The art world thrives on connections – between artists and institutions, across cultures, and through the passionate individuals who dedicate their lives to fostering creative dialogue. Dr. Princess Alia Al Senussi stands as perhaps the quintessential example of this connective power, described by Hans Ulrich Obrist as "the ultimate junction maker" in the global contemporary art scene.
As we dive into this fascinating conversation, Dr. Al Senussi takes us through her journey from being a "third culture kid" of Libyan and American heritage to becoming one of the most influential figures in international art circles. Without any social media presence – a rarity in today's hyperconnected world – she has established herself as a crucial bridge between regions, institutions, and artistic communities through sheer persistence, genuine curiosity, and an unwavering belief in art's power to transcend boundaries.
Her professional evolution from Art Basel's UK and MENA representative to Senior Advisor International Outreach reveals the delicate balance between professional dedication and personal passion that drives meaningful cultural exchange.
Perhaps most revealing is Dr. Al Senussi's account of her involvement with Saudi Arabia's cultural renaissance. Despite encountering prejudice from colleagues who "absolutely didn't even want to hear that there were artists in this country," her persistence in highlighting the kingdom's vibrant creative community has helped transform global perceptions. Her co-authored book, "Arts in Saudi Arabia: A New Creative Economy," stands as a testament to this commitment.
For those aspiring to similar paths, her advice is refreshingly straightforward: "You need to engage, you need to be persistent, and you need to show up." In an industry built on relationships and in-person connections, there's simply no substitute for being physically present where art happens. Whether you're pursuing curatorial work, arts administration, or cultural diplomacy, follow Dr. Al Senussi's example – be "everything everywhere all at once" in your passionate pursuit of artistic connection.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Action.
Welcome to the Curation, a showfor the culturally curious.
This is your host, noor Hassan.
Each week, I'll guide youthrough a curated edit of the
finest in art, fashion, design,culture, luxury, wellness, tech
and more.
This is your go-to space fordiscovering trailblazing ideas,
untold stories and meaningfulconversations with innovators
(00:30):
and creators who are shaping ourworld.
There's no gatekeeping here, sosit back, tune in and let's
discover only the best.
In this episode, I speak to DrPrincess Alia El-Sinousi.
(00:51):
Alia is a globally renownedmember of the contemporary art
world, with a focus on culturalstrategy and patronage systems.
The reason I really wanted tointerview Alia for the Curation
podcast is because she'sconsidered one of the foremost
figures in contemporary art ofour generation.
She's served as Art Basel's UKand MENA representative for over
(01:12):
a decade and is currently theSenior Advisor International
Outreach for Art Basel.
In 2019, she was appointedSenior Advisor to the Ministry
of Culture, Saudi Arabia, whereshe focuses on developing
international partnerships,while working on a variety of
projects in Saudi Arabia theFormisk Institute, the Ministry
of Culture and the Dariya BienAli Foundation.
Dr Ali was previously avisiting lecturer at Brown
(01:34):
University Watson Institute,working primarily with the
Middle East Studies program.
She also is currently thefounding chairperson of the K11
International Council, a memberof the Tate Modern Advisory
Council in London, the Board ofTrustees of the ICA London, the
Strategic Advisory Panel of theDelfina Foundation London, as
(01:54):
well as many more incredibleachievements and titles that
she's amassed over the years.
Most recently, dr Alia has beenappointed to the Ishara
Foundation Advisory Board.
In this episode, we discusseverything from.
Dr Alia has been appointed tothe Ishara Foundation Advisory
Board.
In this episode, we discusseverything from Dr Alia's
morning routine to how it is.
She traverses the liminal linesbetween the global, regional
(02:16):
and local art world.
It's a fascinating episode andI hope you enjoy.
So, without further ado, thisis my conversation with Dr
Princess Alia El-Sinoussi.
Hey, everyone, right now I'mspeaking to Princess Dr Alia
(02:40):
El-Sinoussi, and it's an honorto be speaking to you today.
It's an honor to have you on mypodcast.
You're actually a guest thathas been really on my bucket
list for a couple of years now.
I'm not sure if you know this,valia, thank you truly and then
and we met serendipitously atishara art foundation, um in
(03:01):
dubai a couple of months ago andI fully like ran after you
after the talk and I really justwanted to make sure to have you
on the podcast because I knowthat my audience would love to
hear more about your work.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Thank you so much for inviting me and indeed it was
such a kind of fortuitous momentwalking in there at Ischata and
, you know, meeting you.
It was actually my first tourthere after being asked to be on
the advisory board, and thenthey said they had another
special guest that they wereworking with.
So yeah, it was just perfect.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Interesting.
I love that.
So our first question on thepodcast on the curation is kind
of a signature question for me,which is I like to ask my guest
who is Alia al-Sinoussi today?
So if you have to describeyourself in this moment in time
and I know you have many titleswhich are incredible and we'll
(03:57):
get into them, but who?
Who would you say you are today?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I am somebody who is deeply committed to the arts, to
what art means to the world, towhat art means to humanity, and
I think that has been somethingthat is the common thread
throughout all the phases of mycareer and my adult life, which
you know.
My very first job was workingin the art world and where I
really found my calling and mypassion job was working in the
(04:25):
art world and where I reallyfound my calling and my passion,
and I would say, even more sotoday as we see the world that I
had.
So, you know, kind of thoughtthat I lived in this
cosmopolitan, multiculturalworld in a way kind of crumbling
around us but at the same time,the arts to me are the only way
we can get through this momentand hopefully build what we
(04:47):
would wish to see.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's a beautiful answer, and I think that it kind
of really sets up the stage foreverything we'll speak about on
this episode.
And so our second question thatI love to ask and I feel it
tells me kind of a lot about myguest is what's your morning
routine, so when you wake up?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
in the morning.
What are all of the things thatyou do that kind of set you up
for the day.
Well, as we are in on January8th, you know, the first week of
January, I, like many people inthe world and on a workout kick
, and so I wake up and I willeither go to a spin class or a
Pilates class and, you know,kind of continue my day from
there.
But actually prior to that Iwake up and you know, I know
(05:33):
it's a horrible habit, butobviously the first thing I do
is reach for my phone.
I answer all of my WhatsApps,then I go through all my emails
and invariably, because I'm inso many different time zones and
I also amably because I'm in somany different time zones and I
also am in contact with peoplein so many different time zones
I have a lot to catch up on.
And then during the year, myday actually, yeah, always
(05:55):
starts with my phone.
I'm gonna be honest and I'm suremy audience are gonna, you know
, laugh and say the same, butalso many will reprimand me for
that, including my own mother.
But you know, and then itstarts you know, typical, I
think, like many people a bottleof water, a coffee, and I try
(06:16):
to get out for my first meetingand try to walk to my first
meeting.
And I find that I live inLondon and it's very refreshing.
And even when I'm kind ofduring a major art moment or an
art fair moment, um, you know,especially in places like Miami,
I really love that morning walkin the great out of doors in
Miami around this amazing beachboardwalk.
(06:37):
Here in London we have allthese parks and I love that
moment of contemplation and justthat breath of fresh air and
and kind of being part of theworld.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, I love that.
And would you say that you'remore of a morning person or
you've become a morning personover the years?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
So I definitely think like my like in terms of work
wise, absolutely, I am the mostproductive in the mornings in
terms of, you know, likethoughtful emails, writing.
I am right now on a majordeadline for an essay and that
is definitely like it needs tobe done in the first half of my
day, but I am also, you know,just invariably because of my
(07:18):
commitments and all of thethings I do.
Work for me really is also inthe evening, but that's more
interacting with artists, goingto openings, going to dinners,
you know, meeting people, youknow, and that you know.
Of course it's super fun and Ilove what I do and I actually
have so much fun doing what I do.
But it's work and you knowthat's also, you know.
(07:39):
So I'd say my day is splitmorning and evening.
Between the two types of twosides of my work.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
My day is split morning evening between the two
types of two sides of my work.
Yeah, that's a superinteresting juxtaposition of,
like what we do.
Essentially, you have to beproductive in the morning, but a
lot of what goes on in the artworld is essentially like things
that do happen, events that arelater in the day, et cetera.
So that's a really good point.
And you're incredible atanswering emails Like.
(08:06):
I've never really met someoneso like efficient at answering
emails, like.
Even when you're Art Basel,you're like I'm in Miami, I'll
get back to you.
I love it.
It was fantastic, all right.
So your journey in thecontemporary art world has been
honestly quite extraordinary.
You know, can you shareinitially what drew you to this
(08:27):
field, just how it all started?
Just very briefly for theaudience, because ever since
then there have been manyiterations of your career.
But what was the beginningpoint that you can pinpoint?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
So when I was in university I studied
international relations andMiddle East studies and I was
always really fascinated withthe way in which the world
worked, connecting people fromdifferent parts of the world,
connecting communities.
Because I am somebody who's youknow, I call myself a third
culture kid.
You know there was afascinating article by another
(09:04):
fantastic journalist called NoorBrara for the New York Times
describing what a third culturekid is, and actually she also
did a feature on me for Artnet.
That's probably one of the bestwritten features on me.
She really got me and then Iunderstood that because she
herself was also like me, andwhen she wrote the New York
Times it was about LucaGuadagnino's TV show and about
(09:27):
the way in which we perhaps growup and how we bring together
our various influences forsomebody like me.
So I'm half Libyan, halfAmerican.
My father's family are veryLibyan, you know.
Had left Libya, lived in Cairo.
I lived with them.
There are very Libyan, you know.
Had left Libya, lived in Cairo.
I lived with them there.
My father kind of grew upbetween Rome after they had left
(09:48):
Libya and he was 12 years old.
My mother was American, veryAmerican, grew up in Minnesota.
I then lived with her in the USbut then traveled to see my
father and his family.
So I lived between these twovery different worlds.
I didn't live in like an Arabfamily in America.
You know, it's a different, youknow kind of a different
concept.
So then, you know, I went awayto school.
(10:10):
I went to boarding school, Iwent to, then back to the US
University, but within a veryinternational community, at
Brown.
Brown is a very internationalschool and because I'd gone in
from an international school, Ithen was, you know, kind of
grouped together with theinternational students.
Of course also had, you know,many American friends.
So my world was always likepiecing together these parts and
(10:32):
I became very interested inwhat artists do, how culture is
translated.
And I was, you know, inuniversity during 9-11, and
there was so muchmisunderstanding and so much
misinformation and then, ofcourse, arabs and Arabic
(10:53):
countries, especially at thattime Saudi Arabia, were trying
to really explain who they were.
You know, not everyone ispainted with one brush.
Not everyone is painted withone brush.
And so then I moved to Londonand, just by chance, a friend of
mine from university, her momwas a collector and was very
deeply involved in the art world.
(11:14):
Funnily enough, I just ran intoher on the street yesterday.
I don't see her that often butshe's this wonderful, wonderful
woman.
So you know, it's like all myworld coming together that we're
talking about her today.
And she said there's thisamazing project in Siwa in Egypt
and I think you know you shouldgo do that.
Don't do your don't.
I was doing a summer internshipat Goldman Sachs.
(11:34):
She was like I don't see you asan investment bank, wow.
Very different, very different,yeah, exactly.
And I was like really, andshe's like, yes, just go do this
.
Like go talk to the, the, the,the it was a gallery that was
putting it together um, who havethe house and kind of, uh,
sponsor the project.
And so I go um into thismeeting.
(11:55):
You know I'm 22 years old andum, the gallers hires me right
away.
It took some time, and so forall of you in the audience, I,
whenever I do any calls andmentorship of young people, I
say you have to be persistent.
I wrote him at the time, youknow, a cover letter.
I sent it in the mail, I handdelivered it.
No response.
I sent him an email no response, like second or third email.
(12:18):
Okay, yeah, come in for a.
Sorry, you know haven't gottenback to you.
Come in for an interview.
So you know, haven't gottenback to you.
Come in for an interview.
So you know, you just kind ofpolitely persist and you know
you'll get your meeting or maybeyou won't, but you know, at
least you've tried.
And so it was funny he had tosay I'm still very close to him.
(12:39):
Michael Q Williams, hediscovered my cover letter when
he was like moving offices a fewyears ago.
He sent me a picture of it andI mean, let me just say I was
slightly embarrassed, but youknow, I was 22 years old.
But it was like dear mister, Iwould like to introduce myself,
but it was like lovely.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But I love that.
That's just like the nice thing.
22 and feeling like I guess you.
So where do you get thispersistence from?
Is it from your mother, yourfather?
Your upbringing that sort ofhad you interact with a plethora
of people.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I think it's.
It was the upbringing, like, ifI look at, you know, kind of
neither my mother or my fatherare, let's say, my like people
who mentored me professionally.
I mean, they've both beenextremely supportive of my
professional life, um, but, youknow, have not taken the same
path.
I have, Um, my grandfather, my,my maternal grandfather, um,
you know, have not taken thesame path.
I have my grandfather, mymaternal grandfather, you know,
was somebody who really believedin hard work.
(13:30):
You know, one of his favoritephrases was you must be a
productive member of society,you know, in all ways, and kind
of give back.
You know you vote, you, payyour taxes.
You, you know you work, yousupport your community, pay your
taxes.
You, you know you work, yousupport your community.
So I think that was somethingthat was deeply ingrained in me.
And then, I mean, the rest ofit just kind of fell into place.
(13:52):
You know, I'm an only child.
I have a younger half brother,but we didn't grow up together
and, you know, just kind ofgetting through things on my own
, but with loving support frommy family and friends.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And I find it fascinating that you not only
kind of started your career atthis project but you went on so
far as to do a PhD eventually,right In politics and exploring
sort of cultural strategy.
Can I ask you what made youactually end up doing a PhD?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Um, two factors really.
Uh, and, to be totally honest,part of it was that people and
still to a certain extent, youknow, I have like a
misperception of me and my lifeand my work Less so now because
I've established myself, I thinkand thank you so much for your
(14:51):
very kind introduction.
You know, I think peoplerespect me and what I do and
I've worked hard for that.
But people still look at me andwill say, oh, but she's having
so much fun.
You know, that's just like fun,like she just like travels
around the world and like, oh,she just goes to dinners or you
know whatever.
But what I do is work and Ireally believe that.
(15:11):
I actually have a friend in NewYork and I really respect how
she describes what she does.
She said, son, I can't eventell you how many boards.
She is deeply involved in theinternational community, but
especially the New York artcommunity, and when she talks to
her young daughters she's likemommy's going to work, she's
going to a gala benefit, she'sgoing to a dinner, it's work.
(15:33):
And that is like what we do andhow we, you know, produce and
support and give back and how wework within this art world
ecosystem.
So I kind of wanted to you knowat the time redefine to people.
You know that I wasn't justthis, you know, young socialite
swanning around with a couple offancy titles.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
It was much more than that Because I think it's
interesting, because even for meI feel very similarly, as well
as a lot of my audience.
When you work in the creativeindustries, especially on social
media, your life can seem likeit's very.
There's certain elements thatseem glamorous, that seem like
it isn't work, that seem like,for example, it is a lot of
(16:18):
socializing and networking andthere is a purpose to everything
that you do if you're doing itright.
So you ended up in PhD, to sortof say.
Not only is this work, not onlydo I take it seriously, but I'm
effectively making majorchanges and shifts and I'm in
this dialogue major changes andshifts in our dialogue.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yes, and I think also I'm taking this seriously.
But I also think that we cananalyze things seriously and I
really do believe in like acritical, academic approach to
the arts, to work to what I doand in what comes from you know
academia and I think also fromyou know you have these like
incredible writers and criticsin the world.
(17:04):
You know we can take a kind ofself-assessment and we can kind
of look at the work that we aredoing and redefine it.
Of course it should be lots offun and I am lucky that I take
great joy and great pleasure inthe art world and interacting
with the art world.
I, you know, of course, getexhausted like the next person
(17:24):
and I can't go 365 days a yearbut I can almost do that.
And then, you know, I take afew was about, you know, proving
something, but also provingsomething to myself and really,
(17:44):
you know, kind of looking at theworld in the art world in a
different way.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Right and I think that essentially now, when, when
anyone reads your title, Ithink it's quite, it's, uh, it's
quite an incredible fascinatingtitle.
You are, you know, dr Aliaal-Sinoussi.
You're also Princess Aliaal-Sinoussi.
You do not have a social mediapresence, which is extremely
(18:14):
fascinating because even forsomeone like me who, before
meeting you, I wanted to kind ofresearch, you Google, you
figure out, um, you know, kindof like learn more about you,
and I found that you don't havea social media.
So it's obviously easy to learnmore about you because there's
like millions of articles andinterviews and podcasts, etc.
But is there a reason for this?
I mean, just before recording,I asked you and I'd love to know
(18:35):
.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So was it intentional not to be part of social media,
very reticent of having mywhole life be so open to the
world?
In a way, I'm not a veryprivate person, Like I'm very
open book.
I'm very happy to talk topeople about you know, my life,
my struggles, my, you know who Iam, but in another way I like
(19:14):
to keep things in a very, youknow, closed circle and not
publish it to the world.
I was on a small world.
I would say that that'sprobably the only social media
thing that I've ever had.
And then, yeah, Facebook, no,and then definitely no Instagram
(19:34):
.
I love like chat and I hope.
Sometimes people call WhatsAppsocial media.
I personally don't callWhatsApp social media because
it's only for your context orpeople who connect to you.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, I mean, I don't .
I don't, it would count as such,Not really.
So, yeah, I think for me it wasjust very much about you know
(20:11):
who I am and being able to keepthat for myself social media but
simultaneously have such aprominent presence online
Because, like you said, I don'tI would not call you a private
person.
I think you you really arequite incredibly approachable,
social etc.
But and it is so incrediblethat you can find so much
(20:33):
information about your workonline but you don't have
Instagram, which, in my opinion,kind of adds such a nuanced
layer, to be honest, to the workthat you do, especially in your
field.
So I'd love to get into just mynext question, which is you've
been a key part of in Art Baselin general it's kind of this
(20:55):
whole world and so what havebeen the most transformative
moments during this time there,especially since you are
representing sort of the UK andthe MENA region?
How has it been being such arepresentative and such a key
person?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I really believe in the role of the gallery in the
art world and what the gallerymeans to the art world ecosystem
.
And I am so proud that ArtBasel is an organization that so
deeply supports galleries andthen supports them to help their
artists and support theirartists.
You know, artists are, you know, the fundamental nucleus of the
(21:37):
art world and to me, galleries,representing their estates, you
know, for artists who are nolonger with us, or representing
living artists, are the conduitsby which they can get that
message out into the world.
And you know, within our Baseluniverse, we now have four fairs
.
You know, when I started, itwas with Sam Keller, the
(21:57):
legendary director, who expandedthis.
You know, when I started it waswith Sam Keller, the legendary
director who expanded this, youknow, wonderful but small niche
show in Basel, switzerland, toMiami.
I started when we had Miami andI actually got hired when we
were in Miami and I'll neverforget the joy of that moment,
wow, yeah, yeah, it was reallyreally very special.
And I'll say, actually with Sam.
(22:19):
I was at dinner and Sam, youknow, I was like oh my God.
You know, he kind of came up tome and I was sitting actually
at the time with my mother.
It was, you know, thanksgivingweekend and she was just about
to leave and I was justfinishing up and then starting a
work week and I just said, ohmy God, sam, this is my mom.
Like you know, I just got this.
You know she knew, I knew Ijust got it.
I was like this is the man whojust hired me and I was like,
(22:41):
thank you so much.
My mom was like, oh, thank youso much.
My daughter's so excited.
He's like, well, we're just sohappy to have her come official
title but also to be paid forwhat you do.
(23:03):
And I think that you know thereis a misconception in the art
world of paid and unpaid work.
The work that I do forinstitutions is, of course,
unpaid, you know, like for Tate,and of course people do work
for those institutions, but theyare in full-time positions and
are paid to do, you know, theirjob and their role.
My role with Tate or Guggenheimand others is the opposite,
(23:26):
right, but then my work with ArtBasel and in Saudi is, of
course, out of passion and outof love, but it's also a
different type of work.
It's, you know, remunerated andI think that's really important
and I would say that likehaving that moment of validation
was a really special time.
And then you know, from there Iwas, I was a representative for
(23:50):
the MENA region, then took overthe UK and then was appointed
as a senior advisor, really forkind of all aspects of our
international outreach, becauseof my passion and my presence in
so many of our key markets.
You know, I'm a you know, Ithink, almost an honorary Hong
Konger at this point.
I absolutely love Hong Kong.
(24:11):
I think it is one of the mostspecial cities in the world and
I am so happy and honored andpleased to work there.
I'm on several differentcommittees.
I'm now the chairman of the K11International Council.
You know work with the DesignTrust.
You know, every year actuallyit was almost an auctioneer last
year which was deeply scarybeing up there on stage, and you
(24:37):
know, I just I love it and Ilove all these places and all
the people of these places.
And of course, now we have Paris.
Paris has been a reallywonderful journey.
I was spending quite a bit oftime in Paris over the last
couple of years when we madethat announcement, and doing a
lot in the city and, you know,kind of trying to create this
international feeling there andof people who you know and, of
course, for the Middle East,it's such a, you know, kind of
(24:58):
trying to create thisinternational feeling there, and
of people who you know and, ofcourse, for the Middle East,
it's such a, you know, great hub.
You know, like so many, so manyArabs you know, have such an
affinity to Paris.
You know, either remember itfrom family or have family ties
there.
Yes, of course, from NorthAfrica, but also from across the
Gulf, so and of course, lebanonand Syria.
You know there's just that tie.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I think it's interesting because, other than
Art Basel and obviously you know, in our introduction for this
episode it's going to be a verylong introduction, alia, because
you sit on a lot of boards,because we do the intro
separately, so everyone willhear all of this before
listening to the episode I amcurious to ask you so, as a
member of all of these globaladvisory boards, how do you
(25:43):
balance sort of fosteringemerging talent and youth with
preserving cultural heritage?
I kind of feel that you do both.
You're very much in tune withwhat's happening in the now and
the contemporary, but also youare a major player in preserving
cultural heritage, tellingthese stories and we'll get into
Saudi Arabia next so how do youkind of keep that balance going
(26:07):
and make sure that you knowyou're always traversing both?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I think it's just, you know, having a open and
curious mind.
You know, I'm equally happy tolook at the work of a young
artist, for example, like NoorJauda, and be so proud of her.
And of course it's partiallynationalistic, she's Libyan, she
lives between Cairo and London.
We have all these.
(26:36):
There are so many touch pointsof our stories that are the same
and I love that, but of courseshe's wildly talented.
Love that, but of course she'swildly talented.
I mean, she is just, you know,an incredible star of, you know,
this generation and that'scoming up in the art world and
thankfully institutions haverecognized that.
Um, but it was also, you know, Iput her in touch with, like I
(26:56):
did a, I did a talk and, um,kind of a platform for her.
Then somebody who I invited tothat then made a studio visit
and out of that came the one ofthe major acquisitions during
freeze last year.
So you know that was a directintroduction and a direct
connection and sometimes thatworks, sometimes it doesn't work
(27:17):
, you know.
Sometimes you know somebody'snot interested or they don't see
it.
But I think it's just reallybeing able to see.
And you know, I have been toldHans Ulrich Oberst has said that
I am the ultimate junctionmaker and I would thank you, I
would embrace that title andthat moniker, because that is
(27:41):
also.
It's a talent, but it's alsosomething that you work on and
hone.
I am always looking at who canI matchmake, who can I put
together Romantically.
Only once have I beensuccessful in creating a
marriage, but you know, once ispretty good.
But I have had dozens, if nothundreds, of successful matches
(28:05):
made professionally and I amvery, very proud of that.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So the ultimate junction maker.
I love that.
That's a really fascinatingtitle, I think.
So my next kind of question foryou and one of our last
questions on the podcast is, ofcourse, regarding your work in
Saudi Arabia is, of course,regarding your work in Saudi
Arabia, I think you've been verymuch a key figure in telling
the stories, in telling thisstory not only, but obviously a
senior advisor to Saudi Arabia'sMinistry of Culture, which is
(28:32):
an incredible position, and thiscountry really has gone through
a cultural renaissance.
We can call it that, and notonly that.
You're involved with the DeraaBiennale as well as the MISC
Arts Institute.
Then Only that you're involvedwith the Deraa Biennale as well
as the MISC Arts Institute.
Then, of course, you wrote thebook co-authored Arts in Saudi
Arabia A New Creative Economywith Rebecca.
So this is a lot of work thatyou've done with and in parallel
(28:54):
to what was going on in SaudiArabia over the past few years.
How does it feel to have beenpart of this kind of major
cultural renaissance and whatmade you dive in so far as to
write this book that I think?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
is the first of its kind, thank you.
My passion for the arts ofSaudi Arabia stems from my
passion for the arts of theregion and stems from my passion
for connecting artists and theart world globally.
And I was in London, you know,in a very particular moment.
It was early in my career, itwas the first year I was working
(29:29):
, just after this wonderful,famous Siwa project with the
Kabakovs and Edge of Arabia hadjust started and I was, somebody
came into my office and askedme one of the only other Arab
women who was working in the artworld happened to meet one of
the people who was in theorganization and she said oh,
(29:51):
you know, can you take thismeeting?
Like, there's this neworganization, they need some
help.
And she wasn't very involved inwhat was happening in the
Middle East or in the Gulf and Ialways was very interested.
You know, I was the first, youknow, board member of Art Dubai,
helped start the art fair andagain, that was also somebody
who was, like you know, put infront of me and asked to meet me
(30:11):
.
And you know I took the meeting.
I really deeply believe that.
You know you take every meeting.
You know whether or not thatperson you know impresses you or
it turns into something.
You know, I believe in givingpeople time because people have
given me time and I want to giveback.
So you know, those were kind oftwo seminal moments of you know
, taking a meeting and thendiving in, and so, edge of
(30:34):
Arabia, I, you know, thenintroduced them to one of my
best friends who ended upbecoming their creative director
, who really then took them tolike new heights in terms of
their international engagement.
Then I mean their creativedirector, who really then took
them to new heights in terms oftheir international engagement.
Then I joined, they started andwe started an international
advisory board and this was allunpaid, volunteer work alongside
(30:55):
my day job, which was workingat the gallery as an artistic
director, as an artistic liaisonand director of all of our
artists' relationships, and itgrew from there and I became
very passionate about what'shappening in Saudi.
I also, I think, like you knowmany people and sometimes you
know when you just get soirritated by people's prejudice.
You know the art world and somany people who I deeply
(31:16):
respected were so prejudicedagainst Saudi and just
absolutely didn't even want tohear that there were artists in
this country and I just thoughtthat that was so crazy.
Right, and I, you know, again,like I said, I dove in and I
gave it my all and I just feltlike I should support you know
what was happening and supportthe artists in this movement.
(31:38):
And eventually, you know, theSaudi Art Council was formed.
We had 2139 every year.
And eventually, you know, theSaudi Art Council was formed, we
had 2139 every year.
And you know, I was invited tocome back and visit, invited to
do talks with them and just, youknow, be a friend in a way to
the Saudi Art Council.
And then, when the Ministry ofCulture was announced and
started, I was the first advisorhired.
(31:59):
You know, there was a kind oflong talk back and forth about
whether or not I would take afull-time role.
And you know, move to Riyadh.
But my, you know, I kind ofconvinced myself like it's not
that I wouldn't want to, it'sthat my strength is being on the
outside.
You know, my strength is, youknow, bringing people together.
And if I'm, you know, and I'malso not super administratively
talented or bureaucraticallytalented, you know that would
(32:23):
all just be lost there for me,you know, and my talents
wouldn't be used the way theyshould and my strengths wouldn't
be used the way they should.
So, yeah, we've come to now,this wonderful moment where I'm,
you know, workingprofessionally but also very
passionately and, you know,really so excited to see all the
(32:44):
fruits of everyone's years ofstruggle and years of work.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I think it's very interesting that you said that a
lot of people did not want toreceive this whole shift and
kind of the revelation of theart world in Saudi Arabia in
general.
But I think even just fromattending your talk at Al-Sidqal
Avenue, just as one example, Imean everyone is extremely
curious about the book.
The book is doing incredibleand the questions you know you
(33:11):
can tell that the amount ofcuriosity, the amount of
interest now is just palpable.
And so I think one of my lastquestions for you, alia, is you
know you're the foundingchairperson of the K11
International Council and amember of the Tate Modern
Advisory Council and so manymore.
So I just want to know how isit that you kind of balance if
(33:33):
there is such a thing as abalance, you know kind of the
regional representation, becauseyou are such a incredibly
powerful like regional figure inthe art world now as well as
being such an international artfigure at Art Basel etc.
Is there a balance, or do youkind of now do people understand
that you are one of those rareplayers in the industry that can
(33:57):
traverse both?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
worlds.
I believe I am everythingeverywhere all at once.
Um, I don't know if everyoneunderstands that and I think
actually there is a lot still ofmisperception.
It's like, no, but you're doingthis.
No, you can't put me in a likeyou know, trying to put me in a
box.
Um, I recently had a work callthat was very much that, and I
(34:20):
was like no, that's, it'simpossible.
Because you know I can wake upto a message from you know an
artist asking me for help for aproject in Portugal, and you
know, if I'm able to and ofcourse I'll always respond, and
if I'm able to, I will I canequally wake up to, you know,
multiple emails, like thismorning about like a K-11.
We're doing like a majorproject with Hanselwork Oberst
(34:41):
about gaming, and then I'mputting them in touch with a
woman I know in London whosehusband is in gaming.
And then, of course, all ofthis simultaneously right now,
because we're two weeks awayfrom the opening of the Islamic
Arts Biennale waking up to likedozens of messages and emails
from people planning their trip.
So, yeah, you know it'severything everywhere all at
(35:03):
once.
And yesterday I was on an AspenArt Museum call.
I've just recently been invitedto join their air circle, where
they're really trying to thinkof a moment of convening and
almost a summit, where artistsare really put at the forefront
and where Aspen's great historyas being an intellectual center
also includes artists.
(35:24):
And so you know that covers, Ithink, almost every geography
except for South America,because, equally, just now, as
I'm talking to you, I haveseveral emails from about 154 in
Marrakesh, the African Art Fair, where I'm a founding board
member and I'm going and I'mhosting the Tate and Guggenheim
(35:44):
there and we're doing anincredible series of activations
and artist studio visits and,of course, gallery visits, and
they are all super, superexcited to come and experience
African art.
Many of them, of course, knowand know the region, but
actually the kind of chiefcurator is coming from the
Guggenheim has never been toNorth Africa and so it's really
(36:07):
exciting for me to be able toreveal that to her.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, I think it's a.
You really are one of thoseindividuals that you know, if
you get the pleasure to meet orlisten to or read more about.
I think you have effectivelykind of broken that whole you
know barrier or mold or whateverit is that you need to have
that one title or you need to bethat one thing be put in a box,
(36:32):
and I think that is kind ofthat is the question of our
generation.
Really, it's something that wetalk about a lot on the podcast
is that you can be severalthings at once, and that's
that's exactly how it is thatyou, you know, grow and develop.
So my final question for you,alia, before our curation or are
curated by Alia at it is whatadvice do you have for someone
(36:54):
who wants to get into the artworld, not as an artist, not as
a gallerist, but perhaps as acurator or consultant?
What character traits do youfeel is what interests me the
most?
Someone needs to have to bepart of this industry.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
You need to engage, you need to be persistent and
you need to follow up and youneed to show up.
You know, I think one of thenumber one things I always say
is you need to show up, you needto go to openings, you need to
go to art fairs, you need to goto museums, you need to go to
meetings.
You to go to art fairs, youneed to go to museums, you need
to go to meetings.
You know, as I said, whenpeople ask me, you know, the
other night I went to an artiststudio.
(37:31):
He's a young libyan artist.
Um, we met because I'd somehowcome across his uh, his, he'd
done a show at a small non inSouth London and actually I had
sent sent someone to go see itbecause I wasn't here at the
time.
I ended up, I think, catchinglike the last day of it.
But I read the brochure and youknow, I just reached out and I
(37:53):
said, oh, I'm Libyan and youknow, congratulations on your
show.
And in the end, you know, Iinvited him to things and he
came and actually did my talkfor Nourjaouda and he came to
another talk I did at the ICAand he really impressed me with,
you know, just being super withit and being very engaging with
(38:13):
me and responding, and then wasvery persistent in inviting me
to his studio.
I mean sent me I can't tell youhow many emails I was traveling
and this and that and Icouldn't make the time.
It was an hour to get from myhouse to his studio.
Um, you know, and during areally busy time of year for me,
like kind of November, december, that's like a very difficult
thing to be able to include whenit's not along the route of
(38:36):
like I can't like add threethings within that, right, it's
like very isolated.
So I ended up going you, it'slike, you know, january.
(38:56):
I got back on Saturday from theholidays and I went to see him
on Monday and I was so happy Iwas there.
He was so impressive, soarticulate.
You know, it was so interestingalso to see the studio space.
It's called Set London.
It was like in an old mothercare.
They like kind of converted itinto artist studios and I was
like how did I ever doubt that Iwanted to come and do this?
So he, you know, kind offurther, and every time this
happens to me, by the way, often, and every time I, you know, I
(39:19):
kind of go and I'm like why didI not do this before?
So I'm, you know, very happyfor people to be persistent.
I am that same person, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes
it doesn't.
Sometimes it also doesn'treally culturally translate.
I think certain countries don'tappreciate that and they kind
of think if they're notresponding to you, it means they
(39:39):
don't want to talk to you.
But you know, how do you knowthat?
I would say go for it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I love that.
I think that's like the perfectadvice because, truly, I think
that is the key and okay, so mylast question for you is curated
by Alia, which is basically,what is your life curation?
Like sort of life hacks,routines, products, things that
you have in your life, that sortof elevate your life, that make
it a little better, that youwould share with our audience?
(40:09):
Just like a couple of thingsthat come to mind.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
It can be anything Korean skincare number one,
Definitely Yearly, if not twicea year, visit to Korea to see my
incredible friends there, who Ilove very much in Seoul and
going to this kind of spa placecalled Chaum that does the most
(40:32):
incredible face massagetreatment.
The whole thing Wonderful.
Recommend it to everyone.
It's not invasive, it's justlike a kind of incredibly
elevated facial and then I'mvery good with my self-care and
I think you know as much aswe're talking right now about
art and, like you know, our lifecuration.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
My audience will write them down and actually go.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, you know, number one like I love my life,
I of of course have challenges.
I of course have, you know,down moments.
I am deeply grateful to mytherapist.
I'm deeply grateful to myfriends who, before I had a
therapist were my therapists and, you know, to my mom, who is
and always will be my also extratherapist and cheerleader and
(41:20):
biggest critic, and all of ityou know I love very much.
But I think you know you alwaysneed a person, right?
That's the number one thing.
You need a person in your lifewho is that person, or several
people.
And then I see great arts, whichyou know is now proven more and
more and more that arts andbeing surrounded by the arts and
seeing art is great for mentalhealth.
(41:42):
Actually, jameel has a JameelArt and Health Lab.
They're trying to define thatmore, improve that more, so that
people and societies acceptthat and give funding to art
spaces so that people have thatoutlet.
I believe that deeply.
I think you know, in some of mymost you know, kind of down and
(42:04):
sad or depressing moments, youknow, being in a beautiful
museum or interacting with agreat artist or a great curator
or a great patron has been sucha way of making me feel better.
And then you know, to be moredefinitive, what those hacks are
.
Indeed, korean skincare, justenjoying those little things.
(42:29):
Like I said, my morning walksare very important to me.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Really a big part of my life and my mental health.
Action.
Welcome to the Curation, a showfor the culturally curious.
This is your host, noor Hassan.
Each week, I'll guide youthrough a curated edit of the
finest in art, fashion, design,culture, luxury, wellness, tech
and more.
This is your go-to space fordiscovering trailblazing ideas,
untold stories and meaningfulconversations with innovators
(00:30):
and creators who are shaping ourworld.
There's no gatekeeping here, sosit back, tune in and let's
discover only the best.
In this episode, I speak to DrPrincess Alia El-Sinousi.
(00:51):
Alia is a globally renownedmember of the contemporary art
world, with a focus on culturalstrategy and patronage systems.
The reason I really wanted tointerview Alia for the Curation
podcast is because she'sconsidered one of the foremost
figures in contemporary art ofour generation.
She's served as Art Basel's UKand MENA representative for over
(01:12):
a decade and is currently theSenior Advisor International
Outreach for Art Basel.
In 2019, she was appointedSenior Advisor to the Ministry
of Culture, Saudi Arabia, whereshe focuses on developing
international partnerships,while working on a variety of
projects in Saudi Arabia theFormisk Institute, the Ministry
of Culture and the Dariya BienAli Foundation.
Dr Ali was previously avisiting lecturer at Brown
(01:34):
University Watson Institute,working primarily with the
Middle East Studies program.
She also is currently thefounding chairperson of the K11
International Council, a memberof the Tate Modern Advisory
Council in London, the Board ofTrustees of the ICA London, the
Strategic Advisory Panel of theDelfina Foundation London, as
(01:54):
well as many more incredibleachievements and titles that
she's amassed over the years.
Most recently, dr Alia has beenappointed to the Ishara
Foundation Advisory Board.
In this episode, we discusseverything from.
Dr Alia has been appointed tothe Ishara Foundation Advisory
Board.
In this episode, we discusseverything from Dr Alia's
morning routine to how it is.
She traverses the liminal linesbetween the global, regional
(02:16):
and local art world.
It's a fascinating episode andI hope you enjoy.
So, without further ado, thisis my conversation with Dr
Princess Alia El-Sinoussi.
Hey, everyone, right now I'mspeaking to Princess Dr Alia
(02:40):
El-Sinoussi, and it's an honorto be speaking to you today.
It's an honor to have you on mypodcast.
You're actually a guest thathas been really on my bucket
list for a couple of years now.
I'm not sure if you know this,valia, thank you truly and then
and we met serendipitously atishara art foundation, um in
(03:01):
dubai a couple of months ago andI fully like ran after you
after the talk and I really justwanted to make sure to have you
on the podcast because I knowthat my audience would love to
hear more about your work.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Thank you so much for inviting me and indeed it was
such a kind of fortuitous momentwalking in there at Ischata and
, you know, meeting you.
It was actually my first tourthere after being asked to be on
the advisory board, and thenthey said they had another
special guest that they wereworking with.
So yeah, it was just perfect.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Interesting.
I love that.
So our first question on thepodcast on the curation is kind
of a signature question for me,which is I like to ask my guest
who is Alia al-Sinoussi today?
So if you have to describeyourself in this moment in time
and I know you have many titleswhich are incredible and we'll
(03:57):
get into them, but who?
Who would you say you are today?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I am somebody who is deeply committed to the arts, to
what art means to the world, towhat art means to humanity, and
I think that has been somethingthat is the common thread
throughout all the phases of mycareer and my adult life, which
you know.
My very first job was workingin the art world and where I
really found my calling and mypassion job was working in the
(04:25):
art world and where I reallyfound my calling and my passion,
and I would say, even more sotoday as we see the world that I
had.
So, you know, kind of thoughtthat I lived in this
cosmopolitan, multiculturalworld in a way kind of crumbling
around us but at the same time,the arts to me are the only way
we can get through this momentand hopefully build what we
(04:47):
would wish to see.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's a beautiful answer, and I think that it kind
of really sets up the stage foreverything we'll speak about on
this episode.
And so our second question thatI love to ask and I feel it
tells me kind of a lot about myguest is what's your morning
routine, so when you wake up?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
in the morning.
What are all of the things thatyou do that kind of set you up
for the day.
Well, as we are in on January8th, you know, the first week of
January, I, like many people inthe world and on a workout kick
, and so I wake up and I willeither go to a spin class or a
Pilates class and, you know,kind of continue my day from
there.
But actually prior to that Iwake up and you know, I know
(05:33):
it's a horrible habit, butobviously the first thing I do
is reach for my phone.
I answer all of my WhatsApps,then I go through all my emails
and invariably, because I'm inso many different time zones and
I also amably because I'm in somany different time zones and I
also am in contact with peoplein so many different time zones
I have a lot to catch up on.
And then during the year, myday actually, yeah, always
(05:55):
starts with my phone.
I'm gonna be honest and I'm suremy audience are gonna, you know
, laugh and say the same, butalso many will reprimand me for
that, including my own mother.
But you know, and then itstarts you know, typical, I
think, like many people a bottleof water, a coffee, and I try
(06:16):
to get out for my first meetingand try to walk to my first
meeting.
And I find that I live inLondon and it's very refreshing.
And even when I'm kind ofduring a major art moment or an
art fair moment, um, you know,especially in places like Miami,
I really love that morning walkin the great out of doors in
Miami around this amazing beachboardwalk.
(06:37):
Here in London we have allthese parks and I love that
moment of contemplation and justthat breath of fresh air and
and kind of being part of theworld.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, I love that.
And would you say that you'remore of a morning person or
you've become a morning personover the years?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
So I definitely think like my like in terms of work
wise, absolutely, I am the mostproductive in the mornings in
terms of, you know, likethoughtful emails, writing.
I am right now on a majordeadline for an essay and that
is definitely like it needs tobe done in the first half of my
day, but I am also, you know,just invariably because of my
(07:18):
commitments and all of thethings I do.
Work for me really is also inthe evening, but that's more
interacting with artists, goingto openings, going to dinners,
you know, meeting people, youknow, and that you know.
Of course it's super fun and Ilove what I do and I actually
have so much fun doing what I do.
But it's work and you knowthat's also, you know.
(07:39):
So I'd say my day is splitmorning and evening.
Between the two types of twosides of my work.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
My day is split morning evening between the two
types of two sides of my work.
Yeah, that's a superinteresting juxtaposition of,
like what we do.
Essentially, you have to beproductive in the morning, but a
lot of what goes on in the artworld is essentially like things
that do happen, events that arelater in the day, et cetera.
So that's a really good point.
And you're incredible atanswering emails Like.
(08:06):
I've never really met someoneso like efficient at answering
emails, like.
Even when you're Art Basel,you're like I'm in Miami, I'll
get back to you.
I love it.
It was fantastic, all right.
So your journey in thecontemporary art world has been
honestly quite extraordinary.
You know, can you shareinitially what drew you to this
(08:27):
field, just how it all started?
Just very briefly for theaudience, because ever since
then there have been manyiterations of your career.
But what was the beginningpoint that you can pinpoint?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
So when I was in university I studied
international relations andMiddle East studies and I was
always really fascinated withthe way in which the world
worked, connecting people fromdifferent parts of the world,
connecting communities.
Because I am somebody who's youknow, I call myself a third
culture kid.
You know there was afascinating article by another
(09:04):
fantastic journalist called NoorBrara for the New York Times
describing what a third culturekid is, and actually she also
did a feature on me for Artnet.
That's probably one of the bestwritten features on me.
She really got me and then Iunderstood that because she
herself was also like me, andwhen she wrote the New York
Times it was about LucaGuadagnino's TV show and about
(09:27):
the way in which we perhaps growup and how we bring together
our various influences forsomebody like me.
So I'm half Libyan, halfAmerican.
My father's family are veryLibyan, you know.
Had left Libya, lived in Cairo.
I lived with them.
There are very Libyan, you know.
Had left Libya, lived in Cairo.
I lived with them there.
My father kind of grew upbetween Rome after they had left
(09:48):
Libya and he was 12 years old.
My mother was American, veryAmerican, grew up in Minnesota.
I then lived with her in the USbut then traveled to see my
father and his family.
So I lived between these twovery different worlds.
I didn't live in like an Arabfamily in America.
You know, it's a different, youknow kind of a different
concept.
So then, you know, I went awayto school.
(10:10):
I went to boarding school, Iwent to, then back to the US
University, but within a veryinternational community, at
Brown.
Brown is a very internationalschool and because I'd gone in
from an international school, Ithen was, you know, kind of
grouped together with theinternational students.
Of course also had, you know,many American friends.
So my world was always likepiecing together these parts and
(10:32):
I became very interested inwhat artists do, how culture is
translated.
And I was, you know, inuniversity during 9-11, and
there was so muchmisunderstanding and so much
misinformation and then, ofcourse, arabs and Arabic
(10:53):
countries, especially at thattime Saudi Arabia, were trying
to really explain who they were.
You know, not everyone ispainted with one brush.
Not everyone is painted withone brush.
And so then I moved to Londonand, just by chance, a friend of
mine from university, her momwas a collector and was very
deeply involved in the art world.
(11:14):
Funnily enough, I just ran intoher on the street yesterday.
I don't see her that often butshe's this wonderful, wonderful
woman.
So you know, it's like all myworld coming together that we're
talking about her today.
And she said there's thisamazing project in Siwa in Egypt
and I think you know you shouldgo do that.
Don't do your don't.
I was doing a summer internshipat Goldman Sachs.
(11:34):
She was like I don't see you asan investment bank, wow.
Very different, very different,yeah, exactly.
And I was like really, andshe's like, yes, just go do this
.
Like go talk to the, the, the,the it was a gallery that was
putting it together um, who havethe house and kind of, uh,
sponsor the project.
And so I go um into thismeeting.
(11:55):
You know I'm 22 years old andum, the gallers hires me right
away.
It took some time, and so forall of you in the audience, I,
whenever I do any calls andmentorship of young people, I
say you have to be persistent.
I wrote him at the time, youknow, a cover letter.
I sent it in the mail, I handdelivered it.
No response.
I sent him an email no response, like second or third email.
(12:18):
Okay, yeah, come in for a.
Sorry, you know haven't gottenback to you.
Come in for an interview.
So you know, haven't gottenback to you.
Come in for an interview.
So you know, you just kind ofpolitely persist and you know
you'll get your meeting or maybeyou won't, but you know, at
least you've tried.
And so it was funny he had tosay I'm still very close to him.
(12:39):
Michael Q Williams, hediscovered my cover letter when
he was like moving offices a fewyears ago.
He sent me a picture of it andI mean, let me just say I was
slightly embarrassed, but youknow, I was 22 years old.
But it was like dear mister, Iwould like to introduce myself,
but it was like lovely.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But I love that.
That's just like the nice thing.
22 and feeling like I guess you.
So where do you get thispersistence from?
Is it from your mother, yourfather?
Your upbringing that sort ofhad you interact with a plethora
of people.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I think it's.
It was the upbringing, like, ifI look at, you know, kind of
neither my mother or my fatherare, let's say, my like people
who mentored me professionally.
I mean, they've both beenextremely supportive of my
professional life, um, but, youknow, have not taken the same
path.
I have, Um, my grandfather, my,my maternal grandfather, um,
you know, have not taken thesame path.
I have my grandfather, mymaternal grandfather, you know,
was somebody who really believedin hard work.
(13:30):
You know, one of his favoritephrases was you must be a
productive member of society,you know, in all ways, and kind
of give back.
You know you vote, you, payyour taxes.
You, you know you work, yousupport your community, pay your
taxes.
You, you know you work, yousupport your community.
So I think that was somethingthat was deeply ingrained in me.
And then, I mean, the rest ofit just kind of fell into place.
(13:52):
You know, I'm an only child.
I have a younger half brother,but we didn't grow up together
and, you know, just kind ofgetting through things on my own
, but with loving support frommy family and friends.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And I find it fascinating that you not only
kind of started your career atthis project but you went on so
far as to do a PhD eventually,right In politics and exploring
sort of cultural strategy.
Can I ask you what made youactually end up doing a PhD?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Um, two factors really.
Uh, and, to be totally honest,part of it was that people and
still to a certain extent, youknow, I have like a
misperception of me and my lifeand my work Less so now because
I've established myself, I thinkand thank you so much for your
(14:51):
very kind introduction.
You know, I think peoplerespect me and what I do and
I've worked hard for that.
But people still look at me andwill say, oh, but she's having
so much fun.
You know, that's just like fun,like she just like travels
around the world and like, oh,she just goes to dinners or you
know whatever.
But what I do is work and Ireally believe that.
(15:11):
I actually have a friend in NewYork and I really respect how
she describes what she does.
She said, son, I can't eventell you how many boards.
She is deeply involved in theinternational community, but
especially the New York artcommunity, and when she talks to
her young daughters she's likemommy's going to work, she's
going to a gala benefit, she'sgoing to a dinner, it's work.
(15:33):
And that is like what we do andhow we, you know, produce and
support and give back and how wework within this art world
ecosystem.
So I kind of wanted to you knowat the time redefine to people.
You know that I wasn't justthis, you know, young socialite
swanning around with a couple offancy titles.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
It was much more than that Because I think it's
interesting, because even for meI feel very similarly, as well
as a lot of my audience.
When you work in the creativeindustries, especially on social
media, your life can seem likeit's very.
There's certain elements thatseem glamorous, that seem like
it isn't work, that seem like,for example, it is a lot of
(16:18):
socializing and networking andthere is a purpose to everything
that you do if you're doing itright.
So you ended up in PhD, to sortof say.
Not only is this work, not onlydo I take it seriously, but I'm
effectively making majorchanges and shifts and I'm in
this dialogue major changes andshifts in our dialogue.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yes, and I think also I'm taking this seriously.
But I also think that we cananalyze things seriously and I
really do believe in like acritical, academic approach to
the arts, to work to what I doand in what comes from you know
academia and I think also fromyou know you have these like
incredible writers and criticsin the world.
(17:04):
You know we can take a kind ofself-assessment and we can kind
of look at the work that we aredoing and redefine it.
Of course it should be lots offun and I am lucky that I take
great joy and great pleasure inthe art world and interacting
with the art world.
I, you know, of course, getexhausted like the next person
(17:24):
and I can't go 365 days a yearbut I can almost do that.
And then, you know, I take afew was about, you know, proving
something, but also provingsomething to myself and really,
(17:44):
you know, kind of looking at theworld in the art world in a
different way.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Right and I think that essentially now, when, when
anyone reads your title, Ithink it's quite, it's, uh, it's
quite an incredible fascinatingtitle.
You are, you know, dr Aliaal-Sinoussi.
You're also Princess Aliaal-Sinoussi.
You do not have a social mediapresence, which is extremely
(18:14):
fascinating because even forsomeone like me who, before
meeting you, I wanted to kind ofresearch, you Google, you
figure out, um, you know, kindof like learn more about you,
and I found that you don't havea social media.
So it's obviously easy to learnmore about you because there's
like millions of articles andinterviews and podcasts, etc.
But is there a reason for this?
I mean, just before recording,I asked you and I'd love to know
(18:35):
.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So was it intentional not to be part of social media,
very reticent of having mywhole life be so open to the
world?
In a way, I'm not a veryprivate person, Like I'm very
open book.
I'm very happy to talk topeople about you know, my life,
my struggles, my, you know who Iam, but in another way I like
(19:14):
to keep things in a very, youknow, closed circle and not
publish it to the world.
I was on a small world.
I would say that that'sprobably the only social media
thing that I've ever had.
And then, yeah, Facebook, no,and then definitely no Instagram
(19:34):
.
I love like chat and I hope.
Sometimes people call WhatsAppsocial media.
I personally don't callWhatsApp social media because
it's only for your context orpeople who connect to you.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, I mean, I don't .
I don't, it would count as such,Not really.
So, yeah, I think for me it wasjust very much about you know
(20:11):
who I am and being able to keepthat for myself social media but
simultaneously have such aprominent presence online
Because, like you said, I don'tI would not call you a private
person.
I think you you really arequite incredibly approachable,
social etc.
But and it is so incrediblethat you can find so much
(20:33):
information about your workonline but you don't have
Instagram, which, in my opinion,kind of adds such a nuanced
layer, to be honest, to the workthat you do, especially in your
field.
So I'd love to get into just mynext question, which is you've
been a key part of in Art Baselin general it's kind of this
(20:55):
whole world and so what havebeen the most transformative
moments during this time there,especially since you are
representing sort of the UK andthe MENA region?
How has it been being such arepresentative and such a key
person?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I really believe in the role of the gallery in the
art world and what the gallerymeans to the art world ecosystem
.
And I am so proud that ArtBasel is an organization that so
deeply supports galleries andthen supports them to help their
artists and support theirartists.
You know, artists are, you know, the fundamental nucleus of the
(21:37):
art world and to me, galleries,representing their estates, you
know, for artists who are nolonger with us, or representing
living artists, are the conduitsby which they can get that
message out into the world.
And you know, within our Baseluniverse, we now have four fairs
.
You know, when I started, itwas with Sam Keller, the
(21:57):
legendary director, who expandedthis.
You know, when I started it waswith Sam Keller, the legendary
director who expanded this, youknow, wonderful but small niche
show in Basel, switzerland, toMiami.
I started when we had Miami andI actually got hired when we
were in Miami and I'll neverforget the joy of that moment,
wow, yeah, yeah, it was reallyreally very special.
And I'll say, actually with Sam.
(22:19):
I was at dinner and Sam, youknow, I was like oh my God.
You know, he kind of came up tome and I was sitting actually
at the time with my mother.
It was, you know, thanksgivingweekend and she was just about
to leave and I was justfinishing up and then starting a
work week and I just said, ohmy God, sam, this is my mom.
Like you know, I just got this.
You know she knew, I knew Ijust got it.
I was like this is the man whojust hired me and I was like,
(22:41):
thank you so much.
My mom was like, oh, thank youso much.
My daughter's so excited.
He's like, well, we're just sohappy to have her come official
title but also to be paid forwhat you do.
(23:03):
And I think that you know thereis a misconception in the art
world of paid and unpaid work.
The work that I do forinstitutions is, of course,
unpaid, you know, like for Tate,and of course people do work
for those institutions, but theyare in full-time positions and
are paid to do, you know, theirjob and their role.
My role with Tate or Guggenheimand others is the opposite,
(23:26):
right, but then my work with ArtBasel and in Saudi is, of
course, out of passion and outof love, but it's also a
different type of work.
It's, you know, remunerated andI think that's really important
and I would say that likehaving that moment of validation
was a really special time.
And then you know, from there Iwas, I was a representative for
(23:50):
the MENA region, then took overthe UK and then was appointed
as a senior advisor, really forkind of all aspects of our
international outreach, becauseof my passion and my presence in
so many of our key markets.
You know, I'm a you know, Ithink, almost an honorary Hong
Konger at this point.
I absolutely love Hong Kong.
(24:11):
I think it is one of the mostspecial cities in the world and
I am so happy and honored andpleased to work there.
I'm on several differentcommittees.
I'm now the chairman of the K11International Council.
You know work with the DesignTrust.
You know, every year actuallyit was almost an auctioneer last
year which was deeply scarybeing up there on stage, and you
(24:37):
know, I just I love it and Ilove all these places and all
the people of these places.
And of course, now we have Paris.
Paris has been a reallywonderful journey.
I was spending quite a bit oftime in Paris over the last
couple of years when we madethat announcement, and doing a
lot in the city and, you know,kind of trying to create this
international feeling there andof people who you know and, of
course, for the Middle East,it's such a, you know, kind of
(24:58):
trying to create thisinternational feeling there, and
of people who you know and, ofcourse, for the Middle East,
it's such a, you know, great hub.
You know, like so many, so manyArabs you know, have such an
affinity to Paris.
You know, either remember itfrom family or have family ties
there.
Yes, of course, from NorthAfrica, but also from across the
Gulf, so and of course, lebanonand Syria.
You know there's just that tie.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I think it's interesting because, other than
Art Basel and obviously you know, in our introduction for this
episode it's going to be a verylong introduction, alia, because
you sit on a lot of boards,because we do the intro
separately, so everyone willhear all of this before
listening to the episode I amcurious to ask you so, as a
member of all of these globaladvisory boards, how do you
(25:43):
balance sort of fosteringemerging talent and youth with
preserving cultural heritage?
I kind of feel that you do both.
You're very much in tune withwhat's happening in the now and
the contemporary, but also youare a major player in preserving
cultural heritage, tellingthese stories and we'll get into
Saudi Arabia next so how do youkind of keep that balance going
(26:07):
and make sure that you knowyou're always traversing both?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I think it's just, you know, having a open and
curious mind.
You know, I'm equally happy tolook at the work of a young
artist, for example, like NoorJauda, and be so proud of her.
And of course it's partiallynationalistic, she's Libyan, she
lives between Cairo and London.
We have all these.
(26:36):
There are so many touch pointsof our stories that are the same
and I love that, but of courseshe's wildly talented.
Love that, but of course she'swildly talented.
I mean, she is just, you know,an incredible star of, you know,
this generation and that'scoming up in the art world and
thankfully institutions haverecognized that.
Um, but it was also, you know, Iput her in touch with, like I
(26:56):
did a, I did a talk and, um,kind of a platform for her.
Then somebody who I invited tothat then made a studio visit
and out of that came the one ofthe major acquisitions during
freeze last year.
So you know that was a directintroduction and a direct
connection and sometimes thatworks, sometimes it doesn't work
(27:17):
, you know.
Sometimes you know somebody'snot interested or they don't see
it.
But I think it's just reallybeing able to see.
And you know, I have been toldHans Ulrich Oberst has said that
I am the ultimate junctionmaker and I would thank you, I
would embrace that title andthat moniker, because that is
(27:41):
also.
It's a talent, but it's alsosomething that you work on and
hone.
I am always looking at who canI matchmake, who can I put
together Romantically.
Only once have I beensuccessful in creating a
marriage, but you know, once ispretty good.
But I have had dozens, if nothundreds, of successful matches
(28:05):
made professionally and I amvery, very proud of that.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So the ultimate junction maker.
I love that.
That's a really fascinatingtitle, I think.
So my next kind of question foryou and one of our last
questions on the podcast is, ofcourse, regarding your work in
Saudi Arabia is, of course,regarding your work in Saudi
Arabia, I think you've been verymuch a key figure in telling
the stories, in telling thisstory not only, but obviously a
senior advisor to Saudi Arabia'sMinistry of Culture, which is
(28:32):
an incredible position, and thiscountry really has gone through
a cultural renaissance.
We can call it that, and notonly that.
You're involved with the DeraaBiennale as well as the MISC
Arts Institute.
Then Only that you're involvedwith the Deraa Biennale as well
as the MISC Arts Institute.
Then, of course, you wrote thebook co-authored Arts in Saudi
Arabia A New Creative Economywith Rebecca.
So this is a lot of work thatyou've done with and in parallel
(28:54):
to what was going on in SaudiArabia over the past few years.
How does it feel to have beenpart of this kind of major
cultural renaissance and whatmade you dive in so far as to
write this book that I think?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
is the first of its kind, thank you.
My passion for the arts ofSaudi Arabia stems from my
passion for the arts of theregion and stems from my passion
for connecting artists and theart world globally.
And I was in London, you know,in a very particular moment.
It was early in my career, itwas the first year I was working
(29:29):
, just after this wonderful,famous Siwa project with the
Kabakovs and Edge of Arabia hadjust started and I was, somebody
came into my office and askedme one of the only other Arab
women who was working in the artworld happened to meet one of
the people who was in theorganization and she said oh,
(29:51):
you know, can you take thismeeting?
Like, there's this neworganization, they need some
help.
And she wasn't very involved inwhat was happening in the
Middle East or in the Gulf and Ialways was very interested.
You know, I was the first, youknow, board member of Art Dubai,
helped start the art fair andagain, that was also somebody
who was, like you know, put infront of me and asked to meet me
(30:11):
.
And you know I took the meeting.
I really deeply believe that.
You know you take every meeting.
You know whether or not thatperson you know impresses you or
it turns into something.
You know, I believe in givingpeople time because people have
given me time and I want to giveback.
So you know, those were kind oftwo seminal moments of you know
, taking a meeting and thendiving in, and so, edge of
(30:34):
Arabia, I, you know, thenintroduced them to one of my
best friends who ended upbecoming their creative director
, who really then took them tolike new heights in terms of
their international engagement.
Then I mean their creativedirector, who really then took
them to new heights in terms oftheir international engagement.
Then I joined, they started andwe started an international
advisory board and this was allunpaid, volunteer work alongside
(30:55):
my day job, which was workingat the gallery as an artistic
director, as an artistic liaisonand director of all of our
artists' relationships, and itgrew from there and I became
very passionate about what'shappening in Saudi.
I also, I think, like you knowmany people and sometimes you
know when you just get soirritated by people's prejudice.
You know the art world and somany people who I deeply
(31:16):
respected were so prejudicedagainst Saudi and just
absolutely didn't even want tohear that there were artists in
this country and I just thoughtthat that was so crazy.
Right, and I, you know, again,like I said, I dove in and I
gave it my all and I just feltlike I should support you know
what was happening and supportthe artists in this movement.
(31:38):
And eventually, you know, theSaudi Art Council was formed.
We had 2139 every year.
And eventually, you know, theSaudi Art Council was formed, we
had 2139 every year.
And you know, I was invited tocome back and visit, invited to
do talks with them and just, youknow, be a friend in a way to
the Saudi Art Council.
And then, when the Ministry ofCulture was announced and
started, I was the first advisorhired.
(31:59):
You know, there was a kind oflong talk back and forth about
whether or not I would take afull-time role.
And you know, move to Riyadh.
But my, you know, I kind ofconvinced myself like it's not
that I wouldn't want to, it'sthat my strength is being on the
outside.
You know, my strength is, youknow, bringing people together.
And if I'm, you know, and I'malso not super administratively
talented or bureaucraticallytalented, you know that would
(32:23):
all just be lost there for me,you know, and my talents
wouldn't be used the way theyshould and my strengths wouldn't
be used the way they should.
So, yeah, we've come to now,this wonderful moment where I'm,
you know, workingprofessionally but also very
passionately and, you know,really so excited to see all the
(32:44):
fruits of everyone's years ofstruggle and years of work.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I think it's very interesting that you said that a
lot of people did not want toreceive this whole shift and
kind of the revelation of theart world in Saudi Arabia in
general.
But I think even just fromattending your talk at Al-Sidqal
Avenue, just as one example, Imean everyone is extremely
curious about the book.
The book is doing incredibleand the questions you know you
(33:11):
can tell that the amount ofcuriosity, the amount of
interest now is just palpable.
And so I think one of my lastquestions for you, alia, is you
know you're the foundingchairperson of the K11
International Council and amember of the Tate Modern
Advisory Council and so manymore.
So I just want to know how isit that you kind of balance if
(33:33):
there is such a thing as abalance, you know kind of the
regional representation, becauseyou are such a incredibly
powerful like regional figure inthe art world now as well as
being such an international artfigure at Art Basel etc.
Is there a balance, or do youkind of now do people understand
that you are one of those rareplayers in the industry that can
(33:57):
traverse both?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
worlds.
I believe I am everythingeverywhere all at once.
Um, I don't know if everyoneunderstands that and I think
actually there is a lot still ofmisperception.
It's like, no, but you're doingthis.
No, you can't put me in a likeyou know, trying to put me in a
box.
Um, I recently had a work callthat was very much that, and I
(34:20):
was like no, that's, it'simpossible.
Because you know I can wake upto a message from you know an
artist asking me for help for aproject in Portugal, and you
know, if I'm able to and ofcourse I'll always respond, and
if I'm able to, I will I canequally wake up to, you know,
multiple emails, like thismorning about like a K-11.
We're doing like a majorproject with Hanselwork Oberst
(34:41):
about gaming, and then I'mputting them in touch with a
woman I know in London whosehusband is in gaming.
And then, of course, all ofthis simultaneously right now,
because we're two weeks awayfrom the opening of the Islamic
Arts Biennale waking up to likedozens of messages and emails
from people planning their trip.
So, yeah, you know it'severything everywhere all at
(35:03):
once.
And yesterday I was on an AspenArt Museum call.
I've just recently been invitedto join their air circle, where
they're really trying to thinkof a moment of convening and
almost a summit, where artistsare really put at the forefront
and where Aspen's great historyas being an intellectual center
also includes artists.
(35:24):
And so you know that covers, Ithink, almost every geography
except for South America,because, equally, just now, as
I'm talking to you, I haveseveral emails from about 154 in
Marrakesh, the African Art Fair, where I'm a founding board
member and I'm going and I'mhosting the Tate and Guggenheim
(35:44):
there and we're doing anincredible series of activations
and artist studio visits and,of course, gallery visits, and
they are all super, superexcited to come and experience
African art.
Many of them, of course, knowand know the region, but
actually the kind of chiefcurator is coming from the
Guggenheim has never been toNorth Africa and so it's really
(36:07):
exciting for me to be able toreveal that to her.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, I think it's a.
You really are one of thoseindividuals that you know, if
you get the pleasure to meet orlisten to or read more about.
I think you have effectivelykind of broken that whole you
know barrier or mold or whateverit is that you need to have
that one title or you need to bethat one thing be put in a box,
(36:32):
and I think that is kind ofthat is the question of our
generation.
Really, it's something that wetalk about a lot on the podcast
is that you can be severalthings at once, and that's
that's exactly how it is thatyou, you know, grow and develop.
So my final question for you,alia, before our curation or are
curated by Alia at it is whatadvice do you have for someone
(36:54):
who wants to get into the artworld, not as an artist, not as
a gallerist, but perhaps as acurator or consultant?
What character traits do youfeel is what interests me the
most?
Someone needs to have to bepart of this industry.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
You need to engage, you need to be persistent and
you need to follow up and youneed to show up.
You know, I think one of thenumber one things I always say
is you need to show up, you needto go to openings, you need to
go to art fairs, you need to goto museums, you need to go to
meetings.
You to go to art fairs, youneed to go to museums, you need
to go to meetings.
You know, as I said, whenpeople ask me, you know, the
other night I went to an artiststudio.
(37:31):
He's a young libyan artist.
Um, we met because I'd somehowcome across his uh, his, he'd
done a show at a small non inSouth London and actually I had
sent sent someone to go see itbecause I wasn't here at the
time.
I ended up, I think, catchinglike the last day of it.
But I read the brochure and youknow, I just reached out and I
(37:53):
said, oh, I'm Libyan and youknow, congratulations on your
show.
And in the end, you know, Iinvited him to things and he
came and actually did my talkfor Nourjaouda and he came to
another talk I did at the ICAand he really impressed me with,
you know, just being super withit and being very engaging with
(38:13):
me and responding, and then wasvery persistent in inviting me
to his studio.
I mean sent me I can't tell youhow many emails I was traveling
and this and that and Icouldn't make the time.
It was an hour to get from myhouse to his studio.
Um, you know, and during areally busy time of year for me,
like kind of November, december, that's like a very difficult
thing to be able to include whenit's not along the route of
(38:36):
like I can't like add threethings within that, right, it's
like very isolated.
So I ended up going you, it'slike, you know, january.
(38:56):
I got back on Saturday from theholidays and I went to see him
on Monday and I was so happy Iwas there.
He was so impressive, soarticulate.
You know, it was so interestingalso to see the studio space.
It's called Set London.
It was like in an old mothercare.
They like kind of converted itinto artist studios and I was
like how did I ever doubt that Iwanted to come and do this?
So he, you know, kind offurther, and every time this
happens to me, by the way, often, and every time I, you know, I
(39:19):
kind of go and I'm like why didI not do this before?
So I'm, you know, very happyfor people to be persistent.
I am that same person, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes
it doesn't.
Sometimes it also doesn'treally culturally translate.
I think certain countries don'tappreciate that and they kind
of think if they're notresponding to you, it means they
(39:39):
don't want to talk to you.
But you know, how do you knowthat?
I would say go for it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I love that.
I think that's like the perfectadvice because, truly, I think
that is the key and okay, so mylast question for you is curated
by Alia, which is basically,what is your life curation?
Like sort of life hacks,routines, products, things that
you have in your life, that sortof elevate your life, that make
it a little better, that youwould share with our audience?
(40:09):
Just like a couple of thingsthat come to mind.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
It can be anything Korean skincare number one,
Definitely Yearly, if not twicea year, visit to Korea to see my
incredible friends there, who Ilove very much in Seoul and
going to this kind of spa placecalled Chaum that does the most
(40:32):
incredible face massagetreatment.
The whole thing Wonderful.
Recommend it to everyone.
It's not invasive, it's justlike a kind of incredibly
elevated facial and then I'mvery good with my self-care and
I think you know as much aswe're talking right now about
art and, like you know, our lifecuration.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
My audience will write them down and actually go.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, you know, number one like I love my life,
I of of course have challenges.
I of course have, you know,down moments.
I am deeply grateful to mytherapist.
I'm deeply grateful to myfriends who, before I had a
therapist were my therapists and, you know, to my mom, who is
and always will be my also extratherapist and cheerleader and
(41:20):
biggest critic, and all of ityou know I love very much.
But I think you know you alwaysneed a person, right?
That's the number one thing.
You need a person in your lifewho is that person, or several
people.
And then I see great arts, whichyou know is now proven more and
more and more that arts andbeing surrounded by the arts and
seeing art is great for mentalhealth.
(41:42):
Actually, jameel has a JameelArt and Health Lab.
They're trying to define thatmore, improve that more, so that
people and societies acceptthat and give funding to art
spaces so that people have thatoutlet.
I believe that deeply.
I think you know, in some of mymost you know, kind of down and
(42:04):
sad or depressing moments, youknow, being in a beautiful
museum or interacting with agreat artist or a great curator
or a great patron has been sucha way of making me feel better.
And then you know, to be moredefinitive, what those hacks are
.
Indeed, korean skincare, justenjoying those little things.
(42:29):
Like I said, my morning walksare very important to me.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Really a big part of my life and my mental health.
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