June 15, 2024 • 40 mins
Who would have thought I would get to meet and speak with Dr. Catherine Wu, and in her adopted city of Singapore. An expert in cultural intelligence Catherine, shared her journey from a small village in France to teaching in Asia. She emphasizes the importance of understanding cultural values and how they impact interactions in diverse environments.
In our short time together we covered a number of Key aspects related to CQ including:
1. Cultural Intelligence Framework: Dr. Wu discusses the four components of Cultural Intelligence (CQ): Drive, Knowledge, Strategy, and Action. These components are essential for effective adaptation and building positive relationships in multicultural settings.
2. Power Distance and Collectivism vs. Individualism: She delves into cultural values like power distance, which affects respect for authority and communication styles. Additionally, she explores how collectivist cultures prioritize group harmony over individual opinions, contrasting with individualistic cultures that emphasize personal accountability.
3. Challenges in Cross-Cultural Communication: Dr. Wu shares her personal struggle with communication styles, particularly in navigating the balance between directness and saving face, a common challenge in Confucianist cultures like those in Asia.
4. Practical Steps for Culturally Intelligent Leadership: She suggests that cultivating cultural intelligence begins with awareness and storytelling. Sharing personal experiences and cultural insights can help raise awareness and bridge understanding among team members, ultimately fostering a more inclusive and culturally intelligent workplace.
In essence, Dr. Wu highlights the importance of cultural sensitivity and effective communication in navigating diverse cultural landscapes, urging leaders to share their experiences to promote greater cultural understanding and collaboration.
If you want to hear more from Catherine and her students studying CQ, check out the range of Podcasts featuring Dr. Wu as presenter or in her Producer role.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcatherinewu/
- The Cultural Quotient – featuring Dr. Catherine Wu -
- CQ Leading with culture – Produced by Dr. Catherine Wu
- CQ WEESDOM - Produced by Dr. Catherine Wu
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this week I'm coming to youfrom Rochester in Singapore and
I'm here in person with somebodywho has set an absolutely
outstanding goal in the area ofcultural intelligence.
Dr.
Catherine Wu is a thought leaderon global leadership and
(01:26):
Interculturalism a passionateadvocate for cultural diversity,
and she's on a mission toinspire, get this 10 million
interculturalists to connectcultures and speak up for
diversity.
She's a lecturer at the NanyangBusiness School in Singapore,
where she teaches in Asia's topNanyang MBA program and the
(01:46):
prestigious Nanyang Fellows MBAfor Senior Public Executives.
Dr.
Catherine is best known for herthought provoking LinkedIn posts
and her engaging conversationson the Cultural Quotient
Podcast, the first podcast togrow your cultural intelligence
at work and in life.
Dr.
Catherine received her PhD fromthe Center for Leadership and
(02:07):
Cultural Intelligence inSingapore, which is the first
research center in the world onthe subject of cultural
intelligence.
She is French and has lived inAsia for the past 20 years.
She lives in Singapore with herTaiwanese American husband and
three third culture kids.
Catherine, I don't know whetherto say Bonjour or Ni Hao, but I
(02:29):
guess we might explore thatlater on.
But for now, welcome to theshow, and it's really great to
have somebody with yourexperience in CQ here today.
Catherine (02:39):
Great.
Nice to meet you, Greg, and I'mso glad that we got to meet in
person.
Thank you for making the stop onyour way back from London, just
specifically for meeting mehere.
Greg (02:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it's really great to haveyou here and I'm, just to start
off, really interested just tohear a little bit about you.
I've given a bit of an overview,but how did you end up teaching
CQ in Asia?
Catherine (03:04):
Wow where to begin?
I think it, I, we have to startfrom the start, right?
I grew up in a village in thesouth of France and I like to
say that in my village, there isno cultural diversity.
Everybody is white, everybodyspeaks French, some people have
traveled, been to other places,but very few have, In fact,
(03:25):
nobody have actually, move awayand spend their life abroad or
anywhere far away.
But somehow when I was growingup, I became fascinated by the
way people from other culturesand in the part of the world,
how do they live their lives andhow different it is from
anything I knew.
And so I decided that when I'm agrown up this is a life I want
(03:47):
to have.
I want a life where I havefriends all over the world and I
travel to different places and Idiscover how people live their
lives in other countries.
But No, that was just a dream.
And when I was 23 years old andI graduated from business school
I decided that I was not goingto wait for other people to
serve me my dream on the plate,which I knew would not, was not
(04:10):
going to happen and instead Idecided I was going to take my
destiny between my own hands,and so I say, no, instead of
looking for a job which I couldhave easily found, I Decided
that I was going to takewhatever money I had in the bank
and I bought myself a ticket toBeijing.
Yes.
And I thought, if I was going tohave an international life,
(04:31):
international career initially Ithought, okay, I'm, what can I
do to have that life?
I thought I'm going to be an HRmanager and I will help
expatriates.
But I thought if I'm going tohelp expatriates, I need to know
what is the experience ofadapting to a very different
culture.
I wanted to have a cultureshock.
Nice.
So I went to Beijing and I didhave a culture shock.
(04:53):
I had many of those.
But one thing led to another.
I spent four and a half years inChina and and then I was lucky
to get a scholarship to come toSingapore to study cultural
intelligence with people fromthe Center for Cultural
Intelligence and Leadership hereat the Nanyang Business School.
And it was not a smooth ride,but it was a fun journey.
(05:16):
And, for the past 15 years, I'vebeen here and mostly teaching
cultural intelligence andhelping people transform develop
these skills.
I think When I started my careerin China, I was doing cross
cultural training and a lot ofthe things I was doing was based
on cultural values, okay, theChinese are like this and the
French are like that, and theyare models, like models that
(05:39):
PhDs and professors andpsychologists that can allow us
to describe cultures andcompare, but this model didn't
reflect my reality.
On the, any given day, I had a,my boss was American, my
colleagues were Chinese, myfriends were Korean, my clients
were German.
And I felt like knowing how theChinese are and the French are,
(06:01):
it's not helping me at all withall these different
relationships.
And the other issue is, Even theChinese people I knew, my
colleagues, my friends, ourbusiness partners and all this,
often they were not exactly likewhat the book said, right?
So that was always a problem.
And when I came to Singapore tolearn about cultural
(06:22):
intelligence I remember thinkingthat, wow, this new concept of
cultural intelligence, it flipsthis idea of cross cultural
relation inside actually, it'soutside in.
I want to say outside in becausethe traditional mode of teaching
cross cultural communication isto look at them.
It's okay, the Chinese, theFrench, the Singaporean, the New
(06:43):
Zealanders, right?
But cultural intelligence, bringit back to me.
It's not about what I know aboutyou.
It's about The way I think it'sabout, I say developing habits
of minds, like different ways tochange the way we normally think
and to think differently so thatwe can learn and then we can
(07:05):
adapt more easily to any personthat we meet who come from a
very different culturalbackground.
Greg (07:11):
Yeah.
Yeah nice.
So let's get straight into it interms of the CQ content.
There's a framework that reallymakes up the basics of how we
learn about this stuff, andwe've got the four components of
CQ drive, knowledge, strategyand action, and we know that
(07:33):
they've been renamed from anacademic name, to these more
sort of understandable terms.
I'm just really interested tohear, your perspective of those
four components and I don'tknow, maybe what you tell your
students about what they mean.
Catherine (07:48):
The, I think the question about around cultural
intelligence, it started in the1990s here in Singapore and it
was driven by a question, why isit that some people who work in
multicultural teams,multicultural organizations, Do
so more effectively than othersand by effectively we mean that
(08:11):
these people are better atbuilding relationships with
their colleagues with theirbosses, with their clients, and
they can get things done moreeasily.
And maybe the way they, thereason they get things done more
easily or better at the higherlevel of performance is because
they are better at buildingthose relationships.
They have fewer conflicts,people like them more, they want
(08:32):
to help them, they want tocollaborate with them, right?
All of this.
So that was the end goal.
The end goal is what, why dosome people adapt better than
others in an environment wherethere is cultural diversity?
And traditionally, the waypeople research the skills, they
will go and they will observeand then they will interview
different people and say, okay,if you want the people who adapt
(08:56):
better to other culture, theyhave more empathy, they are more
open minded, they have, theyspeak more languages, they do
all these things, but, if I aska group of 100 people that
question what differentiates,what sets apart people who can
adapt well to other culturesfrom the ones who don't, I will
see, I will receive as manyresponses in the room as there
(09:16):
are people, right?
So then the question is, youhave these 100 attributes, what
do you do with that?
You are like a safety managerand you think that cultural
intelligence is helpful for yourteam.
And you look at this list andyou have so many attributes,
like how do you teach empathy?
How do you teach openmindedness, right?
It's not practical.
(09:37):
And if anything, it'soverwhelming.
How do I start?
Is it even possible to developthose skills?
So the researchers at myuniversity, at NTU, when they
took this approach and they saidthis is not working, we need to
find a better model, a modelthat can guide that can be used
for training and development.
(09:58):
And we know, and we need to knowthat this model directly linked
to better relationships andbetter performance on the job.
And so they did it backward andthey started by looking at,
okay, what is adaptation?
And if I ask you, what isadaptation?
I've already told you adaptationis getting the job done and
(10:18):
building better relationship.
Adaptation is.
Is define, is actually thedefinition of intelligence.
In psychology, intelligence isadaptation.
Is adaptation to the, aparticular environment.
Yep.
Now this is a commonmisunderstanding.
People think intelligence isabout, how well you do in school
(10:39):
and how good you are, butactually IQ is only your ability
to adapt to the demand of anacademic environment.
Yes, of course.
So that's the way it works.
So they started looking at thisand they say, what define
cultural, what defineintelligence?
Intelligence is about whathappened in your head, what
happened in your heart and whathappened in your body.
The head is the knowledge.
What do you know?
(10:59):
And the metacognition In CQ wecall that strategy.
It's how do you use yourknowledge to respond to
immediate situation that are infront of you.
Because you can be book smart,but if you cannot remember any
of this when you are facing asituation when you need it, the
knowledge is useless.
So this is a cognitive componentof intelligence.
(11:19):
And then you have this otherdimension.
One is that it's a motivation.
It's not enough.
To have all of this in yourhead, if you don't want to use
it, you're not going to.
So you need to have the drive,the motivation.
And the last one is about, youneed to be able to translate
what's in your head intosomething that other people can
see.
Because you might be reallysmart, but if every time you
open your mouth, you hurtsomebody's feelings, they won't
(11:40):
like you very much.
So that's the action component.
It's the one that you use tocommunicate with other people.
So that's the way the frameworkof cultural intelligence was
developed.
That's the thing that, I tell mystudents, but the, to me, what's
really important is, It startswith you, CQ, but the end goal
is this is adaptation is gettingthe job done and building
(12:03):
positive, relationship withpeople around us, even when they
are very different from us.
Greg (12:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that that I guess I'vetalked about that a little bit
in both a leadership context anda cultural intelligence context.
And that, yes, we see all thesewonderful quotes out there on
LinkedIn and other places aboutwhat leadership is.
Yeah.
But actually before it's any ofthat stuff, it's about you and
it's about your professional andpersonal development.
(12:31):
It's about you understanding alot about yourself.
Yeah.
And I think the same argumentcan be applied to CQ before you
can get to that end goal ofadaptation.
Yeah.
You've got to understandyourself.
Where did I come from?
Why do I make decisions thisway?
Why do I behave this way?
Et cetera, et cetera.
Catherine (12:47):
And that's an excellent point that you make
Greg in the sense that.
For anyone who, if you havelived abroad or if you have gone
to study abroad for some time,or if you have spent like some
time in a very differentcultural environment, that's
usually where people recognize,start thinking, oh, There's
(13:07):
something cultural about me, andusually there is this first
phase.
It's not the, we develop thisurge to not just learn about the
other culture, but actuallythere's this mechanism that we
say, Oh, now I need to learnabout my own culture.
So I remember when I went toChina within a year there, I
started like buying all thebooks I could get my hand on
about the French.
Because when you are in yourculture, when you are in your
(13:30):
natural environment, you neverquestion your culture because
that's all you know.
That's why people say culture islike a fish in water.
The fish doesn't know it's inwater until you get the fish
out.
I tell my people in Singapore, Itell them it's like breathing
air.
We never think about breathingair until we have a big clouds
of smoke from the wildfire inIndonesia that come and around
(13:52):
Singapore, and we cant breatheanymore, we have to wear a mask
and stay indoor, right?
So it's the same.
So it's like what you say, itstarts by understanding
yourself.
Only when you can put a name tocertain things that you do and
recognize that these things arenot the same everywhere else,
then you can go out in the worldagain and start negotiating
(14:15):
these cultural differences.
Greg (14:16):
I think David Livermore in one of his books said that the
Anglo culture is unnaturallyfocused on achievement.
Okay.
Suggesting that's our key focusis achieving something.
And that I guess he wassuggesting that other cultures
are not necessarily like that.
It's just a, just anotherexample.
Catherine (14:37):
Yes, it's true.
Although I will say it dependson the culture because I've
lived in China, I've lived inSingapore.
I think people don't.
Very driven to achieve it inthis culture.
Greg (14:47):
And so let's talk about that a little bit more.
We've talked about theframework.
Yeah.
And I guess aligned to thatframework is a whole bunch of
cultural values.
Yes.
That it's, that's part of thatunderstanding that if I'm
talking to a French person, I,might have some idea about some
(15:07):
of the key cultural values andhow to adapt when I'm in that
situation.
Let's just talk through a few ofthose and power distance is
probably one that many of theaudience might have heard of.
I think, the work done byHofstede, coined that term way
back.
And so if you think about powerdistance what comes to your mind
(15:28):
in a workplace setting aroundpower distance?
Catherine (15:31):
So power distance, I would say it's is associated
with, like any value, anycultural attribute will have
both benefits and disadvantage.
Okay, so power distance isassociated to respect for
authority and also a high levelof sensitivity to the social
(15:51):
order.
Yeah.
So when you encounter a culturethat has a high power distance,
People are going to first senseyou and they, in their mind,
even without realizing it, theyhave a certain number of
criteria that are going todetermine, help them determine
whether they should approach youas someone who is above them,
(16:12):
equal to them, or below them.
One example, I am French.
In France, when we speak topeople who are older, who are
more Senior who are higher in,in hierarchy, there is a, we do
not address them using the samepronoun than people who are
equal.
So in French the pronoun you inEnglish would have two different
(16:33):
different ways to say it.
The one would be tu, which wouldbe the casual like we are
friends, we are.
We are equal.
And then the other one would bevu.
Vu would mean showing respect tosomeone in authority.
In Chinese it's the same.
Chinese will use ním, whichmeans you as a friend, and nín
will be a different a differentstatus.
(16:55):
Already power distance It startsby if you grew up in a society
that is very hierarchical wherethere is this power distance,
you are already in your mind,even before I know you, I'm
going to determine how I need todecide how I should address you.
So that's the first thing.
And then how I should addressyou determine as well.
(17:15):
How I should behave around you.
So in high power distanceculture, for example, when
you're dealing with somebody whoyou judge is higher, than you,
you don't show yourself fully.
You don't, there are some thingsyou cannot say.
You act, you may use differentwords.
You may be more polite, moreformal.
I think in Japan, the Japanesedo that like very much.
(17:37):
They have different words tosay, in, in, when I'm with
somebody who is.
higher status, I have to show acertain person and that certain
person is more reserved, moreconstrained, my personality, I
have to just, who am I?
I am, I have to keep it very lowversus if I'm with my friends, I
(17:57):
can show my own self, right?
My personality.
So power distance is a verystrong determinant of people's
behaviors, especially in theleadership context.
The other thing is, Power,distance, determine so right now
we've spoken about especially ifyou are lower in a hierarchy,
typically when people seesomebody is a higher than them,
(18:19):
they will be less willing tospeak up, they will be they will
be more willing to agree withyou they will be less willing to
challenge the boss authority orwhatever the boss say, there
will be differences on how theyexpress this based on how, if
they are young or older, youngerpeople, it depends from, but you
(18:40):
have generational differencesbut still you will have that
level of respect.
Now power distance also affectshow the bosses behave.
Because in the high powerdistance culture, even though
you're supposed to show respectto people above you, when you
are in a position of authority,you have a lot more flexibility
and leeway in what kind ofbehavior is acceptable.
(19:00):
So you are more, it might bemore acceptable for you to be
demanding on people.
To maybe even sometimes raiseyour voice or certain, say
certain things.
There are differences dependingon which culture we're talking
about and variations.
But still, whereas people inpower, low power distance
cultures, and even in aleadership situation, the
(19:22):
behaviors are more constant.
People don't feel this need tochange and adjust their actions
and behaviors because they arewith the boss or because they
are with their subordinate.
There are fewer fewervariations.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think that's, sothat's a source of tension and
conflict when you're on yourteam.
Greg (19:41):
And it's interesting you talk about the lack of
willingness to speak up toauthority and certainly when
We've read books about thesafety industry or safety at
work.
There's a couple of industriesthat are highlighted in that
space and one is the airlineindustry.
So nobody, historically, I thinkit's changing, but people won't
challenge the pilot, yes, peoplewon't challenge the doctor, yes,
(20:05):
and sometimes I think also inhospitality, the waiters and
waitresses probably won'tchallenge the chef, maybe.
As I say, certainly in NewZealand, I think that's
changing.
But those are three sectorswhere that power distance, that
hierarchical sort of statusthing is showing up quite a lot.
Yeah, so another one toconsider, and actually before we
(20:28):
get into that, one of the thingsto I think to consider, and
you've touched on it is justbecause we're talking about um,
these values and we might talkabout particular cultures.
It's not a stereotypingdiscussion.
It's not saying that all.
Anglos are whatever.
It's just saying that typicallythat's what you might find.
Catherine (20:50):
So I think it's also, so these cultural differences or
these cultural models they areused, they are, they represent
an average.
So it's like you sample apopulation, maybe you interview
1000 people or 2000 people, Idon't know, different, those
models you find online, theywill have different methodology,
but generally the methodology isyou sample a portion of the
(21:13):
population and you look at theaverage.
Of course, it depends, right?
If you sample a group of MBAstudents they will have very
different approach to power thanif you sample somebody who is
working in like on the floor ofa factory but still it's an
average.
So that does not describeprecisely how every person you
(21:34):
meet is going to behave.
That being said, when you crosscultures, when you work with
people, so by culture, peoplewho come from a different
country, have a different, whogrew up, who have been Brought
up in a very different culturalenvironment, because I think
school is also a mean ofunifying or unique, creating
some level of uniformity withinthe culture, especially when it
(21:57):
comes to power, you learn torespect authority in school and
in your family, how you behavetowards your parents or how you
are, the kind of behavior yourparents expected from you, and
then your teachers expectingfrom you.
This is how you learn what is aproper way.
To relate to authority at first.
So these models come, arehelpful when you go, when you
(22:19):
compare other cultures, but it'salways relative.
Like for example, the French aremore high power distance, more
hierarchical than the Germans.
But when I came to Asia, I thinkthe French are still pretty low
power distance relative to,Singapore or China, the cultures
I'm more used to.
Yeah.
So It's more like a mental modelthat you use to anticipate some
(22:40):
problems, but of course then youhave to get to know the person
better.
Yeah, absolutely.
Can I make a second point?
Sure.
The second point is research hasshown that even within
countries, there are hugevariations in power distance and
attitudes toward power relatedto the social economic status of
people.
Yeah, okay.
and the level of education.
So if you are more highlyeducated, if you have more
(23:02):
opportunities to change yourjob, more like what they call
economic freedom, then you mayalso be more willing to
challenge authority than if youare an immigrant in a low
skilled job who is not sure thatit's going to work.
be able to, find another job thenext day.
This is beyond your own culturalupbringing.
(23:23):
This is also determined by yourlife circumstances.
Greg (23:25):
And from a migrant perspective, certainly in New
Zealand, that could challengetheir ability to stay in the
country even.
That's right.
If they challenge something andget in trouble for it or
whatever and lose their job,that's a ticket out of here.
So that's another reason.
From a safety perspective, whatwe find is that migrants are
less willing at times.
(23:47):
To report incidents andaccidents, of course, because
there might be consequences.
Yeah, which could be their job.
Yes, which could be theircountry, and back home and all
that.
So, and I guess while we'retalking about New Zealand
individualism and collectivism,we've obviously got a
significant Anglo majority inNew Zealand Likely to be
(24:12):
individualists.
Yes.
But we've also got quite adiverse migrant population,
Pacific Islanders, SoutheastAsians, who are likely to be
collectivists.
Do you see this playing out inworkplaces?
What, how does, what does thatactually look like?
And I guess, In this part of theworld, very collective.
What does that look like inworkplaces here?
Catherine (24:35):
So a student of mine once complained, he came from
Norway and he was, hecomplained, he didn't complain
to me, but he reflected, he saidthis sentence, he said, people
here are so competitive Ithought they were collectivist.
They should be nice to everyone.
And I like to say, we tend toassume that because you are an
(24:55):
individualist, you are moreselfish.
Think only about yourself.
Because you are morecollectivist, you should be nice
to everybody.
But I think this is amisconception.
Individualism means that Yoursense of accountability is to
yourself.
There's a sense ofresponsibility that is also
based on being an individual onits own that is independent and
(25:17):
do things for themselves.
Your survival does not depend onothers.
Your survival depends on yourability to survive on your own.
In collectivistic society isdifferent.
In collective society theaccountability and a sense of
responsibility is towardsothers, towards the referent
group.
Because this reference group isin charge is your life
(25:38):
insurance, is if something goeswrong for you, these are the
people who will have your back,who will support you no matter
what.
But this is not everybody.
These are only a group of peopleselect around you that you feel
that you can lean on to.
In the workplace, it depends.
In some cultures, people willsee in some collectivist
(25:59):
cultures, they will see theirteam as these people who will
have your back and will help yousurvive.
It's easier for this sense ofcollective connection to develop
when that team is made of peoplewho have similar cultural
background because they have a,because of their similar
cultural background, they havesimilar life experiences and
expectations of one another, sothey might cling on to each
(26:23):
other more tightly.
If your team is diverse, even ifyou are a group of immigrants
who are all collectivists, butthey come from different parts
of the world, they may havedifferent ways to build those
relationships and that trust.
That is the key.
But that doesn't mean that, sothese people may not be attached
to your organization, theultimately is about what, which
(26:45):
group we call the referencegroup is a group that give them
the sense that they can lean on,that will give them the sense of
safety.
I've heard stories in otherparts of the world where people
were totally disengaged at work,even though they were from a
very collectivist society,because their reference group
was a family.
(27:06):
And they had their allegiance,their their accountability was
to the family, less to the job.
So the job, you go there, you doit, you do what your boss tell
you, whether the company grow ornot, or whether People don't
feel that sense of attachment.
(27:27):
And actually the sense ofaccountability towards a group,
because in collectivisticsociety is so strong, in
individualistic society is lessstrong.
It's, you it's not always thatcollectivist societies tend to
be like, would bind togetheraround this goal of a company or
(27:47):
an organization.
So it creates some, it's not,that one is not very
straightforward.
Greg (27:52):
And so that's a couple that we've covered off on the
power distance and theindividualistic and
collectivism.
And as there's a bunch more.
And I'm sure we could spend allday talking about them.
I guess I just wanted to ask youyou, you're originally from
Europe.
Yes.
And you've been living here for20 years.
What's one cultural value thatis existent in Asia that really
(28:14):
you struggle with or that youhave a conflict with in terms of
mixing your French heritage withthe Asian culture here?
Catherine (28:22):
For me it's the communication.
Okay.
So in, in Asia I don't want tosay in Asia because it depends,
but in, in Confucianistcultures, there is a high level
of face is a big thing.
Yeah.
You have to save people's face.
Your communication is alwaysdirected towards others.
If I say things this way, is itsaving face for the other
(28:44):
person?
So French people can be quiteindirect when they have to say
things.
But, generally, there is still acertain level of directness,
especially when it comes togiving negative feedback, or
when people are unhappy withothers they, I feel like they
tend to say it a little bit moredirectly than people would do
(29:08):
here.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is this is the,being, This is something I
struggle with, is learning howto be tactful.
The other thing is, it's alsorelated to the communication and
saving face.
In many cultures in Europe, Iwould say in most cultures in
Europe, and this is common ofindividualistic cultures, truth
and transparency are very highlyvalued.
(29:30):
A lot more than preserving thefeeling of the other person.
So if I feel that wrong and itcan cause some damage or just
because it's just wrong.
I will be more willing to sayit, even if it's potentially
going to hurt your feelings ormake you look bad.
(29:50):
Whereas.
In Confucianist societies thathave a strong emphasis on
preserving faith, truth is lessimportant than relationship.
And so even if I see somethingbeing like really wrong being
done, I read, I'd rather hold itback because I don't want you to
look bad.
So I'll always give the exampleof one of my friend who's German
(30:12):
and she had the Singaporean bossand then the boss would say
something, let's do this orthat.
And she would tell the boss,this is a really bad idea.
Oh, you don't talk to your bosslike this.
Yes.
And she would say, but I don'tknow why you let me, okay.
He got mad at me.
I get it.
I'm too direct.
But at the same time, I knowthat if he does this, he's going
to hit a wall, like he's goingin the wrong direction and then
(30:33):
he wouldn't make him look bad inthe end.
Now that's not to say that inthese cultures, people don't say
when things sometimes they do,especially in Singapore, people
have a very high sense ofpersonal responsibility, but
they will not say directly.
They will find some other ways.
They would go and find somebodyelse that is trusted and say,
Hey, I have some reservationabout this or that.
(30:55):
So they will use more sideways.
Yeah.
Yeah, I come from a culturewhich is like, why go all the
long way if you can go the shortway, right?
So that's a problem.
Yeah.
For me, it's a work in progressand it's something really
difficult.
Greg (31:11):
Interesting.
Thank you for sharing that.
So I guess just as we start towrap this up, I know you're not
a safety professional.
Yes.
I think this whole culturalintelligence thing, my focus is
on safety professionals, butactually I think you can swap
out the word safety professionaland replace it with leader.
Okay.
And so I'm really interested ina couple of gems a couple of
(31:33):
bits of advice that you couldgive to the listeners about how
they can start down the path ofbeing more culturally
intelligent.
What are a couple of steps theycan take?
Yes.
I want to say that, first ofall, if they are listening to
this podcast, it means that theyalready have some level of
awareness that culture canreally affect the behaviors and
(31:53):
potentially the attitudes.
outcome of safety, safetycultures and safety initiatives.
Catherine (31:59):
So that already is really important.
The challenge I found is that,before you can go into training
yourself, you first need to havethe awareness.
Now there are people like you,Greg, who have more than the
awareness, I think.
When you tell me your storiesand you share with me your
examples, you have theawareness, but you also have the
(32:21):
cultural intelligence.
And what I tell people iscultural intelligence is not
something that you buy off ashelf and then you learn it.
It exists in natural form in theworld.
Researchers do not developmodels out of thin air.
They develop a framework andthen they go out in the world
and they see Do I see thesethings, I think, make a
(32:42):
difference?
And do they really make adifference?
They collect it.
They look at the performance,the relationship, the, all these
things that I've described ofthose people who have high
cultural intelligence or lowcultural intelligence.
But these people, they don'teven know what cultural
intelligence is.
So the first thing is to, I wantto say is that if you're already
listening this, you're alreadyon the journey to develop those
(33:03):
skills.
Maybe you already have thoseskills.
Now, I want to say what makesyou a culturally intelligent
leader is not just your abilityto develop those skills for
yourself, but it's your abilityto bring that awareness to the
people around you.
Because safety culture is notjust one person.
It's not about the manager.
It's about the leader and howthe leader develop the
(33:25):
sensitivity in his team so thateventually people can take over,
they will grow and they willbecome managers themselves.
So if they have one advice foryour listeners, and especially
people like you who are alreadyaware and have already developed
the skills to, a very goodlevel, even if they don't know
(33:46):
how to say this.
Begin by telling your stories.
Greg, you have so manyinteresting stories about small
things, cultural things aboutthat differences that you have
observed between people fromdifferent groups in the safety
context and how you can fix thisproblem really easily.
These stories They will helpsomeone who has no clue, someone
(34:07):
who has never encounteredanother culture or has never
thought about those differences.
By listening to those stories,they will start seeing things
they didn't see before.
They will start thinking aboutother people's behaviors in a
way that They had never thoughtof before, and then once they
have that awareness, then theywill be prepared, to learn more,
(34:31):
to read the books, to learnabout this cultural dimensions,
the theories and all of this.
So I think for leaders, what'sreally important is recognize
when you have really, if youhave, I say, if you have had
some success at leading acrosscultures, you have a culturally
intelligent story to tell thatcan help others.
(34:51):
I And to me, this is leadership.
It's your ability to elevate theskills, the talent of the people
around you to your level andbeyond.
Tell your story.
Greg (35:03):
Hey, it's been absolutely fantastic, as you say, to meet
in person for a start.
That was it was a greatopportunity that we've managed
to achieve that.
Really appreciate you puttingsome time aside to come and have
a chat.
Where can people get in touchwith you if they want to follow
you?
I know you're really keen tospread the word around the
(35:26):
world.
Where can they connect with you?
Yes the best way to connect withme is on LinkedIn.
Dr.
Catherine Wu.
Yes.
On LinkedIn.
I write stuff.
I try to write regularly.
I used to write every day andnow I had to take a step back,
but I write at least severaltimes a week about my thoughts
and and I'm especially I'mworking on a book right now.
Catherine (35:49):
And so if you follow me on LinkedIn, you may have a
first taste of some of thethoughts and ideas that I'm
developing in my book.
I also have a podcast, TheCultural Quotient podcast, where
I talk about culturalintelligence through my life
with my partner Ting Claraval,who is a manager in a consulting
company.
(36:09):
She's Filipina.
And she talks about also herlife of working in a
international organization as anAsian.
So these are the two best way toget in touch with me.
I just want to highlight, I havetwo more podcasts that I am more
the producer and Made by mystudents, my MBA masters
students who are professionals,diplomats, managers, people from
(36:32):
all walks of life who have deepexperience in working all over
Asia.
So if you are interested tolearn about what people from
different Asian cultures think,it's really going down into
their minds.
Yeah.
This two podcasts are great.
One is called CQ Leading withCulture and the other one is
called CQ Weesdom.
W E E S.
(36:52):
D O M.
And this one will give you likereal case studies from people
who have worked in organizationsall over Asia.
Greg (37:00):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Okay.
So three podcasts.
Yeah.
The the cultural quotient CQWeesdom.
Yes.
And the third one was?
CQ Leading with Culture.
Excellent.
Okay.
We'll put those in the shownotes and a link to your
LinkedIn profile.
LinkedIn.
And and we'll keep an eye outfor the book.
(37:22):
Is that out shortly?
Catherine (37:23):
No.
That one, I'm hoping for nextyear.
Greg (37:28):
Excellent.
Excellent.
We'll keep an eye out for that.
And look, just again, thanks somuch for spending some time with
me.
Catherine (37:34):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Greg.
Greg (37:36):
What a highlight to meet and speak with Dr.
Catherine.
Wu, an expert in culturalintelligence, some real gems on
that discussion.
Just to reflect we covered offon Catherine's approach to
explaining the four componentsof cultural intelligence or CQ,
those being drive, knowledgestrategy and action.
(37:59):
We explored Power distance andwe looked into collectivism
versus individualism.
And we also discuss thechallenges in cross-cultural
communication.
Catherine shared her personalstruggle with communication
styles between her Frenchupbringing and her life in Asia
particularly in navigating thebalance between directness and
(38:20):
saving face, a common challengein Confucianist cultures like
those in Asia.
We wrapped up with somepractical steps for culturally
intelligent leadership.
In essence Catherine highlightedthe importance of cultural
sensitivity and effectivecommunication in navigating
diverse cultural landscapes andurges leaders to share their
(38:42):
experiences to promote greatercultural understanding and
collaboration.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes,
(39:04):
and there'll be some otherresources as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
(39:27):
to this podcast I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is JodhiWarwick Ponga, Jodhi is a
trustee of Te Ropu Marutau OAotearoa and she's just coming
down from the highs of runninganother successful health and
safety conference held onceagain in Kirikiriroa Hamilton.
(39:50):
Jodhi is head of programs andapprenticeships at Vertical
Horizons and her career hasspanned various aspects of
training and education.
I'm looking forward to that one.
Thanks again for tuning into theCulturally Intelligent Safety
Professional.
Ka Kitei.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work,
it might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this week I'm coming to youfrom Rochester in Singapore and
I'm here in person with somebodywho has set an absolutely
outstanding goal in the area ofcultural intelligence.
Dr.
Catherine Wu is a thought leaderon global leadership and
(01:26):
Interculturalism a passionateadvocate for cultural diversity,
and she's on a mission toinspire, get this 10 million
interculturalists to connectcultures and speak up for
diversity.
She's a lecturer at the NanyangBusiness School in Singapore,
where she teaches in Asia's topNanyang MBA program and the
(01:46):
prestigious Nanyang Fellows MBAfor Senior Public Executives.
Dr.
Catherine is best known for herthought provoking LinkedIn posts
and her engaging conversationson the Cultural Quotient
Podcast, the first podcast togrow your cultural intelligence
at work and in life.
Dr.
Catherine received her PhD fromthe Center for Leadership and
(02:07):
Cultural Intelligence inSingapore, which is the first
research center in the world onthe subject of cultural
intelligence.
She is French and has lived inAsia for the past 20 years.
She lives in Singapore with herTaiwanese American husband and
three third culture kids.
Catherine, I don't know whetherto say Bonjour or Ni Hao, but I
(02:29):
guess we might explore thatlater on.
But for now, welcome to theshow, and it's really great to
have somebody with yourexperience in CQ here today.
Catherine (02:39):
Great.
Nice to meet you, Greg, and I'mso glad that we got to meet in
person.
Thank you for making the stop onyour way back from London, just
specifically for meeting mehere.
Greg (02:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it's really great to haveyou here and I'm, just to start
off, really interested just tohear a little bit about you.
I've given a bit of an overview,but how did you end up teaching
CQ in Asia?
Catherine (03:04):
Wow where to begin?
I think it, I, we have to startfrom the start, right?
I grew up in a village in thesouth of France and I like to
say that in my village, there isno cultural diversity.
Everybody is white, everybodyspeaks French, some people have
traveled, been to other places,but very few have, In fact,
(03:25):
nobody have actually, move awayand spend their life abroad or
anywhere far away.
But somehow when I was growingup, I became fascinated by the
way people from other culturesand in the part of the world,
how do they live their lives andhow different it is from
anything I knew.
And so I decided that when I'm agrown up this is a life I want
(03:47):
to have.
I want a life where I havefriends all over the world and I
travel to different places and Idiscover how people live their
lives in other countries.
But No, that was just a dream.
And when I was 23 years old andI graduated from business school
I decided that I was not goingto wait for other people to
serve me my dream on the plate,which I knew would not, was not
(04:10):
going to happen and instead Idecided I was going to take my
destiny between my own hands,and so I say, no, instead of
looking for a job which I couldhave easily found, I Decided
that I was going to takewhatever money I had in the bank
and I bought myself a ticket toBeijing.
Yes.
And I thought, if I was going tohave an international life,
(04:31):
international career initially Ithought, okay, I'm, what can I
do to have that life?
I thought I'm going to be an HRmanager and I will help
expatriates.
But I thought if I'm going tohelp expatriates, I need to know
what is the experience ofadapting to a very different
culture.
I wanted to have a cultureshock.
Nice.
So I went to Beijing and I didhave a culture shock.
(04:53):
I had many of those.
But one thing led to another.
I spent four and a half years inChina and and then I was lucky
to get a scholarship to come toSingapore to study cultural
intelligence with people fromthe Center for Cultural
Intelligence and Leadership hereat the Nanyang Business School.
And it was not a smooth ride,but it was a fun journey.
(05:16):
And, for the past 15 years, I'vebeen here and mostly teaching
cultural intelligence andhelping people transform develop
these skills.
I think When I started my careerin China, I was doing cross
cultural training and a lot ofthe things I was doing was based
on cultural values, okay, theChinese are like this and the
French are like that, and theyare models, like models that
(05:39):
PhDs and professors andpsychologists that can allow us
to describe cultures andcompare, but this model didn't
reflect my reality.
On the, any given day, I had a,my boss was American, my
colleagues were Chinese, myfriends were Korean, my clients
were German.
And I felt like knowing how theChinese are and the French are,
(06:01):
it's not helping me at all withall these different
relationships.
And the other issue is, Even theChinese people I knew, my
colleagues, my friends, ourbusiness partners and all this,
often they were not exactly likewhat the book said, right?
So that was always a problem.
And when I came to Singapore tolearn about cultural
(06:22):
intelligence I remember thinkingthat, wow, this new concept of
cultural intelligence, it flipsthis idea of cross cultural
relation inside actually, it'soutside in.
I want to say outside in becausethe traditional mode of teaching
cross cultural communication isto look at them.
It's okay, the Chinese, theFrench, the Singaporean, the New
(06:43):
Zealanders, right?
But cultural intelligence, bringit back to me.
It's not about what I know aboutyou.
It's about The way I think it'sabout, I say developing habits
of minds, like different ways tochange the way we normally think
and to think differently so thatwe can learn and then we can
(07:05):
adapt more easily to any personthat we meet who come from a
very different culturalbackground.
Greg (07:11):
Yeah.
Yeah nice.
So let's get straight into it interms of the CQ content.
There's a framework that reallymakes up the basics of how we
learn about this stuff, andwe've got the four components of
CQ drive, knowledge, strategyand action, and we know that
(07:33):
they've been renamed from anacademic name, to these more
sort of understandable terms.
I'm just really interested tohear, your perspective of those
four components and I don'tknow, maybe what you tell your
students about what they mean.
Catherine (07:48):
The, I think the question about around cultural
intelligence, it started in the1990s here in Singapore and it
was driven by a question, why isit that some people who work in
multicultural teams,multicultural organizations, Do
so more effectively than othersand by effectively we mean that
(08:11):
these people are better atbuilding relationships with
their colleagues with theirbosses, with their clients, and
they can get things done moreeasily.
And maybe the way they, thereason they get things done more
easily or better at the higherlevel of performance is because
they are better at buildingthose relationships.
They have fewer conflicts,people like them more, they want
(08:32):
to help them, they want tocollaborate with them, right?
All of this.
So that was the end goal.
The end goal is what, why dosome people adapt better than
others in an environment wherethere is cultural diversity?
And traditionally, the waypeople research the skills, they
will go and they will observeand then they will interview
different people and say, okay,if you want the people who adapt
(08:56):
better to other culture, theyhave more empathy, they are more
open minded, they have, theyspeak more languages, they do
all these things, but, if I aska group of 100 people that
question what differentiates,what sets apart people who can
adapt well to other culturesfrom the ones who don't, I will
see, I will receive as manyresponses in the room as there
(09:16):
are people, right?
So then the question is, youhave these 100 attributes, what
do you do with that?
You are like a safety managerand you think that cultural
intelligence is helpful for yourteam.
And you look at this list andyou have so many attributes,
like how do you teach empathy?
How do you teach openmindedness, right?
It's not practical.
(09:37):
And if anything, it'soverwhelming.
How do I start?
Is it even possible to developthose skills?
So the researchers at myuniversity, at NTU, when they
took this approach and they saidthis is not working, we need to
find a better model, a modelthat can guide that can be used
for training and development.
(09:58):
And we know, and we need to knowthat this model directly linked
to better relationships andbetter performance on the job.
And so they did it backward andthey started by looking at,
okay, what is adaptation?
And if I ask you, what isadaptation?
I've already told you adaptationis getting the job done and
(10:18):
building better relationship.
Adaptation is.
Is define, is actually thedefinition of intelligence.
In psychology, intelligence isadaptation.
Is adaptation to the, aparticular environment.
Yep.
Now this is a commonmisunderstanding.
People think intelligence isabout, how well you do in school
(10:39):
and how good you are, butactually IQ is only your ability
to adapt to the demand of anacademic environment.
Yes, of course.
So that's the way it works.
So they started looking at thisand they say, what define
cultural, what defineintelligence?
Intelligence is about whathappened in your head, what
happened in your heart and whathappened in your body.
The head is the knowledge.
What do you know?
(10:59):
And the metacognition In CQ wecall that strategy.
It's how do you use yourknowledge to respond to
immediate situation that are infront of you.
Because you can be book smart,but if you cannot remember any
of this when you are facing asituation when you need it, the
knowledge is useless.
So this is a cognitive componentof intelligence.
(11:19):
And then you have this otherdimension.
One is that it's a motivation.
It's not enough.
To have all of this in yourhead, if you don't want to use
it, you're not going to.
So you need to have the drive,the motivation.
And the last one is about, youneed to be able to translate
what's in your head intosomething that other people can
see.
Because you might be reallysmart, but if every time you
open your mouth, you hurtsomebody's feelings, they won't
(11:40):
like you very much.
So that's the action component.
It's the one that you use tocommunicate with other people.
So that's the way the frameworkof cultural intelligence was
developed.
That's the thing that, I tell mystudents, but the, to me, what's
really important is, It startswith you, CQ, but the end goal
is this is adaptation is gettingthe job done and building
(12:03):
positive, relationship withpeople around us, even when they
are very different from us.
Greg (12:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that that I guess I'vetalked about that a little bit
in both a leadership context anda cultural intelligence context.
And that, yes, we see all thesewonderful quotes out there on
LinkedIn and other places aboutwhat leadership is.
Yeah.
But actually before it's any ofthat stuff, it's about you and
it's about your professional andpersonal development.
(12:31):
It's about you understanding alot about yourself.
Yeah.
And I think the same argumentcan be applied to CQ before you
can get to that end goal ofadaptation.
Yeah.
You've got to understandyourself.
Where did I come from?
Why do I make decisions thisway?
Why do I behave this way?
Et cetera, et cetera.
Catherine (12:47):
And that's an excellent point that you make
Greg in the sense that.
For anyone who, if you havelived abroad or if you have gone
to study abroad for some time,or if you have spent like some
time in a very differentcultural environment, that's
usually where people recognize,start thinking, oh, There's
(13:07):
something cultural about me, andusually there is this first
phase.
It's not the, we develop thisurge to not just learn about the
other culture, but actuallythere's this mechanism that we
say, Oh, now I need to learnabout my own culture.
So I remember when I went toChina within a year there, I
started like buying all thebooks I could get my hand on
about the French.
Because when you are in yourculture, when you are in your
(13:30):
natural environment, you neverquestion your culture because
that's all you know.
That's why people say culture islike a fish in water.
The fish doesn't know it's inwater until you get the fish
out.
I tell my people in Singapore, Itell them it's like breathing
air.
We never think about breathingair until we have a big clouds
of smoke from the wildfire inIndonesia that come and around
(13:52):
Singapore, and we cant breatheanymore, we have to wear a mask
and stay indoor, right?
So it's the same.
So it's like what you say, itstarts by understanding
yourself.
Only when you can put a name tocertain things that you do and
recognize that these things arenot the same everywhere else,
then you can go out in the worldagain and start negotiating
(14:15):
these cultural differences.
Greg (14:16):
I think David Livermore in one of his books said that the
Anglo culture is unnaturallyfocused on achievement.
Okay.
Suggesting that's our key focusis achieving something.
And that I guess he wassuggesting that other cultures
are not necessarily like that.
It's just a, just anotherexample.
Catherine (14:37):
Yes, it's true.
Although I will say it dependson the culture because I've
lived in China, I've lived inSingapore.
I think people don't.
Very driven to achieve it inthis culture.
Greg (14:47):
And so let's talk about that a little bit more.
We've talked about theframework.
Yeah.
And I guess aligned to thatframework is a whole bunch of
cultural values.
Yes.
That it's, that's part of thatunderstanding that if I'm
talking to a French person, I,might have some idea about some
(15:07):
of the key cultural values andhow to adapt when I'm in that
situation.
Let's just talk through a few ofthose and power distance is
probably one that many of theaudience might have heard of.
I think, the work done byHofstede, coined that term way
back.
And so if you think about powerdistance what comes to your mind
(15:28):
in a workplace setting aroundpower distance?
Catherine (15:31):
So power distance, I would say it's is associated
with, like any value, anycultural attribute will have
both benefits and disadvantage.
Okay, so power distance isassociated to respect for
authority and also a high levelof sensitivity to the social
(15:51):
order.
Yeah.
So when you encounter a culturethat has a high power distance,
People are going to first senseyou and they, in their mind,
even without realizing it, theyhave a certain number of
criteria that are going todetermine, help them determine
whether they should approach youas someone who is above them,
(16:12):
equal to them, or below them.
One example, I am French.
In France, when we speak topeople who are older, who are
more Senior who are higher in,in hierarchy, there is a, we do
not address them using the samepronoun than people who are
equal.
So in French the pronoun you inEnglish would have two different
(16:33):
different ways to say it.
The one would be tu, which wouldbe the casual like we are
friends, we are.
We are equal.
And then the other one would bevu.
Vu would mean showing respect tosomeone in authority.
In Chinese it's the same.
Chinese will use ním, whichmeans you as a friend, and nín
will be a different a differentstatus.
(16:55):
Already power distance It startsby if you grew up in a society
that is very hierarchical wherethere is this power distance,
you are already in your mind,even before I know you, I'm
going to determine how I need todecide how I should address you.
So that's the first thing.
And then how I should addressyou determine as well.
(17:15):
How I should behave around you.
So in high power distanceculture, for example, when
you're dealing with somebody whoyou judge is higher, than you,
you don't show yourself fully.
You don't, there are some thingsyou cannot say.
You act, you may use differentwords.
You may be more polite, moreformal.
I think in Japan, the Japanesedo that like very much.
(17:37):
They have different words tosay, in, in, when I'm with
somebody who is.
higher status, I have to show acertain person and that certain
person is more reserved, moreconstrained, my personality, I
have to just, who am I?
I am, I have to keep it very lowversus if I'm with my friends, I
(17:57):
can show my own self, right?
My personality.
So power distance is a verystrong determinant of people's
behaviors, especially in theleadership context.
The other thing is, Power,distance, determine so right now
we've spoken about especially ifyou are lower in a hierarchy,
typically when people seesomebody is a higher than them,
(18:19):
they will be less willing tospeak up, they will be they will
be more willing to agree withyou they will be less willing to
challenge the boss authority orwhatever the boss say, there
will be differences on how theyexpress this based on how, if
they are young or older, youngerpeople, it depends from, but you
(18:40):
have generational differencesbut still you will have that
level of respect.
Now power distance also affectshow the bosses behave.
Because in the high powerdistance culture, even though
you're supposed to show respectto people above you, when you
are in a position of authority,you have a lot more flexibility
and leeway in what kind ofbehavior is acceptable.
(19:00):
So you are more, it might bemore acceptable for you to be
demanding on people.
To maybe even sometimes raiseyour voice or certain, say
certain things.
There are differences dependingon which culture we're talking
about and variations.
But still, whereas people inpower, low power distance
cultures, and even in aleadership situation, the
(19:22):
behaviors are more constant.
People don't feel this need tochange and adjust their actions
and behaviors because they arewith the boss or because they
are with their subordinate.
There are fewer fewervariations.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think that's, sothat's a source of tension and
conflict when you're on yourteam.
Greg (19:41):
And it's interesting you talk about the lack of
willingness to speak up toauthority and certainly when
We've read books about thesafety industry or safety at
work.
There's a couple of industriesthat are highlighted in that
space and one is the airlineindustry.
So nobody, historically, I thinkit's changing, but people won't
challenge the pilot, yes, peoplewon't challenge the doctor, yes,
(20:05):
and sometimes I think also inhospitality, the waiters and
waitresses probably won'tchallenge the chef, maybe.
As I say, certainly in NewZealand, I think that's
changing.
But those are three sectorswhere that power distance, that
hierarchical sort of statusthing is showing up quite a lot.
Yeah, so another one toconsider, and actually before we
(20:28):
get into that, one of the thingsto I think to consider, and
you've touched on it is justbecause we're talking about um,
these values and we might talkabout particular cultures.
It's not a stereotypingdiscussion.
It's not saying that all.
Anglos are whatever.
It's just saying that typicallythat's what you might find.
Catherine (20:50):
So I think it's also, so these cultural differences or
these cultural models they areused, they are, they represent
an average.
So it's like you sample apopulation, maybe you interview
1000 people or 2000 people, Idon't know, different, those
models you find online, theywill have different methodology,
but generally the methodology isyou sample a portion of the
(21:13):
population and you look at theaverage.
Of course, it depends, right?
If you sample a group of MBAstudents they will have very
different approach to power thanif you sample somebody who is
working in like on the floor ofa factory but still it's an
average.
So that does not describeprecisely how every person you
(21:34):
meet is going to behave.
That being said, when you crosscultures, when you work with
people, so by culture, peoplewho come from a different
country, have a different, whogrew up, who have been Brought
up in a very different culturalenvironment, because I think
school is also a mean ofunifying or unique, creating
some level of uniformity withinthe culture, especially when it
(21:57):
comes to power, you learn torespect authority in school and
in your family, how you behavetowards your parents or how you
are, the kind of behavior yourparents expected from you, and
then your teachers expectingfrom you.
This is how you learn what is aproper way.
To relate to authority at first.
So these models come, arehelpful when you go, when you
(22:19):
compare other cultures, but it'salways relative.
Like for example, the French aremore high power distance, more
hierarchical than the Germans.
But when I came to Asia, I thinkthe French are still pretty low
power distance relative to,Singapore or China, the cultures
I'm more used to.
Yeah.
So It's more like a mental modelthat you use to anticipate some
(22:40):
problems, but of course then youhave to get to know the person
better.
Yeah, absolutely.
Can I make a second point?
Sure.
The second point is research hasshown that even within
countries, there are hugevariations in power distance and
attitudes toward power relatedto the social economic status of
people.
Yeah, okay.
and the level of education.
So if you are more highlyeducated, if you have more
(23:02):
opportunities to change yourjob, more like what they call
economic freedom, then you mayalso be more willing to
challenge authority than if youare an immigrant in a low
skilled job who is not sure thatit's going to work.
be able to, find another job thenext day.
This is beyond your own culturalupbringing.
(23:23):
This is also determined by yourlife circumstances.
Greg (23:25):
And from a migrant perspective, certainly in New
Zealand, that could challengetheir ability to stay in the
country even.
That's right.
If they challenge something andget in trouble for it or
whatever and lose their job,that's a ticket out of here.
So that's another reason.
From a safety perspective, whatwe find is that migrants are
less willing at times.
(23:47):
To report incidents andaccidents, of course, because
there might be consequences.
Yeah, which could be their job.
Yes, which could be theircountry, and back home and all
that.
So, and I guess while we'retalking about New Zealand
individualism and collectivism,we've obviously got a
significant Anglo majority inNew Zealand Likely to be
(24:12):
individualists.
Yes.
But we've also got quite adiverse migrant population,
Pacific Islanders, SoutheastAsians, who are likely to be
collectivists.
Do you see this playing out inworkplaces?
What, how does, what does thatactually look like?
And I guess, In this part of theworld, very collective.
What does that look like inworkplaces here?
Catherine (24:35):
So a student of mine once complained, he came from
Norway and he was, hecomplained, he didn't complain
to me, but he reflected, he saidthis sentence, he said, people
here are so competitive Ithought they were collectivist.
They should be nice to everyone.
And I like to say, we tend toassume that because you are an
(24:55):
individualist, you are moreselfish.
Think only about yourself.
Because you are morecollectivist, you should be nice
to everybody.
But I think this is amisconception.
Individualism means that Yoursense of accountability is to
yourself.
There's a sense ofresponsibility that is also
based on being an individual onits own that is independent and
(25:17):
do things for themselves.
Your survival does not depend onothers.
Your survival depends on yourability to survive on your own.
In collectivistic society isdifferent.
In collective society theaccountability and a sense of
responsibility is towardsothers, towards the referent
group.
Because this reference group isin charge is your life
(25:38):
insurance, is if something goeswrong for you, these are the
people who will have your back,who will support you no matter
what.
But this is not everybody.
These are only a group of peopleselect around you that you feel
that you can lean on to.
In the workplace, it depends.
In some cultures, people willsee in some collectivist
(25:59):
cultures, they will see theirteam as these people who will
have your back and will help yousurvive.
It's easier for this sense ofcollective connection to develop
when that team is made of peoplewho have similar cultural
background because they have a,because of their similar
cultural background, they havesimilar life experiences and
expectations of one another, sothey might cling on to each
(26:23):
other more tightly.
If your team is diverse, even ifyou are a group of immigrants
who are all collectivists, butthey come from different parts
of the world, they may havedifferent ways to build those
relationships and that trust.
That is the key.
But that doesn't mean that, sothese people may not be attached
to your organization, theultimately is about what, which
(26:45):
group we call the referencegroup is a group that give them
the sense that they can lean on,that will give them the sense of
safety.
I've heard stories in otherparts of the world where people
were totally disengaged at work,even though they were from a
very collectivist society,because their reference group
was a family.
(27:06):
And they had their allegiance,their their accountability was
to the family, less to the job.
So the job, you go there, you doit, you do what your boss tell
you, whether the company grow ornot, or whether People don't
feel that sense of attachment.
(27:27):
And actually the sense ofaccountability towards a group,
because in collectivisticsociety is so strong, in
individualistic society is lessstrong.
It's, you it's not always thatcollectivist societies tend to
be like, would bind togetheraround this goal of a company or
(27:47):
an organization.
So it creates some, it's not,that one is not very
straightforward.
Greg (27:52):
And so that's a couple that we've covered off on the
power distance and theindividualistic and
collectivism.
And as there's a bunch more.
And I'm sure we could spend allday talking about them.
I guess I just wanted to ask youyou, you're originally from
Europe.
Yes.
And you've been living here for20 years.
What's one cultural value thatis existent in Asia that really
(28:14):
you struggle with or that youhave a conflict with in terms of
mixing your French heritage withthe Asian culture here?
Catherine (28:22):
For me it's the communication.
Okay.
So in, in Asia I don't want tosay in Asia because it depends,
but in, in Confucianistcultures, there is a high level
of face is a big thing.
Yeah.
You have to save people's face.
Your communication is alwaysdirected towards others.
If I say things this way, is itsaving face for the other
(28:44):
person?
So French people can be quiteindirect when they have to say
things.
But, generally, there is still acertain level of directness,
especially when it comes togiving negative feedback, or
when people are unhappy withothers they, I feel like they
tend to say it a little bit moredirectly than people would do
(29:08):
here.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is this is the,being, This is something I
struggle with, is learning howto be tactful.
The other thing is, it's alsorelated to the communication and
saving face.
In many cultures in Europe, Iwould say in most cultures in
Europe, and this is common ofindividualistic cultures, truth
and transparency are very highlyvalued.
(29:30):
A lot more than preserving thefeeling of the other person.
So if I feel that wrong and itcan cause some damage or just
because it's just wrong.
I will be more willing to sayit, even if it's potentially
going to hurt your feelings ormake you look bad.
(29:50):
Whereas.
In Confucianist societies thathave a strong emphasis on
preserving faith, truth is lessimportant than relationship.
And so even if I see somethingbeing like really wrong being
done, I read, I'd rather hold itback because I don't want you to
look bad.
So I'll always give the exampleof one of my friend who's German
(30:12):
and she had the Singaporean bossand then the boss would say
something, let's do this orthat.
And she would tell the boss,this is a really bad idea.
Oh, you don't talk to your bosslike this.
Yes.
And she would say, but I don'tknow why you let me, okay.
He got mad at me.
I get it.
I'm too direct.
But at the same time, I knowthat if he does this, he's going
to hit a wall, like he's goingin the wrong direction and then
(30:33):
he wouldn't make him look bad inthe end.
Now that's not to say that inthese cultures, people don't say
when things sometimes they do,especially in Singapore, people
have a very high sense ofpersonal responsibility, but
they will not say directly.
They will find some other ways.
They would go and find somebodyelse that is trusted and say,
Hey, I have some reservationabout this or that.
(30:55):
So they will use more sideways.
Yeah.
Yeah, I come from a culturewhich is like, why go all the
long way if you can go the shortway, right?
So that's a problem.
Yeah.
For me, it's a work in progressand it's something really
difficult.
Greg (31:11):
Interesting.
Thank you for sharing that.
So I guess just as we start towrap this up, I know you're not
a safety professional.
Yes.
I think this whole culturalintelligence thing, my focus is
on safety professionals, butactually I think you can swap
out the word safety professionaland replace it with leader.
Okay.
And so I'm really interested ina couple of gems a couple of
(31:33):
bits of advice that you couldgive to the listeners about how
they can start down the path ofbeing more culturally
intelligent.
What are a couple of steps theycan take?
Yes.
I want to say that, first ofall, if they are listening to
this podcast, it means that theyalready have some level of
awareness that culture canreally affect the behaviors and
(31:53):
potentially the attitudes.
outcome of safety, safetycultures and safety initiatives.
Catherine (31:59):
So that already is really important.
The challenge I found is that,before you can go into training
yourself, you first need to havethe awareness.
Now there are people like you,Greg, who have more than the
awareness, I think.
When you tell me your storiesand you share with me your
examples, you have theawareness, but you also have the
(32:21):
cultural intelligence.
And what I tell people iscultural intelligence is not
something that you buy off ashelf and then you learn it.
It exists in natural form in theworld.
Researchers do not developmodels out of thin air.
They develop a framework andthen they go out in the world
and they see Do I see thesethings, I think, make a
(32:42):
difference?
And do they really make adifference?
They collect it.
They look at the performance,the relationship, the, all these
things that I've described ofthose people who have high
cultural intelligence or lowcultural intelligence.
But these people, they don'teven know what cultural
intelligence is.
So the first thing is to, I wantto say is that if you're already
listening this, you're alreadyon the journey to develop those
(33:03):
skills.
Maybe you already have thoseskills.
Now, I want to say what makesyou a culturally intelligent
leader is not just your abilityto develop those skills for
yourself, but it's your abilityto bring that awareness to the
people around you.
Because safety culture is notjust one person.
It's not about the manager.
It's about the leader and howthe leader develop the
(33:25):
sensitivity in his team so thateventually people can take over,
they will grow and they willbecome managers themselves.
So if they have one advice foryour listeners, and especially
people like you who are alreadyaware and have already developed
the skills to, a very goodlevel, even if they don't know
(33:46):
how to say this.
Begin by telling your stories.
Greg, you have so manyinteresting stories about small
things, cultural things aboutthat differences that you have
observed between people fromdifferent groups in the safety
context and how you can fix thisproblem really easily.
These stories They will helpsomeone who has no clue, someone
(34:07):
who has never encounteredanother culture or has never
thought about those differences.
By listening to those stories,they will start seeing things
they didn't see before.
They will start thinking aboutother people's behaviors in a
way that They had never thoughtof before, and then once they
have that awareness, then theywill be prepared, to learn more,
(34:31):
to read the books, to learnabout this cultural dimensions,
the theories and all of this.
So I think for leaders, what'sreally important is recognize
when you have really, if youhave, I say, if you have had
some success at leading acrosscultures, you have a culturally
intelligent story to tell thatcan help others.
(34:51):
I And to me, this is leadership.
It's your ability to elevate theskills, the talent of the people
around you to your level andbeyond.
Tell your story.
Greg (35:03):
Hey, it's been absolutely fantastic, as you say, to meet
in person for a start.
That was it was a greatopportunity that we've managed
to achieve that.
Really appreciate you puttingsome time aside to come and have
a chat.
Where can people get in touchwith you if they want to follow
you?
I know you're really keen tospread the word around the
(35:26):
world.
Where can they connect with you?
Yes the best way to connect withme is on LinkedIn.
Dr.
Catherine Wu.
Yes.
On LinkedIn.
I write stuff.
I try to write regularly.
I used to write every day andnow I had to take a step back,
but I write at least severaltimes a week about my thoughts
and and I'm especially I'mworking on a book right now.
Catherine (35:49):
And so if you follow me on LinkedIn, you may have a
first taste of some of thethoughts and ideas that I'm
developing in my book.
I also have a podcast, TheCultural Quotient podcast, where
I talk about culturalintelligence through my life
with my partner Ting Claraval,who is a manager in a consulting
company.
(36:09):
She's Filipina.
And she talks about also herlife of working in a
international organization as anAsian.
So these are the two best way toget in touch with me.
I just want to highlight, I havetwo more podcasts that I am more
the producer and Made by mystudents, my MBA masters
students who are professionals,diplomats, managers, people from
(36:32):
all walks of life who have deepexperience in working all over
Asia.
So if you are interested tolearn about what people from
different Asian cultures think,it's really going down into
their minds.
Yeah.
This two podcasts are great.
One is called CQ Leading withCulture and the other one is
called CQ Weesdom.
W E E S.
(36:52):
D O M.
And this one will give you likereal case studies from people
who have worked in organizationsall over Asia.
Greg (37:00):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Okay.
So three podcasts.
Yeah.
The the cultural quotient CQWeesdom.
Yes.
And the third one was?
CQ Leading with Culture.
Excellent.
Okay.
We'll put those in the shownotes and a link to your
LinkedIn profile.
LinkedIn.
And and we'll keep an eye outfor the book.
(37:22):
Is that out shortly?
Catherine (37:23):
No.
That one, I'm hoping for nextyear.
Greg (37:28):
Excellent.
Excellent.
We'll keep an eye out for that.
And look, just again, thanks somuch for spending some time with
me.
Catherine (37:34):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Greg.
Greg (37:36):
What a highlight to meet and speak with Dr.
Catherine.
Wu, an expert in culturalintelligence, some real gems on
that discussion.
Just to reflect we covered offon Catherine's approach to
explaining the four componentsof cultural intelligence or CQ,
those being drive, knowledgestrategy and action.
(37:59):
We explored Power distance andwe looked into collectivism
versus individualism.
And we also discuss thechallenges in cross-cultural
communication.
Catherine shared her personalstruggle with communication
styles between her Frenchupbringing and her life in Asia
particularly in navigating thebalance between directness and
(38:20):
saving face, a common challengein Confucianist cultures like
those in Asia.
We wrapped up with somepractical steps for culturally
intelligent leadership.
In essence Catherine highlightedthe importance of cultural
sensitivity and effectivecommunication in navigating
diverse cultural landscapes andurges leaders to share their
(38:42):
experiences to promote greatercultural understanding and
collaboration.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript fromthis episode to the show notes,
(39:04):
and there'll be some otherresources as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly sokeep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ you can follow and subscribe
(39:27):
to this podcast I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Next week's guest is JodhiWarwick Ponga, Jodhi is a
trustee of Te Ropu Marutau OAotearoa and she's just coming
down from the highs of runninganother successful health and
safety conference held onceagain in Kirikiriroa Hamilton.
(39:50):
Jodhi is head of programs andapprenticeships at Vertical
Horizons and her career hasspanned various aspects of
training and education.
I'm looking forward to that one.
Thanks again for tuning into theCulturally Intelligent Safety
Professional.
Ka Kitei.
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