June 2, 2024 • 35 mins
This week on the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional we talk to Deborah Rhodes, Deborah is a Dairy Farmer, award winning academic and health and safety advocate. Deborah talks to us about Mission Orientated Research which she suggests as a way to achieve goals.
We discuss the risk profile of a farming environment something Deborah came to later in life after a career as a nurse and working in pharmaceuticals. During the discussion Deborah highlighted the value of Farm Assistants and their risk profile and it made me think about what other roles within an industry might have a similar profile and one that came to mind was the spotter on a construction site, in some ways holds huge responsibility, may not have high skills exposed to a range of hazards, but is usually a role that doesn’t get much attention. Who on your site or in your industry might fit the same profile?
Deborah is passionate about promoting the wellbeing of workers and she is right when she discusses the lack of attention we give to this subject in our workplaces, highlighting it as a more holistic approach than the way we typically focus on worker health, wellbeing brings a much wider scope to the discussion.
There is lots of great content around workers needs and how employers need to engage with their workers to better understand and appreciate those needs and we finished off with a discussion around the United Nations Sustainability Development Goals, an area Deborah suggest health and safety professionals use to guide their work.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-rhodes-1095b72a/
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Episode Transcript
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Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
culturally intelligence safetyprofessional a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured So today I'm talking toDeborah Rhodes.
Deborah is a rural advocate anda dairy farm owner and is
pioneering some groundbreakingresearch on health and safety in
the dairy industry.
In 2023 she completed a master'spilot study which championed
(01:29):
safety climate as a leadmeasurable indicator of work
group safety perceptions in NewZealand industry.
Now in 2024, she's down the pathof completing a PhD which is
going to address critical gapsusing innovative methodologies
to shed light on workerrelationships and safety
challenges.
(01:50):
And excitingly, this won her anEmerging Rural Researcher Award
just a month or two ago, whichwe'll come back to later in the
conversation.
Deborah's ambition for missionorientated research to achieve
responsible and safe work lifeaims her own work towards
tangible policy improvements bypromoting collaboration of
(02:10):
government, academia, and civilsociety.
Welcome, Deborah great to haveyou on the show.
Deborah (02:18):
Thanks.
Great to be here.
Greg (02:21):
As always is the case with this podcast the audience is
really keen to hear about ourguest's journey so maybe if we
start there and if you can justgive us an overview of what has
brought you to this point today.
Deborah (02:34):
Yeah thanks Greg.
Normally it starts with achronological timeline.
However, just thinking about thedairy yard that I was in this
morning and its circular nature,I could probably pretty much say
that I've come around in a bigcircle.
So I started with learningeducation as one does as a young
(02:55):
child.
I am then on into Academe, andthrough university at Victoria
doing my Bachelor of Nursing inearly, the first Bachelor of
Nursing in, in early 1990.
Graduated before that as aComprehensive Registered Nurse
in the health sector essentiallyand then went to industry after
(03:18):
that, changed industry in Europeand spent 14 years pretty much
most of that in pharmaceuticalsand pioneering new farmer
products.
I won't tell you which onesbecause you'll all just raise
your eyebrows or not.
And ran various projects andeventually came back to New
(03:38):
Zealand in early 2000s.
And as one does in their middle30s finds a husband, has
children and not that its a tickbox, but it's been an
extraordinary, an extraordinarytime going into a new industry,
starting the learning all overagain in dairy and eventually
(03:59):
coming back into academe in thedairy industry specifically
within the Faculty of Health,where I first started at
Victoria University in the newdiscipline of workplace health
and safety.
So that's why I'm here today.
Greg (04:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
So a bit of a global journey andsounds like some interesting
experiences around the world andin different Different sectors
and different environments.
And so you're now about tolaunch into, a PhD.
So tell us about that and howyou ended up in safety
specifically?
Deborah (04:34):
When we first came into dairy as second career people in
2010, I did come across a numberof people who were registered
nurses and we're involved inthat sort of rural health aspect
of of the industry.
However for us coming into thedairy industry and learning on
(04:58):
the ground how to farm, havingexperiences that were really
quite difficult at the time,being a bit older and starting
at the bottom of the careerladder there were Considerable
aspects of those experiences onbig farms where everywhere you
(05:18):
look there is a hazard and everywhich way you turn you feel
you're at risk.
So It never was leaving me muchother choice but to hone in a
bit further on how people workedin the dairy industry about four
or five years ago now I reallystarted to think about how
(05:43):
people's safety were affected bythe work relationships on dairy
farms and how they manifest asbeing only a very few workers,
like literally on a average sizefarm of 440 cows, you might only
have three workers.
On a thousand cows, you mighthave five or six workers.
(06:03):
So really, A few workers, sothose relationships are really
critical.
I quickly realized that actuallyacquiring any funding to do any
research without an academicbackground was quite difficult
and so I made some inquiries atthe Victoria University to look
(06:28):
at coming back in to do apostgraduate diploma in
workplace health and safety thatjust happened to arrive on the
doorstep at the same time that,that I was looking to go back
into some tertiary education.
So that process I don't doanything part time.
(06:49):
It's normally full on or fulltime or nothing.
So trying to run a farm at thesame time, but nevertheless the
postgraduate diploma inworkplace health and safety at
Victoria University wasfantastic.
I have to say that because Greg,you're one of my lecturers.
Thoroughly enjoyed it.
And that led me naturally into amaster's, which I undertook last
(07:14):
year.
And at Victoria University, theyhave a pretty intense system
whereby if your master'sresearch is got enough in it,
then PhD, which which I havesucceeded in doing.
Greg (07:31):
Excellent.
And And do you want to expand alittle bit on what it's all
about?
I know I gave a bit of an introabout critical gaps and
innovative methodologies andrelationships and safety
challenges.
Is there anything you can tellus at this point in terms of
what that all might mean, mightlook like?
Deborah (07:48):
The Masters pilot research that I did last year
used a very well established,validated international survey
from the Scandinavian countrieslooking at safety climate.
Safety climate is a snapshot intime of work groups perceptions
(08:12):
of Practices, Policies andProcedures within the Workplace.
So that survey actually consistsof seven domains and each of
those domains, along with theinterviews that I conducted as a
mixed method pilot research gaveme a whole new insight into what
(08:36):
a PhD could investigate moredeeply in terms of what was
really affecting workersperceptions of safety.
And so the PhD question isreally to explore the work
relationship and itsintersection with occupational
(08:58):
health and safety.
So taking that out of academiclanguage and really just looking
at what is it that happens inthose relational transactions or
those interactions that peoplehave in the workplace that may
or may not affect what they donext, what action they took
(09:20):
next, how that behavior may havechanged or be affected in terms
of safety.
Greg (09:29):
Okay, interesting.
And I guess, given that thispodcast is about cultural
intelligence, is there anyaspect of the PhD that might
look at how those perceptionsare viewed by different cultures
in a New Zealand dairy context,or is this a global thing?
Deborah (09:50):
So culture clearly from, let's talk about that in
terms of indigenous culture inNew Zealand, te ao Māori, um,
there, and this is specificallywithin the dairy industry.
So we have a considerable numberof iwi owned dairy farms across
New Zealand.
(10:11):
They work within theirstructures with Mautaranga Māori
principles, they may beexplained in terms of more of a
regenerating type practices thatinclude looking after
environment, people, water moreclosely and reporting obviously
to, to all of their iwi.
(10:34):
So it could be, thousands ofshareholders.
The approach from a culturalperspective of this research is
really about how humans as aspecies fit into how we do the
work and what is the impact onus as humans in the workplace?
(10:59):
So I suppose in answering yourquestion in a roundabout sort of
way, cultural safety Can I evenask you, Greg, what is it, what
does it mean?
Is it different in differentsectors?
How do we incorporate that intothe normal health and safety
(11:22):
plan, if you like, ticking offvarious pillars within the
workplace that we need tomanage?
But and just to sum that up,risks are all, are always those
things that we are trying tomanage, or at least that we are
encouraged to manage.
But nowadays we have to acceptuncertainty as something that we
(11:45):
need to be comfortable with.
Nature currently and has donefor some time pressures us also
to learn how to live with thatuncertainty as much as we can.
However, to do that, we needeverybody's voice.
We need work groups perceptionsof safety.
We need to use our humanity andour empathy and our skill sets
(12:10):
just to be open to how to managethose risks and be comfortable
with uncertainty.
And we need to listen.
So whether that fits our levelof definition of cultural safety
is up to the listener of thispodcast, but certainly for me,
that's how I think about it.
Greg (12:33):
Yeah, look, just from my own involvement in cultural
intelligence and getting anunderstanding that some of the
ways that safety, and if webring it down to a safety level,
um, is done from a Westernperspective, is just doesn't fit
with other cultures thinkingaround how they do things, how
(12:56):
they understand things, um, howthey view hierarchy, how as I
say, Western approaches justdon't make sense in some areas.
So I guess the whole point ofcultural intelligence is that
they're leader, boss, manager.
Colleagues if they were moreculturally intelligent and aware
(13:16):
of the people that work withthem, then, those things could
be taken into consideration.
Where you've got some cultureswhose view is, c'est la vie.
If it happens.
It's God's will.
And that's their cultural value.
That's their worldview.
And so it's just that.
(13:37):
Connection between that worldview and a more maybe western
world view that says this is thestructure of safety and how it
works here and this is how it'sgot to be.
And there's generally a bit of aclash there.
Deborah (13:49):
Yeah, I think, what I've just described is, and to
be a little bit presumptuous hasdeep elements with, that align
with Matauranga Māori in termsof how we live and work with
nature in my specific, Industryin the dairy industry across the
(14:11):
sector in primary production.
We're outside, we're impacted byclimate change, we've got
weather events coming at us.
We need to be very consciousabout how all of those aspects
interacting with nature is veryuncertain and we have to have
(14:35):
everyone's voice.
We have to have empathy acrossthe board and We have to be able
to hear different views of howpeople perceive, and this is, an
element of cultural safety, howdifferent people might perceive,
for example, a weather eventcoming at us, what does that
(14:56):
mean for that individual?
Is there is there perception of,safety for the animal higher
than their perception of safetyfor a colleague.
You only have to look at the wayin which cattle are revered in
India, compared to perhaps howthey might be in feedlots across
(15:22):
vast landscapes in the U.
S.
So yes, so as we have lots ofdifferent views working within
our sector on the ground, wehave to be culturally aware as
to where people's perceptions ofsafety are and, Where their
(15:43):
levels of uncertainty changetheir behaviors or not.
Greg (15:48):
Absolutely.
Perfect.
And I think what that speaks tois, and I've said this before on
this podcast about it, it'salmost a real reflection of
worker engagement if you'redoing that, worker engagement's,
not just about having a healthand safety rep and a committee
or a toolbox meeting every day.
There's just so many otherthings that organizations can be
doing to.
(16:09):
Understand the perceptions andthe views and the beliefs of
their workforce, and understandthat not everybody might think
like the boss.
And you would hope that mostbosses probably know that
inherently.
But maybe not.
So that, actually that, thatdiscussion talked to one of the
(16:31):
areas I was going to cover offon later.
So that's cool.
We've ticked off anotherquestion, but what I wanted to
come back to now is.
Is this award that you got tostand on a stage and accept an
award about emerging ruralresearcher so who, what was the
organization?
What was the event?
What was the award all about?
Deborah (16:52):
Hauora Taiwhenua is essentially our national rural
health organization sector.
They came under this umbrellatwo or three years ago now to
incorporate about sevendifferent networks and
organizations from rural GPs,rural nurses and midwives
(17:13):
association, then you've got allof the allied Health
professionals like physios andoccupational therapists and so
on, and they all came under thisumbrella of Hauora Taiwhenua so
the previous governmentdelegated significant budget to
Rural Health New Zealand toensure that, we, as an
(17:37):
organization of which I belongto now.
We're able to address ruralhealth needs and we hear a lot
about rural mental health, butthere's there are women out
there having babies as well.
So, I entered the award becauseI wanted to really shine a light
on an aspect of rural work thatnobody has really addressed
(18:02):
before in terms of their voice,who they are, where they are and
which is the dairy farmAssistant.
That is the person that is mosthurt on farm, the least
experienced, interacts.
(18:22):
within the dairy farm workingshed amongst the most hazards
and yet we don't really hearmuch about them.
They're remote, they'reunorganized, un unionized, and
they're incredibly difficult tofind.
However, we need them to harvestthe raw product that generates a
(18:42):
level of approximately 22billion worth of dairy product
leaving the country every year.
So this particular research ofmy PhD, I submitted to Rural
Health New Zealand.
This is the first year, theinaugural year, of an Emerging
(19:03):
Researcher Award.
They believed that the researchaspect of the organization is
becoming more critical as westruggle with providing rural
health care and I won it.
(19:24):
Which was quite a, which wasquite a surprise because It is a
new discipline within theFaculty of Health at Victoria
University.
It has emerging qualifiedprofessionals with huge amounts
of understanding of globalliterature and in depth
(19:50):
understanding of theory and waysin which we can create and
design research that haspractical implications for
policy development, but veryreal hands on way in which
people in workforces canunderstand and utilize better to
(20:12):
improve their own lives andtheir own safety.
Greg (20:14):
Yeah.
Congratulations.
That must have been, if it was asurprise, that's that was, that
must have been a great surpriseand a very proud moment, to get
up on the stage and receive thatinaugural recognition.
Deborah (20:26):
I think it's recognition of the research.
That, that I've put forward tobe done, of which is pioneering
research.
That's why it's a way I alwayschoose the difficult things.
But but also within the umbrellaof health, I think is really
important because health andsafety.
(20:50):
is, the health part of healthand safety often gets forgotten
in terms of just how big healthis globally as an overarching
umbrella of absolutelyeverything.
So really important to, to dragthis research into that setting
(21:11):
where we can have better crosssilo.
conversations about really whatresearch is important for the
future.
Greg (21:21):
Look, we know that, many years, it's always been big S,
little h, isn't it?
And from a health and safetyperspective, it's always about
safety.
Yet we know that the stats showus that, 15 to one of people
dying prematurely due to workrelated health.
And that's the stuff that we,the asbestos, the silicosis, the
(21:44):
hazardous chemicals and thosesorts of things, it probably
doesn't even get into thepsychosocial mental health space
of well being.
And that ratio I think isapplied globally.
It's the same or similar.
Deborah (22:02):
Yes.
And I think it's been quiteextraordinary how mental health
and please don't misinterpret meor listeners misinterpret my
comment.
About mental health hascertainly generated its own its
own sort of bubble, if you likethat we've all become aware of
(22:25):
very quickly over the lastnumber of years and that's
great.
It, really needed to be lifted.
And certainly previously workingin acute mental health you
always, I always felt like itwas, where I got put because
there was no surgery to be doneor something.
But nevertheless, health, theimpacts on people's health.
(22:47):
Considering that they spendeight hours a day the old eight
hours a day at work, eight hoursof sleep and eight hours of play
we're spending some of that playtime also in work and just
things like diabetes in theworkplace, people not being able
to have time to check theirblood sugars, people not being
(23:10):
able to stop on the side of theroad eat their lunch when
they're driving.
These are considerable healthissues that impact directly on
safety outcomes and cost to theNational Bill of Health.
Greg (23:26):
And added to that, and you talk about it being a recent
phenomenon, or a recent knownphenomenon, or talked about
subject, because 20 years ago wewere told to come to work and
leave all that personal stuff atthe gate, and now we're told,
bring your whole self to work.
But then the business ownerdoesn't know if that health
(23:49):
issue is A, theirresponsibility.
B, they probably don'tunderstand the impact it might
be having on their work or therisk to the safety.
The worker doesn't want to tell.
It's a, it's, it can be a bit ofa minefield if to try and work
out what is the right thing todo in some of those areas.
Deborah (24:09):
Yeah, and we haven't worked that out, and yet you're
running a podcast on culturalsafety, you know.
But this is really good timingfor cultural safety because it
has You know, because it's thisnew aspect that people need to
think about.
It actually can pull all ofthose siloed discussions more
(24:31):
neatly into more of acomprehensive understanding and
discussion about.
about the human in theworkplace, about our humanity in
the workplace, about really,we're not in the workplace to
have to, for our labor to befinancialized and profit
(24:54):
extracted off our backs withoutany return to our own State of
humanness, our health, oursafety, our cultural beliefs,
and how we may perceiveculturally the workplace and how
we are treated by others.
A really good time to open upcultural safety in terms of
(25:18):
being able to collate all ofthose other issues into a better
conversation, in my opinion.
Greg (25:26):
Yeah.
And you talked about things likeDiabetes and lunch breaks and
those things.
And I take it, to, to anotherextreme.
It's more a mental health thing.
I would assume given thediversity of our workplaces and
the spiritual or religiousneeds.
Of some people in, in, theworking community, some of the
(25:50):
cultural norms.
Do we understand the impact?
You talk about lunch, but do weunderstand the impact of things
like Ramadan?
on a person's ability to do aphysical day's work if their,
nutrition intake has changed fora period of time, or that, the
impact on somebody who needs topray at a certain time of the
(26:12):
day, those sorts of things whichwhich I'm guessing most
workplaces probably don'tconsider, certainly not in New
Zealand.
Deborah (26:21):
It's interesting you bring that up.
I worked as part of my role inTurkey for I think it was one of
my markets for about five yearsand come Ramadan, I was normally
feeling quite hungry really bythe end of the day but as a
nation and when the mosques letoff their sound for praying I
(26:45):
was in the, I was in theminority, probably along with,
thousands of other tourists, butnevertheless.
In, within a cultural setting,those things are the norm.
However, now we have so manyimmigrants working across all of
our different sectors now, wehave a responsibility as an
(27:05):
employer to have anunderstanding of Employees
needs, and that's reallycritical to ensure that the
employment relationship doesn'tbecome so unequal and skewed
that it becomes exploitative.
(27:25):
So cultural safety is somethingthat we have an obligation, if
we're an employer, to takeconsideration of and therefore
for human resources who managethose processes and policies
within the workplace to makesure they are installed
adequately for employers needsto be managed.
Greg (27:48):
Absolutely.
So that's that's a really coolconversation, just as we bring
it to a bit of a close anythingthat you can offer the health
and safety profession out therewho might be listening to this
in terms of what can they do onthe front line to maybe think
about some of the things thatyou've talked about.
(28:10):
How do we make sure that we're alittle bit more human, in our
interactions with the workforce?
Health and safety people tend tobe, has a reputation, let's say
that we've got a reputation ofbeing people that tell others
what to do and how to do it.
That may be, the wrong approach,but how can we be better at
(28:31):
engaging with that diverseworkforce to make sure that
employment relations areundertaken in a more appropriate
way?
Deborah (28:43):
Look, I think I'll, to be practical and and for people
to actually have a think aboutand go and look something up I
take it back to my Orientationof my research is what I call
mission orientated research.
(29:04):
This is, involves and this canbe for health and safety
professionals across anythingthat they do, is setting
ambitious specific measurablegoals or missions that, that
address not just societalchallenges or opportunities, but
they are framed around what theissues are like climate change
(29:28):
or healthcare or technologicalinnovation within the
organization so that you canactually mobilize the resources
that you need within theorganization, the expertise the
innovative ideas.
To achieve those tangibleoutcomes to meet those
measurable goals.
So, missions very much come fromone of my somebody who I follow
(29:54):
quite closely globally ProfessorMariana Mazzucato from the
Public Policy Institute inLondon.
She also heads the UN Council ofHealth, and she talks about
having mission orientatedresearch that is underpinned by
(30:16):
the Sustainable DevelopmentGoals.
So the SDGs, the 17 SDGs, as ahealth and safety person within
an organization, you can go tothe 17 SDGs and you can have a
read through them and think,which one of these, are very
specific to my organization?
And then look at, How you candevelop something with those
(30:38):
headings of being ambitious andspecific and having measurable
goals.
Greg (30:42):
Yep.
Great.
Absolutely.
And those 17 goals do providesome practical sort of guidance,
as to areas that you might lookat.
And if you're purely, A healthand safety person, some of them
may not be particularly relevantbut there certainly are ones
there that you could say,although there's not a specific
(31:04):
one that says health and safety,but there is one that, or there
are several that, that talkabout health and safety related
Yeah.
Deborah (31:11):
And health, very specifically.
I can't remember what number itis now but I think it's
important to look to see whereyour resources and expertise
that you can use within anorganization and working
collaboratively for the purposeof everybody's good outcomes.
(31:32):
And they then reflect on thewider community and wider
society because everything thatyou do on a micro level with
health and safety within anorganization will impact through
the chain.
To the wider community and thewider society.
And that's, we've got some majorissues now that are big.
(31:54):
It's very difficult to breakthose down to, to understand how
we can have an impact at our ownlevel.
But you have to be able to havesome headings to, to do that.
And that's why missionorientated work is very useful
in engaging SDG's to understandwhy You're doing it that way.
And maybe how you can achieveit.
Greg (32:17):
Outstanding.
Great conversation.
Thanks for putting the timeaside.
I know you've probably been upearly.
Pushing cows down the race ordoing whatever else you get up
to at four o'clock in themorning on a milking station in
in the middle of nowhere, quitefrankly, I think, aren't you?
Deborah (32:36):
Oh, Golden Bay!!
Greg (32:39):
And there probably could be worse places to be, I'm sure.
Yeah.
Hey, Deborah, thanks so much foryour time.
Enjoyed the chat and ThanksYeah, congrats on the award and
we'll put some of these itemsthat you've mentioned up on the
transcript of this episode sothat people can go and go and
check some of them out.
Deborah (32:58):
That's great.
Hey, thanks, Greg.
Appreciate it.
Greg (33:01):
What a great conversation.
I loved the mission orientatedresearch approach, Deborah as
suggesting as a way to achievegoals.
During the discussion Deborahhighlighted the value of farm
assistants and their riskprofile and it made me think
about what other role within anindustry might have a similar
profile.
One that came to mind, was thespotter on a construction site,
(33:24):
in some ways this holds hugeresponsibility, may not have
high skills, they are exposed toa huge range of hazards, but
it's usually a role that doesn'tget much attention.
Who on your site or yourindustry might fit the same
profile?
Deborah is right in theattention that is lacking
(33:44):
towards health or maybewellbeing in our workplaces.
In the new Haumaru Tangataframework released by Te Ropu
Marutau O Aotearoa they'vereplaced the word health with
the more holistic wordwellbeing.
More on that in a futureepisode.
There was lots of great contentaround worker needs and how
(34:05):
employers need to engage withtheir workers to better
understand and appreciate thoseneeds.
We finished off with thediscussion around the United
Nations SustainabilityDevelopment Goals.
An area Deborah suggest healthand safety professionals use to
guide their work.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode.
(34:26):
Thanks so much for listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence.
Get in touch with me viaLinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
(34:49):
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast.
I would really appreciate it ifyou did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is Rick Foxfrom FR&NK Health and Safety
(35:10):
Consulting based in Australia.
Rick is a First Nations man fromCentral West New South Wales who
enjoys collaborating with andsupporting clients and
colleagues.
He has a diverse employmentbackground, including work in
state government localgovernment and the electricity
distribution sector, as well asmanufacturing, retail, and
(35:32):
hospitality.
Rick talks to us in the lead upto the 2024 Safeguard conference
where he will be a guestpresenter at this event.
Thanks for tuning in to theCulturally Intelligent Safety
professional.
Ka kitei.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
culturally intelligence safetyprofessional a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured So today I'm talking toDeborah Rhodes.
Deborah is a rural advocate anda dairy farm owner and is
pioneering some groundbreakingresearch on health and safety in
the dairy industry.
In 2023 she completed a master'spilot study which championed
(01:29):
safety climate as a leadmeasurable indicator of work
group safety perceptions in NewZealand industry.
Now in 2024, she's down the pathof completing a PhD which is
going to address critical gapsusing innovative methodologies
to shed light on workerrelationships and safety
challenges.
(01:50):
And excitingly, this won her anEmerging Rural Researcher Award
just a month or two ago, whichwe'll come back to later in the
conversation.
Deborah's ambition for missionorientated research to achieve
responsible and safe work lifeaims her own work towards
tangible policy improvements bypromoting collaboration of
(02:10):
government, academia, and civilsociety.
Welcome, Deborah great to haveyou on the show.
Deborah (02:18):
Thanks.
Great to be here.
Greg (02:21):
As always is the case with this podcast the audience is
really keen to hear about ourguest's journey so maybe if we
start there and if you can justgive us an overview of what has
brought you to this point today.
Deborah (02:34):
Yeah thanks Greg.
Normally it starts with achronological timeline.
However, just thinking about thedairy yard that I was in this
morning and its circular nature,I could probably pretty much say
that I've come around in a bigcircle.
So I started with learningeducation as one does as a young
(02:55):
child.
I am then on into Academe, andthrough university at Victoria
doing my Bachelor of Nursing inearly, the first Bachelor of
Nursing in, in early 1990.
Graduated before that as aComprehensive Registered Nurse
in the health sector essentiallyand then went to industry after
(03:18):
that, changed industry in Europeand spent 14 years pretty much
most of that in pharmaceuticalsand pioneering new farmer
products.
I won't tell you which onesbecause you'll all just raise
your eyebrows or not.
And ran various projects andeventually came back to New
(03:38):
Zealand in early 2000s.
And as one does in their middle30s finds a husband, has
children and not that its a tickbox, but it's been an
extraordinary, an extraordinarytime going into a new industry,
starting the learning all overagain in dairy and eventually
(03:59):
coming back into academe in thedairy industry specifically
within the Faculty of Health,where I first started at
Victoria University in the newdiscipline of workplace health
and safety.
So that's why I'm here today.
Greg (04:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
So a bit of a global journey andsounds like some interesting
experiences around the world andin different Different sectors
and different environments.
And so you're now about tolaunch into, a PhD.
So tell us about that and howyou ended up in safety
specifically?
Deborah (04:34):
When we first came into dairy as second career people in
2010, I did come across a numberof people who were registered
nurses and we're involved inthat sort of rural health aspect
of of the industry.
However for us coming into thedairy industry and learning on
(04:58):
the ground how to farm, havingexperiences that were really
quite difficult at the time,being a bit older and starting
at the bottom of the careerladder there were Considerable
aspects of those experiences onbig farms where everywhere you
(05:18):
look there is a hazard and everywhich way you turn you feel
you're at risk.
So It never was leaving me muchother choice but to hone in a
bit further on how people workedin the dairy industry about four
or five years ago now I reallystarted to think about how
(05:43):
people's safety were affected bythe work relationships on dairy
farms and how they manifest asbeing only a very few workers,
like literally on a average sizefarm of 440 cows, you might only
have three workers.
On a thousand cows, you mighthave five or six workers.
(06:03):
So really, A few workers, sothose relationships are really
critical.
I quickly realized that actuallyacquiring any funding to do any
research without an academicbackground was quite difficult
and so I made some inquiries atthe Victoria University to look
(06:28):
at coming back in to do apostgraduate diploma in
workplace health and safety thatjust happened to arrive on the
doorstep at the same time that,that I was looking to go back
into some tertiary education.
So that process I don't doanything part time.
(06:49):
It's normally full on or fulltime or nothing.
So trying to run a farm at thesame time, but nevertheless the
postgraduate diploma inworkplace health and safety at
Victoria University wasfantastic.
I have to say that because Greg,you're one of my lecturers.
Thoroughly enjoyed it.
And that led me naturally into amaster's, which I undertook last
(07:14):
year.
And at Victoria University, theyhave a pretty intense system
whereby if your master'sresearch is got enough in it,
then PhD, which which I havesucceeded in doing.
Greg (07:31):
Excellent.
And And do you want to expand alittle bit on what it's all
about?
I know I gave a bit of an introabout critical gaps and
innovative methodologies andrelationships and safety
challenges.
Is there anything you can tellus at this point in terms of
what that all might mean, mightlook like?
Deborah (07:48):
The Masters pilot research that I did last year
used a very well established,validated international survey
from the Scandinavian countrieslooking at safety climate.
Safety climate is a snapshot intime of work groups perceptions
(08:12):
of Practices, Policies andProcedures within the Workplace.
So that survey actually consistsof seven domains and each of
those domains, along with theinterviews that I conducted as a
mixed method pilot research gaveme a whole new insight into what
(08:36):
a PhD could investigate moredeeply in terms of what was
really affecting workersperceptions of safety.
And so the PhD question isreally to explore the work
relationship and itsintersection with occupational
(08:58):
health and safety.
So taking that out of academiclanguage and really just looking
at what is it that happens inthose relational transactions or
those interactions that peoplehave in the workplace that may
or may not affect what they donext, what action they took
(09:20):
next, how that behavior may havechanged or be affected in terms
of safety.
Greg (09:29):
Okay, interesting.
And I guess, given that thispodcast is about cultural
intelligence, is there anyaspect of the PhD that might
look at how those perceptionsare viewed by different cultures
in a New Zealand dairy context,or is this a global thing?
Deborah (09:50):
So culture clearly from, let's talk about that in
terms of indigenous culture inNew Zealand, te ao Māori, um,
there, and this is specificallywithin the dairy industry.
So we have a considerable numberof iwi owned dairy farms across
New Zealand.
(10:11):
They work within theirstructures with Mautaranga Māori
principles, they may beexplained in terms of more of a
regenerating type practices thatinclude looking after
environment, people, water moreclosely and reporting obviously
to, to all of their iwi.
(10:34):
So it could be, thousands ofshareholders.
The approach from a culturalperspective of this research is
really about how humans as aspecies fit into how we do the
work and what is the impact onus as humans in the workplace?
(10:59):
So I suppose in answering yourquestion in a roundabout sort of
way, cultural safety Can I evenask you, Greg, what is it, what
does it mean?
Is it different in differentsectors?
How do we incorporate that intothe normal health and safety
(11:22):
plan, if you like, ticking offvarious pillars within the
workplace that we need tomanage?
But and just to sum that up,risks are all, are always those
things that we are trying tomanage, or at least that we are
encouraged to manage.
But nowadays we have to acceptuncertainty as something that we
(11:45):
need to be comfortable with.
Nature currently and has donefor some time pressures us also
to learn how to live with thatuncertainty as much as we can.
However, to do that, we needeverybody's voice.
We need work groups perceptionsof safety.
We need to use our humanity andour empathy and our skill sets
(12:10):
just to be open to how to managethose risks and be comfortable
with uncertainty.
And we need to listen.
So whether that fits our levelof definition of cultural safety
is up to the listener of thispodcast, but certainly for me,
that's how I think about it.
Greg (12:33):
Yeah, look, just from my own involvement in cultural
intelligence and getting anunderstanding that some of the
ways that safety, and if webring it down to a safety level,
um, is done from a Westernperspective, is just doesn't fit
with other cultures thinkingaround how they do things, how
(12:56):
they understand things, um, howthey view hierarchy, how as I
say, Western approaches justdon't make sense in some areas.
So I guess the whole point ofcultural intelligence is that
they're leader, boss, manager.
Colleagues if they were moreculturally intelligent and aware
(13:16):
of the people that work withthem, then, those things could
be taken into consideration.
Where you've got some cultureswhose view is, c'est la vie.
If it happens.
It's God's will.
And that's their cultural value.
That's their worldview.
And so it's just that.
(13:37):
Connection between that worldview and a more maybe western
world view that says this is thestructure of safety and how it
works here and this is how it'sgot to be.
And there's generally a bit of aclash there.
Deborah (13:49):
Yeah, I think, what I've just described is, and to
be a little bit presumptuous hasdeep elements with, that align
with Matauranga Māori in termsof how we live and work with
nature in my specific, Industryin the dairy industry across the
(14:11):
sector in primary production.
We're outside, we're impacted byclimate change, we've got
weather events coming at us.
We need to be very consciousabout how all of those aspects
interacting with nature is veryuncertain and we have to have
(14:35):
everyone's voice.
We have to have empathy acrossthe board and We have to be able
to hear different views of howpeople perceive, and this is, an
element of cultural safety, howdifferent people might perceive,
for example, a weather eventcoming at us, what does that
(14:56):
mean for that individual?
Is there is there perception of,safety for the animal higher
than their perception of safetyfor a colleague.
You only have to look at the wayin which cattle are revered in
India, compared to perhaps howthey might be in feedlots across
(15:22):
vast landscapes in the U.
S.
So yes, so as we have lots ofdifferent views working within
our sector on the ground, wehave to be culturally aware as
to where people's perceptions ofsafety are and, Where their
(15:43):
levels of uncertainty changetheir behaviors or not.
Greg (15:48):
Absolutely.
Perfect.
And I think what that speaks tois, and I've said this before on
this podcast about it, it'salmost a real reflection of
worker engagement if you'redoing that, worker engagement's,
not just about having a healthand safety rep and a committee
or a toolbox meeting every day.
There's just so many otherthings that organizations can be
doing to.
(16:09):
Understand the perceptions andthe views and the beliefs of
their workforce, and understandthat not everybody might think
like the boss.
And you would hope that mostbosses probably know that
inherently.
But maybe not.
So that, actually that, thatdiscussion talked to one of the
(16:31):
areas I was going to cover offon later.
So that's cool.
We've ticked off anotherquestion, but what I wanted to
come back to now is.
Is this award that you got tostand on a stage and accept an
award about emerging ruralresearcher so who, what was the
organization?
What was the event?
What was the award all about?
Deborah (16:52):
Hauora Taiwhenua is essentially our national rural
health organization sector.
They came under this umbrellatwo or three years ago now to
incorporate about sevendifferent networks and
organizations from rural GPs,rural nurses and midwives
(17:13):
association, then you've got allof the allied Health
professionals like physios andoccupational therapists and so
on, and they all came under thisumbrella of Hauora Taiwhenua so
the previous governmentdelegated significant budget to
Rural Health New Zealand toensure that, we, as an
(17:37):
organization of which I belongto now.
We're able to address ruralhealth needs and we hear a lot
about rural mental health, butthere's there are women out
there having babies as well.
So, I entered the award becauseI wanted to really shine a light
on an aspect of rural work thatnobody has really addressed
(18:02):
before in terms of their voice,who they are, where they are and
which is the dairy farmAssistant.
That is the person that is mosthurt on farm, the least
experienced, interacts.
(18:22):
within the dairy farm workingshed amongst the most hazards
and yet we don't really hearmuch about them.
They're remote, they'reunorganized, un unionized, and
they're incredibly difficult tofind.
However, we need them to harvestthe raw product that generates a
(18:42):
level of approximately 22billion worth of dairy product
leaving the country every year.
So this particular research ofmy PhD, I submitted to Rural
Health New Zealand.
This is the first year, theinaugural year, of an Emerging
(19:03):
Researcher Award.
They believed that the researchaspect of the organization is
becoming more critical as westruggle with providing rural
health care and I won it.
(19:24):
Which was quite a, which wasquite a surprise because It is a
new discipline within theFaculty of Health at Victoria
University.
It has emerging qualifiedprofessionals with huge amounts
of understanding of globalliterature and in depth
(19:50):
understanding of theory and waysin which we can create and
design research that haspractical implications for
policy development, but veryreal hands on way in which
people in workforces canunderstand and utilize better to
(20:12):
improve their own lives andtheir own safety.
Greg (20:14):
Yeah.
Congratulations.
That must have been, if it was asurprise, that's that was, that
must have been a great surpriseand a very proud moment, to get
up on the stage and receive thatinaugural recognition.
Deborah (20:26):
I think it's recognition of the research.
That, that I've put forward tobe done, of which is pioneering
research.
That's why it's a way I alwayschoose the difficult things.
But but also within the umbrellaof health, I think is really
important because health andsafety.
(20:50):
is, the health part of healthand safety often gets forgotten
in terms of just how big healthis globally as an overarching
umbrella of absolutelyeverything.
So really important to, to dragthis research into that setting
(21:11):
where we can have better crosssilo.
conversations about really whatresearch is important for the
future.
Greg (21:21):
Look, we know that, many years, it's always been big S,
little h, isn't it?
And from a health and safetyperspective, it's always about
safety.
Yet we know that the stats showus that, 15 to one of people
dying prematurely due to workrelated health.
And that's the stuff that we,the asbestos, the silicosis, the
(21:44):
hazardous chemicals and thosesorts of things, it probably
doesn't even get into thepsychosocial mental health space
of well being.
And that ratio I think isapplied globally.
It's the same or similar.
Deborah (22:02):
Yes.
And I think it's been quiteextraordinary how mental health
and please don't misinterpret meor listeners misinterpret my
comment.
About mental health hascertainly generated its own its
own sort of bubble, if you likethat we've all become aware of
(22:25):
very quickly over the lastnumber of years and that's
great.
It, really needed to be lifted.
And certainly previously workingin acute mental health you
always, I always felt like itwas, where I got put because
there was no surgery to be doneor something.
But nevertheless, health, theimpacts on people's health.
(22:47):
Considering that they spendeight hours a day the old eight
hours a day at work, eight hoursof sleep and eight hours of play
we're spending some of that playtime also in work and just
things like diabetes in theworkplace, people not being able
to have time to check theirblood sugars, people not being
(23:10):
able to stop on the side of theroad eat their lunch when
they're driving.
These are considerable healthissues that impact directly on
safety outcomes and cost to theNational Bill of Health.
Greg (23:26):
And added to that, and you talk about it being a recent
phenomenon, or a recent knownphenomenon, or talked about
subject, because 20 years ago wewere told to come to work and
leave all that personal stuff atthe gate, and now we're told,
bring your whole self to work.
But then the business ownerdoesn't know if that health
(23:49):
issue is A, theirresponsibility.
B, they probably don'tunderstand the impact it might
be having on their work or therisk to the safety.
The worker doesn't want to tell.
It's a, it's, it can be a bit ofa minefield if to try and work
out what is the right thing todo in some of those areas.
Deborah (24:09):
Yeah, and we haven't worked that out, and yet you're
running a podcast on culturalsafety, you know.
But this is really good timingfor cultural safety because it
has You know, because it's thisnew aspect that people need to
think about.
It actually can pull all ofthose siloed discussions more
(24:31):
neatly into more of acomprehensive understanding and
discussion about.
about the human in theworkplace, about our humanity in
the workplace, about really,we're not in the workplace to
have to, for our labor to befinancialized and profit
(24:54):
extracted off our backs withoutany return to our own State of
humanness, our health, oursafety, our cultural beliefs,
and how we may perceiveculturally the workplace and how
we are treated by others.
A really good time to open upcultural safety in terms of
(25:18):
being able to collate all ofthose other issues into a better
conversation, in my opinion.
Greg (25:26):
Yeah.
And you talked about things likeDiabetes and lunch breaks and
those things.
And I take it, to, to anotherextreme.
It's more a mental health thing.
I would assume given thediversity of our workplaces and
the spiritual or religiousneeds.
Of some people in, in, theworking community, some of the
(25:50):
cultural norms.
Do we understand the impact?
You talk about lunch, but do weunderstand the impact of things
like Ramadan?
on a person's ability to do aphysical day's work if their,
nutrition intake has changed fora period of time, or that, the
impact on somebody who needs topray at a certain time of the
(26:12):
day, those sorts of things whichwhich I'm guessing most
workplaces probably don'tconsider, certainly not in New
Zealand.
Deborah (26:21):
It's interesting you bring that up.
I worked as part of my role inTurkey for I think it was one of
my markets for about five yearsand come Ramadan, I was normally
feeling quite hungry really bythe end of the day but as a
nation and when the mosques letoff their sound for praying I
(26:45):
was in the, I was in theminority, probably along with,
thousands of other tourists, butnevertheless.
In, within a cultural setting,those things are the norm.
However, now we have so manyimmigrants working across all of
our different sectors now, wehave a responsibility as an
(27:05):
employer to have anunderstanding of Employees
needs, and that's reallycritical to ensure that the
employment relationship doesn'tbecome so unequal and skewed
that it becomes exploitative.
(27:25):
So cultural safety is somethingthat we have an obligation, if
we're an employer, to takeconsideration of and therefore
for human resources who managethose processes and policies
within the workplace to makesure they are installed
adequately for employers needsto be managed.
Greg (27:48):
Absolutely.
So that's that's a really coolconversation, just as we bring
it to a bit of a close anythingthat you can offer the health
and safety profession out therewho might be listening to this
in terms of what can they do onthe front line to maybe think
about some of the things thatyou've talked about.
(28:10):
How do we make sure that we're alittle bit more human, in our
interactions with the workforce?
Health and safety people tend tobe, has a reputation, let's say
that we've got a reputation ofbeing people that tell others
what to do and how to do it.
That may be, the wrong approach,but how can we be better at
(28:31):
engaging with that diverseworkforce to make sure that
employment relations areundertaken in a more appropriate
way?
Deborah (28:43):
Look, I think I'll, to be practical and and for people
to actually have a think aboutand go and look something up I
take it back to my Orientationof my research is what I call
mission orientated research.
(29:04):
This is, involves and this canbe for health and safety
professionals across anythingthat they do, is setting
ambitious specific measurablegoals or missions that, that
address not just societalchallenges or opportunities, but
they are framed around what theissues are like climate change
(29:28):
or healthcare or technologicalinnovation within the
organization so that you canactually mobilize the resources
that you need within theorganization, the expertise the
innovative ideas.
To achieve those tangibleoutcomes to meet those
measurable goals.
So, missions very much come fromone of my somebody who I follow
(29:54):
quite closely globally ProfessorMariana Mazzucato from the
Public Policy Institute inLondon.
She also heads the UN Council ofHealth, and she talks about
having mission orientatedresearch that is underpinned by
(30:16):
the Sustainable DevelopmentGoals.
So the SDGs, the 17 SDGs, as ahealth and safety person within
an organization, you can go tothe 17 SDGs and you can have a
read through them and think,which one of these, are very
specific to my organization?
And then look at, How you candevelop something with those
(30:38):
headings of being ambitious andspecific and having measurable
goals.
Greg (30:42):
Yep.
Great.
Absolutely.
And those 17 goals do providesome practical sort of guidance,
as to areas that you might lookat.
And if you're purely, A healthand safety person, some of them
may not be particularly relevantbut there certainly are ones
there that you could say,although there's not a specific
(31:04):
one that says health and safety,but there is one that, or there
are several that, that talkabout health and safety related
Yeah.
Deborah (31:11):
And health, very specifically.
I can't remember what number itis now but I think it's
important to look to see whereyour resources and expertise
that you can use within anorganization and working
collaboratively for the purposeof everybody's good outcomes.
(31:32):
And they then reflect on thewider community and wider
society because everything thatyou do on a micro level with
health and safety within anorganization will impact through
the chain.
To the wider community and thewider society.
And that's, we've got some majorissues now that are big.
(31:54):
It's very difficult to breakthose down to, to understand how
we can have an impact at our ownlevel.
But you have to be able to havesome headings to, to do that.
And that's why missionorientated work is very useful
in engaging SDG's to understandwhy You're doing it that way.
And maybe how you can achieveit.
Greg (32:17):
Outstanding.
Great conversation.
Thanks for putting the timeaside.
I know you've probably been upearly.
Pushing cows down the race ordoing whatever else you get up
to at four o'clock in themorning on a milking station in
in the middle of nowhere, quitefrankly, I think, aren't you?
Deborah (32:36):
Oh, Golden Bay!!
Greg (32:39):
And there probably could be worse places to be, I'm sure.
Yeah.
Hey, Deborah, thanks so much foryour time.
Enjoyed the chat and ThanksYeah, congrats on the award and
we'll put some of these itemsthat you've mentioned up on the
transcript of this episode sothat people can go and go and
check some of them out.
Deborah (32:58):
That's great.
Hey, thanks, Greg.
Appreciate it.
Greg (33:01):
What a great conversation.
I loved the mission orientatedresearch approach, Deborah as
suggesting as a way to achievegoals.
During the discussion Deborahhighlighted the value of farm
assistants and their riskprofile and it made me think
about what other role within anindustry might have a similar
profile.
One that came to mind, was thespotter on a construction site,
(33:24):
in some ways this holds hugeresponsibility, may not have
high skills, they are exposed toa huge range of hazards, but
it's usually a role that doesn'tget much attention.
Who on your site or yourindustry might fit the same
profile?
Deborah is right in theattention that is lacking
(33:44):
towards health or maybewellbeing in our workplaces.
In the new Haumaru Tangataframework released by Te Ropu
Marutau O Aotearoa they'vereplaced the word health with
the more holistic wordwellbeing.
More on that in a futureepisode.
There was lots of great contentaround worker needs and how
(34:05):
employers need to engage withtheir workers to better
understand and appreciate thoseneeds.
We finished off with thediscussion around the United
Nations SustainabilityDevelopment Goals.
An area Deborah suggest healthand safety professionals use to
guide their work.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode.
(34:26):
Thanks so much for listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence.
Get in touch with me viaLinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
(34:49):
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast.
I would really appreciate it ifyou did that.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is Rick Foxfrom FR&NK Health and Safety
(35:10):
Consulting based in Australia.
Rick is a First Nations man fromCentral West New South Wales who
enjoys collaborating with andsupporting clients and
colleagues.
He has a diverse employmentbackground, including work in
state government localgovernment and the electricity
distribution sector, as well asmanufacturing, retail, and
(35:32):
hospitality.
Rick talks to us in the lead upto the 2024 Safeguard conference
where he will be a guestpresenter at this event.
Thanks for tuning in to theCulturally Intelligent Safety
professional.
Ka kitei.
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