June 22, 2024 • 40 mins
Jodhi Warwick Ponga, a trustee of Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa, discussed her career and involvement in health and safety, alongside her role at Vertical Horizons. She began with a diverse background in engraving, signwriting, and screen printing before transitioning to health and safety through roles in a software company managing 20,000 workers across New Zealand and Australia. Her journey led to consultancy and eventually to her current role heading programs and apprenticeships at Vertical Horizons.
She elaborated on Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa (TRMA), the Māori Health and Safety Association, which started informally in 2017 and has grown into a charitable organization with around 60-70 members. TRMA focuses on providing advice, training, mentoring, and hosting conferences to support Māori health and safety practitioners.
Jodhi highlighted Haumaru Tāngata, a framework developed through research by Te Whare Wānanga o Awanuiārangi and funded by ACC. This framework aims to address higher workplace harm statistics among New Zealand Māori in high-risk industries like forestry and construction. It offers a culturally responsive approach to health and safety, enhancing workplace practices without replacing existing systems.
Haumaru Tāngata is structured around four components: principles (Ngā rau), cultural practices (Ngā āra tikanga), interventions (Ngā kōkiri), and outcomes (Ngā hua). It integrates Māori values and practices into workplace health and safety, promoting a holistic approach that considers wellbeing alongside safety.
Regarding implementation, Jodhi emphasized the importance of engaging Māori workers as cultural advisors within their workplaces rather than seeking external consultants. TRMA supports organizations through a self-assessment tool and provides guidance based on 20 questions aligned with Haumaru Tāngata's principles.
Overall, Jodhi's work underscores the significance of culturally informed approaches in improving health and safety outcomes for Māori workers, advocating for inclusive practices that respect and integrate Māori values into everyday workplace operations.
https://www.trma.co.nz/haumaru-tngata-overview
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Episode Transcript
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Greg (00:01):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:42):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:06):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
Today I'm
talking to Jodhi Warwick Ponga,Jodhi is a trustee
of Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa and she's just coming
down from the heights of runninganother successful health and
safety conference held onceagain here in Kirikiriroa,
(01:29):
Hamilton.
Jodhi is head of programs andapprenticeships at Vertical
Horizons and her career hasspanned various aspects of
training and education.
Kia ora, Jodhi great to
be here with you, and I'm really grateful that you've
taken the time to have a chatwith me.
Jodhi (01:45):
Ngā mihi, kia ora Greg.
Greg (01:47):
Before we get into discussions about Te Ropu and
the conference and HaumaruTangata, I'm really keen to hear
more about your work and yourcareer and, how you ended up
here at Vertical Horizons.
Jodhi (02:02):
Awesome.
Alright.
Gosh, where do I start?
I have a very eclectic CV Iguess you could call it.
My trade background is that I'man engraver and a signwriter and
a screen printer so I did thatstraight out of uni.
I didn't last very long in uni,didn't really enjoy it too much
the first time round.
So my dad actually said to mewhen I dropped outta uni, I was
(02:23):
doing law and he said to me,you're not going to stay with us
unless you go and either get adegree or you do a trade.
So I had to go and find a tradeand my trade is my background.
So it's really helped me in myhealth and safety professional
roles as well.
So after that, I did it.
I dabbled a bit in bankingnothing flash.
(02:44):
Spent some time in Australia Iserved a mission for my church
as well during that time.
And then I fell into health andsafety.
So I fell into it through asoftware company called Obsidium
at the time.
So we managed 20, 000 workersthroughout New Zealand and
Australia and I was the client.
I worked my way up.
Within a year to be the clientservices manager.
(03:06):
So I managed my team and Imanaged to the councils in
Australia and in New Zealand andabout 60 clients in New Zealand.
So yeah, about.
20, 000 workers all in all.
And then I moved intoconsultancy after that finished
off some of my studies in healthand safety and have worked with
Vertical Horizons for about 10years off and on.
So both as a contractor, andthen I moved into the Māori
(03:29):
Pacifica team where I workedManaged that and then took a bit
of time off and worked atWaihanga Ara rau which is a
Workforce Development Councilfor a year last year And then
came back to Vertical Horizonsas the head of programs and
apprenticeships.
So It's been a very busy 10years, I must say.
Yep,
Greg (03:49):
So you're a trustee of we call it TRMA.
Yes, Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa.
That's the one, the Māori Healthand Safety Association.
And, just getting that off theground a few years ago must have
been a real outstanding effortand something that I guess
you're all really proud ofachieving.
And I remember attending a huiback, I think it was about 2018
(04:13):
in Whakatane with, I think thatwas before it was launched, and
it was, getting somestakeholders together and just
having a kōrero about about,what it could achieve, and now
in 2024, you're celebrating, oras I said before, you've come
down from the highs of running asecond successful conference.
So tell us a little bit aboutTRMA
Jodhi (04:33):
So TRMA Yeah, like you said, it started around 2017 it
was just a, actually acollection of a few Māori health
and safety practitioners andprofessionals who got together,
and they were essentially juststarting or catching up and
having a cup of tea every monthor so, and then They invited
Vance along to be part of it andVance said, Hey, he was working
(04:54):
for WorkSafe at the time and hesaid, Hey, WorkSafe will fund
the kai if you want to hold ameeting.
So he managed to get some fundstogether and they, we held our
first like formal kind ofmeeting around 2018.
And then we continued fromthere.
So it was just a handful ofhealth and safety practitioners
who wanted to get together tosupport each other who were
(05:15):
Maori.
And then it expanded from there.
So we're a charitableorganisation, we have a small
board of seven trustees.
And like any Māori organization,it's done on the smell of an
oily rag and lots of aroha andlove.
But yeah, we've grown intohaving a membership now.
Our membership, I think, istotaling around 60 to 70
(05:38):
formally paid we tend to havequite a good following.
We don't profess to be anythingamazing or big, but we're
definitely working to grow ourmembership.
But more than anything, we wantto provide a service, and this
service is about providingadvice, training, mentoring, and
then also to add conferences andevents to that, just to support
(05:58):
those who may not be members.
Yeah.
We're very focused on makingsure that the resources that we
provide are funded by otheragencies, and where possible our
services are free.
Greg (06:10):
Cool, cool and proud to say that I'm one of those paid
up members.
And am I right in sayingmembership hasn't yet been open
for a year?
Jodhi (06:22):
Yeah, that's correct yeah.
It might be close to a year, butBarely.
We officially opened it, I thinkit was Late last year.
It took us a while to figure outthe logistics of it.
Yeah, so barely a year.
Greg (06:37):
And as you say you've got a good following.
It was unfortunate I couldn'tattend the first conference, but
I know that sold out.
Jodhi (06:44):
Yeah, it sold out.
We had we thought we'd get 200if we're really, like things
went well.
We ended up having 400 andalmost 450 people in attendance.
This year was down on lastyear's, but it was still really
successful.
We already have people askingabout it next year.
Greg (07:02):
I think you committed, didn't you?
I think.
Somebody committed at theconference and said, yeah, see
you next year.
Yeah, after that we went, welooked at each other and just
went, oh no.
Look, I think I wouldn't bedisappointed about being down.
I think every conference isreally struggling for the
people's dollar and I guess it'sa significant decision to make
(07:26):
as to which conference to go to,but I think, your message is
starting to gain momentum.
Lots of people interested and asyou say, you've started to get
quite a following, certainlyfrom what you see online and
hear around the place.
And let's just talk about, your,is it your sort of big project,
(07:52):
which is this Haumaru Tāngataframework.
Yes.
It's pretty new to the market,it's not been around for long,
really.
Jodhi (08:02):
Yeah, about a year as well.
Officially it was launched atour last conference.
So that was April 19th, 2023.
Yep.
So that was its official launch.
I think we went to print with athousand and we're up to a third
print.
Yeah.
So we've gave away aconsiderable amount, but it's
now available on our TRMAwebsite as well, anyone can
(08:25):
download it.
Greg (08:26):
So let's just let's just talk through the Haumaru Tāngata
framework and just tell me alittle bit about it.
Jodhi (08:32):
Sure.
So the, this came about becauseof three years worth of
research.
The project was actually led byTe whare wananga o awanuiarangi
and it was funded by ACC.
So the intent was to understandwhy New Zealand Māori had higher
statistics in terms of forworkplace harm.
Yep.
And The intent after that wasactually to discover it,
(08:56):
understand it, research it, andthen to produce a document.
So out of it, the research, wefound that this was what was
needed.
So Haumaru Tāngata is aframework which provides a guide
for intervention and investmentfor health and safety for Māori
employed in high riskindustries.
So the intent is high riskindustries.
Places that were researched weremostly around our forestry and
(09:19):
also construction.
And we also know that fishingthey have some high rates of
injury for Māori.
And we know that Māori areoverrepresented in all of the
negative statistics in regardsto harm in the workplace.
So the framework is set about tosupport any organization who
would like to take a more Māoricentered approach towards their
(09:41):
health and safety.
So it doesn't replace yourhealth and safety system.
It's an add on to, and it's away in which you can deliver a
message and also engage betterwith Māori.
So the expectation is that thisis a Māori centred model that
provides meaningful examples, Iguess you could say, or more
(10:03):
Meaningful understanding of howyou can implement a culturally
responsive workplace practice.
Greg (10:09):
OK, so we're talking about this before, and I guess what
we'll do is we'll go through,the key components of it, but I
guess firstly, can you explainwhat, if any, difference or
similarities there are betweenthis and Te Whare Tapa Whā.
Obviously, Te Whare Tapa Whā issomething, in my opinion, that
(10:31):
most health and safetyprofessionals would be familiar
with, we know it's used as partof the Safe Plus training and
it's always referenced by peoplein terms of when they start
talking about wellbeing andhealth, so what's the difference
or the similarities between thetwo?
Jodhi (10:49):
That's a really interesting Question.
Te Whare Tapa Whā is a model ofwellbeing.
So it's been around for about 40years.
So it's based on Sir Mason Druryand his model that he developed.
So Te Whare Tapa Whā is anotherframework, another model.
So Haumaru Tāngata is anadditional model that you can
(11:10):
add to your kete or your bag.
There are multiple wellbeingmodels out there, both for
Māori, Pasifika and otherindigenous cultures and non
indigenous cultures, but this isjust another model that we can
use.
As we were talking before wecame online, I guess you could
say, is that A professional, apractitioner, should know
(11:32):
multiple models.
And they should be able to useit and be agile enough, so that
when one, one framework or modeldoesn't work, you can actually
lean on another model.
In my own practices, I use TeWhare Tapu Whā as a guiding
model, but I also use HaumaruTāngata to help me in how I
(11:53):
engage with Māori.
I also use Te Wheke, which is afurther model.
So Te Wheke or the octopus, whenyou think of an octopus, it has
eight Tentacles and those eighttentacles can have a function
for each, but there are sometimes when certain areas or
functions are weaker and thenall the tentacles or those
(12:16):
available resources should moveinto that area.
So I use Te Wheke in my ownpractices as a manager, where if
I see my staff we have a regularcatch up and there may be a
staff member who's particularlyoverwhelmed with their workload,
we will act like Te Wheke.
The octopus and then move overto look after and support that
(12:36):
person in their workload or intheir well being.
And then when they're at balanceagain, using the Te Whare Tapu
Whā model, they're at balance,then we can move back and spread
our resources again.
So Haumaru Tāngata in this senseis about how we can employ some
of the te ao Māori practicesinto our own health and safety
(12:58):
workplace practices.
Greg (13:00):
Cool.
So let's dig into HaumaruTāngata, it's got four component
parts to it.
Ngā rau, which is itsprinciples.
Ngā āra tikanga and I guess,Many will understand the word
tika from what we see in theconstruction industry with, the
(13:21):
pre qualification programTōtika, tika being the correct
way of doing things, ngā kōkiri,which is activities and
interventions, and ngā hua,outcomes and measures.
So I'd really just, yeah, let'sspend some time just going
through each of those andtalking about what they're all
about.
So you're founding principles.
Jodhi (13:40):
Yes.
So when we think about ourfounding principles, or ngā rau
we actually have them brokeninto seven separate principles.
So our first one is rau tangata,which is the well being of the
individual.
So specifically when we thinkabout rau tangata or well being,
This section actually focuses onhow are we presenting
(14:02):
information to our whānau thatwork within our workplaces is
the information accessible andis it good information, does it
reflect the people who work inthat workplace.
So say for instance, we have inforestry, there's a high number
of Māori.
So when you look at how youpresent yourself, or perhaps
(14:22):
some of the marketing materialsthat you use some of the SOPs
that you may have within thebusiness, your standard
operating procedures, do they,are they reflective of the
individuals who work in thatorganisation?
Does it reflect your workers?
Yep.
So that's that's a little bitabout Rau tangata.
We also have some others.
So there's Rau Whāraki, which isabout holistic integration.
(14:45):
It's Is the material that we'reproviding, has it been
indigenized?
Are there certain aspects of itwhich really build on the, the
way in which Māori want to seethings?
They talk about pedagogy andpedagogy is the way in which you
present information and shareinformation.
So Māori, we love storytelling.
Sure.
(15:06):
We love metaphors.
So are you sharing theinformation in a storytelling or
a metaphor way so that it'sEasily understood.
Yep.
But there's there's a whole lotof different parts within this.
We also have cultural values.
Are they reflected within youryour health and safety systems?
So some of the things that wevalue within Māoridom is
(15:28):
tangihanga.
So is there an allowance and anunderstanding of the importance
of Māori actually?
Taking part in tangihanga orfunerals and knowing that a
tangi or a funeral is not just acouple of hours at a church
service, it actually can be alonger service.
And there's also a year later,there's a period where we go
(15:48):
back and we also come backtogether again for the
unveiling.
Are we reflective of ourcultural values and whānau?
Greg (15:57):
There was a couple of things in the Rau Tangata
section that I'd when I wasreading through this.
And the interesting bit thatI've highlighted here is the
replacement of the word healthwith wellbeing which I think is
intended to create more of aholistic approach to a person
(16:17):
which, follows with I guessTikanga, and also if we think
about cultural intelligence oneof the cultural values, I
suppose within the culturalintelligence framework is
individualistic or collectivismand Maori, not all Maori, I
would assume, because we're notsuggesting that the cultural
(16:38):
intelligence framework is thereto provide or create a
stereotype, but Māori would bemore collectivist culture, doing
things for the group rather thanfrom an individual perspective,
and as I say, I'm notnecessarily suggesting that
applies to every single Māoriperson.
Jodhi (16:56):
Yeah, I think there's actually there's actually more
to it than just being acollectivist.
It's actually beingintergenerational as well.
So if you think about Māori andthe way in which we live our
lives many of us, In the past,and continue to live in this
way, we live veryintergenerationally.
So our homes are filled with, itliterally takes a village to
(17:18):
raise a children for many Māorifamilies.
So we are involved in everydaylife together.
So that's grandparents, that'simmediate family, that's uncles,
aunties, cousins.
But it's not just the living,it's also the past.
Yes.
And it's also the ones who arestill to come as well.
Yes.
So when we think ofintergenerational behaviours we
(17:39):
are thinking of what am I doingto this person that could affect
their future generations aswell?
So the concept of mana, whilstit's not clearly written in
Haumaru Tāngata and underpinningof many of our cultural values
is this concept of mana ormanatangata.
(17:59):
So Manatangata is.
So if you think about mana,let's take mana first.
So mana is a, an authority.
It's a standing within yourcommunity.
It's a it's a, I'm trying to,it's like an essence that you
hold.
But it's not something that youyourself created.
(18:24):
You were born with thisbirthright or this mana by way
of who your familial lines are.
So if you're, if your parentsand your grandparents and your
great grandparents and all ofthose had mana, you were born,
you will be born with a certainmana.
And then how you grow your manais by your acts and your
contributions.
within your community and yourwhānau and those external to
(18:47):
you.
So mana can grow, but also manacan be diminished.
So by your choices that youmake, your mana will diminish.
When you're not tika, your manawill diminish.
When you harm another, your manawill diminish.
But you can also diminishsomeone else's mana.
(19:07):
by doing something thatbelittles them or harms or
embarrasses them.
In our practices, we have tothink about, am I doing
something that is mana enhancingof the individual?
Because if I diminish theirmana, I have not only diminished
(19:27):
their mana, I may havediminished the mana of their
family, their children that areyet to come, and their familial
lines that have already passedon.
So it's a, it's quite a big dealto diminish someone's mana.
So one of the biggest manadiminishing things that can
occur is actually a workplaceincident where there has been
(19:49):
harm.
So if someone is harmed and itmeans that they cannot work,
they cannot then contribute totheir community.
So if they have harmedthemselves and perhaps they were
very big in playing sports orthey're involved in community
activities, they can no longerdo that, their mana is becoming
eroded.
(20:10):
So when we're in a workplace andwe are actively eroding one's
mana through our poor workplacepractices.
That has a massive effect on,intergenerationally, on Māori
and their whānau.
Greg (20:24):
And you can then, see how Haumara Tāngata could be used to
promote, I don't know if that'sthe right word, but remind?
I don't know if Māori workersneed reminding of some of that
tika that, that could be theoutcome.
Not, not in a blaming way butjust saying this is what we're
all about.
(20:45):
And I guess if you were tryingto implement this, would you be
suggesting that you would needsome sort of cultural advisor to
help you along the way?
Jodhi (20:55):
To a certain extent, yes.
At the moment we have we've gotfunding.
So TRMA has funding to support30 organizations.
So we have created anassessment.
It can be a self assessment, butwhat we're actually doing is
we're working with organizationsto answer 20 questions.
They're based on HaumaruTāngata, so they're simple
(21:15):
questions they're yes noquestions, but it's in order for
us to gain to start them to toquestion, I'm going to ask them
about do, what's one of thequestions?
I've got it in front of me.
The first question is, do ourcommunication efforts reflect
Maori values and culture?
And it's yes, no question.
A lot of the times people willgo, oh, I don't think so.
(21:36):
We're trying to actually changethe way in which our website
works.
We were trying to add a moreculturally inclusive website.
And then that goes from being ano to actually a yes.
You're actually trying And thenwe have a, it's not a service
per se, but that whoever will beworking with you of those 30
organizations, one of thetrustees will be able to give
(21:58):
you some, rather than culturaladvice, it's actually gonna be a
cultural mentor.
Because we find that it's easyto get the advice.
But what's hard to do isactually implement the advice
and to actually have that softspot to talk to, that soft
person to actually go, how aboutyou try it this way instead?
Or maybe you could maybe youcould add a little bit more of
(22:20):
some of the values into yourwebsite and kind of embed that
into the way that you are, butit's to have someone to bounce
ideas off.
I think that's a lot of timesbecause I've had a few calls
from people and sometimes wejust need a softly approach,
which is what we want to provideis a softly approach, but also
an honest approach.
And sometimes, the truth can behard.
(22:41):
So when it's someone, it's a loteasier.
Greg (22:44):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So go back to that questionabout, does your website or
your, your policies or yourprocedures reflect culture,
indigenous culture, Māoriculture.
I've just heard from so manypeople around and had
conversations with people aboutthe rights and wrongs of having
company policies that, thatshould or shouldn't end with nā
mihi.
(23:04):
Or people using karakia and yougo is that a tokenistic thing
that you're doing because youthink you should, or is it
genuine?
And I think there's a lot ofpeople in organisations that
really struggle and don't know.
As I say, I had I had somebodycontact me that said they had
been using Ngā mihi just becausethey thought it was something
nice to do, and they've beeninstructed by their organization
(23:27):
to stop doing it.
And also the other way around,where the organization might
have said blanket rule.
This is our signature.
This is our email signature, andit's got Nanamihi in it and
people are going, oh, is thatthe right thing to do?
So I guess having that.
I guess that, that knowledgeablevoice of your cultural mentor
(23:48):
might help decision making in,is what we're doing right.
And the karakia one'sinteresting.
I spoke to a group of Māoriworkers on the side of the road,
in the middle of what nowhere,doing a Safe Plus assessment,
and I asked them about karakia,and the were, why would we do
that at work when we do it athome?
It's already done.
(24:08):
We don't need to do it when wego to work, yet it's been talked
about in workplaces.
Not a lot of workplaces, I don'tthink, but some workplaces are
using it.
And yeah, it's just about tryingto understand what's the right
thing to do and how you might goabout that.
And so would that be somethingif we moved on from the
(24:31):
Principles to the next section,which is your focus areas.
Talk to me about whether that,is that the practical
implementation of theprinciples?
Jodhi (24:41):
Yes.
So there are activities andinterventions.
The focus areas are broken down.
So it's actually set up with therau, so those who may be
familiar with some of the oldschool audit standards you had
like elements.
And then there were sectionswithin the elements, which were
like the sub elements.
So the rau are the elements andthen the ngā ara are the actual
(25:08):
sub elements.
And then the next part, the ngākōkiri, are the kind of the
guidance and the breakdown ofit.
And then ngā hua are thebreakdown.
So it's a breakdown of what youwould expect it to look like.
So Haumaru Tāngata is very muchlaid out to, if you're familiar
with auditing, you'll be like,Oh, I get it.
(25:29):
I see it.
So we have actually got, sowe've developed An actual full
audit using Haumaru Tāngata.
We've just left it to the sidebecause what we realized, we
developed it last year andrealized, hmm, this is probably
better for auditors.
And we moved on and we're like,no, let's move to this, the 20
questions, because that 20questions will then help the
(25:52):
individual organizations tobetter implement Haumaru Tāngata
without saying like 60 questionswhich a normal auditor will go,
oh that's all right.
But though I have to say thisthe breakdown of it is specific
to the rau.
So the focus areas that you'retalking about all link into the
(26:13):
rau itself.
We have developed, if I was tostep back a bit and go back to
talking about the selfassessment has its intent so
that it can break down andyou'll understand which areas
are probably not your strongestareas.
And from that, we are creatingresources to support you in each
of those areas.
So we actually have createdkarakia, we do have a waiata,
(26:35):
Um, for workplaces who don'thave a karakia and they're
looking for something that's nondenominational, open to anyone
so that they can feel confidentand comfortable to offer that.
But just if I was to go backabout tokenism and how we see it
with Yeah.
I would say, if I was to giveany advice, I would say to you
(26:57):
That you don't necessarily needa cultural advisor, but what you
do need to do is actually engagewith your workers.
If you have Māori in yourworkplace, you already have
cultural advisors.
You already have culturalmentors.
So why do you need to go outsideand seek external advice when
(27:20):
you have internal expertsalready?
Greg (27:23):
And I think that, if I was to bang my own drum about
cultural intelligence, that'sexactly what cultural
intelligence is about.
Actually, if you become moreculturally intelligent, then
that is going to enhance yourwork engagement.
Processes and systems andapproaches.
And I like the bit that we justfocus on the karakia component
(27:46):
and you've talked about that alittle bit and it talks about
having a karakia specific toyour workplace or your industry.
And as you say, Maybe you canget all of the cultures together
and you come up with anon-denominational approach.
Jodhi (28:02):
It can be for all iwi, it can be pan tribal or if you are
working in an industry that isspecific to it or here, or a
region or an area or an iwi.
You actually may have tribalmembers already in your
workplace, so go to them.
There is nothing more manaenhancing for an individual to
(28:24):
be asked for their support.
So when you go outside of yourown workplace and seek a
cultural advisor outside ofthat, it's actually mana
diminishing for your workers.
So it's a simple act of Someonewho you've never thought of who
could offer that.
It's a simple act of askingthem.
I I spoke in one article that Iwrote on LinkedIn.
(28:46):
I spoke about how the someone ona lolly, holding a lollipop,
traffic management that they'vehighly skillful role may highly
esteemed in the world, but thatmay be the greatest orator that
you ever have on the marae.
So the mana is.
massive when they're on themarae, but the moment they go
(29:07):
into another world, it's not asvalued.
So this is about valuing thepeople that you already have.
Greg (29:13):
And so there's the nā ara components to that, and it's
probably about six or seven ofthem, and then sitting below
that or following on from it isthe nā kōkiri, so the activities
and the interventions.
So this is, getting a little biteven more specific and
practical.
(29:34):
And I guess that is where itseems to be the place where
you're going to really need thatinput from your people, because
there's not a lot of writinghere telling you the answers,
right?
So you need to get, got a bit ofan overview about knowledge and
training here.
Highlight the need for existingtraining programs to be reviewed
and Māori pedagogies, beincorporated into the design
where possible.
So what does that actually mean?
(29:54):
In reality, maybe that needssome input from your workforce.
Jodhi (29:59):
Exactly.
You do need, you really do needto engage.
So part of the, part of all ofthis is that there's this, we've
got the foundational principlesand we've got focus areas and
activities and interventions.
The activities and theinterventions are the, this is
what we should be doing.
This is the value that ourpeople can actually have to
(30:20):
support us to indigenize ourworkplace.
So absolutely go back to yourown workers.
To find out what are theirneeds, what are their wants, and
how they would like to seethings improved in terms of
cultural responsiveness.
Greg (30:34):
Yep, cool.
And then the last section isoutcomes and measures, and it
looks like they are based on theprevious chapter of Ngā Kōkiri,
and this is your KPIs, right?
This is your outcomes and yourKPIs.
Have we achieved anything?
What does this achievement looklike?
Good, bad, or could be improved,or whatever.
Um, and there you've got a, Iguess a, as you say, a framework
(30:58):
for indigenising your approachto health and safety.
Jodhi (31:01):
Yeah, I I really have to say this, is that a lot of
organisations, when we presentedHaumaru Tāngata, a lot of people
were sending their Māoribusiness, Māori businesses were
seen as like the ones who needthis.
And then that's sent in Māoriworkers.
But really, Haumaru Tāngataisn't written for Māori.
It was purposely written so thatit matched a known model within
(31:25):
the health and safety system,which is elements, sub elements,
guidance, KPIs.
It's meant for non Māoriorganisations.
And it's meant to help supportthem, or more so for them to
understand the impact.
Because they have notindigenized their behavior, they
(31:46):
can't expect changes with theirworkers.
But once you start indigenizingand engaging, you will see a
change.
And the only way these changescan occur is where you move
outside of your world, your teau and start to think across
other worlds and other valuesand other cultures and broaden
(32:10):
your minds.
Because you're not about, it'snot about bringing others into
your world, you actually need togo into their world and travel
outside of what is normal.
Greg (32:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
Time to put you on the spot.
Okay.
And you've already given us aheap of advice, but really the
last sort of question is, Acouple of points for, joe
average health and safetypractitioner out there.
What are a couple of things thatthey can do to, I don't know,
(32:40):
better understand this, providethe reasons to their management
and their leadership as to whythis should be, a part of their
program.
What can I do as a health andsafety professional?
Jodhi (32:52):
That's a good question.
Why should you implement HaumaruTāngata?
Because we have far too manyMāori who are being hurt.
Māori have 51 percent morelikelihood of being harmed in
the workplace.
On top of that, many of theroles that we do are in high
risk industries.
(33:14):
We die earlier, and yet wecontribute all of our life.
To the scheme, the pension andwhat have you, and yet we do not
access it as long as others do.
We have so much that we can addto help to improve and reduce
workplace harm.
And if we look at it, we needmore workers.
(33:35):
We have a large proportion ofyoung Māori who are going to,
who are going to in the next 50years, they're going to be a
large proportion of ourpopulation.
So if we want to ensure that wehave growth without having to go
externally from New Zealand forthat growth, we need to ensure
that they are upskilled and theyare kept safe.
(33:56):
It's the right thing to do.
I don't know anything more thanto say it's just the right thing
to do.
We, if I was to give you someadvice about how to implement
this though, the first place I'dsay is to understand the own
privilege that you have.
So understand that you alreadythrough your birthright have
(34:17):
come with privilege already.
And so it's to acknowledge thatalso we don't know everything.
But we need to be on the journeytowards it, so introduce some
cultural competency workshops.
First place to start, maybe goout and engage with your own,
the tangata whenua, the peopleof the land around you.
(34:39):
Talk to them and practicecultural humility.
I know that you, as yourbusiness, if we want to talk
about productivity, yourproductivity will improve as
well.
If your workers are engaged andthey're happy, they're more
likely to go above and beyondwhat you require of them.
They'll also actively supportand encourage others to stay
(35:00):
safe in their business, whichwill in long, like money.
A lot of times when we'reapproaching businesses, It's
about money.
If I were to say, HaumaruTāngata will reduce those costs.
A lot of those costs that you'reexperiencing now, it'll also
increase productivity becausepeople are engaged, people are
happy and people will want to dowhat's right because they know
(35:20):
what's right as well.
Greg (35:22):
But yeah.
We're talking about inclusion,right?
People will feel included.
Or more included, and that leadsto, if I was to put it in an I
guess in an English contextorganizational citizenship,
where we all feel like we'recitizens of the organization,
and as you said, if we're inthat situation, we will go above
(35:42):
and beyond what our jobdescription says.
Jodhi (35:46):
We'll be the biggest advocates.
That's the thing is that onceyou have set that standard and
it's an expectation and itbecomes the norm, other people
will gravitate towards thatbecause they're like, man, you
love your job.
What is it about your job?
They can't, they won't be ableto put their finger on it, but
it just, they just seem likeit's an enjoyable job.
It's a great place to work.
(36:07):
You will retain your staff, youhave less who are unhappy in
their roles and you'll naturallyhave people who will come and
they'll stay for longer in, inthe workplace.
Greg (36:19):
Nice.
So where can we go to connectwith you, find out more about
Haumaru Tāngata websites.
Is it LinkedIn or all of theabove?
Jodhi (36:31):
The best place is www.trma so that's.
TRMA.Co.nz, otherwise you canfind us on LinkedIn.
It's probably easier just to goto the website, so our full name
is Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa.
But TRMA for short, and you canfind us there.
Otherwise we're on LinkedIn,we're on Facebook.
Greg (36:50):
And you're on, available on LinkedIn?
Yes, hey, great session, lovedtalking to you.
Really, congratulations ongetting this this framework put
together and out there and I'mcertainly, up for promoting it
as much as we can and I knowyou've got some promotional
activities coming up withvarious webinars and
(37:12):
presentations and conferencesand stuff, so I hope that it all
goes well and yeah, lookingforward to tracking its progress
Thanks very much for the time.
Jodhi (37:20):
All righty, thank you so much.
Greg (37:23):
What a wonderful discussion, Jodhi delved into
the Haumaru Tāngata frameworkand explored how it aims to
address higher workplace harmstatistics among the New Zealand
Māori in high-risk industrieslike forestry and construction.
She discussed how it offers aculturally responsive approach
to health and safety, enhancingworkplace practices without
(37:45):
replacing existing systems.
We discussed the four componentsmade up of principles, ngā rau,
cultural practices, ngā aratikanga, interventions ngā
kōkiri and outcomes ngā hua, andhow the framework integrates
Māori values and practices intoworkplace health and safety
(38:07):
promoting a holistic approachthat considers wellbeing
alongside safety.
Jodhi emphasized the importanceof engaging Māori workers as
cultural advisors within theirworkplaces, rather than seeking
external consultants.
Jodhi's work and in fact, thework of TRMA underscores the
(38:28):
significance of culturallyinformed approaches and
improving health and safetyoutcomes for Maori workers
advocating for inclusivepractices that respect and
integrate Māori values intoeveryday workplace operations.
The words of Rick Fox, areringing in my ears.
Rick spoke recently at thesafeguard conference and as a
(38:51):
previous guest on this podcast.
At the conference, he put up aslide with the words,"My
personal jealousy", and an imageof the Haumaru Tāngata booklet.
He explained how, as a proudfirst nations man from
Australia.
How jealous of the work beingdone by TRMA he was.
A great acknowledgement of whatJodhi and her TRMA Whanau are
(39:15):
doing to improve Māori wellbeingoutcomes in workplaces.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
(39:35):
And there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly.
So keep an eye on your feed.
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
(39:57):
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
This was actually the lastepisode in season one.
We'll be back later in the yearwith season two with a heap of
new guests.
As we dig deeper into culturalintelligence.
Thanks again for tuning into theCulturally Intelligent Safety
(40:19):
Professional.
Ka Kitei
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:42):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:06):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
Today I'm
talking to Jodhi Warwick Ponga,Jodhi is a trustee
of Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa and she's just coming
down from the heights of runninganother successful health and
safety conference held onceagain here in Kirikiriroa,
(01:29):
Hamilton.
Jodhi is head of programs andapprenticeships at Vertical
Horizons and her career hasspanned various aspects of
training and education.
Kia ora, Jodhi great to
be here with you, and I'm really grateful that you've
taken the time to have a chatwith me.
Jodhi (01:45):
Ngā mihi, kia ora Greg.
Greg (01:47):
Before we get into discussions about Te Ropu and
the conference and HaumaruTangata, I'm really keen to hear
more about your work and yourcareer and, how you ended up
here at Vertical Horizons.
Jodhi (02:02):
Awesome.
Alright.
Gosh, where do I start?
I have a very eclectic CV Iguess you could call it.
My trade background is that I'man engraver and a signwriter and
a screen printer so I did thatstraight out of uni.
I didn't last very long in uni,didn't really enjoy it too much
the first time round.
So my dad actually said to mewhen I dropped outta uni, I was
(02:23):
doing law and he said to me,you're not going to stay with us
unless you go and either get adegree or you do a trade.
So I had to go and find a tradeand my trade is my background.
So it's really helped me in myhealth and safety professional
roles as well.
So after that, I did it.
I dabbled a bit in bankingnothing flash.
(02:44):
Spent some time in Australia Iserved a mission for my church
as well during that time.
And then I fell into health andsafety.
So I fell into it through asoftware company called Obsidium
at the time.
So we managed 20, 000 workersthroughout New Zealand and
Australia and I was the client.
I worked my way up.
Within a year to be the clientservices manager.
(03:06):
So I managed my team and Imanaged to the councils in
Australia and in New Zealand andabout 60 clients in New Zealand.
So yeah, about.
20, 000 workers all in all.
And then I moved intoconsultancy after that finished
off some of my studies in healthand safety and have worked with
Vertical Horizons for about 10years off and on.
So both as a contractor, andthen I moved into the Māori
(03:29):
Pacifica team where I workedManaged that and then took a bit
of time off and worked atWaihanga Ara rau which is a
Workforce Development Councilfor a year last year And then
came back to Vertical Horizonsas the head of programs and
apprenticeships.
So It's been a very busy 10years, I must say.
Yep,
Greg (03:49):
So you're a trustee of we call it TRMA.
Yes, Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa.
That's the one, the Māori Healthand Safety Association.
And, just getting that off theground a few years ago must have
been a real outstanding effortand something that I guess
you're all really proud ofachieving.
And I remember attending a huiback, I think it was about 2018
(04:13):
in Whakatane with, I think thatwas before it was launched, and
it was, getting somestakeholders together and just
having a kōrero about about,what it could achieve, and now
in 2024, you're celebrating, oras I said before, you've come
down from the highs of running asecond successful conference.
So tell us a little bit aboutTRMA
Jodhi (04:33):
So TRMA Yeah, like you said, it started around 2017 it
was just a, actually acollection of a few Māori health
and safety practitioners andprofessionals who got together,
and they were essentially juststarting or catching up and
having a cup of tea every monthor so, and then They invited
Vance along to be part of it andVance said, Hey, he was working
(04:54):
for WorkSafe at the time and hesaid, Hey, WorkSafe will fund
the kai if you want to hold ameeting.
So he managed to get some fundstogether and they, we held our
first like formal kind ofmeeting around 2018.
And then we continued fromthere.
So it was just a handful ofhealth and safety practitioners
who wanted to get together tosupport each other who were
(05:15):
Maori.
And then it expanded from there.
So we're a charitableorganisation, we have a small
board of seven trustees.
And like any Māori organization,it's done on the smell of an
oily rag and lots of aroha andlove.
But yeah, we've grown intohaving a membership now.
Our membership, I think, istotaling around 60 to 70
(05:38):
formally paid we tend to havequite a good following.
We don't profess to be anythingamazing or big, but we're
definitely working to grow ourmembership.
But more than anything, we wantto provide a service, and this
service is about providingadvice, training, mentoring, and
then also to add conferences andevents to that, just to support
(05:58):
those who may not be members.
Yeah.
We're very focused on makingsure that the resources that we
provide are funded by otheragencies, and where possible our
services are free.
Greg (06:10):
Cool, cool and proud to say that I'm one of those paid
up members.
And am I right in sayingmembership hasn't yet been open
for a year?
Jodhi (06:22):
Yeah, that's correct yeah.
It might be close to a year, butBarely.
We officially opened it, I thinkit was Late last year.
It took us a while to figure outthe logistics of it.
Yeah, so barely a year.
Greg (06:37):
And as you say you've got a good following.
It was unfortunate I couldn'tattend the first conference, but
I know that sold out.
Jodhi (06:44):
Yeah, it sold out.
We had we thought we'd get 200if we're really, like things
went well.
We ended up having 400 andalmost 450 people in attendance.
This year was down on lastyear's, but it was still really
successful.
We already have people askingabout it next year.
Greg (07:02):
I think you committed, didn't you?
I think.
Somebody committed at theconference and said, yeah, see
you next year.
Yeah, after that we went, welooked at each other and just
went, oh no.
Look, I think I wouldn't bedisappointed about being down.
I think every conference isreally struggling for the
people's dollar and I guess it'sa significant decision to make
(07:26):
as to which conference to go to,but I think, your message is
starting to gain momentum.
Lots of people interested and asyou say, you've started to get
quite a following, certainlyfrom what you see online and
hear around the place.
And let's just talk about, your,is it your sort of big project,
(07:52):
which is this Haumaru Tāngataframework.
Yes.
It's pretty new to the market,it's not been around for long,
really.
Jodhi (08:02):
Yeah, about a year as well.
Officially it was launched atour last conference.
So that was April 19th, 2023.
Yep.
So that was its official launch.
I think we went to print with athousand and we're up to a third
print.
Yeah.
So we've gave away aconsiderable amount, but it's
now available on our TRMAwebsite as well, anyone can
(08:25):
download it.
Greg (08:26):
So let's just let's just talk through the Haumaru Tāngata
framework and just tell me alittle bit about it.
Jodhi (08:32):
Sure.
So the, this came about becauseof three years worth of
research.
The project was actually led byTe whare wananga o awanuiarangi
and it was funded by ACC.
So the intent was to understandwhy New Zealand Māori had higher
statistics in terms of forworkplace harm.
Yep.
And The intent after that wasactually to discover it,
(08:56):
understand it, research it, andthen to produce a document.
So out of it, the research, wefound that this was what was
needed.
So Haumaru Tāngata is aframework which provides a guide
for intervention and investmentfor health and safety for Māori
employed in high riskindustries.
So the intent is high riskindustries.
Places that were researched weremostly around our forestry and
(09:19):
also construction.
And we also know that fishingthey have some high rates of
injury for Māori.
And we know that Māori areoverrepresented in all of the
negative statistics in regardsto harm in the workplace.
So the framework is set about tosupport any organization who
would like to take a more Māoricentered approach towards their
(09:41):
health and safety.
So it doesn't replace yourhealth and safety system.
It's an add on to, and it's away in which you can deliver a
message and also engage betterwith Māori.
So the expectation is that thisis a Māori centred model that
provides meaningful examples, Iguess you could say, or more
(10:03):
Meaningful understanding of howyou can implement a culturally
responsive workplace practice.
Greg (10:09):
OK, so we're talking about this before, and I guess what
we'll do is we'll go through,the key components of it, but I
guess firstly, can you explainwhat, if any, difference or
similarities there are betweenthis and Te Whare Tapa Whā.
Obviously, Te Whare Tapa Whā issomething, in my opinion, that
(10:31):
most health and safetyprofessionals would be familiar
with, we know it's used as partof the Safe Plus training and
it's always referenced by peoplein terms of when they start
talking about wellbeing andhealth, so what's the difference
or the similarities between thetwo?
Jodhi (10:49):
That's a really interesting Question.
Te Whare Tapa Whā is a model ofwellbeing.
So it's been around for about 40years.
So it's based on Sir Mason Druryand his model that he developed.
So Te Whare Tapa Whā is anotherframework, another model.
So Haumaru Tāngata is anadditional model that you can
(11:10):
add to your kete or your bag.
There are multiple wellbeingmodels out there, both for
Māori, Pasifika and otherindigenous cultures and non
indigenous cultures, but this isjust another model that we can
use.
As we were talking before wecame online, I guess you could
say, is that A professional, apractitioner, should know
(11:32):
multiple models.
And they should be able to useit and be agile enough, so that
when one, one framework or modeldoesn't work, you can actually
lean on another model.
In my own practices, I use TeWhare Tapu Whā as a guiding
model, but I also use HaumaruTāngata to help me in how I
(11:53):
engage with Māori.
I also use Te Wheke, which is afurther model.
So Te Wheke or the octopus, whenyou think of an octopus, it has
eight Tentacles and those eighttentacles can have a function
for each, but there are sometimes when certain areas or
functions are weaker and thenall the tentacles or those
(12:16):
available resources should moveinto that area.
So I use Te Wheke in my ownpractices as a manager, where if
I see my staff we have a regularcatch up and there may be a
staff member who's particularlyoverwhelmed with their workload,
we will act like Te Wheke.
The octopus and then move overto look after and support that
(12:36):
person in their workload or intheir well being.
And then when they're at balanceagain, using the Te Whare Tapu
Whā model, they're at balance,then we can move back and spread
our resources again.
So Haumaru Tāngata in this senseis about how we can employ some
of the te ao Māori practicesinto our own health and safety
(12:58):
workplace practices.
Greg (13:00):
Cool.
So let's dig into HaumaruTāngata, it's got four component
parts to it.
Ngā rau, which is itsprinciples.
Ngā āra tikanga and I guess,Many will understand the word
tika from what we see in theconstruction industry with, the
(13:21):
pre qualification programTōtika, tika being the correct
way of doing things, ngā kōkiri,which is activities and
interventions, and ngā hua,outcomes and measures.
So I'd really just, yeah, let'sspend some time just going
through each of those andtalking about what they're all
about.
So you're founding principles.
Jodhi (13:40):
Yes.
So when we think about ourfounding principles, or ngā rau
we actually have them brokeninto seven separate principles.
So our first one is rau tangata,which is the well being of the
individual.
So specifically when we thinkabout rau tangata or well being,
This section actually focuses onhow are we presenting
(14:02):
information to our whānau thatwork within our workplaces is
the information accessible andis it good information, does it
reflect the people who work inthat workplace.
So say for instance, we have inforestry, there's a high number
of Māori.
So when you look at how youpresent yourself, or perhaps
(14:22):
some of the marketing materialsthat you use some of the SOPs
that you may have within thebusiness, your standard
operating procedures, do they,are they reflective of the
individuals who work in thatorganisation?
Does it reflect your workers?
Yep.
So that's that's a little bitabout Rau tangata.
We also have some others.
So there's Rau Whāraki, which isabout holistic integration.
(14:45):
It's Is the material that we'reproviding, has it been
indigenized?
Are there certain aspects of itwhich really build on the, the
way in which Māori want to seethings?
They talk about pedagogy andpedagogy is the way in which you
present information and shareinformation.
So Māori, we love storytelling.
Sure.
(15:06):
We love metaphors.
So are you sharing theinformation in a storytelling or
a metaphor way so that it'sEasily understood.
Yep.
But there's there's a whole lotof different parts within this.
We also have cultural values.
Are they reflected within youryour health and safety systems?
So some of the things that wevalue within Māoridom is
(15:28):
tangihanga.
So is there an allowance and anunderstanding of the importance
of Māori actually?
Taking part in tangihanga orfunerals and knowing that a
tangi or a funeral is not just acouple of hours at a church
service, it actually can be alonger service.
And there's also a year later,there's a period where we go
(15:48):
back and we also come backtogether again for the
unveiling.
Are we reflective of ourcultural values and whānau?
Greg (15:57):
There was a couple of things in the Rau Tangata
section that I'd when I wasreading through this.
And the interesting bit thatI've highlighted here is the
replacement of the word healthwith wellbeing which I think is
intended to create more of aholistic approach to a person
(16:17):
which, follows with I guessTikanga, and also if we think
about cultural intelligence oneof the cultural values, I
suppose within the culturalintelligence framework is
individualistic or collectivismand Maori, not all Maori, I
would assume, because we're notsuggesting that the cultural
(16:38):
intelligence framework is thereto provide or create a
stereotype, but Māori would bemore collectivist culture, doing
things for the group rather thanfrom an individual perspective,
and as I say, I'm notnecessarily suggesting that
applies to every single Māoriperson.
Jodhi (16:56):
Yeah, I think there's actually there's actually more
to it than just being acollectivist.
It's actually beingintergenerational as well.
So if you think about Māori andthe way in which we live our
lives many of us, In the past,and continue to live in this
way, we live veryintergenerationally.
So our homes are filled with, itliterally takes a village to
(17:18):
raise a children for many Māorifamilies.
So we are involved in everydaylife together.
So that's grandparents, that'simmediate family, that's uncles,
aunties, cousins.
But it's not just the living,it's also the past.
Yes.
And it's also the ones who arestill to come as well.
Yes.
So when we think ofintergenerational behaviours we
(17:39):
are thinking of what am I doingto this person that could affect
their future generations aswell?
So the concept of mana, whilstit's not clearly written in
Haumaru Tāngata and underpinningof many of our cultural values
is this concept of mana ormanatangata.
(17:59):
So Manatangata is.
So if you think about mana,let's take mana first.
So mana is a, an authority.
It's a standing within yourcommunity.
It's a it's a, I'm trying to,it's like an essence that you
hold.
But it's not something that youyourself created.
(18:24):
You were born with thisbirthright or this mana by way
of who your familial lines are.
So if you're, if your parentsand your grandparents and your
great grandparents and all ofthose had mana, you were born,
you will be born with a certainmana.
And then how you grow your manais by your acts and your
contributions.
within your community and yourwhānau and those external to
(18:47):
you.
So mana can grow, but also manacan be diminished.
So by your choices that youmake, your mana will diminish.
When you're not tika, your manawill diminish.
When you harm another, your manawill diminish.
But you can also diminishsomeone else's mana.
(19:07):
by doing something thatbelittles them or harms or
embarrasses them.
In our practices, we have tothink about, am I doing
something that is mana enhancingof the individual?
Because if I diminish theirmana, I have not only diminished
(19:27):
their mana, I may havediminished the mana of their
family, their children that areyet to come, and their familial
lines that have already passedon.
So it's a, it's quite a big dealto diminish someone's mana.
So one of the biggest manadiminishing things that can
occur is actually a workplaceincident where there has been
(19:49):
harm.
So if someone is harmed and itmeans that they cannot work,
they cannot then contribute totheir community.
So if they have harmedthemselves and perhaps they were
very big in playing sports orthey're involved in community
activities, they can no longerdo that, their mana is becoming
eroded.
(20:10):
So when we're in a workplace andwe are actively eroding one's
mana through our poor workplacepractices.
That has a massive effect on,intergenerationally, on Māori
and their whānau.
Greg (20:24):
And you can then, see how Haumara Tāngata could be used to
promote, I don't know if that'sthe right word, but remind?
I don't know if Māori workersneed reminding of some of that
tika that, that could be theoutcome.
Not, not in a blaming way butjust saying this is what we're
all about.
(20:45):
And I guess if you were tryingto implement this, would you be
suggesting that you would needsome sort of cultural advisor to
help you along the way?
Jodhi (20:55):
To a certain extent, yes.
At the moment we have we've gotfunding.
So TRMA has funding to support30 organizations.
So we have created anassessment.
It can be a self assessment, butwhat we're actually doing is
we're working with organizationsto answer 20 questions.
They're based on HaumaruTāngata, so they're simple
(21:15):
questions they're yes noquestions, but it's in order for
us to gain to start them to toquestion, I'm going to ask them
about do, what's one of thequestions?
I've got it in front of me.
The first question is, do ourcommunication efforts reflect
Maori values and culture?
And it's yes, no question.
A lot of the times people willgo, oh, I don't think so.
(21:36):
We're trying to actually changethe way in which our website
works.
We were trying to add a moreculturally inclusive website.
And then that goes from being ano to actually a yes.
You're actually trying And thenwe have a, it's not a service
per se, but that whoever will beworking with you of those 30
organizations, one of thetrustees will be able to give
(21:58):
you some, rather than culturaladvice, it's actually gonna be a
cultural mentor.
Because we find that it's easyto get the advice.
But what's hard to do isactually implement the advice
and to actually have that softspot to talk to, that soft
person to actually go, how aboutyou try it this way instead?
Or maybe you could maybe youcould add a little bit more of
(22:20):
some of the values into yourwebsite and kind of embed that
into the way that you are, butit's to have someone to bounce
ideas off.
I think that's a lot of timesbecause I've had a few calls
from people and sometimes wejust need a softly approach,
which is what we want to provideis a softly approach, but also
an honest approach.
And sometimes, the truth can behard.
(22:41):
So when it's someone, it's a loteasier.
Greg (22:44):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So go back to that questionabout, does your website or
your, your policies or yourprocedures reflect culture,
indigenous culture, Māoriculture.
I've just heard from so manypeople around and had
conversations with people aboutthe rights and wrongs of having
company policies that, thatshould or shouldn't end with nā
mihi.
(23:04):
Or people using karakia and yougo is that a tokenistic thing
that you're doing because youthink you should, or is it
genuine?
And I think there's a lot ofpeople in organisations that
really struggle and don't know.
As I say, I had I had somebodycontact me that said they had
been using Ngā mihi just becausethey thought it was something
nice to do, and they've beeninstructed by their organization
(23:27):
to stop doing it.
And also the other way around,where the organization might
have said blanket rule.
This is our signature.
This is our email signature, andit's got Nanamihi in it and
people are going, oh, is thatthe right thing to do?
So I guess having that.
I guess that, that knowledgeablevoice of your cultural mentor
(23:48):
might help decision making in,is what we're doing right.
And the karakia one'sinteresting.
I spoke to a group of Māoriworkers on the side of the road,
in the middle of what nowhere,doing a Safe Plus assessment,
and I asked them about karakia,and the were, why would we do
that at work when we do it athome?
It's already done.
(24:08):
We don't need to do it when wego to work, yet it's been talked
about in workplaces.
Not a lot of workplaces, I don'tthink, but some workplaces are
using it.
And yeah, it's just about tryingto understand what's the right
thing to do and how you might goabout that.
And so would that be somethingif we moved on from the
(24:31):
Principles to the next section,which is your focus areas.
Talk to me about whether that,is that the practical
implementation of theprinciples?
Jodhi (24:41):
Yes.
So there are activities andinterventions.
The focus areas are broken down.
So it's actually set up with therau, so those who may be
familiar with some of the oldschool audit standards you had
like elements.
And then there were sectionswithin the elements, which were
like the sub elements.
So the rau are the elements andthen the ngā ara are the actual
(25:08):
sub elements.
And then the next part, the ngākōkiri, are the kind of the
guidance and the breakdown ofit.
And then ngā hua are thebreakdown.
So it's a breakdown of what youwould expect it to look like.
So Haumaru Tāngata is very muchlaid out to, if you're familiar
with auditing, you'll be like,Oh, I get it.
(25:29):
I see it.
So we have actually got, sowe've developed An actual full
audit using Haumaru Tāngata.
We've just left it to the sidebecause what we realized, we
developed it last year andrealized, hmm, this is probably
better for auditors.
And we moved on and we're like,no, let's move to this, the 20
questions, because that 20questions will then help the
(25:52):
individual organizations tobetter implement Haumaru Tāngata
without saying like 60 questionswhich a normal auditor will go,
oh that's all right.
But though I have to say thisthe breakdown of it is specific
to the rau.
So the focus areas that you'retalking about all link into the
(26:13):
rau itself.
We have developed, if I was tostep back a bit and go back to
talking about the selfassessment has its intent so
that it can break down andyou'll understand which areas
are probably not your strongestareas.
And from that, we are creatingresources to support you in each
of those areas.
So we actually have createdkarakia, we do have a waiata,
(26:35):
Um, for workplaces who don'thave a karakia and they're
looking for something that's nondenominational, open to anyone
so that they can feel confidentand comfortable to offer that.
But just if I was to go backabout tokenism and how we see it
with Yeah.
I would say, if I was to giveany advice, I would say to you
(26:57):
That you don't necessarily needa cultural advisor, but what you
do need to do is actually engagewith your workers.
If you have Māori in yourworkplace, you already have
cultural advisors.
You already have culturalmentors.
So why do you need to go outsideand seek external advice when
(27:20):
you have internal expertsalready?
Greg (27:23):
And I think that, if I was to bang my own drum about
cultural intelligence, that'sexactly what cultural
intelligence is about.
Actually, if you become moreculturally intelligent, then
that is going to enhance yourwork engagement.
Processes and systems andapproaches.
And I like the bit that we justfocus on the karakia component
(27:46):
and you've talked about that alittle bit and it talks about
having a karakia specific toyour workplace or your industry.
And as you say, Maybe you canget all of the cultures together
and you come up with anon-denominational approach.
Jodhi (28:02):
It can be for all iwi, it can be pan tribal or if you are
working in an industry that isspecific to it or here, or a
region or an area or an iwi.
You actually may have tribalmembers already in your
workplace, so go to them.
There is nothing more manaenhancing for an individual to
(28:24):
be asked for their support.
So when you go outside of yourown workplace and seek a
cultural advisor outside ofthat, it's actually mana
diminishing for your workers.
So it's a simple act of Someonewho you've never thought of who
could offer that.
It's a simple act of askingthem.
I I spoke in one article that Iwrote on LinkedIn.
(28:46):
I spoke about how the someone ona lolly, holding a lollipop,
traffic management that they'vehighly skillful role may highly
esteemed in the world, but thatmay be the greatest orator that
you ever have on the marae.
So the mana is.
massive when they're on themarae, but the moment they go
(29:07):
into another world, it's not asvalued.
So this is about valuing thepeople that you already have.
Greg (29:13):
And so there's the nā ara components to that, and it's
probably about six or seven ofthem, and then sitting below
that or following on from it isthe nā kōkiri, so the activities
and the interventions.
So this is, getting a little biteven more specific and
practical.
(29:34):
And I guess that is where itseems to be the place where
you're going to really need thatinput from your people, because
there's not a lot of writinghere telling you the answers,
right?
So you need to get, got a bit ofan overview about knowledge and
training here.
Highlight the need for existingtraining programs to be reviewed
and Māori pedagogies, beincorporated into the design
where possible.
So what does that actually mean?
(29:54):
In reality, maybe that needssome input from your workforce.
Jodhi (29:59):
Exactly.
You do need, you really do needto engage.
So part of the, part of all ofthis is that there's this, we've
got the foundational principlesand we've got focus areas and
activities and interventions.
The activities and theinterventions are the, this is
what we should be doing.
This is the value that ourpeople can actually have to
(30:20):
support us to indigenize ourworkplace.
So absolutely go back to yourown workers.
To find out what are theirneeds, what are their wants, and
how they would like to seethings improved in terms of
cultural responsiveness.
Greg (30:34):
Yep, cool.
And then the last section isoutcomes and measures, and it
looks like they are based on theprevious chapter of Ngā Kōkiri,
and this is your KPIs, right?
This is your outcomes and yourKPIs.
Have we achieved anything?
What does this achievement looklike?
Good, bad, or could be improved,or whatever.
Um, and there you've got a, Iguess a, as you say, a framework
(30:58):
for indigenising your approachto health and safety.
Jodhi (31:01):
Yeah, I I really have to say this, is that a lot of
organisations, when we presentedHaumaru Tāngata, a lot of people
were sending their Māoribusiness, Māori businesses were
seen as like the ones who needthis.
And then that's sent in Māoriworkers.
But really, Haumaru Tāngataisn't written for Māori.
It was purposely written so thatit matched a known model within
(31:25):
the health and safety system,which is elements, sub elements,
guidance, KPIs.
It's meant for non Māoriorganisations.
And it's meant to help supportthem, or more so for them to
understand the impact.
Because they have notindigenized their behavior, they
(31:46):
can't expect changes with theirworkers.
But once you start indigenizingand engaging, you will see a
change.
And the only way these changescan occur is where you move
outside of your world, your teau and start to think across
other worlds and other valuesand other cultures and broaden
(32:10):
your minds.
Because you're not about, it'snot about bringing others into
your world, you actually need togo into their world and travel
outside of what is normal.
Greg (32:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
Time to put you on the spot.
Okay.
And you've already given us aheap of advice, but really the
last sort of question is, Acouple of points for, joe
average health and safetypractitioner out there.
What are a couple of things thatthey can do to, I don't know,
(32:40):
better understand this, providethe reasons to their management
and their leadership as to whythis should be, a part of their
program.
What can I do as a health andsafety professional?
Jodhi (32:52):
That's a good question.
Why should you implement HaumaruTāngata?
Because we have far too manyMāori who are being hurt.
Māori have 51 percent morelikelihood of being harmed in
the workplace.
On top of that, many of theroles that we do are in high
risk industries.
(33:14):
We die earlier, and yet wecontribute all of our life.
To the scheme, the pension andwhat have you, and yet we do not
access it as long as others do.
We have so much that we can addto help to improve and reduce
workplace harm.
And if we look at it, we needmore workers.
(33:35):
We have a large proportion ofyoung Māori who are going to,
who are going to in the next 50years, they're going to be a
large proportion of ourpopulation.
So if we want to ensure that wehave growth without having to go
externally from New Zealand forthat growth, we need to ensure
that they are upskilled and theyare kept safe.
(33:56):
It's the right thing to do.
I don't know anything more thanto say it's just the right thing
to do.
We, if I was to give you someadvice about how to implement
this though, the first place I'dsay is to understand the own
privilege that you have.
So understand that you alreadythrough your birthright have
(34:17):
come with privilege already.
And so it's to acknowledge thatalso we don't know everything.
But we need to be on the journeytowards it, so introduce some
cultural competency workshops.
First place to start, maybe goout and engage with your own,
the tangata whenua, the peopleof the land around you.
(34:39):
Talk to them and practicecultural humility.
I know that you, as yourbusiness, if we want to talk
about productivity, yourproductivity will improve as
well.
If your workers are engaged andthey're happy, they're more
likely to go above and beyondwhat you require of them.
They'll also actively supportand encourage others to stay
(35:00):
safe in their business, whichwill in long, like money.
A lot of times when we'reapproaching businesses, It's
about money.
If I were to say, HaumaruTāngata will reduce those costs.
A lot of those costs that you'reexperiencing now, it'll also
increase productivity becausepeople are engaged, people are
happy and people will want to dowhat's right because they know
(35:20):
what's right as well.
Greg (35:22):
But yeah.
We're talking about inclusion,right?
People will feel included.
Or more included, and that leadsto, if I was to put it in an I
guess in an English contextorganizational citizenship,
where we all feel like we'recitizens of the organization,
and as you said, if we're inthat situation, we will go above
(35:42):
and beyond what our jobdescription says.
Jodhi (35:46):
We'll be the biggest advocates.
That's the thing is that onceyou have set that standard and
it's an expectation and itbecomes the norm, other people
will gravitate towards thatbecause they're like, man, you
love your job.
What is it about your job?
They can't, they won't be ableto put their finger on it, but
it just, they just seem likeit's an enjoyable job.
It's a great place to work.
(36:07):
You will retain your staff, youhave less who are unhappy in
their roles and you'll naturallyhave people who will come and
they'll stay for longer in, inthe workplace.
Greg (36:19):
Nice.
So where can we go to connectwith you, find out more about
Haumaru Tāngata websites.
Is it LinkedIn or all of theabove?
Jodhi (36:31):
The best place is www.trma so that's.
TRMA.Co.nz, otherwise you canfind us on LinkedIn.
It's probably easier just to goto the website, so our full name
is Te Ropu Marutau o Aotearoa.
But TRMA for short, and you canfind us there.
Otherwise we're on LinkedIn,we're on Facebook.
Greg (36:50):
And you're on, available on LinkedIn?
Yes, hey, great session, lovedtalking to you.
Really, congratulations ongetting this this framework put
together and out there and I'mcertainly, up for promoting it
as much as we can and I knowyou've got some promotional
activities coming up withvarious webinars and
(37:12):
presentations and conferencesand stuff, so I hope that it all
goes well and yeah, lookingforward to tracking its progress
Thanks very much for the time.
Jodhi (37:20):
All righty, thank you so much.
Greg (37:23):
What a wonderful discussion, Jodhi delved into
the Haumaru Tāngata frameworkand explored how it aims to
address higher workplace harmstatistics among the New Zealand
Māori in high-risk industrieslike forestry and construction.
She discussed how it offers aculturally responsive approach
to health and safety, enhancingworkplace practices without
(37:45):
replacing existing systems.
We discussed the four componentsmade up of principles, ngā rau,
cultural practices, ngā aratikanga, interventions ngā
kōkiri and outcomes ngā hua, andhow the framework integrates
Māori values and practices intoworkplace health and safety
(38:07):
promoting a holistic approachthat considers wellbeing
alongside safety.
Jodhi emphasized the importanceof engaging Māori workers as
cultural advisors within theirworkplaces, rather than seeking
external consultants.
Jodhi's work and in fact, thework of TRMA underscores the
(38:28):
significance of culturallyinformed approaches and
improving health and safetyoutcomes for Maori workers
advocating for inclusivepractices that respect and
integrate Māori values intoeveryday workplace operations.
The words of Rick Fox, areringing in my ears.
Rick spoke recently at thesafeguard conference and as a
(38:51):
previous guest on this podcast.
At the conference, he put up aslide with the words,"My
personal jealousy", and an imageof the Haumaru Tāngata booklet.
He explained how, as a proudfirst nations man from
Australia.
How jealous of the work beingdone by TRMA he was.
A great acknowledgement of whatJodhi and her TRMA Whanau are
(39:15):
doing to improve Māori wellbeingoutcomes in workplaces.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
(39:35):
And there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly.
So keep an eye on your feed.
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
(39:57):
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
This was actually the lastepisode in season one.
We'll be back later in the yearwith season two with a heap of
new guests.
As we dig deeper into culturalintelligence.
Thanks again for tuning into theCulturally Intelligent Safety
(40:19):
Professional.
Ka Kitei
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