Open Opposites: Listening Across Differences

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam (00:06):
Do you ever wish for a place where you can ask real
questions without a fight?
Do you ever want to sit withpeople who see the world
differently than you and stillfeel connected?
Do you ever crave a circle thatlistens more than it lectures
and leaves you a little morehuman than when you arrived?

(00:28):
If this is you, welcome to theCurious Crew Podcast.
One honest question with manyvoices and with real connection.
It's where we listen first andwe practice curiosity with
kindness and then become curiousfriends together.
So without further ado, let'sget curious.
Hey y'all, welcome to theCurious Crew podcast where we

(00:57):
believe that curiosity leads toconnection.
So each episode, we pose onecurious question voted on by the
Curious Crew to our panel ofcurious people, and we get
curious about our thoughts andperspectives, and hopefully grow
into uh curious friendstogether.

Colette (01:16):
Just like uh every month in person, more details on
that later.
We're gonna get warmed up andkick things off by having the
folks around the table with usshare their name and their
answer to the curious quickie.
If you were a beverage, whatbeverage would you be?
Oh my, who wants to go first?

Rhys (01:37):
So, how adult are we allowed to be?

Sam (01:40):
Super adult, because we're all adults.
We're all adults.
Well, in most situations, I wasthinking about this.

Rhys (01:46):
I would be a Stella Artois.

Sam (01:48):
Continue.

Rhys (01:49):
Crisp, classy, and a wonderful finish.

Sam (01:53):
Okay, okay, okay.

Rhys (01:55):
And my name is Reese.
Thank you for having me.

Sam (01:58):
Yeah.
Reese, also known as StellaAntois.

Rhys (02:02):
Artois.

Sam (02:03):
Artois.

Colette (02:03):
That beer.
Pardon me.
The fancy ass beer.

Sam (02:05):
Oh, you're a fancy ass beer?

Rhys (02:07):
Fancy ass.
You've never heard of StellaArtois.

Sam (02:09):
Listen, look at me.

Colette (02:10):
I mean Does he look like he's drinking Stella
Artois?

Sam (02:14):
No.
No.
Well, you would be incorrect.

Rhys (02:18):
Well, that I want you to report back, have one in the
next week, and you tell me ifyou've been living.

Sam (02:23):
Okay.
Okay.
I can do that.
I can do that.
Well, I can follow that reallyeasy because uh most of you
don't know.
I have some weird dietaryissues.
So I drink an excessive amountof water.
Okay.
And so I have actual di I lookat water as actually different
little types of water.
So my favorite water isactually comes from Aldi's.

(02:44):
It's sparkling water, it'sunflavored, it's called View.
And uh it's like me.
It's got just the right amountof crispness, uh, but eventually
it goes flat pretty quick.
And uh here reading yourself.
Okay, that's right.
And and if you really want tohave a good Friday night, you
can put a little bit of a limewedge in it, and uh I'll let you

(03:05):
just really going crazy withthat lime wedge.
I said it was a Friday.

Rhys (03:11):
We're comparing this to our personalities.
I think you should choose adifferent.

Sam (03:17):
Hey, I'm just saying this how I exist.
That's that's me as a beverage.

Rhys (03:21):
No, I love it.
Thank you.

Sam (03:23):
Waters are different, aren't they?

Theo (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Huh.
It almost changed my answer.
Almost.
Um I my name is Theo, um, and Iwould be uh chocolate coconut
water.
Oh yeah, that's your thing.
Yes, and it's finally here.

(03:44):
Yeah.
Oh my god, because the firstplace I had it was in New York,
and so I didn't think it was,but um, okay.
It it and and it's so coconutwater is not inherently creamy.
No, no, but this adds acreaminess without changing the
texture of coconut water.
So it's like all the good stuffof coconut water plus

(04:08):
chocolate.

Colette (04:09):
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, I could get behind that,like a mounds and a drink.

Sam (04:14):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Colette (04:17):
Yeah.
Hmm.
I'm Colette.
Um, my pronouns are the andthem.
Let's see, what what would mydrink be?
Um, I don't know, probably rootbeer.
I've loved it for so long.
I even used to make it likeZataran's used to have a
concentrate.

Sam (04:36):
Oh, yeah.

Colette (04:37):
And I would make it with just flat tap water.

Sam (04:40):
Oh.

Colette (04:40):
Everyone around me thought it was absolutely vile
and I could not get enough ofit.
Um why are you laughing at meso hard, Theo?
What is Zataran's root beermix?
Why not?
Why not?
Yeah.
It's Louisiana.
Yeah.

Theo (04:54):
That's that is that Louisiana in root beer.
Root beer is Louisiana.

Colette (05:00):
Well, no, like the the core ingredient um is sassafras
is is produced here.
And sugar cane is high isheavily produced in Louisiana.
So root beer is like veryquintessentially Louisiana in a
lot of ways.
Yeah.
Um Okay.
But and that's not what I'mtrying to say about myself at
all, is that I'm quintallybecause being quintessentially

(05:21):
Louisiana feels like I'm justreading myself.
What is this self-deprecation?

Sam (05:25):
Yeah.
Well, you're sassapras, yoursweet sassafrasy or no.

Colette (05:29):
Um I don't know.
Like I'm an acquired taste.
Some people hate me, somepeople love me.
Yeah, that's what I think I'mtrying to say.
Okay.
That I'm a polarizing figure inpeople's lives.
But I like sweet and sassafras.
That is we do.
Yeah, you're not wrong, Reese.
You, you're not wrong.

Sam (05:47):
So I'll just start calling you sassafras then.
That's good.
I think I also forgot to say myname.

Rhys (05:52):
I think you did.
What is your name?

Sam (05:54):
My name is Sam.

Rhys (05:54):
Sam?
Sam Sparkling Water Sam.

Sam (05:57):
Sparkling Water Sam.
Sassafras Calip.
Tella.
Ever rap, if you ever need arap name.

Theo (06:03):
Yeah, that's Sparkling Water Sam.

Sam (06:06):
Yeah, watch me sell negative copies.
There's a market.
There's an audience, right?
We'll try that out.
We'll try that out.

Colette (06:14):
Well, on the next episode of Curious Group, Sam,
uh Theo's gonna teach Sam how tobeatbox and rap.
Um audio train wreck.

Theo (06:25):
Lots of spit.

Colette (06:26):
Well, now that we're all uh warmed up, we can move on
to our curious question for theepisode, which is how do you
approach understanding someonewhose views or beliefs are
completely different from yourown?

Sam (06:40):
Ooh, that's a deep one.
So just to frame things up,though, we do have some rules,
but I we typically call it acode, the curious code.
So here it is.
It's real easy, but it's alsoreal hard.
Uh the first one is respect umbeats being right.
So we we respect each other,period.
That's that's uh number one.

(07:01):
The second one is we listen up,we try not to interrupt.
I know it's hard to do with uhconversations sometimes,
especially when we're reallyconnecting, but uh try to listen
uh really closely.
Uh keep an open mind becausehey, there's uh billions and
billions of people in the world.
That means there's probablybillions and billions plus two
perspectives of seeing it.

(07:22):
Um the big one is we alwaysrespond with curiosity.
So when somebody shares theiranswer, the goal is to always
respond, not with what we wantto offer into their to the
conversation, but offer aquestion uh to understand it
better, to dig into a part ofwhat they said, uh, or what have

(07:42):
you.
And lastly, this is really justa wrap-up of all of them, is we
just make this a safe space uhfor everyone every time.
So with that, let's get curiousand just reiterate the question
one more time, because this isa pretty big one.
Uh, how do you approachunderstanding someone whose
views or beliefs are completelydifferent than yours?

(08:02):
Ooh.
Who wants to go first?

Colette (08:08):
I'll go first.
I have lots of thoughts aboutthis.

Sam (08:12):
I bet you do.

Colette (08:13):
Yeah, so a lot of my work is around working with
people who are vastly differentfrom each other and from me.
Uh and you know, working withclients and patients, the thing
that, you know, the people thatwe're serving.
Um I get this question a lotfrom my students is like, if
somebody says something somorally objectionable to me that

(08:35):
I just can't, you know, hardlystand being in the same room
with them, then what do I do?
Which is like the most extremeversion of this question, I
think.
Um, and what I always tellfolks is to be a student of the
person.
And because when you're astudent, you're setting yourself
uh in a in a position ofpotentially less power.

(09:00):
Uh, but it also like gets youmore curious about where they
are and um allows you to takeoff all of your expertise and
what you think you know aboutthe person um uh and their
beliefs and helps you um justlike settle into the into the
space with them and listendifferently to the point of like

(09:22):
what we're doing here as well.
Um and then alongside that istrying to as much as I can have
empathy for that person and liketry to get in their shoes.
Like, why does this personbelieve what they believe?
Um asking that question, Idon't know, just puts you in a

(09:45):
different head space altogetherof trying to understand rather
than change someone's mind.
I think, especially right now,we want to change a lot of
people's minds.
I know I do.
Uh, but what that does is justget people defensive.
And if you want to like openconversation with somebody who's

(10:05):
different than you, you have torecognize that people are
probably gonna be defensive, andthat's okay.
Um, but how do you, you know,connect with them in a way that
brings down those defenses andhelps them explore why they
believe what they believe andalso sharing what you believe is

(10:27):
is all part of the equation.
And so seeing that person as aexpert in their own worldview,
that I'm a student of theirexpertise, has helped me a lot
um in connecting with a lot ofpeople who are different than
me.
Um so yeah, that's my kind ofsimple answer to the more very

(10:49):
complicated question.

Sam (10:51):
So to hit the part you said in the most extreme, so what
how do you handle someone whodoes share something or say
something that is, you know,morally objection or ethically
objectionable?
Like I mean, I would assumeit's the same framework, but
also you know, yeah, it kind ofdepends on your role in their

(11:13):
life.

Colette (11:13):
You know, like the students that I'm working with,
they're spiritual caregivers andleaders in their community.
Um, they're trying to supportpeople.
And so when when that'shappening, I just to kind of
remind people that remember whyyou're there.
You're not there to uh changepeople's minds, right?
Um if you're trying to givecare to somebody, that should be

(11:36):
the last thing on your mind istrying to change them.
Uh instead, it's to try andsupport them.
And so what what is whatthey're saying trying to tell
you about them?
Um it's probably trying to,they're probably trying to tell
you something about theirvalues, their ethics, what's
important to them.
Um and so just remembering yourrole in their life.

(11:58):
Now, I think it's a bit moretricky when it's like a
peer-to-peer relationship,right?
And it's like a friend orfamily.
Family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Family is rough, it's probablythe roughest one.
And so trying to figure thatout.
I don't know if I have ananswer to it.
Um honestly, I'm that'sprobably dealing with family

(12:22):
around issues that that we'relike super different from.
Um, I haven't had a lot ofsuccess, I'll just be really
honest, within my family aboutthis.
So I feel like I I can do thisliterally everywhere else except
for my family.
But I think that's because bothpeople, both parties have to be

(12:44):
willing to be a student of theother person's experience.
Like I think there's some sortof social contract that has to
happen where both parties haveto see each other as inherently
good in order for thatconversation to happen in a
healthy way.
And that hasn't necessarilybeen my experience of like that
the people that I'm within myfamily that I'm talking to don't

(13:05):
necessarily see me as likeinherently good.

Sam (13:08):
Yeah.

Colette (13:08):
Or um that my viewpoint is as good as theirs or
whatever, you know.
So um, I don't know, that'sharder.
Yeah.
Um, and I think there is somuch morally objectionable
viewpoints out there right now,and um I kind of do feel like as

(13:30):
much as we can, we should betrying to change some minds and
hearts around stuff.
Um but that can't be the onlygoal of conversations, is to get
trying to get people to change.
I quit that game a long timeago.

Rhys (13:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, and at what point So alot of what you're saying is
staying curious, the seekingfirst understand.
But maybe to Sam's question,because it's a little bit of
what I was thinking too, is atwhat point do you start to
sacrifice some of your ownwell-being in the pursuit of
seeking to understand?

(14:04):
And at what point do you justsay, you know what?
I know that we're not mutuallyseeing each other in a
respectful way, and if I engagein this conversation, it's going
to be more hurtful than it isbeneficial to my own
self-esteem.
Um because boundaries areunfortunately something we have
to employ often.

Sam (14:25):
Well, no, that's what I was thinking when when Colette
talked about believing you knowsomebody's you know good and all
that stuff.
But empathy you were talkingabout.
And in a way, I think giving uhsetting a boundary is
empathetic.
Absolutely.
Yeah, because you're like, hey,there's gonna be harm in this

(14:48):
interaction.
So the most compassionate,empathetic, you know, thing I
could do is set a boundary andallow you not to progress any
further to cause harm.
Or to yourself.
Right.
Yeah.

Colette (15:01):
Yeah.
Uh my uh one of my educators,Tammy Woolver, she uh used to
always quote, you know, and say,Love is boundaries, bound
having boundaries is love.
It's the most purest form oflove that you can have.
And I really agree with thatbecause it's it's a form of love
not just for the other person,but for yourself.
And when you're if you'retalking with somebody who isn't

(15:26):
that you fix you feel likeyou're experiencing violence
from, it is love to yourself tohave a boundary to say, like,
this is where I can no longerparticipate in this dynamic.
Sure.
Um I've definitely been there.
I'm there right now with uhwith certain family members.
So I um like I said, I don'thave the answer to it, but I do

(15:52):
think boundaries are a part ofthis equation where if somebody
can't see the harm that they'redoing, even in the conversation,
it's harder to have aconversation, right?
Um if somebody doesn't see umthat what they're saying is not
just harmful on a on aphilosophical level, but like on

(16:13):
a personal level, right?
Um for for me, it's like familysentiment around the LGBT
community, um and uh and thendifferences in religious per
perspective.
Like these are deeply personalidentity questions and topics

(16:34):
that we're talking about.
If they're being had in like avery like laxadaisical,
willy-nilly kind of way, and youjust say whatever messed up
nonsense is on your mind aboutabout that com about my
community, I'm like, uh, I mightbe second guessing how I'm
gonna interact with you in thefuture.
So in that case, where there ispotential harm, I think I enter

(16:59):
the seeking to understand witha bit more guard and protection
of the self for sure.

Rhys (17:06):
Yeah.

Colette (17:07):
It's a weird balance.

Rhys (17:09):
Um and I think um I don't know if I'm following the
Curious Crew principles herebecause I'm having a hard time
not building on rather than justresponding to the question.

Colette (17:20):
Well, build.
Build.

Rhys (17:22):
We're gonna build.
But I think it to your point,Colette, it is interesting in a
workplace where, for example,there are expectations of proper
use of my pronouns in theworkplace.
No matter who or where you comefrom, there is a professional
standard that must be adhered toand must be followed.
And I am grateful for thoseprotections because if I set the

(17:44):
standard, for example, hey, I'mReese, he they pronouns, and
somebody is just deliberatelynot using my pronouns
accurately, that gives me somesubstance, right?
To raise that, that doesn'thappen to me, luckily.
Um, but but then you take itout of context where you have
those protections of it in theprofessional workplace and into

(18:04):
family, into friendships, andit's a whole nother ballgame.

Colette (18:10):
Yeah.

Rhys (18:10):
Um, which you would think it's not, right?
Right.
Because family should be theones who love you most
transparently.

Sam (18:17):
Um I wish.
Where the you probably get hurtthe most.
Yeah, yeah.

Rhys (18:22):
And where boundaries are needed the most.

Sam (18:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Colette (18:25):
Any thoughts, Theo?
Questions, thoughts?

Theo (18:29):
Um Yeah, a bunch, but like uh I didn't want to build yes.

Colette (18:38):
And we're we're in the building space.
Oh yeah.

Theo (18:41):
But like uh, but it honestly, everything you're
saying is m making me realizethe way I've been approaching
people lately is with way moreguard and scrutiny.
Oh.
Um, because I just don't wantto be hurt.
Like, I have enough that'salready hurt me, that's

(19:03):
currently hurt.
Like, I have a very specificrelationship to pain.
Um, we were talking about thison the write over, and like but
that's physical pain.
Uh emotional pain is like asmuch as you go through it and as
used to it as you get, itdoesn't get any easier to deal
with.
Nope.

(19:24):
Whereas physical pain, like,I've experienced a 13 out of 10
physical pain.
And while I wouldn't want to gothrough it, I'd probably be
better at it than I was thefirst time.

Sam (19:36):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Theo (19:37):
My son hurt my feelings so badly the other day.
Oh.
He's one.
He can't say completesentences.
Pulling diapers, correct?
He's still in diapers?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

Sam (19:50):
Still shits himself.

Theo (19:51):
Yeah.
And it was like, it it remindedme of when I was nine years
old, and the first time mymother said something that hurt
my feelings.
Like equal impact.
You know, there's been nearly40 years different, no change in

(20:13):
my response.
You know what I mean?
And like I'm at a point in mylife where I just I don't have I
either have the bandwidth tofully pursue the things that I
feel passionate about or dealwith somebody who can't stand

(20:35):
the fact that I'm doing that.
Yeah.
But not both.
And so when I meet new peopleor when I look to expand a
relationship, even, you know,because I compartmentalize a
lot, but I'm sure everybodycompartmentalizes to a degree.
And like there's certain partsof yourself you you don't allow

(20:58):
people until you can feel likeyou can trust them.

Sam (21:00):
Yeah.

Theo (21:01):
And even then, when there is a history and there is a
backstory and you have all thesethings, I'm still just like it
doesn't take much for me to shutit back down, you know, and
like being curious and open, youhave to have some of that
available.
And I'm just like prove it.

(21:22):
Prove that this conversation isworth it.
You prove it to me.
Why should I come into it withcuriosity and openness when you
are giving me every every cevery hint, every clue that like
what you have to say is goingto make me just retract my

(21:45):
invitation.

Sam (21:46):
Yeah.

Theo (21:47):
You know, and so like I want to call it wisdom, but it's
it's more just like a fearresponse.

Colette (21:56):
Yeah.
Um emotional survival.
Yeah, yeah.
Kind of demands someguardedness.

Theo (22:02):
And so, like, because I like what everything you
described is everything I wantto do.

Colette (22:09):
Yeah.

Theo (22:09):
It's how I want to go into it.
I want to go in with like anopen mind and just make these
clear-headed decisions in themoment, you know, but that
requires a mastery of my ownemotions that like I don't know
if I have right now.
You know, like but I still wantto know.

(22:30):
I still want to know more aboutpeople, I still want to get
closer to people, I still wantto have these experiences.
Um but it also answers thequestion of like why it gets
harder to make friends as youget older.

Sam (22:42):
Oh, yeah, that's a good point.

Theo (22:44):
Oh, I never thought about that.
I didn't either.
I didn't I I've always known itwas a thing, but I didn't I
didn't put that to that.

Sam (22:52):
And I just thought, like, you get older, you just get less
friends.
You think they're dying.
You think all those peopleknow, you know.
No, you've you've sectionedyourself off because of prior
experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good point.

Colette (23:05):
Yeah.
I remember when I like I so in2020, I was like figuring out
whether or not I was gonna getmarried, and um, one of my big
things was like, I'm worried,you know, if I'm I'm afraid that
she's gonna hurt me and thatI'm not gonna be able to recover
from that, or like theemotional pain was keeping me
from like embracing the love,right?

(23:27):
And I remember saying to mytherapist when I finally reached
like a point of being readywhere I was like, okay, I think
any pain I might endure is worththe love I might also
experience.
Yeah.
And so like that's somethingthat was one of those points in

(23:52):
time where, and I brought thatwhen I moved here to New
Orleans, and I was uh tellingTheo, like I moved to New
Orleans, uh making a decisionthat my life is gonna be
different than it was.
And that was one of them waslike, I'm gonna I'm gonna stay
open even if it hurts.
Um I'm yeah, also I call itpain calculus is like am I will

(24:14):
yeah, Sam has heard that toomany times for me.
Um the the pain calculus islike is that hopefully the love
outweigh the pain, right?
Um, the connection, thewhatever, the curiosity, the the
openness that it all willoutweigh any pain I might
endure.
But I also like I still am abit pain averse emotion from an

(24:39):
emotional perspective.
I'm right there with you.
I deal with chronic pain everyday.
I I would be happily, happilydeal with physical pain over
emotional pain every damn day ofthe week.

Sam (24:51):
I think everybody would I think that's probably
ubiquitously human.
Yeah.

Rhys (24:55):
Well, I think that the uh what I was hearing you say,
which I love too, is you justneed there's a certain bar of
trust you need to see that thatperson is going to care for
tenderly what you are divulgingto them.

Sam (25:08):
Yeah.

Rhys (25:08):
And if it is not there, it's not worth it.
Yeah.
Um, I was just watching apodcast with Emma Watson.
Emma Watson, Barry Potter,Watson.
Oh, okay, yeah.
And she was I loved it.
She was talking about how sheshe hasn't acted, I think, in
like seven or nine years.
Really?
Why?
And she said it was reallybeautiful action.
She was talking about how sheis such a high performer, for

(25:32):
example.
She will go into anything withher whole heart, give everything
to the project, to the movie,to the whatever, to Harry
Potter, and she's aperfectionist.
Yeah.
And she got to a point whereshe it almost killed her, she
said.
Like it was extraordinarilypainful because what she learned
through that process was thatnot everybody cared about her as

(25:56):
much as she cared about it, orwhatever it is she was doing
that she was giving to.
And she said that is why shehas not acted as much or maybe
not had as many friends, right?
Because she just needs to knownow that anything she goes into,
any people she engages with,she needs to know she's going to
be cared for, respected,helped, supported through that

(26:20):
entire creative process.
And I kind of love that becauseI feel like it's really
applicable to what you're sayingof like, I need to know that if
I'm gonna engage with you, thatyou're gonna be looking out for
me as much as like I'm lookingout for me.
Um or or sounds like aboundary.

Theo (26:36):
A boundary.
What's a good green flag foryou?

Sam (26:43):
See?
That's a good one, Theo.
You know what's up.

Rhys (26:47):
Um, well, I mean, that's hard.
It can be hard, but I think youhit it, hit on it.
If I meet somebody new or Iengage with somebody new, um, if
I engage with family membersand my anxieties within are
going up, my cortisol levels aregoing up, my brain is starting
to get anxious, something isoff.

(27:09):
Um, and I think I've learnedthat.
I used to just think, oh,there's something wrong with me
that like all my spidey sensesand red flags are going up
within, and if I could just kindof get to a level of calm, I
could engage with this personwell.
And that, for example, like inmy dating life, there was
somebody I was interested in,but all my like spidey senses
are going off, and my brainstarted to get anxious and

(27:31):
start, and I was like, wait aminute, no, this isn't there's
nothing wrong with me.
There's something off aboutthis person that my spidey
senses are trying to tell me.

Theo (27:42):
So, like when you're not peeking is when you feel like
it's a good like right now, likeI'm feeling calm with y'all.

Rhys (27:48):
I feel like we don't really know all, you know, I
know collect, but I don't feelthose anxieties that
anxiousness.
I'm feeling calm.
And I think your nervous systemis gonna tell you like parent
synthetic nervous system, restand digest, or sympathetic
nervous system, like high alert,woolly mammoths coming.

Colette (28:06):
Get the heck out of there.

Rhys (28:08):
So even if I can't like rationally be like, hmm, is this
person good or not?
Like, what is my body tellingme first?
I think is really important.
Yeah.

Theo (28:17):
That's a really good one.

Rhys (28:19):
What's your green flag?

Theo (28:21):
Um I can laugh.
Ooh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If I can if and not like Ilaugh at everything, I laugh at
a lot of things.
Um because a lot of things arejust funny.
Things are there's there'ssomething funny in almost every
situation.
10,000 percent.
Huh?

Colette (28:40):
10,000 percent agree.

Theo (28:42):
But like uh, but if I can like like have a like not just
observe things, but like yeah,feel comfortable enough to like
enjoy you know like it, yeah.

Rhys (28:56):
I agree.
Laughing is important.

Theo (28:59):
A GAFA, if you will.

Sam (29:01):
Well Gaffaw is gaffaw means green.
That maybe that's it's like ifyou go out, Gaffaw is like, oh,
this is safe.
This is your light city.
Who are you?
Well, actually, you know, it'sfunny you say that because I I
think um my answer actuallywould come from me responding to
the question.
Uh because for for me, I'vethought about, you know, how do

(29:27):
I approach somebody differentviews or beliefs than mine is
because I I've I agree I I'veexperienced and agreed, you
know, at some level everythingyou ever everything everybody
has shared.
But I also realize too thatsome of it has to do a lot of it
has to do with me.
So it's even not it's it'sabout how I approach me in when
I approach somebody else.

(29:48):
Yeah.
And I think uh and of coursethis has a lot to do with my own
spiritual experience and youknow w and my How I've grown or
hopefully grown in that.
But um so the green flag, Iguess, my internal green flag

(30:08):
before I ever met meet somebodyis like, okay, I and of course
this might open a whole can ofworms, I I just I I am just
utterly convinced that everybodyis inherently good.

Rhys (30:21):
Yeah.

Sam (30:21):
Yeah.
And uh and and so now that maybe hard to see sometimes, but um
I I have just whether I'm eventelling myself that and it's not
true, uh I'm just uh I'massuming and I'm believing that
everybody is inherently good.
And so that's my that's myinternal green flag.

(30:42):
And then really it's up to theother person to show me that's
wrong or not.
And more often than not, Idon't I they they show me that
they are, you know.
Um but uh I think the green andsee I I I answer this question
from such a your your questionand this question just from more
of an internal standpoint,because I maybe it's because

(31:05):
I've in my life I've uh you knowexperienced a lot of pain and a
lot of you know emotionaltrauma and stuff like that.
And so I are from the moment Iwas a kid, I've always had my
guard up.
So everybody's bad, everybodyat I'm gonna fight everybody.
And I knew as I was as I gotolder and you know, friendships

(31:26):
were weird, relationships wereweird, romantic or whatever.
I was like, okay, I'm gonna doa calculus.
The only consistent variable inall of these relationships is
me.
And so something's off with me,which is a hard thing to admit
about yourself.
And and that's when the led meto like, okay, well, I'm
approaching every everyconversation, every relationship

(31:48):
as how is this person gonnaprove to me that they're against
me?
And yeah, which is like reallyno way to live life.
I mean, you can, and if it'llkeep you alive, you'll be pretty
lonely.
Yeah.
Um, but that that would be theinternal green flag for me, is
like, okay, this person's good,and even if they keep showing me
they're not good, uh, then I'mjust I'm gonna find a way to to

(32:13):
to keep keep trying to find thatin them and connect with that.
If that makes any sense.
Which is it's hard sometimesbecause, like you said, what you
what your brain tells you issomething different than what
your you know nervous systemtells you sometimes.
Because you know, you couldcome into a situation and you'd
be sitting with somebody and youdon't know them from nobody,

(32:35):
but you're pissed off aboutanother experience you have with
somebody else, and you're justdragging that into it.

Rhys (32:40):
Yeah.

Sam (32:41):
And so it's a lot of self-examination for me.

Rhys (32:45):
I think you're saying what you're saying the opposite of
what I was saying.
Oh, really?
And I I kind of likeyour 'cause I've actually uh
this is gonna sound so sad, butI have found myself lately
pretty alone, pretty sometimeslonely, although I don't mind
being alone.
But I've realized that due topast experiences in the past few
years, especially just feelinghurt has led me to a place of

(33:08):
just being like most people arekind of thinking about
themselves, and I have to becareful.

Sam (33:14):
Yeah.

Rhys (33:15):
Maybe kind of what we were all saying.
But I like maybe you've goneinto a more of a healed spot of
like, no, I'm going to assumethat there's good in everybody
and reach and connect for that.
Now, maybe be a littleprotective, but you're starting
from a place of assuming good.

Sam (33:31):
Well, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm healed.
I I think I want to be.
You're in pursuit of yes, andand I know that uh my my thing
is like, well, I know that theway I have been doing it was not
effective.
And it's almost like I'm gonnado the opposite of what I think
is effective.
What I what I have thought iseffective.
Yeah.
And sure enough, it's it's itseems to be better.

(33:55):
Um it it definitely is there'slots of times, uh, in fact, I I
would probably say my you know,my my fiance, she she's the only
one that actually gets to hearthe gnarly bits of what I
actually think.

Colette (34:11):
Are you talking about trailer park Sam?

Sam (34:13):
Oh, trailer park Sam, that is correct.
Yeah.
And uh that yeah, it's a thing.
Yeah, it's a thing.
And uh and uh and so andactually what's that?

Rhys (34:23):
I want a trailer park grease.
Yeah, I'm in the trailer parkgrease mode often right now, and
I want to be in what is theopposite trailer park Sam?

Sam (34:30):
Oh, I don't know.
Uh Sparkling Water Sand SubSubdivision, gated subdivision
Sam?
I don't know.
I think it's sparkling watersand.
Oh, sparkling water sam.
Yeah.
There we go.
I like this.
I like this.
Yeah, I don't know.

Colette (34:44):
It's just um It sounds like what you're describing is
kind of like shadow work doingyour own, you know, f figuring
out like what is inside of youthat you have been avoiding or
not wanting to deal with, thatugly whatever that ugliness is
that you've like disenfranchisedin yourself.

Sam (35:00):
Yeah.

Colette (35:01):
You gotta work on that so that you can what I've known
like so that you can deal withthat part in other people.
Yeah.
Because like that stuff thatyou don't that you're not
dealing with is probably what'spissing you off about your
engagement with another person.
Yes, yes, yes.

Sam (35:14):
And well, like that'd be the second layer of it to me, is
uh and ultimately it stillcomes back to my internal
processing, is I still think oneof the another ubiquitous thing
for humanity is everybody wantsto be secure.
Everybody, everybody,everybody.
And so, and that helps navigatethe conversation for me anyway.

(35:35):
And once again, I'll say thisfrom standing from a I'm a
straight white dude that youknow really uh doesn't
experience a lot of you knowstuff that say, you know,
minorities or women or or youknow folks in the LGBTQ
community do.
So like I'm also approachingthis from a very specific
framework, but um uh but but Iknow that w if something if

(36:00):
somebody says something thattriggers something in me, I was
like, okay, well, first of all,I I feel like I need to protect
myself, why?
And then do that real calculusin my head real quick, but then
I'm like, ah well, they probablyare just saying that because
that makes them feel secure.
In some way, that makes themfeel secure.
And and for that brief moment,I'm like, okay, we're the same
people.
We're the same people.

(36:21):
We we're definitely coming atit from different angles, but
we're the same people.
And I wish I could say I I nailit all the time, but um that's
how I try to do things.
That's how I want to do things.

Rhys (36:35):
That security piece feels like a prerequisite to me.
I think um back to the questionof like how do you handle
people who see the opposite ofyou if you don't have that
security within, and I'm stilltrying to figure out if that's
inherent and or uhcircumstantial.
Oh my lord.
Like we're both.
Yeah, we're both.
Like right now, I don't have avery secure uh job situation, I

(36:59):
don't have a very secure homesituation, I'm figuring things
out, so it makes it harder tohave the capacity to be at that
next level of engaging withpeople in a like let's debate
the direction of the country.
I'm like, I don't even fuckinghave I don't know where my next
paycheck like I have a paycheck,but like what the you know what
I mean?
Sorry, I don't know, I wantedto curse on this.

(37:20):
Oh, yeah.
Anyway, so um I don't know ifyou want to talk to that a
little bit more, like thesecurity piece is important.

Colette (37:29):
I I I 100% am with you, Reese.
I think this question impliesuh a level of security because
if to the point around liketrauma, if you're living in
poverty, um, if you are not in as in a secure, safe home

(37:51):
environment, you don't havecapacity for these higher level
kinds of and I don't mean Idon't mean that in like a you're
less than kind of way, but likeyou just don't have as much
capacity to do anything.
Um when I think about the timesof my life whenever I have been
really poor.
Uh these were not conversationsI was capable of having because

(38:14):
I was hungry or um worriedabout paying the rent or like
whatever it was, right?
Um and so I think that needs tobe kind of reckoned with in
this conversation.

Sam (38:26):
Yeah.

Colette (38:26):
That how do you approach someone with a
different perspective is likeyou've got to be in a good place
yourself, to Sam's point.
Um, but then like in a in asocioeconomic situation, you
also have to be likesocioeconomically like safe.
Um because you Reese, youbrought up like the safety in
the in the relationship, butthere's a more of a like a

(38:50):
global safety that needs to bepresent.

Sam (38:52):
Um basic food, shelter, yeah, massive hierarchy of
needs.

Rhys (38:57):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Basic needs need to be metfirst before you can even start
worrying about the needs ofothers, before you can even
start self-creating and beingcreative and doing these kind of
higher level intellectualthings that grow and develop
your soul.
Yeah.
You know, self-actualization.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Colette (39:15):
What was your guffah?

Theo (39:18):
No, um, there's been several, but like that that
reminds me that like becausethere's a scale, right?
It's uh of like how far you canpontificate versus how
efficiently you can like providefor yourself, you know.
Like, like you're saying, likeI don't have I don't have the

(39:39):
bandwidth to talk about thisshit if you know I haven't had
breakfast, lunch, or dinner.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Um and also just like theability to empathize.
I think you kind of lose likeonce you go into
self-preservation, youinherently lose the ability to
empathize.

Sam (39:58):
Yeah.

Theo (39:59):
So yeah.
That's and that I mean, butthat that goes for like any
situation.
So like if you're starved forattention.

Sam (40:07):
Oh, good point.

Theo (40:08):
You know, you kind of don't see that somebody else is
going through a similar thing,or if you're starved for
whatever, you know, you'restarved.
There's a need not met.

Sam (40:17):
Yeah.

Theo (40:18):
That's hard.

Colette (40:19):
And it makes me think, so when I I worked at the VA um
at helping veterans get housedand or they were sick in the
hospital for, you know, beingchronically ill, it would always
surprise me whenever they wouldtalk about politics.
I'm like, don't you have moreimportant shit to worry about?
Um, but it was kind of like adistraction also at the same

(40:40):
time, uh, to kind of have theseconversations is like I I can,
you know, think about thesethings because it helps me like
forget my pel myself and my paintemporarily.
Um but it always kind ofastonished me when people would
hold viewpoints that were injuxtaposition to their current
into their present circumstance.

(41:01):
Yes.
It seemed like everyone wantssecurity, right?
But like how to make sense ofpeople having views or voting in
a certain way that was likeagainst their own interests was
always something that befuddledme then and befudd me now.
Um but I did notice like duringthat time of my life, um, that

(41:23):
I was so singularly focused ongetting people housed and well
that I didn't really carewhatever came out of their
mouth.

Sam (41:30):
Yeah.

Colette (41:31):
And that helps a lot.
You know, it's like you saywhatever nonsense you want to
me.
Uh and you can even be likeflagrantly awful to me, but like
you still are living in a youknow, under a bridge.
So we're gonna work on that,you know.

Sam (41:46):
Well, I'm yeah, yeah.
Well, no, I mean I I do thinkit has to take a little bit of
awareness on your part of goinginto it.
Like I've worked a lot in theunhoused community, and it's
like, listen, yeah, we're nothaving this con we're having
nothing remotely like thisconversation.
Yeah.
And you know, you have to belike, well, what we're gonna be
talking about, first of all, I'mgonna try to, if I'm gonna help

(42:07):
them feel secure and safe, Iyou know, w I need to figure out
what that is for them, if it'sfood, if it's you know,
something warm, if it's youknow, just even to listen often
is enough to to make somebodyfeel safe enough to get to the
maybe a a next level kind ofthing.

Colette (42:23):
So it all kind of depends on like the goal of the
conversation, right?
So I'm kind of curious behindthis question, like how do you
understand how do you approachand uh understanding someone
whose views are different thanyou?
I think for me completelydepends on what the goal of the
conversation is.

Theo (42:38):
Good point.
Can I ask you guys a question?

Colette (42:40):
Yeah.

Theo (42:41):
Because like um, I'm coming from uh dad of two small
children for the past almostfour four years basically.
Um, and so my whole view hasbeen internal.
It's like, how do I keep thehouse the house?
And you all have describedsituations where you are like

(43:06):
external to an extreme whereit's like, how do I find this
stranger means to exist?
And so those conversations arewildly different.
Like the conversation, like um,for instance, the other day I
was uh my my older daughter wascoming to visit and we were
driving in our car and we're ata stoplight, and um a woman, uh,

(43:29):
uh a street person was you knowlike, hey, do you have I was
like sorry, I don't.
And she walked over and shelike looked in the car and
looked at me and just likepatted me on the arm and kept it
moving.
And like for three seconds,like, oh, that was so sweet.
And then I looked at mydaughter like, no, she did reach

(43:49):
in the car and touch me, didn'tshe?
And it was and it was just likebecause it could have been
anything, it could have been itdidn't have to be a loving
gesture, and it was like, ohright, I don't live the kind of
existence where a stranger canshould be able to reach out and
touch me in my car.
And uh, and so like what arethe conversations like?
Because I haven't had aconversation like that in a

(44:11):
number of years, where there issomebody who is, I mean, maybe
not violently opposed, butdefinitely opposed in opinion,
but like you're both fightingfor the same goal.
You know, like you're you'retrying to say they're literally
saved their life, you know, butthey they are at least saying

(44:33):
some wild shit, you know.
Like, what are thoseconversations like?
What I I mean, I'm sure youcan't say specifics, but like
what are some of the things thatyou hear that are like common,
you know, like where do thelines cross?
You know, we know where they'reopposed, you know the wild
stuff that people will say, butlike I'm sure it's gotta be at

(44:55):
least some of the time hilariouswhen like you both maybe say
the same thing at the same time,like you know what I mean?
Like, oh yeah, um, like whatare those conversations like?

Colette (45:06):
Yeah.
I think so a little bit aboutmy work.
I uh am an educator ofspiritual caregivers, and so we
all can talk theology, and Itend to not because I find it
useless.
Uh, everyone has a differentopinion, and it's like, what's
the practicality of thisconversation?
I'm not having it unless it hasa practicality to it.

(45:28):
That's a bit of my like line.
One of my boundaries aroundthis is um, well, and Sam is
knows this about me, and like Idon't have a lot of use for the
how many angels are dancing on apin kind of bullshit theology
questions that people ask.
That's an old old example, butum like that sort of stuff.
What's the nature of God?

(45:49):
Not having that conversation,don't care.
Um not that I don't care, Ijust don't care about the
conversation.

Sam (45:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, those those conversations,there's no answer.

Colette (45:58):
There's no answer.

Sam (45:59):
It's a creative exercise.

Colette (46:01):
Right.
And where for me, uh havingbeen in a place where getting
people well is the goal, havingworked in healthcare for 18
years, um and on up until threemonths ago, that it was always
about somebody's life or death,right?
And when that is the singularfocus, nothing else matters.

(46:25):
It doesn't matter what thatperson's opinion is.
Reese, you know you've youwell, you've been there and
you're there now.
You don't care what thatperson's opinion is, what they
think of you.
Um, like you are justsingularly focused on the goal
of getting them well or gettingthem housed or like getting
whatever need met.
Um and so it all of thisbecomes a whole lot easier.

(46:49):
And in my time, you know,working, I keep thinking about
the veterans again, because Iworked there for five years and
I got to know folks really well.
If a VA hospital isn't ahospital, it's more like a rec
center.
And so you get to know thesepatients.
And in the time that I I got toknow this know folks, they

(47:10):
thought they knew me because Ihad heard so much of their
lives.

Sam (47:15):
Yeah.

Colette (47:17):
And they assumed that I agreed with a lot of what they
were saying when I agreed withvery little.
And so I kind of became a bitof a chameleon or a a mirror for
people where they just like sawwhat they want what they needed
to see in order to feel safeand secure and connected to me.
Um and so yeah, it kind of waslike a bit of like a social um

(47:43):
uh shapeshifter in a lot ofways, was kind of like how I
navigated those conversations.
I don't know, it just gets easybecause it's not about the
conversation or our ourdifferent viewpoint.
It's about let's get you well,let's get you straightened out,
let's investigate the heartbreakthat caused your heart attack.

(48:04):
Yeah.
Right.
Real examples that that I'veseen.
Or um, you know, let's talkabout the fact that you had a
stroke and now you can'tfunction independently.
And what does that mean foryour life right now?
Um and in that, like havingworked in those areas, I know

(48:25):
for a fact that being really,really sick doesn't keep you
from wanting to live a fulllife.
But getting people to just toagree to that was the main
opposing belief that I wouldhave.
That, you know, a person'sbelief, like I'm never I I can't
function independently, so Imight as well just kill myself

(48:45):
or I might as well just die.
And me out here thinking, like,no, I've seen people with your
same condition live full and andand meaningful lives.
You just need to get throughthis grief and process this loss
of independence and and and uhidentity, and you can get to get

(49:06):
there.
That are those were the deepopposing beliefs that I had were
more about like what people arecapable of.

Sam (49:13):
Yeah.

Colette (49:14):
You know, um, and the healing and and wholeness that
people are capable of having.
Those kind of this kind, youknow, I think we've been talking
about views and beliefs thatare external to us, like
politics or or what that's nottotally external, but you know
what I mean.
Um whereas my work has been inhelping people, uh me believing

(49:37):
that they could be well againand then maybe not believing
they could ever be well again.

Sam (49:41):
Yeah.

Colette (49:41):
That's a harder thing to to work with, but it also um
the goal is still to save alife, right?
Um to to help somebody heal andbe whole.

Rhys (49:53):
Well, and Colette, your points are all about, which I
think you know, also you're notfar off from doing the work
we're doing, too, because it youare choosing to be a father.
Colette was also choosing toshow up at the VA and help
somebody along spiritually.
Um I think that is so required.

(50:13):
That is to me, love and action,right?
To your children might bescreaming their heads off and
driving you crazy, but at theend of the day, you are choosing
to be present with them andshow up and sacrifice some of
your own sanity for that.
Kalab was doing the same thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theo (50:31):
It's fair morning, it never comes back.
Yeah, ever.
This is my second set of kids.
Yeah, my olders are 25 and 27.
Yeah, like this is a literallya new batch.
You'd think you'd think you'dbe really good at it by now.

Sam (50:47):
No, I wouldn't.
No, you don't.
You just you just see I I I keepconvincing myself, like right
now, it's like I'm 50.
I can be I I've screwed up somuch with my kids.
It I could be so good at beinga dad now.

Theo (50:59):
You know what you'd be good at?
You'd be good at nunderstanding that you're not
good at any of it.
Yeah.
You just have to like give thesame amount of effort.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah.

Sam (51:11):
Once you get older.
Yeah.
Well things are not asimportant as you thought they
were.
Yeah, it's like when that'swhat I always like.
Your point.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Singularly.
Well, it does go back to whatyou were what you were saying,
Colette, in the saying of likeunlearning what you believe.

(51:33):
Like even understanding why youbelieve what you believe.
I think that is probably thebiggest thing.
And and once again, it's sohard when whether it's real or
perceived, that you're fightingfor your life.
Uh, because you know that couldbe real, and it could also be
perceived, you know.
And um I just forgot what I wasgonna say.

(51:55):
I do that all the time.

Rhys (51:58):
And the the sparkling water bent flat.
The sparkling- I told you.

Sam (52:02):
You get to see it firsthand.

Theo (52:03):
Well, what happens when what you believe is wrong?
See, yeah, I know, right?
Like, like how do you like howdo you take that on?
Because I think that's what alot of people are having a hard
time um not just going through,but like understanding.
Like, if you see somebody, andI guess it's like an internal
collapse, right?
Like you just lost some of yourfoundation.

(52:25):
Um people don't really know howto empathize with that because
they probably can't go throughit themselves.
Yeah, you know, but like whatlike what are you supposed to
do?
Yeah, other than get atherapist.

Sam (52:40):
I I I don't know.
But see, but that's that's whytherapy is so good because good
therapy is not my questions.

Colette (52:45):
Yeah, that's it.
It's not gonna give you manyanswers.

Sam (52:47):
No, and and you talking about yourself out loud and
sometimes hearing some clarityand like, oh, that's why that
is, or sometimes hearingyourself out loud and going, Why
the fuck do I think that?
That is ridiculous when I sayit out loud, or like you can
say, I believe this, but if youcarry it out to its logical
conclusion, it's like that isnot where I want to end up.

(53:07):
But yeah, but so few of us getthere, you know, and for
probably for real or perceivednotions of security, it's like
because it ain't it's hard to itand it is a privileged thing to
be able to question your ownself and and and be like, okay,

(53:27):
well, I mean, I I'm guessingyou've Reese, you've been
through that, Colette, you'vebeen through that.

Colette (53:32):
What massive worldviews?
Yeah, I mean, about yourself,about yourself identity change,
like no, yeah, yeah.

Rhys (53:39):
I thought I was citizen straight, that came crumbling
down.
I thought I wanted corporatelife and marriage, that came
crumbling down, you know, andthen I was just thinking, as you
were saying, like, why am Idoing this to myself?
Why am I choosing this?
Lack of security.

Sam (53:56):
Yeah.
You choosing to c alwaysquestion like right.

Rhys (54:01):
And yeah, I'm yes.
And you cut are probably Ialmost sometimes I feel like
maybe I don't have a choicebecause the the the other choice
would be to deny truth.
Yeah.
And there is just it is truethat I am not citizen straight.
It is true that I think I'mmeant for greater things than
project management, for example,even though I love it because

(54:21):
it gave me money and security.
But I'm like, do I want to livewith truth and lack of some
security for now?
Or do I want to live withnon-truth and security?

Colette (54:32):
Yeah.

Rhys (54:33):
Um and I think a lot of people can just live without
questioning truth, but I just islike it's not me.
Sometimes I wish it was me.

Sam (54:44):
Well, how uncomfortable is that?

Rhys (54:46):
Constantly uncomfortable.

Sam (54:46):
Well, no, but I mean to like think about like cognitive
dissonance, you know, it's likeoh yeah, when you I I think that
happens a lot in what I seewith folks is and I actually
when I see it happen, I try Itry to back off because like
I've like, oh cognitivedissonance, you mean?
Yeah, or like when somebodyfinally said you know they
believe something and then theystart getting to a place where

(55:08):
they're like they're starting tosee or realize or hear
themselves and say, oh, becauseno one wants to feel that.
And and um and so I I I Iresonate with what you're saying
because I don't know I I'm Iknow there was a point in my
life where I definitely didn'twant to move from my word, like

(55:29):
what I s what I think is the wayI think, and that's the right
way.
And I honestly don't know whatwhat changed that, but you
really have you really made merealize like, damn, why would I
choose to constantly questioneverything?
That's that's not a verycomfortable way to live.

Rhys (55:46):
It causes discomfort.

Sam (55:47):
Yeah, great.

Rhys (55:48):
Or like, why did I choose the career emergency medical
response which is inherently andconstantly uncomfortable?
Constantly.
Um and I like the only answerthat I can come up with is to be
with people in their moments ofhighest vulnerability and to
get to see that, you know, is abeautiful thing.

(56:11):
And it's also truth for me,yeah.
Um, to kind of be thatspiritual person in that way or
that presence.
But I'm like, but this is true,and I have that peace within
because of that, but it's alsoso constantly uncomfortable.

Colette (56:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Like you you get comfortablebeing uncomfortable after a
time, you know.
I know you're still uhrelatively new to your EMS
journey, Reese, but like again,going back to working in
healthcare for that long, um,you get comfortable being
uncomfortable.
And I'm I I'm glad I leftbecause I think I was too

(56:48):
comfortable being uncomfortable.
I remember my like firstinteresting two weeks not
working in healthcare, like Iwas anxious that I wasn't
anxious.
Yeah, you know, um, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That was like the status quo.
And um, but yeah, I thinkwhenever you make the decision

(57:09):
to kind of um work through anyand all cognitive dissonance in
yourself and like confront thetruth of your circumstance and
your situation, you're going tobe uncomfortable.
You're gonna make the peoplearound you uncomfortable.
Um you're really, yeah, signingup your whole life for a sense
of of discomfort.

(57:31):
But I don't know if comfort iswhat the human condition is for.
That's uh me being a bit oflike pessimistic about life.

Rhys (57:41):
No, I mean to I think that's a good next curious
proof.
Which one is what's that?
Uh what is the nature of life?
Is it supposed to becomfortable or uncomfortable?

Sam (57:51):
Yeah, but you know, you you really uh or was it collect it
was both of you that said that.
It was uh just that idea oflike just having the ability in
your life to be able to even dothat.
And uh because I mean I uh youknow, this is whatever, but you
know, growing up poor and andseeing my dad with a seventh
grade education, you know,didn't learn to read till he was
30, and having the views thathe had, and and just seeing

(58:16):
like, oh well, of course.
Where else would he havelanded?
You know, and and that I meanrealizing that about him
probably in my 30s or 40s waskind of like it it really helped
me start forgiving a lot ofstuff about him.
And without also not excusingit, yeah, because like you know,

(58:39):
my dad, you know, tended to saysome racist things often.
And uh and I'm not excusingthat, but I can I do acknowledge
where it's coming from.
Yep.
And if I can at leastacknowledge that, then I can at
least approach him in a way thatI can hopefully start steering
his views a little bit, or youknow, ha having him see another

(59:02):
viewpoint.
Yeah, yeah.

Rhys (59:03):
Or choosing how to engage so that is safe for you.
Yeah.
Um which is also not nothing tohave gone through what you went
through, by the way.
Oh, to qualify that.

Sam (59:15):
Yeah.
I don't know.
Like I the I'd tell you whatthis is a totally different
thing.
You know, maybe maybe I wouldlove to have this conversation
at some point.
Just and not even recorded oranything, just about you know,
when we the word privilege getsthrown out around a lot.
And uh and I and I will say,like, and this is me probably
more of a uh whinering kind ofaspect of it.

(59:38):
You gotta go too?
No, um, a whining kind ofaspect of just like I feel like
I got in my life, uh and maybeit's my experience is unique,
I've gotten the word privilegethrown out a lot at me.
You know, I'm white, I'm adude, uh, you know, I'm
straight, I'm educated, youknow, I'm all of these things.
And I'm like, Well, yeah, Ilived in a car for six months.

(59:59):
Months when I was seven, andyou know, I was from a very
abusive household.
And um, we were I I I'm firstgeneration ever educated in my
family.
That's all paid for by me.
And so I'm like, I don't findmyself very privileged.
Uh all that that to say, I canalso acknowledge that, oh, I I

(01:00:21):
got my start of getting out ofthe gutter, so to speak, because
I was a white straight dude.
And older white straight dudeswere like, you know what, he's a
fuck up.
Let me let's help him out.
Oh, he's still a fuck up.
Let's help him out.
And I I I don't say this to sayI could that could say fit into
that paradigm, but I also don'tknow if that happens with other

(01:00:42):
people, other subgroups, other,you know, I don't know if that
happens like say in the LGBTQcommunity or or with women or
you know, in the AfricanAmerican, you know, I don't know
how that works in differentcultures and in different
standpoint.
I just know how it worked inmine, if that makes any sense.

Rhys (01:00:59):
Curiosity 'cause buck at each other.

Sam (01:01:02):
Oh yeah.

Rhys (01:01:03):
Yeah.

Colette (01:01:06):
Do we want to ease back in with someone else answering
the question?
I think at this point Sam andI.

Sam (01:01:11):
Yeah, I think we have answered.
We probably have enough timefor Yeah.
One more kind of go around withit.
Who wants to do you feel likeyou you have a response either
one of you guys?

Rhys (01:01:22):
Oh, to the question itself.

Sam (01:01:24):
Yeah, that might be a collette's right.
It'd be a good way to Whichquestion?
The core question.
Well, where do we leave at?
What is the purpose of life?
The nature of existence.
The nature of existence.
Yeah.
And if you can answer that inlike say five minutes, that
would be great.

Theo (01:01:37):
That'd be really great.

Colette (01:01:42):
42.
Oh, yes, for the galaxylisteners out there.

Sam (01:01:48):
Yes, yes.
That is the answer to the lifeuniverse and everything.
Um wait, is that actually thequestion?
No, no.
Heavens no.
No.
I mean, well, that is theanswer, 42.
It's up to us to build asupercomputer to figure out.
But uh no, how do you approach,you know, uh understanding
someone who's user beliefs orlater on?

Theo (01:02:07):
That we already haven't covered, or maybe I think I did
say I did it, I do it poorly.

Sam (01:02:16):
Yeah.

Theo (01:02:17):
No, um, I I I you know, like in a have to situation, um
yeah, commonality andboundaries.
You know what what are wetalking about?
Like what is the importantthing?
Why are we here together?
Why do we have to do this?

(01:02:37):
Because it's usually a have todo it.
Um even if the have to is yourown, and then where do I draw
the line?
Like this conversation, thisrelationship doesn't go to this
area.
Um yeah, that's and that's andI have a tendency to be rigid,

(01:03:02):
and so I will I will like likeharden fast, like that is what
it is.
Like um but like yourboundaries aren't your bound
boundaries don't have boundarieshave foundations and those
foundations are fluid.
Because like if you knowsomebody's intentions are not

(01:03:29):
against you, because like mywhole thing is and I think I
think we can probably relate,like it's are you for me or are
you against me?
You know, like do you have mybest interest in heart or are
you trying to hurt me?
And so like if I know you'renot trying to hurt me, then you
have more flexibility in myboundaries.
And if I know you're absolutelytrying to hurt me, yeah, and

(01:03:52):
that that's where like the partof me that I would like to have
more grace in comes about.
Because then it's like theboundary is when the
conversation changes to a fight.

Sam (01:04:11):
I often I often discover that about four sentences too
late.

Colette (01:04:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh shit, I think we're in afight.
We've done been in a fight, andI didn't realize until now.

Sam (01:04:22):
Yeah.

Colette (01:04:23):
We back cut a lot of this fight.

Sam (01:04:25):
And I started it.

Theo (01:04:26):
Yeah.
I that's I try not to startfights.
That is like that's the onethat's like that, that's like
the core rule for me.
Don't start fights because um Ilearned early.
I'm I'm not good at startingfights.
I um because you if you'regonna start a fight, you should
probably start a fight with theintention of winning.

Colette (01:04:49):
Yeah, you're not wrong.

Theo (01:04:51):
I've learned like I'm I'm not good at verbal fights
anyway, because again, I don'tlike to have my feelings hurt.
Um, and so I'm either gonna betoo hurtful or I'm just gonna
open up myself to be hurt waymore than I am.
Interesting.
Um, yeah.
Because like my abuse style wasverbal and emotional.

(01:05:12):
You mean how you how you how Iwas abused, yeah.
You know, people have theirattachments to others have my
abuse style.
Like the secondary was thephysical, but like the verbal
and like the emotional is whatreally got me.
And so like I I avoid it.
And so um when it got to averbal confrontation, I would
cow and I had to learn how tonot do that.

(01:05:35):
Um I had to learn how to notcower in a lot of ways.
Uh ironically, um I was likesix foot tall, 12 years old, and
like I got picked on because Iwas bigger than everybody, and
that went into high school, andso it was it was funny, like so

(01:05:59):
the juxtaposition was peoplepicked on me, people like I was
the the butt of the whatever,but they couldn't beat me up,
yeah.
Right, and so that's kind ofhow I go into life.
Like, you can't really hurt me,so like whatever.
Um, but I would like to havemore fun in my interactions, and
so I chose to have differentinteractions with different

(01:06:21):
people, and if you were on theoutside of that sphere, then the
way I interacted with you isdifferent, with the
understanding that at some pointit might get into a fight and I
don't verbal fight well.
So it's like, all right, if I'mgonna have this conversation,
then I have to understand thatit might get physical, and am I

(01:06:45):
willing to do that?
And if I'm not willing to dothat, then I because I don't
like fight, like I'm a fighter.
I was a fighter since I was achild in rings with refs and
judges.
Okay.
I I love that setup.
That's a beautiful setupbecause it's more an expression
than it's more of an expressionof artistry than an expression

(01:07:07):
of anger.

Sam (01:07:08):
Yeah.

Theo (01:07:09):
I don't like expressions of anger because you always say
something or do somethingregretful, like always 100% of
the time.
Um and I don't actually want tohurt anybody.
Yeah, I just don't want to behurt either.
And so, like I come in with ahigher guard than I realize.

(01:07:31):
But like full understanding ofthe spectrum of it.
Yeah.
And the thing I want to changeis I want to come in with I
wanna be confident enough inmyself and my ability to come in
with no guard and be okay withthe outcome.

Sam (01:07:55):
How do you feel like you're you're doing with that?

Theo (01:08:02):
Better better than I would have imagined.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
That's good.
A lot of therapy.

Sam (01:08:08):
Well yeah.

Theo (01:08:11):
But like also like the boundaries that I needed to set,
I set.
Like, um the I kind of don'thave family anymore.
And that's an advantage,unfortunately.
Like the the family membersthat I was close with, they're
they've passed, but like I mademy peace because I got good at

(01:08:35):
grief early.
I just had an understanding oflike this is gonna happen to
everybody.
Um, and the people that I knewthat I was never gonna come to
the terms that I needed to cometo with, I I don't interact with
them.
But it's not out of like angeror loathing, it's just like if
I'm gonna have the kind of lifethat I want to have, then I

(01:08:56):
can't have a relationship withyou.
Yeah, I love you, and if youneed me, like absolutely need
me, I will be there.
Um but that's it.

Sam (01:09:08):
And then do you think that's it for all time, or is it
it until you get that cream?

Theo (01:09:14):
Can't tell the future you I can't tell the future.
Like, because I don't want itto be it.
That's not a choice that I'dlike to make, it's a choice I
have to make.
You know, so I would love tohave all the green flags waved,
and like that would be the thejoy.
Then my life gets fuller.
Yeah.
Um, because that's the otherthing.

(01:09:35):
Like, when somebody crosses theboundary, you've lost a person.

Colette (01:09:38):
Yeah.
You know, like you're signingyourself up for grief.
Yeah.
When you're like have to say noto having a relationship with
somebody.

Theo (01:09:47):
And a lot of times, like the the righteousness of your
choice will mask the the griefof losing that person.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
You know, like you made theright choice.
You made the right choice.
You made the right choice, andthey're gone.

Colette (01:10:08):
Yeah.
And you still gotta cry aboutit.
You still gotta grieve aboutit.

Theo (01:10:12):
I mean, if you get to the point of crying about it, some
people won't let themselves cryabout it.

Sam (01:10:16):
They'll stay angry.

Theo (01:10:17):
You know, yeah, stay angry.

Sam (01:10:19):
It's safer to be angry.

Theo (01:10:20):
I think and anger is a transitional emotion.
Oh, for sure.
Like it gets you from oneplace, it gets you from uh it
definitely gets you from hurt tohatred.
You know.

Rhys (01:10:33):
Um sometimes it gets you from yeah, yeah, hurt to a
better place of now I can handlethe hurt.
In a better case scenario,yeah.
Not like bleeding outemotionally.

Theo (01:10:45):
But it's definitely a bridge.

Sam (01:10:46):
Yeah, and it's definitely a bridge, yeah.

Rhys (01:10:48):
It's a good thing sometimes too.

Sam (01:10:49):
Well, I mean, I but I think it takes some uh I don't want
to say maturity is not the rightword, you know, some wisdom to
be able to get to that spot.
Because I think uh just from myperspective, anger has been the
pro predominant emotion in mylife, it's always been the first
emotion, but I also realizedoh, that was just the first one.

(01:11:10):
But there's several underneaththat.
This is the trans thetransitory emotion, it's useful
to get me from one point toanother, yeah.
But I didn't realize that tillway later in life.

Theo (01:11:22):
Yeah.
That's the hard part, man.
Like, if there were childrendoing this kind of emotional
work, it's not even possible.
They're not fully formedhumans, but like that's just
what it is, you know.
Like, cause everybody's gonnahurt you.

Sam (01:11:41):
Yep.

Theo (01:11:41):
Like every single person, if you keep them in your life
long enough, will hurt you.
Sometimes not being in yourlife will hurt you.
Um and it's just like it's kindof like what you were saying
before, like, is it worth it?
You know, is this a person whenyou hurt me, how will we how
will we deal with it?

Colette (01:12:01):
Yeah.

Theo (01:12:02):
When I hurt you, how will we deal with it?

Colette (01:12:05):
Yeah.

Sam (01:12:06):
But see, and that takes a a certain level of well,
security, but a certain bit of arelationship to be able to have
that kind of conversation.
Foresight.
For sure.
Yeah.
And I don't think we allapproach I think we do that with
romantic relationships a lot.

Theo (01:12:21):
I think that's kind of the have you ever just like done
that though?
Just like met somebody like Igive you that already.
What do you mean?
Like, um so yes, it takes a bitof relationship to ask those.
I've met people, and not justromantic people, but people that

(01:12:42):
I've known that like I don'thave to have this guard.
I didn't know I don't know how.
Yeah, uh you know, but it'sjust like, oh no, we're the
same.

Sam (01:12:52):
You're good.

Theo (01:12:52):
Yeah, yeah.
We're we're the same.
And like the language isdifferent, the the interactions
are different, like even themisunderstandings are different.
You know?
I got a friend, uh, when we'retogether, we're like a pack of
dogs.
Yeah.
You know, it's like you eversee dogs that get together and
it's like, oh, we're dogs, we dodog stuff.
Yeah, just go off and do dogstuff, and that's just what it

(01:13:14):
has always been that way.
You know, the firstconversation basically was like,
We're dogs, right?
And it was like it was thelike, you know.
That's good.

Rhys (01:13:24):
I I I have dog friends.
Yeah.
Y'all seem like dog friendspotentially.
We'll see.
Oh, that's good.
Maybe there's some cats andlizards.
We don't know yet.
Oh, bear.

Sam (01:13:35):
Yeah.

Rhys (01:13:37):
See, that's my guard itself talking.
Yeah.
But so for example, I work inEMS and uh one of the things I
wasn't ready for, I startedworking in only like in the past
nine months.
One of the things I wasn'tready for was every time I get
on an ambulance right now, I'mwith a different person.
Oh.
A different partner.

Colette (01:13:56):
Oh, strange.
Interesting.

Rhys (01:13:58):
And this is a relationship that you are dependent on.
When you are out in the streetsand it's you and one or two
other people, and your safety ison the line constantly, you
have to be able to quickly buildrapport with that person.

Sam (01:14:14):
How do you do that?

Rhys (01:14:16):
The chameleon thing, right?
Like, and but what my my thereason I bring this up is
because I think to quicklyengage with someone you don't
know, that's comes back tohaving that security within
knowing which battles you'regoing to fight and choosing
which ones to fight.
Sometimes they're not worth itwhen there is a disagreement.

(01:14:40):
And also just like being okaywith the discomfort that some
people are gonna like you, somepeople are not, but are you
remaining respectful?
Are you remaining professional?
Um also like I might not wantto know your political views,
for example.
Yeah, that could actuallyreally throw me for the whole
day, and like let's not evencross that line.
Yeah.
Is that are you I'm sorry, areyou using the pronouns

(01:15:03):
correctly?
Sure.
And am I respecting you also inreturn?
Yes.
Um, and then just that securitywithin.
I think I like grew up mostly apeople pleaser, and one of the
things that set me free the mostwas just like uh some quote was
like, you're not always gonnabe everybody's cup of tea.
Like there's just gonna bepeople who don't like you.
And the more you are okay, okaywith that, because you're like,

(01:15:26):
oh, I like myself, so then thepeople who like me will find me,
then um the the easier I thinkit becomes.
Um luckily I've within my EMSjourney so far had like mostly
awesome partners.
Um but I think that has beenone of the most challenging
things, especially as a bit ofan introvert extrovert, like I

(01:15:47):
um have become more introvertedthe more long I've gone in life
just due to experiences.
And um yeah, that's that's noteasy.

Sam (01:15:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, no, I was well, that'swhat I was curious about was
like because man, I just neverrealized that.
That because you I the firstthing that came to my mind was
cops.
It's like you got partners.
At least I I that's at the topof what TV says.
But um I thought that's wouldbe just as equally as important
in an EMS crew.

Rhys (01:16:14):
Yeah, and right now I'm just in a phase of training, so
I'm just on a differentambulance every day.

Sam (01:16:19):
Do they do they eventually go to that?

Rhys (01:16:22):
Eventually.
Okay.
Yeah, eventually.

Sam (01:16:23):
So eventually that is the steady state.

Rhys (01:16:25):
It should be.

Sam (01:16:25):
Okay.

Rhys (01:16:26):
But with but the amount of lack of people that they're
able to run to these roles andcapacity, it it could just
change a lot.
Who knows?

Sam (01:16:34):
So do you like have a um like a script in your head?
Not script's not the rightword, but like certain or is
there or is there just like inthe in the milieu of that of of
everybody just coming in fromnot is there some kind of agreed
upon like format that you guysquickly get to know each other?
No.
Really?

Colette (01:16:54):
Yeah.

Rhys (01:16:55):
My first thing is if I'm on a truck with somebody brand
new and they don't know who I amand they see me and they're
like, what?
Yeah.
Is hi, I immediatelyproactively go up to them.
Hi, my name's Reese, mypronouns are he they just to get
that out of the way, quick andeasy.
Um, and I'm here to likeparticipate and be part of the
team and carry my weight,basically.
So I could go in and I'll setmy own standard.

(01:17:17):
Um, but back to the safety whenyou're driving 70 miles an hour
on the I-10, then you'regetting out and you're helping
somebody, cars are rushing by,like, you have to be able to
engage with that person acrossperspective.
So I can't, I'm I'm sorry, Iwas bouncing and building off
your point, but um Oh yeah, youwere asking, like, have you ever

(01:17:37):
quickly had rapport withsomeone where you didn't feel
like you had to set boundaries?
And I would say within my work,for example, like yes.
But it does take a bit ofeffort as well.

Colette (01:17:48):
Yeah, there was Theo, you were talking and y'all are
both kind of talking about thisthat you said you determine if
somebody's gonna be in your lifebased off if if they're headed
in the same direction as you.
Did I hear that right?

Theo (01:18:01):
Or that they're going to s oh uh that they're gonna be
like the same as part of yourown goals.
Like um, basically, if we if wehave the same same ideals, you
know, like maybe not the samedirection because that's a
really hard thing to determine,but like um same principles,

(01:18:23):
same values.
Yeah, yeah, like yeah, similaranimals.
Yeah, like bears get along withdogs, you know, copy bars get
along with everything, you know,like I I believe I do b kind of
believe in like I don't knowthe word for it, but you know,
everybody has an animal thatthey resonate with.

(01:18:44):
And like the truer you are tothat animal, the easier it is to
tell compatibility.
Right.
You know, like I am a bear.
Like that is I've from birth.
I remember I was talking on thephone with my aunt, and uh, she
didn't know I could hear her.
She was like talking tosomebody like and when he was

(01:19:05):
born, he's like a little bearcub.
Shut up.

Rhys (01:19:09):
Um and what what characteristics of bear do you
relate to?
What does that mean?

Theo (01:19:14):
Um so like Worm, Fuzzy, cuddly, no, like um ferocious
lump like lumbering, like thelike the um even the even like
the the hibernation portion,like maybe not at such a uh
grand scale where it's for aseason, but like there are some
times when I have to like Idon't have a choice.

(01:19:36):
I'm going to lose consciousnessand I'm going to see you in
like a day or so.
Oh you know like there havebeen a couple of times when my
wife, like, hey, I might or I'llI'll I've I've gotten to a
point where I can make it tillthe kids are in bed, and then
it's like I'll see you later.
And I might sleep for like 10or 12.

(01:19:57):
It used to be like 16.
I could get a high 16 and um ahot sixteen.
Okay.
That's the other thing.
I I especially with a oh man,having a CPAP.
I can like completely engulfmyself in in just rubbery, like
blankets and every pillow.

(01:20:17):
Like I want to sweat when I'masleep.
Well, interesting.

Sam (01:20:22):
I want to talk about that.
This is what I'm talking about.
You learned some stuff aboutpeople in these conversations.
I feel like I'm healing.

Theo (01:20:31):
I feel like I feel like I'm regenerating.
I feel like I'm just like stuffis coming out and like stuff is
growing.

Colette (01:20:37):
Yeah.

Sam (01:20:38):
You know, I stuff is coming out and you're making room for
other stuff.

Theo (01:20:41):
Yeah, yeah.
It and it feels good.

Colette (01:20:45):
What but I I to connect, you said ideals.
Whenever I've worked inhealthcare teams and and I've
been the new one on the block,that I definitely see my peers
and colleagues assessing um howseriously I take my role, right?
And like how invested.
And I imagine that's part ofwith the EMS stuff.

(01:21:07):
But also what you're saying,Theo, is like I can I can have
pretty much any conversationwith a person um who has the
same um sense of urgency aboutit, whatever the discussion is,
right?
Uh, even if we are inopposition to each other, do we

(01:21:28):
at least care the same amount?
Like if somebody doesn't careabout a topic and they're and
they're arguing me, I'm nothaving that conversation with
them.
Um yeah, I have a friend who islike play likes playing the
devil's advocate.
And I'm like, I know you're notyou don't believe the nonsense
you're spewing, so I'm nothaving this conversation with

(01:21:49):
you.
Like you're just wanting todebate for the sake of debate.
Uh no, thank you.
But if you want to have a realskin in the game conversation,
I'm willing to have that.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Rhys (01:22:00):
I've also learned to jump, I've been wanting to share a
story super quick.
Like back in my previous lifein corporate, when I first um
decided I was going to change myname and pronouns in the
wordplace.
People had known me for like 10years as totally different name
and pronouns.
Um I did have somebody come upto me and they their child had
recently come out as gay, andreligiously they were not okay

(01:22:23):
with that.
And for better or worse, and Ikind of learned my lesson after
this, I was like, hey, mypronouns are, my name is, and
like a meeting.
Because then you were gonnafind out about it anyway.
And I was like, if y'all haveany questions, like feel free,
and that was my mistake was toopen myself up for questions.
Yeah, so he comes up to meafter he's like, Do you mind
like taking a walk?
Like, I have some questions foryou about it.

(01:22:44):
And I learned he was trying toprocess the anger he felt that
his son was coming out as gaywith me.
And he ended up saying, like,you know, oh, trans, that thing.
Well, I just I don't agree withthat.
Um and I'm mourning the factthat my child is gay.

(01:23:05):
I'm like, okay, so now I'mhurt.
And why did I do that tomyself?
Too.
But also, three, it was justlike that's that was a lesson in
learning where to just not evenopen yourself up and engage,
and there's absolutely nothingwrong with that.
Yeah.
Which is a bit back to mypoint, like when I'm on an
ambulance, like I also fucking Idon't care what your political

(01:23:26):
views are.
Like, I really I just likedon't even care.
Yeah, that and we have a good12 hours together, is what I
care about.

Colette (01:23:31):
Yeah, you take saving lives as seriously as I do.
That's all I care about.
I think I would care if theperson was experiencing like
extreme compassion fatigue.
I wouldn't necessarily want tobe in the same EM in the
ambulance.

Rhys (01:23:43):
And it's like yeah, and you expect somebody to perform
at the level of care that youcare about, but it also just
like it comes all of everythingwe're talking about.
I feel like, and you started itwith this collette, like comes
down to persist person, place,time, circumstance.
Um, do I do it?
Do I not?
Do I have the energy for thistoday?
Do I not?

(01:24:03):
Which most of the time I donot.
Uh, you know, it's just andwhere to pick your fights and
battles.
Um, but also curiosity to bringit all back together, like,
just is super important becausethat is a very non-defensive or
offensive way.
If you are going to engage, toengage.

Sam (01:24:27):
Oh, I I agree.
In fact, that that's what I tryto do when I do get triggered.
You know, someone sayssomething, uh, and I'm like, oh,
you know, like they are.
And you know, see, I'm theopposite of you, Theo.
I love to fight.

(01:24:48):
And and and uh like I loveconfrontation.
Uh and so no, but I realize ittook me a lot of work to go
like, oh, nobody else is likethat.
Like nobody else is like that.
But like when you're here in aroom.
Yeah, nobody likesconfrontation.
And so what I've tried to do iswhen I feel that I'll try to ask

(01:25:11):
a question.
Because, you know, and even ifit's just to get them talking
more, so I can just like I'll behonest, sometimes not listen,
I'll be like, calm the fuckdown, man.
Calm the fuck.
You know, it's just like yeah,yeah.
You know, just to you know giveme some space.
But um, yeah, I I really thinkI mean if we're gonna wrap it up
or if not, but like I I reallythink the curiosity, you have to

(01:25:32):
come and be curious aboutyourself.
Yeah.
Because that's what I heard yousay, is you know, really you
know, when you're just bearingall the situational stuff around
you, but it really does comedown to like what your barometer
is inside.
Because you know, like somedays, you know, you're gonna
wake up and you're gonna feelgreat about yourself and your
worldview and your existence andall of these things, and you

(01:25:54):
can be wide open about you cancome with you know with the most
you know different person andyou're probably gonna be okay.
But you know, if you don't,yeah, you know, if you wake up
on the negative side or in themedium, you know, side, yeah,
and and it's okay to be be goodwith yours be honest with
yourself and go, you know what,I'm just not me today.
You know, it's like I wascurious about myself, it's not

(01:26:14):
me today, and uh I'll I'llapproach the world accordingly
as best I can anyway.
Yeah.
Which I think is I think that'sthe the healthiest stance you
can really take in in being inthe world is being honest with
yourself about what you can dothat given day, or even that
given hour, you know, uh how ourenergy changes throughout the
day.
Yeah, yeah.

Theo (01:26:34):
Things tend to be cyclical, you know, like you
shouldn't always have thebandwidth to engage in that way.
No, you gotta process thatinformation and like learn how
to use it.

Sam (01:26:47):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you gotta go yougotta go into den and sweat it
out.
You know?
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
I mean, we all need to do thatin our own way.
Yeah.
Have a time to process andyeah, because like it's hard to
learn on the fly.

Colette (01:27:03):
Yeah.
I like make space for the otherperson's difference, is what
I'm hearing.
Like the sweating it out.
You're talking about you'remaking space.
I think what we're yeah, weneed to like energetically have
space for other people'sdifference.
If we're too guarded or our ourhackles are up, um, or if we're
gonna really activate a spacewhere we're just like always
gonna be triggered by whateveranyone says.

(01:27:24):
We're not gonna be in that inthat space.
I and I don't just to do a plugabout like Curious Crew in
person that happens monthly.
I'm always so uh astonished byhow many like new people come to
that and they're just open.
And you ask them, like, why areyou here?
And they're like, I don't know,it just seemed like an
interesting idea, and I wantedto meet new people, and I don't

(01:27:47):
really care if they are the sameas me.
Um before doing Curious Crew,it was like, yeah, I didn't know
if it would work.
I thought maybe we wouldcollect a lot of people with a
lot of similarity, justnaturally, that's what usually
happens in groups, and peoplekind of, you know, clump
together in their similarity.
And seeing people being willingto like stretch, yeah,

(01:28:09):
especially in this time and day,is just like quite astonishing.
Um, and what I personally loveabout the the in-person group in
New Orleans.

Sam (01:28:18):
Well, I mean, I've been surprised about how I mean, I
really expected for there to bemore conflict.

Colette (01:28:26):
Yeah, 10 seconds.

Sam (01:28:28):
Yeah, I really that I was gonna be like, well, I'm I'm
never gonna really get to enjoythis because I'm gonna be the
police, you know, to be like,no, we're not talking about you
had any of us.

Colette (01:28:38):
Yeah.

Sam (01:28:39):
Yeah.

Rhys (01:28:39):
How long have y'all been doing it for?

Sam (01:28:41):
A year, over a year.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, and it's been fun, it'sbeen really interesting to
watch people grow, uh, alongwith you, you know.
And of course, it I've I've Ihave seen if you want to say
anything negative, is I've seenpeople who have come and you
know, I don't know how theyperceived it, but they I think

(01:29:03):
they say, Oh, well, this is notfor me.
This is not the safe place forme.
And um and that always thatthat makes me sad, you know, in
a way, because I'm like, oh, ifif if there was any place for
you, this is it.
Uh, but um for me, like evenlistening, just trying to slowly
process this whole thing, is itreally does a lot of this does

(01:29:26):
have to come to an internalplace for you.

Colette (01:29:29):
Yeah, safety is there's like there's the we I I we talk
a lot about safety in my lineof work.
Yeah, is that I can make aspace structurally and actually
objectively safe, but I can'tmake anyone feel safe in that.

Sam (01:29:45):
That's all them.

Colette (01:29:47):
And so we instead in in my world we talk about like
brave spaces, a space where youfeel like you can be brave to
like take a risk, which is Ithink what you were talking
about, like you have to be.
Willing to be vulnerable andtake a risk to like be open to
an oppos opposing view.

Sam (01:30:04):
Yeah.

Colette (01:30:05):
Um but yeah, with with safety is it and what I've
learned in therapy is like sayeven just the word safety is
triggering.

Sam (01:30:13):
Yeah.

Colette (01:30:14):
Uh for some people, because the like notion of it is
so uh like obscure and an animpossibility in their life that
they can't possibly imaginetheir body can't even imagine
being in that space.
It's just activating andtriggering.

Sam (01:30:31):
But they've been in a safe place or an open place or uh,
you know.

Colette (01:30:35):
And they've been harmed.

Sam (01:30:36):
Yeah.

Colette (01:30:37):
Yeah.
The the place that was supposedto be safe.
So yeah, I I I think uh, youknow, it's it's information and
I hope that the people who havefelt that way are able to uh,
you know, find a place wherethey can learn to be safe again.

Sam (01:30:54):
Yeah.

Colette (01:30:54):
I think that's probably the work that we all need to
do.
It's like, how do we learn howto be safe?
Yeah in the world and withother people so that we can be
open and curious and engage withpeople who are different than
us.

Sam (01:31:12):
So we've figured that out already, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, we've already figuredthat out.
We can publish the book, make amillion dollars.
Who's gonna run for presidentthough?
Not what do you want Be OK?
I don't think anybody wants thatgig right now.
No what?
Come on.

Theo (01:31:27):
No, everybody wants somebody else in that gig right
now, but nobody wants that gigright now.

Colette (01:31:32):
No.

Theo (01:31:33):
Um I'd like to be I'd like to be a cult leader.

Colette (01:31:37):
Okay.
Yeah, I've I've thought that ifthere's any gig in this life um
that I could take up quiteeasily, it would be a cult
leader.

Sam (01:31:45):
See, I don't know.
I I I have this whole problemwith that, is like they always
end up dead.
And so I'm like, I I don'tknow.

Colette (01:31:53):
I'm dying anyways.

Sam (01:31:54):
Who well I know, but I would not like to hurry hurry up
and rush that.
There's plenty of cults thatare thriving.
Oh yeah.
Be careful yeah, talk about it.

Colette (01:32:03):
It's just the ones that are in the news that end up
with a dead cult leader.

Sam (01:32:06):
I guess that's fair.
That's fair.
We only get that.

Colette (01:32:08):
We all we only get the we only get the scandals.

Theo (01:32:12):
If you keep a low profile, if you're not trying to change
the world, just neighborhood,you can have a good cult.

Colette (01:32:19):
Yeah.
Uh Theo Theo for cult leader.

Theo (01:32:22):
Yeah, I'll take that one over president any day.

Colette (01:32:24):
What's your what's your tagline?
What's your byline?

Theo (01:32:26):
Oh, no clue.

Sam (01:32:27):
No clue.
No clue.
No clue whatsoever.
Oh, no, no, no.
It's like stay under the radar.
Yeah, stay under the radar.
Fly low, my fly low, sleepdeep.

Colette (01:32:40):
The den.
That's what you're called tocall.

Sam (01:32:44):
Oh, this is okay.
Hold on.
This is getting to be this isgetting fleshed out.
Yeah.
This is getting fleshed out.
Well, this wow, this uh I knowthat's an interesting way to end
things, but but it's also, Ithink, very appropriate.
Very appropriate.
But uh uh so this um obviouslywe could talk about this

(01:33:05):
forever, but this was uh a greatconversation, I think uh
everyone for their perspective.
And um, I know I I'm gonna bechewing on this for a while, and
I hope everybody who'slistening uh found at least one
thing, probably several thingsthat's as fascinating and
hopefully mostly connecting.
That's what I really want uhout of this is that somehow in

(01:33:26):
all this conversation we canfeel connected.
Um so if there's something uhor someone in this conversation
uh that made you curious uh outthere in the in the world, we
want uh we want to include youin this conversation and uh ways
to do that.
Uh there'll be links uh in theshow notes for that um if you um

(01:33:46):
want to reach out.

Colette (01:33:47):
And if you want to join us in person, uh we'd love to
see you and meet you at one ofour monthly gatherings.
Uh there's actually two.
There's the Meet the Crew,which is a great way just to
come, and uh you'll you'llprobably see Sam and I and uh
and Sam's fiance, Morgan, alongwith a lot of our regulars, um,
just to kind of dip your toe in.
Uh and if you want toparticipate in the full

(01:34:09):
conversation, you can find usall that information in the
notes below where you can findthe dates and details where we
meet in RSVP for that.
Finally, if you've got anyquestions or are curious about
starting your own curious crewin your area, shoot us an email.
Uh you'll find that in thenotes below as well.
And important to note, y'allare in New Orleans, right?

Sam (01:34:30):
Yeah, we're all in New Orleans.
In New Orleans, currently.
Currently.

Colette (01:34:33):
Currently, but there's a lot of conversations about
folks in other areas that arewanting to start around.

Sam (01:34:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's very encouraging.
Well, thank you, everybody, uh,for letting your curiosity get
the better of you today.
Uh, we'll be back around thetable soon uh with another
curious question.
But until then, stay curious.

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