February 3, 2025 • 36 mins
An intriguing conversation with Jono as we dove into his rich experiences in the military and his transition to civilian life as a health and safety advisor. The conversation covered the evolution of safety practices, the importance of cultural intelligence, and the significance of effective communication and adaptive leadership in diverse environments. Here are my takeaways,
Cultural Intelligence is Crucial: Learning the local language and cultural do's and don'ts helps break down barriers and build trust with local communities.
Preparation and Training: Being well-prepared for international deployments helps to manage psychosocial risks and provides insights into local norms, essential for effective interaction and safety management.
Effective Communication: Tailoring safety campaigns to the needs of specific cultural groups and ensuring messages are understood by all employees, regardless of language or other barriers, is essential for effective safety management.
Adaptive Leadership: Adaptive leadership is crucial for navigating diverse environments and ensuring safety.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:01):
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:42):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:06):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
In this episode we talk armedforces with Jono Johnson.
Jono began his military careerin 1980 when he joined the army
as a regular force cadet, and in1981 was posted to the Royal New
Zealand Engineers as a driver.
(01:28):
In his 20 years in the army, hiscareer included two deployments
with the UN to Cambodia andBosnia.
And he worked overseas inlandmine clearance projects in
Iraq, Senegal, France, Lebanon,Bosnia and Mozambique.
Now a civilian, Jono iscurrently employed by the NZDF
(01:48):
as a safety advisor at theLinton camp here in the
Manawatu.
Welcome to the podcast, Jono.
Great to have you here.
Jono (01:56):
Thanks for having me.
Greg (01:57):
Yeah, so a really wide ranging group of experiences, no
doubt in your military career.
Just hoping you can tell us alittle bit about yourself and
how you got to where you aretoday.
Jono (02:08):
Yep.
Okay.
Greg, as you say, joined thearmy in 1980 at the ripe old age
of 16, as the regular forcecadets for cadet school was
basically a youth entrancescheme.
As you have the officer cadetschools to produce the future
officers for the army, theregular force cadets school, the
idea behind that was to producethe future senior non
(02:29):
commissioned officers andwarrant officers.
That was pretty good and I guessright from the word go, that was
where the whole health andsafety thing started for me
because as you can appreciateone year and for some cases two
years, depending on your age thestaff there were dealing with
180 hormonally driven teenagers,which they beasted for four to
(02:52):
six weeks on our basic trainingand then gave us guns, so there
is a certainly a bit of safetyplanning required on the range
with that sort of thing.
I will admit that the safetyside of it was done a little bit
differently than it is today.
Of course, there was no healthand safety at work act the
(03:13):
Department of Labour.
took responsibility for most ofthat stuff, I think, if I
remember rightly.
But of course, everything we didwas, there was definitely a
safety flavour with it, wehardly practiced anything
without a safety briefbeforehand.
But anyway, so as you say, I didthat.
And then throughout my career Iguess there's always been a
safety background.
(03:33):
Part of that was as a corporalinstructing at the school of
military engineering.
Some of the subjects that wedealt with used heavy machinery
or constructing field machines,like the old gyn and shears.
Back in the day, if anybodystill remembers what they are
chainsaws of course.
So there's always a safetycomponent to that.
And almost anything we did withthat sort of stuff never started
(03:55):
without a pop safety quiz.
On operations, of course, thetrip to Cambodia, we were
teaching the Cambodian People'sArmed Forces how to dig up their
own landmines, in a nutshell,and dispose of them, which
involved the use of explosivesand a whole lot of standard
(04:17):
operating procedures that goalong with that, including the
other aspects of mine clearanceand Unexploded Ordnance
Disposal, because you can'talways pick the stuff up and
take it away.
And then in Bosnia we were partof the United Nations Protection
Force, or UNPROFOR.
We were working closely with thelocals in three factions as If
(04:42):
you remember, at that stage,there was a lot of moving parts
to that campaign and a lot ofdifferent factions.
So for example, where we were ina place called Vitez we had
Muslims we had Croatians we hadSerbs, then you get into the
whole thing with SerbianMuslims, Bosnians and Bosnian
(05:03):
Muslims.
That was, oh my goodness, yes, alocal guy that used to work with
us, I was asking him about itand he said, look, stop, don't
even try and figure it outbecause you'll never do it.
So with that sort of stuff, andthere was still, in some cases,
fighting in some areas, there'sobviously the risk management
(05:23):
aspect was quite at theforefront for that.
That's interesting times, that'sfor sure.
Greg (05:30):
Yeah, and I guess back then, as you say, the Health and
Safety Act prior to 1992,anything health and safety came
under the sort of the factory'sregulations and laws, so that
probably didn't really even getnoticed by the Defence Force,
you just did your own thing froma safety perspective?
Jono (05:50):
Yes yes, but there was always You know, that wasn't a
get out of jail free card to gocompletely off the reservation,
like the Health and Safety atWork Act today there's a an
exclusion for us if we're underan operational activity, which,
for example, could be somethinglike Bosnia or Afghanistan or
Timor overseas.
(06:12):
Deployment.
Deployment.
Yep.
The Health and Safety at WorkAct does not apply to the New
Zealand Defence Force then,however, there's still an
expectation, not only from thegovernment I think, but also
definitely from the Chief ofDefence Force and the Chief of
whatever service you'reoperating under, that wherever
possible, you'll do things inthe safest, the safest way.
(06:32):
As safe as reasonablypracticable.
As stupid as it sounds, when wewere in Bosnia, when was that?
95, 96, health and safety wasjust starting to make waves.
I think, quotation marks healthand safety as we know it.
And we had a chainsaw that, Forsome reason did not have the
leather hand mitt on the top ofit and we had a task to do a
civil aid task, going to fixsomething for the local
(06:54):
community and we wanted to usethis chainsaw and somebody
queried the lack of the handmitt we found various reasons
why we should proceed withoutthe hand mitt, but ultimately
the decision was made not for usto, proceed.
And I think in a way it wasprobably the best thing because
when you're doing things likethat you can become very focused
(07:16):
on the objective and it's justgood to have those checks and
balances there.
Greg (07:21):
And fast forward a little bit to more recent times.
So you left sort of the service.
You're a civilian now andoffering health and safety
services or employed by theDefence Force as a health and
safety advisor and located justdown the road here at Linton and
I think you've done some safetywork for other Organizations
(07:43):
outside of the military haven't?
Jono (07:44):
Yeah I got out in 2000 after 20 years and went to work
in Northern Iraq or Kurdistan,depending on who you talk to.
So I was working for the UnitedNations Office for Project
Services.
They had a big mine clearanceproject in the north of Iraq and
(08:06):
So that's I guess that's where Ibasically started that career if
you like.
So that was really that was myfirst Not my first experience
with working with anotherculture, but my first experience
working hand in hand byeverything we did relied on what
the Kurds were doing.
For example, I was the surveyofficer, which meant that I had
12 survey teams and those teamswould go out to find minefields
(08:29):
basically.
And they were all You know,indigenous, local people.
My assistant was a local guy andmy driver was a local guy, so it
was very definitely full of fullimmersion, that's for sure.
Greg (08:43):
And we'll come back and talk about that a little bit
further on.
But you've obviously had somewide ranging experiences working
overseas, obviously somechallenging environments But
obviously, as you've maybeindicated, an opportunity to
connect with locals both at anindividual level and a community
level and obviously some partsof the world that were probably
(09:05):
initially pretty challenging foryou not your place of birth or
upbringing or any of that sortof stuff.
Have you got any sort ofmemories of particular cultural
challenges that you had in someof those places around the
world?
Jono (09:20):
I think not so much only places like that, like the post
conflict places, but anywhereyou go that's foreign to you,
that speaks a different languagethat's a massive cultural
challenge in the beginning.
There's a huge sense of trustthere.
You have to trust what yourinterpreter is saying.
Mainly for the fact that youwant to ensure that he is
(09:41):
getting everything exactlyright.
For example the interpreter thatwe had in Cambodia, the first
interpreter we ended upnicknaming him Lucky because he,
unfortunately for him he thoughtthat he could take the lessons
for us if you know what I mean,you know we gave him all of the
lesson plans so he could readthem and because sometimes
(10:04):
things in English don'ttranslate literally into
whatever language, you'redealing with.
So we gave him all the lessonplans so he could read them and
understand, if he had anyquestions about the
technicalities, because it'squite a technical environment.
He would clear those up.
Unfortunately for him, he got itinto his head that he was better
at the subject than we were.
(10:25):
And there was a officer attachedto us.
In the first course.
And, after about a week oflessons, he came to us and said,
you need to pay attention tothis guy because he is not
saying what you are saying.
Now, up until then, we didn'tknow this guy spoke English, so
apparently the guy was so badthat this little, the little guy
(10:47):
said to us, this captain's shortlittle chap, he said to us, if
you don't sort it out or hedoesn't sort it out we will take
him away and he won't come back.
I don't know, I guess that'sreverse cultural challenge
because it became, it wasn't fortheir own, but we had no idea,
as, as far as we knew, this guywas saying, what we were saying,
we're going to go over here,we're going to hop in the car
and we're going to drive here.
(11:07):
But apparently that wasn't themessage that was getting
through.
And I also had the same thing inMozambique when I was working
there.
Yeah.
Unfortunately the interpreter Ihad there, nice guy, nice young
chap.
There was a, but there was ashortage of English speaking
people.
in the town and for want of abetter expression, he was the
(11:28):
best of a bad bunch, last manstanding sort of thing.
And towards the end though Icould, I understood enough
Portuguese to be able to say tohim, that's not what I said.
Or some of the team leadersunderstood enough English to
say, hang on, Mr Jono, thisguy's not saying what you're
telling
Greg (11:46):
And so that's that dealing with other service providers.
I guess that the military hadengaged to help you out with
working in those parts of theworld.
And you've had some connectionor you would have had
connections with just localcommunities and locals and all
of that.
Jono (12:04):
Yep.
When I first started in Iraq wehad a thing called back then it
was called Mine AwarenessTraining.
For example, in, in Cambodia,when I was still in uniform,
when we were there, we used todo that for like non government
organizations.
If they were going to a certainarea, we would get them into our
Bring them into our office andwe would tell them, okay, this
(12:25):
is where you're going.
We will give them a map.
This is where the known minefields are, and be careful when
you're out in the field, stay onthe roads, don't go off into the
fields.
All of that sort of, basicallyrisk management training.
Do's and don'ts, things to lookfor.
The community, what we call thecommunity liaison now side of it
hadn't developed then.
However, in Mozambique, theprogram I was working for, that
(12:49):
was a huge component.
Because of course, at the end ofthe day, what were we clearing
minefields and unexplodedordnance for?
We were clearing that so thecommunities could get back,
claim their fields back andbasically make a living.
Yeah.
Again.
So we had a huge input to thecommunity.
Before we started operations inan area, we would send the
(13:09):
liaison officers, the communityliaison officers, and they would
have a big risk educationprogram, posters, pictures of
mines.
This is what they look at.
They would have Examples of themthat were, we'd taken all the
explosives out we could showthem what show the locals what
they looked like.
A lot of them knew what theylooked like.
It was successful to varyingdegrees.
At the end of the day, you stillhad people who would find these
(13:31):
things and pick them up.
And for example, yeah, you hadpeople picking up mortar bombs
and bringing them to the policestation because they didn't want
them in there, in their field,no matter how many times you
tell people not to touch them.
Greg (13:43):
I remember.
I used to work in the wasteindustry and on a number of
occasions, the transfer stationswould have to be shut down
because somebody's bought a loadof rubbish in and they've found
some sort of, old grenade or anold firearm or something.
And yeah, I remember one Fridayafternoon in Auckland, rush
(14:03):
hour.
That was the scenario thisunexploded item had been found
in the trash and the ArmedOffenders Squad were based out
in West Auckland and had to getfrom West Auckland to South
Auckland in a rush hour to, sortthis thing out.
It happens here as well.
Jono (14:18):
Yeah, I've had a couple of occasions here as well where
we've had to deal with that sortof thing.
Yeah.
And it's even You know, you'dthink to yourself, man, how can
that and the one I recallvividly was a a job we did in
Karamea, down the south, on thewest coast we were there blowing
a a rock overhang off a cliffface for the Department of
Conservation, because it wasoverhanging a dock walking
(14:39):
track, yep, so anyway, thatwasn't a problem, but one of the
local cops turned up and said,oh, can you come and have a look
at this thing that we found,which turned out to be a box of
old jellignite.
That's how old it was,jellignite.
And it was sweating so.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, so that caused a whole lotof different we got rid of it in
the end but yeah, that was along day.
Greg (15:01):
So you talked before about the education that was provided
to the locals around riskmanagement and the stuff that
you were doing, but of courseI'm assuming that.
People are still interested andstill want to watch and get
close to the action and seewhat's going on.
How do you deal with that whenmaybe English is a barrier or
(15:22):
whatever, cultural barrier theremight be?
How do you make sure that thekids stay away or that, the
people that are interested inwatching and how do you deal
with that?
Jono (15:33):
Again this is where the community liaison people earn
their money.
And that starts right from thehead person, let's say the
mayor, alright?
For one, the English, the mayorof the village, the head person
of the village, it starts rightat the top with them, and it
goes right down to the literallythe youngest person in the area
(15:56):
that you're going to work for.
And they all need to know therisks associated with a what
we're doing and the risksassociated with, the equipment
that we use.
We were using some big machinerylike our ground preparation
machines, like literally theold, you see the old flails on D
Day.
Variants of them and tillingmachines.
(16:16):
And of course, obviously, we hadto really make sure that they
understood the risk tothemselves, yeah, it's your
fields, but until we finishhere, You can't go working in
them.
Plus we cordoned, we cordonedthe whole area off.
So we had to explain the markingsystem to them.
And we had signs, danger mines,which is only good if your
audience can read, but skull andcrossbones is pretty clear in
(16:38):
anybody's language.
They all got the messagegenerally.
Yeah.
Let's be honest that we'veturned up.
When the people had hurtthemselves, after the people had
hurt themselves, yeah.
There was very rarely anythingthat happened after we left.
Greg (16:52):
Maybe to the extent that you're able to talk about this
what sort of preparation are yougiven before you go overseas
into certain countries aroundtraining, around cultural norms
in places like Cambodia orMozambique or Senegal or
Lebanon,
Jono (17:09):
actually Cambodia and Bosnia were pretty good.
Cambodia, I believe ourdeployment.
I was on the first deployment toCambodia.
And I believe our deployment wasthe first deployment where they
started introducing psychbriefings, psychological
briefings.
This is all about psychosocialrisk and stuff like that.
This is what's going to happenwhile you're away.
This is how you're going to feelalmost for the day.
(17:32):
They were telling you like atthe six, at the three month
mark, you're probably going tobe feeling like this.
And also don't forget that.
Your family at home have gotthings to deal with as well.
So they're going to be feelinglike that.
The cultural side of thingsPalmerston North has quite a
large Cambodian community.
So we had a really nice ladycame out to teach us a bit of
Cambodian before we went andsome cultural do's and don'ts
(17:54):
for when we get over there.
We didn't, we weren't going incompletely blind.
And I have to say they work, andI think Kiwis for some reason,
Kiwis.
We're pretty good.
We just seem to get on witheverybody, so we're pretty laid
back bunch and nothing seems tofaze us very much and we just
get on with people.
And we also seem to have a, insome cases, a, we pick up the
(18:18):
language quite quickly.
The first thing, the first thingyou learn is where can you get
something, where can you get it.
Get something to drink.
What's the bad words?
What words shouldn't you say?
And you go on from there becauselike anywhere, if you go to a
foreign country, if you can showpeople that you're making the
effort to speak their languagethat's knocks down a huge amount
(18:39):
of barriers right from thestart.
Bosnia was the same.
We were very well prepared forthat.
We had a, because there was, andwhen we went to Cambodia, there
was 22 of us, I think, asopposed to Bosnia, which was.
Probably 120 plus, so we werevery well prepared going over
there.
Greg (18:56):
Yeah, you're right that sort of that at least an attempt
to use some of the locallanguages is a good way to break
down barriers and understandingthe sort of the do's and the
don'ts and the taboos.
I've got to head off to Dubai ina few weeks to do a presentation
and just doing some researchabout the dos and don'ts in, in
(19:22):
that part of the worldparticularly from a presentation
perspective.
Yeah.
And just trying to understand,are there any things body
language wise that might be abit of a taboo or a bit of a, a
no.
And the things that I should do.
So it's all the sort of the sameconcept concepts.
Any specific examples of fauxPAs that might have occurred in
(19:45):
any of those scenarios wherecultural sort of mistakes have
been made?
Jono (19:52):
Only for me yeah.
In, in, in some parts.
Of the Middle East, you have tobe, because there's, how do I
phrase this?
So there's varying degrees of ofhow strongly Muslim or Islamic
you are.
The, some of the Kurds I knewfor example, they were Muslim,
(20:14):
but they were pretty relaxed.
The women could walk aboutuncovered and actual fact it was
just like walking around athome.
If you like the women woulddress pretty much exactly the
same.
In the summer, short skirts,bare legs which I was really
amazed me that was up in thenorth.
Whereas a mate of mine who wasworking for the same project, he
was when he first came in theystopped for a night in Baghdad
(20:38):
and he thought he'd go wanderaround the local markets and
have a look.
And he was in shorts and sandalsand he ended up having stuff
thrown at him at the market.
In the market.
Cabbages thrown because of theway he was dressed.
That's one consideration thatyou have to take into account.
The other thing of course is youdon't, you obviously, shaking
hands with a woman is not thedone thing.
You it's natural for us.
(20:59):
Yep.
And the first time it happenedto me it, it really threw me, I
went to, I was introduced tothis lady I.
Put my hand out to shake herhand and there was no, nothing.
And I was like, wow, okay.
Then I so it was, but it threwme, I wasn't used to that
happening.
On the on the other side of thecoin in France, when you meet a
lady for the, Instead of shakinghands, they'll kiss you, and I
(21:21):
was not prepared for that atall.
But certainly in the MiddleEast, there's a whole lot of
stuff, if you're not preparedfor it, it's a completely
different environment, as Iwould say, as working in Africa,
you can either work in Africa oryou can't.
A lot of people say, I thinkI'll go and work in Africa.
For a couple of years, we'llthink hard because it's not
easy.
And that's, there's, there's noracism there or anything like
(21:44):
that.
It's just and the Middle East,it's just complete opposite ends
of the cultural spectrum.
I'm not necessarily in a badway.
It's just different.
For example, in, in what I foundin Lebanon in particular, if
everything has to be negotiated,if you're working in an office
here, for example, and you wantto do something management wants
(22:06):
you to do something, you'llbasically be told what you're
going to do.
And not from a military, I don'tmean from a military
perspective, because that'sorders, But, from a general
office environment, this is theplan, this is the way we're
gonna do it.
But stuff like that requires abit of negotiation, a bit of
negotiation.
Greg (22:24):
Let's bring it back to New Zealand.
And how has the, thoseexperiences of working in all of
those countries helped you inyour safety role here?
I, is, are the people that youwork with are they all Kiwis or
is it pretty diverse?
Jono (22:42):
There, there's there's a diverse demographic in the army
anyway.
We're a very multiculturaldefence force now.
But there's there's no politicalI don't think cultural faux pas
in that respect becauseeverybody's pretty Kiwi ized
(23:02):
anyway, so it's, if anything, myexperience working overseas has
taught me how to communicatebetter.
Particularly not so much in theDefence Force, but in the two
jobs I had outside the DefenceForce.
I came down to earth with a bitof a thud, because the mine
clearance industry is built onthe back of military operating
(23:24):
procedures, which there's verylittle leeway.
And it's a very hierarchical andauthoritative environment to
live in.
That sort of doesn't workoutside of a military camp.
So I had to wind my neck in alittle bit, I don't mind
admitting, as a learningopportunity, it was a great
learning opportunity for me,Yeah, just talk to people
basically, as well as I do,nobody likes a Nobody likes
(23:46):
health and safety people ingeneral, in your business.
And they like them even worsewhen all they can do is bark at
you.
Greg (23:52):
Yeah, I guess that leads into a little bit of a
discussion around, aroundcommand and control versus trust
and inspire, which is, takingthe words from the Covey
Institute, or Covey Foundationwith Covey Jr.
Writing a book by that, I think,by that title, Trust and
Inspire, and the ethos beingthat, the days of command and
control in business, shouldevolve into creating a trusting
(24:16):
and inspirational workplace.
Now that's a challenge, for themilitary.
Because the military is aboutcommand and control.
But then there's also, thestories that have been written
by, and I can't remember hisname off the top of my head, but
wrote the book Turn the ShipAround.
So he's a US nuclear submarinecaptain who really changed the
(24:42):
way that he led the crew on theships that he was in charge of
to one which was more aboutengaging and allowing the crew
to make decisions and justkeeping the captain informed
about what they were going todo, rather than being told what
to do.
Is that something, I guessyou've touched on that a little
(25:02):
bit in terms of your, yourcoming back to earth with a bit
of a thud is that something thatyou see potentially happening in
the military?
Are they moving towards I guessthey're never going to eliminate
command and control, but moreengagement and connection with
those who are under theircommand.
Jono (25:22):
Yeah, there's there is a bit of a movement.
With the just culture side ofthings.
I think you're right.
I don't think the defence, theDefence Force, whether people
like it or not, has I'm gonnatalk only about the Army here,
because the Air Force and theNavy, I have to admit, are a
(25:43):
little bit more relaxed.
But, That's the way theyoperate.
I don't have any problem withthat.
In the Army in particular,because it's the biggest, it's
the biggest of the services.
And what we're required to doonce we get on the ground.
Like for the, it's the same forthe other services, but very
(26:03):
particular for the Army.
Although a lot of, I don't knowwhether a lot of people think of
it like that, but you.
Join the army and you are beingtrained so there is going to
come a time when although duringtraining, train hard, fight
easy.
If you're going to make anymistakes, make them during
training so you don't make, youdon't make the same mistake on
the ground when you get outthere.
(26:24):
But when you get out on theground and orders need to be
given in certain situations,you, what you don't want, if
you're a commander, is somebodytrying to second guess you, I
think, or having, trying to havea bit of a discussion as to how
best you're going to achieve theobjective, this is our
objective.
We are going to go over here andwe were going, we are going to
(26:44):
take that objective.
If you have any questions, speaknow or hold your peace and get
going, you must've heard, and Iwatch countless YouTube videos
about people talking and youalways hear the same thing, and
then the training just kicked inand then, that's what you want.
You want, when something happensyou want the training to kick
in.
You're going to think about it.
Maybe there's people out therethat don't disagree with me, but
(27:06):
in my mind, you're going tothink about it.
Think about it afterwards.
Yeah, to a point.
Greg (27:10):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And that talks a little bit tocultural intelligence in terms
of reflecting on the experience.
You've planned You've done allyour research or training.
You're in the situation andyou're able to adapt to
whatever's thrown at you, andthen there's a debrief, and a
(27:35):
lot of the time the debrief iswhere the learning occurs, not
necessarily while you're doingthe deed.
Jono (27:42):
Yep that in particular that was, wow, that was brought
home to me very quickly.
A month to the day after Iarrived in Mozambique, where we
had an accident, where a guy gothis leg blown off by an anti
personnel mine.
So I had to, this team, it wasmy closest team, was four hours
(28:02):
drive away.
It's a big country.
So we had to get out there.
I didn't have an interpreter atthat stage, so I was relying on
the extremely limited Portuguesethat I could speak.
I was relying on the extremelylimited English that my two
(28:22):
operations supervisors couldspeak.
Yeah.
And when we got out on site Iwas given a briefing as best I
could have been by the teamleader.
And because after the accidentthey pulled everybody back to
the control point.
So from then on it was up to meto to grab a metal detector and
go forward into the nowdangerous area, which was
previously a cleared area, butnow it's a dangerous area again.
(28:44):
And and try and see whathappened.
I looked at these guys, I saw alot of brown faces and looking
back at my white face, there'sso what are you going to do now?
And I was thinking, and this iswhere I just thought to myself,
okay, trust your training.
You have to trust your training.
Not only that, you have to trustthese people here.
(29:04):
It doesn't, this is the firsttime I met these people.
I, five minutes before drivinginto the site, I didn't know any
of them at all.
They'd been doing it, whatthey're doing for a long time.
So I had to trust that they knewwhat they were doing, regardless
of what happened.
To the poor chap that had hisleg blown off.
Yeah, so that was a massivelearning curve for me.
Greg (29:29):
So just as we wind up, one of the things I tend to ask is
if you've got one or two tipsfor health and safety people
around engaging and connectingwith people that are different
to them from a culturalperspective, what are a couple
of things that people reallyneed to do to make sure that
process goes well?
Jono (29:50):
Take an interest and more importantly show interest.
And more and more if we'retalking about New Zealand we are
getting more and more culturallydiverse and, it is no longer,
again, quotation marks, justKiwis working in the workforce.
Now, there's a whole lot ofother cultures and if you show
(30:11):
an interest in what,particularly if you're working
on the management side ofthings, if you are having a
safety campaign for work.
then try and look at it fromthe, in a place where I work in
Palmerston North, there was alot of Samoan guys working for
us.
So I tried to look at safetyfrom their point of view, and
how to approach it.
(30:31):
There's also a number of Indianguys working with us.
We tried to, if there wasanything that needed to be
written because, some of themdidn't speak the best English.
So we tried to get thingswritten in Samoan and Hindi as
well.
Didn't need to do it very often.
We had a couple of deaf guysworking with us.
So you really have to make surethat, if there's a team meeting
(30:52):
I was there for about six monthsand looking at, they made
meetings every morning and Iused to go to them sometimes and
look at these two deaf guys.
And, after a while I went up tothem and said to them, Do you
understand what they're talkingabout?
Oh, about 30%.
From a safety perspective,that's not cool.
Greg (31:10):
And, it's really interesting that you make that
point, and there's a health andsafety professional out there
who, posed a question recentlyaround what percentage Of staff
or workers, is it OK to notcommunicate with effectively?
Now, the obvious answer is zero,right?
(31:32):
But do we even think about that?
Do we think about I've got to doa toolbox talk to 50 people?
Wait, I'll go and I'll go anddeliver it.
How much do we need to thinkabout whether there's a couple
of people who have got, hearingissues or dyslexia or English is
not first language or whateverit might be, so yeah, I think
(31:53):
you.
So you started off talking aboutcuriosity, I think, taking an
interest and then trying to,consider your message from the
perspective of the people thatmight be in the audience, not
necessarily your perspective.
Jono (32:08):
I think there's a massive moral obligation there as well.
You can't, that sort of thing,depending on what, for want of a
better expression, depending onwhat the job is.
But you're obligated, from asafety aspect.
If it if it's that much of anissue, you are obligated to make
sure that your message getsthrough a hundred percent.
I think.
However you do that, sometimesyou gotta think outside the box.
Greg (32:30):
Hey, Jono.
Thanks so much for your time.
It's been great to have a chatand I think you might be the
first sort of person from amilitary background that we've
had on there.
So that's another first for thispodcast.
So thanks for your time andcontribution and look forward to
catching up again soon.
Jono (32:50):
Awesome.
Thanks for having me Greg.
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Greg (32:55):
What an intriguing conversation with Jono as we
dove into his rich experiencesin the military and his
transition into civilian life asa health and safety advisor.
The conversation covered theevolution of safety practices,
the importance of culturalintelligence and the
significance of effectivecommunication and adaptive
(33:15):
leadership in diverseenvironments.
Here are some takeaways.
Cultural intelligence iscrucial.
Jono's experiences in a range ofcountries he has visited such as
Cambodia, Mozambique, andNorthern Iraq emphasize the
importance of understanding andrespecting local cultural norms.
(33:39):
Learning the local language andcultural do's and don'ts helps
break down barriers and buildstrust with local communities.
Jono underscored the value ofthe cultural liaison role and
community education in ensuringsafety in the range of contexts
that he was in.
Preparation and training.
(33:59):
The preparation beforedeployment includes
psychological briefings andcultural training.
This training helped to managepsychosocial risk and provides
insights into local norms,essential for effective
interaction in safetymanagement.
Jono's story of beingwell-prepared for deployments to
Cambodia and Bosnia highlightsthe benefits of comprehensive
(34:23):
training.
I suggest that this type ofapproach applies equally.
We dealing with diversity in adomestic setting.
Effective communication isanother area of focus.
Jono highlights the significanceof clear communication,
especially when working withinterpreters in diverse teams.
(34:43):
Misunderstandings due tolanguage barriers can lead to
safety risks.
Tailoring your safety campaignsto the needs of specific
cultural groups and ensuringmessages are understood by all
employees, regardless oflanguage or other barriers is
essential for effective safetymanagement.
(35:05):
And finally adaptive leadership.
The conversation touched on theshift from a hierarchical
command and control approach toa more collaborative trust and
inspire model.
While, the military often relieson command and control Jono
notes a movement towards greaterengagement and connection with
personnel.
(35:25):
Adaptive leadership, whichincludes effective training and
fostering trust is crucial fornavigating diverse environments
and ensuring safety.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
(35:46):
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
And there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly.
So keep an eye on your feed.
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
(36:08):
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa.
Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the
Culturally Intelligent SafetyProfessional, a podcast aimed at
providing a platform where bysafety professionals can develop
a pathway to enhance theircultural intelligence capability
which will help them functionmore effectively when working in
a multicultural situation.
(00:21):
I'm Greg Dearsly your host and Ihave a range of guests lined up
to talk to this year.
We have people with experiencesacross leadership psychology,
health and safety, education andof course cultural intelligence.
All of our guests come from awide range of different
backgrounds across the diversityspectrum, including from
(00:42):
different organizationalcontext.
In this podcast you'll hearstories aimed at helping you the
listener enhance your culturalintelligence.
You'll gain an understanding ofhow you can create trust when
working in diverse environmentsand quite frankly, that's all
the time no matter howhomogenous the place you work at
might be, it's still full ofdiversity, people with different
(01:06):
backgrounds, experiences andbeliefs, all built on their
figured world.
In this episode we talk armedforces with Jono Johnson.
Jono began his military careerin 1980 when he joined the army
as a regular force cadet, and in1981 was posted to the Royal New
Zealand Engineers as a driver.
(01:28):
In his 20 years in the army, hiscareer included two deployments
with the UN to Cambodia andBosnia.
And he worked overseas inlandmine clearance projects in
Iraq, Senegal, France, Lebanon,Bosnia and Mozambique.
Now a civilian, Jono iscurrently employed by the NZDF
(01:48):
as a safety advisor at theLinton camp here in the
Manawatu.
Welcome to the podcast, Jono.
Great to have you here.
Jono (01:56):
Thanks for having me.
Greg (01:57):
Yeah, so a really wide ranging group of experiences, no
doubt in your military career.
Just hoping you can tell us alittle bit about yourself and
how you got to where you aretoday.
Jono (02:08):
Yep.
Okay.
Greg, as you say, joined thearmy in 1980 at the ripe old age
of 16, as the regular forcecadets for cadet school was
basically a youth entrancescheme.
As you have the officer cadetschools to produce the future
officers for the army, theregular force cadets school, the
idea behind that was to producethe future senior non
(02:29):
commissioned officers andwarrant officers.
That was pretty good and I guessright from the word go, that was
where the whole health andsafety thing started for me
because as you can appreciateone year and for some cases two
years, depending on your age thestaff there were dealing with
180 hormonally driven teenagers,which they beasted for four to
(02:52):
six weeks on our basic trainingand then gave us guns, so there
is a certainly a bit of safetyplanning required on the range
with that sort of thing.
I will admit that the safetyside of it was done a little bit
differently than it is today.
Of course, there was no healthand safety at work act the
(03:13):
Department of Labour.
took responsibility for most ofthat stuff, I think, if I
remember rightly.
But of course, everything we didwas, there was definitely a
safety flavour with it, wehardly practiced anything
without a safety briefbeforehand.
But anyway, so as you say, I didthat.
And then throughout my career Iguess there's always been a
safety background.
(03:33):
Part of that was as a corporalinstructing at the school of
military engineering.
Some of the subjects that wedealt with used heavy machinery
or constructing field machines,like the old gyn and shears.
Back in the day, if anybodystill remembers what they are
chainsaws of course.
So there's always a safetycomponent to that.
And almost anything we did withthat sort of stuff never started
(03:55):
without a pop safety quiz.
On operations, of course, thetrip to Cambodia, we were
teaching the Cambodian People'sArmed Forces how to dig up their
own landmines, in a nutshell,and dispose of them, which
involved the use of explosivesand a whole lot of standard
(04:17):
operating procedures that goalong with that, including the
other aspects of mine clearanceand Unexploded Ordnance
Disposal, because you can'talways pick the stuff up and
take it away.
And then in Bosnia we were partof the United Nations Protection
Force, or UNPROFOR.
We were working closely with thelocals in three factions as If
(04:42):
you remember, at that stage,there was a lot of moving parts
to that campaign and a lot ofdifferent factions.
So for example, where we were ina place called Vitez we had
Muslims we had Croatians we hadSerbs, then you get into the
whole thing with SerbianMuslims, Bosnians and Bosnian
(05:03):
Muslims.
That was, oh my goodness, yes, alocal guy that used to work with
us, I was asking him about itand he said, look, stop, don't
even try and figure it outbecause you'll never do it.
So with that sort of stuff, andthere was still, in some cases,
fighting in some areas, there'sobviously the risk management
(05:23):
aspect was quite at theforefront for that.
That's interesting times, that'sfor sure.
Greg (05:30):
Yeah, and I guess back then, as you say, the Health and
Safety Act prior to 1992,anything health and safety came
under the sort of the factory'sregulations and laws, so that
probably didn't really even getnoticed by the Defence Force,
you just did your own thing froma safety perspective?
Jono (05:50):
Yes yes, but there was always You know, that wasn't a
get out of jail free card to gocompletely off the reservation,
like the Health and Safety atWork Act today there's a an
exclusion for us if we're underan operational activity, which,
for example, could be somethinglike Bosnia or Afghanistan or
Timor overseas.
(06:12):
Deployment.
Deployment.
Yep.
The Health and Safety at WorkAct does not apply to the New
Zealand Defence Force then,however, there's still an
expectation, not only from thegovernment I think, but also
definitely from the Chief ofDefence Force and the Chief of
whatever service you'reoperating under, that wherever
possible, you'll do things inthe safest, the safest way.
(06:32):
As safe as reasonablypracticable.
As stupid as it sounds, when wewere in Bosnia, when was that?
95, 96, health and safety wasjust starting to make waves.
I think, quotation marks healthand safety as we know it.
And we had a chainsaw that, Forsome reason did not have the
leather hand mitt on the top ofit and we had a task to do a
civil aid task, going to fixsomething for the local
(06:54):
community and we wanted to usethis chainsaw and somebody
queried the lack of the handmitt we found various reasons
why we should proceed withoutthe hand mitt, but ultimately
the decision was made not for usto, proceed.
And I think in a way it wasprobably the best thing because
when you're doing things likethat you can become very focused
(07:16):
on the objective and it's justgood to have those checks and
balances there.
Greg (07:21):
And fast forward a little bit to more recent times.
So you left sort of the service.
You're a civilian now andoffering health and safety
services or employed by theDefence Force as a health and
safety advisor and located justdown the road here at Linton and
I think you've done some safetywork for other Organizations
(07:43):
outside of the military haven't?
Jono (07:44):
Yeah I got out in 2000 after 20 years and went to work
in Northern Iraq or Kurdistan,depending on who you talk to.
So I was working for the UnitedNations Office for Project
Services.
They had a big mine clearanceproject in the north of Iraq and
(08:06):
So that's I guess that's where Ibasically started that career if
you like.
So that was really that was myfirst Not my first experience
with working with anotherculture, but my first experience
working hand in hand byeverything we did relied on what
the Kurds were doing.
For example, I was the surveyofficer, which meant that I had
12 survey teams and those teamswould go out to find minefields
(08:29):
basically.
And they were all You know,indigenous, local people.
My assistant was a local guy andmy driver was a local guy, so it
was very definitely full of fullimmersion, that's for sure.
Greg (08:43):
And we'll come back and talk about that a little bit
further on.
But you've obviously had somewide ranging experiences working
overseas, obviously somechallenging environments But
obviously, as you've maybeindicated, an opportunity to
connect with locals both at anindividual level and a community
level and obviously some partsof the world that were probably
(09:05):
initially pretty challenging foryou not your place of birth or
upbringing or any of that sortof stuff.
Have you got any sort ofmemories of particular cultural
challenges that you had in someof those places around the
world?
Jono (09:20):
I think not so much only places like that, like the post
conflict places, but anywhereyou go that's foreign to you,
that speaks a different languagethat's a massive cultural
challenge in the beginning.
There's a huge sense of trustthere.
You have to trust what yourinterpreter is saying.
Mainly for the fact that youwant to ensure that he is
(09:41):
getting everything exactlyright.
For example the interpreter thatwe had in Cambodia, the first
interpreter we ended upnicknaming him Lucky because he,
unfortunately for him he thoughtthat he could take the lessons
for us if you know what I mean,you know we gave him all of the
lesson plans so he could readthem and because sometimes
(10:04):
things in English don'ttranslate literally into
whatever language, you'redealing with.
So we gave him all the lessonplans so he could read them and
understand, if he had anyquestions about the
technicalities, because it'squite a technical environment.
He would clear those up.
Unfortunately for him, he got itinto his head that he was better
at the subject than we were.
(10:25):
And there was a officer attachedto us.
In the first course.
And, after about a week oflessons, he came to us and said,
you need to pay attention tothis guy because he is not
saying what you are saying.
Now, up until then, we didn'tknow this guy spoke English, so
apparently the guy was so badthat this little, the little guy
(10:47):
said to us, this captain's shortlittle chap, he said to us, if
you don't sort it out or hedoesn't sort it out we will take
him away and he won't come back.
I don't know, I guess that'sreverse cultural challenge
because it became, it wasn't fortheir own, but we had no idea,
as, as far as we knew, this guywas saying, what we were saying,
we're going to go over here,we're going to hop in the car
and we're going to drive here.
(11:07):
But apparently that wasn't themessage that was getting
through.
And I also had the same thing inMozambique when I was working
there.
Yeah.
Unfortunately the interpreter Ihad there, nice guy, nice young
chap.
There was a, but there was ashortage of English speaking
people.
in the town and for want of abetter expression, he was the
(11:28):
best of a bad bunch, last manstanding sort of thing.
And towards the end though Icould, I understood enough
Portuguese to be able to say tohim, that's not what I said.
Or some of the team leadersunderstood enough English to
say, hang on, Mr Jono, thisguy's not saying what you're
telling
Greg (11:46):
And so that's that dealing with other service providers.
I guess that the military hadengaged to help you out with
working in those parts of theworld.
And you've had some connectionor you would have had
connections with just localcommunities and locals and all
of that.
Jono (12:04):
Yep.
When I first started in Iraq wehad a thing called back then it
was called Mine AwarenessTraining.
For example, in, in Cambodia,when I was still in uniform,
when we were there, we used todo that for like non government
organizations.
If they were going to a certainarea, we would get them into our
Bring them into our office andwe would tell them, okay, this
(12:25):
is where you're going.
We will give them a map.
This is where the known minefields are, and be careful when
you're out in the field, stay onthe roads, don't go off into the
fields.
All of that sort of, basicallyrisk management training.
Do's and don'ts, things to lookfor.
The community, what we call thecommunity liaison now side of it
hadn't developed then.
However, in Mozambique, theprogram I was working for, that
(12:49):
was a huge component.
Because of course, at the end ofthe day, what were we clearing
minefields and unexplodedordnance for?
We were clearing that so thecommunities could get back,
claim their fields back andbasically make a living.
Yeah.
Again.
So we had a huge input to thecommunity.
Before we started operations inan area, we would send the
(13:09):
liaison officers, the communityliaison officers, and they would
have a big risk educationprogram, posters, pictures of
mines.
This is what they look at.
They would have Examples of themthat were, we'd taken all the
explosives out we could showthem what show the locals what
they looked like.
A lot of them knew what theylooked like.
It was successful to varyingdegrees.
At the end of the day, you stillhad people who would find these
(13:31):
things and pick them up.
And for example, yeah, you hadpeople picking up mortar bombs
and bringing them to the policestation because they didn't want
them in there, in their field,no matter how many times you
tell people not to touch them.
Greg (13:43):
I remember.
I used to work in the wasteindustry and on a number of
occasions, the transfer stationswould have to be shut down
because somebody's bought a loadof rubbish in and they've found
some sort of, old grenade or anold firearm or something.
And yeah, I remember one Fridayafternoon in Auckland, rush
(14:03):
hour.
That was the scenario thisunexploded item had been found
in the trash and the ArmedOffenders Squad were based out
in West Auckland and had to getfrom West Auckland to South
Auckland in a rush hour to, sortthis thing out.
It happens here as well.
Jono (14:18):
Yeah, I've had a couple of occasions here as well where
we've had to deal with that sortof thing.
Yeah.
And it's even You know, you'dthink to yourself, man, how can
that and the one I recallvividly was a a job we did in
Karamea, down the south, on thewest coast we were there blowing
a a rock overhang off a cliffface for the Department of
Conservation, because it wasoverhanging a dock walking
(14:39):
track, yep, so anyway, thatwasn't a problem, but one of the
local cops turned up and said,oh, can you come and have a look
at this thing that we found,which turned out to be a box of
old jellignite.
That's how old it was,jellignite.
And it was sweating so.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, so that caused a whole lotof different we got rid of it in
the end but yeah, that was along day.
Greg (15:01):
So you talked before about the education that was provided
to the locals around riskmanagement and the stuff that
you were doing, but of courseI'm assuming that.
People are still interested andstill want to watch and get
close to the action and seewhat's going on.
How do you deal with that whenmaybe English is a barrier or
(15:22):
whatever, cultural barrier theremight be?
How do you make sure that thekids stay away or that, the
people that are interested inwatching and how do you deal
with that?
Jono (15:33):
Again this is where the community liaison people earn
their money.
And that starts right from thehead person, let's say the
mayor, alright?
For one, the English, the mayorof the village, the head person
of the village, it starts rightat the top with them, and it
goes right down to the literallythe youngest person in the area
(15:56):
that you're going to work for.
And they all need to know therisks associated with a what
we're doing and the risksassociated with, the equipment
that we use.
We were using some big machinerylike our ground preparation
machines, like literally theold, you see the old flails on D
Day.
Variants of them and tillingmachines.
(16:16):
And of course, obviously, we hadto really make sure that they
understood the risk tothemselves, yeah, it's your
fields, but until we finishhere, You can't go working in
them.
Plus we cordoned, we cordonedthe whole area off.
So we had to explain the markingsystem to them.
And we had signs, danger mines,which is only good if your
audience can read, but skull andcrossbones is pretty clear in
(16:38):
anybody's language.
They all got the messagegenerally.
Yeah.
Let's be honest that we'veturned up.
When the people had hurtthemselves, after the people had
hurt themselves, yeah.
There was very rarely anythingthat happened after we left.
Greg (16:52):
Maybe to the extent that you're able to talk about this
what sort of preparation are yougiven before you go overseas
into certain countries aroundtraining, around cultural norms
in places like Cambodia orMozambique or Senegal or
Lebanon,
Jono (17:09):
actually Cambodia and Bosnia were pretty good.
Cambodia, I believe ourdeployment.
I was on the first deployment toCambodia.
And I believe our deployment wasthe first deployment where they
started introducing psychbriefings, psychological
briefings.
This is all about psychosocialrisk and stuff like that.
This is what's going to happenwhile you're away.
This is how you're going to feelalmost for the day.
(17:32):
They were telling you like atthe six, at the three month
mark, you're probably going tobe feeling like this.
And also don't forget that.
Your family at home have gotthings to deal with as well.
So they're going to be feelinglike that.
The cultural side of thingsPalmerston North has quite a
large Cambodian community.
So we had a really nice ladycame out to teach us a bit of
Cambodian before we went andsome cultural do's and don'ts
(17:54):
for when we get over there.
We didn't, we weren't going incompletely blind.
And I have to say they work, andI think Kiwis for some reason,
Kiwis.
We're pretty good.
We just seem to get on witheverybody, so we're pretty laid
back bunch and nothing seems tofaze us very much and we just
get on with people.
And we also seem to have a, insome cases, a, we pick up the
(18:18):
language quite quickly.
The first thing, the first thingyou learn is where can you get
something, where can you get it.
Get something to drink.
What's the bad words?
What words shouldn't you say?
And you go on from there becauselike anywhere, if you go to a
foreign country, if you can showpeople that you're making the
effort to speak their languagethat's knocks down a huge amount
(18:39):
of barriers right from thestart.
Bosnia was the same.
We were very well prepared forthat.
We had a, because there was, andwhen we went to Cambodia, there
was 22 of us, I think, asopposed to Bosnia, which was.
Probably 120 plus, so we werevery well prepared going over
there.
Greg (18:56):
Yeah, you're right that sort of that at least an attempt
to use some of the locallanguages is a good way to break
down barriers and understandingthe sort of the do's and the
don'ts and the taboos.
I've got to head off to Dubai ina few weeks to do a presentation
and just doing some researchabout the dos and don'ts in, in
(19:22):
that part of the worldparticularly from a presentation
perspective.
Yeah.
And just trying to understand,are there any things body
language wise that might be abit of a taboo or a bit of a, a
no.
And the things that I should do.
So it's all the sort of the sameconcept concepts.
Any specific examples of fauxPAs that might have occurred in
(19:45):
any of those scenarios wherecultural sort of mistakes have
been made?
Jono (19:52):
Only for me yeah.
In, in, in some parts.
Of the Middle East, you have tobe, because there's, how do I
phrase this?
So there's varying degrees of ofhow strongly Muslim or Islamic
you are.
The, some of the Kurds I knewfor example, they were Muslim,
(20:14):
but they were pretty relaxed.
The women could walk aboutuncovered and actual fact it was
just like walking around athome.
If you like the women woulddress pretty much exactly the
same.
In the summer, short skirts,bare legs which I was really
amazed me that was up in thenorth.
Whereas a mate of mine who wasworking for the same project, he
was when he first came in theystopped for a night in Baghdad
(20:38):
and he thought he'd go wanderaround the local markets and
have a look.
And he was in shorts and sandalsand he ended up having stuff
thrown at him at the market.
In the market.
Cabbages thrown because of theway he was dressed.
That's one consideration thatyou have to take into account.
The other thing of course is youdon't, you obviously, shaking
hands with a woman is not thedone thing.
You it's natural for us.
(20:59):
Yep.
And the first time it happenedto me it, it really threw me, I
went to, I was introduced tothis lady I.
Put my hand out to shake herhand and there was no, nothing.
And I was like, wow, okay.
Then I so it was, but it threwme, I wasn't used to that
happening.
On the on the other side of thecoin in France, when you meet a
lady for the, Instead of shakinghands, they'll kiss you, and I
(21:21):
was not prepared for that atall.
But certainly in the MiddleEast, there's a whole lot of
stuff, if you're not preparedfor it, it's a completely
different environment, as Iwould say, as working in Africa,
you can either work in Africa oryou can't.
A lot of people say, I thinkI'll go and work in Africa.
For a couple of years, we'llthink hard because it's not
easy.
And that's, there's, there's noracism there or anything like
(21:44):
that.
It's just and the Middle East,it's just complete opposite ends
of the cultural spectrum.
I'm not necessarily in a badway.
It's just different.
For example, in, in what I foundin Lebanon in particular, if
everything has to be negotiated,if you're working in an office
here, for example, and you wantto do something management wants
(22:06):
you to do something, you'llbasically be told what you're
going to do.
And not from a military, I don'tmean from a military
perspective, because that'sorders, But, from a general
office environment, this is theplan, this is the way we're
gonna do it.
But stuff like that requires abit of negotiation, a bit of
negotiation.
Greg (22:24):
Let's bring it back to New Zealand.
And how has the, thoseexperiences of working in all of
those countries helped you inyour safety role here?
I, is, are the people that youwork with are they all Kiwis or
is it pretty diverse?
Jono (22:42):
There, there's there's a diverse demographic in the army
anyway.
We're a very multiculturaldefence force now.
But there's there's no politicalI don't think cultural faux pas
in that respect becauseeverybody's pretty Kiwi ized
(23:02):
anyway, so it's, if anything, myexperience working overseas has
taught me how to communicatebetter.
Particularly not so much in theDefence Force, but in the two
jobs I had outside the DefenceForce.
I came down to earth with a bitof a thud, because the mine
clearance industry is built onthe back of military operating
(23:24):
procedures, which there's verylittle leeway.
And it's a very hierarchical andauthoritative environment to
live in.
That sort of doesn't workoutside of a military camp.
So I had to wind my neck in alittle bit, I don't mind
admitting, as a learningopportunity, it was a great
learning opportunity for me,Yeah, just talk to people
basically, as well as I do,nobody likes a Nobody likes
(23:46):
health and safety people ingeneral, in your business.
And they like them even worsewhen all they can do is bark at
you.
Greg (23:52):
Yeah, I guess that leads into a little bit of a
discussion around, aroundcommand and control versus trust
and inspire, which is, takingthe words from the Covey
Institute, or Covey Foundationwith Covey Jr.
Writing a book by that, I think,by that title, Trust and
Inspire, and the ethos beingthat, the days of command and
control in business, shouldevolve into creating a trusting
(24:16):
and inspirational workplace.
Now that's a challenge, for themilitary.
Because the military is aboutcommand and control.
But then there's also, thestories that have been written
by, and I can't remember hisname off the top of my head, but
wrote the book Turn the ShipAround.
So he's a US nuclear submarinecaptain who really changed the
(24:42):
way that he led the crew on theships that he was in charge of
to one which was more aboutengaging and allowing the crew
to make decisions and justkeeping the captain informed
about what they were going todo, rather than being told what
to do.
Is that something, I guessyou've touched on that a little
(25:02):
bit in terms of your, yourcoming back to earth with a bit
of a thud is that something thatyou see potentially happening in
the military?
Are they moving towards I guessthey're never going to eliminate
command and control, but moreengagement and connection with
those who are under theircommand.
Jono (25:22):
Yeah, there's there is a bit of a movement.
With the just culture side ofthings.
I think you're right.
I don't think the defence, theDefence Force, whether people
like it or not, has I'm gonnatalk only about the Army here,
because the Air Force and theNavy, I have to admit, are a
(25:43):
little bit more relaxed.
But, That's the way theyoperate.
I don't have any problem withthat.
In the Army in particular,because it's the biggest, it's
the biggest of the services.
And what we're required to doonce we get on the ground.
Like for the, it's the same forthe other services, but very
(26:03):
particular for the Army.
Although a lot of, I don't knowwhether a lot of people think of
it like that, but you.
Join the army and you are beingtrained so there is going to
come a time when although duringtraining, train hard, fight
easy.
If you're going to make anymistakes, make them during
training so you don't make, youdon't make the same mistake on
the ground when you get outthere.
(26:24):
But when you get out on theground and orders need to be
given in certain situations,you, what you don't want, if
you're a commander, is somebodytrying to second guess you, I
think, or having, trying to havea bit of a discussion as to how
best you're going to achieve theobjective, this is our
objective.
We are going to go over here andwe were going, we are going to
(26:44):
take that objective.
If you have any questions, speaknow or hold your peace and get
going, you must've heard, and Iwatch countless YouTube videos
about people talking and youalways hear the same thing, and
then the training just kicked inand then, that's what you want.
You want, when something happensyou want the training to kick
in.
You're going to think about it.
Maybe there's people out therethat don't disagree with me, but
(27:06):
in my mind, you're going tothink about it.
Think about it afterwards.
Yeah, to a point.
Greg (27:10):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And that talks a little bit tocultural intelligence in terms
of reflecting on the experience.
You've planned You've done allyour research or training.
You're in the situation andyou're able to adapt to
whatever's thrown at you, andthen there's a debrief, and a
(27:35):
lot of the time the debrief iswhere the learning occurs, not
necessarily while you're doingthe deed.
Jono (27:42):
Yep that in particular that was, wow, that was brought
home to me very quickly.
A month to the day after Iarrived in Mozambique, where we
had an accident, where a guy gothis leg blown off by an anti
personnel mine.
So I had to, this team, it wasmy closest team, was four hours
(28:02):
drive away.
It's a big country.
So we had to get out there.
I didn't have an interpreter atthat stage, so I was relying on
the extremely limited Portuguesethat I could speak.
I was relying on the extremelylimited English that my two
(28:22):
operations supervisors couldspeak.
Yeah.
And when we got out on site Iwas given a briefing as best I
could have been by the teamleader.
And because after the accidentthey pulled everybody back to
the control point.
So from then on it was up to meto to grab a metal detector and
go forward into the nowdangerous area, which was
previously a cleared area, butnow it's a dangerous area again.
(28:44):
And and try and see whathappened.
I looked at these guys, I saw alot of brown faces and looking
back at my white face, there'sso what are you going to do now?
And I was thinking, and this iswhere I just thought to myself,
okay, trust your training.
You have to trust your training.
Not only that, you have to trustthese people here.
(29:04):
It doesn't, this is the firsttime I met these people.
I, five minutes before drivinginto the site, I didn't know any
of them at all.
They'd been doing it, whatthey're doing for a long time.
So I had to trust that they knewwhat they were doing, regardless
of what happened.
To the poor chap that had hisleg blown off.
Yeah, so that was a massivelearning curve for me.
Greg (29:29):
So just as we wind up, one of the things I tend to ask is
if you've got one or two tipsfor health and safety people
around engaging and connectingwith people that are different
to them from a culturalperspective, what are a couple
of things that people reallyneed to do to make sure that
process goes well?
Jono (29:50):
Take an interest and more importantly show interest.
And more and more if we'retalking about New Zealand we are
getting more and more culturallydiverse and, it is no longer,
again, quotation marks, justKiwis working in the workforce.
Now, there's a whole lot ofother cultures and if you show
(30:11):
an interest in what,particularly if you're working
on the management side ofthings, if you are having a
safety campaign for work.
then try and look at it fromthe, in a place where I work in
Palmerston North, there was alot of Samoan guys working for
us.
So I tried to look at safetyfrom their point of view, and
how to approach it.
(30:31):
There's also a number of Indianguys working with us.
We tried to, if there wasanything that needed to be
written because, some of themdidn't speak the best English.
So we tried to get thingswritten in Samoan and Hindi as
well.
Didn't need to do it very often.
We had a couple of deaf guysworking with us.
So you really have to make surethat, if there's a team meeting
(30:52):
I was there for about six monthsand looking at, they made
meetings every morning and Iused to go to them sometimes and
look at these two deaf guys.
And, after a while I went up tothem and said to them, Do you
understand what they're talkingabout?
Oh, about 30%.
From a safety perspective,that's not cool.
Greg (31:10):
And, it's really interesting that you make that
point, and there's a health andsafety professional out there
who, posed a question recentlyaround what percentage Of staff
or workers, is it OK to notcommunicate with effectively?
Now, the obvious answer is zero,right?
(31:32):
But do we even think about that?
Do we think about I've got to doa toolbox talk to 50 people?
Wait, I'll go and I'll go anddeliver it.
How much do we need to thinkabout whether there's a couple
of people who have got, hearingissues or dyslexia or English is
not first language or whateverit might be, so yeah, I think
(31:53):
you.
So you started off talking aboutcuriosity, I think, taking an
interest and then trying to,consider your message from the
perspective of the people thatmight be in the audience, not
necessarily your perspective.
Jono (32:08):
I think there's a massive moral obligation there as well.
You can't, that sort of thing,depending on what, for want of a
better expression, depending onwhat the job is.
But you're obligated, from asafety aspect.
If it if it's that much of anissue, you are obligated to make
sure that your message getsthrough a hundred percent.
I think.
However you do that, sometimesyou gotta think outside the box.
Greg (32:30):
Hey, Jono.
Thanks so much for your time.
It's been great to have a chatand I think you might be the
first sort of person from amilitary background that we've
had on there.
So that's another first for thispodcast.
So thanks for your time andcontribution and look forward to
catching up again soon.
Jono (32:50):
Awesome.
Thanks for having me Greg.
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Greg (32:55):
What an intriguing conversation with Jono as we
dove into his rich experiencesin the military and his
transition into civilian life asa health and safety advisor.
The conversation covered theevolution of safety practices,
the importance of culturalintelligence and the
significance of effectivecommunication and adaptive
(33:15):
leadership in diverseenvironments.
Here are some takeaways.
Cultural intelligence iscrucial.
Jono's experiences in a range ofcountries he has visited such as
Cambodia, Mozambique, andNorthern Iraq emphasize the
importance of understanding andrespecting local cultural norms.
(33:39):
Learning the local language andcultural do's and don'ts helps
break down barriers and buildstrust with local communities.
Jono underscored the value ofthe cultural liaison role and
community education in ensuringsafety in the range of contexts
that he was in.
Preparation and training.
(33:59):
The preparation beforedeployment includes
psychological briefings andcultural training.
This training helped to managepsychosocial risk and provides
insights into local norms,essential for effective
interaction in safetymanagement.
Jono's story of beingwell-prepared for deployments to
Cambodia and Bosnia highlightsthe benefits of comprehensive
(34:23):
training.
I suggest that this type ofapproach applies equally.
We dealing with diversity in adomestic setting.
Effective communication isanother area of focus.
Jono highlights the significanceof clear communication,
especially when working withinterpreters in diverse teams.
(34:43):
Misunderstandings due tolanguage barriers can lead to
safety risks.
Tailoring your safety campaignsto the needs of specific
cultural groups and ensuringmessages are understood by all
employees, regardless oflanguage or other barriers is
essential for effective safetymanagement.
(35:05):
And finally adaptive leadership.
The conversation touched on theshift from a hierarchical
command and control approach toa more collaborative trust and
inspire model.
While, the military often relieson command and control Jono
notes a movement towards greaterengagement and connection with
personnel.
(35:25):
Adaptive leadership, whichincludes effective training and
fostering trust is crucial fornavigating diverse environments
and ensuring safety.
So we've come to the end of thisepisode, thanks so much for
listening.
I hope you found somethingvaluable that you can take away
(35:46):
that might enhance aspects ofyour own cultural intelligence.
I'll add the transcript from theepisode to the show notes.
And there'll be some otherresources available as well.
If you'd like to talk aboutcultural intelligence, get in
touch with me via LinkedIn.
I'm posting content regularly.
So keep an eye on your feed.
And comment if you see somethingthat resonates.
(36:08):
If we aren't connected, send mean invite.
If you want to hear more aboutCQ, you can follow and subscribe
to this podcast, I would reallyappreciate it if you did that,
and keep an eye out for the nextepisode.
Ma te wa.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!