March 17, 2025 • 42 mins
Cultural Intelligence & Workplace Safety: Why It Matters More Than Ever
In health and safety, we often focus on compliance, technical skills, and risk management. But what about cultural intelligence (CQ)—the ability to adapt and connect across cultural differences? In this episode, I had an insightful conversation with Hema Puthran, a seasoned health and safety professional, about how cultural intelligence plays a critical role in creating safer workplaces.
Hema shared powerful stories, including:
✅ How her social work background shaped her approach to health & safety
✅ A fascinating story about persuading a Sikh truck driver to rethink his PPE choices—without disrespecting his faith
✅ The generational and cultural barriers to implementing safety changes in small businesses
✅ Why patience and understanding are just as important as rules and policies
Key takeaway: Cultural intelligence isn’t about forcing compliance—it’s about understanding perspectives, building trust, and helping people make informed choices.
If you're working in a diverse environment, CQ isn't optional—it's essential.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:05):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:25):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:46):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:10):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
In this episode, we're talkingwith experienced health and
safety professional based inAuckland, Hema Puthran, who is a
senior health and safety advisorfor Precinct Properties and has
held roles in other largecorporates in New Zealand,
including OCS New Zealand,Regional Facilities Auckland,
(01:33):
and Recall.
Also, I believe you might havehad some time with Fulton Hogan,
although maybe not in a healthand safety role.
Hema's career in health andsafety spans 17 years and along
with a health and safetyqualification, she also has a
master's degree in social work,which was obtained from the Tata
Institute of Social Sciences inIndia.
(01:54):
Hema, lovely to have you on theshow.
Hema (01:57):
It's a pleasure to be here, Greg.
Greg (01:59):
As is normal with this podcast, we generally just get
our guests to give a bit of anoverview of their history from a
career perspective.
How did you end up working for alarge property development
company in Auckland?
Hema (02:17):
When I came here, obviously we had to start
afresh, but I knew that when Istarted afresh as a receptionist
for education review office,that's not what I wanted to do.
But it was a matter of trying tofigure out what kind of
profession really held some kindof respect and dignity and
trying to find yourself in a newcountry and all of that.
(02:39):
I was working as a projectcoordinator or a yard manager at
Fulton Hogan at this point oftime when I had a few exposures
to matters related to health andsafety and that kind of rang a
bell in my head or made merealize that that's, Maybe
something that I could look intoand I went and enrolled into
Massey into the GRAD DIP in OSHpaper and I did one paper that I
(03:05):
wasn't sure if I wanted tocommit to an entire course and I
did one paper and I was hookedand I've never looked back since
then.
So it's just, it just felt thatwas like a calling, so to speak.
Sounds terrible to say that, butno, it, it just felt the right
thing to do.
And then I just finished mygraduation my diploma that is,
(03:27):
and then I've just continueddoing health and safety in
different industries.
I've chosen to be a generalistbecause I love the challenge of.
It's moving from one industry toanother, and every five years
when I move, it's like a year ofcomplete immersion in a new
industry, understanding a newwork culture, and I think it
(03:47):
challenges the brain and teachesyou how health and safety works
in different industries.
Greg (03:54):
And so when was the when did you do the Massey course?
Hema (03:58):
Oh, I would have finished it in about 2013.
I was still in Australia at thatpoint of time.
So 2012, 13.
Yeah.
Greg (04:06):
Okay.
And when we spoke just beforeChristmas, I think it was you
talked about the There was someconnections that you found
between the master's degree insocial work and some of the work
that you do in safety.
I'm interested just to hear alittle bit more about what some
of those connections might beand how they helped you with
(04:28):
your health and safety career.
Hema (04:31):
One of the key things that you learn when you are in social
work is a lot of my placementsin social work back in India was
in the slums or were in primaryhealth centers and in adoption
homes and things like that.
So less fortunate.
Group of people that you workedwith and one of the things that
(04:51):
you learn when you go with yourmiddle class values is no matter
how well intentioned if you wantthem to come on the journey, you
have to go at their pace.
You have to get to their leveland.
Make everything that you aresaying to them identifiable for
(05:13):
them to aspire to want to dothat.
We can't go there with ourmiddle class values to say, hey,
you must have a shower everyday.
You must shave every day.
You must wash your clothes everyday because that's what we do.
But we need to understand thatthey are living in a slum.
They don't have access to water.
They don't have access toprivacy and, all of those other
things.
So you have to work from thenthat I think resonates.
(05:37):
in health and safety.
When we want people to do allthe right things, but we have to
start the journey from wherethey are.
And we as health and safetypractitioners need to get to
have that intelligence,emotional psychological maturity
to work with the companies ororganizations at where they are
(05:58):
and Enable them to want toaspire to get to that best
practice place, because thenthat makes it sustainable.
Otherwise, it will happen aslong as we are there.
And the minute our back isturned, it all falls back
because then it becomes personcentric.
But if we want that culture tochange, we would need to work at
their level.
I think that was my biggesttakeaway in terms of relating
(06:22):
how my social work traininghelped me in my health and
safety and gives you a littlebit of patience and teaches you
to persevere and teaches you toexplore tools to how to get to
the person, how to help peopleunderstand what is it that
you're trying to say and makehealth and safety equally
important to them as it isimportant to you.
Greg (06:45):
Fascinating.
And if I put a culturalintelligence lens on that, the
question sometimes gets asked iswhose responsibility is it to
change their behavior whenthey're dealing interculturally?
And generally it's the personwho is perceived to be in the
higher power position, and youtalk about, middle class and
(07:07):
having to, adapt to thepotential thinking of somebody
in a lower class space.
And it's very similar from acultural intelligence spaces,
who's got the perceived oractual higher power status.
And really it is, should betheir responsibility to as I
(07:30):
say, adapt, and that's whatcultural intelligence is all
about.
And in fact, if we think aboutthe word intelligence is about
being able to adapt to a certainsituation, and so cultural
intelligence is being able toadapt to the scenarios of the
other people that you might bedealing with.
That's really very interesting.
(07:51):
And it's one of those.
We talk so much and think somuch about our technical skills
in health and safety, but thenyou add all of this other stuff
in patience.
When was the last time you heardsomebody in health and safety
use the word patience or bepatient?
I'm sure that it happens veryoften.
It's got to happen now.
Hurry up.
Do it.
Hema (08:10):
Yeah.
Greg (08:13):
So I just, I want to explore that a little bit more,
actually, and the researchbetween emotional intelligence
and cultural intelligence wouldsuggest that you can be, you are
more emotionally intelligent, oryou can use emotional
intelligence more when you'redealing with somebody who is
(08:34):
similar or the same as you.
But when you are dealing withsomebody who is different from
you, that's when culturalintelligence kicks in and
becomes a value or of value.
And I guess you've told me a fewstories about scenarios where
you've dealt with people fromyour culture.
(08:54):
from a health and safetyperspective.
One was about I think a prettyregular issue that comes up, I
think around the world aroundrespiratory protection for
people from the Sikh culture whogrow beards.
And I guess that's not justrestricted to the Sikh culture,
but that was the scenario thatI've come across and you've got
(09:17):
an example of how you dealt withthat.
And you also talked about.
Helping some of your friends andfamily with businesses in New
Zealand and their health andsafety, and I think sometimes
you've gone into theirbusinesses and gone, do you want
to talk a little bit more aboutthat, about how you've
interacted with those people?
Firstly, maybe the respiratorysort of protection scenario?
Hema (09:39):
So the this gentleman that I was referring to was a truck
driver driving a hazardoussubstances truck and and
obviously he was decanting andrefilling and he was required to
wear the respiratory protectionand this is I'm talking going
back in the time.
Very early in my days of healthand safety.
(10:00):
And and I noticed from my fromwhere I was in the office that,
he wasn't he wasn't cleanshaven.
So I went up to him and I said,hi, hello.
Of course, we knew each otherbecause we were like a handful
of Indians in this largelyCaucasian group of employees.
So we knew each other.
And we had nodded at each othera few times.
(10:20):
So I went to him and I said tohim, I've been noticing that,
you've been using it, but yourealize that your facial hair
doesn't give you a good seal.
He says, yeah, I know, what canI do?
I'm not going to take my beardoff.
And I was like, but you'restanding here and you're
inhaling the fumes.
I had that conversation with himand he said yeah, that's it.
Fine.
And he just said, yeah, you'refine.
And he turned away and continuedhis work.
(10:41):
So I walked away and thathappened a few times over a
period of a few months.
And I would, whenever I saw him,I would say to him or I would
indicate him, or I would rub myown chin and remind him, Hey,
you still got the beard.
And I, and he would just laughand move on.
So 1 of these days, we just metat smoko and we were at the same
time and he was having his lunchbreak and I was there at the
(11:01):
same time.
And and again, I rubbed my chinto show to him hey, you still
got your beard and he justlaughed and, and I said to him,
look.
I'm not saying this because I'msome kind of a health and safety
fiend, but it is because you aredealing with a hazardous product
and you are decanting in and outthe whole day.
And that's what you're doing.
And you're exposed to the thefumes.
(11:24):
This product has the followinghealth outcomes, and I said to
him, you need to be considerateabout the fact that, you've got
young children, your wifedoesn't work, your parents are
in India, you are supporting twofamilies effectively, and if you
cannot work because you getsick, or you go on ACC, I know
people say you can go on ACC,but you go on ACC, there are
(11:45):
like I talked him through manydifferent scenarios and I said
to him it is for these reasonsthat we say that you must have a
good respiratory protection andyou know you might be doing
everything else right but thisis pulling you down.
He didn't say anything to me atthat point of time he just
nodded and he finished his lunchand I went my way he went his
way and then I didn't see himagain for a couple of weeks.
(12:06):
But when I saw him next, and Ican't remember the timeline of
when I saw him actually next,but I didn't recognize him
because he had no facial hairand I was absolutely stumped.
So I went up to him and I saidto him, what happened?
And he said, I I realized thatWaheguru, which is the God that
(12:27):
the Sikhs refer to, which is Isaid he will understand that.
I'm deviating from my culturalnorm of having facial hair
because I'm doing this for myfamily and I'm sure that he's
not going to be, angry with meand I think that's the reason.
And at no point of time did hesay that thank you for
enlightening me or anything likethat, but I think he knew what
(12:50):
was there, but he just neededsomeone to talk to him and Get,
go with that journey of thatdecision making that he might
have had to have go throughbefore he could come to that
decision.
And he, and I just was there,not that I planned it all in
that way, but I think thattaught me a lesson that it, you,
(13:14):
we need to be, we need topersevere and we need to get
them to feel that, and that daywhen he said to me and I saw him
clean shaven and he said to methat he was sure his God will be
forgiving for me.
I felt like that was, that's thereason I get up in the morning
to come to work because you seethe penny drop sometimes in
people's heads in their mindsand the light goes on and
(13:37):
they're like, Oh, Behind theireyes and you feel like, yes,
this is why I do this, thatmight be one out of many other,
but some events stick out inyour head.
Greg (13:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's a, it's a fascinatingstory.
And just on that deviance ordeviation from religious norms.
That people follow as we weretalking before we started, I've
just come back from Dubai and wehad a, I went on a cultural sort
of learning session with aparticular organization.
(14:10):
And one of the things that.
We talked about and this isnothing to do necessarily with
India, but it's about Ramadan.
And one of the things that thatwe talked about was the ability
within that that process ofRamadan that if fasting during
the day is going to impact yourhealth, you are not obliged to
(14:33):
and so that could be pregnancythe chap that was talking to us
about it was a diabetic.
And fasting could impact on hishealth.
So there is a sort of exemption,if you like from participating
in in that particular activityfor health reasons.
And as your example shows yourguy was was accepting that there
(14:57):
were genuine reasons why thisactivity of having a beard was
maybe not in the best interestof his own health and the health
of all that the stability andwell being of his family.
Yeah.
Outstanding.
Outstanding.
And maybe this is something tothink about towards the end of
(15:19):
the podcast, and you might havesome thoughts about this later,
but how would that conversationgo with a non Indian person
having that conversation withyou, with your guy?
Maybe hold that thought.
I'll give you some time to thinkabout that, and maybe we can
come back to it.
The other thing that you talkedabout was and you mentioned to
(15:40):
this to me a couple of years agothat that you had, outside of
your normal sort of corporatelife that, obviously a few
people from Indian heritage whohave got businesses in New
Zealand, and sometimes you willhelp them out with some of their
health and safety work and doyou want to just talk about that
a little bit?
Hema (15:57):
Sure, I will.
A small side business, myhusband and I'm I go to places
like, warehouse and pickups, notthe warehouse, but a warehouse
of some kind where they storestuff.
This is a warehouse of tiles andother bathroom fittings.
And you go there and you waitfor your order to be delivered
(16:20):
and it comes there and when Iwent to this particular shop, I
saw that the forklift baldtires, the the light wasn't
flashing.
There was no, beeping sound andit was just like on its last
legs, so to speak, and therewere no separation or in the
warehouse.
Everything was overstacked andit was all everything that.
(16:42):
You would say you should not ina warehouse was pretty much
there.
Maybe I'm being unfair by sayingeverything, but a lot of stuff
was quite concerning.
So when we had that initialconversation so there was an
elderly gentleman who, was the,not the guard, but supervisor
managing this warehouse.
So I said to him, Hey, I'm happyto help and, just get some few
(17:04):
things done here so that you canmake sure that the operators are
safe.
And he, again, he listened tome, but he didn't say much about
it.
And he said.
No, he doesn't want, he didn'tsay anything, but I don't go to
the warehouse very often.
So the second time when I wentpost COVID and I saw it had
deteriorated even more.
And so I went and spoke to himmore and I said to him, uncle,
(17:28):
you have not done this.
And we need to do this becausethis will happen, et cetera, et
cetera.
And he said, Oh, don't worryabout it.
Child, it's all good health anddon't worry about it.
I kept continuing to do that,but around the same time, around
the same time, we were also, wego grocery shopping to
Sandringham or to wherever wehave Indian shops there.
And I had noticed that, so thisgentleman, I didn't have any
(17:51):
luck with this gentleman.
So I thought, Oh, Maybe Ishouldn't push too much.
My husband was like, don't spoilmy trade relations by your
health and safety.
So I said, okay, fine.
So we I paused that and we weretalking to this this grocery
shop owner.
And I noticed that when I wanteda can of oil or whatever it was
that I can't remember now, itwas kept at the top.
(18:13):
And that guy had to like, Monkeyclimbed through the racks to get
me the 20 liter can and I saidto him, why do you store it
there?
And why don't you keep it here?
And he says that is how it waskept.
So that is how we are doing itall the time.
So when I went to back to payfor my groceries, I said to him,
I just noticed that your guy isclimbing, clambering over the
(18:33):
top to get that thing.
Do you not think that it wouldbe easier if you kept the bigger
and the heavier things at thebottom?
He says no, that is easier forus to stack and manage because
people only take smallquantities, but the bigger
quantities are very rarely askedfor.
So that is why we keep themthere.
And when people need it, we getthere.
putting people at risk.
No, they know how to do it.
(18:54):
Don't worry about it.
I said, okay, fine.
And then we went there again amonth later and I noticed that
those things were still likethat.
So I went and spoke to again,that the father of the business
owner was a father.
And I said to him, uncle, thatstill is there like that.
I think it's going to be hard.
If somebody falls from there,they'll hurt themselves, or even
(19:14):
if that falls on one of yourcustomer's head because it is so
overfull and all of that.
And he said, Oh no, I'll tell myboys to stack it properly.
It's okay.
Don't worry about it.
So now I said, okay, fine.
And all this time, my husband ofhis with me, he's rolling his
eyes always at me for my, thisconstant health and safety
thing.
But then the few weeks later,when we went back, there was a
(19:35):
son who was there.
And I said to the son, I said,I've been talking to your dad
and, your dad has been quitehe's been quite generous in
listening to me.
But I just thought I should letyou also know that, these things
at the top, they're too heavyfor these young boys to move and
they sometimes are precariouslyplaced position and they're
dropping stuff off and they areusing ladders that have no just
(19:57):
stacking against your racks andit's quite unsafe.
And he said, he came around withme, which one are you talking
about?
And then I showed him and I saidto him, this is what happens.
And he says, oh, okay, I'll talkto my dad and I'll see what I
can do.
And surprisingly, when I back,when I went back things had
moved, things had changed andall the big things were at the
bottom and and the top ones werefor, kept with boxes which you
(20:20):
would take the entire box down,but not individual sacks of rice
or sacks of not sacks, but cansof oil and so on.
So I said, Oh, that's a, that'san improvement.
So I but on that day the tillwas the father.
So I said, Oh, uncle, that'sreally good what you've done.
I see that, you've changed it.
Yes, I know.
My son, he's very good.
He decided that, all of this isvery unsafe.
(20:41):
And so he wants to move it down.
And I said, son, it is yourshop.
You can do whatever you want.
I said, Oh, that's excellent.
Very good outcome, uncle.
That's really good.
And I walked away from there.
But I was just thinking of thedifference in the two scenarios.
This older gentleman with thewarehouse didn't want anything
to do, and he was very staunch.
He said no, so you leave italone.
(21:01):
And then in this place, youspeak to a younger person, and
then it suddenly they havehijacked it as their idea, which
I have no issue at all, becausethe outcome is what bothers me.
But it was but again, you willsee the timeline is, nothing is
like in a week's time or twoweeks time, which is what we
expect in corporate culture, we,as a health and safety person, I
(21:25):
come in and I say, oh, here ismy health and safety manual,
start doing this from tomorrow,and then we have an inspection
and nobody's doing it, and wesay, ah, these people, they
don't do anything, but I thinkthat is where I think we lose
our people.
Greg (21:38):
One conversation at a time, yes.
And I think the other thing is,and this just goes back to that
emotional intelligenceconversation as well, me or any
non Indian person probablycouldn't go into an environment
like that and refer to the oldgentleman as uncle, that just
doesn't work.
Right.
(21:58):
And they're not going to call mechild.
But and so that's, I thinkthat's a great reflection of the
difference between thatemotional intelligence That
you're able to explore and useand and as you say, I think the
best way to influence is toactually make people think that
your ideas with their ideasalways works, right?
(22:20):
And And so the challenge thenbecomes, how does a Caucasian or
non Indian person respond,react, deal with those types of
situations?
Because, there are plenty ofbusinesses out there that are
Indian run where they might havewant to get a health and safety
(22:41):
person in but if you come inwith your sort of Western ideas
around how to do things and whento do them, and got to be done
now how do we approach that?
How do we talk to people?
Who do we talk to?
You've talked about even yourchallenges with generational
differences, and that may not betoo dissimilar in a Caucasian
(23:02):
business or Pākehā business, theolder person might just go, Oh,
that's the way we've always doneit.
It's fine type of thing.
Hema (23:10):
Interesting.
This is interesting that I'venoticed is Indians who work for
businesses that are owned byBritish or Kiwi or somebody
who's not an Indian businessowner as an employee.
they're quite happy to followwhatever is the health and
(23:31):
safety expectation.
But when they run a business, asmall to medium business like
that, somehow it's the samecountry, the same law, similar
hazards, similar risks, but theyseem to not want to have the
same rules.
that is applicable to them inthe business that they run,
(23:53):
which I find quite interesting.
And to give you another example,we did some furniture in the
house like a few weeks ago, andthis guy who came to do the
furniture has a full time jobworking for a small to medium
Some kind of a wood makingcompany and he did this
wardrobes for us.
So he would cut the wardrobes inthe in the factory and then come
(24:16):
home and install it in ourhouse.
And I saw that many, but when hewould come to install, he would
have to do like littlemeasurements because my house is
an 100 year old house anddoesn't have right angles at
all.
He would come in with themeasurement and then he would
have to come and then trim alittle bit and things like that.
And then I noticed that hewasn't using any of his PPE at
all.
So I went to him and I said tohim, how do you work like this
(24:39):
with no safety shoes and you arenot wearing your earplugs when
you're using your saw and thingslike that?
He says, oh, yeah, I should havedone, right?
I said in your off, in yourwork, do you get away?
He says, oh my God, in my work,I can't even walk.
10 steps in the factory withoutall of these things, the
supervisor will immediatelycatch.
And I said, so because there isno supervisor, you're not doing
(25:01):
it here.
He says, oh, madam sorry, Ishould have done it.
I should have done it.
But it is, it's, you see thedifference in how it is.
It's because it's mandated.
They will, there is awillingness to do it.
But here, because it's a home,they don't want to do it.
And I said to him, Your risk isthe same.
You're still going to get deaf,whether you are working there or
(25:21):
you're working here, or you willstill cut your finger if you're
not going to wear the rightgloves and all.
He says no, I agree, but Ishould have done it.
But it's, I think it's just theyapproach it quite differently
when they do it as an employeeand then versus when they run
their own business.
And I have never understood.
What is different in that andpossibly maybe another few years
(25:43):
of study of trying to understandpeople's mind about and asking
them question as to if you arehappy to wear your PPE there,
why are you not wearing PPE herewhen you're doing the same job?
Greg (25:54):
Do you think understanding of we don't talk about
legislation necessarily, but thestandards expected.
Is it understanding, as you say,the difference between an
employee, when you're anemployee, you're told to do ABC,
rightly or wrongly.
But now I'm a business ownerover here and actually, I don't
understand.
I'm not sure if that would bethe situation.
(26:15):
The different cultural scenariosabout around health and safety
and workplaces and translatethat from an Indian business in
India to an Indian businesshere.
Hema (26:26):
possibly very likely.
But like I said, I have no, Ihaven't even had that
conversation with anyone to evensay that.
Anecdotally, this is what Ithink.
But I found that veryfascinating and I thought I
should try and experiment andtry and see if this happens more
often.
So I should go into Indianbusinesses and see what they do
about safety versus what theywould do if it was if they were
(26:51):
employed somewhere.
Like I, because I'm in precinctand I, we have lots of
construction and fit outactivities and I go to inspect
them.
There are lots of Indiansubcontractors that work for
large Kiwi owned companies and Isee them all properly kitted out
and everything is correctly doneand I wonder every now and then
I should get that gentleman tocome and do some work in my
(27:12):
house, just cook up a job sothat he can come and then I want
to see how he does that job.
And then if it is everythingremains the same then and I'm
like, great he understands whyhe has to do these things.
But if he doesn't, then I haveto ask him, why my brother, why?
Greg (27:29):
I mean, is there a context thing there in terms of how
Indian people like to becommunicated with?
Are they a sort of culture thatneeds lots of detail as to why
we're doing something, or arethey more casual and just we'll
go with the flow?
Do we have a, what is expectedthere a difference there?
Hema (27:49):
Like most people, we all like to be told why we have to
do something, and I think thatremains the same everywhere.
But I think with the mostIndians And I, the word I'm
going to use now will befamiliar to people who are
coming from see the northernpart of India from Mumbai
upwards.
So we have something calledJugaad.
(28:11):
Jugaad is like the Kiwi numbereight wire.
It's like a, ingenious Kiwisolution, finding a workaround,
finding a way to make it happendespite everything, so that is
what we call a Jugaad.
So I think a lot of our mindsetworks with, let's do this with.
(28:34):
Minimum effort, maximum outputand with and so it's everything
is like a Jugaad.
So everything has to be likequickly done and you get paid
and you move on to the next onekind of things.
And I'm sure culturally thosekind of things exist in every
culture.
Every culture will have a wordthat describes Jugaad for them.
(28:56):
And I think and even the number8 wire that we talk about in
Kiwi context, and that is whereit is.
It is we have to have that thingdone.
So I just did it this way.
And if it works, we say, wow,great innovation.
If it doesn't, we say, did notfollow the JSA, I think it is
very interpretive of that.
So I had, I don't have an answeras to why people would do that,
(29:18):
but I think a lot of it is ourmindset that we want to be here,
get the job done, move on to thenext one, because ultimately we
want to pay our rent and we wantto pay the mortgage and, like
the usual human motivations thatpeople have.
Greg (29:34):
I was going to say, I think that the number eight
wire, I think we think in NewZealand that we're special and
that we're the only country inthe world or the only culture
that has that approach tothings.
But actually, I think, as yousay, I think everybody has a
word or a phrase that reflectsthe same the same thing.
So I don't think it's any,anything special.
So sorry, you were going to saysomething.
Hema (29:53):
No, I was just going to say that apart from the fact
that, we we want to get thingsdone.
I, yeah.
People don't really think abouthealth and safety.
It has taken almost, what now,15 years that I've, 15, 17 years
that I've been doing health andsafety that people still
question.
I think for the better part ofmy earlier days, people thought
(30:16):
I just did fire evacuationdrills and first aid course and
things like that in terms ofsafety.
That's what people think.
So when I say I'm studying humanfactors and ergonomics, people
say, how much ergonomics can youdo?
Why is there like a whole courseon ergonomics?
Because they think of economicsas workstation set up and so
(30:36):
yeah, I think that understandingand that knowledge is not there
as to how scientific andprofessional this whole space
is, part of the education.
I think of not just the Indians.
I think.
People generally.
Greg (30:52):
Yeah, so as we wrap up, I don't know if you've had a
chance to multitask and thinkabout our conversation earlier,
but Kiwi health and safetyperson, not Indian, going into a
an Indian workplace, how am Igoing to deal with it?
How am I going to, who am Igoing to talk to?
How am I going to talk to them?
(31:12):
What are a couple of tips thatyou've got for us?
Hema (31:15):
There might be some if there are any Indians listening
to this podcast, they maydisagree with me on this small
point, but I think Indians byand large, at least of my, the
last would be my generation, Ithink have a little bit of the
colonial hangover.
Where we think that the whiteman has all the answer and that
anything that the white man saysis worth listening to.
(31:39):
The younger kids whether it isin India or whether here it is,
they have no such they have nosuch issues.
They're all like untothemselves, they're law unto
themselves and they'll do whatis right by them.
While Kiwi can, Kiwi or a SouthAfrican or, British, whoever,
white person gets into anyIndian owned or any ethnic owned
business and they will tellthem, you must do this way.
(32:02):
They will all say, yes sir.
But I don't think that therewill be a total buy in because
there should be the time to betold something, to process that
in your head, then to see howthat impacts your business, what
it does to your bottom line,what it does to your time, to
your staff, and all of thattakes Some time and most people
(32:27):
don't sit down one day and say,I'm not going to think about
anything else.
I'm going to think about whatthat person told me and I'm
going to try and work out themath.
They don't do it like that.
It takes time to sit inside, tobe in their mind and it festers
away and it slowly comes out ofthe other side, either a yay or
a nay.
And I think that.
(32:47):
is what is important.
And most Kiwis when they are inposition of power, I think they
understand that they need to bethey need to they need to be
polite and all.
So Kiwis are amazingly polite.
It took me a few years aftercoming here to understand that
some of the sarcasm that comesout of Kiwi is actually like a
(33:11):
way of telling us off for notdoing something right.
And I just thought it was beingfunny, but it took me some time,
but so Kiwis are exceedinglypolite.
And I sometimes wonder whethersomething gets lost in
translation when Kiwis in theirvery polite manner say, Polite
is not necessarily culturallyintelligent.
How many people make the effortto understand why somebody grows
(33:32):
a beard?
Why is it important for thatperson to have the beard?
What will it mean to the personto not have the beard?
I don't think we ask thosequestions and we need to ask
those questions.
If we perceive That people arehaving barriers to convert to
what we want them to, then wegot to ask them why the barrier
(33:55):
and how is that barrier?
Is it even a barrier from theirperspective?
I don't think we asked thatquestion.
And that is where thosequestions that we ask, the
curious questions that we askare very important.
And when you get those answers.
To not be like, Oh my God howcan you even do that?
Don't do that.
(34:16):
Just accept it.
Because I just found out myhusband went to base camp to
Everest base camp.
And he said that in Tibet insome of these monks are trained
in chopping up human bodiesbecause they don't have any way
to get rid of a corpse.
So they chop them up and putthem in the river for the river,
(34:37):
the fish to feed.
And that's why Tibetan monks wholive in that area don't eat fish
at all, because it's like eatingyour ancestors.
So when I heard this, I wasabsolutely aghast and I went
back and I started doing somereading to try and understand
this whole context.
But a couple of people that Itold the story to, they were
like, Oh my God, I can't thinkof it.
Oh, shit.
(34:57):
That is terrible.
Like, why is it terrible?
We, you living here in NewZealand or in India with lots of
land and perfect temperateclimate, you have so many
options to do what you want todo with human remains, but they
don't.
And this is the best way in anenvironmentally sustainable way
that they do it.
So I think that judgmentalreaction, I think if we can have
(35:21):
some control over it it willhelp in getting our foot in the
minds of people that we want tochange.
Greg (35:32):
Fascinating.
And there's so many of thosetypes of examples that we hear
about and we make judgments on,isn't there, whether it's
treatment of women in the MiddleEast or our view of treatment of
women in the Middle East to yourtype of example.
There's a great examplehappening in the US now with a
certain president and and someof the things that, that are
(35:53):
coming out of there that arecreating lots of controversy.
And so that curiosity piece, Ithink is really fascinating.
Yes, we're starting to see thosesorts of conversations being had
in the safety space.
Absolutely.
But I don't think it's enough,and it's the questions that you
(36:13):
pose, tell us about the, theculture and how does that link
to, how you present yourself andthe clothing you wear and
various other things.
And I think sometimes I've hadthis conversation with with a
couple of people from a Maoriperspective, I think there's a
there's a fear that if we askthose questions, we might get
called out as a racist and butactually it's nothing to do with
(36:35):
that, and people are happy totalk about their culture, so
long as I guess the questionsasked in an appropriate way and
just, you've talked about somany things that I think will
will be some great analysis,generational differences.
I don't think there'sgenerational differences, sorry,
I don't think the generationaldifferences are necessarily any
(36:57):
different between Pākehā andIndian and American, the older
generation are going to have aparticular view and the younger
generation are going to havethat, that different view.
The concept of time, and I'vetalked about this publicly in
various forums, the word time isapparently the most popular noun
in the English language.
(37:18):
And so we're always late we'realways going to be somewhere on
time.
The meeting starts at this time.
It finishes at that.
So I haven't got enough time,whereas many other cultures
don't see that and the curiositything.
It's just been it's been afabulous discussion.
The, is it do God
Hema (37:36):
do God?
Yes, that day.
You J.
A.
D.
do God.
Greg (37:42):
Okay.
Nice.
I'll have to do some research onthat and and and so if I can
find my local sort of Indianneighbor, and if I went and
asked them what that would mean,they might know what it is,
depending on where they comefrom.
Yeah,
Hema (37:54):
they come from, because again, because India is so vast,
you will have a similar word forit in the southern parts of
India and the eastern parts ofIndia, but it's the number
eight, wire ten, the mentality.
That's what it is.
Greg (38:07):
Yeah, no, wonderful.
Hey, Hema, it's been a greatconversation.
And I'm looking forward to goingthrough and listening to this
and and preparing it forrelease.
Thanks so much for your time.
Thank you.
Been lovely to catch up again.
And yeah, just appreciateappreciate the conversation.
Hema (38:24):
Thank you very much, Greg.
Now I can tick off being apodcaster on my, from my list.
All right.
Thank you, Greg.
Have a good one.
See ya.
You
Greg (38:35):
It's been an insightful conversation with Hema Puthran.
We explored the deep connectionbetween cultural intelligence,
workplace safety, and the humanside of leadership.
My key takeaways from ourconversation?
Hema explored theintersectionality of CQ and
safety by highlighting howadapting to different cultural
(38:57):
contexts is crucial in aworkplace safety setting.
Understanding where people arecoming from, both culturally.
and professionally makes safetyinitiatives more effective and
sustainable.
Hema's background in social workhas shaped her approach to
(39:18):
health and safety.
Just like in social work wherepractitioners must meet people
where they are, safetyprofessionals must also tailor
their communications andstrategies to resonate with
workers lived experience.
Through storytelling, Hemaillustrated the importance of
patience, perseverance, andtrust in getting people to buy
(39:42):
into safety messages.
Rather than imposing rules,successful safety professionals
engage in ongoing conversationsand understand the why behind
people's behaviors.
Navigating cultural barriers insafety practice was an area for
discussion, and there was animpactful case of a Sikh
(40:03):
worker's decision to shave hisbeard for respiratory health.
This decision, driven by opendialogue and personal
reflection, underscores the needto balance cultural traditions
with workplace safetyrequirements.
We explored the generational andcultural divide in business
(40:23):
safety practices, and Hemashared insights.
into how health and safety areperceived differently by Indian
employees versus Indian businessowners in New Zealand.
The difference in compliancebetween working for a company
and running one is a fascinatingcultural and behavioral study.
(40:46):
So we've got some lessons forsafety professionals in
multicultural workplaces.
First, approach those culturalconversations with curiosity,
not judgment.
Second, understand how powerdynamics affect communication
and change.
Be patient.
Change happens one conversationat a time.
(41:10):
And recognize That emotionalintelligence and cultural
intelligence must work togetherto create lasting safety
improvements.
This discussion has been apowerful reminder that health
and safety is about more thanpolicies.
It's about people.
If you enjoyed this episode, Besure to subscribe and follow the
(41:32):
podcast for more thoughtprovoking discussions.
Let's keep the conversationgoing.
Have you encountered culturalchallenges in workplace safety?
How did you manage them?
How did you navigate them?
Drop a comment in or send me amessage.
I'd love to hear yourexperiences.
so we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
(41:55):
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
(42:18):
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:25):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:46):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:10):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
In this episode, we're talkingwith experienced health and
safety professional based inAuckland, Hema Puthran, who is a
senior health and safety advisorfor Precinct Properties and has
held roles in other largecorporates in New Zealand,
including OCS New Zealand,Regional Facilities Auckland,
(01:33):
and Recall.
Also, I believe you might havehad some time with Fulton Hogan,
although maybe not in a healthand safety role.
Hema's career in health andsafety spans 17 years and along
with a health and safetyqualification, she also has a
master's degree in social work,which was obtained from the Tata
Institute of Social Sciences inIndia.
(01:54):
Hema, lovely to have you on theshow.
Hema (01:57):
It's a pleasure to be here, Greg.
Greg (01:59):
As is normal with this podcast, we generally just get
our guests to give a bit of anoverview of their history from a
career perspective.
How did you end up working for alarge property development
company in Auckland?
Hema (02:17):
When I came here, obviously we had to start
afresh, but I knew that when Istarted afresh as a receptionist
for education review office,that's not what I wanted to do.
But it was a matter of trying tofigure out what kind of
profession really held some kindof respect and dignity and
trying to find yourself in a newcountry and all of that.
(02:39):
I was working as a projectcoordinator or a yard manager at
Fulton Hogan at this point oftime when I had a few exposures
to matters related to health andsafety and that kind of rang a
bell in my head or made merealize that that's, Maybe
something that I could look intoand I went and enrolled into
Massey into the GRAD DIP in OSHpaper and I did one paper that I
(03:05):
wasn't sure if I wanted tocommit to an entire course and I
did one paper and I was hookedand I've never looked back since
then.
So it's just, it just felt thatwas like a calling, so to speak.
Sounds terrible to say that, butno, it, it just felt the right
thing to do.
And then I just finished mygraduation my diploma that is,
(03:27):
and then I've just continueddoing health and safety in
different industries.
I've chosen to be a generalistbecause I love the challenge of.
It's moving from one industry toanother, and every five years
when I move, it's like a year ofcomplete immersion in a new
industry, understanding a newwork culture, and I think it
(03:47):
challenges the brain and teachesyou how health and safety works
in different industries.
Greg (03:54):
And so when was the when did you do the Massey course?
Hema (03:58):
Oh, I would have finished it in about 2013.
I was still in Australia at thatpoint of time.
So 2012, 13.
Yeah.
Greg (04:06):
Okay.
And when we spoke just beforeChristmas, I think it was you
talked about the There was someconnections that you found
between the master's degree insocial work and some of the work
that you do in safety.
I'm interested just to hear alittle bit more about what some
of those connections might beand how they helped you with
(04:28):
your health and safety career.
Hema (04:31):
One of the key things that you learn when you are in social
work is a lot of my placementsin social work back in India was
in the slums or were in primaryhealth centers and in adoption
homes and things like that.
So less fortunate.
Group of people that you workedwith and one of the things that
(04:51):
you learn when you go with yourmiddle class values is no matter
how well intentioned if you wantthem to come on the journey, you
have to go at their pace.
You have to get to their leveland.
Make everything that you aresaying to them identifiable for
(05:13):
them to aspire to want to dothat.
We can't go there with ourmiddle class values to say, hey,
you must have a shower everyday.
You must shave every day.
You must wash your clothes everyday because that's what we do.
But we need to understand thatthey are living in a slum.
They don't have access to water.
They don't have access toprivacy and, all of those other
things.
So you have to work from thenthat I think resonates.
(05:37):
in health and safety.
When we want people to do allthe right things, but we have to
start the journey from wherethey are.
And we as health and safetypractitioners need to get to
have that intelligence,emotional psychological maturity
to work with the companies ororganizations at where they are
(05:58):
and Enable them to want toaspire to get to that best
practice place, because thenthat makes it sustainable.
Otherwise, it will happen aslong as we are there.
And the minute our back isturned, it all falls back
because then it becomes personcentric.
But if we want that culture tochange, we would need to work at
their level.
I think that was my biggesttakeaway in terms of relating
(06:22):
how my social work traininghelped me in my health and
safety and gives you a littlebit of patience and teaches you
to persevere and teaches you toexplore tools to how to get to
the person, how to help peopleunderstand what is it that
you're trying to say and makehealth and safety equally
important to them as it isimportant to you.
Greg (06:45):
Fascinating.
And if I put a culturalintelligence lens on that, the
question sometimes gets asked iswhose responsibility is it to
change their behavior whenthey're dealing interculturally?
And generally it's the personwho is perceived to be in the
higher power position, and youtalk about, middle class and
(07:07):
having to, adapt to thepotential thinking of somebody
in a lower class space.
And it's very similar from acultural intelligence spaces,
who's got the perceived oractual higher power status.
And really it is, should betheir responsibility to as I
(07:30):
say, adapt, and that's whatcultural intelligence is all
about.
And in fact, if we think aboutthe word intelligence is about
being able to adapt to a certainsituation, and so cultural
intelligence is being able toadapt to the scenarios of the
other people that you might bedealing with.
That's really very interesting.
(07:51):
And it's one of those.
We talk so much and think somuch about our technical skills
in health and safety, but thenyou add all of this other stuff
in patience.
When was the last time you heardsomebody in health and safety
use the word patience or bepatient?
I'm sure that it happens veryoften.
It's got to happen now.
Hurry up.
Do it.
Hema (08:10):
Yeah.
Greg (08:13):
So I just, I want to explore that a little bit more,
actually, and the researchbetween emotional intelligence
and cultural intelligence wouldsuggest that you can be, you are
more emotionally intelligent, oryou can use emotional
intelligence more when you'redealing with somebody who is
(08:34):
similar or the same as you.
But when you are dealing withsomebody who is different from
you, that's when culturalintelligence kicks in and
becomes a value or of value.
And I guess you've told me a fewstories about scenarios where
you've dealt with people fromyour culture.
(08:54):
from a health and safetyperspective.
One was about I think a prettyregular issue that comes up, I
think around the world aroundrespiratory protection for
people from the Sikh culture whogrow beards.
And I guess that's not justrestricted to the Sikh culture,
but that was the scenario thatI've come across and you've got
(09:17):
an example of how you dealt withthat.
And you also talked about.
Helping some of your friends andfamily with businesses in New
Zealand and their health andsafety, and I think sometimes
you've gone into theirbusinesses and gone, do you want
to talk a little bit more aboutthat, about how you've
interacted with those people?
Firstly, maybe the respiratorysort of protection scenario?
Hema (09:39):
So the this gentleman that I was referring to was a truck
driver driving a hazardoussubstances truck and and
obviously he was decanting andrefilling and he was required to
wear the respiratory protectionand this is I'm talking going
back in the time.
Very early in my days of healthand safety.
(10:00):
And and I noticed from my fromwhere I was in the office that,
he wasn't he wasn't cleanshaven.
So I went up to him and I said,hi, hello.
Of course, we knew each otherbecause we were like a handful
of Indians in this largelyCaucasian group of employees.
So we knew each other.
And we had nodded at each othera few times.
(10:20):
So I went to him and I said tohim, I've been noticing that,
you've been using it, but yourealize that your facial hair
doesn't give you a good seal.
He says, yeah, I know, what canI do?
I'm not going to take my beardoff.
And I was like, but you'restanding here and you're
inhaling the fumes.
I had that conversation with himand he said yeah, that's it.
Fine.
And he just said, yeah, you'refine.
And he turned away and continuedhis work.
(10:41):
So I walked away and thathappened a few times over a
period of a few months.
And I would, whenever I saw him,I would say to him or I would
indicate him, or I would rub myown chin and remind him, Hey,
you still got the beard.
And I, and he would just laughand move on.
So 1 of these days, we just metat smoko and we were at the same
time and he was having his lunchbreak and I was there at the
(11:01):
same time.
And and again, I rubbed my chinto show to him hey, you still
got your beard and he justlaughed and, and I said to him,
look.
I'm not saying this because I'msome kind of a health and safety
fiend, but it is because you aredealing with a hazardous product
and you are decanting in and outthe whole day.
And that's what you're doing.
And you're exposed to the thefumes.
(11:24):
This product has the followinghealth outcomes, and I said to
him, you need to be considerateabout the fact that, you've got
young children, your wifedoesn't work, your parents are
in India, you are supporting twofamilies effectively, and if you
cannot work because you getsick, or you go on ACC, I know
people say you can go on ACC,but you go on ACC, there are
(11:45):
like I talked him through manydifferent scenarios and I said
to him it is for these reasonsthat we say that you must have a
good respiratory protection andyou know you might be doing
everything else right but thisis pulling you down.
He didn't say anything to me atthat point of time he just
nodded and he finished his lunchand I went my way he went his
way and then I didn't see himagain for a couple of weeks.
(12:06):
But when I saw him next, and Ican't remember the timeline of
when I saw him actually next,but I didn't recognize him
because he had no facial hairand I was absolutely stumped.
So I went up to him and I saidto him, what happened?
And he said, I I realized thatWaheguru, which is the God that
(12:27):
the Sikhs refer to, which is Isaid he will understand that.
I'm deviating from my culturalnorm of having facial hair
because I'm doing this for myfamily and I'm sure that he's
not going to be, angry with meand I think that's the reason.
And at no point of time did hesay that thank you for
enlightening me or anything likethat, but I think he knew what
(12:50):
was there, but he just neededsomeone to talk to him and Get,
go with that journey of thatdecision making that he might
have had to have go throughbefore he could come to that
decision.
And he, and I just was there,not that I planned it all in
that way, but I think thattaught me a lesson that it, you,
(13:14):
we need to be, we need topersevere and we need to get
them to feel that, and that daywhen he said to me and I saw him
clean shaven and he said to methat he was sure his God will be
forgiving for me.
I felt like that was, that's thereason I get up in the morning
to come to work because you seethe penny drop sometimes in
people's heads in their mindsand the light goes on and
(13:37):
they're like, Oh, Behind theireyes and you feel like, yes,
this is why I do this, thatmight be one out of many other,
but some events stick out inyour head.
Greg (13:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's a, it's a fascinatingstory.
And just on that deviance ordeviation from religious norms.
That people follow as we weretalking before we started, I've
just come back from Dubai and wehad a, I went on a cultural sort
of learning session with aparticular organization.
(14:10):
And one of the things that.
We talked about and this isnothing to do necessarily with
India, but it's about Ramadan.
And one of the things that thatwe talked about was the ability
within that that process ofRamadan that if fasting during
the day is going to impact yourhealth, you are not obliged to
(14:33):
and so that could be pregnancythe chap that was talking to us
about it was a diabetic.
And fasting could impact on hishealth.
So there is a sort of exemption,if you like from participating
in in that particular activityfor health reasons.
And as your example shows yourguy was was accepting that there
(14:57):
were genuine reasons why thisactivity of having a beard was
maybe not in the best interestof his own health and the health
of all that the stability andwell being of his family.
Yeah.
Outstanding.
Outstanding.
And maybe this is something tothink about towards the end of
(15:19):
the podcast, and you might havesome thoughts about this later,
but how would that conversationgo with a non Indian person
having that conversation withyou, with your guy?
Maybe hold that thought.
I'll give you some time to thinkabout that, and maybe we can
come back to it.
The other thing that you talkedabout was and you mentioned to
(15:40):
this to me a couple of years agothat that you had, outside of
your normal sort of corporatelife that, obviously a few
people from Indian heritage whohave got businesses in New
Zealand, and sometimes you willhelp them out with some of their
health and safety work and doyou want to just talk about that
a little bit?
Hema (15:57):
Sure, I will.
A small side business, myhusband and I'm I go to places
like, warehouse and pickups, notthe warehouse, but a warehouse
of some kind where they storestuff.
This is a warehouse of tiles andother bathroom fittings.
And you go there and you waitfor your order to be delivered
(16:20):
and it comes there and when Iwent to this particular shop, I
saw that the forklift baldtires, the the light wasn't
flashing.
There was no, beeping sound andit was just like on its last
legs, so to speak, and therewere no separation or in the
warehouse.
Everything was overstacked andit was all everything that.
(16:42):
You would say you should not ina warehouse was pretty much
there.
Maybe I'm being unfair by sayingeverything, but a lot of stuff
was quite concerning.
So when we had that initialconversation so there was an
elderly gentleman who, was the,not the guard, but supervisor
managing this warehouse.
So I said to him, Hey, I'm happyto help and, just get some few
(17:04):
things done here so that you canmake sure that the operators are
safe.
And he, again, he listened tome, but he didn't say much about
it.
And he said.
No, he doesn't want, he didn'tsay anything, but I don't go to
the warehouse very often.
So the second time when I wentpost COVID and I saw it had
deteriorated even more.
And so I went and spoke to himmore and I said to him, uncle,
(17:28):
you have not done this.
And we need to do this becausethis will happen, et cetera, et
cetera.
And he said, Oh, don't worryabout it.
Child, it's all good health anddon't worry about it.
I kept continuing to do that,but around the same time, around
the same time, we were also, wego grocery shopping to
Sandringham or to wherever wehave Indian shops there.
And I had noticed that, so thisgentleman, I didn't have any
(17:51):
luck with this gentleman.
So I thought, Oh, Maybe Ishouldn't push too much.
My husband was like, don't spoilmy trade relations by your
health and safety.
So I said, okay, fine.
So we I paused that and we weretalking to this this grocery
shop owner.
And I noticed that when I wanteda can of oil or whatever it was
that I can't remember now, itwas kept at the top.
(18:13):
And that guy had to like, Monkeyclimbed through the racks to get
me the 20 liter can and I saidto him, why do you store it
there?
And why don't you keep it here?
And he says that is how it waskept.
So that is how we are doing itall the time.
So when I went to back to payfor my groceries, I said to him,
I just noticed that your guy isclimbing, clambering over the
(18:33):
top to get that thing.
Do you not think that it wouldbe easier if you kept the bigger
and the heavier things at thebottom?
He says no, that is easier forus to stack and manage because
people only take smallquantities, but the bigger
quantities are very rarely askedfor.
So that is why we keep themthere.
And when people need it, we getthere.
putting people at risk.
No, they know how to do it.
(18:54):
Don't worry about it.
I said, okay, fine.
And then we went there again amonth later and I noticed that
those things were still likethat.
So I went and spoke to again,that the father of the business
owner was a father.
And I said to him, uncle, thatstill is there like that.
I think it's going to be hard.
If somebody falls from there,they'll hurt themselves, or even
(19:14):
if that falls on one of yourcustomer's head because it is so
overfull and all of that.
And he said, Oh no, I'll tell myboys to stack it properly.
It's okay.
Don't worry about it.
So now I said, okay, fine.
And all this time, my husband ofhis with me, he's rolling his
eyes always at me for my, thisconstant health and safety
thing.
But then the few weeks later,when we went back, there was a
(19:35):
son who was there.
And I said to the son, I said,I've been talking to your dad
and, your dad has been quitehe's been quite generous in
listening to me.
But I just thought I should letyou also know that, these things
at the top, they're too heavyfor these young boys to move and
they sometimes are precariouslyplaced position and they're
dropping stuff off and they areusing ladders that have no just
(19:57):
stacking against your racks andit's quite unsafe.
And he said, he came around withme, which one are you talking
about?
And then I showed him and I saidto him, this is what happens.
And he says, oh, okay, I'll talkto my dad and I'll see what I
can do.
And surprisingly, when I back,when I went back things had
moved, things had changed andall the big things were at the
bottom and and the top ones werefor, kept with boxes which you
(20:20):
would take the entire box down,but not individual sacks of rice
or sacks of not sacks, but cansof oil and so on.
So I said, Oh, that's a, that'san improvement.
So I but on that day the tillwas the father.
So I said, Oh, uncle, that'sreally good what you've done.
I see that, you've changed it.
Yes, I know.
My son, he's very good.
He decided that, all of this isvery unsafe.
(20:41):
And so he wants to move it down.
And I said, son, it is yourshop.
You can do whatever you want.
I said, Oh, that's excellent.
Very good outcome, uncle.
That's really good.
And I walked away from there.
But I was just thinking of thedifference in the two scenarios.
This older gentleman with thewarehouse didn't want anything
to do, and he was very staunch.
He said no, so you leave italone.
(21:01):
And then in this place, youspeak to a younger person, and
then it suddenly they havehijacked it as their idea, which
I have no issue at all, becausethe outcome is what bothers me.
But it was but again, you willsee the timeline is, nothing is
like in a week's time or twoweeks time, which is what we
expect in corporate culture, we,as a health and safety person, I
(21:25):
come in and I say, oh, here ismy health and safety manual,
start doing this from tomorrow,and then we have an inspection
and nobody's doing it, and wesay, ah, these people, they
don't do anything, but I thinkthat is where I think we lose
our people.
Greg (21:38):
One conversation at a time, yes.
And I think the other thing is,and this just goes back to that
emotional intelligenceconversation as well, me or any
non Indian person probablycouldn't go into an environment
like that and refer to the oldgentleman as uncle, that just
doesn't work.
Right.
(21:58):
And they're not going to call mechild.
But and so that's, I thinkthat's a great reflection of the
difference between thatemotional intelligence That
you're able to explore and useand and as you say, I think the
best way to influence is toactually make people think that
your ideas with their ideasalways works, right?
(22:20):
And And so the challenge thenbecomes, how does a Caucasian or
non Indian person respond,react, deal with those types of
situations?
Because, there are plenty ofbusinesses out there that are
Indian run where they might havewant to get a health and safety
(22:41):
person in but if you come inwith your sort of Western ideas
around how to do things and whento do them, and got to be done
now how do we approach that?
How do we talk to people?
Who do we talk to?
You've talked about even yourchallenges with generational
differences, and that may not betoo dissimilar in a Caucasian
(23:02):
business or Pākehā business, theolder person might just go, Oh,
that's the way we've always doneit.
It's fine type of thing.
Hema (23:10):
Interesting.
This is interesting that I'venoticed is Indians who work for
businesses that are owned byBritish or Kiwi or somebody
who's not an Indian businessowner as an employee.
they're quite happy to followwhatever is the health and
(23:31):
safety expectation.
But when they run a business, asmall to medium business like
that, somehow it's the samecountry, the same law, similar
hazards, similar risks, but theyseem to not want to have the
same rules.
that is applicable to them inthe business that they run,
(23:53):
which I find quite interesting.
And to give you another example,we did some furniture in the
house like a few weeks ago, andthis guy who came to do the
furniture has a full time jobworking for a small to medium
Some kind of a wood makingcompany and he did this
wardrobes for us.
So he would cut the wardrobes inthe in the factory and then come
(24:16):
home and install it in ourhouse.
And I saw that many, but when hewould come to install, he would
have to do like littlemeasurements because my house is
an 100 year old house anddoesn't have right angles at
all.
He would come in with themeasurement and then he would
have to come and then trim alittle bit and things like that.
And then I noticed that hewasn't using any of his PPE at
all.
So I went to him and I said tohim, how do you work like this
(24:39):
with no safety shoes and you arenot wearing your earplugs when
you're using your saw and thingslike that?
He says, oh, yeah, I should havedone, right?
I said in your off, in yourwork, do you get away?
He says, oh my God, in my work,I can't even walk.
10 steps in the factory withoutall of these things, the
supervisor will immediatelycatch.
And I said, so because there isno supervisor, you're not doing
(25:01):
it here.
He says, oh, madam sorry, Ishould have done it.
I should have done it.
But it is, it's, you see thedifference in how it is.
It's because it's mandated.
They will, there is awillingness to do it.
But here, because it's a home,they don't want to do it.
And I said to him, Your risk isthe same.
You're still going to get deaf,whether you are working there or
(25:21):
you're working here, or you willstill cut your finger if you're
not going to wear the rightgloves and all.
He says no, I agree, but Ishould have done it.
But it's, I think it's just theyapproach it quite differently
when they do it as an employeeand then versus when they run
their own business.
And I have never understood.
What is different in that andpossibly maybe another few years
(25:43):
of study of trying to understandpeople's mind about and asking
them question as to if you arehappy to wear your PPE there,
why are you not wearing PPE herewhen you're doing the same job?
Greg (25:54):
Do you think understanding of we don't talk about
legislation necessarily, but thestandards expected.
Is it understanding, as you say,the difference between an
employee, when you're anemployee, you're told to do ABC,
rightly or wrongly.
But now I'm a business ownerover here and actually, I don't
understand.
I'm not sure if that would bethe situation.
(26:15):
The different cultural scenariosabout around health and safety
and workplaces and translatethat from an Indian business in
India to an Indian businesshere.
Hema (26:26):
possibly very likely.
But like I said, I have no, Ihaven't even had that
conversation with anyone to evensay that.
Anecdotally, this is what Ithink.
But I found that veryfascinating and I thought I
should try and experiment andtry and see if this happens more
often.
So I should go into Indianbusinesses and see what they do
about safety versus what theywould do if it was if they were
(26:51):
employed somewhere.
Like I, because I'm in precinctand I, we have lots of
construction and fit outactivities and I go to inspect
them.
There are lots of Indiansubcontractors that work for
large Kiwi owned companies and Isee them all properly kitted out
and everything is correctly doneand I wonder every now and then
I should get that gentleman tocome and do some work in my
(27:12):
house, just cook up a job sothat he can come and then I want
to see how he does that job.
And then if it is everythingremains the same then and I'm
like, great he understands whyhe has to do these things.
But if he doesn't, then I haveto ask him, why my brother, why?
Greg (27:29):
I mean, is there a context thing there in terms of how
Indian people like to becommunicated with?
Are they a sort of culture thatneeds lots of detail as to why
we're doing something, or arethey more casual and just we'll
go with the flow?
Do we have a, what is expectedthere a difference there?
Hema (27:49):
Like most people, we all like to be told why we have to
do something, and I think thatremains the same everywhere.
But I think with the mostIndians And I, the word I'm
going to use now will befamiliar to people who are
coming from see the northernpart of India from Mumbai
upwards.
So we have something calledJugaad.
(28:11):
Jugaad is like the Kiwi numbereight wire.
It's like a, ingenious Kiwisolution, finding a workaround,
finding a way to make it happendespite everything, so that is
what we call a Jugaad.
So I think a lot of our mindsetworks with, let's do this with.
(28:34):
Minimum effort, maximum outputand with and so it's everything
is like a Jugaad.
So everything has to be likequickly done and you get paid
and you move on to the next onekind of things.
And I'm sure culturally thosekind of things exist in every
culture.
Every culture will have a wordthat describes Jugaad for them.
(28:56):
And I think and even the number8 wire that we talk about in
Kiwi context, and that is whereit is.
It is we have to have that thingdone.
So I just did it this way.
And if it works, we say, wow,great innovation.
If it doesn't, we say, did notfollow the JSA, I think it is
very interpretive of that.
So I had, I don't have an answeras to why people would do that,
(29:18):
but I think a lot of it is ourmindset that we want to be here,
get the job done, move on to thenext one, because ultimately we
want to pay our rent and we wantto pay the mortgage and, like
the usual human motivations thatpeople have.
Greg (29:34):
I was going to say, I think that the number eight
wire, I think we think in NewZealand that we're special and
that we're the only country inthe world or the only culture
that has that approach tothings.
But actually, I think, as yousay, I think everybody has a
word or a phrase that reflectsthe same the same thing.
So I don't think it's any,anything special.
So sorry, you were going to saysomething.
Hema (29:53):
No, I was just going to say that apart from the fact
that, we we want to get thingsdone.
I, yeah.
People don't really think abouthealth and safety.
It has taken almost, what now,15 years that I've, 15, 17 years
that I've been doing health andsafety that people still
question.
I think for the better part ofmy earlier days, people thought
(30:16):
I just did fire evacuationdrills and first aid course and
things like that in terms ofsafety.
That's what people think.
So when I say I'm studying humanfactors and ergonomics, people
say, how much ergonomics can youdo?
Why is there like a whole courseon ergonomics?
Because they think of economicsas workstation set up and so
(30:36):
yeah, I think that understandingand that knowledge is not there
as to how scientific andprofessional this whole space
is, part of the education.
I think of not just the Indians.
I think.
People generally.
Greg (30:52):
Yeah, so as we wrap up, I don't know if you've had a
chance to multitask and thinkabout our conversation earlier,
but Kiwi health and safetyperson, not Indian, going into a
an Indian workplace, how am Igoing to deal with it?
How am I going to, who am Igoing to talk to?
How am I going to talk to them?
(31:12):
What are a couple of tips thatyou've got for us?
Hema (31:15):
There might be some if there are any Indians listening
to this podcast, they maydisagree with me on this small
point, but I think Indians byand large, at least of my, the
last would be my generation, Ithink have a little bit of the
colonial hangover.
Where we think that the whiteman has all the answer and that
anything that the white man saysis worth listening to.
(31:39):
The younger kids whether it isin India or whether here it is,
they have no such they have nosuch issues.
They're all like untothemselves, they're law unto
themselves and they'll do whatis right by them.
While Kiwi can, Kiwi or a SouthAfrican or, British, whoever,
white person gets into anyIndian owned or any ethnic owned
business and they will tellthem, you must do this way.
(32:02):
They will all say, yes sir.
But I don't think that therewill be a total buy in because
there should be the time to betold something, to process that
in your head, then to see howthat impacts your business, what
it does to your bottom line,what it does to your time, to
your staff, and all of thattakes Some time and most people
(32:27):
don't sit down one day and say,I'm not going to think about
anything else.
I'm going to think about whatthat person told me and I'm
going to try and work out themath.
They don't do it like that.
It takes time to sit inside, tobe in their mind and it festers
away and it slowly comes out ofthe other side, either a yay or
a nay.
And I think that.
(32:47):
is what is important.
And most Kiwis when they are inposition of power, I think they
understand that they need to bethey need to they need to be
polite and all.
So Kiwis are amazingly polite.
It took me a few years aftercoming here to understand that
some of the sarcasm that comesout of Kiwi is actually like a
(33:11):
way of telling us off for notdoing something right.
And I just thought it was beingfunny, but it took me some time,
but so Kiwis are exceedinglypolite.
And I sometimes wonder whethersomething gets lost in
translation when Kiwis in theirvery polite manner say, Polite
is not necessarily culturallyintelligent.
How many people make the effortto understand why somebody grows
(33:32):
a beard?
Why is it important for thatperson to have the beard?
What will it mean to the personto not have the beard?
I don't think we ask thosequestions and we need to ask
those questions.
If we perceive That people arehaving barriers to convert to
what we want them to, then wegot to ask them why the barrier
(33:55):
and how is that barrier?
Is it even a barrier from theirperspective?
I don't think we asked thatquestion.
And that is where thosequestions that we ask, the
curious questions that we askare very important.
And when you get those answers.
To not be like, Oh my God howcan you even do that?
Don't do that.
(34:16):
Just accept it.
Because I just found out myhusband went to base camp to
Everest base camp.
And he said that in Tibet insome of these monks are trained
in chopping up human bodiesbecause they don't have any way
to get rid of a corpse.
So they chop them up and putthem in the river for the river,
(34:37):
the fish to feed.
And that's why Tibetan monks wholive in that area don't eat fish
at all, because it's like eatingyour ancestors.
So when I heard this, I wasabsolutely aghast and I went
back and I started doing somereading to try and understand
this whole context.
But a couple of people that Itold the story to, they were
like, Oh my God, I can't thinkof it.
Oh, shit.
(34:57):
That is terrible.
Like, why is it terrible?
We, you living here in NewZealand or in India with lots of
land and perfect temperateclimate, you have so many
options to do what you want todo with human remains, but they
don't.
And this is the best way in anenvironmentally sustainable way
that they do it.
So I think that judgmentalreaction, I think if we can have
(35:21):
some control over it it willhelp in getting our foot in the
minds of people that we want tochange.
Greg (35:32):
Fascinating.
And there's so many of thosetypes of examples that we hear
about and we make judgments on,isn't there, whether it's
treatment of women in the MiddleEast or our view of treatment of
women in the Middle East to yourtype of example.
There's a great examplehappening in the US now with a
certain president and and someof the things that, that are
(35:53):
coming out of there that arecreating lots of controversy.
And so that curiosity piece, Ithink is really fascinating.
Yes, we're starting to see thosesorts of conversations being had
in the safety space.
Absolutely.
But I don't think it's enough,and it's the questions that you
(36:13):
pose, tell us about the, theculture and how does that link
to, how you present yourself andthe clothing you wear and
various other things.
And I think sometimes I've hadthis conversation with with a
couple of people from a Maoriperspective, I think there's a
there's a fear that if we askthose questions, we might get
called out as a racist and butactually it's nothing to do with
(36:35):
that, and people are happy totalk about their culture, so
long as I guess the questionsasked in an appropriate way and
just, you've talked about somany things that I think will
will be some great analysis,generational differences.
I don't think there'sgenerational differences, sorry,
I don't think the generationaldifferences are necessarily any
(36:57):
different between Pākehā andIndian and American, the older
generation are going to have aparticular view and the younger
generation are going to havethat, that different view.
The concept of time, and I'vetalked about this publicly in
various forums, the word time isapparently the most popular noun
in the English language.
(37:18):
And so we're always late we'realways going to be somewhere on
time.
The meeting starts at this time.
It finishes at that.
So I haven't got enough time,whereas many other cultures
don't see that and the curiositything.
It's just been it's been afabulous discussion.
The, is it do God
Hema (37:36):
do God?
Yes, that day.
You J.
A.
D.
do God.
Greg (37:42):
Okay.
Nice.
I'll have to do some research onthat and and and so if I can
find my local sort of Indianneighbor, and if I went and
asked them what that would mean,they might know what it is,
depending on where they comefrom.
Yeah,
Hema (37:54):
they come from, because again, because India is so vast,
you will have a similar word forit in the southern parts of
India and the eastern parts ofIndia, but it's the number
eight, wire ten, the mentality.
That's what it is.
Greg (38:07):
Yeah, no, wonderful.
Hey, Hema, it's been a greatconversation.
And I'm looking forward to goingthrough and listening to this
and and preparing it forrelease.
Thanks so much for your time.
Thank you.
Been lovely to catch up again.
And yeah, just appreciateappreciate the conversation.
Hema (38:24):
Thank you very much, Greg.
Now I can tick off being apodcaster on my, from my list.
All right.
Thank you, Greg.
Have a good one.
See ya.
You
Greg (38:35):
It's been an insightful conversation with Hema Puthran.
We explored the deep connectionbetween cultural intelligence,
workplace safety, and the humanside of leadership.
My key takeaways from ourconversation?
Hema explored theintersectionality of CQ and
safety by highlighting howadapting to different cultural
(38:57):
contexts is crucial in aworkplace safety setting.
Understanding where people arecoming from, both culturally.
and professionally makes safetyinitiatives more effective and
sustainable.
Hema's background in social workhas shaped her approach to
(39:18):
health and safety.
Just like in social work wherepractitioners must meet people
where they are, safetyprofessionals must also tailor
their communications andstrategies to resonate with
workers lived experience.
Through storytelling, Hemaillustrated the importance of
patience, perseverance, andtrust in getting people to buy
(39:42):
into safety messages.
Rather than imposing rules,successful safety professionals
engage in ongoing conversationsand understand the why behind
people's behaviors.
Navigating cultural barriers insafety practice was an area for
discussion, and there was animpactful case of a Sikh
(40:03):
worker's decision to shave hisbeard for respiratory health.
This decision, driven by opendialogue and personal
reflection, underscores the needto balance cultural traditions
with workplace safetyrequirements.
We explored the generational andcultural divide in business
(40:23):
safety practices, and Hemashared insights.
into how health and safety areperceived differently by Indian
employees versus Indian businessowners in New Zealand.
The difference in compliancebetween working for a company
and running one is a fascinatingcultural and behavioral study.
(40:46):
So we've got some lessons forsafety professionals in
multicultural workplaces.
First, approach those culturalconversations with curiosity,
not judgment.
Second, understand how powerdynamics affect communication
and change.
Be patient.
Change happens one conversationat a time.
(41:10):
And recognize That emotionalintelligence and cultural
intelligence must work togetherto create lasting safety
improvements.
This discussion has been apowerful reminder that health
and safety is about more thanpolicies.
It's about people.
If you enjoyed this episode, Besure to subscribe and follow the
(41:32):
podcast for more thoughtprovoking discussions.
Let's keep the conversationgoing.
Have you encountered culturalchallenges in workplace safety?
How did you manage them?
How did you navigate them?
Drop a comment in or send me amessage.
I'd love to hear yourexperiences.
so we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
(41:55):
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
(42:18):
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa
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