
then I wanted a change, so Imoved into tertiary education in
the area of adults with lowliteracy and numeracy, which is
a related but separate and veryserious issue for New Zealand.
(02:23):
And it's pretty much true forthe rest of the OECD as well.
But I worked in that field for awhile and then I moved into a
job with the Primary IndustryTraining Organisation, and I
quickly realised that many ofthe literacy and numeracy
problems there were down toundiagnosed and unsupported
(02:45):
dyslexia.
And so I was able to lead someinteresting projects inside the
primary ITO.
We developed a wraparoundsupport package.
I was then fortunate enough toconduct some research projects
around that, and then even morefortuitously, I got to present
(03:06):
the findings of those researchprojects at various conferences
around the world, at which Ilearned a hell of a lot more
about neurodiversity dyslexia.
In the process, ironically,Greg, I discovered once I became
to be more aware about dyslexia,that both my father and my
(03:27):
brother were seriously dyslexicNow ironically, in education, of
course, in compulsory education,there's nothing really being
taught to teachers aroundneurodiversity dyslexia, which
is a little bit sad given thatwe are talking about minimum 10,
maybe up to 20 percent of thepopulation.
Greg (03:49):
It's a big number, isn't it?
So I guess you've learned a lotaround the world about
neurodiversity and dyslexia.
And I guess I'm given that thatthis episode is focused on
dyslexia.
I think it would be reallyinteresting to hear about the
experiences from as I put it,owners of neurodiverse brains
(04:11):
and this is of course in thearea of dyslexia and can you
tell us a little bit about whatit is and how it presents itself
in people?
Mike (04:20):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
So all brains are different.
Even the brain, by the way, ofidentical twins differs a little
bit.
But within the normalpopulation, brains that vary
significantly, we call themneurodivergent or neurodiverse
brains, and with respect todyslexia, the dyslexic brain is
(04:45):
wired differently to a regularbrain.
And I think the exciting part ofthe dyslexia story is that
different wiring in the brainthat produces the
characteristics of dyslexia alsoproduces a whole lot of exciting
(05:05):
different skills.
But coming back to the kind ofthe challenges of dyslexia, it's
a challenge with reading,writing and spelling.
And but it's not to do withintelligence.
Now, Many people think it's todo with intelligence.
It's not.
Many people with dyslexiastruggle in the school setting.
(05:26):
And they, their teachers, andsometimes their parents are
forced into the conclusion thattheir little Johnny is a little
bit slow or can I crudely saythick and stupid?
They aren't, of course.
They are just wired differentlyand they find The whole
acquisition of literacy skillsvery difficult.
In particular, spelling.
(05:48):
Now, with a lot of persistence,somebody with dyslexia can get
to be a moderately good reader,but the writing and spelling
thing will, in almost everyinstance, remain an ongoing
problem.
Greg (06:04):
Okay and as I understand it, there are various other
related I don't know what theright appropriate word is.
I was going to say conditions,but I don't want to use that
word, but I'm not sure what thealternative is.
Mike (06:16):
I think that word conditions is fine.
So dyslexia is the biggie,that's difficulty with words.
There is a related conditioncalled dyscalculia, which is
extreme difficulty with numbers.
That's a little bit more thanstruggling to divide up the bill
at the end of a restaurant meal.
(06:37):
It's much more complicated thanthat.
ADD and ADHD are part of thatfamily.
Autism Spectrum Disorder,Tourette's is part of that list,
and Autism Spectrum Disorder andDyspraxia.
So there's quite a family ofconditions, but by far and away
Dyslexia is the biggest, is themost frequent and common.
(07:01):
But you can't have more thanone, that's another challenge.
So many people with Dyslexiaalso have ADHD, or maybe another
condition called Irlen Syndrome,which has got to do with visual
perception.
Greg (07:15):
That was the one that fascinated me when when we met
back in October last year andyou talked about Irlens and how
it seems that there's quite asimple solution to helping
people that have got thatcondition.
And as you presented, it was allaround the colour of the paper
(07:35):
that words are printed on.
And it was just, it was a bit ofa wow factor to understand that
people with this conditionstruggle to read black text on
white paper, which is what, 99.
9 percent of content is writtenon and simply by changing the
color of the paper, maybe therecan be some assistance there.
Mike (07:56):
Yes very big changes because, and as you said, black
and white are the two mostcontrasting colors, and that's
what people with Irlens strugglewith, is highly contrasting
colors.
It's added to, of course, bydensely packed text, small font,
densely packed.
It's also added to by thingslike fluorescent lighting.
(08:19):
And some LED lighting makes iteven worse.
It's sometimes referred to asvisual stress because it, it
gives the person with it quitea, oftentimes quite serious
headaches or makes themincredibly tired.
Greg (08:35):
As I say, we met back in October last year at an intimate
little gathering at the LevinLibrary where you were launching
your book, and we'll come backto the book a little bit later
and one of the things that youmentioned in the book launch,
which I know you've got a verypassionate view about was that
we seem to be quite well behindin New Zealand in terms of
recognition of dyslexia and thatactually the Ministry of
(08:58):
Education didn't recognisedyslexia until 2007 in this day
and age, how can that possiblybe?
Mike (09:09):
Yeah, so it's a really sad story.
You're right, they didn't.
Sadly, they've done very littlesince.
For example, young teacherscoming out of teachers colleges
of education still get nospecific instruction on a
condition that impacts on thatmany people.
But their background story isreally two fold.
(09:31):
One, of course, what doesn'texist you don't have to fund so
that was a convenient kind ofcivil servant perspective.
But the other one was that therewas another initiative to help
people with literacy skillscalled Reading Recovery in
Schools.
And the leader of that programconvinced the ministry that she
could solve all literacyproblems with reading recovery.
(09:55):
But the important thing is,Greg, that while dyslexia shows
initially as a reading issue,it's actually much wider, there
are many non literacy featuresto dyslexia.
And if you just see it throughthe lens of a literacy deficit,
(10:19):
you're only really seeing halfof the condition.
Greg (10:23):
Interesting, and just, to reflect on some of the stuff
you've talked about on thispodcast a couple of weeks ago I
released an episode where Iinterviewed a health and safety
professional a guy by the nameof Tom Jones who resides in
Wellington and works inconstruction.
And he's a dyslexic person.
And he's.
(10:43):
been through the universitysystem I think in the UK
actually, but came out with adegree in media and
communications, I think it wasand I guess he had realized,
early on that, that the dyslexiasort of opened up what was his
creative brain.
And he has also subsequently gotinto the health and safety space
(11:07):
and is trying to, use thatcreativity to different effects
in terms of what typically mighthappen in the health and safety
world.
But one of the other thingsthat, that he said that struck a
chord with me was when he wasgrowing up, he still struggles
to not refer to himself as beingspecial needs.
(11:29):
He was a special needs this andhe needed a special needs
teacher and a special needssupport person, which is really,
unfortunate and I guess that'sthe impact on psychosocial,
psychological impacts on havingthat feeling.
And as you said whether peopledon't feel like they're maybe as
clever as as everybody else orthey're a bit slow.
Mike (11:51):
Yes.
So a couple of things, first ofall, Everyone's heard of PTSD.
There is a condition called posteducation stress disorder that's
had university research paperson it.
And basically what it's sayingis that many people's school
experiences were so traumatic.
(12:12):
That it's left a lastingimpression on them.
And I've talked to people who'vegone on to succeed in tertiary
study, but still have, get abreak out into a cold sweat when
they talk about their primaryand secondary education.
But here's another ridiculoussituation, Greg.
Support in primary schools forchildren with dyslexia is very
(12:34):
small, secondary schools, it'svery small.
But if people are able tosurvive primary and secondary
education, the support intertiary education, which
probably explains your colleaguein the health and safety
industry, the support is muchbetter in the tertiary sector.
So if there's any parents outthere, the encouraging thing I
(12:55):
always say is actually, if youcan hang in there, then things
do get better.
Sadly, however, a large numberof people don't hang in there,
they drop out by the wayside anddrop out of school early.
And that's a sad thing and it'sa ridiculous waste of human
resource.
Greg (13:14):
Absolutely.
Wanted to move on a little bitand and talk a little bit about
a section in your book where youtalk about a chap by the name of
Bob Charles or Sir Bob Charles.
Sir.
Bob Charles now?
Yes.
Yes.
And and.
Look, many people in New Zealandmay be familiar with the name.
If there's any people fromoverseas, you may not be
(13:36):
familiar with the name unlessyou're a golfing tragic, yes,
that's right.
So Sir Bob Charles as many willknow was a champion New Zealand
golfer.
And I didn't realize until Iread the book, actually, he was
actually predominantly righthanded, but played golf Left
handed.
Mike (13:52):
Yes.
And that's true by the way,Greg, of many people who have
varying degrees ofambidextrousness.
So that if something's righthanded and something's left, but
in his case, the point I made inthe book was, I think is a very
compelling one is that when BobCharles tried to play golf, the
(14:12):
only way he could play was withleft handed golf clubs.
That's just the way it works.
Now, nobody said to Bob, andlisten here, Bob, if you're
going to play golf, you playright handed or not at all.
His difference, in his case,being left handed was
accommodated.
He was given left handed clubsand he went on to be very
(14:34):
successful.
I suppose my plea Is that for inthe education world, but also in
the world of work, we make thesame accommodations and make
available assistive technologiesfor people with dyslexia and
those other neurodiverseconditions in the same way.
(14:54):
We don't call Bob Charlesdisabled because he can't play
golf with right handed golfclubs.
We say he's a left hander andthat's the sort of mindset.
Dyslexia struggles a lot withmindset.
People getting fixed mindsets intheir mind like, Oh, this guy
can't spell, therefore he mustbe ignorant or whatever, and
(15:17):
subconsciously, this mindsetpermeates all of us to one
degree or another.
Greg (15:21):
Yeah, I guess though, back in the day, and I don't know
which day it was possibly as Iwas going through school,
certainly some left handed kids.
back then were even disciplined,for not writing with their right
hand and wrapped over theknuckles with the wooden ruler
and and told to, to, adjusttheir behavior, but obviously
(15:43):
that change in left handed,right handed, I don't know, even
nowadays, it's not even really,Certainly it's not a thing that
I see out in the workplace asbeing something that people are
marginalized for being lefthanded, as they might have been
40 years ago.
And I guess that's what you'resaying is, In some ways, left
(16:05):
handed, right handed, dyslexicor not dyslexic were treated
differently.
And the dyslexic side of theargument is still, in some ways,
still treated differently fromeverybody else.
Point you are making is one ofinclusivity and belonging.
And it's a sort of a term that'sgaining momentum around the
(16:29):
world.
This, you can now get a job as adiverse or a DEI practitioner,
diversity, equity, and inclusionor various forms of that
acronym.
And so we're saying if, if youare dyslexic, it's just a
different way of thinking.
I think even the neurodiverseword is some people I've seen on
(16:50):
social medias that, that mightbe, identified in that space
saying that word is evenpointing out difference.
Mike (17:01):
Yeah so the name, the whole naming and names around
technology is, around dyslexiais very sad.
Of course, the word dis refersto difficulty with.
And there's been a pushbackaround that over time, and I
think we've got a wee bit ofprogress to make around the
language around this.
(17:22):
I'd like to think of whateverterm we use for it, that it's
effectively the last frontier ofInclusiveness to break down.
So we've made great strides onracial, gender, and sexual
orientation inclusiveness.
You've only got to look at aemail from a, anyone from a
(17:44):
government agency and they'llsign off their name at the
bottom and they'll put after ittheir pronouns and that's all
fine, but we haven't yet madethe same amount of progress with
regards to neurodiversity.
It's the Cinderella of thediversities.
Greg (17:59):
It's interesting.
You're probably the thirdpodcast episode that I've
recorded.
In the area of neurodiversity, Iinterviewed a young lady right
at the beginning who I think wasADHD my colleague who was, is
dyslexic and they've been reallypopular episodes in terms of
(18:20):
downloads, etc.
I think there's a lot beingdone, particularly probably in
bigger corporates that have gotthe resources that they, I guess
they are working on their ESGagenda, with S being the social
piece where they're working ondiversity and inclusion and all
(18:41):
of those sorts of things.
But yeah, I think there's stilla long way to go before
everybody's just seen as anotherperson.
Rather than a person with.
Mike (18:50):
Yes.
And you're right.
Slowly, but surely lots ofcorporates are coming into the
space and saying, yes, there'ssomething we need to do here
because we've discovered that,for example, with people with
autism spectrum disorder,they're often 50 percent more
productive in the workplace thanregular folks.
So these people are very skilledand talented.
(19:13):
And right now, many of themhaven't even been able to get
into the workplace in the firstplace.
Greg (19:18):
Absolutely, I want to talk about a few things.
Now if we, so we've learned abit about dyslexia and what it
looks like in New Zealand.
Talk to me about three things.
The technology that's availableto help people with their
condition.
Mike (19:33):
Yep.
So the first thing, thetechnology is actually the very
exciting part of the dyslexiastory.
There's an amazing amount oftechnology, some of it
inexpensive, some of it evenfree, and it goes in price from
zero dollars to maybe a thousanddollars.
But can I put the price of thetechnology into context here?
(19:56):
So some of the technology mightbe 300 or 400 or maybe a little
bit more than that.
But if, in fact, Someoneaccessing that technology makes
a difference to how productivethey are.
I'm going to say it's probablyquite a worthwhile investment.
So in a different space, forexample, there are many young.
(20:20):
Apprentices just trying tofinish their apprenticeship
training can't pass theregistration exam because they
have undiagnosed and unsupporteddyslexia.
And that puts a glass, whetherit's a glass ceiling or whatever
kind of ceiling it is, puts aceiling on their productive
capacity, their ability to earnbigger dollars, their ability to
(20:41):
be fully productive for theiremployer, etc.
With the permission to sit theirexam slightly different way, or
maybe with some assistivetechnologies can literally open
up their income to be increasedby thousands of dollars per year
and therefore potentiallyhundreds of thousands of dollars
over a lifetime.
The technology, as I said,varies in price from very
(21:04):
inexpensive to from apps on yourphone through to things like a
reading pen that reads for youthrough to other tools that you
can put on your laptop and theysit in the background there and
help you with spelling, withreading, with writing text and
everything else.
(21:24):
So all those bits of technologyserve to level the playing field
enormously and I think they arean exciting part.
Have to say to you, an oldbugger like myself, however, I
struggle with some of thetechnology, but even I've
managed to adapt quite a bit ofit.
Greg (21:40):
You were quite adept at showing us how it worked a few
months ago with with some ofthose smart pens and smart
readers and the dot paper andall of these things, which, I
had really no idea about.
The, you talked about the factthat one of the Difficulties
that some people can have iswriting and listening to a
(22:01):
lecture at the same time.
So there was technology withthat dot paper and the pen to
effectively record the sessionand then have it.
read back to you later when youget home so that you can maybe
take some time to do it a bitslowly if that's what you needed
to do.
Mike (22:19):
Yes, and the other thing is we know that people with
dyslexia are not short of ideas.
The ideas are percolating aroundin their head, but sometimes
they struggle to, Get thoseideas into text form.
And there are other bits oftechnology that help with that,
which are very exciting, Ithink.
And the exciting part abouttechnology is one, that it's
getting cheaper all the time.
But secondly, new bits are beingadded all the time.
(22:41):
It's a, there's a worldwideburst to make a difference for
this 10 percent of thepopulation.
Greg (22:48):
And clearly apps are probably pretty, easy to access,
but what about the other tech?
Is it pretty, pretty accessiblein terms of you can go to
Whitcoulls or online orwhatever?
Mike (22:57):
There's a place in Palmerston North called
Assistive Technologies.
So if anyone was to GoogleAssistive Technologies they
supply almost all of this to theNew Zealand economy.
It's not just for neurodiversepeople, they provide it for all
sorts of other people who needvarious kinds of assistance in
order for them to functionfully.
(23:18):
They don't sell wheelchairs, butthey sell the kind of digital
stuff that goes on your computeror Hearing devices, I think.
Greg (23:27):
Yeah great okay.
We might put a link to that onthe show notes.
So the other thing I want to geta comment from you on is the
connection, if that's the rightword, to te reo.
And you talk about this in yourbook, I think, about, te reo and
dyslexia and the connectionthere.
Do you want to share that?
Mike (23:43):
So a number of points, Greg.
The first one is te reo is amuch easier language to master.
In its written and spelled form,there's an English, because of
course, Te Reo follows therules.
English is the ultimate mongrelbits of language ever invented,
(24:04):
it's my only language, I love itto bits but it's a mongrel
thing.
There are so manycontradictions, there are so
many words spelt in ridiculousways, and it goes on and on.
Whereas Te Reo, it follows therules.
Now that's one exciting thing.
There's a couple of other thingsthat I think are pretty
(24:25):
exciting.
One, I'm working with a kuraKaupapa Total Immersion School
over in the Wairarapa, todevelop a screening tool to
identify dyslexia.
But written in te reo, the otherinteresting thing I think has
happened quite recently is thatNgāi Tahu, the iwi down in the
South Island, they are providingfrom their own hard won treaty
(24:47):
funds a full blown diagnosis forany Ngāi Tahu children with
dyslexia.
They provide a full blowndiagnosis and provide follow up
tutoring for them.
So they are doing what the NewZealand government isn't, but
should be doing.
Greg (25:04):
And the last point I wanted you to talk about out of
these sort of three areas you'vebeen associated with this
dyslexia friendly qualmark and,I guess health and safety people
will be familiar with this typeof thing.
They've been used for varioushealth and safety approaches
where, organizations can gothrough an auditing process and
(25:25):
get a a badge of honor, to saywe've achieved ABC there's also
one that was created a few yearsago in the accessibility space.
So people that are morephysically challenged than
others to get in and out ofbuildings and the like.
And so you were associated withthis dyslexia friendly qualmark.
Can you tell us about that?
Mike (25:45):
Yes when I developed, I brought the idea back from the
UK and we've developed a NewZealand version of it.
And one of the people I soughtadvice from at the start was the
SiteSafe Qual here in NewZealand, and there's another one
called Qualmark, which is usedin the hospitality tourism
sector.
(26:05):
Anyway, the Qualmark Ironically,at this moment in time, applies
only to tertiary educationinstitutions and other adjacent
organizations who deal withyoung people of that age.
But it's a set of 27 standardsof best practice, it's holistic,
(26:27):
it covers all the facets of anorganization from board level
through to senior management,through to budgeting, through to
practitioner level, and veryimportantly, the way you write
documents, because the way thatdocuments are written is a very
powerful thing, and I'd like tocome back to this in a moment,
but quite a few tertiaryeducation institutions in New
(26:49):
Zealand have been awarded theQualmark.
You've got to jump through a fewhurdles but quite a few big
players in New Zealand have gotit, and many more are signing up
to it.
Now, it seems really stupid,like a lot of other things, that
this is limited to the tertiarysector, where it really should
be in primary and secondaryschools.
(27:11):
We've just received a bit offunding recently to extend it
down into secondary schools, andthere's another project underway
to extend it into the workplace.
Because of course dyslexiadoesn't finish when you finish
school.
It's a lifetime condition andthere's a lot of productivity
loss.
(27:31):
There's a lot of health andsafety risk, ecetera, around
undiagnosed and unsupporteddyslexic people in the
workplace.
So there's a move afoot toextend it into the workplace.
And I've given manypresentations to workplaces
around New Zealand on that, andI'm keen to do more because once
(27:53):
again, it's a bit of a mindsetchange.
Greg (27:56):
That's really exciting to hear that you've got some
funding and you're able to lookat extending it.
And the workplace, and I guessthis is getting to the nub of
this podcast is what can healthand safety people do?
We're known for being sometimesthe creators of pages and pages
of documents on, I don't know,how to hit a hammer with a nail
(28:19):
or nail with a hammer orwhatever.
How to do a job and, there's allof these procedures and
protocols and different acronymsthat we use.
What can safety people do reallypractically to I guess, make
sure that any dyslexic people intheir audience might be more
(28:43):
inclusive or might be included alittle bit more.
Mike (28:47):
Good.
Very good question.
This is something I'm verypassionate about, Greg.
First of all, somebody withdyslexia, almost certainly.
Won't be able to read a lot ofthe health and safety
documentation and therefore, bydefinition, they're not safe.
Now, there are good ways to makea difference.
(29:09):
First of all, look not just atthe content of what you've
written, but look at the fontsize, the font type, the
background color of the paper onwhich you write it.
All that stuff and there isguidance out there and I can
send you a document at the endof that guidance because we've
(29:32):
learned in the last decade ortwo that many of the challenges
faced by neurodiverse dyslexicpeople in reading stuff is as
much the fault of the writer asit is of the reader.
So font type makes a bigdifference.
Lots of densely packed font is aproblem.
(29:55):
So that's, so spreading out yourtext a bit.
I know that's a bit of achallenge here because if you
spread out the text, you changethe document from being one inch
thick to two inches thick.
I completely understand that,but sometimes less is more.
But the other big way to make animprovement is if your documents
(30:16):
are online, you can.
And the reader has access tocomputer functions like Read
Aloud.
They can be, and should be,encouraged to use those
functions to have the text readto them.
And another thing to thinkabout, and this is increasingly
(30:40):
a thing overseas, although notmuch in New Zealand yet, and
that is on the website, thatthere are accessibility features
on the website to, change theweb change the font size, change
the font type, change thebackground color, have the stuff
(31:00):
read aloud, has stuff read aloudfrom the website so that it's
there as a function on thewebsite.
Now I know there's some costattached to that, but I think
it's probably better than havingdyslexic people being severely
compromised.
The other thing is, when youprovide documentation, find an
(31:22):
opportunity to present it inoral form combined with written
form.
So they should hear it as wellas see it.
So each one will reinforce theother.
Greg (31:36):
Now that's useful and super helpful and my man from
Wellington, talked about, peoplewith dyslexia being more visual
and creative learners andshowing people how to do things,
having them physically do thetask, rather than saying, Here's
a document.
It's 50 pages long.
(31:56):
Once you've read it, sign thisbit of paper and tell us that
you have read and understood it.
It's a pointless waste of time.
For probably more people thanjust the dyslexic audience.
So that's interesting.
And One of the other things thatyou said reminded me of a
webinar that the New ZealandInstitute of Safety Management
ran a few years ago when the oldCovid hit the ground running.
(32:19):
And it was a lady by the nameof, Miraka Davies, and she runs
a company called The School ofUnprofessional Writing, and she
talks about blaming, I guess theeducation sector and the legal
fraternity for the.
I'll use the word disappointing,she might use a different word,
(32:41):
the disappointing way we writenow and she says one of the key
things to do is introduce yourwriting brain to your reading
brain and, yeah so people writestuff generally for themselves
without thinking about theaudience.
And the audience is more thanjust somebody who's like them.
There's all sorts out there.
Mike (33:03):
Yes, very much and things that can help dyslexic learners
is pictograms, diagrams, charts,and information presented in a
different way than just blocksof text.
So at least think about breakingdown key points into bullet
points is a good idea.
(33:24):
Less is more.
Give people an opportunity totalk about it.
Don't just assume.
And this applies to more thanjust folk with dyslexia.
Don't just assume that becauseyou've given them the document
that they've read it.
How many times have most peopleseen a long, dense document and
said, Too long, won't read.
Greg (33:46):
Yeah, correct.
Hey, just as we finish I'vementioned it a few times, your
book, I've got a copy of itright here I know it's not the
type of book you can just jumpon to Amazon and get a copy of.
Do you want to tell us a bit, alittle bit about how to get
that?
It's called Congratulations, youhave dyslexia.
Great minds think differently.
(34:07):
How can we get a copy?
Mike (34:08):
That's a good question.
You can email me.
It's available in somebookshops.
It was available in Unity Booksin Wellington.
It's available there's a littlebookshop in Otaki that sells it.
I haven't put it through themain bookshops because they're
not very keen on self publishedbooks.
(34:29):
But if anyone emails me, theycan get a copy, then the name of
the book, by the way, is veryimportant in that there is a
terrible deficit mindset and adeficit thinking around
dyslexia.
And I.
The aim of the book was actuallyto put a positive spin on
dyslexia.
(34:50):
And the second part of the bookis, of the title is really
important.
So there used to be a mantra inthe in the world of work that
great minds think the same.
I'm going to say that isabsolutely bullshit.
Excuse my coarse language.
The really great minds are theminds that think differently.
(35:11):
So Bill Gates, Steve Jobs,Richard Branson, these are all
highly dyslexic people.
John Britton of the BritainMotorcycle, Richard Tate,
workshops.
Yep.
Yep.
All these people are people whohave been successful, not
because they think the same, butbecause they think differently.
And that's, I think what we needto do in the workplace.
(35:33):
The big players in thecommercial world, places like
the Boston Consulting Group andothers are realizing that
actually missing the skills andtalents of dyslexic people is a
big waste, not only from ahealth and safety perspective,
but for more broadly a humanresource perspective.
Greg (35:51):
Absolutely.
So I'll put a I'll put youremail address in the show notes.
I'll put your website on theshow notes.
I'll put you said you would sendme the guidance document.
Yes, I'll do that.
And is there a website for thequal mark?
Yes, it will be Ako Aotearoa.
Okay.
I'll send that to you as well Sowe'll put all of those things on
(36:14):
there.
If anybody wants to get in touchthey can use your email address.
But it's really been an awesomechat Mike, and really appreciate
you putting some time aside toto talk to me and I'm sure.
That this episode will will getout into the social media world
and will be a very valuableresource for people in
(36:37):
workplaces.
Hopefully more than justworkplaces, but this is this is
where we're aiming our audience.
So in workplaces and in thesafety field yeah, really
appreciate your time, Mike.
Mike (36:47):
Great to talk to you, Greg.
Thanks for the chance.
Cheers.
Greg (36:53):
What a valuable discussion it was great to hear someone who
really understands the depth andbreadth of dyslexia and the
impacts it has on those who areowners of brains wired to this
particular form ofneuro-diversity.
There's so much to unpack inthis conversation including
getting to understand the techthat is available to people to
(37:15):
become more included in society.
It's exciting to to hear Mike'sfuture plans to expand his
education offerings into theworkplace something really
relevant to those working inhealth and safety.
I encourage all of the listenersto take on Mike's challenge to
really think about how wepresent information to our
workers.
(37:35):
A percentage of whom may well bedyslexic.
I loved the analogy Mike gaveabout Sir Bob Charles and how
being left-handed didn't createa barrier for the golfer as
society broke that barrier downand created the left-handed golf
club.
What can we do to break down thebarriers for the neurodiverse
(37:56):
community?
So I've come to the end of thisepisode.
Thanks so much for listening, Ihope you found something
valuable that you can take awaythat might enhance your cultural
intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and as Mike talked about,there'll be some other resources
(38:17):
available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
(38:38):
to this podcast I would reallyappreciate it if you did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next episode's guest is DeborahRhodes, Deborahs a rural
advocate and dairy farm owner.
She's doing some pioneering andgroundbreaking research on
health and safety in the dairyindustry.
Her Masters pilot study in 2023championed safety climate as a
(39:03):
lead measurable indicator ofwork, group safety perceptions,
and New Zealand industry.
She is now undertaking a PhD toaddress critical gaps using
innovative methodology to shedlight on work, relationships and
safety challenges.
Thanks for tuning into theCulturally Intelligent Safety
Professional, Ka Kitei.
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