June 8, 2024 • 32 mins
Once again on the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional we have connected with a fabulous guest from Aotearoa’s great west Island of Australia and we are talking FR&NKly with Rick Fox from Health and Safety consultancy FR&NK. Rick is a proud First Nations man from the Wiradjuri mob in Central West NSW.
Rick shares his diverse background and experiences in various sectors including state government, local government, and energy distribution and discusses his journey into the safety profession, emphasizing his time as a mature apprentice in Sydney's energy distribution sector, where he developed a keen interest in health and safety. He talks about founding FR&NK highlighting the shared values and humor held between himself and his business partner that facilitated their partnership.
A significant part of the conversation focuses on Rick's work with First Nations councils in Queensland, helping them meet safety compliance in culturally appropriate ways. Rick explains the importance of understanding and respecting cultural norms when implementing safety measures in Aboriginal communities, such as the preference for non-confrontational communication styles and the importance of community well-being over individual achievement. He underscores the need for safety professionals to be culturally informed and respectful, adapting their approaches to fit the specific context and needs of the communities they work with.
The podcast also touches on the broader theme of cultural intelligence in safety practices, comparing approaches in Australia with those in New Zealand, particularly the integration of te ao Māori practices in health and safety. We agree on the value of curiosity and respect in engaging with different cultures and the importance of understanding context to create effective and respectful safety strategies.
Rick concludes with a preview of his upcoming appearance at the Safeguard Conference in New Zealand, where he will share insights from his work with First Nations organizations and participate in a myth-busting session on psychosocial hazards. For those of you heading to the conference on the 18th & 19th June, catch up with Rick and have a yarn.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/r-fox-/
https://frnkcapability.com/
https://safeguard.co.nz/events/safeguard-national-health-safety-conference-2024/#agenda
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
culturally intelligence safetyprofessional a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this week I once again reachacross the ditch and catch up
with a safety pro fromAustralia.
Rick Fox is a capability coachand co founder of FR&NK which is
a leading health and safetyconsulting business which
specializes in developingindividual and organizational
(01:29):
safety capability.
Rick's got a number of years ofpractical experience in guiding
businesses to achieve positivehealth, safety, and cultural
improvements.
He's got an extensive backgroundin work health and safety
advice, systems, trainingfacilitation and auditing.
Rick is a First Nations man, hismob, is, Wiradjuri Central New
(01:52):
South Wales, and he enjoyscollaborating with and
supporting clients andcolleagues.
He has a diverse employmentbackground, including work in
state government, localgovernment, and the electrical
distribution sector, as well asmanufacturing, retail, and
hospitality.
Yammer, Rick, great to have youon the show.
Rick (02:09):
Yammer, Greg.
Yammer, thank you so much, mate.
That was wonderful.
It's great to be with you.
Greg (02:14):
Looking forward to our conversation and as I say, it
looks like you've got quite adiverse background over a number
of years.
So tell us a bit about yourjourney and how you and your
business partner, Naomi, endedup with FR&NK.
Rick (02:27):
Absolutely.
So you're right.
I do have a bit of a backgroundand when you lay it all out like
that, it's oh geez, I have doneall that.
I like a bit of a try before youbuy, so I throw myself into
different industries anddifferent sectors.
And where I really found myselfand found a career was with the
state government in energydistribution.
So I worked as an energy workerin Sydney for 10 years.
(02:51):
I was a mature age apprenticeinverted commas, mature.
And so that's what really Iguess showed me what health and
safety was when you're dealingwith 132, 000 volts and
substations and things likethat.
You have to have your wits aboutyou.
And through that, I justorganically ended up falling
(03:12):
into, okay someone needs to dothe risk assessment.
All right Rick will have acrack.
And I found out I really likedit and I enjoyed it.
And I enjoyed challenging longheld beliefs and conventions.
And I jumped in my DeLorean,went back 30 years into local
government sector.
From the state governmentsector, and I love it there.
(03:32):
It's the closest government tothe people.
You can actually, you can seethe change that you're making
within the organizations aswell.
And from there I bounced arounda couple of councils in Sydney
and then took the opportunity tomove to beautiful Gold Coast.
And that's where the journeyinto my own consultancy business
started.
And it was fantastic timing justas COVID started, I decided I
(03:56):
wanted to go out on my own, soit was wonderful risk assessment
fantastic stuff.
And in South East Queensland,and safety in general, Greg,
being such a small industry anda small sector, you tend to bump
into people pretty regularly.
And through introductions andvarious other means, I ended up
(04:17):
working for a company that mynow business partner, Naomi,
worked for.
And we immediately clicked andboth had that sort of irreverent
Western sense of humor.
She's from a mining town, MountIsa.
I'm from the Western suburbs ofSydney.
Aligned with the way that wethought about safety.
And so we both left thatorganization eventually.
(04:39):
We, we did a try before you buy.
We both had our respectiveconsultancy businesses and we
worked out a deal If after 12months, we still like each other
and we're willing to talk toeach other, we might as well
formalize it.
Yep.
And that's where FR&NK came tobe.
Greg (04:55):
Excellent, excellent great story.
Now, actually, I'm going to goright off script here and talk
about Frank.
Not your FR&NK but my Frank.
And so anybody that knows meknow that I'm a bit of a Queen
fan and it's not the RoyalQueen.
It's the Freddie Mercury Queen.
And a number of years ago, theyproduced an album called News of
(05:16):
the World.
And it's got a picture of arobot on the front of it.
And if you've been to any Queenconcerts in the recent past
with, the new Queen the robotmakes an appearance through, the
video coverage and a bit oftechnology.
And the name of the robot,Frank.
(05:36):
So there you go.
You're following in thefootsteps of Rock gods
Rick (05:40):
indeed.
FR&NK is not to peek too farbehind the curtain of our media
and marketing genius but FR&NKhas just rearranged letters that
abbreviate our name.
So it's Fox Rick and Naomi Kemp.
But what we actually we reallyenjoy having, Frank
conversations with our clientsand just laying it out.
You generally don't get anyfluff with us, which is it's
(06:03):
refreshing, I think, to a lot ofclients.
Greg (06:06):
Great.
You've got a bit of a backgroundin that sort of local government
space and you've done a lot ofwork in the Queensland area, I
believe to help the health andsafety capabilities of the
indigenous and First Nationscommunities.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about that?
Rick (06:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
So Queensland has 66 councilsthat are part of a mutual
scheme.
So they've all clumped togetherand for their insurance purposes
and as a part of that they'rerequired to be audited against a
national audit tool and meetcompliance for that.
We were brought in to work withfour First Nations councils so
(06:44):
starting with CherbourgAboriginal Shire Council, which
is near Kingaroy.
Then you move north to you'vegot the Torres, you've got two
Torres Strait two Torres Straitcouncils.
Torres Strait Islands RegionalCouncil, Torres Shire Council.
And effectively, Working withthose councils about meeting,
(07:05):
meeting them where they're atand and not dropping a 176 page
manual Warrabinda is the, isanother council that I failed to
mention.
Warrabinda is west ofRockhampton.
But it was meeting them wherethey're at and getting an
understanding of How the councilactually runs who's who in the
zoo so to speak.
And as I said to the CEO ofSherbrooke Aboriginal Shire
(07:27):
Council, who comes from theEast.
You might be the CEO in thisorganization but you can be damn
sure that there's an auntiepulling the strings behind the
scenes that you don't even knowabout.
And he might have laughed andrecognised it and said, yeah,
you're probably right.
So it was effectively workingwith the safety assets in each
of those councils andunderstanding where they're at,
(07:50):
understanding where they neededto be and providing that
sustainable path to get there.
As I said, dropping a manual onthem and saying have a great
time.
Enjoy that.
It's never going to work.
It's not going to work in aWestern sort of culture, let
alone a First Nations cultureand adding to the complications
of working with those types oforganizations, particularly in
(08:13):
the Torres Shire and TorresStrait Islands.
It's just so remote, Greg.
You're talking, hours and hoursto get there, from Southeast
Queensland, and when you getthere, it's worth a view, don't
get me wrong, but everything'sincredibly expensive.
Basic PPE and things like thatare not necessarily readily
available.
(08:35):
So it's about being practical aswell and not just waving your
safety book around and saying,Hey, the law says you need to do
this.
It's about understanding, okay,what can we actually achieve?
And who are my best advocatesand allies to, to get that
change through?
Greg (08:52):
So would it be fair to say that, that Western approaches to
health and safety probably don'twork too well?
in that environment.
Rick (09:00):
Yeah, that'd probably sum it up fairly well.
That's not to say thatcommunities aren't willing to
adopt, changes that, kind ofmakes sense.
And they can see the impact andthe benefit in those changes.
But as I said, Greg, moving inand saying what the legislation
says.
It's never going to work andit's never going to get the
(09:22):
meaningful, impactful changethat, that we want as safety
professionals when we work withan organization.
So it's about being a, a bitinformed about where you're
about to go, who you're about tospeak with and what levers can I
pull and what levers can I justleave for the moment.
Greg (09:42):
So that's let's talk a little bit more about that.
I guess part of culturalintelligence is exactly what
you've talked about.
And so what would be some of thecultural norms that from a First
Nations perspective would berelevant, appropriate?
understood by that group toimplement in a, from a safety
(10:04):
perspective.
And obviously we talk, we havesimilar conversations here in
New Zealand with the indigenousculture here and certainly
trying to promote te ao Māoripractices into how organisations
do health and safety.
Are there some sort of key FirstNations Aboriginal sort of
traits, values, norms that mightfit into that health and safety
(10:28):
structure?
Rick (10:28):
I look at the work that's been done on your side of the
ditch, Greg with a great deal ofenvy and I'm genuinely jealous
at the framework that has beendeveloped and promoted by TRMA.
It's something that I look atand when I was first shown
through the document, I I got alittle bit angry because I was
like, Oh my God, this isamazing.
(10:49):
But to your point, there aresimilarities between First
Nations culture and Maoriculture and Pacifica culture in
terms of, the collectivistnature and emphasizing that the
well being of the community isgreater than the well being or
individual achievement of oneperson.
So collaboration andconsultation is incredibly
(11:13):
important.
And I think it's one of thosethings, even in a Western
culture, I don't think it's donetremendously well.
Consultation and collaboration.
Understanding that lever for aFirst Nations community is about
understanding the benefit to thegroup, to the mutual, to the
community.
(11:34):
That's a big deal.
Greg (11:37):
Yeah, look, I think you're right.
Probably use I would talk aboutengagement.
And of course, it's a word andit's a concept within the
legislation that's inherent partof it.
And it's probably the keycomponent of the legislation
from a relationship perspective,worker, PCBU.
And I think organizations justget so stuck on, I've got to
(12:01):
have a rep and I've got to havea committee or a toolbox meeting
and full stop.
And I just think some of theseopportunities around engagement
you talk about collaboration andconsultation.
There's just so manyopportunities to show true
engagement through otheractivities rather than just a
(12:23):
toolbox meeting.
Is that some of the work thatyou would be doing?
Up in those, some of thosecommunities.
Rick (12:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
So instead of focusing on atoolbox talk or focusing on a
committee meeting we'd have ayarn.
So getting people in a circle noone stands out in the circle,
everyone's equal.
And that's really important.
You can show your respect.
to others by engaging with themrespectfully.
(12:50):
You can also identify if you'vetriggered something or if, okay
I may need to explore that alittle bit personally later down
the track.
But yeah, we talk about it interms of let's have a yarn,
let's really understand whatyou're doing.
And there's some great storiesfrom the North from the top end
of Australia that I walked awaygobsmacked, And just shaking my
(13:13):
head, wow, I can't believe Ijust heard that.
But that was just pushing myselfto, engage with the people how
they like to be engaged with andnot coming in as the safety guy,
it's coming in As a respectful,inquisitive Wiradjuri man in a
different country to those I wasspeaking to, but understanding
that the respect is the thingthat, that was going to bind
(13:36):
this whole engagement.
Greg (13:38):
And you say, you use the term yarn, and I know in
Pacifica culture Talanoa is aword that's used to describe
exactly what you're talkingabout.
We've come to work.
Let's just have a chat aboutanything, get to know each other
and then go and, do the formalsort of work related things.
And I think that goes a long wayto creating trust within the
(14:00):
group.
And, And yeah, so I think thatvery similar approaches across
those two cultures and then, ofcourse, Māori's got got similar
approaches in some of the waysthat that things are done in
that in that culture.
Is there anything else specificto Aboriginal culture that That
would be really good for healthand safety people to know, and
(14:21):
just as by way of example, it'sa cultural norm, that you don't
put anything to do with yourhead on the same table that you
eat from.
So if a, if a Pākehā supervisorcomes into the lunchroom in a
forestry block and puts hishardhat on the table, then
that's a deal breaker type ofscenario.
(14:43):
And that's not hard to know thatsort of stuff.
Is there anything from anAboriginal perspective that that
might be useful for safetyprofessionals to, to know about
before they go in and startengaging with that culture?
Rick (14:54):
There are so many different nations within
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander culture.
To give you a hard and fast,rule, Greg, would be would
probably.
Put myself in a compromisingposition for one camp or
another.
Yep.
But I will say, here's somethings to consider.
Eye contact.
(15:15):
Now, in, in some parts of thecountry, some some parts of some
nations in in Australia, eyecontact, it's a sign of respect
and we understand each other.
In other parts of the country,eye contact, it's or a lack of
eye contact is actuallypreferred.
Direct eye contact seemsconfronting, it seems very,
(15:36):
aggressive.
But so eye contact.
So the simple way to get aroundthat is to just ask, how would
you like me to engage with you?
What's your preferred method?
And there's other little bitsand pieces.
In some parts of the country, insome parts of the islands up
north it would be improper for aman to just, approach a approach
(15:58):
a female and just say, starthaving a casual conversation.
You would need an ally, or you'dneed someone to, an advocate, or
someone to facilitate thatconversation.
Whereas other parts of theisland in the Torres Shire,
that's not a problem.
That's not an issue whatsoever.
Whilst I can't give you any hardand fast I guess rules, what I
(16:20):
can say is try and be a littlebit informed.
Try and understand where you'regoing.
If you are going into toWarribindershire Council, as an
example it's isolated country.
When I say isolated it's an hourand a half to your next major
town.
But there's very little elsearound there.
(16:41):
And so they're dry communitiesas well, largely, in Aboriginal
Shire Councils.
So understanding that a drycommunity driving, no alcohol,
no drugs, anything like thatyou're not going to go in and
start having a conversationabout how you're looking forward
to knocking off at five o'clockand going to the pub.
It's understanding the littlenuances and being respectful And
(17:05):
particularly when, if you're ina position of employing First
Nations people that, that startsvery much from the interview
process.
How do, how would you like to beengaged?
And the strong bond of kinshipin Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander people.
It may seem like they are aloofor uninterested or, they, their
(17:25):
absenteeism may be a wee bithigher.
But that is probably largely dueto the fact that they're looking
after other kin within theirfamily and things like that.
So there's all these little allthese little things that you
can, if you're really curious,you can find out about, you can
have respectful conversationsand and be mindful, I think.
(17:46):
And look, that, we have clientsthat are almost 99.
9 percent Vietnamese in, in oneof the factories here in
Queensland.
The same rules apply.
I'm not a Vietnamese man.
I need to know what the rules ofengagement are.
Greg (18:05):
Yeah, look, so much in there, and I think I pick up on
your point about, not reallyhaving a one size fits all
answer, and absolutely that'strue, I think, for all cultures,
and we talk about differentcultural clusters around the
world, and it's not aboutstereotyping and saying That all
Anglos do this, or all Māori arelike this it's, it's a starting
(18:27):
point.
It's not trying to, as I say,it's not trying to say everybody
in that group is like that.
It does help if you, as you say,do some research.
know a little bit about whatyou're going into, and it's a,
again, it's a key component ofbecoming more culturally
intelligent.
It's, is that planning, thatresearch into the environment
(18:49):
that, you're going into and andunderstanding some of those
nuances and some of those, justthose little things that might
be specific to that particularcountry, part of the country,
state whatever it might be.
Rick (19:02):
No, absolutely.
And also, I guess Greg that's itfor safety professionals who do
want to engage with FirstNations communities in
Australia.
Another thing to keep in mindFor the most part, a lot of the
communities were throwntogether.
These councils were given sortof land or they were missions
(19:24):
and so on and so forth.
So to a large extent, some ofthese communities are actually
re identifying who they are aspeople and as a culture.
And it's a really interestingjourney to watch them be a part
of as well.
And sitting back and trying tounderstand, okay, how can I be
respectful how can I play mypart in helping this community
(19:46):
remain safe and have youngpeople thriving in the
community.
It's an honour that we have.
It's an honour that I really seeas as pivotal to what we do at
FR&NK and just having thatlittle bit of curiosity, it goes
a long way.
Greg (20:03):
It's word of the decade at the moment, isn't it?
Curiosity and and I think it'sreally important and just trying
to understand the perspective ofthe other person.
You don't have to agree with itbut at least if you understand
somebody else's point of viewand then you can, you can move
forward with whatever theproject might be that you're
working on.
(20:24):
And I think also to your some ofthose things that you talk about
it said over here quite a bitthat, that a lot of te ao Māori
approaches to various things aretotally appropriate for other
cultures.
And as you're talking, I'mlistening to some of the things
that you're saying and how itwould be good to engage with
(20:44):
Aboriginal culture and you gowhy wouldn't, it's your Vietnam
story.
Why wouldn't it just be the samefor everybody?
Because actually it's just aboutbeing a good human a lot of the
time.
It's not about Māori or Pacificaor Aboriginal or French or
whatever it might be.
I think there's a lot to belearnt from just, being a good
person and treating otherpeople.
(21:05):
I think on of the days of thatsaying, what was the saying?
do unto others as you'd havedone unto you.
Actually that's just totallywrong, isn't it?
It's do unto others as theywould like to be done unto, if
that's the right way of puttingit.
Treat people how they want to betreated because it's probably
different to how you want to betreated.
Rick (21:23):
I think that's that's exactly right, Greg, and I'm not
sure what the I'll agree withyou because I know what you
mean.
Have a bit of a saying, whichis, curiosity with respect.
And having curiosity is onething, but, having curiosity
with respect, you mentioned, we,we won't always agree.
With another way, or we won'tagree with the way someone's
(21:47):
doing something.
The first time that I saw aranger with a crocodile a
saltwater crocodile and a rangerin a little dinghy trying to
wrangle this crocodile, I'mlike, Oh my God, what am I
watching here?
What's happening?
And I you can stand back anddigest it a little bit and then
you ask a question.
Hi.
Is there another.
A vessel, another boat that youcould use for this.
(22:08):
And actually the stategovernment bought us a big boat
because, they thought they weredoing the right thing, but it
turns out that the wall of theboat is too high and we're at
greater risk of falling in if weuse that boat.
So we've gone back to our dinghybecause it works.
And you're like, okay, cool,you've got a process.
Greg (22:29):
And I think you find that a lot, don't you?
You ask those couple ofquestions and all of a sudden
some stuff becomes a little bitmore clearer and I guess that's
why there's been a little bit ofa backlash over the last few
years, hasn't there, about someof these videos and photos that
get put on LinkedIn andpeople's, saying, what an idiot,
why would you do this?
(22:49):
When actually, We don't know thefull story.
We've got a very small image ona screen and you don't know what
else is going on until you talkto whoever's involved.
Rick (23:00):
Context is key.
And if you don't know thecontext, if you don't have an
understanding of why someone isdoing something, you don't know
what's going on.
Observe, ask questions.
If your spidey senses aretelling you, Oh my God, there's
something really off about this.
There's certainly a way to havethat conversation.
But it's a respectfulconversation that you're having
from a place of care and empathyfor that other human, because
(23:24):
inherently we do what we do,Greg.
Because we want better forhumans.
We want better for the humanrace.
We want to be safer tomorrowthan we were today.
And that's our goal.
Doing that, asking thosequestions respectfully, that's
how we do it.
Greg (23:41):
I hear you're going to visit the, come over the ditch
In a couple of weeks, or a fewweeks time, I think by the time
this episode airs, it'll be acouple of weeks until you're
coming over, and I believe thatyou're going to be front and
center on the stage at theSafeguard Conference.
And without getting me intotrouble with the Honorable Peter
Bateman is there anything youcan tell us about what we might
expect to hear from you at theSafeguard Conference?
Rick (24:04):
I'd expect more conversations and more narrative
around saltwater crocodiles.
No, not to give too much away.
Yeah, Peter would would climbinto it, into me as soon as I
landed.
But I'm going to be sharing ayarn about the work that we've
been doing with those FirstNations organizations.
And I guess.
Tying that into the wonderfulwork that is happening with
(24:25):
Māori people and, the fantasticwork that's already happening on
your side of the ditch.
And as I said before I'm like,criminally jealous of some of
that beautiful work.
And it's lit a fire under me toactually get some people
together to start that process.
And over in New Zealand, Iexpect to share a yarn.
I, hopefully I hear some laughsbecause there's probably going
(24:48):
to be some jokes in there atsome stage.
But I'm also going to be sharingthe stage with some other
esteemed people talking aboutI'll be facilitating a bit of a
myth busting session intopsychosocial hazards as well.
That's not going to be we'veonly agreed to it if we can kind
Derail the stayed and dare I sayboringness of psychosocial.
(25:10):
It seems to have been the topicof conference for the last two
years.
So we're going to derail thatand we're going to do some myth
busting which should be fun.
It should be interestinghopefully challenging because
there's a lot of great work outthere in that space.
But I think there's also a lotof.
Confusion and misunderstandingand if we can approach it with a
(25:31):
bit of humor and have some keytakeaways, I think that's the
right tip.
Greg (25:35):
You mentioned just for people that might be listening
that would, might not know, youmentioned TRMA which is Te Ropu
Maratau O Aotearoa, which is theMāori Health and Safety
Association, and I was actuallyat their conference a couple of
weeks ago now where they talkedabout their new I guess Worker
Wellbeing Program HaumaruTangata which you'll be hearing
(25:55):
more about over, coming weeksand months.
And yeah, it's really Cool tosee work being done to
indigenise health and safety andmake it relevant for people that
it's relevant to rather thantrying to navigate stuff that
maybe doesn't make sense.
Rick (26:12):
No, that's exactly right.
There's such a passion for it aswell.
And really brief conversationwith Vance Walker and, talking
me through The wonderful workthat's being done over there.
I can't wait to get over there.
I can't wait to connect withother safety professionals on
that side of the ditch and ourhope is we're certainly not
coming over from Australia andthinking I'll come on, we'll
(26:36):
show you how it's done.
I'm coming over to share a yarnand I'm coming over to connect
with as many people as possibleas well.
And the life of a safetyprofessional can be a lonely one
at times, you're not necessarilythe most popular person in the
room.
When you get a collective groupof safety professionals together
it's always great to keep it upvibe and add a bit of humor.
Greg (26:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Any last comments?
Any last tips?
I, to be honest, I don't knowwhat the Aboriginal population
in New Zealand is.
I wouldn't have a clue.
I suspect it's probably nothuge.
So I don't know if your averagesafety professional is going to
run into too many Aboriginalpeople in workplaces here.
(27:17):
I don't know.
What would your thoughts be onthat?
Rick (27:19):
I would suggest you're right.
I don't think it would be hugeat all.
Based on the last censusfigures, there's probably a tick
over a million people withinAustralia that identify as
Aboriginal or First Nationspeople.
I'd argue that there's probablyvery few, in relation to
(27:40):
population in New Zealand.
The only tips I can provide areprobably to take the approach
that you would when you'reworking with Maori and Pacifica
people, which is come at themwith a place, come at them with
respect from a place of empathyand understanding.
And as an Aboriginal person inanother culture, We're very
(28:03):
conscious of understanding howwe can be respectful in that
place as well.
Mutual respect goes a long way,Greg.
Greg (28:12):
Actually, I just finally want to just come back to the
comment you made right at thebeginning about just asking, How
you want to be, how can we bestengage?
And I think sometimes, I don'tknow, the majority, whatever the
majority might be, sometimes geta little bit apprehensive about
asking that question for fear ofbeing accused of being racist
or, whatever.
(28:33):
And the more I talk to peopleabout this, the more that people
from other cultures say, no,that's exactly, that's not The
right thing to do is to just askthat question.
And so yeah, absolutely.
A good good piece of advicehere.
Rick, Guwayu is that right?
Rick (28:51):
Yeah.
Guwayu Greg.
In Wiradjuri Guwayu means later.
So effectively, we don't say,goodbye, we say later.
So we believe we'll see you inthis lifetime or in the next.
Greg (29:02):
Awesome.
It's been great having you onthe show and I look forward to
catching up with you when you'rehere in June for the Safeguard
Conference.
And yeah, thanks so much forputting some time aside to have
a chat with me today.
Rick (29:13):
Greg, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me andGuwayu.
Thank you.
Greg (29:21):
I don't think I want to try and analyze this episode too
much, I'll leave it to you totake the many valuable comments
from Rick and consider how theymight apply in your business and
in fact your life.
Curiosity with respect, what awonderful way to think about how
we should engage with people whoare different from us.
(29:43):
Collaboration and consultationis an important aspect of
working across cultures andactually, if we think about
those words and apply it to therequirements around worker
engagement, These conceptsreally do deliver on that
obligation.
Typically in a Westernconstruct, we might go to a
toolbox meeting but as wediscuss in this episode that
(30:06):
might not work for everyone, soyou have to know your audience.
Maybe have a good yarn, or applyTalanoa or Karakia or waiata,
which might connect more withyour team.
Rick talked about eye contact asa significant cultural value to
understand with Aboriginalculture.
And the same applies to some ofthe cultures we work with a New
(30:29):
Zealand.
To some a lack of eye contactcan be seen as disrespectful.
when generally, the opposite istrue, and that it is a way of
respecting hierarchy orleadership, as Rick says.
Context is key.
This episode is a taster for theupcoming safeguard conference.
(30:49):
where Rick will be a keynotespeaker, getting into detail
about the work FR&NK has beendoing to support indigenous
communities.
For those of you heading to theconference on the 18th and 19th
of June and Auckland.
Catch up with Rick and have ayarn.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode.
(31:10):
Thanks so much for listening Ihope you found something
valuable that you can take awaythat might enhance aspects of
your own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn, I'mposting content regularly so
(31:31):
keep an eye on your feed andcomment if you see something
that resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is Dr.
Catherine Wu who is a thoughtleader on global leadership and
(31:55):
interculturalism.
She's a passionate advocate forcultural diversity and is on a
mission to inspire 10 millioninterculturalists to connect
cultures and speak up fordiversity.
She is a lecturer at the NanyangBusiness School in Singapore
where she teaches in Asia's topNanyang MBA program and the
(32:16):
prestigious Nanyang Fellows MBAfor senior public sector
executives.
For me, this was a bucket listinterview, which we conducted
kanohi ki te kanohi orface-to-face in Singapore.
So once again, Grab a cuppa andimmerse yourself in this
episode.
(32:36):
Thanks again for tuning in tothe Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional.
Ka Kitei
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
culturally intelligence safetyprofessional a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this week I once again reachacross the ditch and catch up
with a safety pro fromAustralia.
Rick Fox is a capability coachand co founder of FR&NK which is
a leading health and safetyconsulting business which
specializes in developingindividual and organizational
(01:29):
safety capability.
Rick's got a number of years ofpractical experience in guiding
businesses to achieve positivehealth, safety, and cultural
improvements.
He's got an extensive backgroundin work health and safety
advice, systems, trainingfacilitation and auditing.
Rick is a First Nations man, hismob, is, Wiradjuri Central New
(01:52):
South Wales, and he enjoyscollaborating with and
supporting clients andcolleagues.
He has a diverse employmentbackground, including work in
state government, localgovernment, and the electrical
distribution sector, as well asmanufacturing, retail, and
hospitality.
Yammer, Rick, great to have youon the show.
Rick (02:09):
Yammer, Greg.
Yammer, thank you so much, mate.
That was wonderful.
It's great to be with you.
Greg (02:14):
Looking forward to our conversation and as I say, it
looks like you've got quite adiverse background over a number
of years.
So tell us a bit about yourjourney and how you and your
business partner, Naomi, endedup with FR&NK.
Rick (02:27):
Absolutely.
So you're right.
I do have a bit of a backgroundand when you lay it all out like
that, it's oh geez, I have doneall that.
I like a bit of a try before youbuy, so I throw myself into
different industries anddifferent sectors.
And where I really found myselfand found a career was with the
state government in energydistribution.
So I worked as an energy workerin Sydney for 10 years.
(02:51):
I was a mature age apprenticeinverted commas, mature.
And so that's what really Iguess showed me what health and
safety was when you're dealingwith 132, 000 volts and
substations and things likethat.
You have to have your wits aboutyou.
And through that, I justorganically ended up falling
(03:12):
into, okay someone needs to dothe risk assessment.
All right Rick will have acrack.
And I found out I really likedit and I enjoyed it.
And I enjoyed challenging longheld beliefs and conventions.
And I jumped in my DeLorean,went back 30 years into local
government sector.
From the state governmentsector, and I love it there.
(03:32):
It's the closest government tothe people.
You can actually, you can seethe change that you're making
within the organizations aswell.
And from there I bounced arounda couple of councils in Sydney
and then took the opportunity tomove to beautiful Gold Coast.
And that's where the journeyinto my own consultancy business
started.
And it was fantastic timing justas COVID started, I decided I
(03:56):
wanted to go out on my own, soit was wonderful risk assessment
fantastic stuff.
And in South East Queensland,and safety in general, Greg,
being such a small industry anda small sector, you tend to bump
into people pretty regularly.
And through introductions andvarious other means, I ended up
(04:17):
working for a company that mynow business partner, Naomi,
worked for.
And we immediately clicked andboth had that sort of irreverent
Western sense of humor.
She's from a mining town, MountIsa.
I'm from the Western suburbs ofSydney.
Aligned with the way that wethought about safety.
And so we both left thatorganization eventually.
(04:39):
We, we did a try before you buy.
We both had our respectiveconsultancy businesses and we
worked out a deal If after 12months, we still like each other
and we're willing to talk toeach other, we might as well
formalize it.
Yep.
And that's where FR&NK came tobe.
Greg (04:55):
Excellent, excellent great story.
Now, actually, I'm going to goright off script here and talk
about Frank.
Not your FR&NK but my Frank.
And so anybody that knows meknow that I'm a bit of a Queen
fan and it's not the RoyalQueen.
It's the Freddie Mercury Queen.
And a number of years ago, theyproduced an album called News of
(05:16):
the World.
And it's got a picture of arobot on the front of it.
And if you've been to any Queenconcerts in the recent past
with, the new Queen the robotmakes an appearance through, the
video coverage and a bit oftechnology.
And the name of the robot,Frank.
(05:36):
So there you go.
You're following in thefootsteps of Rock gods
Rick (05:40):
indeed.
FR&NK is not to peek too farbehind the curtain of our media
and marketing genius but FR&NKhas just rearranged letters that
abbreviate our name.
So it's Fox Rick and Naomi Kemp.
But what we actually we reallyenjoy having, Frank
conversations with our clientsand just laying it out.
You generally don't get anyfluff with us, which is it's
(06:03):
refreshing, I think, to a lot ofclients.
Greg (06:06):
Great.
You've got a bit of a backgroundin that sort of local government
space and you've done a lot ofwork in the Queensland area, I
believe to help the health andsafety capabilities of the
indigenous and First Nationscommunities.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about that?
Rick (06:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
So Queensland has 66 councilsthat are part of a mutual
scheme.
So they've all clumped togetherand for their insurance purposes
and as a part of that they'rerequired to be audited against a
national audit tool and meetcompliance for that.
We were brought in to work withfour First Nations councils so
(06:44):
starting with CherbourgAboriginal Shire Council, which
is near Kingaroy.
Then you move north to you'vegot the Torres, you've got two
Torres Strait two Torres Straitcouncils.
Torres Strait Islands RegionalCouncil, Torres Shire Council.
And effectively, Working withthose councils about meeting,
(07:05):
meeting them where they're atand and not dropping a 176 page
manual Warrabinda is the, isanother council that I failed to
mention.
Warrabinda is west ofRockhampton.
But it was meeting them wherethey're at and getting an
understanding of How the councilactually runs who's who in the
zoo so to speak.
And as I said to the CEO ofSherbrooke Aboriginal Shire
(07:27):
Council, who comes from theEast.
You might be the CEO in thisorganization but you can be damn
sure that there's an auntiepulling the strings behind the
scenes that you don't even knowabout.
And he might have laughed andrecognised it and said, yeah,
you're probably right.
So it was effectively workingwith the safety assets in each
of those councils andunderstanding where they're at,
(07:50):
understanding where they neededto be and providing that
sustainable path to get there.
As I said, dropping a manual onthem and saying have a great
time.
Enjoy that.
It's never going to work.
It's not going to work in aWestern sort of culture, let
alone a First Nations cultureand adding to the complications
of working with those types oforganizations, particularly in
(08:13):
the Torres Shire and TorresStrait Islands.
It's just so remote, Greg.
You're talking, hours and hoursto get there, from Southeast
Queensland, and when you getthere, it's worth a view, don't
get me wrong, but everything'sincredibly expensive.
Basic PPE and things like thatare not necessarily readily
available.
(08:35):
So it's about being practical aswell and not just waving your
safety book around and saying,Hey, the law says you need to do
this.
It's about understanding, okay,what can we actually achieve?
And who are my best advocatesand allies to, to get that
change through?
Greg (08:52):
So would it be fair to say that, that Western approaches to
health and safety probably don'twork too well?
in that environment.
Rick (09:00):
Yeah, that'd probably sum it up fairly well.
That's not to say thatcommunities aren't willing to
adopt, changes that, kind ofmakes sense.
And they can see the impact andthe benefit in those changes.
But as I said, Greg, moving inand saying what the legislation
says.
It's never going to work andit's never going to get the
(09:22):
meaningful, impactful changethat, that we want as safety
professionals when we work withan organization.
So it's about being a, a bitinformed about where you're
about to go, who you're about tospeak with and what levers can I
pull and what levers can I justleave for the moment.
Greg (09:42):
So that's let's talk a little bit more about that.
I guess part of culturalintelligence is exactly what
you've talked about.
And so what would be some of thecultural norms that from a First
Nations perspective would berelevant, appropriate?
understood by that group toimplement in a, from a safety
(10:04):
perspective.
And obviously we talk, we havesimilar conversations here in
New Zealand with the indigenousculture here and certainly
trying to promote te ao Māoripractices into how organisations
do health and safety.
Are there some sort of key FirstNations Aboriginal sort of
traits, values, norms that mightfit into that health and safety
(10:28):
structure?
Rick (10:28):
I look at the work that's been done on your side of the
ditch, Greg with a great deal ofenvy and I'm genuinely jealous
at the framework that has beendeveloped and promoted by TRMA.
It's something that I look atand when I was first shown
through the document, I I got alittle bit angry because I was
like, Oh my God, this isamazing.
(10:49):
But to your point, there aresimilarities between First
Nations culture and Maoriculture and Pacifica culture in
terms of, the collectivistnature and emphasizing that the
well being of the community isgreater than the well being or
individual achievement of oneperson.
So collaboration andconsultation is incredibly
(11:13):
important.
And I think it's one of thosethings, even in a Western
culture, I don't think it's donetremendously well.
Consultation and collaboration.
Understanding that lever for aFirst Nations community is about
understanding the benefit to thegroup, to the mutual, to the
community.
(11:34):
That's a big deal.
Greg (11:37):
Yeah, look, I think you're right.
Probably use I would talk aboutengagement.
And of course, it's a word andit's a concept within the
legislation that's inherent partof it.
And it's probably the keycomponent of the legislation
from a relationship perspective,worker, PCBU.
And I think organizations justget so stuck on, I've got to
(12:01):
have a rep and I've got to havea committee or a toolbox meeting
and full stop.
And I just think some of theseopportunities around engagement
you talk about collaboration andconsultation.
There's just so manyopportunities to show true
engagement through otheractivities rather than just a
(12:23):
toolbox meeting.
Is that some of the work thatyou would be doing?
Up in those, some of thosecommunities.
Rick (12:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
So instead of focusing on atoolbox talk or focusing on a
committee meeting we'd have ayarn.
So getting people in a circle noone stands out in the circle,
everyone's equal.
And that's really important.
You can show your respect.
to others by engaging with themrespectfully.
(12:50):
You can also identify if you'vetriggered something or if, okay
I may need to explore that alittle bit personally later down
the track.
But yeah, we talk about it interms of let's have a yarn,
let's really understand whatyou're doing.
And there's some great storiesfrom the North from the top end
of Australia that I walked awaygobsmacked, And just shaking my
(13:13):
head, wow, I can't believe Ijust heard that.
But that was just pushing myselfto, engage with the people how
they like to be engaged with andnot coming in as the safety guy,
it's coming in As a respectful,inquisitive Wiradjuri man in a
different country to those I wasspeaking to, but understanding
that the respect is the thingthat, that was going to bind
(13:36):
this whole engagement.
Greg (13:38):
And you say, you use the term yarn, and I know in
Pacifica culture Talanoa is aword that's used to describe
exactly what you're talkingabout.
We've come to work.
Let's just have a chat aboutanything, get to know each other
and then go and, do the formalsort of work related things.
And I think that goes a long wayto creating trust within the
(14:00):
group.
And, And yeah, so I think thatvery similar approaches across
those two cultures and then, ofcourse, Māori's got got similar
approaches in some of the waysthat that things are done in
that in that culture.
Is there anything else specificto Aboriginal culture that That
would be really good for healthand safety people to know, and
(14:21):
just as by way of example, it'sa cultural norm, that you don't
put anything to do with yourhead on the same table that you
eat from.
So if a, if a Pākehā supervisorcomes into the lunchroom in a
forestry block and puts hishardhat on the table, then
that's a deal breaker type ofscenario.
(14:43):
And that's not hard to know thatsort of stuff.
Is there anything from anAboriginal perspective that that
might be useful for safetyprofessionals to, to know about
before they go in and startengaging with that culture?
Rick (14:54):
There are so many different nations within
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander culture.
To give you a hard and fast,rule, Greg, would be would
probably.
Put myself in a compromisingposition for one camp or
another.
Yep.
But I will say, here's somethings to consider.
Eye contact.
(15:15):
Now, in, in some parts of thecountry, some some parts of some
nations in in Australia, eyecontact, it's a sign of respect
and we understand each other.
In other parts of the country,eye contact, it's or a lack of
eye contact is actuallypreferred.
Direct eye contact seemsconfronting, it seems very,
(15:36):
aggressive.
But so eye contact.
So the simple way to get aroundthat is to just ask, how would
you like me to engage with you?
What's your preferred method?
And there's other little bitsand pieces.
In some parts of the country, insome parts of the islands up
north it would be improper for aman to just, approach a approach
(15:58):
a female and just say, starthaving a casual conversation.
You would need an ally, or you'dneed someone to, an advocate, or
someone to facilitate thatconversation.
Whereas other parts of theisland in the Torres Shire,
that's not a problem.
That's not an issue whatsoever.
Whilst I can't give you any hardand fast I guess rules, what I
(16:20):
can say is try and be a littlebit informed.
Try and understand where you'regoing.
If you are going into toWarribindershire Council, as an
example it's isolated country.
When I say isolated it's an hourand a half to your next major
town.
But there's very little elsearound there.
(16:41):
And so they're dry communitiesas well, largely, in Aboriginal
Shire Councils.
So understanding that a drycommunity driving, no alcohol,
no drugs, anything like thatyou're not going to go in and
start having a conversationabout how you're looking forward
to knocking off at five o'clockand going to the pub.
It's understanding the littlenuances and being respectful And
(17:05):
particularly when, if you're ina position of employing First
Nations people that, that startsvery much from the interview
process.
How do, how would you like to beengaged?
And the strong bond of kinshipin Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander people.
It may seem like they are aloofor uninterested or, they, their
(17:25):
absenteeism may be a wee bithigher.
But that is probably largely dueto the fact that they're looking
after other kin within theirfamily and things like that.
So there's all these little allthese little things that you
can, if you're really curious,you can find out about, you can
have respectful conversationsand and be mindful, I think.
(17:46):
And look, that, we have clientsthat are almost 99.
9 percent Vietnamese in, in oneof the factories here in
Queensland.
The same rules apply.
I'm not a Vietnamese man.
I need to know what the rules ofengagement are.
Greg (18:05):
Yeah, look, so much in there, and I think I pick up on
your point about, not reallyhaving a one size fits all
answer, and absolutely that'strue, I think, for all cultures,
and we talk about differentcultural clusters around the
world, and it's not aboutstereotyping and saying That all
Anglos do this, or all Māori arelike this it's, it's a starting
(18:27):
point.
It's not trying to, as I say,it's not trying to say everybody
in that group is like that.
It does help if you, as you say,do some research.
know a little bit about whatyou're going into, and it's a,
again, it's a key component ofbecoming more culturally
intelligent.
It's, is that planning, thatresearch into the environment
(18:49):
that, you're going into and andunderstanding some of those
nuances and some of those, justthose little things that might
be specific to that particularcountry, part of the country,
state whatever it might be.
Rick (19:02):
No, absolutely.
And also, I guess Greg that's itfor safety professionals who do
want to engage with FirstNations communities in
Australia.
Another thing to keep in mindFor the most part, a lot of the
communities were throwntogether.
These councils were given sortof land or they were missions
(19:24):
and so on and so forth.
So to a large extent, some ofthese communities are actually
re identifying who they are aspeople and as a culture.
And it's a really interestingjourney to watch them be a part
of as well.
And sitting back and trying tounderstand, okay, how can I be
respectful how can I play mypart in helping this community
(19:46):
remain safe and have youngpeople thriving in the
community.
It's an honour that we have.
It's an honour that I really seeas as pivotal to what we do at
FR&NK and just having thatlittle bit of curiosity, it goes
a long way.
Greg (20:03):
It's word of the decade at the moment, isn't it?
Curiosity and and I think it'sreally important and just trying
to understand the perspective ofthe other person.
You don't have to agree with itbut at least if you understand
somebody else's point of viewand then you can, you can move
forward with whatever theproject might be that you're
working on.
(20:24):
And I think also to your some ofthose things that you talk about
it said over here quite a bitthat, that a lot of te ao Māori
approaches to various things aretotally appropriate for other
cultures.
And as you're talking, I'mlistening to some of the things
that you're saying and how itwould be good to engage with
(20:44):
Aboriginal culture and you gowhy wouldn't, it's your Vietnam
story.
Why wouldn't it just be the samefor everybody?
Because actually it's just aboutbeing a good human a lot of the
time.
It's not about Māori or Pacificaor Aboriginal or French or
whatever it might be.
I think there's a lot to belearnt from just, being a good
person and treating otherpeople.
(21:05):
I think on of the days of thatsaying, what was the saying?
do unto others as you'd havedone unto you.
Actually that's just totallywrong, isn't it?
It's do unto others as theywould like to be done unto, if
that's the right way of puttingit.
Treat people how they want to betreated because it's probably
different to how you want to betreated.
Rick (21:23):
I think that's that's exactly right, Greg, and I'm not
sure what the I'll agree withyou because I know what you
mean.
Have a bit of a saying, whichis, curiosity with respect.
And having curiosity is onething, but, having curiosity
with respect, you mentioned, we,we won't always agree.
With another way, or we won'tagree with the way someone's
(21:47):
doing something.
The first time that I saw aranger with a crocodile a
saltwater crocodile and a rangerin a little dinghy trying to
wrangle this crocodile, I'mlike, Oh my God, what am I
watching here?
What's happening?
And I you can stand back anddigest it a little bit and then
you ask a question.
Hi.
Is there another.
A vessel, another boat that youcould use for this.
(22:08):
And actually the stategovernment bought us a big boat
because, they thought they weredoing the right thing, but it
turns out that the wall of theboat is too high and we're at
greater risk of falling in if weuse that boat.
So we've gone back to our dinghybecause it works.
And you're like, okay, cool,you've got a process.
Greg (22:29):
And I think you find that a lot, don't you?
You ask those couple ofquestions and all of a sudden
some stuff becomes a little bitmore clearer and I guess that's
why there's been a little bit ofa backlash over the last few
years, hasn't there, about someof these videos and photos that
get put on LinkedIn andpeople's, saying, what an idiot,
why would you do this?
(22:49):
When actually, We don't know thefull story.
We've got a very small image ona screen and you don't know what
else is going on until you talkto whoever's involved.
Rick (23:00):
Context is key.
And if you don't know thecontext, if you don't have an
understanding of why someone isdoing something, you don't know
what's going on.
Observe, ask questions.
If your spidey senses aretelling you, Oh my God, there's
something really off about this.
There's certainly a way to havethat conversation.
But it's a respectfulconversation that you're having
from a place of care and empathyfor that other human, because
(23:24):
inherently we do what we do,Greg.
Because we want better forhumans.
We want better for the humanrace.
We want to be safer tomorrowthan we were today.
And that's our goal.
Doing that, asking thosequestions respectfully, that's
how we do it.
Greg (23:41):
I hear you're going to visit the, come over the ditch
In a couple of weeks, or a fewweeks time, I think by the time
this episode airs, it'll be acouple of weeks until you're
coming over, and I believe thatyou're going to be front and
center on the stage at theSafeguard Conference.
And without getting me intotrouble with the Honorable Peter
Bateman is there anything youcan tell us about what we might
expect to hear from you at theSafeguard Conference?
Rick (24:04):
I'd expect more conversations and more narrative
around saltwater crocodiles.
No, not to give too much away.
Yeah, Peter would would climbinto it, into me as soon as I
landed.
But I'm going to be sharing ayarn about the work that we've
been doing with those FirstNations organizations.
And I guess.
Tying that into the wonderfulwork that is happening with
(24:25):
Māori people and, the fantasticwork that's already happening on
your side of the ditch.
And as I said before I'm like,criminally jealous of some of
that beautiful work.
And it's lit a fire under me toactually get some people
together to start that process.
And over in New Zealand, Iexpect to share a yarn.
I, hopefully I hear some laughsbecause there's probably going
(24:48):
to be some jokes in there atsome stage.
But I'm also going to be sharingthe stage with some other
esteemed people talking aboutI'll be facilitating a bit of a
myth busting session intopsychosocial hazards as well.
That's not going to be we'veonly agreed to it if we can kind
Derail the stayed and dare I sayboringness of psychosocial.
(25:10):
It seems to have been the topicof conference for the last two
years.
So we're going to derail thatand we're going to do some myth
busting which should be fun.
It should be interestinghopefully challenging because
there's a lot of great work outthere in that space.
But I think there's also a lotof.
Confusion and misunderstandingand if we can approach it with a
(25:31):
bit of humor and have some keytakeaways, I think that's the
right tip.
Greg (25:35):
You mentioned just for people that might be listening
that would, might not know, youmentioned TRMA which is Te Ropu
Maratau O Aotearoa, which is theMāori Health and Safety
Association, and I was actuallyat their conference a couple of
weeks ago now where they talkedabout their new I guess Worker
Wellbeing Program HaumaruTangata which you'll be hearing
(25:55):
more about over, coming weeksand months.
And yeah, it's really Cool tosee work being done to
indigenise health and safety andmake it relevant for people that
it's relevant to rather thantrying to navigate stuff that
maybe doesn't make sense.
Rick (26:12):
No, that's exactly right.
There's such a passion for it aswell.
And really brief conversationwith Vance Walker and, talking
me through The wonderful workthat's being done over there.
I can't wait to get over there.
I can't wait to connect withother safety professionals on
that side of the ditch and ourhope is we're certainly not
coming over from Australia andthinking I'll come on, we'll
(26:36):
show you how it's done.
I'm coming over to share a yarnand I'm coming over to connect
with as many people as possibleas well.
And the life of a safetyprofessional can be a lonely one
at times, you're not necessarilythe most popular person in the
room.
When you get a collective groupof safety professionals together
it's always great to keep it upvibe and add a bit of humor.
Greg (26:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Any last comments?
Any last tips?
I, to be honest, I don't knowwhat the Aboriginal population
in New Zealand is.
I wouldn't have a clue.
I suspect it's probably nothuge.
So I don't know if your averagesafety professional is going to
run into too many Aboriginalpeople in workplaces here.
(27:17):
I don't know.
What would your thoughts be onthat?
Rick (27:19):
I would suggest you're right.
I don't think it would be hugeat all.
Based on the last censusfigures, there's probably a tick
over a million people withinAustralia that identify as
Aboriginal or First Nationspeople.
I'd argue that there's probablyvery few, in relation to
(27:40):
population in New Zealand.
The only tips I can provide areprobably to take the approach
that you would when you'reworking with Maori and Pacifica
people, which is come at themwith a place, come at them with
respect from a place of empathyand understanding.
And as an Aboriginal person inanother culture, We're very
(28:03):
conscious of understanding howwe can be respectful in that
place as well.
Mutual respect goes a long way,Greg.
Greg (28:12):
Actually, I just finally want to just come back to the
comment you made right at thebeginning about just asking, How
you want to be, how can we bestengage?
And I think sometimes, I don'tknow, the majority, whatever the
majority might be, sometimes geta little bit apprehensive about
asking that question for fear ofbeing accused of being racist
or, whatever.
(28:33):
And the more I talk to peopleabout this, the more that people
from other cultures say, no,that's exactly, that's not The
right thing to do is to just askthat question.
And so yeah, absolutely.
A good good piece of advicehere.
Rick, Guwayu is that right?
Rick (28:51):
Yeah.
Guwayu Greg.
In Wiradjuri Guwayu means later.
So effectively, we don't say,goodbye, we say later.
So we believe we'll see you inthis lifetime or in the next.
Greg (29:02):
Awesome.
It's been great having you onthe show and I look forward to
catching up with you when you'rehere in June for the Safeguard
Conference.
And yeah, thanks so much forputting some time aside to have
a chat with me today.
Rick (29:13):
Greg, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me andGuwayu.
Thank you.
Greg (29:21):
I don't think I want to try and analyze this episode too
much, I'll leave it to you totake the many valuable comments
from Rick and consider how theymight apply in your business and
in fact your life.
Curiosity with respect, what awonderful way to think about how
we should engage with people whoare different from us.
(29:43):
Collaboration and consultationis an important aspect of
working across cultures andactually, if we think about
those words and apply it to therequirements around worker
engagement, These conceptsreally do deliver on that
obligation.
Typically in a Westernconstruct, we might go to a
toolbox meeting but as wediscuss in this episode that
(30:06):
might not work for everyone, soyou have to know your audience.
Maybe have a good yarn, or applyTalanoa or Karakia or waiata,
which might connect more withyour team.
Rick talked about eye contact asa significant cultural value to
understand with Aboriginalculture.
And the same applies to some ofthe cultures we work with a New
(30:29):
Zealand.
To some a lack of eye contactcan be seen as disrespectful.
when generally, the opposite istrue, and that it is a way of
respecting hierarchy orleadership, as Rick says.
Context is key.
This episode is a taster for theupcoming safeguard conference.
(30:49):
where Rick will be a keynotespeaker, getting into detail
about the work FR&NK has beendoing to support indigenous
communities.
For those of you heading to theconference on the 18th and 19th
of June and Auckland.
Catch up with Rick and have ayarn.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode.
(31:10):
Thanks so much for listening Ihope you found something
valuable that you can take awaythat might enhance aspects of
your own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes
and there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn, I'mposting content regularly so
(31:31):
keep an eye on your feed andcomment if you see something
that resonates.
If we aren't connected send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is Dr.
Catherine Wu who is a thoughtleader on global leadership and
(31:55):
interculturalism.
She's a passionate advocate forcultural diversity and is on a
mission to inspire 10 millioninterculturalists to connect
cultures and speak up fordiversity.
She is a lecturer at the NanyangBusiness School in Singapore
where she teaches in Asia's topNanyang MBA program and the
(32:16):
prestigious Nanyang Fellows MBAfor senior public sector
executives.
For me, this was a bucket listinterview, which we conducted
kanohi ki te kanohi orface-to-face in Singapore.
So once again, Grab a cuppa andimmerse yourself in this
episode.
(32:36):
Thanks again for tuning in tothe Culturally Intelligent
Safety Professional.
Ka Kitei
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