February 17, 2025 • 29 mins
Simonne's insights reveal the importance of inclusive practices in the workplace, particularly in health and safety roles, where clear communication and understanding are critical. By embracing diverse perspectives, safety professionals can create environments that empower individuals to perform at their best, regardless of their gender, background, or neurodiverse status.
Key Takeaways:
- Dyslexia as a Superpower: Simonne described dyslexia as a "superpower" within her family, encouraging a positive outlook on neurodiversity. Despite the struggles, dyslexic individuals can thrive by finding strategies that work for them, such as visualization and using technology for support such as spellcheck and AI tools. This mindset helped foster resilience and creativity, particularly in the engineering field where innovative solutions are often required.
- Gender and Cultural Barriers in Engineering: As one of the few women in engineering when she started her career, Simonne faced challenges, including that frightening encounter where she was threatened while working on a site in the UK. However, she highlights how a combination of persistence and supportive environments, both from her family and colleagues, helped her navigate a historically male-dominated field. Her experiences underscore the importance of creating inclusive spaces for women and people from diverse backgrounds.
- Communication in Safety and Engineering with Diverse Teams: The discussion emphasizes how safety professionals can communicate more effectively by incorporating visual aids like pictures, infographics to cater to diverse needs. Safety materials should be simplified and made universally accessible to overcome barriers such as dyslexia or language differences. This approach helps in ensuring that everyone, regardless of their background or cognitive style, can understand and act on safety protocols.
- Inclusive Work Environments for Neurodiverse Individuals: Simonne advocates for flexible working arrangements and calm, quiet spaces for neurodiverse individuals, especially dyslexic employees, to excel. This allows them to process information and contribute their best work. Recognizing the need for both physical and mental workspace adjustments is essential for creating an environment where neurodiverse individuals can thrive. Moreover, fostering an atmosphere of openness about neurodiversity, as Simonne has done, helps reduce stigma and normalizes the conversation, making it easier for others to come forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world So this week we'rejoined by a real rock star of
the engineering world.
She's ticked over 20 years atTonkin and Taylor with over 30
years of experience in theplanning, design and
construction of civil andenvironmental projects in the
(01:28):
United Kingdom, Africa, theMiddle East, Asia, Australia,
and of course here in NewZealand.
She's recognized as someone withexpertise in waste minimization
options, landfill design,leachate management and
treatment, risk management,alternative energy solutions,
landfill gas management, andlandfill closure and capping
(01:50):
design.
But she's not here to talk abouta load of rubbish.
Welcome Simone Eldredge.
Simonne (01:56):
Hi Greg, nice to be here.
Greg (01:59):
Great to have you here on the show to have a bit of a
chat.
And I have set a bit of a highbar and said that we won't talk
a load of rubbish.
You've worked around the world.
Just give us a flavour of howyour career has evolved from,
getting into engineering untilnow.
Simonne (02:18):
Yeah, and it's interesting because I always
thought as a child that I wasgoing to be a doctor and
actually went to AucklandUniversity to study medicine and
then realized that it wasn't forme and very quickly switched
across to civil engineering.
I got my degree from AucklandUniversity, which I'm very proud
(02:38):
of, and I'm also very proud thatI was able to pick up an
internship with McConnell DowellConstructors, which meant they
paid all my textbooks and fees,and I got to do really awesome
projects while still as anundergraduate.
Then Exploration.
I guess I love to explore theworld.
(02:59):
I almost immediately wentoverseas.
And ended up in London.
So I finished my degree and thenalmost immediately jumped on a
plane for that great Kiwiexport.
Stayed overseas initially in theUK, working on those across the
globe.
And then was asked to pop overto Hong Kong for a few weeks and
(03:20):
left nine years later with ahusband and my first child in
tow.
It was at that point that Ichanged from a water engineer.
So when I moved to Hong Kong, Iwas helping out with some
stormwater design for closedloop landfill management.
And that's when I got into theworld of rubbish was as you
described it, was in Hong Kong.
And then I've been back in NewZealand for yes, 20 years.
(03:42):
Hard to imagine it
Greg (03:45):
And just looking through your LinkedIn profile, you are
you look like you're pretty busyalong with having a corporate
job at a a pretty busyorganization.
You also get yourself involvedin all sorts of other things.
The chair and Facility AdvisoryBoard for the School of
Engineering and all sorts ofother things.
I know you've been involved withWastemans at a board level.
(04:07):
And then it's just the littlething of having a bit of a
family going on as well.
How do you pack all of that into your average day?
Simonne (04:15):
Funnily enough, I blame my mother.
My mother was the mostincredible role model for me.
She was widowed at a young age,with four children under the age
of ten.
I was just nine months old.
And she just picked herself upand and really raised me.
All four of us to do greatthings because really there's no
choice.
(04:35):
You just pick yourself up andget on with things.
So that's where I go to blamethe mother.
Greg (04:43):
Excellent.
So we're not really here to beataround the bush.
The main thrust of this episodeis neurodiversity, which we'll
get to soon and in particulardyslexia.
But of course you can talk abouta whole range of things across
that sort of diversity spectrum.
Obviously being a woman in whatwas probably a pretty male
dominated sector when youjoined, being engineering and I
(05:06):
guess The sectors that involvesitself with there's the
neurodiverse aspect, which as Isaid will come to soon, and then
you put that all together withtraveling overseas and going to
a range of different countries.
You must have a couple of bothgood and bad stories about
diversity over the last 20 or soyears.
(05:27):
Do you want to maybe delve intoa couple of those?
Simonne (05:31):
I'm sure I've only got one or two, so I'll try and,
I'll try and limit myself.
I think when it came to women inengineering it has been a really
tough road in the sense thatwhen I first first chose to go
to engineering school, we reallywere, there were very few role
models.
There were very few women.
I was fortunate in my year, wehit 10 percent women, so 7 out
(05:53):
of 70.
Nowadays it's it's doubled thatbut still not high.
And so it was a little tricky.
I've had a few instances where Iwas working alone on a Sunday
supervising some works in the UKand didn't like the safety of
the the trench.
Told the subbie that they neededto stop work at which point they
threatened to throw me in thehole and I had to run up to the
(06:16):
site office and lock myself inand call the resident engineer.
That was pretty well the lowpoint I think of my my
engineering career.
As a woman feeling vulnerable,but funnily enough, I've since
spoken to a number of young menwho equally had the same thing
happen to them.
So the intimidation wasn't, Ithink, in this particular
situation, just because I was awoman, but it was pretty scary.
(06:39):
The other more of a highlight Iguess is yes, I am proudly
dyslexic as is my husband, as ismy 21 year old son who is now
studying engineering and earthscience and I have one child
who's not, and we've worked outthat we need to be really kind
to him because he feels leftout.
(07:00):
Because he's not the neuro hedoesn't have the the label or he
doesn't have the the dyslexia,which in our family, we try and
think of as a superpower.
So learning to to actually adaptand I found, I find helping my
21 year old is much easier thanhelping my 17 year old, because
he understands English andreading and writing and all
(07:22):
sorts of cool things like that.
Greg (07:23):
Yeah.
Alright let's just Just carry onthe dyslexia sort of trail.
You've known about this for howlong?
For yourself?
Simonne (07:33):
I always knew, when I was younger, I got myself into
trouble.
I'd work really hard on myspelling list and then I'd go to
school the next day and I'd bedefinitely couldn't spell
anything, so I'd get intotrouble.
Words swing around or swimaround when I try and read them.
I use lots of interestingversions of words because I tend
(07:53):
to invert things and I guess Ijust work that out, but my older
sister was probably the one thatmade it a little bit more
apparent for me when she went touniversity and got involved in a
study.
At the university as part ofresearch into dyslexia.
Greg (08:10):
Yeah and so you've known about it for a long time.
It seems to be a bit of a familything, although obviously has
has not impacted, in the directway one of your, one of your
kids.
But obviously it's beensomething that you've talked
about and been really open aboutand when we were talking a few
weeks ago I think it was prettyclear that certainly now, And
(08:33):
maybe this was different a whileago.
You're pretty open about thesituation with anybody that
wants to know, needs to knowabout dyslexia.
So have there been someexperiences?
And I know that there's theorganization in the UK called
IOSH, which is the Health andSafety Industry Association, did
a survey.
About a year ago that, thatasked if you were neurodiverse,
(08:56):
would you tell your employer?
And I think 70 percent of therespondents said no because of
the response that they hadreceived.
You've obviously had thediscussion with your employer
and how did that go?
Simonne (09:11):
It's interesting because part of the reason why I
came out, shall we say, was alot to do with wanting to
normalise the conversation andalso to highlight the fact that
different ways of thinking areessential for us to to be
(09:32):
successful as a society.
We can't all be the same.
We can't all be lined up lookingexactly the same or thinking
exactly the same.
So part of it was about that.
Part of it was also because itwas pretty apparent that right
from the get go that my olderboy was dyslexic himself, and I
never, I didn't want him to growup with any sense of it being
(09:54):
anything other than asuperpower.
So if I was going to do that,then I needed to be honest and
open with others.
I'm also incredibly incrediblyfortunate.
I have worked with the mostincredible people from across
the globe and accepting of mebeing different probably
happened right from the get go,whether it was because I was a
(10:17):
woman in engineering or becauseI was, of Pakeha descent in an
Asian country or whether I am,I'm neurodiverse.
So therefore, in reality Ididn't find it that difficult in
the end.
But the motivation was profileraising and sometimes it was
also just to take some pressureoff myself because I put myself
(10:38):
under pressure to try and notshow too much of, of some of the
slightly more complicated thingsthat go with being dyslexic.
Greg (10:48):
I guess in, in the engineering world, there's quite
a few of those.
It's a very technical space.
And so there's there would bethings that you'd have to work
around to, to try and make surethat, you could, engage with the
information that you're dealingwith or creating.
And so is that one of the, wasthat one of the roadblocks, back
in the early days of just tryingto understand engineering,
(11:13):
technology, those sorts ofthings?
Simonne (11:18):
I think I really had to work very hard to digest
anything.
So I had to hear it multipletimes.
I needed to read it multipletimes.
I needed to interact withsomething multiple times to get
it.
But once I got it, it was morestraightforward.
Once I could make sense makesense of it.
So therefore you do, you haveto, you end up working a lot
(11:40):
harder.
Certainly if you are writingreports, you need to learn the
formula that is a good qualityreport.
I had a client, funnily enough,tell me the other day about a
report not appearing to have abeginning, a middle and an end
that it just stopped and Ithought, oh, that must have been
one of my bad day reports.
So they still happen.
So you got to, you got to usestructure, you got to use
(12:02):
techniques, but then equally Isee the world in pictures.
Therefore, I can visualizesomething.
Drawings make sense to me.
3D makes sense to me.
And as long as I can see it inmy mind, it makes sense.
Greg (12:17):
Just as you were talking there about the seeing things or
hearing or reading things,engaging with content multiple
times I think I mentioned a chapby the name of Mike Styles who's
been working in dyslexia formost of his career and he's
written a book about dyslexiaand, one of the things he
(12:37):
introduced me to was thetechnology that's available to
help people Record content invarious different ways, and that
was one of the things that hetalked about from an education
perspective if you're sitting ina lecture room or a training
course, it's really difficult toboth listen to the content and
(12:59):
write it down and probablyingest it in your mind as well.
Is that something you it leadsyou down the path of having to
just sit there, listen to it,Record it somehow, and then go
listen to it again later.
Simonne (13:13):
There's a couple of things.
One is technology's adisadvantage if you're dyslexic
on one level, because most of uslose about 25 percent of our
reading comprehension when weread something on a screen.
And if you've already struggledwith reading comprehension, and
particularly the way that wordsswim in front of your eyes then
(13:33):
technology is a, is an issue.
Secondly, there's some amazing,there's some research that shows
that, if you type your notes,there's something about it and
it actually just flows out ofyour brain.
So if you're listening andtyping, you're not necessarily
taking it all in.
So I love technology.
I still, my children and I andmy husband, we all use fountain
(13:54):
pens and we all use pen andpaper to record things because
the act of writing something isa good way to, to take it in.
But my son has a an iPad Pro.
He has a pencil.
He does all of his notes.
He then digests it all downthrough the technology, uses uh,
recognition software turns itinto his notes.
(14:17):
I used to have copiousquantities of Lever Arch files
with notes upon notes uponnotes.
The good thing now is that hecan do that by writing, still
writing, but then thedistillation and the dealing
with it can be in the electronicmedia.
The other one is Spellchecker.
Or any form of AI.
(14:39):
AI is my friend.
And your ability to usetechnology to make things easier
to communicate in a writtenformat.
Although you do have to becareful with spellchecker.
I have some stories about that.
One, one of my favourite was wasthat our training instructor in
the UK, his name was RodneyAmster, and I sent a report out
(15:03):
with Rodent Hamster as being hisname.
I wasn't very popular for thatone.
Greg (15:09):
Excellent.
Hey, that's really helpful.
What I'd heard was thattechnology was the be all and
end all, but but maybe not notnecessarily the case.
So thinking about workplacesafety which I guess you've been
pretty close to in your careeras part of, design and
engineering and all of thosesorts of things.
(15:30):
I guess the safety community isreally good at creating screeds
and screeds of stuff and thenputting that little rider at the
bottom of it to say, please signthat you've read and understood
this.
What other ways do you think thesafety professional or
profession can communicatebetter taking into account that
(15:52):
there may well be a dyslexicperson in the room that they may
not know about?
How can we best do it?
Simonne (16:01):
Pictures, basically, everything, making it simple.
Don't a procedure is important,but how can you write that
procedure with half, or aquarter, or even an eighth of
the words and pictures and thatalso works if you're working
with different nationalities aswell.
I was talking with a young man,I do professional reviews for
the Institution of CivilEngineers, and I was talking
(16:22):
with the young man who wastalking about all of the
ethnicities and languages thatwere spoken on the construction
site that he was supervising inHong Kong and he felt that even
though english was the languageof the site when it came to
health and safety He reallywanted to make sure that
everybody understood what it wasthat they were being asked of
them So pictures are brilliantbecause a picture, a well done
(16:49):
picture will enable anybodyirrespective of whether they
have reading difficulties,irrespective of if they have
different languages will be ableto to understand what, what's
being asked of them.
Greg (17:04):
Now that's super helpful.
Actually a friend and colleagueof mine gave a presentation a
few weeks ago.
Shout out to Tom Jones.
He's a health and safetyprofessional.
He's dyslexic and he's workingto educate businesses on how to
create more effective ways ofcommunicating across that range
or that multiple audiences thatthat we have.
(17:26):
And actually he posed arhetorical question for everyone
to consider.
And now the answer might be,Blindingly obvious to the
majority of people but whetherbusiness owners actually think
about this and the question iswhat percentage of the workforce
is it acceptable to notcommunicate effectively with?
Simonne (17:49):
Tricky thing here though is that our industry
attracts a very high percentageof dyslexic people, so therefore
You are not just talking about aminority in our industry, you
are more often than not, I wouldargue, talking about a
significant close to whetherit's parity or more.
(18:14):
There's statistics that suggest,60 70 percent have some form of
dyslexia.
Whether that is is inflated ornot I haven't done the research,
but I think that you're in realdanger of making assumptions
around who is the minority inour industry.
Greg (18:34):
Yeah, I guess what we're saying is.
We need to think about ourcommunication across the
spectrum, and I don't meannecessarily the neurodiverse
spectrum, the spectrum ofneurodiverse, the, as you
mentioned before, the spectrumof maybe English isn't a first
language, and there is going tobe a percentage of people Maybe
(18:55):
not so much in your industry,but in various industries where
school might not have been aparticular success.
Absolutely.
Or education might not have beena particular success.
And what's the best way?
I think the 50 page SOP on, onhow to, I don't know, dig a hole
or a trench or whatever is iscertainly not the right way.
But there are some people thatwould value that and need that,
(19:18):
they, people that value detailedinformation, um, lots of data,
lots of information, and there'sothers, I think there's a,
there's an acronym now, TL:DR,Too Long, Didn't Read.
Simonne (19:32):
Yeah, I think I just go with the glazed over is a point.
Yeah, that's right.
Other point, so I'm just goingto say the other one to add in
there though, is that if youwant something to resonate, then
give it to the demographic.
My son's interning for afantastic organization that may
be part of our suite.
And he was asked.
To to do a visualization of thecritical risks for that
(19:55):
organization.
Now he's a, he's a, anundergraduate in engineering.
He doesn't have all the graphicdesign skills, but he was able
to create something that was areally sensible visualization
and it's now called their theirhealth and safety shield.
And then a graphics personturned it into something that
looked really amazing, butbecause it, he was asked to take
(20:16):
these critical risks andrepresent them that was a really
good way to get an outcome thatI think was pretty successful.
Greg (20:23):
It's a great idea and a great outcome and I think
organizations really struggle tocome up with innovative ways to
get worker engagement that'smeaningful.
And, we've heard, totallyunrelated, but we've heard
recently out of the courts withthe with the Maritime New
Zealand Prosecution of the exPort of Auckland CEO about
(20:44):
understanding and that directorsand leaders need to understand
the difference between work asimagined and work as done.
And if you've got the workforcecreating the instruction or the
guidance or the process orwhatever it might be rather than
some health and safety personsitting in a back office
somewhere then your proceduremay well be a little bit closer
(21:07):
to work as done than if youhadn't involved the workforce.
So yeah, that's a great idea tohave done that.
And it sounds he's really beenable to use the superpower.
to benefit the company he worksfor.
As we try and wrap up, one ofthe things I usually get people
to talk about is a couple oftips, two or three tips, and
(21:27):
maybe you've already given one,about how health and safety
professionals can do better whenCommunicating with people in
that neurodiverse spectrum.
Dyslexia, there's obviously manyothers.
You've talked about images andpictures and the like.
Anything else?
Simonne (21:49):
Something around reading the room.
A dyslexic person oftendisengages from group
instructions because they'rereally hard to follow.
So you get fixated or you'rebusily trying to process.
The first part of aninstruction, and you can't, you
(22:09):
haven't quite caught up to therest of them.
Now that's not because you'reslow, it's because you're trying
to create an image that cementsit in your brain.
So that group instruction orthat I think sometimes about
toolbox talks, how those canactually sometimes be
debilitating if it's a groupinstruction rather than a
(22:32):
personal one on one.
That, that's one that plays onand the other one is about the
environment.
So health, safety and welfare.
I'm a huge advocate for flexibleworking, I'm a huge advocate for
creating calm, quiet spaces forpeople to be able to to gather
their thoughts and and bringthemselves their best person to
(22:54):
work.
And part of the reason I took myjob at my current employer is
because I see that it was a nobrainer.
I had to have an office.
And that was before I even cameclean about my dyslexia.
Nowadays, of course, you don'tget offices, so now you create
other ways to create a calmerspace where people can do their
best work.
Greg (23:14):
That's really helpful.
So yeah and it's some ways, It'smaybe the health and safety
person, if they are the persondelivering the toolbox talk or
whatever it might be, and ofcourse if they're aware that
there might be a dyslexic personor two in the audience checking
in with them maybe after theevent.
I guess it's problematic if theydon't know but then I guess if
(23:36):
you've thought about it goingin, And maybe some of the
content is not just a hundredwords on a PowerPoint slide
there's some images there thatsort of cater to to, to many
different people with differentneeds around communication.
And as you said before, the theEnglish as a second language it
(23:56):
can be helpful with imagery isas well.
In that calm space.
Yeah, great idea.
And obviously for those that canthe sort of the flexible working
arrangements have obviously beenbeneficial.
Obviously, thinking that thereare people that can do that.
Do jobs that mean that flexibleworking, as we normally talk
(24:18):
about it, is probably not anoption for them because they
have to do the do and and areout doing physical activities.
Simonne (24:24):
Absolutely, but how do you create the environment for
them to do the paperwork thatthey need to do?
So flexibility, depending onwhat the work is that goes with
the activity you're asking themto do.
Greg (24:35):
Outstanding.
Hey, Simonne, thanks so much foryour time today.
Really appreciate you puttingthe time aside.
I know we're just on the run upto Christmas and no doubt you're
heading off away from work for awhile at the end of this week
and so that will be no doubt avery beneficial break.
Hope you've had a good year andYeah, just looking forward to
(24:55):
2025 and and achieving a wholelot more and for my part,
looking just to help promote thesuperpower across the
neurodiversity spectrum that,that, we know a lot of a lot of
people do do have to try andmanage and certainly in a world
that I think Hasn't particularlygot quite on board with
(25:16):
understanding it just yet.
Simonne (25:18):
Thank you.
Greg (25:19):
I think Simone's insights reveal the importance of
inclusive practices in theworkplace particularly in health
and safety roles with clearcommunication and understanding
are critical.
By embracing diverseperspectives, safety
professionals can createenvironments that empower
individuals to perform at theirbest, regardless of the gender,
(25:41):
background or neurodiversestatus.
Some of my takeaways from thisdiscussion.
Dyslexia as a superpower.
It's not the first time we'veheard this, but, Simonne did
describe dyslexia as asuperpower within her family.
Encouraging that positiveoutlook on neurodiversity.
Despite some of the struggles,dyslexic individuals can thrive
(26:05):
by finding strategies that workfor them, such as visualization
and using technology for supportsuch as spellcheck and other AI
tools.
This mindset, help fosterresilience and creativity,
particularly in the engineeringfield where innovative solutions
are often required.
Gender and cultural barriers andengineering.
(26:29):
As one of the few women inengineering, when Simonne first
started her career, she facedchallenges, including that
frightening encounter when shewas threatened while working on
a site in the UK.
However, She highlights howcombination of persistence and
supportive environments, bothfrom her family and colleagues
(26:49):
help to navigate a historicallymale dominated field.
Her experiences underscore theimportance of creating inclusive
spaces for women and people fromdiverse backgrounds.
Communication in safety andengineering with diverse teams.
The discussion emphasizes howsafety professionals can
(27:11):
communicate more effectively byincorporating visual aids like
pictures and infographics tocater for diverse needs.
Safety materials need to besimplified and made universally
accessible to overcome barrierssuch as dyslexia or language
differences.
This approach helps in ensuringthat everyone, regardless of
(27:34):
their background or cognitivestyle, can understand and act on
safety protocols.
Creating inclusive workenvironments for neurodiverse
individuals.
Simonne advocates for flexibleworking arrangements and calm,
quiet spaces for neuro diverseindividuals, especially dyslexic
(27:55):
employees to enable them toExcel.
This allows them to processinformation and contribute their
best work.
Recognizing the need for bothphysical and mental workspace
adjustments is essential forcreating an environment when
neurodiverse individuals canthrive.
Fostering an atmosphere ofopenness about neuro-diversity
(28:18):
as Simonne has done helps reducestigma and normalizes the
conversation making it easierfor others to come forward.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
(28:39):
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
(29:00):
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world So this week we'rejoined by a real rock star of
the engineering world.
She's ticked over 20 years atTonkin and Taylor with over 30
years of experience in theplanning, design and
construction of civil andenvironmental projects in the
(01:28):
United Kingdom, Africa, theMiddle East, Asia, Australia,
and of course here in NewZealand.
She's recognized as someone withexpertise in waste minimization
options, landfill design,leachate management and
treatment, risk management,alternative energy solutions,
landfill gas management, andlandfill closure and capping
(01:50):
design.
But she's not here to talk abouta load of rubbish.
Welcome Simone Eldredge.
Simonne (01:56):
Hi Greg, nice to be here.
Greg (01:59):
Great to have you here on the show to have a bit of a
chat.
And I have set a bit of a highbar and said that we won't talk
a load of rubbish.
You've worked around the world.
Just give us a flavour of howyour career has evolved from,
getting into engineering untilnow.
Simonne (02:18):
Yeah, and it's interesting because I always
thought as a child that I wasgoing to be a doctor and
actually went to AucklandUniversity to study medicine and
then realized that it wasn't forme and very quickly switched
across to civil engineering.
I got my degree from AucklandUniversity, which I'm very proud
(02:38):
of, and I'm also very proud thatI was able to pick up an
internship with McConnell DowellConstructors, which meant they
paid all my textbooks and fees,and I got to do really awesome
projects while still as anundergraduate.
Then Exploration.
I guess I love to explore theworld.
(02:59):
I almost immediately wentoverseas.
And ended up in London.
So I finished my degree and thenalmost immediately jumped on a
plane for that great Kiwiexport.
Stayed overseas initially in theUK, working on those across the
globe.
And then was asked to pop overto Hong Kong for a few weeks and
(03:20):
left nine years later with ahusband and my first child in
tow.
It was at that point that Ichanged from a water engineer.
So when I moved to Hong Kong, Iwas helping out with some
stormwater design for closedloop landfill management.
And that's when I got into theworld of rubbish was as you
described it, was in Hong Kong.
And then I've been back in NewZealand for yes, 20 years.
(03:42):
Hard to imagine it
Greg (03:45):
And just looking through your LinkedIn profile, you are
you look like you're pretty busyalong with having a corporate
job at a a pretty busyorganization.
You also get yourself involvedin all sorts of other things.
The chair and Facility AdvisoryBoard for the School of
Engineering and all sorts ofother things.
I know you've been involved withWastemans at a board level.
(04:07):
And then it's just the littlething of having a bit of a
family going on as well.
How do you pack all of that into your average day?
Simonne (04:15):
Funnily enough, I blame my mother.
My mother was the mostincredible role model for me.
She was widowed at a young age,with four children under the age
of ten.
I was just nine months old.
And she just picked herself upand and really raised me.
All four of us to do greatthings because really there's no
choice.
(04:35):
You just pick yourself up andget on with things.
So that's where I go to blamethe mother.
Greg (04:43):
Excellent.
So we're not really here to beataround the bush.
The main thrust of this episodeis neurodiversity, which we'll
get to soon and in particulardyslexia.
But of course you can talk abouta whole range of things across
that sort of diversity spectrum.
Obviously being a woman in whatwas probably a pretty male
dominated sector when youjoined, being engineering and I
(05:06):
guess The sectors that involvesitself with there's the
neurodiverse aspect, which as Isaid will come to soon, and then
you put that all together withtraveling overseas and going to
a range of different countries.
You must have a couple of bothgood and bad stories about
diversity over the last 20 or soyears.
(05:27):
Do you want to maybe delve intoa couple of those?
Simonne (05:31):
I'm sure I've only got one or two, so I'll try and,
I'll try and limit myself.
I think when it came to women inengineering it has been a really
tough road in the sense thatwhen I first first chose to go
to engineering school, we reallywere, there were very few role
models.
There were very few women.
I was fortunate in my year, wehit 10 percent women, so 7 out
(05:53):
of 70.
Nowadays it's it's doubled thatbut still not high.
And so it was a little tricky.
I've had a few instances where Iwas working alone on a Sunday
supervising some works in the UKand didn't like the safety of
the the trench.
Told the subbie that they neededto stop work at which point they
threatened to throw me in thehole and I had to run up to the
(06:16):
site office and lock myself inand call the resident engineer.
That was pretty well the lowpoint I think of my my
engineering career.
As a woman feeling vulnerable,but funnily enough, I've since
spoken to a number of young menwho equally had the same thing
happen to them.
So the intimidation wasn't, Ithink, in this particular
situation, just because I was awoman, but it was pretty scary.
(06:39):
The other more of a highlight Iguess is yes, I am proudly
dyslexic as is my husband, as ismy 21 year old son who is now
studying engineering and earthscience and I have one child
who's not, and we've worked outthat we need to be really kind
to him because he feels leftout.
(07:00):
Because he's not the neuro hedoesn't have the the label or he
doesn't have the the dyslexia,which in our family, we try and
think of as a superpower.
So learning to to actually adaptand I found, I find helping my
21 year old is much easier thanhelping my 17 year old, because
he understands English andreading and writing and all
(07:22):
sorts of cool things like that.
Greg (07:23):
Yeah.
Alright let's just Just carry onthe dyslexia sort of trail.
You've known about this for howlong?
For yourself?
Simonne (07:33):
I always knew, when I was younger, I got myself into
trouble.
I'd work really hard on myspelling list and then I'd go to
school the next day and I'd bedefinitely couldn't spell
anything, so I'd get intotrouble.
Words swing around or swimaround when I try and read them.
I use lots of interestingversions of words because I tend
(07:53):
to invert things and I guess Ijust work that out, but my older
sister was probably the one thatmade it a little bit more
apparent for me when she went touniversity and got involved in a
study.
At the university as part ofresearch into dyslexia.
Greg (08:10):
Yeah and so you've known about it for a long time.
It seems to be a bit of a familything, although obviously has
has not impacted, in the directway one of your, one of your
kids.
But obviously it's beensomething that you've talked
about and been really open aboutand when we were talking a few
weeks ago I think it was prettyclear that certainly now, And
(08:33):
maybe this was different a whileago.
You're pretty open about thesituation with anybody that
wants to know, needs to knowabout dyslexia.
So have there been someexperiences?
And I know that there's theorganization in the UK called
IOSH, which is the Health andSafety Industry Association, did
a survey.
About a year ago that, thatasked if you were neurodiverse,
(08:56):
would you tell your employer?
And I think 70 percent of therespondents said no because of
the response that they hadreceived.
You've obviously had thediscussion with your employer
and how did that go?
Simonne (09:11):
It's interesting because part of the reason why I
came out, shall we say, was alot to do with wanting to
normalise the conversation andalso to highlight the fact that
different ways of thinking areessential for us to to be
(09:32):
successful as a society.
We can't all be the same.
We can't all be lined up lookingexactly the same or thinking
exactly the same.
So part of it was about that.
Part of it was also because itwas pretty apparent that right
from the get go that my olderboy was dyslexic himself, and I
never, I didn't want him to growup with any sense of it being
(09:54):
anything other than asuperpower.
So if I was going to do that,then I needed to be honest and
open with others.
I'm also incredibly incrediblyfortunate.
I have worked with the mostincredible people from across
the globe and accepting of mebeing different probably
happened right from the get go,whether it was because I was a
(10:17):
woman in engineering or becauseI was, of Pakeha descent in an
Asian country or whether I am,I'm neurodiverse.
So therefore, in reality Ididn't find it that difficult in
the end.
But the motivation was profileraising and sometimes it was
also just to take some pressureoff myself because I put myself
(10:38):
under pressure to try and notshow too much of, of some of the
slightly more complicated thingsthat go with being dyslexic.
Greg (10:48):
I guess in, in the engineering world, there's quite
a few of those.
It's a very technical space.
And so there's there would bethings that you'd have to work
around to, to try and make surethat, you could, engage with the
information that you're dealingwith or creating.
And so is that one of the, wasthat one of the roadblocks, back
in the early days of just tryingto understand engineering,
(11:13):
technology, those sorts ofthings?
Simonne (11:18):
I think I really had to work very hard to digest
anything.
So I had to hear it multipletimes.
I needed to read it multipletimes.
I needed to interact withsomething multiple times to get
it.
But once I got it, it was morestraightforward.
Once I could make sense makesense of it.
So therefore you do, you haveto, you end up working a lot
(11:40):
harder.
Certainly if you are writingreports, you need to learn the
formula that is a good qualityreport.
I had a client, funnily enough,tell me the other day about a
report not appearing to have abeginning, a middle and an end
that it just stopped and Ithought, oh, that must have been
one of my bad day reports.
So they still happen.
So you got to, you got to usestructure, you got to use
(12:02):
techniques, but then equally Isee the world in pictures.
Therefore, I can visualizesomething.
Drawings make sense to me.
3D makes sense to me.
And as long as I can see it inmy mind, it makes sense.
Greg (12:17):
Just as you were talking there about the seeing things or
hearing or reading things,engaging with content multiple
times I think I mentioned a chapby the name of Mike Styles who's
been working in dyslexia formost of his career and he's
written a book about dyslexiaand, one of the things he
(12:37):
introduced me to was thetechnology that's available to
help people Record content invarious different ways, and that
was one of the things that hetalked about from an education
perspective if you're sitting ina lecture room or a training
course, it's really difficult toboth listen to the content and
(12:59):
write it down and probablyingest it in your mind as well.
Is that something you it leadsyou down the path of having to
just sit there, listen to it,Record it somehow, and then go
listen to it again later.
Simonne (13:13):
There's a couple of things.
One is technology's adisadvantage if you're dyslexic
on one level, because most of uslose about 25 percent of our
reading comprehension when weread something on a screen.
And if you've already struggledwith reading comprehension, and
particularly the way that wordsswim in front of your eyes then
(13:33):
technology is a, is an issue.
Secondly, there's some amazing,there's some research that shows
that, if you type your notes,there's something about it and
it actually just flows out ofyour brain.
So if you're listening andtyping, you're not necessarily
taking it all in.
So I love technology.
I still, my children and I andmy husband, we all use fountain
(13:54):
pens and we all use pen andpaper to record things because
the act of writing something isa good way to, to take it in.
But my son has a an iPad Pro.
He has a pencil.
He does all of his notes.
He then digests it all downthrough the technology, uses uh,
recognition software turns itinto his notes.
(14:17):
I used to have copiousquantities of Lever Arch files
with notes upon notes uponnotes.
The good thing now is that hecan do that by writing, still
writing, but then thedistillation and the dealing
with it can be in the electronicmedia.
The other one is Spellchecker.
Or any form of AI.
(14:39):
AI is my friend.
And your ability to usetechnology to make things easier
to communicate in a writtenformat.
Although you do have to becareful with spellchecker.
I have some stories about that.
One, one of my favourite was wasthat our training instructor in
the UK, his name was RodneyAmster, and I sent a report out
(15:03):
with Rodent Hamster as being hisname.
I wasn't very popular for thatone.
Greg (15:09):
Excellent.
Hey, that's really helpful.
What I'd heard was thattechnology was the be all and
end all, but but maybe not notnecessarily the case.
So thinking about workplacesafety which I guess you've been
pretty close to in your careeras part of, design and
engineering and all of thosesorts of things.
(15:30):
I guess the safety community isreally good at creating screeds
and screeds of stuff and thenputting that little rider at the
bottom of it to say, please signthat you've read and understood
this.
What other ways do you think thesafety professional or
profession can communicatebetter taking into account that
(15:52):
there may well be a dyslexicperson in the room that they may
not know about?
How can we best do it?
Simonne (16:01):
Pictures, basically, everything, making it simple.
Don't a procedure is important,but how can you write that
procedure with half, or aquarter, or even an eighth of
the words and pictures and thatalso works if you're working
with different nationalities aswell.
I was talking with a young man,I do professional reviews for
the Institution of CivilEngineers, and I was talking
(16:22):
with the young man who wastalking about all of the
ethnicities and languages thatwere spoken on the construction
site that he was supervising inHong Kong and he felt that even
though english was the languageof the site when it came to
health and safety He reallywanted to make sure that
everybody understood what it wasthat they were being asked of
them So pictures are brilliantbecause a picture, a well done
(16:49):
picture will enable anybodyirrespective of whether they
have reading difficulties,irrespective of if they have
different languages will be ableto to understand what, what's
being asked of them.
Greg (17:04):
Now that's super helpful.
Actually a friend and colleagueof mine gave a presentation a
few weeks ago.
Shout out to Tom Jones.
He's a health and safetyprofessional.
He's dyslexic and he's workingto educate businesses on how to
create more effective ways ofcommunicating across that range
or that multiple audiences thatthat we have.
(17:26):
And actually he posed arhetorical question for everyone
to consider.
And now the answer might be,Blindingly obvious to the
majority of people but whetherbusiness owners actually think
about this and the question iswhat percentage of the workforce
is it acceptable to notcommunicate effectively with?
Simonne (17:49):
Tricky thing here though is that our industry
attracts a very high percentageof dyslexic people, so therefore
You are not just talking about aminority in our industry, you
are more often than not, I wouldargue, talking about a
significant close to whetherit's parity or more.
(18:14):
There's statistics that suggest,60 70 percent have some form of
dyslexia.
Whether that is is inflated ornot I haven't done the research,
but I think that you're in realdanger of making assumptions
around who is the minority inour industry.
Greg (18:34):
Yeah, I guess what we're saying is.
We need to think about ourcommunication across the
spectrum, and I don't meannecessarily the neurodiverse
spectrum, the spectrum ofneurodiverse, the, as you
mentioned before, the spectrumof maybe English isn't a first
language, and there is going tobe a percentage of people Maybe
(18:55):
not so much in your industry,but in various industries where
school might not have been aparticular success.
Absolutely.
Or education might not have beena particular success.
And what's the best way?
I think the 50 page SOP on, onhow to, I don't know, dig a hole
or a trench or whatever is iscertainly not the right way.
But there are some people thatwould value that and need that,
(19:18):
they, people that value detailedinformation, um, lots of data,
lots of information, and there'sothers, I think there's a,
there's an acronym now, TL:DR,Too Long, Didn't Read.
Simonne (19:32):
Yeah, I think I just go with the glazed over is a point.
Yeah, that's right.
Other point, so I'm just goingto say the other one to add in
there though, is that if youwant something to resonate, then
give it to the demographic.
My son's interning for afantastic organization that may
be part of our suite.
And he was asked.
To to do a visualization of thecritical risks for that
(19:55):
organization.
Now he's a, he's a, anundergraduate in engineering.
He doesn't have all the graphicdesign skills, but he was able
to create something that was areally sensible visualization
and it's now called their theirhealth and safety shield.
And then a graphics personturned it into something that
looked really amazing, butbecause it, he was asked to take
(20:16):
these critical risks andrepresent them that was a really
good way to get an outcome thatI think was pretty successful.
Greg (20:23):
It's a great idea and a great outcome and I think
organizations really struggle tocome up with innovative ways to
get worker engagement that'smeaningful.
And, we've heard, totallyunrelated, but we've heard
recently out of the courts withthe with the Maritime New
Zealand Prosecution of the exPort of Auckland CEO about
(20:44):
understanding and that directorsand leaders need to understand
the difference between work asimagined and work as done.
And if you've got the workforcecreating the instruction or the
guidance or the process orwhatever it might be rather than
some health and safety personsitting in a back office
somewhere then your proceduremay well be a little bit closer
(21:07):
to work as done than if youhadn't involved the workforce.
So yeah, that's a great idea tohave done that.
And it sounds he's really beenable to use the superpower.
to benefit the company he worksfor.
As we try and wrap up, one ofthe things I usually get people
to talk about is a couple oftips, two or three tips, and
(21:27):
maybe you've already given one,about how health and safety
professionals can do better whenCommunicating with people in
that neurodiverse spectrum.
Dyslexia, there's obviously manyothers.
You've talked about images andpictures and the like.
Anything else?
Simonne (21:49):
Something around reading the room.
A dyslexic person oftendisengages from group
instructions because they'rereally hard to follow.
So you get fixated or you'rebusily trying to process.
The first part of aninstruction, and you can't, you
(22:09):
haven't quite caught up to therest of them.
Now that's not because you'reslow, it's because you're trying
to create an image that cementsit in your brain.
So that group instruction orthat I think sometimes about
toolbox talks, how those canactually sometimes be
debilitating if it's a groupinstruction rather than a
(22:32):
personal one on one.
That, that's one that plays onand the other one is about the
environment.
So health, safety and welfare.
I'm a huge advocate for flexibleworking, I'm a huge advocate for
creating calm, quiet spaces forpeople to be able to to gather
their thoughts and and bringthemselves their best person to
(22:54):
work.
And part of the reason I took myjob at my current employer is
because I see that it was a nobrainer.
I had to have an office.
And that was before I even cameclean about my dyslexia.
Nowadays, of course, you don'tget offices, so now you create
other ways to create a calmerspace where people can do their
best work.
Greg (23:14):
That's really helpful.
So yeah and it's some ways, It'smaybe the health and safety
person, if they are the persondelivering the toolbox talk or
whatever it might be, and ofcourse if they're aware that
there might be a dyslexic personor two in the audience checking
in with them maybe after theevent.
I guess it's problematic if theydon't know but then I guess if
(23:36):
you've thought about it goingin, And maybe some of the
content is not just a hundredwords on a PowerPoint slide
there's some images there thatsort of cater to to, to many
different people with differentneeds around communication.
And as you said before, the theEnglish as a second language it
(23:56):
can be helpful with imagery isas well.
In that calm space.
Yeah, great idea.
And obviously for those that canthe sort of the flexible working
arrangements have obviously beenbeneficial.
Obviously, thinking that thereare people that can do that.
Do jobs that mean that flexibleworking, as we normally talk
(24:18):
about it, is probably not anoption for them because they
have to do the do and and areout doing physical activities.
Simonne (24:24):
Absolutely, but how do you create the environment for
them to do the paperwork thatthey need to do?
So flexibility, depending onwhat the work is that goes with
the activity you're asking themto do.
Greg (24:35):
Outstanding.
Hey, Simonne, thanks so much foryour time today.
Really appreciate you puttingthe time aside.
I know we're just on the run upto Christmas and no doubt you're
heading off away from work for awhile at the end of this week
and so that will be no doubt avery beneficial break.
Hope you've had a good year andYeah, just looking forward to
(24:55):
2025 and and achieving a wholelot more and for my part,
looking just to help promote thesuperpower across the
neurodiversity spectrum that,that, we know a lot of a lot of
people do do have to try andmanage and certainly in a world
that I think Hasn't particularlygot quite on board with
(25:16):
understanding it just yet.
Simonne (25:18):
Thank you.
Greg (25:19):
I think Simone's insights reveal the importance of
inclusive practices in theworkplace particularly in health
and safety roles with clearcommunication and understanding
are critical.
By embracing diverseperspectives, safety
professionals can createenvironments that empower
individuals to perform at theirbest, regardless of the gender,
(25:41):
background or neurodiversestatus.
Some of my takeaways from thisdiscussion.
Dyslexia as a superpower.
It's not the first time we'veheard this, but, Simonne did
describe dyslexia as asuperpower within her family.
Encouraging that positiveoutlook on neurodiversity.
Despite some of the struggles,dyslexic individuals can thrive
(26:05):
by finding strategies that workfor them, such as visualization
and using technology for supportsuch as spellcheck and other AI
tools.
This mindset, help fosterresilience and creativity,
particularly in the engineeringfield where innovative solutions
are often required.
Gender and cultural barriers andengineering.
(26:29):
As one of the few women inengineering, when Simonne first
started her career, she facedchallenges, including that
frightening encounter when shewas threatened while working on
a site in the UK.
However, She highlights howcombination of persistence and
supportive environments, bothfrom her family and colleagues
(26:49):
help to navigate a historicallymale dominated field.
Her experiences underscore theimportance of creating inclusive
spaces for women and people fromdiverse backgrounds.
Communication in safety andengineering with diverse teams.
The discussion emphasizes howsafety professionals can
(27:11):
communicate more effectively byincorporating visual aids like
pictures and infographics tocater for diverse needs.
Safety materials need to besimplified and made universally
accessible to overcome barrierssuch as dyslexia or language
differences.
This approach helps in ensuringthat everyone, regardless of
(27:34):
their background or cognitivestyle, can understand and act on
safety protocols.
Creating inclusive workenvironments for neurodiverse
individuals.
Simonne advocates for flexibleworking arrangements and calm,
quiet spaces for neuro diverseindividuals, especially dyslexic
(27:55):
employees to enable them toExcel.
This allows them to processinformation and contribute their
best work.
Recognizing the need for bothphysical and mental workspace
adjustments is essential forcreating an environment when
neurodiverse individuals canthrive.
Fostering an atmosphere ofopenness about neuro-diversity
(28:18):
as Simonne has done helps reducestigma and normalizes the
conversation making it easierfor others to come forward.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
(28:39):
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
(29:00):
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa.
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