April 28, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional, I speak with Emma Jordaan — cultural intelligence strategist, CEO of Infinite Consulting, host of The HR & CQ Show, and recently published author of Dubai Decoded. Emma brings over two decades of experience from across the UK, Europe, and the UAE to share practical insights on how cultural intelligence (CQ) transforms workplace safety and leadership in multicultural environments.
Our conversation dives deep into power distance, communication styles, and the psychological dynamics that affect trust, reporting, and risk perception, here are my key takeaways — especially in sectors like construction where safety is critical. Emma also shares reflections from her time in the Society of CQ Fellows.
1. Storytelling is a Cross-Cultural Safety Superpower
In multicultural settings, safety messages often get lost in translation — literally and culturally. Emma highlights how storytelling personalizes risk and transcends communication barriers. A compelling example: an engineer shared his lived experience of losing an eye to drive home PPE compliance, far more effectively than a rulebook ever could.
Lesson: Stories evoke empathy and resonate universally — especially when traditional authority-driven messaging fails.
2. “Yes” Doesn’t Always Mean Yes — Especially in High Power-Distance Cultures
Emma breaks down how cultures with hierarchical norms often foster indirect communication. Workers may agree outwardly with leadership to “save face” or avoid conflict, even when they disagree or don't understand. This creates dangerous blind spots in safety-critical environments.
Lesson: Leaders must dig deeper — ask more questions, read between the lines, and foster an environment where people feel safe enough to say “no.”
3. Language Matters — Simplicity, Clarity, and Translation Save Lives
In workplaces with dozens of nationalities, assuming everyone understands English the same way is risky. Emma recommends simplifying all safety communication — ditching jargon and fluff — and, where possible, translating briefings into employees’ native languages.
Lesson: Clear and inclusive communication reduces accidents and fosters trust.
4. Psychological Safety Requires Cultural Adaptation
Creating a “speak up” culture isn’t enough if the act of speaking up is culturally uncomfortable. Many workers, especially those on visas or in lower-status roles, fear consequences for being honest. Emma recommends anonymous reporting channels and culturally sensitive leadership to bridge that gap.
Lesson: Psychological safety is not one-size-fits-all — it must be designed with cultural dynamics in mind.
5. CQ Drive Is the First Step — and the Most Critical
Of the four capabilities in the CQ model (Drive, Knowledge, Strategy, Action), Emma emphasizes CQ Drive as foundational. Without the internal motivation to adapt, no amount of knowledge or strategy will translate into behavior change.
Lesson: Cultural intelligence starts with the desire to understand and flex — everything else builds from there.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this episode we head to theUAE and catch up with Emma
Jordaan who is a recognizedthought leader in cultural
intelligence and a distinguishedmember of the Society of CQ
(01:27):
Fellows.
As a top voice for culturalcompetence on LinkedIn, she has
been featured in prominentMiddle Eastern publications like
the Gulf Business Leaders andMiddle East Consultant, and has
also appeared on the local DubaiEye radio station.
With over 20 years of experienceleading teams and managing
(01:48):
projects across the UK, Europe,UAE and the GCC, Emma
specializes in culturalintelligence training, coaching
and assessments.
And as CEO of InfiniteConsulting in Dubai, she helps
leaders and organizationsnavigate diverse workplaces with
confidence.
(02:08):
Emma is also the host of the HRand CQ Show podcast, and is set
to release a book on CQ strategyshortly, offering practical
insights to help professionalsthrive in Dubai's multicultural
environment.
Emma.
Welcome to the show.
Emma (02:27):
Thank you for having me.
Greg (02:29):
Great to have you here.
So tell me, how does one getfrom the UK to end up with a
career in Dubai?
Emma (02:39):
Yeah, so I'm originally from the UK.
I spent about 20 years of mycareer working in the
construction industry as alearning and development
professional.
And the company that I wasworking for have sent me on
multiple trips across the worldbasically leading different
training projects, whether thatwas across continental Europe,
(03:00):
in Germany, Italy, Belgium,France and such like.
And then from there over to theMiddle East, initially in 2015
with the intention of setting upa training function for the
business that would oversee allof the training required in the
GCC area.
Greg (03:20):
Wow.
And and you got there and whatnever went back?
Emma (03:26):
Pretty much.
Yeah.
What obviously come from the UKwhere the weather, as isn't too
great.
And moved to a place that's justfull of sunshine pretty much
most days.
Yeah.
You can't blame a girl forwanting to stay there.
Greg (03:40):
Fair enough too.
Although it sounds like inmonths you have to spend all
your life inside with the aircon on full.
Emma (03:48):
I think it's just like living in the UK in reverse.
So in the UK we spend six monthsof the year inside.
'cause it's so cold with theheating on, and here we spend
six months of the year insidebecause it's too hot with the AC
on yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm not missing much.
Greg (04:03):
Fair enough.
So you made the transition froma construction background into
the work you do in culturalintelligence.
Firstly, what sparked that shiftand how has your past experience
shaped your perspective on CQ inthose high risk type sectors?
Emma (04:24):
What sparked the interest was just as I'd alluded to that
I'd spent lots of time workingoverseas in in working on
different projects, workingamongst different cultures.
I actually left the UK at theage of 18.
To work overseas.
'cause I was just curious about,what the rest of the world would
look like.
But then that exposurethroughout the rest of my career
(04:45):
just really fascinated me.
And I wanted to start up my ownbusiness in learning and
development.
And it felt right to, to putsomething that I was interested
in and passionate about into theclassroom because, the, there's,
nothing better than, doing a jobthat you actually really enjoy.
And I really enjoy, talkingabout culture advancing people's
(05:08):
understanding about culture.
And so that was the first stepstone into setting up my
organization.
Greg (05:14):
And I guess just moving on, on from that, your past
experiences in terms of theperspectives that you have about
CQ in a sector like constructionin Dubai or in the UK where you
I guess, spent a lot of time aswell?
Emma (05:33):
Yeah, culture impacts everything in the workplace from
safety communicationproductivity, and I've got,
multiple examples from here inthe Middle East where culture
really, the way that things weredone or the, issues that might
have been faced throughmisunderstandings and
miscommunications.
(05:53):
Where an employee says yes, butthey really mean no.
Greg (05:57):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I guess the, I dunno howmany of our listeners are
familiar with the with the Dubaienvironment.
Pretty multicultural.
I believe there's somewhere inthe vicinity of 200 different
cultures that potentially workThere is that about right.
Emma (06:12):
Yeah expats make up about 92% of the population in the
UAE.
The large majority of peoplecome from different places
around the world, and that meansthat we are bringing together a
multitude of differentnationalities in the same, in
the same workplace.
One of my clients has 86different nationalities working,
(06:32):
in the same space within theUAE.
So you can see that as thisleader or somebody that's
involved in safety has a realjob on their hands to try and
make sure that everybody'sworking in a, streamlined to
one, one view of the way that wedo things,
Greg (06:49):
some description maybe last year with a guy who he was
working on a, the constructionof a, I think it was a power
plant in Abu Dhabi.
And similar story said, therewas 50 different nationalities
on, the site.
And just having to make surethat they navigated their way
around appropriatecommunication.
With that mixture of people wassomething that took up a lot of
(07:12):
time.
And I suppose in those safetycritical environments and we
talk construction and and thelike communication and trust
essential.
Have you seen how culturalintelligence can influence the
effectiveness of safetyleadership?
Or that frontline engagement indiverse teams how does that come
(07:33):
together in your experience?
Emma (07:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think that, people perceiverisk and authority quite
differently across cultures.
And so that impacts the way thatpeople choose to communicate and
the way that they choose tobuild trust.
And I think safety leaders areresponsible for identifying
(07:58):
those cultural differences andthinking about the way that they
can adapt their communicationstyle to make sure that the
message is received and one ofthe examples that I can give of
that is through storytelling.
So rather than, saying toeverybody this is the way that
you've gotta do this, andmandating it from the front and
(08:19):
not really explaining tooclearly why we are doing the
doing it this way or why we'restipulating that you must do it
this way and insteadstorytelling the safety message.
So I saw that done really wellin my old organization.
The regional and engineeringmanager was trying to hammer
home the importance of wearingsafety goggles in the workplace
while they were using equipment.
(08:42):
And he brought somebody in who'dactually lost their eye through
not wearing the correct safetyequipment.
And he got this person to,retell their story of how the
accident had happened and theimpact that it's had on them.
Having, lost an eye.
And that I think really hammeredhome and the importance of
(09:02):
wearing goggles through themessage of telling a story of
somebody's personal lifeexperiences.
I was gonna say through the eyesof somebody else, but I don't
think that's probablyappropriate in terms of the
story.
So the other person's lifeexperiences.
Greg (09:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess with the diversitythat you experience in Dubai one
of the other areas that therecould be a challenge is the
whole power distance thing ofpeople not wanting to embarrass
the boss, wanting to make surethat they just appear that yes
boss, no boss, whatever.
Is that something that's quitecommon on any, not, doesn't have
(09:40):
to be construction, but in anyworkplace in that part of world.
Emma (09:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
So if we think about thedemographic of the people that
are here in Dubai there, there'sabout 70% that would typically
align, not all, but typicallyalign to a more hierarchical
culture, indirect communicativestyle, which basically means
that, if the boss has said thatthis is how you've gotta do
something, we're just gonna sayyes.
(10:05):
Because we want to appease theboss.
And we, it's not our role tochallenge the boss.
And I, again, I had an exampleof that where the team.
I'd asked the team that I wasmanaging to take a particular
approach on something and itlater transpired that we perhaps
should have taken a differentapproach.
And when I discussed that withthe team the answer was we did
(10:26):
it, we did it that way becausethat's the way you told us to do
it.
It came, it became evident thatthey thought there was another
way that we should have donethings, but they didn't feel the
freedom to speak up and voicethat with me, and that was quite
early on in my career and mytime in the UAE.
And it's through those sort ofexperiences where I then started
to realize that actually Ineeded to take quite a different
(10:49):
approach in the way that I choseto communicate to my team.
And, one of my tips is oftenjust ask more questions.
If somebody's giving you a yeswhen they mean no, you can
decipher that usually by askingmore questions around the answer
that they've given to readbetween the lines and read
(11:10):
what's not being said so thatyou can then determine how
actually, they mean no.
And then you can then move onfrom there.
Greg (11:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess those sorts ofthings very similar here.
And that's where a lot of thediscussion heads is, and as
you've said, storytelling,asking questions, being curious
all of those sorts of things,help in making sure A, that we
understand and b, that we'vethat the person or people that
we're dealing with alsounderstand what it is we are
(11:38):
trying to achieve.
There's that there's thatcultural norm in some parts of
the world of saving face.
where, it's not right to, to getthe boss in trouble effectively
is is really what that boilsdown to.
Is that something that I guessit's a little bit connected,
isn't it?
Just say yes to the boss all thetime therefore we are not gonna
(11:59):
embarrass him.
Is that something that's presentin that part of the world as
well?
Emma (12:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Saving face is definitelysomething that's for example,
ingrained in the local Emiraticulture and there wouldn't,
there wouldn't be that desire ofwanting to embarrass either the
other person or even oneself.
There's always that desire tokeep a level of harmony within a
different, within the differentconversations that you're
having.
So through that then means.
(12:23):
There's a level of indirectcommunication of, we won't
actually say what we really meanor what we're really thinking
because we want to protect theway that I'm perceived or the
way that the other person isperceived amongst others.
So when those sort of situationsoccur, it might be that there
has to be a conversation thattakes place, privately in a
(12:45):
one-on-one situation so that itpreserves that person's, that,
the way that person's beingperceived.
Greg (12:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like you've given us awhole bunch of stuff already and
and the next question is hasreally directed it at any
advice, but and keeping in mindthat you're not a safety
professional, although you'vebeen exposed to the safety
sector, I guess in, in a lot ofthe work that you've done.
But from those experiences.
(13:12):
Other than the storytelling andthe curiosity is there anything
else that organizations couldtake on board to integrate some
of this cultural intelligencework into their safety systems?
Emma (13:28):
Yeah especially somewhere Dubai where it is so
multicultural, I I thinkthere's, there's something to be
said in terms of thinking aboutthe internal communications that
you send out.
If you've got safety briefings,they need to be very clear and
explicit so that if somebody isperhaps, reading something in
(13:48):
English and it's not their firstlanguage, the there is, there's
no cause for concern in terms ofwhether what's being, what's
been written is gonna bemisinterpreted.
Don't fluff things up.
Use simple language that can beunderstood by people that are
using English as a secondlanguage.
But my second point to thatspecifically would be, if you've
got the resources to dotranslate your safety bulletins
(14:11):
and briefings into the multipledifferent languages that you've
got so that people can readtheir safety bulletin in their
home, in their own nativelanguage.
And again, that then reduces thecause for concerns around
whether there's miscommunicationin the message.
The other thing would be, Ithink a lot of people, talk
about how we can drive a speakup culture.
(14:32):
But I still think that we aremissing the mark in thinking
about, that just isn't somethingthat comes naturally to some
people.
Even if you really try to createa psychologically safe space
where people feel the freedom tospeak up, it's just not their
natural orientation to do that.
And so what are the ways that wecan enable people to speak up
without, without having theconcerns of the repercussions if
(14:53):
they're to do that.
So things like can you createanonymous safety reporting,
methods that enable people toreport issues, safety issues
that they see anonymously, sothat they know that yes they've
done what's expected of them.
They've brought it to people'sattention, but they've been able
to do that with the freedom ofknowing that they're doing it
anonymously and so there's norepercussions for them.
(15:15):
Because sometimes they mightneed to report somebody that's
more senior than them, or, or adecision that's been made Yeah.
By a senior person that theydon't feel is safe, but they
don't feel the freedom to reportthat unless it's done
anonymously, because they'reworried about the repercussions
of, reporting somebody moresenior than them.
Greg (15:34):
It's something that, that is an area that we have to focus
on here in New Zealand.
We've got a large percentage ofmigrant workers that come in
particularly in construction,healthcare and other sectors.
And one of the perceptions isthat there's a lack of reporting
for fear of a getting in troubleand then b, if it's bad enough,
(15:56):
if I've had an incident or I'vebroken something or done
something that, that maybeshouldn't have been done that
potentially my visa is at riskand I get turfed outta the
country.
Is, would that be somethingthat, that theoretically could
occur in Dubai as well?
Emma (16:14):
So obviously there are laws around the ability just to,
release somebody from theorganization.
But the concern would definitelybe there from the employee's
point of view of does, are thecompany gonna just get rid of me
if if I've spoken up when Ishouldn't have done.
And yeah, everybody everybodythat's here, those 92% of people
that are here as expats are allhere on a visa, are all here
(16:36):
reliant on their employer'ssponsorship, and and so there is
always that concern that ifyou've put a, a foot wrong that
you might be at risk of losingyour visa.
But that's not necessarily tosay that there's truth in that.
But but I can see the pointyou're making is, would that
then hinder somebody fromfeeling comfortable for speaking
up then?
I would argue yes.
There is an element of whichthat would exist in this region.
Greg (16:58):
Absolutely.
Having said that my recent tripto Dubai was one of the things I
did learn is that Dubai is avery welcoming country,
anybody's welcome to, to turnup.
And some of us are lucky that wedon't have to get visas and
others or for, certainly forshort periods of time anyway.
And I guess others have to gothrough that process.
But yeah, it was it was a greatexperience and and learned a lot
(17:22):
from that that short time that Iwas up there a few months ago.
I guess many of my colleagues assafety professionals we are
trained in compliance.
A bit of a dirty word, but we'replaying trained in compliance
and technical risk.
And the technical aspects of ourjob.
But my observations globallyreally would be that cultural
(17:47):
nuance is not part of the safetycurriculum.
What advice would you give tosomebody in safety who wants to
strengthen their ownunderstanding and application of
cultural intelligence.
Emma (18:03):
Yeah.
It's something I see all thetime living in a, an expat
environment where people come infrom different countries, very
technically competent, but havehad no experience of, maybe
working with people of differentcultures.
And it, I think people justthink it's.
It will all just fall intoplace.
And then maybe quite quicklythey realize that they've been a
(18:25):
little bit naive to thinkingthat they would just be able to
work with people from differentcultures without any sort of
deeper thought into what, whatthat might look like.
So I think for me not just insafety, but in, in all
industries, globalization isn'tslowing down at any pace.
Sure.
I think it's something that'skey for everybody really.
Which is to, to get.
(18:45):
Cultural intelligence trainingto really start to understand
beyond cultural awareness.
What can you do to be moreeffective when you're working
with people from differentcultures?
CQ training would be my firstrecommendation, but that would
then help you to start to becomemore aware of different cultural
values so that when you are indifferent settings, it's
(19:09):
different safety settings withinthe workplace, you can then
start to, see how differentcultures perhaps perceive risk.
Do they perceive risk to atthis, to the same level as
yourself or even, on a widerscale to the same level that of
the organization are theyaligned with the safety values
of the organization?
(19:29):
And you can determine this basedon, asking questions safety
questions, observe the answersthat people give you.
Think about how you can potpotentially adapt your
communication style so that yoursafety messages are received in
a way that they prefer to becommunicated to.
(19:49):
I think there's lots of thingsthat, like I said earlier,
thinking about, how are youenabling people to report safety
issues?
So there's lots of things thatwe would be thinking about, but
we are not naturally inclined tothink about, safety perhaps in
those ways, unless we've firstgone out of our way to educate
ourself on, how do differentcultures perceive safety and
(20:12):
risk.
And you can only do that throughstarting to develop your
cultural intelligence.
Greg (20:18):
Yeah, and I think certainly it's been my
experience.
I've been talking about culturalintelligence for a few years and
locally here my observationearly on, and I think this
hasn't changed a lot, maybe alittle bit, but not a lot.
We use the term culturalintelligence, people nod.
And go, yeah, I know what thatis.
(20:38):
And then, if you dig a littlebit deeper what they're
describing in terms of theirknowledge is, oh yeah, I know
some stuff about that particularculture's values and norms.
And it's.
I guess it's culturalcompetency, it's cultural
knowledge, it's not culturalintelligence.
And again, I dunno if that'sbeen your experience of when
start talking about this.
(20:58):
Is that a similar understandingthat you get from the people
that you work with or speakingto?
'cause you speak quite a bit interms of conferences and events.
Is that the feeling that you getfrom people?
Emma (21:11):
Yeah, so I think especially people that have been
in the region for a number ofyears, they've certainly got
cultural awareness becausethey've been working with
colleagues from all differentcountries and cultures for a
long time now.
But it doesn't necessarily meanthat they have cultural
intelligence.
The the difference with culturalintelligence is, and am I now
with that cultural awareness,willing to think about how I
(21:32):
need to adapt my approach sothat I can be more effective in
those cultural interactions.
I.
So somebody with just culturalawareness is somebody that says,
yes, I know about that culture,but this is how I am and this is
how I'm gonna carry on working.
And they and there's almost anexpectation that the other
person is gonna flex to me.
Whereas somebody with culturalintelligence says, ah, okay,
(21:53):
this person operates in adifferent way to me.
They communicate differently.
They perceive risk in adifferent way.
They understand, authority in adifferent way.
And so with that understanding,my approach now with these, with
this team of people is gonnalook slightly different so that
I can maximize that interactionthat I have with them and get
the most out of my team.
If you want to be a good manageryou need a team that trusts you.
(22:16):
And so I think it's importantthat you think about, how is
trust built across differentcultures?
In some cultures it's builtbased on, our competence, what
our CV says, how skilled we are,whereas in other cultures, it's
built on relationship In Dubaispecifically, most of the people
that operate here build trust onthe relationship.
(22:37):
And as a safety leader, how areyou investing time in building
those relationships with thepeople that report to you so
that if they did want to come toyou with any concerns, that they
feel that you know that it'sgonna be received well from your
side.
Greg (22:53):
You mentioned something during that response about yeah,
I know something about culture,but this is me.
This is how I'm gonna work.
And our combined mentor DaveLivermore I think wrote
something a couple of months agoabout in, in a in a diverse
situation, who has aresponsibility to adapt.
Yeah.
And the answer.
There's somewhat twofold, butthere's probably really only one
(23:16):
right answer.
And the first answer was ifyou're in a homogenous
situation, then it's whoever'sgot the highest level of
cultural intelligence.
I'm not sure how manyhomogenous, real homogenous
situations actually exist in theworld anymore.
But the more, I guess the moreappropriate answer is whoever
(23:36):
has got the most power in.
Whatever that situation mightbe.
And your perceived power couldchange depending on which
particular room you're in atthat particular moment in time,
depending based on who the otherparticipants are.
So I thought that was quite a, Iguess a useful scenario to, to
(23:57):
consider is if you feel thatyou've got the most power in the
room, then it's up to you tochange.
Emma (24:04):
Agreed.
And so that's the differencebetween looking at the
horizontal lines of culturewhere we've been talking about
authority and communication andinstead looking at the vertical
line of.
Of, power dynamics that, wheredo we sit in terms of our social
economic position on that line?
Whether that's because of ouragenda, whether that's because
(24:26):
of our job title.
So if you are perceived to bethe person with the most amount
of authority or power in theroom it might not be as I say,
because of job title, but it'syour responsibility to think
about how you can adapt.
Which is an interesting one whenyou're a female in the
construction industry.
Greg (24:46):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I just wanna, while we weretalking about Dave Livermore
maybe I'll just divert quicklyand talk about in the intro I
mentioned that you were part ofthe Society of CQ Fellows.
And you went through thatprocess last year.
2024.
It's the process that I'm goingthrough this year in 2025.
(25:07):
Just really keen to hear acouple of snippets of your
experience of that program.
Emma (25:14):
Sure.
So for me, I found the programfantastic.
It was a great way to, interactwith people from different
cultures on a topic that youknow, on a topic of culture.
So in the cohort that I was partof we had people from Japan the
Philippines, Singapore, Americacontinental Europe UK.
(25:38):
So it was a real mix ofdifferent people with different
perspectives because evensomething like cultural
intelligence where we talk aboutculture, we need to also think
about how is that perceived fromdifferent cultural perspectives
as well.
So it was great.
It was great to, hear differentpeople's views on that across
the room and, share ourdifferent research and insights
(26:01):
with one another and really seehow we can come together and
support one another in buildinglots of different cq products or
services that will just help tocontinue to leverage that CQ is
a, an important skill for thefuture it's not one to be
undermined really orundervalued.
I think it's something that'sover time is going to gain great
(26:22):
attraction.
But I also think that it wasfantastic to have the
opportunity to have one-to-oneswith David as well.
He's a guy that I look up toreal source of intellect
knowledge about culturalintelligence and so it was
fantastic to have theopportunity to have dedicated
time with him as well.
Greg (26:39):
Yep, absolutely.
And, I think one of the thingsthat he reflected just a few
weeks ago actually at our firstretreat was the concept of the,
or the reason for bringing thesecohorts together.
And, there's been, I think weare the third.
We might be the third groupthat's gone through.
And maybe there's a few more in,in coming years.
(27:01):
It's really about takingcultural intelligence from being
this theoretical academicconstruct, which it's been for
20 years while the research hasbeen carried out and having
people around the world who arethen able to take that theory
and put it into practice intheir own specific areas of
(27:24):
interest and their own sort ofniche focus areas.
Yeah, it's about making itcreating the practical side of
it and really trying to, I guessprove the theory.
So it was it's an outstandingexperience to go through that
group.
Emma (27:37):
Yeah.
As you say that it's, thecultural intelligence model is
very much an academictheoretical model, but the fact
that we can now apply it intodifferent industry sectors based
on different people's technicalexpertise that were in those
different cohorts whilst at thesame time they're all coming
from different countries is areally great way to champion
(27:58):
that message of CQ around theworld.
Greg (28:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've got one question or pointof discussion to go and I don't
know, it might be we, you'vegiven us so much already in
terms of recommendations andadvice.
And I guess the last question isif you could embed one CQ skill
into every safety professional'stoolkit, what would that be?
(28:23):
And why?
Emma (28:25):
The culture intelligence model has the four, four
capabilities, CQ drive, which isyour motivation, CQ knowledge,
which is your knowledge you'vegot CQ strategy, which is how
you adapt and CQ action, how youput that into practice.
So for me, it has to be thatfirst one, CQ drive.
You have to have that initialmotivation to actually want to
(28:45):
make a difference, to actuallywant to change, to be
open-minded to the idea ofactually, there's a different
perspective out there.
And so for me it's about CQdrive that motivation to, to
want to consider differentperspectives.
And then, and that naturallythen leads into the other three.
Greg (29:07):
Yeah, it's interesting when you go through the CQ
training, I think they had somevideos of people and they, they
asked them all.
What's the most important bit?
Of course, they had people therethat would, say, oh, CQ drive or
knowledge or strategy or actionwas for them the most important.
But it for me it almost, I.
(29:29):
Leads, you start with drive andit's almost a natural
progression to go through thosefour from drive to knowledge, to
strategy to behavior.
I guess you could argue thataction and strategy.
Are together because you knowthat, that bit about adaptation.
How do you respond in the momentis all about your speech and
(29:53):
your body language and how youtalk.
So those two almost maybe becomepart of one.
But yeah, look I agree.
You've gotta wanna do it.
And you've gotta see the valuein it.
And you've gotta have as the, Iguess the framework talks about
having that confidence to to putyourself into an unfamiliar
(30:13):
environment with the purposes oftrying to understand other
perspectives.
And so probably unsurprisingly,we might be on the same path or
same track, the same opinions onthat.
It's been lovely to speak to youagain and I, yeah, your book is
that, how's that progressing?
Emma (30:35):
So it's with the authorities here in the UAE
awaiting a permit so that it canbe published.
So you just have to watch thisspace.
Greg (30:43):
Okay.
Excellent.
Oh I'm sure it'll be all overLinkedIn when that comes out and
we'll be sharing it and and andgetting it out there for you.
And the podcast reminds me, it'scalled the CQ and the HR
podcast.
It's the
Emma (30:55):
HR and CQ show.
Greg (30:58):
Yes.
So if people, yes.
And your colleague.
Emma (31:01):
Yeah, my PO colleague Sarah Brooks.
So if people follow me onLinkedIn they'll be able to find
the link for the podcast showfrom there.
Greg (31:09):
Yeah, sure.
And we can put a a link intothat on the show notes.
And as I say, we'll we'll bangthe drum when the book comes out
as well.
Thank you very much.
Hey lovely to to speak to youagain.
And yeah, look forward to tocatching up again in in the not
too distant future and justthanks so much for spending some
time with us.
Emma (31:28):
Thanks so much for having me.
Thanks, Greg.
Greg (31:34):
Didn't our conversation dive deep into power distance,
communication styles, and thepsychological dynamics that
affect trust reporting and riskperception?
Here are my key takeaways.
Firstly, storytelling is a crosscultural safety, superpower.
(31:55):
In multicultural settings,safety messages often get lost
in translation, literally andculturally, Emma highlights how
storytelling personalizes riskand transcends communication
barriers.
There's a lesson here thatstories evoke empathy and
resonate universally, especiallywhen traditional authority
(32:18):
driven messaging fails.
My second key takeaway yes,doesn't always mean yes,
especially in high powerdistance cultures.
Emma breaks down how cultureswith hierarchical norms often
foster indirect communication.
Workers may agree outwardly withleadership to save face or avoid
(32:42):
conflict even when they disagreeor don't understand.
This creates dangerous blindspots in safety critical
environments.
The lesson here is leaders needto dig deeper, ask more
questions, read between thelines and foster an environment
where people feel safe enough tosay no.
(33:07):
My third takeaway languagematters.
Simplicity, clarity, andtranslation saves lives in
workplaces with dozens ofnationalities, assuming everyone
understands English the same wayis risky.
Emma recommends simplificationof all safety, communication,
(33:27):
ditching jargon and fluff, andwhere possible translating
briefings into employees nativelanguages.
The lesson clear and inclusivecommunication reduces accidents
and fosters trust.
My fourth takeaway,psychological safety requires
(33:48):
cultural adaptation.
Creating a speak up cultureisn't enough if the act of
speaking up is culturallyuncomfortable, many workers,
especially those on visas or inlow status roles, fear
consequences for being honest.
Emma recommends anonymousreporting channels and
(34:10):
culturally sensitive leadershipto bridge that gap.
The lesson, psychological safetyis not one size fits all, it
must be designed with culturaldynamics in mind.
And finally, CQ Drive is thefirst step and the most critical
(34:30):
of the four capabilities in theCQ model, drive knowledge,
strategy, action, emmaemphasizes CQ Drive as
foundational.
Without the internal motivationto adapt, no amount of knowledge
or strategy will translate intobehavior change.
(34:50):
In our final lesson, culturalintelligence starts with a
desire to understand and flex.
Everything else builds fromthere.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
(35:13):
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
(35:34):
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:20):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:41):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:05):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
So this episode we head to theUAE and catch up with Emma
Jordaan who is a recognizedthought leader in cultural
intelligence and a distinguishedmember of the Society of CQ
(01:27):
Fellows.
As a top voice for culturalcompetence on LinkedIn, she has
been featured in prominentMiddle Eastern publications like
the Gulf Business Leaders andMiddle East Consultant, and has
also appeared on the local DubaiEye radio station.
With over 20 years of experienceleading teams and managing
(01:48):
projects across the UK, Europe,UAE and the GCC, Emma
specializes in culturalintelligence training, coaching
and assessments.
And as CEO of InfiniteConsulting in Dubai, she helps
leaders and organizationsnavigate diverse workplaces with
confidence.
(02:08):
Emma is also the host of the HRand CQ Show podcast, and is set
to release a book on CQ strategyshortly, offering practical
insights to help professionalsthrive in Dubai's multicultural
environment.
Emma.
Welcome to the show.
Emma (02:27):
Thank you for having me.
Greg (02:29):
Great to have you here.
So tell me, how does one getfrom the UK to end up with a
career in Dubai?
Emma (02:39):
Yeah, so I'm originally from the UK.
I spent about 20 years of mycareer working in the
construction industry as alearning and development
professional.
And the company that I wasworking for have sent me on
multiple trips across the worldbasically leading different
training projects, whether thatwas across continental Europe,
(03:00):
in Germany, Italy, Belgium,France and such like.
And then from there over to theMiddle East, initially in 2015
with the intention of setting upa training function for the
business that would oversee allof the training required in the
GCC area.
Greg (03:20):
Wow.
And and you got there and whatnever went back?
Emma (03:26):
Pretty much.
Yeah.
What obviously come from the UKwhere the weather, as isn't too
great.
And moved to a place that's justfull of sunshine pretty much
most days.
Yeah.
You can't blame a girl forwanting to stay there.
Greg (03:40):
Fair enough too.
Although it sounds like inmonths you have to spend all
your life inside with the aircon on full.
Emma (03:48):
I think it's just like living in the UK in reverse.
So in the UK we spend six monthsof the year inside.
'cause it's so cold with theheating on, and here we spend
six months of the year insidebecause it's too hot with the AC
on yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm not missing much.
Greg (04:03):
Fair enough.
So you made the transition froma construction background into
the work you do in culturalintelligence.
Firstly, what sparked that shiftand how has your past experience
shaped your perspective on CQ inthose high risk type sectors?
Emma (04:24):
What sparked the interest was just as I'd alluded to that
I'd spent lots of time workingoverseas in in working on
different projects, workingamongst different cultures.
I actually left the UK at theage of 18.
To work overseas.
'cause I was just curious about,what the rest of the world would
look like.
But then that exposurethroughout the rest of my career
(04:45):
just really fascinated me.
And I wanted to start up my ownbusiness in learning and
development.
And it felt right to, to putsomething that I was interested
in and passionate about into theclassroom because, the, there's,
nothing better than, doing a jobthat you actually really enjoy.
And I really enjoy, talkingabout culture advancing people's
(05:08):
understanding about culture.
And so that was the first stepstone into setting up my
organization.
Greg (05:14):
And I guess just moving on, on from that, your past
experiences in terms of theperspectives that you have about
CQ in a sector like constructionin Dubai or in the UK where you
I guess, spent a lot of time aswell?
Emma (05:33):
Yeah, culture impacts everything in the workplace from
safety communicationproductivity, and I've got,
multiple examples from here inthe Middle East where culture
really, the way that things weredone or the, issues that might
have been faced throughmisunderstandings and
miscommunications.
(05:53):
Where an employee says yes, butthey really mean no.
Greg (05:57):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I guess the, I dunno howmany of our listeners are
familiar with the with the Dubaienvironment.
Pretty multicultural.
I believe there's somewhere inthe vicinity of 200 different
cultures that potentially workThere is that about right.
Emma (06:12):
Yeah expats make up about 92% of the population in the
UAE.
The large majority of peoplecome from different places
around the world, and that meansthat we are bringing together a
multitude of differentnationalities in the same, in
the same workplace.
One of my clients has 86different nationalities working,
(06:32):
in the same space within theUAE.
So you can see that as thisleader or somebody that's
involved in safety has a realjob on their hands to try and
make sure that everybody'sworking in a, streamlined to
one, one view of the way that wedo things,
Greg (06:49):
some description maybe last year with a guy who he was
working on a, the constructionof a, I think it was a power
plant in Abu Dhabi.
And similar story said, therewas 50 different nationalities
on, the site.
And just having to make surethat they navigated their way
around appropriatecommunication.
With that mixture of people wassomething that took up a lot of
(07:12):
time.
And I suppose in those safetycritical environments and we
talk construction and and thelike communication and trust
essential.
Have you seen how culturalintelligence can influence the
effectiveness of safetyleadership?
Or that frontline engagement indiverse teams how does that come
(07:33):
together in your experience?
Emma (07:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think that, people perceiverisk and authority quite
differently across cultures.
And so that impacts the way thatpeople choose to communicate and
the way that they choose tobuild trust.
And I think safety leaders areresponsible for identifying
(07:58):
those cultural differences andthinking about the way that they
can adapt their communicationstyle to make sure that the
message is received and one ofthe examples that I can give of
that is through storytelling.
So rather than, saying toeverybody this is the way that
you've gotta do this, andmandating it from the front and
(08:19):
not really explaining tooclearly why we are doing the
doing it this way or why we'restipulating that you must do it
this way and insteadstorytelling the safety message.
So I saw that done really wellin my old organization.
The regional and engineeringmanager was trying to hammer
home the importance of wearingsafety goggles in the workplace
while they were using equipment.
(08:42):
And he brought somebody in who'dactually lost their eye through
not wearing the correct safetyequipment.
And he got this person to,retell their story of how the
accident had happened and theimpact that it's had on them.
Having, lost an eye.
And that I think really hammeredhome and the importance of
(09:02):
wearing goggles through themessage of telling a story of
somebody's personal lifeexperiences.
I was gonna say through the eyesof somebody else, but I don't
think that's probablyappropriate in terms of the
story.
So the other person's lifeexperiences.
Greg (09:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess with the diversitythat you experience in Dubai one
of the other areas that therecould be a challenge is the
whole power distance thing ofpeople not wanting to embarrass
the boss, wanting to make surethat they just appear that yes
boss, no boss, whatever.
Is that something that's quitecommon on any, not, doesn't have
(09:40):
to be construction, but in anyworkplace in that part of world.
Emma (09:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
So if we think about thedemographic of the people that
are here in Dubai there, there'sabout 70% that would typically
align, not all, but typicallyalign to a more hierarchical
culture, indirect communicativestyle, which basically means
that, if the boss has said thatthis is how you've gotta do
something, we're just gonna sayyes.
(10:05):
Because we want to appease theboss.
And we, it's not our role tochallenge the boss.
And I, again, I had an exampleof that where the team.
I'd asked the team that I wasmanaging to take a particular
approach on something and itlater transpired that we perhaps
should have taken a differentapproach.
And when I discussed that withthe team the answer was we did
(10:26):
it, we did it that way becausethat's the way you told us to do
it.
It came, it became evident thatthey thought there was another
way that we should have donethings, but they didn't feel the
freedom to speak up and voicethat with me, and that was quite
early on in my career and mytime in the UAE.
And it's through those sort ofexperiences where I then started
to realize that actually Ineeded to take quite a different
(10:49):
approach in the way that I choseto communicate to my team.
And, one of my tips is oftenjust ask more questions.
If somebody's giving you a yeswhen they mean no, you can
decipher that usually by askingmore questions around the answer
that they've given to readbetween the lines and read
(11:10):
what's not being said so thatyou can then determine how
actually, they mean no.
And then you can then move onfrom there.
Greg (11:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess those sorts ofthings very similar here.
And that's where a lot of thediscussion heads is, and as
you've said, storytelling,asking questions, being curious
all of those sorts of things,help in making sure A, that we
understand and b, that we'vethat the person or people that
we're dealing with alsounderstand what it is we are
(11:38):
trying to achieve.
There's that there's thatcultural norm in some parts of
the world of saving face.
where, it's not right to, to getthe boss in trouble effectively
is is really what that boilsdown to.
Is that something that I guessit's a little bit connected,
isn't it?
Just say yes to the boss all thetime therefore we are not gonna
(11:59):
embarrass him.
Is that something that's presentin that part of the world as
well?
Emma (12:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Saving face is definitelysomething that's for example,
ingrained in the local Emiraticulture and there wouldn't,
there wouldn't be that desire ofwanting to embarrass either the
other person or even oneself.
There's always that desire tokeep a level of harmony within a
different, within the differentconversations that you're
having.
So through that then means.
(12:23):
There's a level of indirectcommunication of, we won't
actually say what we really meanor what we're really thinking
because we want to protect theway that I'm perceived or the
way that the other person isperceived amongst others.
So when those sort of situationsoccur, it might be that there
has to be a conversation thattakes place, privately in a
(12:45):
one-on-one situation so that itpreserves that person's, that,
the way that person's beingperceived.
Greg (12:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like you've given us awhole bunch of stuff already and
and the next question is hasreally directed it at any
advice, but and keeping in mindthat you're not a safety
professional, although you'vebeen exposed to the safety
sector, I guess in, in a lot ofthe work that you've done.
But from those experiences.
(13:12):
Other than the storytelling andthe curiosity is there anything
else that organizations couldtake on board to integrate some
of this cultural intelligencework into their safety systems?
Emma (13:28):
Yeah especially somewhere Dubai where it is so
multicultural, I I thinkthere's, there's something to be
said in terms of thinking aboutthe internal communications that
you send out.
If you've got safety briefings,they need to be very clear and
explicit so that if somebody isperhaps, reading something in
(13:48):
English and it's not their firstlanguage, the there is, there's
no cause for concern in terms ofwhether what's being, what's
been written is gonna bemisinterpreted.
Don't fluff things up.
Use simple language that can beunderstood by people that are
using English as a secondlanguage.
But my second point to thatspecifically would be, if you've
got the resources to dotranslate your safety bulletins
(14:11):
and briefings into the multipledifferent languages that you've
got so that people can readtheir safety bulletin in their
home, in their own nativelanguage.
And again, that then reduces thecause for concerns around
whether there's miscommunicationin the message.
The other thing would be, Ithink a lot of people, talk
about how we can drive a speakup culture.
(14:32):
But I still think that we aremissing the mark in thinking
about, that just isn't somethingthat comes naturally to some
people.
Even if you really try to createa psychologically safe space
where people feel the freedom tospeak up, it's just not their
natural orientation to do that.
And so what are the ways that wecan enable people to speak up
without, without having theconcerns of the repercussions if
(14:53):
they're to do that.
So things like can you createanonymous safety reporting,
methods that enable people toreport issues, safety issues
that they see anonymously, sothat they know that yes they've
done what's expected of them.
They've brought it to people'sattention, but they've been able
to do that with the freedom ofknowing that they're doing it
anonymously and so there's norepercussions for them.
(15:15):
Because sometimes they mightneed to report somebody that's
more senior than them, or, or adecision that's been made Yeah.
By a senior person that theydon't feel is safe, but they
don't feel the freedom to reportthat unless it's done
anonymously, because they'reworried about the repercussions
of, reporting somebody moresenior than them.
Greg (15:34):
It's something that, that is an area that we have to focus
on here in New Zealand.
We've got a large percentage ofmigrant workers that come in
particularly in construction,healthcare and other sectors.
And one of the perceptions isthat there's a lack of reporting
for fear of a getting in troubleand then b, if it's bad enough,
(15:56):
if I've had an incident or I'vebroken something or done
something that, that maybeshouldn't have been done that
potentially my visa is at riskand I get turfed outta the
country.
Is, would that be somethingthat, that theoretically could
occur in Dubai as well?
Emma (16:14):
So obviously there are laws around the ability just to,
release somebody from theorganization.
But the concern would definitelybe there from the employee's
point of view of does, are thecompany gonna just get rid of me
if if I've spoken up when Ishouldn't have done.
And yeah, everybody everybodythat's here, those 92% of people
that are here as expats are allhere on a visa, are all here
(16:36):
reliant on their employer'ssponsorship, and and so there is
always that concern that ifyou've put a, a foot wrong that
you might be at risk of losingyour visa.
But that's not necessarily tosay that there's truth in that.
But but I can see the pointyou're making is, would that
then hinder somebody fromfeeling comfortable for speaking
up then?
I would argue yes.
There is an element of whichthat would exist in this region.
Greg (16:58):
Absolutely.
Having said that my recent tripto Dubai was one of the things I
did learn is that Dubai is avery welcoming country,
anybody's welcome to, to turnup.
And some of us are lucky that wedon't have to get visas and
others or for, certainly forshort periods of time anyway.
And I guess others have to gothrough that process.
But yeah, it was it was a greatexperience and and learned a lot
(17:22):
from that that short time that Iwas up there a few months ago.
I guess many of my colleagues assafety professionals we are
trained in compliance.
A bit of a dirty word, but we'replaying trained in compliance
and technical risk.
And the technical aspects of ourjob.
But my observations globallyreally would be that cultural
(17:47):
nuance is not part of the safetycurriculum.
What advice would you give tosomebody in safety who wants to
strengthen their ownunderstanding and application of
cultural intelligence.
Emma (18:03):
Yeah.
It's something I see all thetime living in a, an expat
environment where people come infrom different countries, very
technically competent, but havehad no experience of, maybe
working with people of differentcultures.
And it, I think people justthink it's.
It will all just fall intoplace.
And then maybe quite quicklythey realize that they've been a
(18:25):
little bit naive to thinkingthat they would just be able to
work with people from differentcultures without any sort of
deeper thought into what, whatthat might look like.
So I think for me not just insafety, but in, in all
industries, globalization isn'tslowing down at any pace.
Sure.
I think it's something that'skey for everybody really.
Which is to, to get.
(18:45):
Cultural intelligence trainingto really start to understand
beyond cultural awareness.
What can you do to be moreeffective when you're working
with people from differentcultures?
CQ training would be my firstrecommendation, but that would
then help you to start to becomemore aware of different cultural
values so that when you are indifferent settings, it's
(19:09):
different safety settings withinthe workplace, you can then
start to, see how differentcultures perhaps perceive risk.
Do they perceive risk to atthis, to the same level as
yourself or even, on a widerscale to the same level that of
the organization are theyaligned with the safety values
of the organization?
(19:29):
And you can determine this basedon, asking questions safety
questions, observe the answersthat people give you.
Think about how you can potpotentially adapt your
communication style so that yoursafety messages are received in
a way that they prefer to becommunicated to.
(19:49):
I think there's lots of thingsthat, like I said earlier,
thinking about, how are youenabling people to report safety
issues?
So there's lots of things thatwe would be thinking about, but
we are not naturally inclined tothink about, safety perhaps in
those ways, unless we've firstgone out of our way to educate
ourself on, how do differentcultures perceive safety and
(20:12):
risk.
And you can only do that throughstarting to develop your
cultural intelligence.
Greg (20:18):
Yeah, and I think certainly it's been my
experience.
I've been talking about culturalintelligence for a few years and
locally here my observationearly on, and I think this
hasn't changed a lot, maybe alittle bit, but not a lot.
We use the term culturalintelligence, people nod.
And go, yeah, I know what thatis.
(20:38):
And then, if you dig a littlebit deeper what they're
describing in terms of theirknowledge is, oh yeah, I know
some stuff about that particularculture's values and norms.
And it's.
I guess it's culturalcompetency, it's cultural
knowledge, it's not culturalintelligence.
And again, I dunno if that'sbeen your experience of when
start talking about this.
(20:58):
Is that a similar understandingthat you get from the people
that you work with or speakingto?
'cause you speak quite a bit interms of conferences and events.
Is that the feeling that you getfrom people?
Emma (21:11):
Yeah, so I think especially people that have been
in the region for a number ofyears, they've certainly got
cultural awareness becausethey've been working with
colleagues from all differentcountries and cultures for a
long time now.
But it doesn't necessarily meanthat they have cultural
intelligence.
The the difference with culturalintelligence is, and am I now
with that cultural awareness,willing to think about how I
(21:32):
need to adapt my approach sothat I can be more effective in
those cultural interactions.
I.
So somebody with just culturalawareness is somebody that says,
yes, I know about that culture,but this is how I am and this is
how I'm gonna carry on working.
And they and there's almost anexpectation that the other
person is gonna flex to me.
Whereas somebody with culturalintelligence says, ah, okay,
(21:53):
this person operates in adifferent way to me.
They communicate differently.
They perceive risk in adifferent way.
They understand, authority in adifferent way.
And so with that understanding,my approach now with these, with
this team of people is gonnalook slightly different so that
I can maximize that interactionthat I have with them and get
the most out of my team.
If you want to be a good manageryou need a team that trusts you.
(22:16):
And so I think it's importantthat you think about, how is
trust built across differentcultures?
In some cultures it's builtbased on, our competence, what
our CV says, how skilled we are,whereas in other cultures, it's
built on relationship In Dubaispecifically, most of the people
that operate here build trust onthe relationship.
(22:37):
And as a safety leader, how areyou investing time in building
those relationships with thepeople that report to you so
that if they did want to come toyou with any concerns, that they
feel that you know that it'sgonna be received well from your
side.
Greg (22:53):
You mentioned something during that response about yeah,
I know something about culture,but this is me.
This is how I'm gonna work.
And our combined mentor DaveLivermore I think wrote
something a couple of months agoabout in, in a in a diverse
situation, who has aresponsibility to adapt.
Yeah.
And the answer.
There's somewhat twofold, butthere's probably really only one
(23:16):
right answer.
And the first answer was ifyou're in a homogenous
situation, then it's whoever'sgot the highest level of
cultural intelligence.
I'm not sure how manyhomogenous, real homogenous
situations actually exist in theworld anymore.
But the more, I guess the moreappropriate answer is whoever
(23:36):
has got the most power in.
Whatever that situation mightbe.
And your perceived power couldchange depending on which
particular room you're in atthat particular moment in time,
depending based on who the otherparticipants are.
So I thought that was quite a, Iguess a useful scenario to, to
(23:57):
consider is if you feel thatyou've got the most power in the
room, then it's up to you tochange.
Emma (24:04):
Agreed.
And so that's the differencebetween looking at the
horizontal lines of culturewhere we've been talking about
authority and communication andinstead looking at the vertical
line of.
Of, power dynamics that, wheredo we sit in terms of our social
economic position on that line?
Whether that's because of ouragenda, whether that's because
(24:26):
of our job title.
So if you are perceived to bethe person with the most amount
of authority or power in theroom it might not be as I say,
because of job title, but it'syour responsibility to think
about how you can adapt.
Which is an interesting one whenyou're a female in the
construction industry.
Greg (24:46):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I just wanna, while we weretalking about Dave Livermore
maybe I'll just divert quicklyand talk about in the intro I
mentioned that you were part ofthe Society of CQ Fellows.
And you went through thatprocess last year.
2024.
It's the process that I'm goingthrough this year in 2025.
(25:07):
Just really keen to hear acouple of snippets of your
experience of that program.
Emma (25:14):
Sure.
So for me, I found the programfantastic.
It was a great way to, interactwith people from different
cultures on a topic that youknow, on a topic of culture.
So in the cohort that I was partof we had people from Japan the
Philippines, Singapore, Americacontinental Europe UK.
(25:38):
So it was a real mix ofdifferent people with different
perspectives because evensomething like cultural
intelligence where we talk aboutculture, we need to also think
about how is that perceived fromdifferent cultural perspectives
as well.
So it was great.
It was great to, hear differentpeople's views on that across
the room and, share ourdifferent research and insights
(26:01):
with one another and really seehow we can come together and
support one another in buildinglots of different cq products or
services that will just help tocontinue to leverage that CQ is
a, an important skill for thefuture it's not one to be
undermined really orundervalued.
I think it's something that'sover time is going to gain great
(26:22):
attraction.
But I also think that it wasfantastic to have the
opportunity to have one-to-oneswith David as well.
He's a guy that I look up toreal source of intellect
knowledge about culturalintelligence and so it was
fantastic to have theopportunity to have dedicated
time with him as well.
Greg (26:39):
Yep, absolutely.
And, I think one of the thingsthat he reflected just a few
weeks ago actually at our firstretreat was the concept of the,
or the reason for bringing thesecohorts together.
And, there's been, I think weare the third.
We might be the third groupthat's gone through.
And maybe there's a few more in,in coming years.
(27:01):
It's really about takingcultural intelligence from being
this theoretical academicconstruct, which it's been for
20 years while the research hasbeen carried out and having
people around the world who arethen able to take that theory
and put it into practice intheir own specific areas of
(27:24):
interest and their own sort ofniche focus areas.
Yeah, it's about making itcreating the practical side of
it and really trying to, I guessprove the theory.
So it was it's an outstandingexperience to go through that
group.
Emma (27:37):
Yeah.
As you say that it's, thecultural intelligence model is
very much an academictheoretical model, but the fact
that we can now apply it intodifferent industry sectors based
on different people's technicalexpertise that were in those
different cohorts whilst at thesame time they're all coming
from different countries is areally great way to champion
(27:58):
that message of CQ around theworld.
Greg (28:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've got one question or pointof discussion to go and I don't
know, it might be we, you'vegiven us so much already in
terms of recommendations andadvice.
And I guess the last question isif you could embed one CQ skill
into every safety professional'stoolkit, what would that be?
(28:23):
And why?
Emma (28:25):
The culture intelligence model has the four, four
capabilities, CQ drive, which isyour motivation, CQ knowledge,
which is your knowledge you'vegot CQ strategy, which is how
you adapt and CQ action, how youput that into practice.
So for me, it has to be thatfirst one, CQ drive.
You have to have that initialmotivation to actually want to
(28:45):
make a difference, to actuallywant to change, to be
open-minded to the idea ofactually, there's a different
perspective out there.
And so for me it's about CQdrive that motivation to, to
want to consider differentperspectives.
And then, and that naturallythen leads into the other three.
Greg (29:07):
Yeah, it's interesting when you go through the CQ
training, I think they had somevideos of people and they, they
asked them all.
What's the most important bit?
Of course, they had people therethat would, say, oh, CQ drive or
knowledge or strategy or actionwas for them the most important.
But it for me it almost, I.
(29:29):
Leads, you start with drive andit's almost a natural
progression to go through thosefour from drive to knowledge, to
strategy to behavior.
I guess you could argue thataction and strategy.
Are together because you knowthat, that bit about adaptation.
How do you respond in the momentis all about your speech and
(29:53):
your body language and how youtalk.
So those two almost maybe becomepart of one.
But yeah, look I agree.
You've gotta wanna do it.
And you've gotta see the valuein it.
And you've gotta have as the, Iguess the framework talks about
having that confidence to to putyourself into an unfamiliar
(30:13):
environment with the purposes oftrying to understand other
perspectives.
And so probably unsurprisingly,we might be on the same path or
same track, the same opinions onthat.
It's been lovely to speak to youagain and I, yeah, your book is
that, how's that progressing?
Emma (30:35):
So it's with the authorities here in the UAE
awaiting a permit so that it canbe published.
So you just have to watch thisspace.
Greg (30:43):
Okay.
Excellent.
Oh I'm sure it'll be all overLinkedIn when that comes out and
we'll be sharing it and and andgetting it out there for you.
And the podcast reminds me, it'scalled the CQ and the HR
podcast.
It's the
Emma (30:55):
HR and CQ show.
Greg (30:58):
Yes.
So if people, yes.
And your colleague.
Emma (31:01):
Yeah, my PO colleague Sarah Brooks.
So if people follow me onLinkedIn they'll be able to find
the link for the podcast showfrom there.
Greg (31:09):
Yeah, sure.
And we can put a a link intothat on the show notes.
And as I say, we'll we'll bangthe drum when the book comes out
as well.
Thank you very much.
Hey lovely to to speak to youagain.
And yeah, look forward to tocatching up again in in the not
too distant future and justthanks so much for spending some
time with us.
Emma (31:28):
Thanks so much for having me.
Thanks, Greg.
Greg (31:34):
Didn't our conversation dive deep into power distance,
communication styles, and thepsychological dynamics that
affect trust reporting and riskperception?
Here are my key takeaways.
Firstly, storytelling is a crosscultural safety, superpower.
(31:55):
In multicultural settings,safety messages often get lost
in translation, literally andculturally, Emma highlights how
storytelling personalizes riskand transcends communication
barriers.
There's a lesson here thatstories evoke empathy and
resonate universally, especiallywhen traditional authority
(32:18):
driven messaging fails.
My second key takeaway yes,doesn't always mean yes,
especially in high powerdistance cultures.
Emma breaks down how cultureswith hierarchical norms often
foster indirect communication.
Workers may agree outwardly withleadership to save face or avoid
(32:42):
conflict even when they disagreeor don't understand.
This creates dangerous blindspots in safety critical
environments.
The lesson here is leaders needto dig deeper, ask more
questions, read between thelines and foster an environment
where people feel safe enough tosay no.
(33:07):
My third takeaway languagematters.
Simplicity, clarity, andtranslation saves lives in
workplaces with dozens ofnationalities, assuming everyone
understands English the same wayis risky.
Emma recommends simplificationof all safety, communication,
(33:27):
ditching jargon and fluff, andwhere possible translating
briefings into employees nativelanguages.
The lesson clear and inclusivecommunication reduces accidents
and fosters trust.
My fourth takeaway,psychological safety requires
(33:48):
cultural adaptation.
Creating a speak up cultureisn't enough if the act of
speaking up is culturallyuncomfortable, many workers,
especially those on visas or inlow status roles, fear
consequences for being honest.
Emma recommends anonymousreporting channels and
(34:10):
culturally sensitive leadershipto bridge that gap.
The lesson, psychological safetyis not one size fits all, it
must be designed with culturaldynamics in mind.
And finally, CQ Drive is thefirst step and the most critical
(34:30):
of the four capabilities in theCQ model, drive knowledge,
strategy, action, emmaemphasizes CQ Drive as
foundational.
Without the internal motivationto adapt, no amount of knowledge
or strategy will translate intobehavior change.
(34:50):
In our final lesson, culturalintelligence starts with a
desire to understand and flex.
Everything else builds fromthere.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
(35:13):
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly,so keep an eye on your feed and
comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
(35:34):
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa.
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