September 3, 2025 • 52 mins
What does it take to document a cultural renaissance? Rebecca Anne Proctor never planned to become a journalist, yet her natural curiosity and love for writing led her to the forefront of Middle Eastern art and cultural reporting during its most transformative period.
Growing up between America and Italy with an artist mother and writer father, Rebecca's global perspective was shaped early. After completing studies in art history and Middle Eastern Islamic studies, a weekend trip to Beirut sparked a love affair with the region that turned a planned two-year stay into a 17-year immersion. Her timing couldn't have been more fortuitous – arriving just as major museums were opening, Christie's was establishing its Dubai presence, and regional art publications were emerging.
From her first unpaid article for Business of Fashion to becoming Editor-in-Chief of Harper's Bazaar Art Arabia and Harper's Bazaar Interiors Arabia, Rebecca's journey reflects the region's own cultural evolution. She witnessed firsthand the establishment of the Mathaf Museum of Modern Arab Art, the reopening of cinemas in Saudi Arabia, and the dramatic shifts in how art and culture are supported across the Gulf.
The conversation takes a particularly fascinating turn when Rebecca discusses co-authoring "Art in Saudi Arabia: A New Creative Economy" – the first comprehensive book about contemporary Saudi art during the kingdom's social transformation. She reveals the delicate balance required to present Saudi artists on their own terms while addressing Western concerns about art-washing and freedom of expression. "I was feeling frustrated because I thought reviews weren't really giving Saudi artists and creatives a real chance to speak and be visible on their own terms," she explains.
Rebecca's career advice, born from her background as a trained ballerina, resonates beyond journalism: persist through challenges, maintain self-care practices, and remain open to unexpected opportunities. Now dividing her time between Rome and Dubai, her story exemplifies how building bridges between cultures can create something truly extraordinary. What cultural shifts are you witnessing that deserve deeper storytelling?
Follow @rebeccaanneproctor on Instagram for more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
action.
Welcome to the curation, a showfor the culturally curious.
This is your host, noor hasan.
Each week, I'll guide youthrough a curated edit of the
finest in art, fashion, design,culture, luxury, wellness, tech
and more.
This is your go-to space fordiscovering trailblazing ideas,
untold stories and meaningfulconversations with innovators
(00:30):
and creators who are shaping ourworld.
There's no gatekeeping here, sosit back, tune in and let's
discover only the best together.
In this episode, I had thepleasure of interviewing Rebecca
Ann Proctor.
Rebecca is a journalist, author, editor and art advisor.
(00:53):
She's also theex-editor-in-chief of Harper's
Bazaar Art Arabia and Harper'sBazaar Interiors Arabia.
She has contributed tomagazines across the region.
She has contributed tomagazines across the region such
as Arab News, canvas Magazine,artnet and many more.
Rebecca also co-authored Art inSaudi Arabia A New Creative
Economy with Dr Princess AliaEl-Sinousi.
(01:16):
We go through everything inthis episode, from the beginning
of her career to moving to theMiddle East, living between
Dubai and Rome, and so much more.
So I hope you enjoy and learnso much from Rebecca's
incredible career trajectory asI have.
Thank you.
Right now I am speaking toRebecca Ann Proctor and,
(01:47):
honestly, I don't think you needvery much of an introduction in
the region regarding you know,as a journalist and also as a
writer, but I definitely wantthe audience to get to know you
more during this podcast and Iknow that they're going to be
super excited for this episode.
So thank you so much, rebecca,for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thank you so much for having me, Noor.
I've really been lookingforward to this.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Amazing.
So I think we'll start at thebeginning, because I feel like
your career is one that is trulyso aspirational and a lot of
young individuals will want tolearn how it is that you got
started at the beginning.
So I would love to know whatled you to a career in
journalism to begin with.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thanks again for having me, noor.
I've been asked this questionbefore and I think it's always
interesting because I neverplanned to be a journalist.
I always loved writing since Iwas a kid, actually growing up.
I would always keep diaries andsummer, because my mother's an
artist, my father is a writer, aretired professor of Italian
(02:58):
literature, and so I just lovewriting about everything that I
saw and the people that I met,and I used to love going to the
airport.
Strangely enough, now Isometimes dread it.
(03:21):
But I loved going to the airportand seeing people from all over
the world.
I was just really curious.
I was fascinated by you knowwhat they were wearing, you know
how they were acting um thedifferent languages.
So I've always been just anextremely curious person and
I've always wanted to travel umand learn about new places and
people.
And so this career injournalism in some ways is just
(03:45):
something that, whether I foundit or it found me, it just kind
of organically happened becauseI am American.
I grew up in Connecticut but wemoved to Rome when I was in high
school and I ended up finishinghigh school and also university
in Rome and then I did amaster's in art history in
(04:06):
London, in modern contemporaryart history, and again, I loved
writing the papers on art.
I was always something that Iexcelled at was writing and
editing.
And then I ended up going toParis to do another master's.
I wasn't ready to work fulltime.
I had had my first gallery jobin.
I wasn't ready to work fulltime.
(04:27):
I had had between growing up inItaly, the Mediterranean,
(04:53):
traveling, and I just really wasdrawn to the Arab world, and so
it was there that I wasstudying Middle Eastern Islamic
studies, nothing art relatedwithin this regional focus, but
a lot about the history, theculture, the politics, the
economics.
And again, I loved writing mypapers.
A lot of students didn't really, it was sort of a big chore and
they're not easy to do, but Ijust loved doing the research
(05:14):
and the writing.
And so then I took my firsttrip to Beirut with friends one
weekend and I just really fellin love again with the Middle
East, and so that was more proofthat I should just try and live
in the region.
And that took me to the Gulfafter graduating and I thought I
would stay in the Gulf in AbuDhabi.
(05:36):
That was my first city.
I thought I would stay therefor maybe two or three years and
I ended up.
Obviously I'm still here 17.
I think it's around 17 yearslater, but I was writing on the
side.
So, between you know, it wasalso a really difficult time to
graduate from graduate schoolthen, because it was 2008.
(05:56):
I graduated from my secondmaster's in Paris.
You know, stock market crash,it was really difficult to find
work and I, you know, I waslooking for different
opportunities and obviously Ifound something in Abu Dhabi,
but I had started writing on theside.
So I actually had startedmaking a little money here and
there, just with articles.
(06:16):
My first article I everpublished was actually for free,
it was for Business of Fashion,and they had just started too,
imran, oh, wow, okay, theystarted this as a blog and I
wrote about the ethics of luxury, or a deeper luxury, about the
environment and luxury.
I was always interested inhumanitarian focus, or bettering
(06:40):
the planner, making change, butalso through avenues of beauty,
you know, or art or luxury, andso I wrote that piece for him.
And then he had another.
He was working on another sitecalled Luxury Society, so I
ended up writing for there too,but I had, you know, I had
barely any contacts at thatpoint or any experience, so I
(07:01):
was just sort of learning as Iwent along and I just thought,
well, this is great, I cancontinue writing and on the side
I'll make a little bit of moneyand I'll have a full-time job
in an art gallery or a museum orsomething else.
And then this just keptincreasing and I got more and
more commissions while I wasworking at this art gallery in
Abu Dhabi, and then I was led.
(07:24):
You know, I kind of was hopingthat I would get a magazine job,
because I loved magazines andthis was kind of before you know
really the whole digital spherethat we're working in now, and
so, yeah, my first editorial jobwas with Canvas Magazine.
So I had worked, you know, I'ddone done writing for a variety
(07:46):
of different international andand regional sites, mostly out
of you know, the us new york, uh, london and then canvas took me
on and and that was where Ilearned really about how it was
to put together a magazine youknow from.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I mean, I think I just want to say that this was
kind of like at the beginning ofkind of this whole wave of
magazines in the region.
I feel like you really saw amoment where a lot was shifting
regarding the information thatwas out there, the type of
stories that came out, and Ithink you really were such a
(08:20):
pioneer in the beginning of thatsort of whole movement.
And we'll get into what cameafter.
But how was it at the beginningof that sort of whole movement
and we'll get into what cameafter?
But how was it at the time?
Like so was canvas still kindof new and upcoming and how did
it feel to kind of be likeshaping that dialogue, that
discourse in a way?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
well, I learned a lot from canvas because I came, I
had come, you know, post-war andcontemporary modern art
background with my BA inRenaissance and and an ancient
Roman and Greek arts, so thiswas totally new for me.
I didn't know much about theart in the Middle East, the art
in the Arab world and thisregion, and so it was canvas was
(09:02):
like at the time.
It was really, I mean, and itstill is, a leading, you know,
publication for art and culturein the region, but it was really
the golden age, I'd say, of themagazine.
I mean, we there was all sortsof collaborations with.
We did this book with Bulgari,which was really incredible,
pairing jewelry, high jewelry,with artworks and then text.
(09:22):
So I it was extremelyinnovative and you know I was
able to learn about artists fromLebanon, from Syria, egypt,
saudi Arabia, you know it was.
So I it was, it was reallyquite for me, it was extremely
educational and at the same time, of course, it was a very
fast-paced environment becauseyou're learning how to deliver
(09:44):
articles on artists, on majortopics and new museums.
You know, very quickly I can, Ican also mention like, during
this time, you know I was, youknow I was here, so I was able
to attend the opening of theMataf Museum of Modern Arab Art
in Doha.
That was the first really majormuseum for modern contemporary
(10:04):
art from the Arab world.
So that was 2010 that opened,and two years before, the Pei
Museum of Islamic art, alsoopened in Doha.
So this was a time, yeah, thateverything was kind of really
taking off in the region.
At the same time, it also wasthe period of the Arab Spring,
(10:38):
so 2011,.
There was just, you know, a lothappening politically in the
region too, and that obviouslyaffected the region and it was.
There was a lot of focus on itand it was it was growing.
It was Christie's had opened inDubai.
There was big auctions takingplace for the first time.
So this was really like, likeyou said, it was the beginning.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Right, exactly and like.
This is exactly why I wanted tospeak to you, because I think
that you have such a uniqueperspective on how that timeline
went.
And then we all remember.
So Christie's opened, followedby Vogue Arabia, as well had
opened I think they startedaround 2015, 16, something like
that and, of course, harper'sBazaar, et cetera, et cetera.
(11:18):
There was never like the Arabiatitles of magazines.
So, even as young journalists,even if you did want to write
for whatever it was publication,you didn't have much to aspire
to.
You didn't have much to lookfor in the region.
To be perfectly honest, thereweren't many options.
Eventually, you did it.
(11:39):
You did actually become theeditor in chief of Harper's
Bazaar Arabia, right, yeah, Ihad another job.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I had two other editor jobs before then that
were sort of I kind of crashedcourse in learning how to edit a
magazine.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I edited so.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Canvas.
Obviously I love Canvas, yeah,which was I learned a lot there.
But I was always interested infashion and luxury as well.
I, you know, I love beautifulthings and so I kind of wanted
to combine, or find a way tocombine my love for art modern,
contemporary art but alsohistory, luxury, fashion,
(12:15):
lifestyle, all that stuff andall of that, and I was doing a
little bit of reporting on theside on those topics while I,
while I was in canvas, they werereally kind to let me do that,
um.
And then I just to mention Ithink an important magazine to
add is there.
When you're mentioning thatthere wasn't a lot um of
publications then for people towrite for, it's true, there was
(12:37):
a really cool publication calledunfair that was published for a
few years that was had amazingdesign.
It was was edited by SophiaGalati, who um of course yeah.
Yeah, mill worlds, I'm surepeople will know.
Yes, but that was something Ilooked up to because it was just
edgy and cool and different andtalking about Arab identity and
culture.
But during a time of change andand opening Um so then I I was
(13:02):
led to edit a magazine thatdoesn't exist anymore called
Masquerade, that some peoplefrom Unfair also edited.
That magazine briefly.
And that was yeah, that was sortof how I was able to learn how
to put a magazine together.
I mean, there's no, you know,no one ever really taught me how
to do it, so I just learnedthat way and I was able to kind
(13:26):
of, you know, put all thecontent together and do these
amazing shoots.
We did shoots in Morocco andCordoba, venice.
Even so, it was a real kind ofdespite how chaotic, you know,
running a magazine is.
I learned a lot from thatexperience.
Running a magazine is I learneda lot from that experience.
And then I I briefly edited forfor a year New York Times Style
(13:47):
Magazine had the T Emiratesedition, which was a great,
which was a great fit, and Iedited that.
And Bloomberg Businessweek hadthis another supplement,
executive.
Was it executive style?
So, yeah, those were yeah, sothat was.
Those were cool experiences too.
And unfortunately the T TEmirates edition didn't continue
(14:08):
.
They also had a T Qatar for awhile.
And then someone approached mefrom ITP for Harper's Bazaar and
I I obviously was was reallykeen to do it because it's an
international title and Well,because every girl's dream job.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Do you know what I mean?
Like, this is kind of like whenyou think of when, at when
anyone?
Um, you know, I don't know, Ithink I don't know if this is
the because of the movies orwhatever it is, but an
editor-in-chief of a magazinelike Harper's Bazaar, I think,
in a career is kind of such aninteresting thing to take on,
specifically since it was Arabia.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, no, it, it, it definitely was.
And I I remember, you know itcame, I just sort of this
someone popped up in my inbox mypublisher at the time it
doesn't even work there anymoreand she said I'd love to meet
you and I thought, great, and Iwas looking for something that
would be.
You know, I think, moreobviously, magazine publishing
(15:07):
can be a bit more stable, justmagazine publishing particularly
.
I think, even more so now.
But it's just, with all thechanges in the digital landscape
and AI, it's just it's kind ofgone through a crisis and I
wanted to be in a place where Icould grow and have a you know a
title that was that I couldwork on continuously for a few
(15:29):
years at least.
And, you know, even while allof this, this change was
happening.
And so, yes, it worked out.
I first joined Harper's BazaarArt as a contributing editor and
I did some work on Harper'sBazaar Interiors and Harper's
Bazaar Arabia, and then I wasmade the editor-in-chief of
Harper's Bazaar Art, harper'sBazaar Interiors, and I also
edited another magazine.
(15:50):
Of course, that gave me quite afew to do Villa 88, which I
don't know if a lot of peopleknow this, but yeah, it's a
magazine yes, yeah, but yeah,mostly for Emirati woman, a very
bespoke magazine, um, so it wasan incredible experience.
So I, I edited Harper's Bazaarart, these magazines for
(16:11):
Harper's art for a total ofaround six years and, yeah, it
was, it was.
It was a dream job in many waysbecause I was able to travel
the world, travel the region,create a magazine on my, on my,
my own, every it was bi-monthlyand then turned quarterly and
really get to know the peopleand the places and the history
(16:32):
and the culture and, yeah, thatmake up this region.
So it was, it was truly, youknow, a wonderful opportunity.
And harper's bazaar interiorstoo, which came after I was
given, was another opportunity,because I originally was
hesitant because I, you know,I'm so focused on art and
culture and I was I didn't knowhow interiors would be, but then
I got really interested in andI met a lot of designers that
(16:56):
are very much like artists andare creating these really cool
furniture pieces and I was ableto kind of mix, you know,
furniture interiors with artdesign and obviously inject a
bit of fashion as well.
So it was, it was.
They were dream jobs, but verychallenging, a lot of work.
That's what people don'trealize.
It looks very, you know, jetsetting and wonderful and
(17:18):
glamorous, but it's a hugeamount of work and
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
And I think so this kind of laid the groundwork.
I suppose you now, with justthe educational background,
having edited Harper's BazaarArabia in the realm of art and
as well as interiors, it kind ofmakes perfect sense for you to
move into kind of writing on allof these topics at such an
(17:46):
expansive and in-depth level.
So you left Harper's BazaarArabia and went on to sort of to
build this incredible careerthat ended up being.
Kind of you ended up writingabout the arts, not only in
Saudi Arabia, about the arts notonly in Saudi Arabia, not only
(18:09):
writing a book but contributingto magazines like Artnet and the
like.
So how did you kind of adaptyour storytelling style to
different types of publications?
Or is there always like aRebecca style that people really
want and go for, like a youperspective?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
That's a great question, noor, because the
challenges of being, I'd say,freelance I prefer the word
independent because I think yes,I don't think freelance either.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I feel like it doesn't do it justice.
It is independent journalism.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, is that you, especially in today, and I, I
and I now write.
You know, since I left at theend of 2019, right before COVID,
I've written I mean not just onart and culture and luxury and
lifestyle and design andarchitecture, but I, you know,
I've I've covered, like theBeirut explosion and COVID, I
had to do a lot of newsreporting, reporting so, and I
(19:03):
actually wanted that, maybethat's I wanted to kind of have
that experience of writing a bitmore, capturing more of the
human voice in crisis situationsor challenges, which I get in
art reporting as well, because Ithink artists very much take
the pulse of what's happeningaround them.
They're very much affected bythe politics and the society of
(19:25):
the reality that they're livingand the context that they're
living.
But I did, I did learn, and Istill it's something that I
still have to do I did learnthat I have to adapt my voice
and style of writing andreporting to the publication
that I'm writing on.
You know, I, I have.
I had been doing a huge amountof work in Saudi Arabia and I
(19:46):
suddenly, luckily, when I leftHarper's and right before COVID
too, I came on board to ArabNews for regular work.
It was really great that thatcame when it did, because I
learned a huge amount about, youknow, quick, fast reporting,
(20:08):
you know more newsy style, butalso, yeah, adapting to sort of
more geopolitical analysis, andthat was something that really
interested me and also focusedand it also focused a lot on
Saudi Arabia, which at the timewas going through, and it's
still going through, a hugeamount of change.
So I was able to really get apulse on the country during this
(20:29):
moment, which, as you know, ledto the book that I wrote with
Ali El-Sinoussi, but thatrequired a whole, a way of you
know reportage that I was using,I think, with Harper's Bazaar
art, because I generally I'vealways used a more journalistic
style when I've been art inadvance.
But when you're writing on,however, when you're writing on
(20:51):
an art exhibition or artist, Imean it's definitely much more
descriptive, I'd say, and youknow you're really delving into
an artwork, looking at thebrushstrokes, sometimes even
speculating.
Delving into an artwork, lookingat the brushstrokes, sometimes
even speculating about what theartwork means to you and that's
not necessarily to you or to theaudience and then placing that
(21:12):
within a larger context of howthe artist or the curator sees
the show or what they wanted toaccomplish.
So it's a very different formof, I think, analysis and
approach than to quick, fastreportage.
So when COVID was sort offinishing and I could actually
go out and see art exhibitionsagain and write on them, I found
(21:32):
myself a little rusty and alittle flustered because I had
gotten so used to going fast,fast, fast.
Like you know, you're coveringthe Bayreuth explosion I wrote
about, not I mean for ArtNetnet,for the art newspaper, but also
I remember, I remember this,yeah, it was, yes, yeah, local
newspapers and I got very, um, Iwas very affected by it myself
(21:52):
personally, because I'm veryattached to Lebanon.
Yes, but that was all fast, youknow, very reporting style,
style of journalism.
I wouldn't say it's exhibitionreview, obviously.
So when I actually in 2000, Ithink it was what summer of 2021
or 22.
And I was able to go out andsee exhibitions that were being
(22:13):
held, I found myself in thebeginning kind of struggling,
just getting struggling to getthe words and the format right
again.
And now just getting strugglingto to get the words and the
format right again.
And now, now, now I have it,but you kind of have to shift
back and forth, um, that'sreally interesting, like I mean,
I think that I haven't heardsomeone articulate it like that
before.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So, honestly, like truly, it isn't all like you are
a journalist, but it's not allthe same type of reporting or
pace or kind of like techniquethat is required and not
everyone, I believe, can do both.
I think it's really difficult.
I think for many it's kind oflike you have a style, that's my
(22:53):
style.
I'm in that sort of box and Ican't really, you know, kind of
get out of it.
But you've managed to reallytraverse like the liminal lines
between all of many differenttypes of styles of journalism.
And then I want to circle back,since you mentioned it, and
kind of touch on the book thatyou wrote with, obviously, alia
(23:16):
Al-Sinousi, who we've had on thepodcast recently, which is why
I think it's an incredible thingthat we're having you on now
too.
Arts in Saudi Arabia.
There has not been a book ofthis kind, I believe, before.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
So I think this was kind of avery interesting and pioneering
(23:36):
book.
Can you tell me a little bitabout how it came about and the
process of writing it?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
bit about how it came about in the process of writing
it.
Uh, yes, yes, um, and just tojust to confirm no, there there
has never been a book published.
The focus is so closely oncontemporary art during this
time of change in in saudiarabia.
I mean, canvas has publishedbooks on art in the kingdom, but
that's something that lookswithin a contextual, more
analytical framework.
This is of its kind.
There was another book calledChanging Saudi Arabia.
(24:08):
It's actually in front of me,right here on my still the stack
of books that I use to researchthe book that I wrote by a
professor in the US His lastname is Folly that but looked
within, looked, looked, analyzedthe creative scene, but more
looking at, I think, youtubeskits and kind of film and
(24:31):
cinema.
And he did touch on thecreative scene, but this Ali and
I really focused oncontemporary art, since that's
the field that we both havewe're very much in and and so,
yes, it is the first of its kindand I think that's why, when
Ali approached me about workingcountry that's going through,
I'd say, you know, bombasticchanges from how it was just 10
(25:07):
years ago to how it is today.
It can be overwhelming.
But Ali reached out.
She'd seen that I'd beencovering the kingdom, you know,
for years and obviously doing alot with Arab news and other
publications focused on Saudi,and she thought I'd be the you
know, I guess, the right fit tocollaborate with someone who
(25:28):
could collaborate on the book,and I had been reporting on
various different exhibitions,like Desert X and other shows
that were happening during thisthat were taking place in 2019,
2020, you know, during a timewhere it was, people were very
hesitant to cover Saudi and Iluckily had some editors.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
That that's interesting because Alia did say
the same thing.
I mean, there was a hesitationand so you got you both of you
taking on this book, was it wasa real statement and and, given
the reception and how incrediblysuccessful it's been, I think
that it says a lot about theappetite, like I mean, obviously
people want to read more andlearn more and and, but.
(26:10):
But I mean, continue, tell memore about how, how the process
was and how the reception was.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
most importantly, yeah, um, I, I luckily had some
editors uh, at ArtNet at thetime and who you know were able
to run, or they agreed to run,some of the pieces that I
suggested and pitched, because alot of other publications and I
am a lot of other publicationswere very hesitant, were very
(26:44):
hesitant, and they, you know Iwas able to do, to do stories
that kind of tried to put incontext what was happening but
didn't, you know, shy away fromsome of the more challenging
historical, geopolitical contextthat obviously has shaped the
image of the country which is atthe time.
There was a lot of organizationseven boycotting a saudi art
organizations, among otherorganizations.
Yeah, um, so, but I was, whenalia, when alia asked approached
(27:09):
me about the book, I wasalready feeling very frustrated
because I had been doing a lotof reporting there.
Uh, I went to the first red seainternational film festival, I
mean a lot of the first events,and I was impressed.
Yes, there were things that youknow didn't go well, I mean the
you know things that could havebeen improved, but it was the
first time and it was the firsttime that a country that had
(27:31):
been more or less closed for 40years was doing this, and I
remember someone at the filmfestival, a Saudi woman told me
she was looking at a review thathad come out in an
international publication thatwas criticizing Saudi for
holding a film festival becauseof a human rights track record.
It's a human rights record,according to the international
(27:52):
community, saying, you know,we're damned if we hold a film
festival, but we're damned if wedon't, because we've been
criticized for not havingcinemas open for so many years.
And obviously the first cinema,the cinemas have opened in
saudi for the last few years andthey had been closed for
decades, even though they shouldknow that there has been a
saudi film festival that wascourageously held for I don't
(28:15):
know the amount of years, but indahran, in the eastern province
, for a long time, even beforecinemas reopened.
So I was feeling that some ofthe criticism.
Well, there are some majorchallenges.
For sure, there's challengesaround the world and there's
definitely extremely you know,there's been extremely
(28:37):
tumultuous events that havehappened over the last decade in
Saudi, as there have been inother parts of the world too.
But there's been things thathave happened over the last
decade in Saudi, as there havebeen in other parts of the world
too, but there's been thingsthat have really questioned what
it means to be what, what ourfreedom of expression means
today in the world, andobviously now we're dealing with
it almost on a daily basis,also in my own country, in
America, and in a different, ina different way.
(28:58):
Obviously without getting intothe nitty gritty, but I was
feeling frustrated because Ithought that perhaps some of the
reviews that were being writtenon and just sort of bashing
what was happening wasn't reallygiving the Saudis and some of
the artists and the creatives areal chance to speak and be
visible on their own terms.
(29:19):
Because what a government, whattakes place, um, politically in
a country is not always you knowwhat the people want or what
the people have, you know, donethemselves, and I think it's, I
think it was important to, tohave the saudi artists and
creatives you know also, uh,explain how it's been to create
over the last few decades, or oreven during this moment of
(29:40):
change.
So when aliaia asked me to dothe book, I said yes.
I knew it was going to be verychallenging, not just to put the
book together, becauseobviously there's still maybe
less so now, but there was alsofear for a while in Saudi about
international press andinterviews, because sometimes
(30:03):
they feel that they have beenmisrepresented and sort of
pigeonholed into, you know, adialogue that maybe wasn't
necessarily theirs yes yes, so I, you know, and obviously you
know they'd known me.
A lot of the artists have knownme before, you know they've.
So they trusted, know, trustedme and were able to continue
(30:24):
with the interviews.
But I also knew it was going tobe challenging for me
psychologically and it wasbecause I'm I've never had a
situation where I have to writea book appealing, trying to
cater to a Saudi audience,something that would be
acceptable and comfortable for aSaudi audience going through
change and at the same time, youknow something that would suit
(30:49):
not necessarily suit but answerinternational community or the
West, so to say, concerns aboutthe country.
And how do you bring those twohalves together?
It's almost impossible andthere are things that were, yeah
, that were very struggling forme, a huge struggle for me to
put into words, even because ofmy own upbringing.
(31:11):
I have been brought up with, youknow, an American education
that sees the world and seeslife, and I say life, society
and in certain, in certain ways,but I've also been living in in
the middle east and in thisregion and I understand other
ways of being and other ways oflooking at governments and
(31:31):
structures.
So, and also free speech, youknow how.
How does art relate to freedomof expression?
Can?
The biggest question I think inthe book is can you have, can
you have, an art scene in a, ina society that's not technically
, you know, completely free andopen by, I guess, at the time,
western standards we're seeingInteresting yeah, yeah, at the
(31:53):
time I mean right now, obviouslywe're I don't know what place
is free and completely free andopen.
I think that that needs to be.
That could be another podcastor a very challenging one.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Exactly, it's such an interesting question and I
think I think it actually iskind of perfect the dynamic of
you as well as Alia writing thisbook, because I don't think it
would have worked otherwise hadit been just the perspective of
someone who perhaps is MiddleEastern or perhaps Western or
either, or I think it is adialogue that requires a back
(32:27):
and forth and kind of like aperspective that is another.
And how did you feel thereception was?
I mean, I saw that I went toone talk for the book at Art
Week back at Al-Sirqal Avenue inNovember last year and I mean
it was like a full house.
There was like no space to sit.
(32:48):
People obviously have beeninterested.
How has the feedback been?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Well, it's been very good.
After I finished it I think Iwanted to run into the ocean or
the sea and just like forget thewhole thing.
It was a lot to put to it.
Just writing a book in generalis hard, it's just very hard.
I think, no matter what genreof book you're writing, this one
I had to, you know, beconcerned Not just because of
(33:16):
the sort of cultural, social andcultural innuendos between you
know, the region and theinternational community, but
also just because there'sosbetween you know, the region and
the international community,but also just because there's
not, there's very, there's verylittle documentation on the
Saudi art scene and Saudi arthistory in Saudi.
So we're also concerned withyou know, if there's mistakes or
inaccuracies.
So it was just, it waschallenging, but I've been
(33:41):
really happy that we've peoplehave been so interested in the
book and it seems to have soldreally well.
I mean, people keep, when itcame out, people kept telling me
they're buying copies.
I've we've been asked to speakmany times in London at various
different venues and conferences.
Presented the book in Paris.
Conferences presented the bookin Paris, new York, dubai,
(34:12):
riyadh.
It's been presented andreceived quite well.
I mean, obviously there has beenone or two voices from abroad,
who've from abroad, who've maybecriticized it slightly for not
going more heavily into acritical tone of different
practices and the state ofaffairs perhaps in the country
(34:33):
or the Gulf, but I was expectingthat.
I think it's the geopoliticallens in which people view art
and culture in the region.
That comes from abroad is goingto always be challenging
because things are being done ina different way, it's a
different time for the region,and so I expected that, I tried
(34:56):
to, we tried to answer to, wetried to sort of foresee the
criticism and and we answered tothat and and obviously people
are going to have differentviewpoints, but overall I got,
you know, we've received goodfeedback and I think it's
answered questions.
And the major question whichthe publisher presented to is,
(35:19):
you know, is Saudi Arabia?
Is this art washing?
And I don't.
I don't believe that what theGulf countries are doing with
art and culture is is completelyart washing, um, and I think
you have to be really carefulwith that term.
And so we were.
We used this opportunity to totackle a real difficult question
by delving into the the historyof the culture, of the society
(35:42):
of a country that has been verymisunderstood and that had most
people do not.
Most people had no historicaland cultural context, um of so I
think there's a lot of positive, um, yeah, a lot of positive
things have come from it.
I mean, obviously there's stilla lot of misunderstanding, um,
especially as all eyes right noware on the gulf, um, you know,
(36:03):
not just in our culture, but forbusiness.
I mean, you've just had theannouncement of our Basel Qatar
taking place in Doha.
Yes, there are challenges here,there's challenges elsewhere,
but ultimately, what I alsotried to show in the book and
you know, the term art washingobviously is challenging,
problematic, I don't even likesaying it and the term art
(36:39):
washing obviously is challenging, problematic, I don't even like
saying it but to counteract gas, because they're very aware of
the need to diversify theireconomies and that in itself, to
explain that and delve deepinto it, which I don't think a
lot of art journals have done,and I can understand why,
because this is very much, thisis very much a business idea, a
(37:02):
business but also a culturalidea was important in the book.
And to give a history of also,what does a creative economy
mean and why is?
The ultimate question is why isSaudi investing so much money
in art.
You could ask the same questionwhy is Qatar investing so much
money in art?
Why has the UAE done it?
Why is this important for thesecountries?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And we tried to in a very short amount of pages,
answer these huge questions, andfor me I think it's really
interesting.
I mean, obviously you touchedon pretty much all of the topics
, I believe, that were top ofmind in that book and the idea
of a creative economy isessentially it's what we're
going through.
I mean, everyone keeps sayingit's a cultural renaissance and
that's exactly kind of what itis.
(37:51):
But building the creativeeconomy from scratch, kind of
reshaping it, what's going on?
All of these questions wouldnot have been answered in a
short form article or, like youknow, even a podcast or et
cetera.
It needed sort of like a longform book that you would be able
to read and perhaps understandmore.
So I just completelycongratulate you on taking on
(38:14):
this project, because I think itwas a big risk, but I think it
definitely kind of completelytook you as a journalist in your
career and as a writer into atotally new realm.
I think my next question for youis obviously we've spoken about
so many roles that you've takenin the world of journalism as
(38:36):
an editor, as a writer, as anindependent journalism.
So, journalist, I just want toknow what career advice would
you give to kind of someone whois looking to become, I want to
say a journalist, but I mean,we're in the digital age, so
obviously you can be ajournalist in many different
(38:56):
ways.
Now Do you have any greatcareer advice that you've kind
of used over the years?
And also, how is it that youkind of continue to pick up
projects that are interestingfor you?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
because now I know that you're in a place where you
kind of have a lot of choice,which is amazing yeah, um, I
think my advice would probablybe more character building,
because I something that Ialways hear in my head,
especially during reallydifficult moments, because I've
had, you know, I've done,obviously, I've taken on some
(39:30):
very interesting projects, butthere's been moments where I've
wanted to quit and I haven'twanted to.
I haven't wanted to finish aproject or I haven't wanted to
finish an article, or I askedmyself why have I done this?
Or I haven't wanted to finishan article, or I ask myself why
have I done this?
I just hear a voice that saysyou know, keep going, you know,
just show up.
And I'm also a former ballerina.
I trained very seriously inuniversity and I think that
(39:58):
discipline of always getting upand always going on it's given
me a stamina and a grit that Ithink has helped me a lot in
this industry, which is verychallenging.
I think it's particularlychallenging at the moment
because no one knows what totrust, what to read.
People aren't reading as much.
I have editors that tell me youknow, write 300, 500 words, not
800 or a thousand, which isunderstandable because people
(40:19):
scroll these days they're muchmore social media reading
attacks.
So I have moments where, youknow, I ask you know why am I
doing this?
And it's hard, and you alsodeal with a lot of difficult
personalities, because deadlinesare such a bane of our
existence as writers or editorsor authors, or editors or
(40:40):
authors.
But the thing that's alwayscarried me forward is to, even
if I'm feeling really, reallydown and having one of the worst
days, is to get up and just trymy best and go forward.
It's been hard for me sometimesto give boundaries and limits.
(41:01):
I think and maybe that alsocomes from dance, because we
were trained to always kind ofget up and be resilient and keep
moving.
I think it's really important.
I will emphasize and I knowyou're also a Pilates teacher,
noor yes, I'm a Pilates teacher.
I am a big believer in self-care.
I often give myself moreself-care and more balance, and
I think that if, whateverindustry you're going into today
(41:24):
, I think we're all faced with alot of challenges, because our
entire environment is changingin good ways but also, I think,
in negative ways.
You know there's the rise of AIand tech is.
They're very exciting andpositive tools, but we still
don't quite know yet how to usethem.
And so I think that you know,and I think we're in a moment of
(41:49):
a lot of uncertainty.
You could argue that anytime inhistory there's been a lot of
uncertainty, but there's a lotof changes in the way we deal
with our daily life andexistence and travels and
whatnot.
So I, yeah, my biggest advice isis to have faith and to believe
in yourself and to go on evenwhen it's really hard.
And I now, you know, I've beenon my own more or less running
(42:10):
my own business since I leftHarper's and that's also been
hard, because sometimes you knowyou deal with a variety of
different clients and cash flowand and and that that presents
its own challenges.
So I just, I constantly tellmyself you know, just keep going
.
And if you can keep going, ifyou can keep moving it's like if
you're, if you're a runner, ifyou're a dancer, if you can keep
(42:32):
moving, you know you're goingto get to your destination.
Something will happen.
You're putting energy out thereand so it will come back.
But at the same time, be bekind to yourself.
I haven't always been as kindas I should be to myself, so
that's my advice In terms of howI keep finding interesting
projects.
I think you know, after acertain point in one's career,
(42:57):
first you're chasing things,first you're pitching.
You know you're putting a lotout there, a lot of energy, yeah
, then it comes.
I still pitch.
I still have to, you know, getout there and give an idea and
maybe someone likes it.
Maybe they don't like it, maybethey don't even respond, but
you get to a point where thingsyou know things do come to you,
they present themselves to youas opportunities and I think
(43:19):
that's that's been nice over thelast few years.
Things have come to me.
The Saudi book was somethingthat came to me.
I didn't pitch that idea, I wasfeeling I mean it was almost
like I manifested it because Iwas feeling so frustrated that
things that the changes in Saudisort of the art scene and
society, I didn't feel that itwas being presented in a
(43:39):
balanced way internationally.
And then suddenly Ali presentedthis book to me and other
things that I, other clients andopportunities have also come up
.
I've done a lot with Africa.
We didn't talk about that, butit's been, you know, a big part
of also my love and interestsand art and African society.
(44:00):
And so like I'm supporting, I'dlike to support a school of a
school in the Congo for girlscalled Malaika.
I now sponsor a child.
But I was invited right when Ileft Harper's by Noella Kosadas,
who's just, who's moving toDubai, who's the founder, she's
Congolese Cypriot and she'smoving to Dubai in July.
(44:22):
But she invited me and rightwhen I was leaving the magazine
and I decided to accept and togo and from that I've learned a
lot about the Congolese artscene.
I've been able to learn aboutthe school and support when I
can.
So I think things, if you havean open mind and an open heart,
(44:43):
I think things come to you.
I mean other clients too, likeI'm doing a little bit of PR and
communications now for a fewdifferent entities in Dubai and
some other luxury brands, andthese have kind of come word of
mouth.
Keep open-minded about, aboutlife and about being creative
(45:07):
and being, you know, curious.
I think things reallyinteresting, things come.
I curated a show, my first evershow in Africa, at a gallery in
Lagos in November that was.
Yeah, that was cool.
It was a bit nerve wrackingbecause I've never done that in
Africa before, but that wasexperience to where I mean
they're mostly they're all young, young to mid-career artists.
So I definitely, you know, Ithink, seize the opportunity,
(45:33):
try not to doubt yourself.
I definitely continue to doubtmyself in moments, but then I
just tell myself to go and showup and try my best and and
something, something good willcome, even if you know you, you
will make mistakes.
I've made many mistakes in mycareer and something good will
come, even if you know you willmake mistakes.
I've made many mistakes in mycareer and I'm sure I will
continue to make them, whetherit's a small typo or something
else.
But I think the important partis that you just you wake up the
(45:56):
next day, or even if it'sduring the day, and you just go
on again and you try and go onin a way that has a good
intention and I think goodthings will come.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I love that, I really do.
And I think it brings usperfectly to my final question,
which is, since the podcast iscalled the Curation, I would
love to know kind of what isyour curation, curated by
Rebecca, to know kind of what isyour curation, curated by
Rebecca, of things that are kindof like non-negotiables in your
(46:29):
life, that are, you know,pillars that keep you either
motivated, that you can't gowithout, that you'd love to
recommend to the audience, andit can be anything you know from
, like a drink or a sport orwhatever it is uh well, I loved,
I still love, to dance.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I'm um dance and do and do pilates.
I'm a very active person and Ifind myself, if I don't, if I
don't do this, if I don't workout or do something physical, I
mean almost on a daily basis I Iknow that sounds probably
extreme for some people, but Ithink it's because I trained so
much as a child and into myearly adult life that keeps me
(47:08):
sane, and if I don't, if I can'tdo it, I just find myself
getting a little bit moreagitated.
And so that's definitely anaspect of my life that I'm
trying to, no matter what, evenif I'm on holiday with friends
or if I'm on a work trip, if Ihave to go to the gym or do
something in my room, likethat's something that I need to
have in my life and I need to beeven more disciplined about
(47:29):
keeping it in my life.
Yeah, yeah, and I know, I knowyou have a similar passion, but
I do.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
I mean the first.
The thing that I love most isthat you know if you're here
like covering something soimportant as, for example, the
grand addiction museum, you'relike, but I need to go to
pilates class, I need to I mean,I don't know like how do you
find time to do that, rebecca?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
but but you do.
It probably seems ridiculous toa lot of people because the
most important you're, you know,the most important thing I'm
there to do is to cover gem inthe museum like I.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
I think my audience loves like little details like
that, because that's how youkeep yourself like functioning
at a high level.
No, like yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I think.
But I also realized, you know,there's a saying in Italian,
I'll say it in English that yousounds probably more more sexy
in Italian, more romantic, butyou learn something.
You learn different things andyou kind of put them aside and
then they come back and they allwork together.
Like I think, going to aPilates class with you, noor,
and Cairo, and training with you, like I'm also immersing myself
(48:33):
into, into the culture of Cairoand I'm meeting new people and
you never know, like I could askthose people what their
thoughts are on the GrandEgyptian Museum, or I could.
You know, this gives me, thisadds to my experience, and so
I'm not just there, I'm going ona reporting.
I mean, obviously it isimportant to go on to do the
work and to do what you're thereto do, but I really love
(48:55):
immersing myself in the cultures.
Of course that's a key thingfor me.
I don't like the idea ofparachute journalism.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I mean not to not to criticize other people's style,
but I really I like to go to aplace and build a relationship
and come back and you knowwhether it's successful in so
many, in so many ways, likeyou'll fully immerse, you'll go
out to dinner, you'll, you'llspeak to people and create kind
of like a community wherever yougo, and that way you have, like
you said, perspectives If youneed opinions, if you need more
perspective for your articles.
(49:30):
It's incredible, but so youmentioned dance and Pilates.
What else is a non-negotiablefor you?
Speaker 2 (49:36):
I mean I love, I love going, I love food, I love
eating well, so I love going outfor a really good meal and a
drink with friends or family.
That's key for me, in whatevercountry I'm in.
I really love having a goodmeal with people around me I
meanines, or just relishingcuisines that I love.
I mean, obviously I loveItalian food, but I also love
(50:07):
Asian.
I love Arab food, arabic food.
I love Persian food, so, yeah,eating well.
I love music.
I mean I listen to music likeall day long.
I sometimes take breaks whenI'm writing or doing work and
listen to music.
I have to dance around my house.
I know that seems probablycrazy, but like that's something
(50:29):
that I kind of is part of how Ioperate.
Um, and yeah, so I mean music.
I love electronic music, um,from classical electronic to,
you know, rap, r&b but, yeah,I've, I listened to a lot of
electronic recently.
Um, and reading a good book um,when I have a time when I have,
(50:50):
I always try and read as much asI can.
I'm probably not reading asmuch as I used to, just life is
so hectic these days, but Ialways like to have a good book,
um, with me and um, and, yeah,I also love when I'm in dubai
and well, also in rome.
I live between rome and dubainow I, I love water, I love
going to the beach or to thepool.
(51:12):
I, water is really importantfor me.
I think I am someone that is alittle bit, probably hyperactive
, and I I have a lot ofdifferent passions, a lot of
things I want to do, and justwater is something, you know,
it's an element that reallycalms me and I just I really
need to be in places that have abody of water nearby.
(51:32):
You know, in Italy, I lovegoing to the beach or being in
the sea on a boat.
In Dubai, the same thing.
I love going to the beach withfriends or just even on my own
sometimes.
So it's, yeah, this is kind ofwhat what comes to me.
I do do yoga, I try and alsomeditate, if I can.
I try and meditate every daysometimes it happens, sometimes
it doesn't but um that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Honestly, I feel like that is the most kind of
romanticized answer I've evergotten.
It's like and living betweenRome and Dubai forever.
I will be so jealous of this.
It's like the most beautifulbalance.
But thank you so much, Rebecca,for your time, for your
insights and your perspective.
I'm so happy that I finally gotyou on the podcast and I'm sure
(52:17):
this is going to be the firstof many episodes to come.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Oh, thank you for having me, Noor.
It's been a great pleasure,Thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Thank you for listening.
Make sure to follow at Rebeccaand Proctor on Instagram to keep
up and stay updated with all ofRebecca's newest ventures, and
at the Creation Podcast for ourupcoming episodes.
action.
Welcome to the curation, a showfor the culturally curious.
This is your host, noor hasan.
Each week, I'll guide youthrough a curated edit of the
finest in art, fashion, design,culture, luxury, wellness, tech
and more.
This is your go-to space fordiscovering trailblazing ideas,
untold stories and meaningfulconversations with innovators
(00:30):
and creators who are shaping ourworld.
There's no gatekeeping here, sosit back, tune in and let's
discover only the best together.
In this episode, I had thepleasure of interviewing Rebecca
Ann Proctor.
Rebecca is a journalist, author, editor and art advisor.
(00:53):
She's also theex-editor-in-chief of Harper's
Bazaar Art Arabia and Harper'sBazaar Interiors Arabia.
She has contributed tomagazines across the region.
She has contributed tomagazines across the region such
as Arab News, canvas Magazine,artnet and many more.
Rebecca also co-authored Art inSaudi Arabia A New Creative
Economy with Dr Princess AliaEl-Sinousi.
(01:16):
We go through everything inthis episode, from the beginning
of her career to moving to theMiddle East, living between
Dubai and Rome, and so much more.
So I hope you enjoy and learnso much from Rebecca's
incredible career trajectory asI have.
Thank you.
Right now I am speaking toRebecca Ann Proctor and,
(01:47):
honestly, I don't think you needvery much of an introduction in
the region regarding you know,as a journalist and also as a
writer, but I definitely wantthe audience to get to know you
more during this podcast and Iknow that they're going to be
super excited for this episode.
So thank you so much, rebecca,for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thank you so much for having me, Noor.
I've really been lookingforward to this.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Amazing.
So I think we'll start at thebeginning, because I feel like
your career is one that is trulyso aspirational and a lot of
young individuals will want tolearn how it is that you got
started at the beginning.
So I would love to know whatled you to a career in
journalism to begin with.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thanks again for having me, noor.
I've been asked this questionbefore and I think it's always
interesting because I neverplanned to be a journalist.
I always loved writing since Iwas a kid, actually growing up.
I would always keep diaries andsummer, because my mother's an
artist, my father is a writer, aretired professor of Italian
(02:58):
literature, and so I just lovewriting about everything that I
saw and the people that I met,and I used to love going to the
airport.
Strangely enough, now Isometimes dread it.
(03:21):
But I loved going to the airportand seeing people from all over
the world.
I was just really curious.
I was fascinated by you knowwhat they were wearing, you know
how they were acting um thedifferent languages.
So I've always been just anextremely curious person and
I've always wanted to travel umand learn about new places and
people.
And so this career injournalism in some ways is just
(03:45):
something that, whether I foundit or it found me, it just kind
of organically happened becauseI am American.
I grew up in Connecticut but wemoved to Rome when I was in high
school and I ended up finishinghigh school and also university
in Rome and then I did amaster's in art history in
(04:06):
London, in modern contemporaryart history, and again, I loved
writing the papers on art.
I was always something that Iexcelled at was writing and
editing.
And then I ended up going toParis to do another master's.
I wasn't ready to work fulltime.
I had had my first gallery jobin.
I wasn't ready to work fulltime.
(04:27):
I had had between growing up inItaly, the Mediterranean,
(04:53):
traveling, and I just really wasdrawn to the Arab world, and so
it was there that I wasstudying Middle Eastern Islamic
studies, nothing art relatedwithin this regional focus, but
a lot about the history, theculture, the politics, the
economics.
And again, I loved writing mypapers.
A lot of students didn't really, it was sort of a big chore and
they're not easy to do, but Ijust loved doing the research
(05:14):
and the writing.
And so then I took my firsttrip to Beirut with friends one
weekend and I just really fellin love again with the Middle
East, and so that was more proofthat I should just try and live
in the region.
And that took me to the Gulfafter graduating and I thought I
would stay in the Gulf in AbuDhabi.
(05:36):
That was my first city.
I thought I would stay therefor maybe two or three years and
I ended up.
Obviously I'm still here 17.
I think it's around 17 yearslater, but I was writing on the
side.
So, between you know, it wasalso a really difficult time to
graduate from graduate schoolthen, because it was 2008.
(05:56):
I graduated from my secondmaster's in Paris.
You know, stock market crash,it was really difficult to find
work and I, you know, I waslooking for different
opportunities and obviously Ifound something in Abu Dhabi,
but I had started writing on theside.
So I actually had startedmaking a little money here and
there, just with articles.
(06:16):
My first article I everpublished was actually for free,
it was for Business of Fashion,and they had just started too,
imran, oh, wow, okay, theystarted this as a blog and I
wrote about the ethics of luxury, or a deeper luxury, about the
environment and luxury.
I was always interested inhumanitarian focus, or bettering
(06:40):
the planner, making change, butalso through avenues of beauty,
you know, or art or luxury, andso I wrote that piece for him.
And then he had another.
He was working on another sitecalled Luxury Society, so I
ended up writing for there too,but I had, you know, I had
barely any contacts at thatpoint or any experience, so I
(07:01):
was just sort of learning as Iwent along and I just thought,
well, this is great, I cancontinue writing and on the side
I'll make a little bit of moneyand I'll have a full-time job
in an art gallery or a museum orsomething else.
And then this just keptincreasing and I got more and
more commissions while I wasworking at this art gallery in
Abu Dhabi, and then I was led.
(07:24):
You know, I kind of was hopingthat I would get a magazine job,
because I loved magazines andthis was kind of before you know
really the whole digital spherethat we're working in now, and
so, yeah, my first editorial jobwas with Canvas Magazine.
So I had worked, you know, I'ddone done writing for a variety
(07:46):
of different international andand regional sites, mostly out
of you know, the us new york, uh, london and then canvas took me
on and and that was where Ilearned really about how it was
to put together a magazine youknow from.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I mean, I think I just want to say that this was
kind of like at the beginning ofkind of this whole wave of
magazines in the region.
I feel like you really saw amoment where a lot was shifting
regarding the information thatwas out there, the type of
stories that came out, and Ithink you really were such a
(08:20):
pioneer in the beginning of thatsort of whole movement.
And we'll get into what cameafter.
But how was it at the beginningof that sort of whole movement
and we'll get into what cameafter?
But how was it at the time?
Like so was canvas still kindof new and upcoming and how did
it feel to kind of be likeshaping that dialogue, that
discourse in a way?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
well, I learned a lot from canvas because I came, I
had come, you know, post-war andcontemporary modern art
background with my BA inRenaissance and and an ancient
Roman and Greek arts, so thiswas totally new for me.
I didn't know much about theart in the Middle East, the art
in the Arab world and thisregion, and so it was canvas was
(09:02):
like at the time.
It was really, I mean, and itstill is, a leading, you know,
publication for art and culturein the region, but it was really
the golden age, I'd say, of themagazine.
I mean, we there was all sortsof collaborations with.
We did this book with Bulgari,which was really incredible,
pairing jewelry, high jewelry,with artworks and then text.
(09:22):
So I it was extremelyinnovative and you know I was
able to learn about artists fromLebanon, from Syria, egypt,
saudi Arabia, you know it was.
So I it was, it was reallyquite for me, it was extremely
educational and at the same time, of course, it was a very
fast-paced environment becauseyou're learning how to deliver
(09:44):
articles on artists, on majortopics and new museums.
You know, very quickly I can, Ican also mention like, during
this time, you know I was, youknow I was here, so I was able
to attend the opening of theMataf Museum of Modern Arab Art
in Doha.
That was the first really majormuseum for modern contemporary
(10:04):
art from the Arab world.
So that was 2010 that opened,and two years before, the Pei
Museum of Islamic art, alsoopened in Doha.
So this was a time, yeah, thateverything was kind of really
taking off in the region.
At the same time, it also wasthe period of the Arab Spring,
(10:38):
so 2011,.
There was just, you know, a lothappening politically in the
region too, and that obviouslyaffected the region and it was.
There was a lot of focus on itand it was it was growing.
It was Christie's had opened inDubai.
There was big auctions takingplace for the first time.
So this was really like, likeyou said, it was the beginning.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Right, exactly and like.
This is exactly why I wanted tospeak to you, because I think
that you have such a uniqueperspective on how that timeline
went.
And then we all remember.
So Christie's opened, followedby Vogue Arabia, as well had
opened I think they startedaround 2015, 16, something like
that and, of course, harper'sBazaar, et cetera, et cetera.
(11:18):
There was never like the Arabiatitles of magazines.
So, even as young journalists,even if you did want to write
for whatever it was publication,you didn't have much to aspire
to.
You didn't have much to lookfor in the region.
To be perfectly honest, thereweren't many options.
Eventually, you did it.
(11:39):
You did actually become theeditor in chief of Harper's
Bazaar Arabia, right, yeah, Ihad another job.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I had two other editor jobs before then that
were sort of I kind of crashedcourse in learning how to edit a
magazine.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I edited so.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Canvas.
Obviously I love Canvas, yeah,which was I learned a lot there.
But I was always interested infashion and luxury as well.
I, you know, I love beautifulthings and so I kind of wanted
to combine, or find a way tocombine my love for art modern,
contemporary art but alsohistory, luxury, fashion,
(12:15):
lifestyle, all that stuff andall of that, and I was doing a
little bit of reporting on theside on those topics while I,
while I was in canvas, they werereally kind to let me do that,
um.
And then I just to mention Ithink an important magazine to
add is there.
When you're mentioning thatthere wasn't a lot um of
publications then for people towrite for, it's true, there was
(12:37):
a really cool publication calledunfair that was published for a
few years that was had amazingdesign.
It was was edited by SophiaGalati, who um of course yeah.
Yeah, mill worlds, I'm surepeople will know.
Yes, but that was something Ilooked up to because it was just
edgy and cool and different andtalking about Arab identity and
culture.
But during a time of change andand opening Um so then I I was
(13:02):
led to edit a magazine thatdoesn't exist anymore called
Masquerade, that some peoplefrom Unfair also edited.
That magazine briefly.
And that was yeah, that was sortof how I was able to learn how
to put a magazine together.
I mean, there's no, you know,no one ever really taught me how
to do it, so I just learnedthat way and I was able to kind
(13:26):
of, you know, put all thecontent together and do these
amazing shoots.
We did shoots in Morocco andCordoba, venice.
Even so, it was a real kind ofdespite how chaotic, you know,
running a magazine is.
I learned a lot from thatexperience.
Running a magazine is I learneda lot from that experience.
And then I I briefly edited forfor a year New York Times Style
(13:47):
Magazine had the T Emiratesedition, which was a great,
which was a great fit, and Iedited that.
And Bloomberg Businessweek hadthis another supplement,
executive.
Was it executive style?
So, yeah, those were yeah, sothat was.
Those were cool experiences too.
And unfortunately the T TEmirates edition didn't continue
(14:08):
.
They also had a T Qatar for awhile.
And then someone approached mefrom ITP for Harper's Bazaar and
I I obviously was was reallykeen to do it because it's an
international title and Well,because every girl's dream job.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Do you know what I mean?
Like, this is kind of like whenyou think of when, at when
anyone?
Um, you know, I don't know, Ithink I don't know if this is
the because of the movies orwhatever it is, but an
editor-in-chief of a magazinelike Harper's Bazaar, I think,
in a career is kind of such aninteresting thing to take on,
specifically since it was Arabia.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, no, it, it, it definitely was.
And I I remember, you know itcame, I just sort of this
someone popped up in my inbox mypublisher at the time it
doesn't even work there anymoreand she said I'd love to meet
you and I thought, great, and Iwas looking for something that
would be.
You know, I think, moreobviously, magazine publishing
(15:07):
can be a bit more stable, justmagazine publishing particularly
.
I think, even more so now.
But it's just, with all thechanges in the digital landscape
and AI, it's just it's kind ofgone through a crisis and I
wanted to be in a place where Icould grow and have a you know a
title that was that I couldwork on continuously for a few
(15:29):
years at least.
And, you know, even while allof this, this change was
happening.
And so, yes, it worked out.
I first joined Harper's BazaarArt as a contributing editor and
I did some work on Harper'sBazaar Interiors and Harper's
Bazaar Arabia, and then I wasmade the editor-in-chief of
Harper's Bazaar Art, harper'sBazaar Interiors, and I also
edited another magazine.
(15:50):
Of course, that gave me quite afew to do Villa 88, which I
don't know if a lot of peopleknow this, but yeah, it's a
magazine yes, yeah, but yeah,mostly for Emirati woman, a very
bespoke magazine, um, so it wasan incredible experience.
So I, I edited Harper's Bazaarart, these magazines for
(16:11):
Harper's art for a total ofaround six years and, yeah, it
was, it was.
It was a dream job in many waysbecause I was able to travel
the world, travel the region,create a magazine on my, on my,
my own, every it was bi-monthlyand then turned quarterly and
really get to know the peopleand the places and the history
(16:32):
and the culture and, yeah, thatmake up this region.
So it was, it was truly, youknow, a wonderful opportunity.
And harper's bazaar interiorstoo, which came after I was
given, was another opportunity,because I originally was
hesitant because I, you know,I'm so focused on art and
culture and I was I didn't knowhow interiors would be, but then
I got really interested in andI met a lot of designers that
(16:56):
are very much like artists andare creating these really cool
furniture pieces and I was ableto kind of mix, you know,
furniture interiors with artdesign and obviously inject a
bit of fashion as well.
So it was, it was.
They were dream jobs, but verychallenging, a lot of work.
That's what people don'trealize.
It looks very, you know, jetsetting and wonderful and
(17:18):
glamorous, but it's a hugeamount of work and
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
And I think so this kind of laid the groundwork.
I suppose you now, with justthe educational background,
having edited Harper's BazaarArabia in the realm of art and
as well as interiors, it kind ofmakes perfect sense for you to
move into kind of writing on allof these topics at such an
(17:46):
expansive and in-depth level.
So you left Harper's BazaarArabia and went on to sort of to
build this incredible careerthat ended up being.
Kind of you ended up writingabout the arts, not only in
Saudi Arabia, about the arts notonly in Saudi Arabia, not only
(18:09):
writing a book but contributingto magazines like Artnet and the
like.
So how did you kind of adaptyour storytelling style to
different types of publications?
Or is there always like aRebecca style that people really
want and go for, like a youperspective?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
That's a great question, noor, because the
challenges of being, I'd say,freelance I prefer the word
independent because I think yes,I don't think freelance either.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I feel like it doesn't do it justice.
It is independent journalism.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, is that you, especially in today, and I, I
and I now write.
You know, since I left at theend of 2019, right before COVID,
I've written I mean not just onart and culture and luxury and
lifestyle and design andarchitecture, but I, you know,
I've I've covered, like theBeirut explosion and COVID, I
had to do a lot of newsreporting, reporting so, and I
(19:03):
actually wanted that, maybethat's I wanted to kind of have
that experience of writing a bitmore, capturing more of the
human voice in crisis situationsor challenges, which I get in
art reporting as well, because Ithink artists very much take
the pulse of what's happeningaround them.
They're very much affected bythe politics and the society of
(19:25):
the reality that they're livingand the context that they're
living.
But I did, I did learn, and Istill it's something that I
still have to do I did learnthat I have to adapt my voice
and style of writing andreporting to the publication
that I'm writing on.
You know, I, I have.
I had been doing a huge amountof work in Saudi Arabia and I
(19:46):
suddenly, luckily, when I leftHarper's and right before COVID
too, I came on board to ArabNews for regular work.
It was really great that thatcame when it did, because I
learned a huge amount about, youknow, quick, fast reporting,
(20:08):
you know more newsy style, butalso, yeah, adapting to sort of
more geopolitical analysis, andthat was something that really
interested me and also focusedand it also focused a lot on
Saudi Arabia, which at the timewas going through, and it's
still going through, a hugeamount of change.
So I was able to really get apulse on the country during this
(20:29):
moment, which, as you know, ledto the book that I wrote with
Ali El-Sinoussi, but thatrequired a whole, a way of you
know reportage that I was using,I think, with Harper's Bazaar
art, because I generally I'vealways used a more journalistic
style when I've been art inadvance.
But when you're writing on,however, when you're writing on
(20:51):
an art exhibition or artist, Imean it's definitely much more
descriptive, I'd say, and youknow you're really delving into
an artwork, looking at thebrushstrokes, sometimes even
speculating.
Delving into an artwork, lookingat the brushstrokes, sometimes
even speculating about what theartwork means to you and that's
not necessarily to you or to theaudience and then placing that
(21:12):
within a larger context of howthe artist or the curator sees
the show or what they wanted toaccomplish.
So it's a very different formof, I think, analysis and
approach than to quick, fastreportage.
So when COVID was sort offinishing and I could actually
go out and see art exhibitionsagain and write on them, I found
(21:32):
myself a little rusty and alittle flustered because I had
gotten so used to going fast,fast, fast.
Like you know, you're coveringthe Bayreuth explosion I wrote
about, not I mean for ArtNetnet,for the art newspaper, but also
I remember, I remember this,yeah, it was, yes, yeah, local
newspapers and I got very, um, Iwas very affected by it myself
(21:52):
personally, because I'm veryattached to Lebanon.
Yes, but that was all fast, youknow, very reporting style,
style of journalism.
I wouldn't say it's exhibitionreview, obviously.
So when I actually in 2000, Ithink it was what summer of 2021
or 22.
And I was able to go out andsee exhibitions that were being
(22:13):
held, I found myself in thebeginning kind of struggling,
just getting struggling to getthe words and the format right
again.
And now just getting strugglingto to get the words and the
format right again.
And now, now, now I have it,but you kind of have to shift
back and forth, um, that'sreally interesting, like I mean,
I think that I haven't heardsomeone articulate it like that
before.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So, honestly, like truly, it isn't all like you are
a journalist, but it's not allthe same type of reporting or
pace or kind of like techniquethat is required and not
everyone, I believe, can do both.
I think it's really difficult.
I think for many it's kind oflike you have a style, that's my
(22:53):
style.
I'm in that sort of box and Ican't really, you know, kind of
get out of it.
But you've managed to reallytraverse like the liminal lines
between all of many differenttypes of styles of journalism.
And then I want to circle back,since you mentioned it, and
kind of touch on the book thatyou wrote with, obviously, alia
(23:16):
Al-Sinousi, who we've had on thepodcast recently, which is why
I think it's an incredible thingthat we're having you on now
too.
Arts in Saudi Arabia.
There has not been a book ofthis kind, I believe, before.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
So I think this was kind of avery interesting and pioneering
(23:36):
book.
Can you tell me a little bitabout how it came about and the
process of writing it?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
bit about how it came about in the process of writing
it.
Uh, yes, yes, um, and just tojust to confirm no, there there
has never been a book published.
The focus is so closely oncontemporary art during this
time of change in in saudiarabia.
I mean, canvas has publishedbooks on art in the kingdom, but
that's something that lookswithin a contextual, more
analytical framework.
This is of its kind.
There was another book calledChanging Saudi Arabia.
(24:08):
It's actually in front of me,right here on my still the stack
of books that I use to researchthe book that I wrote by a
professor in the US His lastname is Folly that but looked
within, looked, looked, analyzedthe creative scene, but more
looking at, I think, youtubeskits and kind of film and
(24:31):
cinema.
And he did touch on thecreative scene, but this Ali and
I really focused oncontemporary art, since that's
the field that we both havewe're very much in and and so,
yes, it is the first of its kindand I think that's why, when
Ali approached me about workingcountry that's going through,
I'd say, you know, bombasticchanges from how it was just 10
(25:07):
years ago to how it is today.
It can be overwhelming.
But Ali reached out.
She'd seen that I'd beencovering the kingdom, you know,
for years and obviously doing alot with Arab news and other
publications focused on Saudi,and she thought I'd be the you
know, I guess, the right fit tocollaborate with someone who
(25:28):
could collaborate on the book,and I had been reporting on
various different exhibitions,like Desert X and other shows
that were happening during thisthat were taking place in 2019,
2020, you know, during a timewhere it was, people were very
hesitant to cover Saudi and Iluckily had some editors.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
That that's interesting because Alia did say
the same thing.
I mean, there was a hesitationand so you got you both of you
taking on this book, was it wasa real statement and and, given
the reception and how incrediblysuccessful it's been, I think
that it says a lot about theappetite, like I mean, obviously
people want to read more andlearn more and and, but.
(26:10):
But I mean, continue, tell memore about how, how the process
was and how the reception was.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
most importantly, yeah, um, I, I luckily had some
editors uh, at ArtNet at thetime and who you know were able
to run, or they agreed to run,some of the pieces that I
suggested and pitched, because alot of other publications and I
am a lot of other publicationswere very hesitant, were very
(26:44):
hesitant, and they, you know Iwas able to do, to do stories
that kind of tried to put incontext what was happening but
didn't, you know, shy away fromsome of the more challenging
historical, geopolitical contextthat obviously has shaped the
image of the country which is atthe time.
There was a lot of organizationseven boycotting a saudi art
organizations, among otherorganizations.
Yeah, um, so, but I was, whenalia, when alia asked approached
(27:09):
me about the book, I wasalready feeling very frustrated
because I had been doing a lotof reporting there.
Uh, I went to the first red seainternational film festival, I
mean a lot of the first events,and I was impressed.
Yes, there were things that youknow didn't go well, I mean the
you know things that could havebeen improved, but it was the
first time and it was the firsttime that a country that had
(27:31):
been more or less closed for 40years was doing this, and I
remember someone at the filmfestival, a Saudi woman told me
she was looking at a review thathad come out in an
international publication thatwas criticizing Saudi for
holding a film festival becauseof a human rights track record.
It's a human rights record,according to the international
(27:52):
community, saying, you know,we're damned if we hold a film
festival, but we're damned if wedon't, because we've been
criticized for not havingcinemas open for so many years.
And obviously the first cinema,the cinemas have opened in
saudi for the last few years andthey had been closed for
decades, even though they shouldknow that there has been a
saudi film festival that wascourageously held for I don't
(28:15):
know the amount of years, but indahran, in the eastern province
, for a long time, even beforecinemas reopened.
So I was feeling that some ofthe criticism.
Well, there are some majorchallenges.
For sure, there's challengesaround the world and there's
definitely extremely you know,there's been extremely
(28:37):
tumultuous events that havehappened over the last decade in
Saudi, as there have been inother parts of the world too.
But there's been things thathave happened over the last
decade in Saudi, as there havebeen in other parts of the world
too, but there's been thingsthat have really questioned what
it means to be what, what ourfreedom of expression means
today in the world, andobviously now we're dealing with
it almost on a daily basis,also in my own country, in
America, and in a different, ina different way.
(28:58):
Obviously without getting intothe nitty gritty, but I was
feeling frustrated because Ithought that perhaps some of the
reviews that were being writtenon and just sort of bashing
what was happening wasn't reallygiving the Saudis and some of
the artists and the creatives areal chance to speak and be
visible on their own terms.
(29:19):
Because what a government, whattakes place, um, politically in
a country is not always you knowwhat the people want or what
the people have, you know, donethemselves, and I think it's, I
think it was important to, tohave the saudi artists and
creatives you know also, uh,explain how it's been to create
over the last few decades, or oreven during this moment of
(29:40):
change.
So when aliaia asked me to dothe book, I said yes.
I knew it was going to be verychallenging, not just to put the
book together, becauseobviously there's still maybe
less so now, but there was alsofear for a while in Saudi about
international press andinterviews, because sometimes
(30:03):
they feel that they have beenmisrepresented and sort of
pigeonholed into, you know, adialogue that maybe wasn't
necessarily theirs yes yes, so I, you know, and obviously you
know they'd known me.
A lot of the artists have knownme before, you know they've.
So they trusted, know, trustedme and were able to continue
(30:24):
with the interviews.
But I also knew it was going tobe challenging for me
psychologically and it wasbecause I'm I've never had a
situation where I have to writea book appealing, trying to
cater to a Saudi audience,something that would be
acceptable and comfortable for aSaudi audience going through
change and at the same time, youknow something that would suit
(30:49):
not necessarily suit but answerinternational community or the
West, so to say, concerns aboutthe country.
And how do you bring those twohalves together?
It's almost impossible andthere are things that were, yeah
, that were very struggling forme, a huge struggle for me to
put into words, even because ofmy own upbringing.
(31:11):
I have been brought up with, youknow, an American education
that sees the world and seeslife, and I say life, society
and in certain, in certain ways,but I've also been living in in
the middle east and in thisregion and I understand other
ways of being and other ways oflooking at governments and
(31:31):
structures.
So, and also free speech, youknow how.
How does art relate to freedomof expression?
Can?
The biggest question I think inthe book is can you have, can
you have, an art scene in a, ina society that's not technically
, you know, completely free andopen by, I guess, at the time,
western standards we're seeingInteresting yeah, yeah, at the
(31:53):
time I mean right now, obviouslywe're I don't know what place
is free and completely free andopen.
I think that that needs to be.
That could be another podcastor a very challenging one.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Exactly, it's such an interesting question and I
think I think it actually iskind of perfect the dynamic of
you as well as Alia writing thisbook, because I don't think it
would have worked otherwise hadit been just the perspective of
someone who perhaps is MiddleEastern or perhaps Western or
either, or I think it is adialogue that requires a back
(32:27):
and forth and kind of like aperspective that is another.
And how did you feel thereception was?
I mean, I saw that I went toone talk for the book at Art
Week back at Al-Sirqal Avenue inNovember last year and I mean
it was like a full house.
There was like no space to sit.
(32:48):
People obviously have beeninterested.
How has the feedback been?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Well, it's been very good.
After I finished it I think Iwanted to run into the ocean or
the sea and just like forget thewhole thing.
It was a lot to put to it.
Just writing a book in generalis hard, it's just very hard.
I think, no matter what genreof book you're writing, this one
I had to, you know, beconcerned Not just because of
(33:16):
the sort of cultural, social andcultural innuendos between you
know, the region and theinternational community, but
also just because there'sosbetween you know, the region and
the international community,but also just because there's
not, there's very, there's verylittle documentation on the
Saudi art scene and Saudi arthistory in Saudi.
So we're also concerned withyou know, if there's mistakes or
inaccuracies.
So it was just, it waschallenging, but I've been
(33:41):
really happy that we've peoplehave been so interested in the
book and it seems to have soldreally well.
I mean, people keep, when itcame out, people kept telling me
they're buying copies.
I've we've been asked to speakmany times in London at various
different venues and conferences.
Presented the book in Paris.
Conferences presented the bookin Paris, new York, dubai,
(34:12):
riyadh.
It's been presented andreceived quite well.
I mean, obviously there has beenone or two voices from abroad,
who've from abroad, who've maybecriticized it slightly for not
going more heavily into acritical tone of different
practices and the state ofaffairs perhaps in the country
(34:33):
or the Gulf, but I was expectingthat.
I think it's the geopoliticallens in which people view art
and culture in the region.
That comes from abroad is goingto always be challenging
because things are being done ina different way, it's a
different time for the region,and so I expected that, I tried
(34:56):
to, we tried to answer to, wetried to sort of foresee the
criticism and and we answered tothat and and obviously people
are going to have differentviewpoints, but overall I got,
you know, we've received goodfeedback and I think it's
answered questions.
And the major question whichthe publisher presented to is,
(35:19):
you know, is Saudi Arabia?
Is this art washing?
And I don't.
I don't believe that what theGulf countries are doing with
art and culture is is completelyart washing, um, and I think
you have to be really carefulwith that term.
And so we were.
We used this opportunity to totackle a real difficult question
by delving into the the historyof the culture, of the society
(35:42):
of a country that has been verymisunderstood and that had most
people do not.
Most people had no historicaland cultural context, um of so I
think there's a lot of positive, um, yeah, a lot of positive
things have come from it.
I mean, obviously there's stilla lot of misunderstanding, um,
especially as all eyes right noware on the gulf, um, you know,
(36:03):
not just in our culture, but forbusiness.
I mean, you've just had theannouncement of our Basel Qatar
taking place in Doha.
Yes, there are challenges here,there's challenges elsewhere,
but ultimately, what I alsotried to show in the book and
you know, the term art washingobviously is challenging,
problematic, I don't even likesaying it and the term art
(36:39):
washing obviously is challenging, problematic, I don't even like
saying it but to counteract gas, because they're very aware of
the need to diversify theireconomies and that in itself, to
explain that and delve deepinto it, which I don't think a
lot of art journals have done,and I can understand why,
because this is very much, thisis very much a business idea, a
(37:02):
business but also a culturalidea was important in the book.
And to give a history of also,what does a creative economy
mean and why is?
The ultimate question is why isSaudi investing so much money
in art.
You could ask the same questionwhy is Qatar investing so much
money in art?
Why has the UAE done it?
Why is this important for thesecountries?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
And we tried to in a very short amount of pages,
answer these huge questions, andfor me I think it's really
interesting.
I mean, obviously you touchedon pretty much all of the topics
, I believe, that were top ofmind in that book and the idea
of a creative economy isessentially it's what we're
going through.
I mean, everyone keeps sayingit's a cultural renaissance and
that's exactly kind of what itis.
(37:51):
But building the creativeeconomy from scratch, kind of
reshaping it, what's going on?
All of these questions wouldnot have been answered in a
short form article or, like youknow, even a podcast or et
cetera.
It needed sort of like a longform book that you would be able
to read and perhaps understandmore.
So I just completelycongratulate you on taking on
(38:14):
this project, because I think itwas a big risk, but I think it
definitely kind of completelytook you as a journalist in your
career and as a writer into atotally new realm.
I think my next question for youis obviously we've spoken about
so many roles that you've takenin the world of journalism as
(38:36):
an editor, as a writer, as anindependent journalism.
So, journalist, I just want toknow what career advice would
you give to kind of someone whois looking to become, I want to
say a journalist, but I mean,we're in the digital age, so
obviously you can be ajournalist in many different
(38:56):
ways.
Now Do you have any greatcareer advice that you've kind
of used over the years?
And also, how is it that youkind of continue to pick up
projects that are interestingfor you?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
because now I know that you're in a place where you
kind of have a lot of choice,which is amazing yeah, um, I
think my advice would probablybe more character building,
because I something that Ialways hear in my head,
especially during reallydifficult moments, because I've
had, you know, I've done,obviously, I've taken on some
(39:30):
very interesting projects, butthere's been moments where I've
wanted to quit and I haven'twanted to.
I haven't wanted to finish aproject or I haven't wanted to
finish an article, or I askedmyself why have I done this?
Or I haven't wanted to finishan article, or I ask myself why
have I done this?
I just hear a voice that saysyou know, keep going, you know,
just show up.
And I'm also a former ballerina.
I trained very seriously inuniversity and I think that
(39:58):
discipline of always getting upand always going on it's given
me a stamina and a grit that Ithink has helped me a lot in
this industry, which is verychallenging.
I think it's particularlychallenging at the moment
because no one knows what totrust, what to read.
People aren't reading as much.
I have editors that tell me youknow, write 300, 500 words, not
800 or a thousand, which isunderstandable because people
(40:19):
scroll these days they're muchmore social media reading
attacks.
So I have moments where, youknow, I ask you know why am I
doing this?
And it's hard, and you alsodeal with a lot of difficult
personalities, because deadlinesare such a bane of our
existence as writers or editorsor authors, or editors or
(40:40):
authors.
But the thing that's alwayscarried me forward is to, even
if I'm feeling really, reallydown and having one of the worst
days, is to get up and just trymy best and go forward.
It's been hard for me sometimesto give boundaries and limits.
(41:01):
I think and maybe that alsocomes from dance, because we
were trained to always kind ofget up and be resilient and keep
moving.
I think it's really important.
I will emphasize and I knowyou're also a Pilates teacher,
noor yes, I'm a Pilates teacher.
I am a big believer in self-care.
I often give myself moreself-care and more balance, and
I think that if, whateverindustry you're going into today
(41:24):
, I think we're all faced with alot of challenges, because our
entire environment is changingin good ways but also, I think,
in negative ways.
You know there's the rise of AIand tech is.
They're very exciting andpositive tools, but we still
don't quite know yet how to usethem.
And so I think that you know,and I think we're in a moment of
(41:49):
a lot of uncertainty.
You could argue that anytime inhistory there's been a lot of
uncertainty, but there's a lotof changes in the way we deal
with our daily life andexistence and travels and
whatnot.
So I, yeah, my biggest advice isis to have faith and to believe
in yourself and to go on evenwhen it's really hard.
And I now, you know, I've beenon my own more or less running
(42:10):
my own business since I leftHarper's and that's also been
hard, because sometimes you knowyou deal with a variety of
different clients and cash flowand and and that that presents
its own challenges.
So I just, I constantly tellmyself you know, just keep going
.
And if you can keep going, ifyou can keep moving it's like if
you're, if you're a runner, ifyou're a dancer, if you can keep
(42:32):
moving, you know you're goingto get to your destination.
Something will happen.
You're putting energy out thereand so it will come back.
But at the same time, be bekind to yourself.
I haven't always been as kindas I should be to myself, so
that's my advice In terms of howI keep finding interesting
projects.
I think you know, after acertain point in one's career,
(42:57):
first you're chasing things,first you're pitching.
You know you're putting a lotout there, a lot of energy, yeah
, then it comes.
I still pitch.
I still have to, you know, getout there and give an idea and
maybe someone likes it.
Maybe they don't like it, maybethey don't even respond, but
you get to a point where thingsyou know things do come to you,
they present themselves to youas opportunities and I think
(43:19):
that's that's been nice over thelast few years.
Things have come to me.
The Saudi book was somethingthat came to me.
I didn't pitch that idea, I wasfeeling I mean it was almost
like I manifested it because Iwas feeling so frustrated that
things that the changes in Saudisort of the art scene and
society, I didn't feel that itwas being presented in a
(43:39):
balanced way internationally.
And then suddenly Ali presentedthis book to me and other
things that I, other clients andopportunities have also come up
.
I've done a lot with Africa.
We didn't talk about that, butit's been, you know, a big part
of also my love and interestsand art and African society.
(44:00):
And so like I'm supporting, I'dlike to support a school of a
school in the Congo for girlscalled Malaika.
I now sponsor a child.
But I was invited right when Ileft Harper's by Noella Kosadas,
who's just, who's moving toDubai, who's the founder, she's
Congolese Cypriot and she'smoving to Dubai in July.
(44:22):
But she invited me and rightwhen I was leaving the magazine
and I decided to accept and togo and from that I've learned a
lot about the Congolese artscene.
I've been able to learn aboutthe school and support when I
can.
So I think things, if you havean open mind and an open heart,
(44:43):
I think things come to you.
I mean other clients too, likeI'm doing a little bit of PR and
communications now for a fewdifferent entities in Dubai and
some other luxury brands, andthese have kind of come word of
mouth.
Keep open-minded about, aboutlife and about being creative
(45:07):
and being, you know, curious.
I think things reallyinteresting, things come.
I curated a show, my first evershow in Africa, at a gallery in
Lagos in November that was.
Yeah, that was cool.
It was a bit nerve wrackingbecause I've never done that in
Africa before, but that wasexperience to where I mean
they're mostly they're all young, young to mid-career artists.
So I definitely, you know, Ithink, seize the opportunity,
(45:33):
try not to doubt yourself.
I definitely continue to doubtmyself in moments, but then I
just tell myself to go and showup and try my best and and
something, something good willcome, even if you know you, you
will make mistakes.
I've made many mistakes in mycareer and something good will
come, even if you know you willmake mistakes.
I've made many mistakes in mycareer and I'm sure I will
continue to make them, whetherit's a small typo or something
else.
But I think the important partis that you just you wake up the
(45:56):
next day, or even if it'sduring the day, and you just go
on again and you try and go onin a way that has a good
intention and I think goodthings will come.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I love that, I really do.
And I think it brings usperfectly to my final question,
which is, since the podcast iscalled the Curation, I would
love to know kind of what isyour curation, curated by
Rebecca, to know kind of what isyour curation, curated by
Rebecca, of things that are kindof like non-negotiables in your
(46:29):
life, that are, you know,pillars that keep you either
motivated, that you can't gowithout, that you'd love to
recommend to the audience, andit can be anything you know from
, like a drink or a sport orwhatever it is uh well, I loved,
I still love, to dance.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I'm um dance and do and do pilates.
I'm a very active person and Ifind myself, if I don't, if I
don't do this, if I don't workout or do something physical, I
mean almost on a daily basis I Iknow that sounds probably
extreme for some people, but Ithink it's because I trained so
much as a child and into myearly adult life that keeps me
(47:08):
sane, and if I don't, if I can'tdo it, I just find myself
getting a little bit moreagitated.
And so that's definitely anaspect of my life that I'm
trying to, no matter what, evenif I'm on holiday with friends
or if I'm on a work trip, if Ihave to go to the gym or do
something in my room, likethat's something that I need to
have in my life and I need to beeven more disciplined about
(47:29):
keeping it in my life.
Yeah, yeah, and I know, I knowyou have a similar passion, but
I do.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
I mean the first.
The thing that I love most isthat you know if you're here
like covering something soimportant as, for example, the
grand addiction museum, you'relike, but I need to go to
pilates class, I need to I mean,I don't know like how do you
find time to do that, rebecca?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
but but you do.
It probably seems ridiculous toa lot of people because the
most important you're, you know,the most important thing I'm
there to do is to cover gem inthe museum like I.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
I think my audience loves like little details like
that, because that's how youkeep yourself like functioning
at a high level.
No, like yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I think.
But I also realized, you know,there's a saying in Italian,
I'll say it in English that yousounds probably more more sexy
in Italian, more romantic, butyou learn something.
You learn different things andyou kind of put them aside and
then they come back and they allwork together.
Like I think, going to aPilates class with you, noor,
and Cairo, and training with you, like I'm also immersing myself
(48:33):
into, into the culture of Cairoand I'm meeting new people and
you never know, like I could askthose people what their
thoughts are on the GrandEgyptian Museum, or I could.
You know, this gives me, thisadds to my experience, and so
I'm not just there, I'm going ona reporting.
I mean, obviously it isimportant to go on to do the
work and to do what you're thereto do, but I really love
(48:55):
immersing myself in the cultures.
Of course that's a key thingfor me.
I don't like the idea ofparachute journalism.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I mean not to not to criticize other people's style,
but I really I like to go to aplace and build a relationship
and come back and you knowwhether it's successful in so
many, in so many ways, likeyou'll fully immerse, you'll go
out to dinner, you'll, you'llspeak to people and create kind
of like a community wherever yougo, and that way you have, like
you said, perspectives If youneed opinions, if you need more
perspective for your articles.
(49:30):
It's incredible, but so youmentioned dance and Pilates.
What else is a non-negotiablefor you?
Speaker 2 (49:36):
I mean I love, I love going, I love food, I love
eating well, so I love going outfor a really good meal and a
drink with friends or family.
That's key for me, in whatevercountry I'm in.
I really love having a goodmeal with people around me I
meanines, or just relishingcuisines that I love.
I mean, obviously I loveItalian food, but I also love
(50:07):
Asian.
I love Arab food, arabic food.
I love Persian food, so, yeah,eating well.
I love music.
I mean I listen to music likeall day long.
I sometimes take breaks whenI'm writing or doing work and
listen to music.
I have to dance around my house.
I know that seems probablycrazy, but like that's something
(50:29):
that I kind of is part of how Ioperate.
Um, and yeah, so I mean music.
I love electronic music, um,from classical electronic to,
you know, rap, r&b but, yeah,I've, I listened to a lot of
electronic recently.
Um, and reading a good book um,when I have a time when I have,
(50:50):
I always try and read as much asI can.
I'm probably not reading asmuch as I used to, just life is
so hectic these days, but Ialways like to have a good book,
um, with me and um, and, yeah,I also love when I'm in dubai
and well, also in rome.
I live between rome and dubainow I, I love water, I love
going to the beach or to thepool.
(51:12):
I, water is really importantfor me.
I think I am someone that is alittle bit, probably hyperactive
, and I I have a lot ofdifferent passions, a lot of
things I want to do, and justwater is something, you know,
it's an element that reallycalms me and I just I really
need to be in places that have abody of water nearby.
(51:32):
You know, in Italy, I lovegoing to the beach or being in
the sea on a boat.
In Dubai, the same thing.
I love going to the beach withfriends or just even on my own
sometimes.
So it's, yeah, this is kind ofwhat what comes to me.
I do do yoga, I try and alsomeditate, if I can.
I try and meditate every daysometimes it happens, sometimes
it doesn't but um that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Honestly, I feel like that is the most kind of
romanticized answer I've evergotten.
It's like and living betweenRome and Dubai forever.
I will be so jealous of this.
It's like the most beautifulbalance.
But thank you so much, Rebecca,for your time, for your
insights and your perspective.
I'm so happy that I finally gotyou on the podcast and I'm sure
(52:17):
this is going to be the firstof many episodes to come.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Oh, thank you for having me, Noor.
It's been a great pleasure,Thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Thank you for listening.
Make sure to follow at Rebeccaand Proctor on Instagram to keep
up and stay updated with all ofRebecca's newest ventures, and
at the Creation Podcast for ourupcoming episodes.
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