April 16, 2025 • 30 mins
A rich and thought-provoking kōrero with Vance Walker — a returning guest and a true thought leader in integrating Māori culture with health and safety practices.
In this episode, we explored how cultural intelligence can evolve from an academic concept into a powerful, data-driven tool for real-world change, particularly through the Me Mataara project. Vance's work is pushing boundaries, not just in terms of reducing injuries for Māori workers, but also in redefining what it means to take culture seriously in our profession.
Here are a few key takeaways from the conversation:
Cultural intelligence is ready for the real world.
Me Mataara is showing us how to move beyond theory by connecting cultural values contained in Kia Tupato and Te Whare Tapa Whā with measurable workplace safety outcomes.
Data is the new lever for cultural change.
One of the big gaps Vance identified is the lack of hard business data to support cultural initiatives. Me Mataara aims to fill that gap, offering evidence businesses can use to build solid cases for cultural integration.
Worker-centric change starts with leadership.
Engaging both workers and leaders — through workshops, storytelling, and tech — is at the heart of the project’s success. And that includes using platforms and voices that resonate with younger and more diverse audiences.
We need to challenge assumptions.
Whether it’s our view of cultural intelligence as "soft" or our limited understanding of cultural dynamics across gender and ethnicity, Vance reminded us that looking at things differently is the first step toward doing things differently.
If this episode sparked any ideas or questions for you, let’s keep the conversation going. You can connect with me on LinkedIn — I’d love to hear your thoughts. And if you’re enjoying the podcast, please follow or subscribe, and share it with someone who might find value in this kaupapa.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
This week we're talking tofriend of the show and
well-known personality in thehealth and safety world, vance
Walker.
For those who may not knowVance, he's an independent
research practitioner with abackground in regulation and
(01:28):
critical risk assessment.
He is a member of the NZISMboard and the National
Association for Maori Health andSafety Professionals, Te Ropu
Marutau O Aotearoa.
Vance has always been drawn tothings Maori, his main
contribution centers onconnecting Maori culture with
health and safety.
Product of this work is MeMatara, a three year a CC funded
(01:50):
project.
Among its aims is to enablehealthier and safer decisions
made by workers to connect withbetter work systems, used by
businesses and importantly forthis podcast, this project is
connected to culturalintelligence.
Kia ora Vance, great to have youon the show again.
Vance (02:12):
Kia ora Greg, It's nice again to talk with you..
May I start by saying I'm justamazed by your little adventures
lately in terms of culturalintelligence?
So that's really good rolemodeling, inspiring stuff for
other people in our disciplinebased in Aotearoa New Zealand.
So thanks a lot for the, foryour contribution.
It just keeps on going andgoing.
Greg (02:31):
Doesn't it Kia ora?
So before we get into adiscussion around Me Mataara
it's been about a year since welast had you on the show in
fact, 13 months was the lasttime you spoke to us.
What has been taking up yourtime since then other than this
ACC project or has it all beenabout the a ACC project?
Vance (02:53):
I had two opportunities last year.
One was to put in a bid forwellbeing app, for IRD, so that
took a bit of time up from myend.
And I had to learn a bit, a lotabout technology that bid
failed.
But the learning I got out of itwas quite good.
And then the a ACC opportunitycame along, so that's been
(03:14):
sucking up a bit of my time.
I still like to practice, soI've got clients on the go.
I have moved from on the groundauditing engagement work in the
construction sector to what'sknown as a client rep.
So now I represent the client'sinterest on site.
So I try to help and support thehealth and safety people
involved in projects.
(03:35):
Otherwise life is good and busy.
Greg (03:38):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Always good.
Yeah lots of experiences.
And just thinking back to someof the stuff that you've been
doing over the last, I don'tknow how many years, but you've,
you've got that WorkSafeexperience, you've got
consultancy and you've got workwithin business, both at an
administrative level and a, andan operational level.
So heaps of stuff going on, but.
(03:58):
Look, let's get down to it.
We are here to talk about memataara.
Tell us what that project is allabout.
Vance (04:06):
Yeah, so thanks.
As you mentioned, it's a threeyear project involving, well
funded by a ACC, but there'salso involvement from saferme,
the app providers, Te WhareWānanaga O Awanuiārangi who will
be doing some evaluation workand we've also got a bunch of
contractors involved.
Obvious.
(04:26):
Partners is doing a lot ofbranding and marketing.
And we're bringing on boardinfluencers.
So in the next few weeksthere'll be one or two videos
coming out from our board.
So Me Mataara has a boardinvolving Mohi Apou, Professor
Te Kani Kingi, Toby Beagleholeand Ratahi Cross.
(04:53):
They're the board that guide me.
Me Mataara at the sharp end aimsto reduce injury claims for
Maori workers in themanufacturing sector by about
50%.
It's a audacious goal, but it'sworth it.
There are three parts to MeMataara, the first part involves
(05:14):
white labeling, the Safer MeSafety Snap App.
So that app is already on themarket, but we're gonna
repurpose it for Me Mataara andwe're gonna recall it the Me
Mataara working app, the MeMataara worker app will measure
the use of Kia Tupato and TeWhare Tapa Whā by workers based
(05:36):
in the Miraka Milk Mokai Plant.
So it's a real big business thathas high risk environments in it
with real workers.
The data produced by the appwill include the cost of
interventions and the use ofgood work design.
(05:57):
So good work design comes froman Australian based practice
model or theory that talksabout, the use of engagement
technology at the design stageof designing different work.
The second part involvedtransferring all the data into
what we're gonna call the MeMataara Business Case app,
(06:20):
Microsoft Global Brackets.
Indigenous has shown an interestin helping us to develop that
app as a role model for otherindigenous cultures that app
will provide businesses with theinformation they need to develop
business cases to decide or notto invest in this kind of
matauranga based intervention.
(06:41):
So a common comment that Ireceive is from health and
safety professionals, is they'rereally interested in it, but
they need the hard data or thehard information to put in front
of their boards or theirmanagers to make business cases.
So that was a big gap weidentified.
The third part in achieving MeMataara requires more than the
(07:04):
use of interventions in thedata, we are also going to use a
digital platform, probablycircle.so to establish the Me
Mataara, Haporo community.
So the platform will be online,will enable people or groups to
access content such as,articles, newsletters,
(07:26):
interactive discussions, andwe're also finishing off some
micro credentials.
And we'll also be doing liveevents such as webinars and q
and a sessions.
We're all gonna do it within asingle interface, so that'll be
the online community we'rebuilding.
I think for the different nichegroups we have in our
disciplines, such as culturalintelligence, we're looking at
the, offering like a smallcomponent of the platform.
(07:50):
Not only can they participate inMe Mataara, but they also might
wanna use it to raise, ideas,thinkings, discussions around
their niche expertise or whatthey wanna do.
So we're trying to build acommunity.
So it's quite hard, it's earlydays, but we do have a rough
plan.
It must be so good.
(08:10):
In terms of a plan that I don'tunderstand a lot of what the
marketing and branding guyssaying because they're quite
advanced, but more importantly,they're not my age.
They're a lot younger, sothey're pitching it at entry
workers or young workers.
And I'll be pitching my stuff atthe more senior workers, so
that's where it's at the moment,Greg.
Greg (08:29):
So as you say, what do they call it?
a BHAG, a big hairy, audaciousgoal.
50%.
Injury reduction inmanufacturing.
How and you may not have got tothis yet, but what's the plan in
terms of engaging the workforce?
In this process, I guess you'vealready done the engagement with
(08:51):
the milk plant management andleadership to, to get yourself
in the door.
How's the worker engagementgonna work with the guys on the
ground and girls on the ground?
Vance (09:02):
I'll divide it up into two parts.
Boys and Girls on the Ground,which are the Miraka Milk
workers at the Mokai plant.
So 40 plus workers will upliftthe app.
But it's just an app.
So we'll be doing workshops.
We've already had the firstmeeting with the management team
over there.
The board's really keen.
A key part of this type of workis getting the senior leaders on
(09:22):
board and they're really intoit.
So the engagement includes boththe use of the app supporting
Hui on site, but we're alsogonna be doing what's our
mantra, which is called Showdon't Tell.
So we've we're engaging TamatiRemene-Sproat to do a lot of
presentations and he'll be doinginterviews with workers and
(09:45):
we'll be doing little clips of,them using the app, their work.
And alongside of that we'reeliciting influences.
And that will, that may includeyou, Greg.
'cause we need to warm things upso the influencers get an idea
of what's happening and thenwe'll be doing little video
clips of what people think.
It doesn't necessarily have toagree with what we're doing.
(10:06):
Again, we're trying to build acommunity.
So having that, that discussion.
Greg (10:11):
And the Microsoft global indigenous team, is that is that
Dan Te Whenua Walker?
Vance (10:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he's pointed the direction interms of different opportunities
we can pursue.
Greg (10:22):
Yeah.
I dunno if he's a listener ofthe show.
But Kia Ora, Dan Dan was one oftwo people who actually got me
on the path of culturalintelligence.
When he presented at when I wason the Masters in Leadership
journey he presented onindigenous leadership and really
fascinating to both hear hisstory back then and watch.
(10:43):
What he's been doing over thelast few years.
So yeah, you've got, I thinkyou've hooked into a good one
there, Vance.
Vance (10:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dan's quite unique because, mostpeople you can say there's a
start, a middle and the end, butI can't see an end for Dan.
He just keeps on going up andup, given where he started off.
So yeah, nothing but admiration.
Greg (11:03):
I think did I see on LinkedIn yesterday?
Just got his chartered IODmembership status awarded.
Yeah, doing doing lots of coolstuff.
So Me Mataara, how does thatconnect with other TRMA
initiatives?
And I guess you've mentionedyour initiative as part of this
and also Te Whare Tapa Whā, isthere any connection to things
(11:26):
likeHaumaru Tangata and TeTekanga Mai
Vance (11:30):
So Haumaru Tangata including the assessments that
TRMA do are basicallypreparation steps in terms of
preparing a business to to goalong this track in terms of the
use of Māori culture in theworkplaces.
Me Mataara differs, quitesignificantly is we are not
(11:55):
piloting anything we're gonnaconfirm the use of Te Whare Tapa
Whā and Kia Tupato so we knowthat it does work we just have
to use a bigger sample to do it.
So if anything, the relationshipwould be if and when Me Mataara
is successful and produces theright results it can be used as
a case study or a role model forthose businesses that are
(12:20):
working more at the HaumaruTangata end preparing themselves
to be a Me Mataara or Mirakamilk business, applying Māori
culture in their workplace.
The other initiative, and Iforget what it's called, so I'll
fit into that that's myunderstanding is a discovery
type, due diligence, feasibilitystudy on what associations or
(12:46):
tools are needed to improve theoutcomes for Māori Pacifica and
migrant workers?
So I can't talk for Pacifica ormigrant workers.
What I can say is, sure.
Me Mataara again provides a casestudy or role model for Māori
workers and employers to procurethese Matauranga Māori practices
(13:12):
using some good data, some goodbusiness data, so that's the
relationship.
Greg (13:18):
Nice.
Okay.
And you briefly mentionedcultural intelligence and maybe
we can spend some time talkingabout that, but at a very basic
level, what's the connectionwith your project to the concept
of cultural intelligence?
Vance (13:33):
Me Mataara should provide a serious business proposition
for procuring culturalintelligence.
So my view is that culturalintelligence, along with a whole
bunch of other cultural nicheswithin health and safety, has a
(13:55):
novelty to it because it hasn'tbeen robustly.
Studied and proven in a businesssense.
And that undermines theseriousness of the value of
cultural intelligence.
So Me Mataara is trying toprovide the business data that
(14:15):
businesses can use to decide ornot to purchase, and it is
purchase because health andsafety largely is a private good
to purchase culturalintelligence.
The other flip side is thecultural intelligence guys.
Have to move away from.
Yeah.
I'll be honest.
The fluffy stuff.
(14:36):
And let's get into how doescultural intelligence reduce
harms and improve outcomes?
So my view is that culturalintelligence is quite a nice way
of looking at things, butlooking at things doesn't
exactly improve things.
(14:57):
So we're trying to provide datathat, cultural intelligence
proponents, leaders,practitioners, can look at and
say, oh, this is how they did inme Māori culture.
What could I do in terms of myculture or my cultural
intelligence learning?
Not quite exacting to culturalintelligence, but probably just
on the side or the peripheral toprovide a format of information
(15:21):
that can be used later.
That aside, we are measuring theuse of, so those are very much
well known cultural intelligencetools.
So we're gonna be measuringthose quite acutely and we're
gonna be using a bit oftechnology, probably more than
what's ever been used before, sothat, that fast forwards the
whole understanding of thosepractices and modern workplaces.
(15:45):
And it does eliminate some ofthe novelty comments that float,
float around those twopractices.
Greg (15:52):
Really interesting discussion on that and I guess
to maybe explore it a little bitfurther and you mentioned some
of my recent exploits aroundcultural intelligence.
So I, as far as I see it,there's two components.
There's cultural intelligence,the academic content that
exists, the research, thetraining and everything that
(16:15):
comes along with that, which, sothe research has been around
for, started in about the thelate nineties.
And actually I might not havetold you the story but cultural
intelligence started during theperiod when it, the IT industry
was trying to address.
The Y 2K problem.
And so they had a bunch of ITprogrammers gathering in
(16:39):
Singapore to try and resolvethis issue that, the world was
gonna blow up on the first ofthe first 2000.
And they agreed a whole bunch ofinitiatives went, all went back
to their own sort of parts ofthe world, their own countries
did the work that, had come outof the workshops and when they
reconvened, found that everybodyhad gone away and done different
(17:01):
things.
And so that led to a path ofwow, this, we've, we had a bunch
of people in the room that wereacross a whole range of
cultures.
And we all interpreted what wehad agreed in different ways.
Hence then was born.
Cultural intelligence research.
And so there was research doneover 20 years until now.
(17:22):
And then so that, that's allthat stuff, you can go and get
trained in CQ and you can do anassessment and you can read the
research articles.
I think where you are comingfrom is.
We need to make it practical.
And so the Fellows program thatI'm involved in the goal of that
(17:42):
is to create a cohort ofindividuals around the world who
who know a lot about theresearch and the academic stuff,
but are focusing on thepracticalities of how cultural
intelligence can be a benefit inour niche areas.
(18:02):
So for me, CQ and safety and andit's taking it to a practical
level of, okay, so the researchsays this, what does it actually
look like in the real world in abusiness?
Which is, I think also what youare suggesting and what your
project and maybe some of theother things is all about.
Does that sound about right interms of what your commentary
was?
(18:23):
Yeah.
Vance (18:23):
Yeah.
I could, maybe I could elaborateon that.
From my view, if we had CQ asthe umbrella and we were worker
centric, so we'd have CQ as theumbrella in the middle as the
worker, and on the left handside is the supply.
And on the right hand side isthe demand.
So the supply is thepractitioners, is academia
(18:47):
coming in to support the workersand on the demand side are the
businesses, working across tothe workers, basically to meet
their business and legal duties.
There's a tendency because it'seasier to approach workers from
the supply side.
My view is that's failing.
And I think the data's showingthat.
(19:08):
So Me Mataara works from thedemand side.
I think from a CQ point of view.
It doesn't matter which side'scoming, but Me Mataara should
provide some evidence to supportCQ and that cohort that this is
why we collected theinformation.
This is the way the business hasthought about it, and this is
how they've used it, again I usethe term a serious consideration
(19:32):
when it comes to things like cq,and I understand that, my work's
only on the ethnic side ofculture.
There's a whole bunch of otheraspects of culture.
Yep.
Greg (19:43):
Yep.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I've mentioned that manytimes around just including all
of those different aspects ofdiversity and different
organizational cultures.
You can you can apply theconcept between, a milk station
in your part of the world to amilk station in Invercargill are
gonna have different culturesthat that using the CQ model,
(20:07):
you could you could apply thatto engaging with both of those
parties to try and get someeffective and useful outcomes.
The other thing that youmentioned was Kia Tupato and
that was obviously somethingthat sort of really got you on
the path of doing some of thiswork of integrating health and
safety into Māori culture, anysort of updates on where that's
(20:29):
at, what it's is, it is, it'sout there.
Obviously people are using it.
Where's that going?
Vance (20:35):
Ah, it resonates, it resonates with heaps of
different people in terms ofcaution versus safety.
So that's where it's, that'swhere it's positioned at the
moment.
Me Mataara uses technology toconfirm that it's, a legitimate
intervention in a workplace thatcan reduce injury claims for
(20:56):
that workforce.
You and I have spoken about,shown me signs and your story of
a lady on the escalator.
So it's there, it's happening.
My job is not, I think I've donea job of taking out of the
shadows and putting it on theagenda.
The next big step is just toconfirm it, and that's data,
videos of influencers supportingit.
(21:18):
So that's where we at.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg (21:20):
Yeah.
And so moving forward with MeMataara what's, what does the
next six months look like?
Vance (21:28):
We have to get our marketing branding onto
platforms and the wider socialmedia.
So we've started filmingdifferent influences.
So the idea is we get themarketing content of Me Mataara
online, so that warms up thecommunity to say something's
happening and they might show aninterest and then we are going
(21:50):
to decide on the online platformwe're gonna use again.
It might be circle.
So we get that up and running.
The Me Mataara worker app hasbeen basically almost at the
prototype stage by saferme andthanks saferme Clinton and the
crowd for helping with that.
And then we've openeddiscussions with who all have
(22:12):
agreed months ago to participateand so we're just working out.
The mechanics of that.
So#MeMataara the go to at thisstage and just watch this space
in terms of the social mediamessaging and, content we're
gonna be putting out..
I can say that confidently'causeI'll probably spend, gonna spend
(22:33):
a small mortgage on bloodygetting that stuff across the
line.
So I'm quite serious this timearound Greg.
Hey, I'll tell you what I foundout doing Me Mataara.
I found out some interestingstuff'cause I wanted to look at
Māori woman workers and atidbit.
Pharaohs, Egyptian, pharaohs,they wear wigs, eh, they wear
(22:53):
wigs.
You see them on, differentthings, pictures and stuff.
And the Wigs signify that thePharaoh, who is usually a male.
Has reached the status of awoman.
So the wigs represents a woman'slong hair because women in
Egyptian cultures and still areseen as the pinnacle of
(23:17):
intellect and I suppose youcould say cultural intelligence.
And I found that fascinating,especially when I look at Māori
women and how they're held inhigh esteem.
But, over time that perceptionhas changed somewhat.
So that's a little tidbit that Ifound and I like those little
tidbits.
'cause when you go to explainthings and reinforce your
(23:38):
messaging, you can use somethingfrom another culture to explain
why you are arguing this.
Yeah.
Greg (23:47):
Look, I think that perception of gender differences
in many cultures you might hearsimilar stories.
You've obviously highlightedthe, women in Māori culture.
And you see that.
In action on marae and variousother places and your story and
even middle Eastern women.
I've, I had I think I gave youthe connection to Dr.
(24:08):
Hend Zaki who runs a course onMuslim people living in Western
countries and her PhD wasparticularly on the experience
of Muslim people living in NewZealand and growing a life here.
And I guess the whole hijab andhead scarf discussion creates a
lot of tension across culturesand I just have heard so many
(24:31):
stories from the Middle Easternside of the story that, that,
their perception and their useand their acceptance of it is
totally different to how Westernpeople traditionally view it.
And similarly to the storyyou've told the regard in which
women are kept or held in Muslimculture is is probably not
(24:52):
something that Western peoplehear a lot about.
So I think, yeah, I think it'svery consistent and I guess our
job is as being, people that aretheoretically culturally
intelligent is justacknowledging that it's not to,
it's not to say it's good orit's bad, it's just to try and
understand it, listen to it andacknowledge that's that cultural
(25:15):
approach to whatever the subjectmight be.
Vance (25:19):
Yeah.
I think you're perfectly right.
Just getting the information outthere is more important at this
stage.
Me and just provides a moreserious, a serious lean towards
that information.
Greg (25:32):
Yeah.
So you're working on somemarketing is there anything that
the wider health and safetycommunity.
Can do, should do, has theopportunity to do in becoming
more knowledgeable about yourproject or involved in it or
contributing to it.
Vance (25:51):
Yeah, so keep an eye out for the#MeMataara as I'm only
person doing it at this stage.
Keep an eye out for the digitalplatform that we will put into
play later this month or nextmonth.
So that will provide theplatform for people too
participate, but moreimportantly, contribute.
They might make a short video,this is what I think about Me
(26:14):
Mataara.
Or they might not, it might notbe about Me Mataara, it might be
about cultural intelligence.
I might put something, a link toyour podcast on the platform.
Whereas health and safety,people just keep an eye out at
this stage and when things startto warm up take more of an
interest.
Yeah.
Greg (26:30):
And I guess you'll be you'll be front and center on
stage at next year's TRMAconference.
Will you be waving the MeMataara flag?
Vance (26:38):
Yeah.
There should be some somethingto talk about then.
You know what I mean?
So I don't wanna dopresentations about what ifs.
I want to give presentations ofthis.
This is what happened, goodstorytelling.
But I'm more interested inpresentations outside of where
people expect Me Mataara to bepresented so overseas.
(27:01):
Yeah.
And you encourage me to look atthose types of opportunities
before but I've gotta getthrough the work first.
Greg (27:06):
That's awesome.
Vance good to hear that thisthat this work is being done.
Look forward to following thejourney over the next the next
little while.
And good to have a korero andand really interesting to hear
what you've been up to for thelast little while.
Vance (27:21):
Thanks, Greg.
It's always nice talking withyou.
And about you.
I, I.
I really like the, your littlejourney you're on at the moment.
I know it's a limited window anda rarity in the scheme of things
enjoy it.
Enjoy it for every minute it'sworth.
Greg (27:38):
Thanks again for joining me in this episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional.
What a rich and thoughtprovoking korero with Vance
Walker, a returning guest and atrue thought leader in
integrating Māori culture withhealth and safety practices.
In today's episode, we exploredhow cultural intelligence can
(28:01):
evolve from an academic conceptinto a powerful data driven tool
for real world change,particularly through the Me
Mataara project.
Vance's work is pushingboundaries, not just in terms of
reducing injuries for Māoriworkers, but also in redefining
(28:21):
what it means to take cultureseriously in our profession.
Here are some of my takeawaysfrom the conversation.
Cultural intelligence is readyfor the real world.
Me Mataara is showing us how tomove beyond theory by connecting
cultural values contained ininitiatives like Kia Tupato and
(28:43):
Te Whare Tapa Whā withmeasurable workplace safety
outcomes.
Data is a new lever for culturalchange.
One of the biggest gaps Vanceidentified is the lack of hard
business data to supportcultural initiatives.
Me Mataara aims to fill that gapoffering evidence businesses can
(29:06):
use to build solid cases forcultural integration.
Worker centric change startswith leadership, engaging both
workers and leaders throughworkshops, storytelling and tech
is at the heart of the projectsuccess, and that includes using
(29:27):
platforms and voices thatresonate with younger and more
diverse audiences.
And finally, We all need tochallenge assumptions, whether
it's our view of culturalintelligence as soft, or our
limited understanding ofcultural dynamics across gender
and ethnicity.
(29:47):
Vance reminded us that lookingat things differently is a first
step towards doing thingsdifferently.
If this episode sparked anyideas or questions for you,
let's keep the conversationgoing.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn.
I'd love to hear your thoughts,and if you're enjoying the
podcast, please follow orsubscribe and share it with
(30:11):
someone who might find value inthe kaupapa.
Until next time, mā te wā.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership, psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
This week we're talking tofriend of the show and
well-known personality in thehealth and safety world, vance
Walker.
For those who may not knowVance, he's an independent
research practitioner with abackground in regulation and
(01:28):
critical risk assessment.
He is a member of the NZISMboard and the National
Association for Maori Health andSafety Professionals, Te Ropu
Marutau O Aotearoa.
Vance has always been drawn tothings Maori, his main
contribution centers onconnecting Maori culture with
health and safety.
Product of this work is MeMatara, a three year a CC funded
(01:50):
project.
Among its aims is to enablehealthier and safer decisions
made by workers to connect withbetter work systems, used by
businesses and importantly forthis podcast, this project is
connected to culturalintelligence.
Kia ora Vance, great to have youon the show again.
Vance (02:12):
Kia ora Greg, It's nice again to talk with you..
May I start by saying I'm justamazed by your little adventures
lately in terms of culturalintelligence?
So that's really good rolemodeling, inspiring stuff for
other people in our disciplinebased in Aotearoa New Zealand.
So thanks a lot for the, foryour contribution.
It just keeps on going andgoing.
Greg (02:31):
Doesn't it Kia ora?
So before we get into adiscussion around Me Mataara
it's been about a year since welast had you on the show in
fact, 13 months was the lasttime you spoke to us.
What has been taking up yourtime since then other than this
ACC project or has it all beenabout the a ACC project?
Vance (02:53):
I had two opportunities last year.
One was to put in a bid forwellbeing app, for IRD, so that
took a bit of time up from myend.
And I had to learn a bit, a lotabout technology that bid
failed.
But the learning I got out of itwas quite good.
And then the a ACC opportunitycame along, so that's been
(03:14):
sucking up a bit of my time.
I still like to practice, soI've got clients on the go.
I have moved from on the groundauditing engagement work in the
construction sector to what'sknown as a client rep.
So now I represent the client'sinterest on site.
So I try to help and support thehealth and safety people
involved in projects.
(03:35):
Otherwise life is good and busy.
Greg (03:38):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Always good.
Yeah lots of experiences.
And just thinking back to someof the stuff that you've been
doing over the last, I don'tknow how many years, but you've,
you've got that WorkSafeexperience, you've got
consultancy and you've got workwithin business, both at an
administrative level and a, andan operational level.
So heaps of stuff going on, but.
(03:58):
Look, let's get down to it.
We are here to talk about memataara.
Tell us what that project is allabout.
Vance (04:06):
Yeah, so thanks.
As you mentioned, it's a threeyear project involving, well
funded by a ACC, but there'salso involvement from saferme,
the app providers, Te WhareWānanaga O Awanuiārangi who will
be doing some evaluation workand we've also got a bunch of
contractors involved.
Obvious.
(04:26):
Partners is doing a lot ofbranding and marketing.
And we're bringing on boardinfluencers.
So in the next few weeksthere'll be one or two videos
coming out from our board.
So Me Mataara has a boardinvolving Mohi Apou, Professor
Te Kani Kingi, Toby Beagleholeand Ratahi Cross.
(04:53):
They're the board that guide me.
Me Mataara at the sharp end aimsto reduce injury claims for
Maori workers in themanufacturing sector by about
50%.
It's a audacious goal, but it'sworth it.
There are three parts to MeMataara, the first part involves
(05:14):
white labeling, the Safer MeSafety Snap App.
So that app is already on themarket, but we're gonna
repurpose it for Me Mataara andwe're gonna recall it the Me
Mataara working app, the MeMataara worker app will measure
the use of Kia Tupato and TeWhare Tapa Whā by workers based
(05:36):
in the Miraka Milk Mokai Plant.
So it's a real big business thathas high risk environments in it
with real workers.
The data produced by the appwill include the cost of
interventions and the use ofgood work design.
(05:57):
So good work design comes froman Australian based practice
model or theory that talksabout, the use of engagement
technology at the design stageof designing different work.
The second part involvedtransferring all the data into
what we're gonna call the MeMataara Business Case app,
(06:20):
Microsoft Global Brackets.
Indigenous has shown an interestin helping us to develop that
app as a role model for otherindigenous cultures that app
will provide businesses with theinformation they need to develop
business cases to decide or notto invest in this kind of
matauranga based intervention.
(06:41):
So a common comment that Ireceive is from health and
safety professionals, is they'rereally interested in it, but
they need the hard data or thehard information to put in front
of their boards or theirmanagers to make business cases.
So that was a big gap weidentified.
The third part in achieving MeMataara requires more than the
(07:04):
use of interventions in thedata, we are also going to use a
digital platform, probablycircle.so to establish the Me
Mataara, Haporo community.
So the platform will be online,will enable people or groups to
access content such as,articles, newsletters,
(07:26):
interactive discussions, andwe're also finishing off some
micro credentials.
And we'll also be doing liveevents such as webinars and q
and a sessions.
We're all gonna do it within asingle interface, so that'll be
the online community we'rebuilding.
I think for the different nichegroups we have in our
disciplines, such as culturalintelligence, we're looking at
the, offering like a smallcomponent of the platform.
(07:50):
Not only can they participate inMe Mataara, but they also might
wanna use it to raise, ideas,thinkings, discussions around
their niche expertise or whatthey wanna do.
So we're trying to build acommunity.
So it's quite hard, it's earlydays, but we do have a rough
plan.
It must be so good.
(08:10):
In terms of a plan that I don'tunderstand a lot of what the
marketing and branding guyssaying because they're quite
advanced, but more importantly,they're not my age.
They're a lot younger, sothey're pitching it at entry
workers or young workers.
And I'll be pitching my stuff atthe more senior workers, so
that's where it's at the moment,Greg.
Greg (08:29):
So as you say, what do they call it?
a BHAG, a big hairy, audaciousgoal.
50%.
Injury reduction inmanufacturing.
How and you may not have got tothis yet, but what's the plan in
terms of engaging the workforce?
In this process, I guess you'vealready done the engagement with
(08:51):
the milk plant management andleadership to, to get yourself
in the door.
How's the worker engagementgonna work with the guys on the
ground and girls on the ground?
Vance (09:02):
I'll divide it up into two parts.
Boys and Girls on the Ground,which are the Miraka Milk
workers at the Mokai plant.
So 40 plus workers will upliftthe app.
But it's just an app.
So we'll be doing workshops.
We've already had the firstmeeting with the management team
over there.
The board's really keen.
A key part of this type of workis getting the senior leaders on
(09:22):
board and they're really intoit.
So the engagement includes boththe use of the app supporting
Hui on site, but we're alsogonna be doing what's our
mantra, which is called Showdon't Tell.
So we've we're engaging TamatiRemene-Sproat to do a lot of
presentations and he'll be doinginterviews with workers and
(09:45):
we'll be doing little clips of,them using the app, their work.
And alongside of that we'reeliciting influences.
And that will, that may includeyou, Greg.
'cause we need to warm things upso the influencers get an idea
of what's happening and thenwe'll be doing little video
clips of what people think.
It doesn't necessarily have toagree with what we're doing.
(10:06):
Again, we're trying to build acommunity.
So having that, that discussion.
Greg (10:11):
And the Microsoft global indigenous team, is that is that
Dan Te Whenua Walker?
Vance (10:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he's pointed the direction interms of different opportunities
we can pursue.
Greg (10:22):
Yeah.
I dunno if he's a listener ofthe show.
But Kia Ora, Dan Dan was one oftwo people who actually got me
on the path of culturalintelligence.
When he presented at when I wason the Masters in Leadership
journey he presented onindigenous leadership and really
fascinating to both hear hisstory back then and watch.
(10:43):
What he's been doing over thelast few years.
So yeah, you've got, I thinkyou've hooked into a good one
there, Vance.
Vance (10:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dan's quite unique because, mostpeople you can say there's a
start, a middle and the end, butI can't see an end for Dan.
He just keeps on going up andup, given where he started off.
So yeah, nothing but admiration.
Greg (11:03):
I think did I see on LinkedIn yesterday?
Just got his chartered IODmembership status awarded.
Yeah, doing doing lots of coolstuff.
So Me Mataara, how does thatconnect with other TRMA
initiatives?
And I guess you've mentionedyour initiative as part of this
and also Te Whare Tapa Whā, isthere any connection to things
(11:26):
likeHaumaru Tangata and TeTekanga Mai
Vance (11:30):
So Haumaru Tangata including the assessments that
TRMA do are basicallypreparation steps in terms of
preparing a business to to goalong this track in terms of the
use of Māori culture in theworkplaces.
Me Mataara differs, quitesignificantly is we are not
(11:55):
piloting anything we're gonnaconfirm the use of Te Whare Tapa
Whā and Kia Tupato so we knowthat it does work we just have
to use a bigger sample to do it.
So if anything, the relationshipwould be if and when Me Mataara
is successful and produces theright results it can be used as
a case study or a role model forthose businesses that are
(12:20):
working more at the HaumaruTangata end preparing themselves
to be a Me Mataara or Mirakamilk business, applying Māori
culture in their workplace.
The other initiative, and Iforget what it's called, so I'll
fit into that that's myunderstanding is a discovery
type, due diligence, feasibilitystudy on what associations or
(12:46):
tools are needed to improve theoutcomes for Māori Pacifica and
migrant workers?
So I can't talk for Pacifica ormigrant workers.
What I can say is, sure.
Me Mataara again provides a casestudy or role model for Māori
workers and employers to procurethese Matauranga Māori practices
(13:12):
using some good data, some goodbusiness data, so that's the
relationship.
Greg (13:18):
Nice.
Okay.
And you briefly mentionedcultural intelligence and maybe
we can spend some time talkingabout that, but at a very basic
level, what's the connectionwith your project to the concept
of cultural intelligence?
Vance (13:33):
Me Mataara should provide a serious business proposition
for procuring culturalintelligence.
So my view is that culturalintelligence, along with a whole
bunch of other cultural nicheswithin health and safety, has a
(13:55):
novelty to it because it hasn'tbeen robustly.
Studied and proven in a businesssense.
And that undermines theseriousness of the value of
cultural intelligence.
So Me Mataara is trying toprovide the business data that
(14:15):
businesses can use to decide ornot to purchase, and it is
purchase because health andsafety largely is a private good
to purchase culturalintelligence.
The other flip side is thecultural intelligence guys.
Have to move away from.
Yeah.
I'll be honest.
The fluffy stuff.
(14:36):
And let's get into how doescultural intelligence reduce
harms and improve outcomes?
So my view is that culturalintelligence is quite a nice way
of looking at things, butlooking at things doesn't
exactly improve things.
(14:57):
So we're trying to provide datathat, cultural intelligence
proponents, leaders,practitioners, can look at and
say, oh, this is how they did inme Māori culture.
What could I do in terms of myculture or my cultural
intelligence learning?
Not quite exacting to culturalintelligence, but probably just
on the side or the peripheral toprovide a format of information
(15:21):
that can be used later.
That aside, we are measuring theuse of, so those are very much
well known cultural intelligencetools.
So we're gonna be measuringthose quite acutely and we're
gonna be using a bit oftechnology, probably more than
what's ever been used before, sothat, that fast forwards the
whole understanding of thosepractices and modern workplaces.
(15:45):
And it does eliminate some ofthe novelty comments that float,
float around those twopractices.
Greg (15:52):
Really interesting discussion on that and I guess
to maybe explore it a little bitfurther and you mentioned some
of my recent exploits aroundcultural intelligence.
So I, as far as I see it,there's two components.
There's cultural intelligence,the academic content that
exists, the research, thetraining and everything that
(16:15):
comes along with that, which, sothe research has been around
for, started in about the thelate nineties.
And actually I might not havetold you the story but cultural
intelligence started during theperiod when it, the IT industry
was trying to address.
The Y 2K problem.
And so they had a bunch of ITprogrammers gathering in
(16:39):
Singapore to try and resolvethis issue that, the world was
gonna blow up on the first ofthe first 2000.
And they agreed a whole bunch ofinitiatives went, all went back
to their own sort of parts ofthe world, their own countries
did the work that, had come outof the workshops and when they
reconvened, found that everybodyhad gone away and done different
(17:01):
things.
And so that led to a path ofwow, this, we've, we had a bunch
of people in the room that wereacross a whole range of
cultures.
And we all interpreted what wehad agreed in different ways.
Hence then was born.
Cultural intelligence research.
And so there was research doneover 20 years until now.
(17:22):
And then so that, that's allthat stuff, you can go and get
trained in CQ and you can do anassessment and you can read the
research articles.
I think where you are comingfrom is.
We need to make it practical.
And so the Fellows program thatI'm involved in the goal of that
(17:42):
is to create a cohort ofindividuals around the world who
who know a lot about theresearch and the academic stuff,
but are focusing on thepracticalities of how cultural
intelligence can be a benefit inour niche areas.
(18:02):
So for me, CQ and safety and andit's taking it to a practical
level of, okay, so the researchsays this, what does it actually
look like in the real world in abusiness?
Which is, I think also what youare suggesting and what your
project and maybe some of theother things is all about.
Does that sound about right interms of what your commentary
was?
(18:23):
Yeah.
Vance (18:23):
Yeah.
I could, maybe I could elaborateon that.
From my view, if we had CQ asthe umbrella and we were worker
centric, so we'd have CQ as theumbrella in the middle as the
worker, and on the left handside is the supply.
And on the right hand side isthe demand.
So the supply is thepractitioners, is academia
(18:47):
coming in to support the workersand on the demand side are the
businesses, working across tothe workers, basically to meet
their business and legal duties.
There's a tendency because it'seasier to approach workers from
the supply side.
My view is that's failing.
And I think the data's showingthat.
(19:08):
So Me Mataara works from thedemand side.
I think from a CQ point of view.
It doesn't matter which side'scoming, but Me Mataara should
provide some evidence to supportCQ and that cohort that this is
why we collected theinformation.
This is the way the business hasthought about it, and this is
how they've used it, again I usethe term a serious consideration
(19:32):
when it comes to things like cq,and I understand that, my work's
only on the ethnic side ofculture.
There's a whole bunch of otheraspects of culture.
Yep.
Greg (19:43):
Yep.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I've mentioned that manytimes around just including all
of those different aspects ofdiversity and different
organizational cultures.
You can you can apply theconcept between, a milk station
in your part of the world to amilk station in Invercargill are
gonna have different culturesthat that using the CQ model,
(20:07):
you could you could apply thatto engaging with both of those
parties to try and get someeffective and useful outcomes.
The other thing that youmentioned was Kia Tupato and
that was obviously somethingthat sort of really got you on
the path of doing some of thiswork of integrating health and
safety into Māori culture, anysort of updates on where that's
(20:29):
at, what it's is, it is, it'sout there.
Obviously people are using it.
Where's that going?
Vance (20:35):
Ah, it resonates, it resonates with heaps of
different people in terms ofcaution versus safety.
So that's where it's, that'swhere it's positioned at the
moment.
Me Mataara uses technology toconfirm that it's, a legitimate
intervention in a workplace thatcan reduce injury claims for
(20:56):
that workforce.
You and I have spoken about,shown me signs and your story of
a lady on the escalator.
So it's there, it's happening.
My job is not, I think I've donea job of taking out of the
shadows and putting it on theagenda.
The next big step is just toconfirm it, and that's data,
videos of influencers supportingit.
(21:18):
So that's where we at.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg (21:20):
Yeah.
And so moving forward with MeMataara what's, what does the
next six months look like?
Vance (21:28):
We have to get our marketing branding onto
platforms and the wider socialmedia.
So we've started filmingdifferent influences.
So the idea is we get themarketing content of Me Mataara
online, so that warms up thecommunity to say something's
happening and they might show aninterest and then we are going
(21:50):
to decide on the online platformwe're gonna use again.
It might be circle.
So we get that up and running.
The Me Mataara worker app hasbeen basically almost at the
prototype stage by saferme andthanks saferme Clinton and the
crowd for helping with that.
And then we've openeddiscussions with who all have
(22:12):
agreed months ago to participateand so we're just working out.
The mechanics of that.
So#MeMataara the go to at thisstage and just watch this space
in terms of the social mediamessaging and, content we're
gonna be putting out..
I can say that confidently'causeI'll probably spend, gonna spend
(22:33):
a small mortgage on bloodygetting that stuff across the
line.
So I'm quite serious this timearound Greg.
Hey, I'll tell you what I foundout doing Me Mataara.
I found out some interestingstuff'cause I wanted to look at
Māori woman workers and atidbit.
Pharaohs, Egyptian, pharaohs,they wear wigs, eh, they wear
(22:53):
wigs.
You see them on, differentthings, pictures and stuff.
And the Wigs signify that thePharaoh, who is usually a male.
Has reached the status of awoman.
So the wigs represents a woman'slong hair because women in
Egyptian cultures and still areseen as the pinnacle of
(23:17):
intellect and I suppose youcould say cultural intelligence.
And I found that fascinating,especially when I look at Māori
women and how they're held inhigh esteem.
But, over time that perceptionhas changed somewhat.
So that's a little tidbit that Ifound and I like those little
tidbits.
'cause when you go to explainthings and reinforce your
(23:38):
messaging, you can use somethingfrom another culture to explain
why you are arguing this.
Yeah.
Greg (23:47):
Look, I think that perception of gender differences
in many cultures you might hearsimilar stories.
You've obviously highlightedthe, women in Māori culture.
And you see that.
In action on marae and variousother places and your story and
even middle Eastern women.
I've, I had I think I gave youthe connection to Dr.
(24:08):
Hend Zaki who runs a course onMuslim people living in Western
countries and her PhD wasparticularly on the experience
of Muslim people living in NewZealand and growing a life here.
And I guess the whole hijab andhead scarf discussion creates a
lot of tension across culturesand I just have heard so many
(24:31):
stories from the Middle Easternside of the story that, that,
their perception and their useand their acceptance of it is
totally different to how Westernpeople traditionally view it.
And similarly to the storyyou've told the regard in which
women are kept or held in Muslimculture is is probably not
(24:52):
something that Western peoplehear a lot about.
So I think, yeah, I think it'svery consistent and I guess our
job is as being, people that aretheoretically culturally
intelligent is justacknowledging that it's not to,
it's not to say it's good orit's bad, it's just to try and
understand it, listen to it andacknowledge that's that cultural
(25:15):
approach to whatever the subjectmight be.
Vance (25:19):
Yeah.
I think you're perfectly right.
Just getting the information outthere is more important at this
stage.
Me and just provides a moreserious, a serious lean towards
that information.
Greg (25:32):
Yeah.
So you're working on somemarketing is there anything that
the wider health and safetycommunity.
Can do, should do, has theopportunity to do in becoming
more knowledgeable about yourproject or involved in it or
contributing to it.
Vance (25:51):
Yeah, so keep an eye out for the#MeMataara as I'm only
person doing it at this stage.
Keep an eye out for the digitalplatform that we will put into
play later this month or nextmonth.
So that will provide theplatform for people too
participate, but moreimportantly, contribute.
They might make a short video,this is what I think about Me
(26:14):
Mataara.
Or they might not, it might notbe about Me Mataara, it might be
about cultural intelligence.
I might put something, a link toyour podcast on the platform.
Whereas health and safety,people just keep an eye out at
this stage and when things startto warm up take more of an
interest.
Yeah.
Greg (26:30):
And I guess you'll be you'll be front and center on
stage at next year's TRMAconference.
Will you be waving the MeMataara flag?
Vance (26:38):
Yeah.
There should be some somethingto talk about then.
You know what I mean?
So I don't wanna dopresentations about what ifs.
I want to give presentations ofthis.
This is what happened, goodstorytelling.
But I'm more interested inpresentations outside of where
people expect Me Mataara to bepresented so overseas.
(27:01):
Yeah.
And you encourage me to look atthose types of opportunities
before but I've gotta getthrough the work first.
Greg (27:06):
That's awesome.
Vance good to hear that thisthat this work is being done.
Look forward to following thejourney over the next the next
little while.
And good to have a korero andand really interesting to hear
what you've been up to for thelast little while.
Vance (27:21):
Thanks, Greg.
It's always nice talking withyou.
And about you.
I, I.
I really like the, your littlejourney you're on at the moment.
I know it's a limited window anda rarity in the scheme of things
enjoy it.
Enjoy it for every minute it'sworth.
Greg (27:38):
Thanks again for joining me in this episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional.
What a rich and thoughtprovoking korero with Vance
Walker, a returning guest and atrue thought leader in
integrating Māori culture withhealth and safety practices.
In today's episode, we exploredhow cultural intelligence can
(28:01):
evolve from an academic conceptinto a powerful data driven tool
for real world change,particularly through the Me
Mataara project.
Vance's work is pushingboundaries, not just in terms of
reducing injuries for Māoriworkers, but also in redefining
(28:21):
what it means to take cultureseriously in our profession.
Here are some of my takeawaysfrom the conversation.
Cultural intelligence is readyfor the real world.
Me Mataara is showing us how tomove beyond theory by connecting
cultural values contained ininitiatives like Kia Tupato and
(28:43):
Te Whare Tapa Whā withmeasurable workplace safety
outcomes.
Data is a new lever for culturalchange.
One of the biggest gaps Vanceidentified is the lack of hard
business data to supportcultural initiatives.
Me Mataara aims to fill that gapoffering evidence businesses can
(29:06):
use to build solid cases forcultural integration.
Worker centric change startswith leadership, engaging both
workers and leaders throughworkshops, storytelling and tech
is at the heart of the projectsuccess, and that includes using
(29:27):
platforms and voices thatresonate with younger and more
diverse audiences.
And finally, We all need tochallenge assumptions, whether
it's our view of culturalintelligence as soft, or our
limited understanding ofcultural dynamics across gender
and ethnicity.
(29:47):
Vance reminded us that lookingat things differently is a first
step towards doing thingsdifferently.
If this episode sparked anyideas or questions for you,
let's keep the conversationgoing.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn.
I'd love to hear your thoughts,and if you're enjoying the
podcast, please follow orsubscribe and share it with
(30:11):
someone who might find value inthe kaupapa.
Until next time, mā te wā.
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