March 31, 2025 • 45 mins
What a conversation, huge thanks again to Jodhi Warwick-Ponga for joining us, and for bringing such grounded, powerful insights into the space.
There are a few key takeaways I want to highlight.
First — that idea of diversity as a dynamic resource. Jodhi reminded us that every person brings something unique to the table, and when we embrace that, we open the door to creativity, innovation, and more effective decision-making.
Second — we talked a lot about intellectual honesty. It’s not just about making space for people to feel safe speaking up, but also creating the expectation that it’s okay to disagree and challenge ideas constructively. That’s where real growth happens.
Third — reflection. And not just ticking the CPD box, but truly reflecting on our own beliefs, biases, and blind spots. If we want to develop cultural intelligence, we have to start with understanding ourselves.
And finally — time. Jodhi raised an important point that being culturally intelligent takes time. Time to build trust. Time to connect. Time to be present. And sometimes that’s the biggest challenge of all in leadership.
So wherever you’re at in your journey, I hope there’s something in this episode that’s sparked a bit of thought or reflection for you. If you want to keep the conversation going, you can always find me on LinkedIn. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already, and keep an eye out for the next episode.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world Hey team, youasked for it and we delivered.
Friend of the show, back for athird time on the Culturally
Intelligent Safety Professionalpodcast to share some stories
about what she's been up tosince we spoke only a few weeks
ago.
(01:25):
Jodie Warwick-Ponga, we're gonnahave to stop meeting like this,
welcome to the show again what'sbeen happening?
Jodhi (01:33):
Oh gosh, that's a really good question.
What's been happening?
A lot.
And a lot, last, podcast, wespoke about the introduction of
a new self-assessment.
Since we also, met, we'vecontinued to, to grow and to
understand things.
I know here within TRMA, we'realso expanding and looking,
participating in a discoveryproject at the moment to build a
(01:56):
strategic plan for TRMA as awhole, so that hopefully we will
progress.
And do some great things in thefuture, so it's just really
understanding the needs of, ofour communities and then putting
it into a strategic plan.
So that's where we're at.
We're at the moment.
Greg (02:12):
I know many have probably, heard, heard you before and know
who you are, but for those thatmaybe haven't, do you want to,
just, do a brief, pepeha and,introduce yourself to the
audience?
Jodhi (02:22):
Sure.
I thought I might skip and justtalk a little bit about the
multiple iwi that I whakapapato, or that I, have ancestral
links to.
So, I whakapapa to NgātiKahungunu ki Wairarapa, which is
the general pepehā that I share,but I also am connected to Te
Atiawa via my Taranaki line, andalso my Wellington line, or my
(02:44):
Pōneke line, and also my SouthIsland line.
So, I am Ngāti Kahungunu kiWairarapa.
Rawako Raukawa, Te Atiawa, NgatiMutunga, Ngāi Tahu.
Oh, and I think that's about it.
But I'd be really remiss if Ialso didn't acknowledge that was
my mother's side.
(03:04):
So my mother is Māori and myfather is, was actually born in
Wales.
So he was born in Wales andmoved to New Zealand in 1966.
With my, my brother and mysister, my older brother and my
sister and his first wife aswell.
And then, he met my mother alittle bit later after, he
separated and divorced from, hisfirst wife.
(03:26):
And...
We like to say that he married aNgāti Kahungunu queen, the queen
of Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa.
So she was very much a queenthrough many, and through,
through her I actually have alot of, whānau, my brothers and
sisters, because she helped toraise about 30 to 40 of my
cousins as well.
Greg (03:46):
As you do, as you do.
Yeah.
Nice.
Hey, so that's really cool tolearn, learn that stuff.
Today we're going to go deep andwe're going to talk about
diversity as a dynamic resource.
So Jodhi, what does that mean?
Jodhi (04:03):
You know what, I'm going to say what I said before, it
was at a time when we werediscussing like, hey, let's do a
podcast.
And then I thought, man, thiswill be a really cool topic
because I was really learning alot about like diversity and the
importance of having diversethought and workplaces, and then
leadership and governance boardsand what have you.
(04:26):
In a nutshell, every singleperson brings their own
uniqueness to who they are andwhere they come from.
And they need to, we need toconsider each person as an
individual resource.
And by bringing thoseuniqueness, that diversity into
the workplace, it's dynamicbecause it's ever changing and
(04:48):
ever moving.
And we need to treat that as.
I think that things that aredynamic and ever-changing are
innovative, creative, and theyhelp us to move away from a very
homogenous way of thinking.
But then it's through movingaway from that singular way of
(05:09):
thinking, we do become morecreative, we do introduce new
ways of doing things, new waysof working, and therefore, it's
a resource that can help us tobe more productive and to grow.
And to improve.
So I think that's where I wascoming from when I, when I said,
Hey, let's talk about this forthe next podcast.
Greg (05:30):
Does that mean that it's sort of, we're really trying to
push common sense off a cliff?
And, and, and stop peoplereferring to just use your
common sense, because what'scommon to you is not necessarily
going to be common to me, and,and I think, you know, I think
(05:50):
we've been talking about thatfor a while, or many people in
the safety world have beentalking about common sense not
being a, not being really athing.
It's, although commonunderstanding.
It could be a thing, right?
Everybody having a commonunderstanding of everything from
organisational culture throughto the individual cultures that
(06:12):
exist within that organisation.
Whether it be ethnicity, whetherit be neurodiversity, whether it
be gender, religion politicalviews, sexual orientation,
whatever, and so, just, just,yeah, I guess seeing all of
those different diversities as,as something that is dynamic and
(06:35):
something that, we need to becurious about so we create that
common understanding.
Jodhi (06:41):
Yeah, and, you know, right now the economy is quite
challenging for us here in NewZealand, especially within the
construction infrastructure andsome of those other, trades and
industries.
It's challenging at the momentand we've been really lucky for
things to be quite You know,when the economy is flush,
(07:04):
decision making is pretty easy.
But when the economy is gettinga little tight, we have to make
some choices that are quiteprudent.
And with that prudence alsobecomes innovative and creative
use of the resources that wehave.
So how this, how this diversityand bringing your authentic self
to the workplace.
(07:24):
Those are dynamic resources,which we can do things that we
have never done before, whichcan increase our productivity,
which can ensure that we aremore sustainable.
So that's why I really love theidea of having diversity and
diverse thought, in anyworkplace, because it helps us
make more informed decisions andbetter decisions.
Greg (07:47):
And.
So one of the things, you know,I listed off a bunch of things
around diversity and they're thenormal things that we think
about the, gender, the age, the,you know, neurodiversity, all of
those things that we sort ofgenerally understand to come
under that banner.
And one thing that we also usealongside that term diversity is
(08:08):
diversity of thought, butdiversity of thought is never
lumped in with all of thoseother forms of diversity.
And do you think that there's aplace for that?
Do you think that diversity ofthought needs to be incorporated
into the way that we think aboutdiversity?
You know, one of the whatevernumber, you know, six or seven
diversities that we typicallythink about, should it be a
(08:30):
normal part of thatconversation?
Jodhi (08:34):
Yes, you know, sometimes when we hire and in the
recruitment process, we oftendon't consider diversity of
thought.
People who, I know that when Iwas like hired in the past, and
this was quite a while ago,we're looking for people who
just fit into the team.
That'd be a good fit for ourculture, because they matched
(08:57):
our culture, they had the samevalues, they had very similar
values, very similar beliefs.
And they wouldn't cause too muchof a ripple.
But since that time, I've beenreally encouraging myself and
those who I have influence over,as to really look at not hiring
(09:21):
people who exactly think like usand have the same beliefs and
the same values.
We need more people around us toactually have different ways of
thinking, different ways ofbehaving, and it's still okay.
It does what we do need though.
Is in order for this diversityto work, we can all bring to us
(09:45):
our authentic self to work, beit gender, age, neurodiversity,
diversity of thought, differentcultures.
But what we need in order forthis to work though, is that
there is a common, shared goalor objective that we want to
achieve.
Some of the ways in whichorganizations actually don't do
well when they have diversethoughts, is that there is a
(10:07):
common, shared goal or objectivethat we want to achieve.
And that extreme diversity isthat those extreme diversities
have not got something wherethey, where they actually want
to achieve something.
And so it's all these differentpeople achieving, wanting to do
different goals.
You're not going to achieveanything by that.
So yes, definitely bring diversethoughts, diverse ways of
(10:27):
working, but also ensure thatwhen you, you work with people
that there is a known objectivethat you all want to achieve.
Greg (10:38):
And moving on from that, once you've done that.
There's an interesting conceptthat's come out of the research
into cultural intelligence, andit says that actually
psychological safety can, can bechallenged if you haven't got
intellectual honesty, whatthey've called intellectual
honesty.
(10:58):
So you've got psychologicalsafety where people can, you
know, express their feelingswithout being felt what they're
going to be humiliated orpunished or whatever and it
encourages open communicationand risk-taking.
But what you also need is asituation where you've got what
they call intellectual honestywhich is about people being able
(11:21):
to express their differentideas.
And constructively challengeeach other, without fearing for
their psychological safety.
So actually having the, anenvironment where it's okay to
disagree, and have a challengingconversation about whatever it
might be.
Jodhi (11:40):
I know in the last podcast we spoke about the marae
ātea, that space in between,where visitors are welcomed on
and then going into the wharenui.
That ātea space is, if you thinkabout it there, that is the god
of war, that is the realm wherehe plays.
So, that is the, that is whereall the challenges occur.
(12:02):
That's a, that's aintellectually honest space.
So you'll see in Pōheri, and I'msure you saw it, in, not the
tangihanga for Kingi Tuheitia,but you may have seen it in
other, locations of Pōheri whereyou'll see the, the haukainga or
even the manuhiri, the visitorsand the home people.
They'll bring up things out inthat area, and they'll discuss
(12:25):
it, knowing full well that isthe place for those challenges
to occur.
And then once you move into thewhare nui, that's settled.
So that's a, that's aculturally, sorry, and I guess
you might call that theintellectually honest space,
where there is a parameters,where there is an area for which
(12:46):
it is okay for those things tooccur.
And I think that's one thingthat workplaces don't actually
allow for and we haven'tcreated, is spaces for
intellectual honesty to beallowed to occur and for the
space an expectation that itwill occur in that space.
So I spoke about where we at theMarae for recent team meeting.
(13:12):
There was a training space andthere were times when feedback
was welcome and it was robustfeedback.
It was in that space wherefeedback could be allowed an in
as soon as that time frame andthat, that presentation, that
receiving feedback was finished.
(13:34):
That was the end of it.
But knowing full well, though,that the team had further
opportunities where there wasgoing to be that opportunity to
have robust discussion.
But sometimes we need to set upparameters, set up timeframes,
know that there is a structurefor when we can have
intellectual honesty, and thenpeople have no fear of
retribution, they know that theycan speak freely.
(13:57):
Because it's not always easy forit to be a dynamic space for us
to have intellectual honesty,because sometimes it's not
always time for you to givefeedback.
It may be too late sometimes,but there should always be
opportunity for it to beallowed.
Greg (14:13):
So one of the things we talked about last time, you gave
some, I guess recommendationsabout what people can do to be
more culturally intelligent.
And one of the, one of thepoints you made, was to reflect
on your own personal pastchallenges.
And, and I guess what I'mthinking that means is think
(14:34):
about the cultures, the culturalnorms and values, and this
doesn't have to be aboutethnicity.
It could be about anything,right?
Any, any aspect of diversitythat challenges you.
What do you get frustrated by?
What don't you understand?
You know, I remember one of thethings that, that really
(14:56):
challenged me.
It challenged me many years agowhen I first heard that the
Whanganui River was going to begiven legal recognition similar
to that of a person, and I'mgoing, what's that all about,
you know?
And, and, but, but I get it now,because I had it explained to
(15:16):
me, I had a conversation withsomebody about it, and now we
know that, that there's, there'sthree, taonga, I guess, in New
Zealand that, that have gotthat, that status with the, the
Whanganui River, the Urewera'sis it, and, Taranaki.
And, and I understand it.
And so, if you ask thatreflective question, then some
(15:39):
of those challenging questionsactually go away.
And I guess it's part of, ofdeveloping your cultural
intelligence.
And so, you talked about that,and the other thing...
What we talked about was aboutreflection, and again, you've
got to go through that processof reflection to understand what
(16:03):
you think and, and whatchallenges you.
And one part of culturalintelligence is about strategy,
and strategy's made up of threecomponents, right?
It's, it's, it's about planning,and it's about thinking about
how you're going to engage in anupcoming situation.
That is going to be culturallydiverse.
That planning gives you theability to be adaptable in the
(16:26):
moment, so that you can go intothat situation, and, interact
appropriately with someknowledge.
And then the last piece isabout, reflective practice.
And I think it's something thathealth and safety professionals,
if my observations are correct,really struggle with that,
(16:47):
particularly with their ownprofessional development.
It's one of the hardest piecesthey find because everybody
wants to just go and do a bit ofCPD and have some points scored
for it and not have to worryabout it again.
But actually that doesn't reallycreate a lot of learning.
Maybe that's just...
Reflective practices, which willhelp you understand, whether you
(17:09):
achieved your goals going intothat situation.
Was there anything else youlearnt?
And I shared that story aboutthe koha, right, going into the
marae, I'd been told by acultural advisor that the koha
was to be placed on the floor,but actually, the person that
told me that was from adifferent iwi, and the iwi that
(17:30):
we were at had a differentcultural practice.
And so, It wasn't to be placedon the floor, it had to be
passed hand to hand and, andthere I am freaking out that
I've, I've created some sort of,you know, I've done something
really bad.
Right, yeah.
So, so the reflection piece isreally important.
(17:51):
How, how do you see...
Reflection being built into whatwe do around enhancing our
cultural intelligence,particularly as it relates to
Māori culture.
How can people do that, so thatthey continually learn?
Jodhi (18:07):
One thing about reflection is, and I spoke, I
had a, I was catching up withsome interns yesterday, from an
organisation.
And I shared with them aboutour, our latest, self-reflective
tool.
And I shared with them too thatself-reflection is really
important for us to do, but whenwe're unfamiliar and we're doing
(18:29):
a reflection, and it challengeswho we are and how we behave.
It's important that you have amentor or someone who you can
talk to when you're self-reflecting because self
-reflecting can be quiteconfronting.
And it can, you can kind of beatyourself up a little bit when
(18:51):
you're doing self-reflection.
So what I suggested to theseinterns was when you're
participating or you're, you'reactually filling this self
-reflective, pool to make surethat you have someone to talk to
about this.
Like you, you spoke to me aboutlike, oh, I, I jumped back and,
and then I shared, oh, we wouldhave all been, if it was us as
(19:13):
the Haukanga, we would have hada little giggle in the
background about it.
And it's not that we're laughingat you, it will, because we, we
may have seen that before.
But unless you have someone tobounce back and say, hey, okay,
those things happen.
You could end up in a downwardspiral and then kind of give up,
and that's not what we, we wantyou to do.
(19:35):
We don't want you to give up.
Know that and normalize.
It's okay to, those little fauxpas happen.
Those little things that wedidn't know.
You don't have to knoweverything about a culture to,
to learn about it, but in thatself-reflective process, make
sure that you first know thatthere's a soft place to fall,
(20:00):
know that there's someone whoyou can talk to to talk those
things out because you can't gothrough this alone.
It's quite confronting andchallenging.
But you do, yeah, I just can'tsay it enough that make sure
that you put yourself into asafe space as well.
and have that soft, soft personto call.
I know I've got someone whocalled me yesterday.
(20:22):
I'm his little, I feel kind ofunusual because I'm like his
cultural mentor.
And I love having calls with himtoo because, because he's always
quite stressed and, and he'slike, Jodhi, I did this and I
don't, and I'm like, did you dothis, this, this, and this?
He goes, yes.
And I went, don't worry aboutit.
It's okay.
This is the impact that youoccurred.
(20:42):
What the impact is not as bad asyou may have thought it was.
That's okay.
But you need a person to, tobounce things off.
I know that I have my owncultural mentor as well.
I have actually a few people whoI, I bounce ideas off and then
who I can actually go, Oh, thisis really dumb.
I feel stupid.
And they'll just kind of help meand give me feedback about how I
(21:04):
can improve the next timearound.
Have the opportunity availableto you.
Greg (21:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
You said something earlier on inthat, about, about you don't
have to know everything about aculture.
Absolutely, and that would beunachievable, right?
You, you, you just, it's notpossible to know every single
thing about every culture,particularly when we start
thinking about, And when takingit away from just ethnicity and
(21:30):
we think about all of thoseother aspects of diversity, and
I, and I guess the challenge isenhancing your cultural
intelligence aimed at thecultures that you most interact
with or are interested in.
And so if you've got a highMāori population, sure, you
might go out and learn as muchas you can about, about Māori
(21:52):
culture or if, if maybe you'redoing a project and I guess one
of my sort of pet areas ofinterest is the whole
neurodiversity thing anddyslexia and understanding how
safety professionals can better,create content and learning
Taking dyslexic people intoconsideration as well as Maori
(22:16):
as well as, you know, Filipinoor, or whatever.
And so one of the things that'scome out of the research around
cultural intelligence is, andthis is going to sound
counterintuitive to what we'retalking about, is that knowing a
lot about cultures can be adangerous thing.
Oh, yes.
And so what it's saying is, ifyou're recruiting, you're
(22:40):
probably better to recruitsomebody who's not highly
culturally intelligent, becausethey're more likely, you would
hope, to be curious andinquisitive.
And want to learn stuff ratherthan the person that claims to
know everything because youdon't really want to employ the
(23:03):
smartest person in the room.
I suspect.
And, and so it is better torecruit somebody who has got
ideas rather than the personthat claims to know everything
because you don't really want toemploy the smartest person in
the room.
The opportunity to learn and,and, you know, got an example
of, that.
We recently, over the lastcouple of years at INSHPO have,
(23:24):
launched, an intern program.
And having gone through therecruitment process now three
times to place interns into thatgovernance environment.
The people that have beensuccessful have been the ones
that have got the most to gain.
It's not about.
What we gain.
(23:45):
Yes, there is an aspect of thatthat we will benefit by having
this resource, but what we'retrying to create is an
environment or a place forsomebody who has got the most to
learn about being in thisenvironment.
So we don't want the personthat's got the.
The most amount of internationalgovernance experience, we want
somebody that aspires to becomemore involved.
(24:08):
And, and so those are the peoplethat have ended up being
successful through therecruitment of the, you know,
the candidates that have got themost gain.
And, and, and so that takes itaway, it might not sound on the
face of it to be a culture,discussion, but it is, because
it's about the, the differentcultures from an education
perspective or a knowledgeperspective of the people that
(24:29):
we're putting into those roles,into an international
organisation which has got adifferent culture to, you know,
in this case a New Zealand, youknow, business.
Jodhi (24:41):
Absolutely.
You touched on, you touched onnot always having the most
knowledgeable person, andthey're not always, probably not
always the most culturallyintelligent person.
There is that balance that theyneed to have, so you need to
have that curiosity.
You need to have...
That, yes, it's great to haveknowledge, but you also need to
(25:03):
have people who can be adaptableand can change to different
situations and interactions.
But also on top of that, youneed people who can actually put
things into play.
And it's the people who can actupon what they know to be
culturally intelligent.
So sometimes the people who aremost knowledgeable, they put
(25:24):
them, they put their ownbarriers in front of them that
prevent the organization and theindividuals and those for the
influence from actuallyprogressing because these start
too many limitations becausethey have such a great
knowledge.
I know I've seen that within myown community.
Spaces that I've worked withinthat we hire the most
knowledgeable.
(25:44):
I'm going to use health andsafety, for example, rather than
a Māori one.
We hire some amazing health andsafety managers or advisors and
their, well their managers, andthey've got so much knowledge
and understanding of legislationand hazards and risks and, and
all of those sort of things.
But then they get into theworkplace and they have no idea
(26:05):
how to motivate individualsaround them.
They...
Are so used to, and because, youknow, health and safety is such,
so broad, they may be hazardoussubstance, super nerds and
completely scholars aroundhazardous substances, but then
they know nothing aboutmachinery, and they're not
curious enough to find out moreabout that.
(26:26):
They rather focus on what their,their strength is.
So, in terms of a health andsafety concept, or within that
context, It's not always theperson who's the most
knowledgeable who's going to getthings done.
It's those who have that four-way, they're, they're
(26:46):
motivated, they know how to,strategically do things, and
then they know how to act onthose things, but they're also
have their own drive
Greg (26:54):
So right at the beginning you talked about aligning, all
of our diverse perspectives withorganizational goals.
One of the things I see withcultural intelligence, and it's
a, I think it's a thing thatMany organizations struggle with
is worker engagement.
(27:16):
And I see cultural intelligence,or enhancing cultural
intelligence, at a team level,at an organizational level, as a
perfect scenario or opportunityto create worker engagement and
(27:37):
participation.
By getting different culturestogether, getting their
perspectives on a policy or aprocedure or a way of doing work
or, or where the Christmas partyis going to be this year.
You know, whatever it might be,I, I just see it as, because I
think we beat ourselves up somuch about this worker
(27:59):
engagement stuff.
And, oh yeah, we've got to havethis many reps and we've got to
have a committee and we've gotto do this.
And maybe that's true and maybeit's not, you know, but I think
one of the things to reallycreate real participation is
leveraging of organisational, orcreating organisational
(28:22):
intelligence by connectingeverybody together at a cultural
level.
And again, I keep saying it'snot just about ethnicities, I'm
not saying let's get the Māoriworker and the Tongan worker and
the Filipino worker together tohave a chat about stuff.
It's, it's, you know, let's,let's have a talk about the,
(28:42):
neurodiversity issues that wehave in the workplace.
You know, are we creating all ofthis paperwork that a percentage
of, of, people don't understand?
Somebody, somebody posed aquestion recently at a
presentation aroundneurodiversity, actually, now
that I've got onto thatbandwagon.
What's an acceptable percentageof workers to not communicate
(29:08):
with effectively in a workplace?
How about that for a question?
Jodhi (29:16):
That is, wow, that's a great question.
And what was the response then?
Greg (29:22):
He wasn't looking for an answer.
It was just, you know, it's sortof like the old question of,
what's an acceptable LTI rate?
You know, it's what's theacceptable number of, of
workers.
That we are prepared to notcommunicate effectively with,
and so you could take that andyou can consider it from a
neurodiverse perspective, youcan consider it from an English
(29:45):
as a second languageperspective, you can consider it
as, from a perspective of you'vegot a bunch of workers who don't
do particularly well at school,
Jodhi (29:51):
See, and I'll probably throw the question back then.
My question will be is what'sthe impact of not engaging with
that percentage of workers?
Correct.
Greg (29:59):
Right?
That's the second question thatcomes out of that.
And I will, I'm going to try it.
You know, the next time I'maround a board table somewhere
talking to an organisation, Imight put that question out
there and I'll be interested inhow that is responded to.
Jodhi (30:19):
See, and I will be a bit cheeky and I'll probably throw
back some statistics.
The, the, if you think about notengaging with Māori, in the
workplace, well, they're 51percent more likely to be harmed
in the workplace.
So the impact is to them asindividuals, them as their
(30:40):
community, the productivity ofthe workplace.
The impact is huge by notengaging with certain, maybe not
percentages, but maybe differentvarious groups of people.
So if you have a, it reallydepends.
That's a such a, a divisivequestion.
(31:00):
It's a great question to throwback at people.
But yeah, it's got me thinkingit about a whole lot of
different other questions.
And that's one thing that'sreally good about having that
opportunity for people when youcreate that intellectual honesty
within your own, workplace.
Thank you.
They can ask questions like thatand then it makes us think
(31:22):
further about what we're doingfor worker engagement.
Are we truly leveraging off bygoing out to these different
various, groups, working groupsand say, Hey, can you please
read this and give me somefeedback?
Because you know, if it's apolicy or procedure and you're
giving it to a group of workers,very few will actually give you
(31:44):
feedback.
I'd like to think that I wouldgive you feedback, but then it
all comes down to what of apriority this has for me.
How much effect does it have onmy or impact does it have on my
everyday working life?
And how I, that's really howmuch it impacts me and if I have
the time to do it.
So what's the use of engaging ifyou haven't provided space for
(32:09):
the engagement to occur?
Greg (32:11):
Into your environment.
You know construction and withthat question in the back of
your mind you know you thinkabout the morning toolbox talk
where there's a supervisorstanding up the front of the
smoko shed or or wherever with a10 page JSEA and going through
it and What percentage of theworkers are you not connecting
(32:35):
with by doing that process?
Talking to them about a bunch ofstuff that is probably
irrelevant.
Or, let's say it's not, not allof it is relevant to them and
most of it probably is notrelevant in that format of, some
10-page document that somebody'syapping at them at the front of
(32:56):
the room.
You know?
And then yeah, then ask thatquestion.
I mean I don't know what theanswer's going to be in terms of
how many people are you notconnecting with, are you not
communicating effectively with.
I would suggest it's a largepercentage of that group of
people that are not engaged, notconnected.
(33:19):
And all at the, all Toolbox.
Meeting format is doing isticking a box somewhere.
Jodhi (33:26):
I'm going to throw a question back at you.
Oh dear.
From from your experience andit's vast and.
I, I, what do you think isstopping us from effective
worker engagement?
Greg (33:43):
I think it's, I think it's a lack of knowledge at an
organisational level of, to bangmy own drum, cultural
intelligence really.
It's a lack of understandingpeople.
And, trying to communicate andconnect with people.
In the way maybe that we wouldprefer to be connected and
(34:08):
engaged with, rather thanthinking about the values and
norms of the people who we arestewards of as, as
organisational owners.
I mean, yes, there's some goodexamples out there of, of good
(34:28):
worker engagement.
I've seen it.
I've heard about it.
And not from managers, you know,but I, I'm not sure that it's
the majority.
I think, I think to get betterworker engagement, we need to
better understand the people,not the process, not the HR
(34:49):
process, not the health andsafety process that we've got to
do it this way.
I mean, I'm an advocate oflearning teams, but, but
learning teams have got to bedone properly in terms of
engaging with the people.
Not.
necessarily following a setprocess.
It's just about having a genuineconversation.
(35:10):
You've probably got to createtrust and inspiration.
A little while ago I was on abit of a bandwagon around the
elimination of Command andControl type approaches and
workplaces and this came allcame out of the book.
It's called Trust and Iinspireby Stephen Covey Junior and
(35:37):
saying that you know the commandand control model does not
create trust and inspiration.
And that's really what you wantto get with your workforce.
Is that they trust that there'stwo way trust actually.
And, probably two-wayinspiration that workers are
inspired by the business and thebusiness is inspired by its
workers.
And if you've got that, then,you know, the pathway to worker
(36:02):
engagement surely has got to bebetter.
Jodhi (36:06):
You know, the, it's really easy for us to come onto
these podcasts and talk aboutthe really great way of
practicing and stuff like that.
And the reason I asked thatquestion was, is that it's a
question I'm often asked, and alot of high expectations are
also placed on me as a healthand safety practitioner, and now
(36:27):
as, like, TRMA, Te Ropu Marutauois growing its reputation and
things like that, still workingwithin the corporate world,
there's a higher expectationplaced on me to actually have
amazing teams, have amazingworker engagement and all of
that.
And whilst I have a lot of thetools and the keys and, and the
(36:47):
knowledge and the understanding,the hardest part that I'm
actually finding is actuallyhaving the time, having the time
to engage.
So one of the greatest barriersthat I find as a leader in
trying to have effective workerengagement is time.
To be culturally intelligent,to...
To connect with people, toensure that we're good stewards
(37:10):
in our leadership positionsrequires a considerable amount
of time, which most people inpositions of leadership, senior
leaders don't actually have.
It's because we, we're stretchedthin.
We do a lot of things within ourown communities as well, which
(37:31):
means that our nine to fivejobs.
I'm often nine to five, or afterfive jobs, actually can be as
late as 2am.
So those early mornings too whenwe're alone and we can actually
do the work that we need to forour communities.
So when I think of what'sstopping us from effective
(37:52):
worker engagement, I say thatthere's not enough time.
Greg (37:55):
And does that come down to different perceptions of time?
Because there's, there's, youknow, there's, there's obviously
different values and normsaround the concept of time.
And there's some older research,and I think I mentioned this in
the, when I presented it atHazans, that time is the most
(38:19):
popular word.
Sorry, the most popular noun inthe English languages.
And the research that foundthat, and the reason I say it's
a little bit older.
Is that it's cited, searches onyahoo.com, and I'm not sure that
anybody's got a Yahoo accountanymore, but, I went and sort of
dug a little bit deeper into itand, and, and did the same sort
(38:41):
of just random search on Googleand, and yeah, time was, time
was right up there.
But if you go to non-Englishspeaking.
"...cultures".
Time is, is not irrelevant butnowhere near as important a
concept as it is in, in Englishspeaking countries.
(39:04):
You know, we're always late,we've gotta be on time, can't be
late, the calendar rules yourlife.
All of those sorts of things.
And yeah, so it's justunderstanding how that works,
you know, across cultures aswell.
Jodhi (39:19):
I had some Pasifika friends and they, what they did
was, so this roopu or thisgroup, they, it was just a
collection of Pasifika peoplefrom various, organizations
coming together and tostrategically plan.
So they were part of largerorganizations, but they were
(39:40):
told to come together andstrategically plan, how they can
move forward and grow awarenessof Pacific needs and peoples.
And what they said was, is thatit was really hard, and they
shared, my friend shared withme, that it was really hard to
bring this concept of comingwith an outcome into a Pacific
(40:01):
realm, because the concepts oftime were that, What will be,
will be.
We will come out with what wecome out with.
We're not going to beconstrained by trying to engage
in this.
But what will be, will be.
So it was understanding thatthis is a time for us to use
this relational space to cometogether, to be one, but don't
(40:26):
worry about the outcome.
So, I learnt from them thatsometimes I had to not always
worry about what the outcome wasgoing to be.
Don't always worry too muchabout everything that's
happening around you, but be inthe space with that individual
or with that group, and just getto be there, be present, and not
(40:52):
always look forward, and like,try to plan everything around
that.
But I, if I was going to givesome like, something back to
leaders, something back toworkers as well, is that now
that, Know that your managersand your senior leaders, their
intent is quite broad and,they've got a lot which they are
(41:14):
managing.
But they always are looking tobe good stewards of the people
whom they have.
They're also looking to bestewards and prudent with the
financial, the finances that thecompany has as well.
But to be patient with them, andwhen I say patience, it's not,
just be, allow them to have thisor just to wait, but be long
(41:40):
allowing in how you do things.
So allow for them to have space,allow for them to have time, but
do come back to them and say tothem, Hey, I'm just checking in,
how are you doing?
Have you made this decision?
And they will engage with you,but sometimes you need to be
motivated and proactive in whatyou need to do.
(42:01):
But be allowing too, that allgood decisions require more
detail, they require diversethought.
But be patient and long-allowingwith your leaders.
Greg (42:15):
Hey, look, I'm going to say that's a great ending to
leave this episode with.
And I know we sort of, we cameinto this just really to have a
chat.
About whatever came up.
And I think we've achieved thatobjective and just talked about
a bunch of stuff.
And, and yeah, I think that's agreat takeaway for people to
(42:39):
consider and reflect on how theymight achieve that in their
workplaces, in their roles andtheir roles as an individual.
Because I want could create apathway for them to be seen as a
leader, through their enhancedunderstanding of, of their own
culture, their own culturalapproach.
(43:00):
Because you can't actually beculturally intelligent until you
understand yourself from thatperspective.
And so yeah, I just just againthanks for your time Jodhi and
look forward to maybe chattingagain soon.
Jodhi (43:18):
Ngā mihi Greg once again for your support and all your
tautoko, take care and be safe.
Greg (43:24):
Alright, team, that brings us to the end of this episode
and what a conversation it'sbeen huge thanks again to Jody
Warwick Ponga for joining us andfor bringing such grounded,
powerful insights into thisspace.
There's a few key takeaways Iwanna leave you with today.
First, that idea of diversity isa dynamic resource jodhi
(43:47):
reminded us that every personbrings something unique to the
table.
And when we embrace that, weopen the door to creativity,
innovation, and more effectivedecision making.
Second, we talked a lot aboutintellectual honesty.
It's not just about making spacefor people to feel safe speaking
(44:09):
up, but also creating theexpectation that it's okay to
disagree and challenge ideasconstructively.
That's where real growthhappens.
Third, it's not just aboutticking the CPD box, but truly
reflecting on our own beliefs,biases, and blind spots.
(44:33):
If we want to develop culturalintelligence, we have to start
with understanding ourselveswhen we reflect and finally
time.
Jodhi raised an important pointthat being culturally
intelligent takes time.
Time to build trust.
Time to connect, time to bepresent, and sometimes that's
(44:56):
the biggest challenge of all inleadership.
So wherever you are at in yourjourney.
I hope there's something in thisepisode that sparked a little
bit of thought or reflection foryou.
I'll drop the transcript intothe show notes and if you wanna
keep the conversation going, youcan always find me on LinkedIn
(45:17):
subscribe to the podcast if youhaven't done so already.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Until then, thanks so much forlistening.
Take care.
Be safe and stay curious, mā tewā.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world Hey team, youasked for it and we delivered.
Friend of the show, back for athird time on the Culturally
Intelligent Safety Professionalpodcast to share some stories
about what she's been up tosince we spoke only a few weeks
ago.
(01:25):
Jodie Warwick-Ponga, we're gonnahave to stop meeting like this,
welcome to the show again what'sbeen happening?
Jodhi (01:33):
Oh gosh, that's a really good question.
What's been happening?
A lot.
And a lot, last, podcast, wespoke about the introduction of
a new self-assessment.
Since we also, met, we'vecontinued to, to grow and to
understand things.
I know here within TRMA, we'realso expanding and looking,
participating in a discoveryproject at the moment to build a
(01:56):
strategic plan for TRMA as awhole, so that hopefully we will
progress.
And do some great things in thefuture, so it's just really
understanding the needs of, ofour communities and then putting
it into a strategic plan.
So that's where we're at.
We're at the moment.
Greg (02:12):
I know many have probably, heard, heard you before and know
who you are, but for those thatmaybe haven't, do you want to,
just, do a brief, pepeha and,introduce yourself to the
audience?
Jodhi (02:22):
Sure.
I thought I might skip and justtalk a little bit about the
multiple iwi that I whakapapato, or that I, have ancestral
links to.
So, I whakapapa to NgātiKahungunu ki Wairarapa, which is
the general pepehā that I share,but I also am connected to Te
Atiawa via my Taranaki line, andalso my Wellington line, or my
(02:44):
Pōneke line, and also my SouthIsland line.
So, I am Ngāti Kahungunu kiWairarapa.
Rawako Raukawa, Te Atiawa, NgatiMutunga, Ngāi Tahu.
Oh, and I think that's about it.
But I'd be really remiss if Ialso didn't acknowledge that was
my mother's side.
(03:04):
So my mother is Māori and myfather is, was actually born in
Wales.
So he was born in Wales andmoved to New Zealand in 1966.
With my, my brother and mysister, my older brother and my
sister and his first wife aswell.
And then, he met my mother alittle bit later after, he
separated and divorced from, hisfirst wife.
(03:26):
And...
We like to say that he married aNgāti Kahungunu queen, the queen
of Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa.
So she was very much a queenthrough many, and through,
through her I actually have alot of, whānau, my brothers and
sisters, because she helped toraise about 30 to 40 of my
cousins as well.
Greg (03:46):
As you do, as you do.
Yeah.
Nice.
Hey, so that's really cool tolearn, learn that stuff.
Today we're going to go deep andwe're going to talk about
diversity as a dynamic resource.
So Jodhi, what does that mean?
Jodhi (04:03):
You know what, I'm going to say what I said before, it
was at a time when we werediscussing like, hey, let's do a
podcast.
And then I thought, man, thiswill be a really cool topic
because I was really learning alot about like diversity and the
importance of having diversethought and workplaces, and then
leadership and governance boardsand what have you.
(04:26):
In a nutshell, every singleperson brings their own
uniqueness to who they are andwhere they come from.
And they need to, we need toconsider each person as an
individual resource.
And by bringing thoseuniqueness, that diversity into
the workplace, it's dynamicbecause it's ever changing and
(04:48):
ever moving.
And we need to treat that as.
I think that things that aredynamic and ever-changing are
innovative, creative, and theyhelp us to move away from a very
homogenous way of thinking.
But then it's through movingaway from that singular way of
(05:09):
thinking, we do become morecreative, we do introduce new
ways of doing things, new waysof working, and therefore, it's
a resource that can help us tobe more productive and to grow.
And to improve.
So I think that's where I wascoming from when I, when I said,
Hey, let's talk about this forthe next podcast.
Greg (05:30):
Does that mean that it's sort of, we're really trying to
push common sense off a cliff?
And, and, and stop peoplereferring to just use your
common sense, because what'scommon to you is not necessarily
going to be common to me, and,and I think, you know, I think
(05:50):
we've been talking about thatfor a while, or many people in
the safety world have beentalking about common sense not
being a, not being really athing.
It's, although commonunderstanding.
It could be a thing, right?
Everybody having a commonunderstanding of everything from
organisational culture throughto the individual cultures that
(06:12):
exist within that organisation.
Whether it be ethnicity, whetherit be neurodiversity, whether it
be gender, religion politicalviews, sexual orientation,
whatever, and so, just, just,yeah, I guess seeing all of
those different diversities as,as something that is dynamic and
(06:35):
something that, we need to becurious about so we create that
common understanding.
Jodhi (06:41):
Yeah, and, you know, right now the economy is quite
challenging for us here in NewZealand, especially within the
construction infrastructure andsome of those other, trades and
industries.
It's challenging at the momentand we've been really lucky for
things to be quite You know,when the economy is flush,
(07:04):
decision making is pretty easy.
But when the economy is gettinga little tight, we have to make
some choices that are quiteprudent.
And with that prudence alsobecomes innovative and creative
use of the resources that wehave.
So how this, how this diversityand bringing your authentic self
to the workplace.
(07:24):
Those are dynamic resources,which we can do things that we
have never done before, whichcan increase our productivity,
which can ensure that we aremore sustainable.
So that's why I really love theidea of having diversity and
diverse thought, in anyworkplace, because it helps us
make more informed decisions andbetter decisions.
Greg (07:47):
And.
So one of the things, you know,I listed off a bunch of things
around diversity and they're thenormal things that we think
about the, gender, the age, the,you know, neurodiversity, all of
those things that we sort ofgenerally understand to come
under that banner.
And one thing that we also usealongside that term diversity is
(08:08):
diversity of thought, butdiversity of thought is never
lumped in with all of thoseother forms of diversity.
And do you think that there's aplace for that?
Do you think that diversity ofthought needs to be incorporated
into the way that we think aboutdiversity?
You know, one of the whatevernumber, you know, six or seven
diversities that we typicallythink about, should it be a
(08:30):
normal part of thatconversation?
Jodhi (08:34):
Yes, you know, sometimes when we hire and in the
recruitment process, we oftendon't consider diversity of
thought.
People who, I know that when Iwas like hired in the past, and
this was quite a while ago,we're looking for people who
just fit into the team.
That'd be a good fit for ourculture, because they matched
(08:57):
our culture, they had the samevalues, they had very similar
values, very similar beliefs.
And they wouldn't cause too muchof a ripple.
But since that time, I've beenreally encouraging myself and
those who I have influence over,as to really look at not hiring
(09:21):
people who exactly think like usand have the same beliefs and
the same values.
We need more people around us toactually have different ways of
thinking, different ways ofbehaving, and it's still okay.
It does what we do need though.
Is in order for this diversityto work, we can all bring to us
(09:45):
our authentic self to work, beit gender, age, neurodiversity,
diversity of thought, differentcultures.
But what we need in order forthis to work though, is that
there is a common, shared goalor objective that we want to
achieve.
Some of the ways in whichorganizations actually don't do
well when they have diversethoughts, is that there is a
(10:07):
common, shared goal or objectivethat we want to achieve.
And that extreme diversity isthat those extreme diversities
have not got something wherethey, where they actually want
to achieve something.
And so it's all these differentpeople achieving, wanting to do
different goals.
You're not going to achieveanything by that.
So yes, definitely bring diversethoughts, diverse ways of
(10:27):
working, but also ensure thatwhen you, you work with people
that there is a known objectivethat you all want to achieve.
Greg (10:38):
And moving on from that, once you've done that.
There's an interesting conceptthat's come out of the research
into cultural intelligence, andit says that actually
psychological safety can, can bechallenged if you haven't got
intellectual honesty, whatthey've called intellectual
honesty.
(10:58):
So you've got psychologicalsafety where people can, you
know, express their feelingswithout being felt what they're
going to be humiliated orpunished or whatever and it
encourages open communicationand risk-taking.
But what you also need is asituation where you've got what
they call intellectual honestywhich is about people being able
(11:21):
to express their differentideas.
And constructively challengeeach other, without fearing for
their psychological safety.
So actually having the, anenvironment where it's okay to
disagree, and have a challengingconversation about whatever it
might be.
Jodhi (11:40):
I know in the last podcast we spoke about the marae
ātea, that space in between,where visitors are welcomed on
and then going into the wharenui.
That ātea space is, if you thinkabout it there, that is the god
of war, that is the realm wherehe plays.
So, that is the, that is whereall the challenges occur.
(12:02):
That's a, that's aintellectually honest space.
So you'll see in Pōheri, and I'msure you saw it, in, not the
tangihanga for Kingi Tuheitia,but you may have seen it in
other, locations of Pōheri whereyou'll see the, the haukainga or
even the manuhiri, the visitorsand the home people.
They'll bring up things out inthat area, and they'll discuss
(12:25):
it, knowing full well that isthe place for those challenges
to occur.
And then once you move into thewhare nui, that's settled.
So that's a, that's aculturally, sorry, and I guess
you might call that theintellectually honest space,
where there is a parameters,where there is an area for which
(12:46):
it is okay for those things tooccur.
And I think that's one thingthat workplaces don't actually
allow for and we haven'tcreated, is spaces for
intellectual honesty to beallowed to occur and for the
space an expectation that itwill occur in that space.
So I spoke about where we at theMarae for recent team meeting.
(13:12):
There was a training space andthere were times when feedback
was welcome and it was robustfeedback.
It was in that space wherefeedback could be allowed an in
as soon as that time frame andthat, that presentation, that
receiving feedback was finished.
(13:34):
That was the end of it.
But knowing full well, though,that the team had further
opportunities where there wasgoing to be that opportunity to
have robust discussion.
But sometimes we need to set upparameters, set up timeframes,
know that there is a structurefor when we can have
intellectual honesty, and thenpeople have no fear of
retribution, they know that theycan speak freely.
(13:57):
Because it's not always easy forit to be a dynamic space for us
to have intellectual honesty,because sometimes it's not
always time for you to givefeedback.
It may be too late sometimes,but there should always be
opportunity for it to beallowed.
Greg (14:13):
So one of the things we talked about last time, you gave
some, I guess recommendationsabout what people can do to be
more culturally intelligent.
And one of the, one of thepoints you made, was to reflect
on your own personal pastchallenges.
And, and I guess what I'mthinking that means is think
(14:34):
about the cultures, the culturalnorms and values, and this
doesn't have to be aboutethnicity.
It could be about anything,right?
Any, any aspect of diversitythat challenges you.
What do you get frustrated by?
What don't you understand?
You know, I remember one of thethings that, that really
(14:56):
challenged me.
It challenged me many years agowhen I first heard that the
Whanganui River was going to begiven legal recognition similar
to that of a person, and I'mgoing, what's that all about,
you know?
And, and, but, but I get it now,because I had it explained to
(15:16):
me, I had a conversation withsomebody about it, and now we
know that, that there's, there'sthree, taonga, I guess, in New
Zealand that, that have gotthat, that status with the, the
Whanganui River, the Urewera'sis it, and, Taranaki.
And, and I understand it.
And so, if you ask thatreflective question, then some
(15:39):
of those challenging questionsactually go away.
And I guess it's part of, ofdeveloping your cultural
intelligence.
And so, you talked about that,and the other thing...
What we talked about was aboutreflection, and again, you've
got to go through that processof reflection to understand what
(16:03):
you think and, and whatchallenges you.
And one part of culturalintelligence is about strategy,
and strategy's made up of threecomponents, right?
It's, it's, it's about planning,and it's about thinking about
how you're going to engage in anupcoming situation.
That is going to be culturallydiverse.
That planning gives you theability to be adaptable in the
(16:26):
moment, so that you can go intothat situation, and, interact
appropriately with someknowledge.
And then the last piece isabout, reflective practice.
And I think it's something thathealth and safety professionals,
if my observations are correct,really struggle with that,
(16:47):
particularly with their ownprofessional development.
It's one of the hardest piecesthey find because everybody
wants to just go and do a bit ofCPD and have some points scored
for it and not have to worryabout it again.
But actually that doesn't reallycreate a lot of learning.
Maybe that's just...
Reflective practices, which willhelp you understand, whether you
(17:09):
achieved your goals going intothat situation.
Was there anything else youlearnt?
And I shared that story aboutthe koha, right, going into the
marae, I'd been told by acultural advisor that the koha
was to be placed on the floor,but actually, the person that
told me that was from adifferent iwi, and the iwi that
(17:30):
we were at had a differentcultural practice.
And so, It wasn't to be placedon the floor, it had to be
passed hand to hand and, andthere I am freaking out that
I've, I've created some sort of,you know, I've done something
really bad.
Right, yeah.
So, so the reflection piece isreally important.
(17:51):
How, how do you see...
Reflection being built into whatwe do around enhancing our
cultural intelligence,particularly as it relates to
Māori culture.
How can people do that, so thatthey continually learn?
Jodhi (18:07):
One thing about reflection is, and I spoke, I
had a, I was catching up withsome interns yesterday, from an
organisation.
And I shared with them aboutour, our latest, self-reflective
tool.
And I shared with them too thatself-reflection is really
important for us to do, but whenwe're unfamiliar and we're doing
(18:29):
a reflection, and it challengeswho we are and how we behave.
It's important that you have amentor or someone who you can
talk to when you're self-reflecting because self
-reflecting can be quiteconfronting.
And it can, you can kind of beatyourself up a little bit when
(18:51):
you're doing self-reflection.
So what I suggested to theseinterns was when you're
participating or you're, you'reactually filling this self
-reflective, pool to make surethat you have someone to talk to
about this.
Like you, you spoke to me aboutlike, oh, I, I jumped back and,
and then I shared, oh, we wouldhave all been, if it was us as
(19:13):
the Haukanga, we would have hada little giggle in the
background about it.
And it's not that we're laughingat you, it will, because we, we
may have seen that before.
But unless you have someone tobounce back and say, hey, okay,
those things happen.
You could end up in a downwardspiral and then kind of give up,
and that's not what we, we wantyou to do.
(19:35):
We don't want you to give up.
Know that and normalize.
It's okay to, those little fauxpas happen.
Those little things that wedidn't know.
You don't have to knoweverything about a culture to,
to learn about it, but in thatself-reflective process, make
sure that you first know thatthere's a soft place to fall,
(20:00):
know that there's someone whoyou can talk to to talk those
things out because you can't gothrough this alone.
It's quite confronting andchallenging.
But you do, yeah, I just can'tsay it enough that make sure
that you put yourself into asafe space as well.
and have that soft, soft personto call.
I know I've got someone whocalled me yesterday.
(20:22):
I'm his little, I feel kind ofunusual because I'm like his
cultural mentor.
And I love having calls with himtoo because, because he's always
quite stressed and, and he'slike, Jodhi, I did this and I
don't, and I'm like, did you dothis, this, this, and this?
He goes, yes.
And I went, don't worry aboutit.
It's okay.
This is the impact that youoccurred.
(20:42):
What the impact is not as bad asyou may have thought it was.
That's okay.
But you need a person to, tobounce things off.
I know that I have my owncultural mentor as well.
I have actually a few people whoI, I bounce ideas off and then
who I can actually go, Oh, thisis really dumb.
I feel stupid.
And they'll just kind of help meand give me feedback about how I
(21:04):
can improve the next timearound.
Have the opportunity availableto you.
Greg (21:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
You said something earlier on inthat, about, about you don't
have to know everything about aculture.
Absolutely, and that would beunachievable, right?
You, you, you just, it's notpossible to know every single
thing about every culture,particularly when we start
thinking about, And when takingit away from just ethnicity and
(21:30):
we think about all of thoseother aspects of diversity, and
I, and I guess the challenge isenhancing your cultural
intelligence aimed at thecultures that you most interact
with or are interested in.
And so if you've got a highMāori population, sure, you
might go out and learn as muchas you can about, about Māori
(21:52):
culture or if, if maybe you'redoing a project and I guess one
of my sort of pet areas ofinterest is the whole
neurodiversity thing anddyslexia and understanding how
safety professionals can better,create content and learning
Taking dyslexic people intoconsideration as well as Maori
(22:16):
as well as, you know, Filipinoor, or whatever.
And so one of the things that'scome out of the research around
cultural intelligence is, andthis is going to sound
counterintuitive to what we'retalking about, is that knowing a
lot about cultures can be adangerous thing.
Oh, yes.
And so what it's saying is, ifyou're recruiting, you're
(22:40):
probably better to recruitsomebody who's not highly
culturally intelligent, becausethey're more likely, you would
hope, to be curious andinquisitive.
And want to learn stuff ratherthan the person that claims to
know everything because youdon't really want to employ the
(23:03):
smartest person in the room.
I suspect.
And, and so it is better torecruit somebody who has got
ideas rather than the personthat claims to know everything
because you don't really want toemploy the smartest person in
the room.
The opportunity to learn and,and, you know, got an example
of, that.
We recently, over the lastcouple of years at INSHPO have,
(23:24):
launched, an intern program.
And having gone through therecruitment process now three
times to place interns into thatgovernance environment.
The people that have beensuccessful have been the ones
that have got the most to gain.
It's not about.
What we gain.
(23:45):
Yes, there is an aspect of thatthat we will benefit by having
this resource, but what we'retrying to create is an
environment or a place forsomebody who has got the most to
learn about being in thisenvironment.
So we don't want the personthat's got the.
The most amount of internationalgovernance experience, we want
somebody that aspires to becomemore involved.
(24:08):
And, and so those are the peoplethat have ended up being
successful through therecruitment of the, you know,
the candidates that have got themost gain.
And, and, and so that takes itaway, it might not sound on the
face of it to be a culture,discussion, but it is, because
it's about the, the differentcultures from an education
perspective or a knowledgeperspective of the people that
(24:29):
we're putting into those roles,into an international
organisation which has got adifferent culture to, you know,
in this case a New Zealand, youknow, business.
Jodhi (24:41):
Absolutely.
You touched on, you touched onnot always having the most
knowledgeable person, andthey're not always, probably not
always the most culturallyintelligent person.
There is that balance that theyneed to have, so you need to
have that curiosity.
You need to have...
That, yes, it's great to haveknowledge, but you also need to
(25:03):
have people who can be adaptableand can change to different
situations and interactions.
But also on top of that, youneed people who can actually put
things into play.
And it's the people who can actupon what they know to be
culturally intelligent.
So sometimes the people who aremost knowledgeable, they put
(25:24):
them, they put their ownbarriers in front of them that
prevent the organization and theindividuals and those for the
influence from actuallyprogressing because these start
too many limitations becausethey have such a great
knowledge.
I know I've seen that within myown community.
Spaces that I've worked withinthat we hire the most
knowledgeable.
(25:44):
I'm going to use health andsafety, for example, rather than
a Māori one.
We hire some amazing health andsafety managers or advisors and
their, well their managers, andthey've got so much knowledge
and understanding of legislationand hazards and risks and, and
all of those sort of things.
But then they get into theworkplace and they have no idea
(26:05):
how to motivate individualsaround them.
They...
Are so used to, and because, youknow, health and safety is such,
so broad, they may be hazardoussubstance, super nerds and
completely scholars aroundhazardous substances, but then
they know nothing aboutmachinery, and they're not
curious enough to find out moreabout that.
(26:26):
They rather focus on what their,their strength is.
So, in terms of a health andsafety concept, or within that
context, It's not always theperson who's the most
knowledgeable who's going to getthings done.
It's those who have that four-way, they're, they're
(26:46):
motivated, they know how to,strategically do things, and
then they know how to act onthose things, but they're also
have their own drive
Greg (26:54):
So right at the beginning you talked about aligning, all
of our diverse perspectives withorganizational goals.
One of the things I see withcultural intelligence, and it's
a, I think it's a thing thatMany organizations struggle with
is worker engagement.
(27:16):
And I see cultural intelligence,or enhancing cultural
intelligence, at a team level,at an organizational level, as a
perfect scenario or opportunityto create worker engagement and
(27:37):
participation.
By getting different culturestogether, getting their
perspectives on a policy or aprocedure or a way of doing work
or, or where the Christmas partyis going to be this year.
You know, whatever it might be,I, I just see it as, because I
think we beat ourselves up somuch about this worker
(27:59):
engagement stuff.
And, oh yeah, we've got to havethis many reps and we've got to
have a committee and we've gotto do this.
And maybe that's true and maybeit's not, you know, but I think
one of the things to reallycreate real participation is
leveraging of organisational, orcreating organisational
(28:22):
intelligence by connectingeverybody together at a cultural
level.
And again, I keep saying it'snot just about ethnicities, I'm
not saying let's get the Māoriworker and the Tongan worker and
the Filipino worker together tohave a chat about stuff.
It's, it's, you know, let's,let's have a talk about the,
(28:42):
neurodiversity issues that wehave in the workplace.
You know, are we creating all ofthis paperwork that a percentage
of, of, people don't understand?
Somebody, somebody posed aquestion recently at a
presentation aroundneurodiversity, actually, now
that I've got onto thatbandwagon.
What's an acceptable percentageof workers to not communicate
(29:08):
with effectively in a workplace?
How about that for a question?
Jodhi (29:16):
That is, wow, that's a great question.
And what was the response then?
Greg (29:22):
He wasn't looking for an answer.
It was just, you know, it's sortof like the old question of,
what's an acceptable LTI rate?
You know, it's what's theacceptable number of, of
workers.
That we are prepared to notcommunicate effectively with,
and so you could take that andyou can consider it from a
neurodiverse perspective, youcan consider it from an English
(29:45):
as a second languageperspective, you can consider it
as, from a perspective of you'vegot a bunch of workers who don't
do particularly well at school,
Jodhi (29:51):
See, and I'll probably throw the question back then.
My question will be is what'sthe impact of not engaging with
that percentage of workers?
Correct.
Greg (29:59):
Right?
That's the second question thatcomes out of that.
And I will, I'm going to try it.
You know, the next time I'maround a board table somewhere
talking to an organisation, Imight put that question out
there and I'll be interested inhow that is responded to.
Jodhi (30:19):
See, and I will be a bit cheeky and I'll probably throw
back some statistics.
The, the, if you think about notengaging with Māori, in the
workplace, well, they're 51percent more likely to be harmed
in the workplace.
So the impact is to them asindividuals, them as their
(30:40):
community, the productivity ofthe workplace.
The impact is huge by notengaging with certain, maybe not
percentages, but maybe differentvarious groups of people.
So if you have a, it reallydepends.
That's a such a, a divisivequestion.
(31:00):
It's a great question to throwback at people.
But yeah, it's got me thinkingit about a whole lot of
different other questions.
And that's one thing that'sreally good about having that
opportunity for people when youcreate that intellectual honesty
within your own, workplace.
Thank you.
They can ask questions like thatand then it makes us think
(31:22):
further about what we're doingfor worker engagement.
Are we truly leveraging off bygoing out to these different
various, groups, working groupsand say, Hey, can you please
read this and give me somefeedback?
Because you know, if it's apolicy or procedure and you're
giving it to a group of workers,very few will actually give you
(31:44):
feedback.
I'd like to think that I wouldgive you feedback, but then it
all comes down to what of apriority this has for me.
How much effect does it have onmy or impact does it have on my
everyday working life?
And how I, that's really howmuch it impacts me and if I have
the time to do it.
So what's the use of engaging ifyou haven't provided space for
(32:09):
the engagement to occur?
Greg (32:11):
Into your environment.
You know construction and withthat question in the back of
your mind you know you thinkabout the morning toolbox talk
where there's a supervisorstanding up the front of the
smoko shed or or wherever with a10 page JSEA and going through
it and What percentage of theworkers are you not connecting
(32:35):
with by doing that process?
Talking to them about a bunch ofstuff that is probably
irrelevant.
Or, let's say it's not, not allof it is relevant to them and
most of it probably is notrelevant in that format of, some
10-page document that somebody'syapping at them at the front of
(32:56):
the room.
You know?
And then yeah, then ask thatquestion.
I mean I don't know what theanswer's going to be in terms of
how many people are you notconnecting with, are you not
communicating effectively with.
I would suggest it's a largepercentage of that group of
people that are not engaged, notconnected.
(33:19):
And all at the, all Toolbox.
Meeting format is doing isticking a box somewhere.
Jodhi (33:26):
I'm going to throw a question back at you.
Oh dear.
From from your experience andit's vast and.
I, I, what do you think isstopping us from effective
worker engagement?
Greg (33:43):
I think it's, I think it's a lack of knowledge at an
organisational level of, to bangmy own drum, cultural
intelligence really.
It's a lack of understandingpeople.
And, trying to communicate andconnect with people.
In the way maybe that we wouldprefer to be connected and
(34:08):
engaged with, rather thanthinking about the values and
norms of the people who we arestewards of as, as
organisational owners.
I mean, yes, there's some goodexamples out there of, of good
(34:28):
worker engagement.
I've seen it.
I've heard about it.
And not from managers, you know,but I, I'm not sure that it's
the majority.
I think, I think to get betterworker engagement, we need to
better understand the people,not the process, not the HR
(34:49):
process, not the health andsafety process that we've got to
do it this way.
I mean, I'm an advocate oflearning teams, but, but
learning teams have got to bedone properly in terms of
engaging with the people.
Not.
necessarily following a setprocess.
It's just about having a genuineconversation.
(35:10):
You've probably got to createtrust and inspiration.
A little while ago I was on abit of a bandwagon around the
elimination of Command andControl type approaches and
workplaces and this came allcame out of the book.
It's called Trust and Iinspireby Stephen Covey Junior and
(35:37):
saying that you know the commandand control model does not
create trust and inspiration.
And that's really what you wantto get with your workforce.
Is that they trust that there'stwo way trust actually.
And, probably two-wayinspiration that workers are
inspired by the business and thebusiness is inspired by its
workers.
And if you've got that, then,you know, the pathway to worker
(36:02):
engagement surely has got to bebetter.
Jodhi (36:06):
You know, the, it's really easy for us to come onto
these podcasts and talk aboutthe really great way of
practicing and stuff like that.
And the reason I asked thatquestion was, is that it's a
question I'm often asked, and alot of high expectations are
also placed on me as a healthand safety practitioner, and now
(36:27):
as, like, TRMA, Te Ropu Marutauois growing its reputation and
things like that, still workingwithin the corporate world,
there's a higher expectationplaced on me to actually have
amazing teams, have amazingworker engagement and all of
that.
And whilst I have a lot of thetools and the keys and, and the
(36:47):
knowledge and the understanding,the hardest part that I'm
actually finding is actuallyhaving the time, having the time
to engage.
So one of the greatest barriersthat I find as a leader in
trying to have effective workerengagement is time.
To be culturally intelligent,to...
To connect with people, toensure that we're good stewards
(37:10):
in our leadership positionsrequires a considerable amount
of time, which most people inpositions of leadership, senior
leaders don't actually have.
It's because we, we're stretchedthin.
We do a lot of things within ourown communities as well, which
(37:31):
means that our nine to fivejobs.
I'm often nine to five, or afterfive jobs, actually can be as
late as 2am.
So those early mornings too whenwe're alone and we can actually
do the work that we need to forour communities.
So when I think of what'sstopping us from effective
(37:52):
worker engagement, I say thatthere's not enough time.
Greg (37:55):
And does that come down to different perceptions of time?
Because there's, there's, youknow, there's, there's obviously
different values and normsaround the concept of time.
And there's some older research,and I think I mentioned this in
the, when I presented it atHazans, that time is the most
(38:19):
popular word.
Sorry, the most popular noun inthe English languages.
And the research that foundthat, and the reason I say it's
a little bit older.
Is that it's cited, searches onyahoo.com, and I'm not sure that
anybody's got a Yahoo accountanymore, but, I went and sort of
dug a little bit deeper into itand, and, and did the same sort
(38:41):
of just random search on Googleand, and yeah, time was, time
was right up there.
But if you go to non-Englishspeaking.
"...cultures".
Time is, is not irrelevant butnowhere near as important a
concept as it is in, in Englishspeaking countries.
(39:04):
You know, we're always late,we've gotta be on time, can't be
late, the calendar rules yourlife.
All of those sorts of things.
And yeah, so it's justunderstanding how that works,
you know, across cultures aswell.
Jodhi (39:19):
I had some Pasifika friends and they, what they did
was, so this roopu or thisgroup, they, it was just a
collection of Pasifika peoplefrom various, organizations
coming together and tostrategically plan.
So they were part of largerorganizations, but they were
(39:40):
told to come together andstrategically plan, how they can
move forward and grow awarenessof Pacific needs and peoples.
And what they said was, is thatit was really hard, and they
shared, my friend shared withme, that it was really hard to
bring this concept of comingwith an outcome into a Pacific
(40:01):
realm, because the concepts oftime were that, What will be,
will be.
We will come out with what wecome out with.
We're not going to beconstrained by trying to engage
in this.
But what will be, will be.
So it was understanding thatthis is a time for us to use
this relational space to cometogether, to be one, but don't
(40:26):
worry about the outcome.
So, I learnt from them thatsometimes I had to not always
worry about what the outcome wasgoing to be.
Don't always worry too muchabout everything that's
happening around you, but be inthe space with that individual
or with that group, and just getto be there, be present, and not
(40:52):
always look forward, and like,try to plan everything around
that.
But I, if I was going to givesome like, something back to
leaders, something back toworkers as well, is that now
that, Know that your managersand your senior leaders, their
intent is quite broad and,they've got a lot which they are
(41:14):
managing.
But they always are looking tobe good stewards of the people
whom they have.
They're also looking to bestewards and prudent with the
financial, the finances that thecompany has as well.
But to be patient with them, andwhen I say patience, it's not,
just be, allow them to have thisor just to wait, but be long
(41:40):
allowing in how you do things.
So allow for them to have space,allow for them to have time, but
do come back to them and say tothem, Hey, I'm just checking in,
how are you doing?
Have you made this decision?
And they will engage with you,but sometimes you need to be
motivated and proactive in whatyou need to do.
(42:01):
But be allowing too, that allgood decisions require more
detail, they require diversethought.
But be patient and long-allowingwith your leaders.
Greg (42:15):
Hey, look, I'm going to say that's a great ending to
leave this episode with.
And I know we sort of, we cameinto this just really to have a
chat.
About whatever came up.
And I think we've achieved thatobjective and just talked about
a bunch of stuff.
And, and yeah, I think that's agreat takeaway for people to
(42:39):
consider and reflect on how theymight achieve that in their
workplaces, in their roles andtheir roles as an individual.
Because I want could create apathway for them to be seen as a
leader, through their enhancedunderstanding of, of their own
culture, their own culturalapproach.
(43:00):
Because you can't actually beculturally intelligent until you
understand yourself from thatperspective.
And so yeah, I just just againthanks for your time Jodhi and
look forward to maybe chattingagain soon.
Jodhi (43:18):
Ngā mihi Greg once again for your support and all your
tautoko, take care and be safe.
Greg (43:24):
Alright, team, that brings us to the end of this episode
and what a conversation it'sbeen huge thanks again to Jody
Warwick Ponga for joining us andfor bringing such grounded,
powerful insights into thisspace.
There's a few key takeaways Iwanna leave you with today.
First, that idea of diversity isa dynamic resource jodhi
(43:47):
reminded us that every personbrings something unique to the
table.
And when we embrace that, weopen the door to creativity,
innovation, and more effectivedecision making.
Second, we talked a lot aboutintellectual honesty.
It's not just about making spacefor people to feel safe speaking
(44:09):
up, but also creating theexpectation that it's okay to
disagree and challenge ideasconstructively.
That's where real growthhappens.
Third, it's not just aboutticking the CPD box, but truly
reflecting on our own beliefs,biases, and blind spots.
(44:33):
If we want to develop culturalintelligence, we have to start
with understanding ourselveswhen we reflect and finally
time.
Jodhi raised an important pointthat being culturally
intelligent takes time.
Time to build trust.
Time to connect, time to bepresent, and sometimes that's
(44:56):
the biggest challenge of all inleadership.
So wherever you are at in yourjourney.
I hope there's something in thisepisode that sparked a little
bit of thought or reflection foryou.
I'll drop the transcript intothe show notes and if you wanna
keep the conversation going, youcan always find me on LinkedIn
(45:17):
subscribe to the podcast if youhaven't done so already.
And keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Until then, thanks so much forlistening.
Take care.
Be safe and stay curious, mā tewā.
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