A Deep Dive into the Human Psyche: Creativity, Parenthood and Modern Challenges

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello everyone and welcome to the Curious Ulsterman
podcast, the podcast designedto equip you with the tools and
wisdom you need to fravours anadult.
I am your host, johnny aka theCurious Ulsterman, and today I
am joined by my good friend andrepeat guest, marcus Fortin.
In today's episode, we discussthe life advice that Marcus has

(00:29):
for people coming into college.
We also discuss his collegeright for you, how history is
not written by the victor and itdoes not repeat itself, and the
skill set you require to be adecent human being in the world.
But without further delay, hereis today's episode with my good
friend, marcus.
Marcus brother, welcome back tothe show.

(00:52):
It's been too long.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
It has.
Yeah, it's been January of 21.
No way.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Surely not.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, I was looking at it yesterday evening because
I wanted to make sure I didn'trepeat myself too much.
So I was like, well, I shouldgo back and kind of check what
we had listened to.
Yeah, it was January of 2021.
My boy hadn't been born yet.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, well, both your kids hadn't been born yet.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
The second one hadn't even been thought of yet.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, you know what I wasactually thinking about this
yesterday.
I was like I'm pretty sureMarcus has been on the podcast
more than once, I'm sure of it.
I lost track of like 60episodes.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, I saw it.
You're like really crankingthrough it.
You got like 60 episodes.
That's impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that man.
It's been putting in the work.
Yeah, I have been At the sametime.
I've definitely had to adjust.
I love podcasting, I love thefact that the audience tune in
every week, the conversations Ihave and the people I get to
chat to.

(02:01):
But, man, it's a slog.
Sometimes, especially trying tobe creative, you get that
creative fatigue or, withinpodcast circles, pod fade as it
would be called.
What is it Pod fade it's called?
It's kind of like you get pastthat honeymoon period of, say,
four or five episodes and you'relike, oh wow, you've got to add

(02:23):
it, you've got to be consistent, you've got to come up with
constantly new creative content.
It's a slog, but I don't wantto sound like I'm complaining
here.
I'm very grateful foreverything I have and I wouldn't
change anything.
But, man, yeah, there's beentotally transparent with you and

(02:44):
especially the audience.
You know it's definitely beentwo or three weeks where maybe I
haven't posted something andthat's because, a taking full
responsibility, my own badplanning and B having a full
time job.
It's just like my lack ofplanning then, combined with the
full time job, just meant likeI literally don't have the time

(03:05):
to record.
And you know, that is a bit ofa disservice, I think, to some
loyal listeners who do tune inweekend after week.
But going forward, well,actually it's already been
implemented.
I'm just podcast.
I'm releasing episodes everytwo weeks because that there
allows me to podcast, stayconsistent.
But it's far more manageable.

(03:26):
Certainly in the future, if I'mvery fortunate with the hard
work and the podcasting doestake off, you know, maybe I
could go back to weekly.
But you know, trying tomaintain a decent quality,
consistency and still enjoy it,I mean it's a simple change I
had to make to move.

(03:47):
Yeah, I mean that's important.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
I had a guy come up to me the other day well, he's
actually my boss, but I guess soI'm kind of the fitness person
in the office, like I have akettlebell in my cubicle, you
know, and people pop in to askme something and I'll be like
doing burpees or something.
I'm that guy, you know, like Iget the weird, but my boss comes
up to me and he's like he'slike man, I'm getting a gym

(04:10):
membership and I'm going to goback to it.
And well, he used to playfootball in American football
and college, right.
So he's kind of the fit guy,but he's had a kid.
He's had a kid, he's married,he's let himself go, he got
comfortable.
So he's kind of like I'm goingto get back into it and he's
telling me his plans about whathe's going to do and the first
thing I asked was like, well,does that sound fun to you?

(04:31):
Like, does that sound something, sound like something
sustainable?
He's like well, no, but youknow, I just got to get in and
grind and I'm like you know,grind, yes, I respect the ground
, I love the ground, I live thegrind.
However, it's sometimes it'snot sustainable, right?
So, like I've told him, I'mlike maybe find, find something
that's fun to you, like CrossFitor like functional fitness or,

(04:54):
oh, you don't like to run, don'tdon't run, find your cardio
somewhere else, like Jiu Jitsuor something like that.
And so, with you, say, creativefatigue and like things that I
get it.
I'm, I write a lot like as a, asa historian and a student of
history.
That's one of the things that Ido the most besides read.
So sometimes I might.

(05:17):
I might be writing aboutsomething that I love.
It's one of the funnest thingsthat I could possibly be doing.
However, I get burnout, I getwriter's block.
I sit in my office at my deskand say no, I do not want to
frickin do this, you know?

(05:37):
Like what's it all for?
Why am I even doing it?
Cause sometimes, like you said,it's a slog, like I just don't
want to do it.
But at the end of the day, likehave you?
Have you read StephenPressfield's book the war of art
?
No, I haven't actually no man,you should.
You should check that one out.
He talks about resistance witha capital R and, like everything

(06:00):
we do in life, we're going tocome up on resistance and that's
the forces working against us.
And like he's real big intolike the muse and like these
kinds of like, like, uh,mystical aspects of things,
which I mean take it or leave it, whatever to each his own.
But like these forces that areacting against us, a lot of
times for me it's within myself,right, like my.

(06:20):
My procrastination, like thatcomes from a lot of times.
Fear, like I'm afraid that whatI'd churn out isn't going to be
worth a damn.
You know like, or I have noevidence to support the fact
that I'm going to get anythingless than a bee on a paper.
However, I'm afraid that I'mgoing to get less than a bee on
a paper, right, like it's one ofthose types of things, my own

(06:42):
fear, my perfection if it's notperfect, then screw it, I'm not
going to do it Like that's justan excuse, right?
So the resistance a lot oftimes is born out of fear for me
.
I mean, I don't know about you,but that's where it comes from
for me.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, For me it's.
I don't like admitting thisbecause it's a character fault,
but it's in being transparent,it it is a case, I think, of
just laziness for me sometimes,whereby I would much rather sit

(07:19):
down and either read a book, orsomething I really enjoy is
playing Xbox with my brothers,because we're all over the place
.
We no longer live at home.
I live in one part of England.
My youngest brother lives in afive hour drive away from me,
and then my other brother isback home in Northern Ireland

(07:41):
and our holidays we seldom seeeach other.
About how we communicate, howwe spend time with each other
quote unquote is video games,and that's so much more fun than
sitting down to reach out topeople, to generate emails, to
generate content, and it's it's.

(08:03):
It's interesting.
I watched a random Instagramvideo the other day and I can't
even remember who the dude was,but he was this mega successful
dude and he was talking abouthow you know there's your
feelings, and then there's yourmind, and your feelings tell you
in the morning or in thebuildup to a really difficult
task oh, you don't want to dothis, Take the easy road, Take

(08:25):
the easy way out.
And your mind is telling you.
No, do this.
So make, make a short termsacrifice now for the longer
term gain and win.
And that's thankfully where mymind is the majority of the time
.
But it's I'm so glad we had thisconversation because, see,
today, like an hour before thiscall, I don't know why, I was
just really I don't know, reallynot, I don't want to say go as

(08:49):
far as say down, but I was verytired, I was very lacking in
energy, I was very like I wasdoing podcast.
I was like what's this all for?
See that, when you said that,like that was exactly what was
running through my head, Likewhy am I doing this?
What is this all for?
Yeah, I enjoy it.
I'm not going to message megetting benefit out of it.
You know, I don't know, I'msure I have been very helpful to

(09:12):
people somewhere, but you dojust go through these weird
phases, don't you?
It's just like what is this allfor man?
Like where is the fruit?

Speaker 1 (09:22):
That's the past few years of my life, like since,
academically speaking.
Like, yeah, so finishing up mymasters, I'm about this, I'm
about to go for the PhD, right,and there are times when I'm say
so.
I'm an American historian, Istudy US history, specifically
the South Southern United States, and I'll be sitting in a class

(09:44):
about the ancient Mediterranean, the Bronze Age, bronze Age
trade, and back on mine.
I'm like I do not care aboutany of this stuff.
So there are a lot of timeswhere I just have to check the
box right In order to get thedegree.
So I'll be sitting in theseclasses thinking to myself oh
well, I got this going on athome, I got this job I got.

(10:05):
Like my fitness is falling off.
I need to somehow log 30 milesthis week.
Like how the hell am I going tobalance all this stuff out?
But at the end of the day, itdoesn't matter how we feel.
Sometimes, like there are timeswhen I literally say in my head
it doesn't matter how you feel,and then I just have to get the

(10:26):
shit done.
Like I made the commitment Isaid to myself, like I made the
commitment to myself, I'm goingto get this degree.
So what do I do Lie to myself,because you know, if we, if we
say we're going to do somethingto another person and then we
don't do it, what are we?
We're a freaking liar.
Why don't we treat ourselvesthat way?

(10:46):
I think Jordan Peterson talksabout it, you know, like treat
yourself like someone that youare taken care of or whatever.
I'm paraphrasing, obviously,but he talks about that in his
first book, it's like.
Or his second book we should bealso treating ourselves like
people that we're, that we'retalking to and interacting with
every single day.
Because I think he also talksabout how we are multiple.

(11:09):
We're multiple people allwrapped into one, because we are
also developing our futureselves.
So we're doing something nowthat's going to benefit our
future self.
So it's easy to lose sight ofthat for me.
Like, I tend to think, like,why the hell am I doing this?
But then I think, okay, well,it's so that five years from now
I can be making like a hundredgrand a year or 200 grand a year

(11:32):
, or whatever the case may be.
I need that reminder, and a lotof times I'll say, ugh, I don't
want to do this.
And then I can even put it offsometimes, but like, well,
that's a problem for futuremarkets.
You know, I don't know where Ipicked that up, but that's
become like my big thing latelybecause I get overwhelmed with
all the different things whichused to.
I get that paralysis byanalysis thing going.

(11:55):
I would say I've got way toomuch crap going on.
I'm just not going to do itbecause it's too much.
I play the victim, freak out alittle bit and then just not do
the things, not stay true tomyself and what I promised
myself.
But then now I'm at a pointwhere I can say, okay, take a
step back.
Do I need to worry about thatin this moment?
No, I have confidence in myselfthat I can handle it when the

(12:18):
time comes.
So that's a problem for futuremarkets.
Like, for example, in these gradschool classes we do a lot of
discussion.
It's a room full of historianstalking about history and giving
their own two cents about stuff.
So sometimes it gets heated.
Like a couple of weeks ago theF bomb was dropped probably like

(12:39):
six times in one conversationand then at the end of the day
we were all happy and laughingwhen we left the class.
But like it was a heated debateabout something obscure within
the Mexican revolution right,which is hilarious.
But, like in these classrooms,I have to be 100% on my game,

(13:00):
because it's part of the grade,but also because I'm building my
reputation as a historian.
It starts with the people rightaround you.
So, leading up to the class,I'll get nervous, like I bought
this Garmin watch and it tracksmy heart rate and tracks my
stress levels and all thesethings, and like I'll look every
day.
I'd analyze the data because Ijust think it's cool, and I'll

(13:23):
be like dang.
I was like super duper,stressed out the hour leading up
to that class and it's becauseI'm like oh no, what if someone
says this?
Or what if someone says that?
What if I bring up a point thatI think is really, really great
and then someone just tears itdown?
And then what I've gotten intonow is I'm like okay, well, I'm
good at the discussion and I'vegot evidence to support that,

(13:46):
because every time I'm indiscussion I do well.
So that discussion is a problemfor future markers.
I don't need to worry about it.
Right now I have class in threehours.
Right now I need to be with myboys.
Right now I need to be with mywife.
Right now I need to focus onwork because when the time comes
then I can focus on the debate,because there's no reason for

(14:07):
me to believe that I'll screw itup.
But I know I kind of got off ona rambling tangent there.
I blame the coffee, yeah man.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
No, that was really cool actually.
And before I forget, if I doyawn at any point during this
chat, it's not because you'reboring.
You never are Short tangentmyself, short tangent myself.
So I'm currently at home inNorthern Ireland and, as much as
I love my dog, it has thisweird habit that it will not eat

(14:40):
it's dinner when we put it outfor it.
So let's say I don't know six,seven o'clock, and it'll then
get me up anywhere between 1amand 2am to go and take a large
drink, go outside to do itsbusiness and come back in and
eat its dinner at two o'clock inthe morning.
And I'm like you stupid dogSounds like my son, sounds like

(15:01):
my son, but your son, thoughit's understandable.
This dog is like a lap or 12years old and it's like I don't
know what.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
He's been conditioned to know that he can get away
with it.
He knows that you're not goingto reprimand him, you're not
going to refuse to take him out.
He's like look, if you're goingto give me all this leeway, I'm
going to take advantage of it,man, because this is what I like
to do, and you know that's agood lesson.
You know to be taught Like whenit comes to personal boundaries

(15:33):
with other humans, man, if welet people take over our time,
you know, like saying no is anacquired skill, so, like that,
there's a lesson to be learnedthere, right, like the more we
say no, the more we conditionpeople to be like, oh well, I
better not come with him, cometo him with some stupid shit
that I know is some stupid shitbecause he's just going to say

(15:53):
no, you know, because that'sbecause he's got a bunch of
stuff going.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, yeah, there, it absolutely is.
Brother, there is.
I mean it doesn't help, butshe's a herbri digital, ask him
malamut.
So I think she gets quite warmin the house and once that, once
that like couple of minutes outin the cold air, very fond of
the kitchen tiles where shelikes to disappear all that heat
.
But I get it Fantastic, dog.

(16:19):
But yeah, that's why I'msomewhat tired, but it's
interesting.
You say that you know about.
Well, in fact the wholeconversation is sort of.
I think a foundation of it hasthe changes we've both been
through in the past couple ofyears.
Like I've been through some bigcreative changes and growth

(16:41):
changes and that kind of thing.
But you know you've beenthrough some big shit yourself
in the like becoming a dad twice.
You know, I definitely love tohear more about how your whole
history degrees going, because Iknow the last time we chatted
on the phone you know you weremaking big waves there.
But yeah, just out of curiosity, what's any new perspectives on

(17:03):
life since becoming a dad forthe second?

Speaker 1 (17:05):
time.
Yeah, like the first timeactually.
Well, you kind of gave me aprimer for this before we
started talking.
So, like I do have somethoughts on that, because, man,
I ran it by my wife and I waslike, man, what all do you think
is changing?
And I'm sorry I lost my trackof all there what all do you

(17:27):
think has been changed?
What have you learned from allthis?
You know, because it is, it's ahuge, drastic change.
Like I didn't think that it wasgoing to be such a big deal,
right?
So there's a lesson to belearned there Don't
underestimate change, don'tunderestimate the impact of
change, even the smallest,seemingly small changes.
So I was like, okay, I'vealready got a, I got a kid.
He's coming up when, a year old, I know what to do, I'm a pro.

(17:51):
Now this moment came along andI'm like, oh shit, you know,
like everything just went boom,flipped upside down.
The emotional challenges havebeen really hard.
Like I'm good with physical,challenging stuff, like I can do
that all day, every day.
But the mental and emotionalstuff, that's where I need to
train.
So one of the lessons I tookfrom that was the first time

(18:14):
that I started to kind of feelthat rise up in me.
I was like, oh, I really needto work on that in myself, right
.
Like I'm not as mentally grittyand resilient as I thought I
was.
So I mean, gosh, there's a lotto unpack there.
Like first thing that comes tomind is archi locus.
We don't rise to the level ofour expectations.

(18:35):
We fall to the level of ourtraining, right.
So for me it's like I thought Iwas going to get this, but man,
now I'm eating shit, so I'mhaving like.
I'm having like re re-conorderedmy own ways of thinking, and
that's been really good.
Another thing man is being a,so my wife stays at home with
the kids, I'm out doing themoney things and like doing all

(18:57):
this stuff.
So it's like I really am takingon this leadership role, like
I'm leading my house, and it'snot that I've been thrust into
it.
We've been, we've been doingthis for a while now.
But like I've really had tostep it up and change the way
that I look at myself, the waythat the narrative that I have

(19:19):
about me and who I am, and theway that that's changed a lot is
that like my wife still thinksthat I'm full of shit when I say
this.
But like I look at her and I'llsay I've said it before in this
conversation it doesn't matterhow I feel Like this needs to
get done, I can handle it.
I've got big, wide shoulders.
Well, not really, butmetaphorically, put it on me I

(19:42):
got this, you know, and that's a, that's a muscle that you got
to flex, like once you put inthe reps on these things, then
only then can you take on more.
So, gosh, everything I say isleading to another thing that
I've learned.
And that's like I can't expectto have future results that I

(20:03):
desire if I can't handle what'shappening to me right now.
So if I can't even handle mybaby screaming at me at 2am,
then how the hell am I supposedto manage a hundred freshman
university students calling me aboring professor or like, like
on their phones during class orlike you know, hitting me up at

(20:25):
all hours of the night becausethey're worried about their
papers and like, or justanything, anything at all Like.
If I can't handle this, how canI expect to handle what's going
to come later on?
So the real thing there is justlike look at what it is, find a
plan to fix it and put it inperspective.
Right, like he, my boys yes,it's difficult because they're

(20:46):
one year old and one month old,so it's like a whole lot all at
once.
But another lesson it'stemporary.
I said this the last time wetalked like everything is
temporary.
This is just a season.
So if I grind it out now andjust let it, let it push me to

(21:07):
be better, right Like I have tolook at it and say, okay, this
is a test.
That's been another big mantraI've had.
Okay, this is a test.
What are you going to do?
Go, you know like this ishappening.
You're getting four hours ofsleep on average for a week and
then you have to write a fivepage paper and then go visit

(21:29):
three high schools and talk tothem about university admissions
and all this crap.
Can you do it?
How are you gonna do it?
Go, and then I just figure itout.
Adapt, and that's another thing.
We are adaptable creatures.
Whatever we ask of our body,it'll do it if we push it.

(21:51):
You know so, like, yeah, it'dbe hard at first, but
consistency builds those musclesup, mentally and physically,
and then, through those reps, iswhen we become able to go
further, go harder, be faster,stronger, smarter all the stuff
that Jocko talks about, like putin the reps.
You know so, every little thingthat's hard.
I just do it over and over andover again until it becomes easy

(22:15):
, and I'm at the point now whereit's kind of like oh, wow, just
over the past month I'venoticed growth in certain areas,
especially mentally andemotionally.
And one more thing I've gottenreally good at keeping my mouth
shut Obviously not on here, noton here but I don't have to say
everything that I feel.

(22:35):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, yeah, that last one was pretty good.
I actually never heard anyonesay that.
That's a very good skill,actually learning to know when
it's appropriate to speak, youknow.
But it's interesting actually.
Just there was a couple ofthings you said there that I'd
be very interested in hearing.
So you're doing well and you'regrinding this, I eat, and

(23:00):
you've got wide shoulders, andthat's all very good, but have
you learned any lesson about howto avoid burnite?
Because I mean, that soundslike a lot, man.
Like I had to totally agreewith everything you said.
You know the body's adaptable,push yourself, flex those mental
grip muscles, but like, how doyou tell the difference between
you're just being lazy and notbothered or burnite, like in

(23:25):
your opinion, how did yourecognize that?

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, so it's daily actions, man.
Like every single day, I putrest into my schedule and it
looks different depending on theday and depending on the
schedule, because I know that Iam very susceptible to burnout,
right.
Like I know that if I don't goto the gym or if I don't take
the time to meditate or tojournal or to just sit and watch

(23:52):
Netflix, dude, like sometimes Ijust want to sit on the couch
and like watch a documentaryabout toaster ovens, you know,
or something like this,something obscure, just to help
me to like veg out.
And so I have to schedule thatin every single day.
Like my job.
I love my job now because Ihave a lot of freedom to do my

(24:16):
thing.
Like it's very individualized.
So like today, for example, I'mat work right now, right, but I
went up to my boss and I waslike hey, man, look, I got a
full day tomorrow of traveling.
I'm gonna be traveling all dayto two different places.
I'm gonna be working from about6 am until about 10 pm.
So I got a long ass daytomorrow.

(24:38):
So I said, hey, I got this talklined up and I've.
Also, my wife didn't sleep welllast night, so I need to go home
and make sure she's good andI'm gonna take her some food and
then like I'm worried I'm notgonna be able to go to the gym,
do you care if I take theafternoon and just do these
things?
And he was like yeah, man, dowhat you gotta do.
He said just do whatever yougotta do to not get burnout.

(24:59):
So luckily I've got supervisorsthat acknowledge burnout and
they say do what you have to doto make sure you don't get
burnout.
So yeah, one big thing, man, isI try not to get behind too
much, because I feel likegetting behind gets me all
worried about things, becausethen I'm like, oh no, oh no,

(25:20):
everything's gonna fall apartand that perpetuates burnout for
me.
So like if I get overwhelmedbecause I've allowed things to
get backed up.
So it's really just thinkingahead, being cognizant of what
burnout feels like and thencatching it before it comes.
It's in the heat of the momentwhen the shit's hitting the fan.

(25:41):
That's too late, you know.
I have to take like preemptiveaction.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, man, I really liked that and I can totally
relate to that because that's, Ithink, quite recently I got a
bit stressed out and my job wasreally intense for a while and
then, with the podcasting andthen just life in general, man,

(26:08):
and like I definitely fellbehind in a few areas and I
didn't burnout, so to speak, butit was very intense for a
couple of weeks and I was like,man, this is not sustainable.
In a weird way, I got COVID andthat, in a weird way, did put
the brakes on things.
I felt physically ill, it wasnot a lovely, it was not a nice

(26:30):
place to be at all, reallyreally unpleasant.
But everything else in likesatellite wise around my
personal life sort of stoppedand gave me that breathing space
to just focus on recovery.
And yeah, I think it's sointeresting that I know these
things internally but you sayingthem just reinforces them.

(26:51):
Like I think we're a verysimilar mindset and I think that
it's so good to talk to peopleof a similar mindset, because
it's age old saying you're aniron sharpens iron, because
there's definitely times whereit's up to you to figure it out.

(27:11):
This is your problem, to sortyour responsibility, but it's
also nice just to have a chatwith a friend and go look, man,
this is where I'm notpotentially living up to my top
form in life, or this is whereI'm exceeding and we can share
our wins and learns, so to speak.
But yeah, I really likedeverything that you said there

(27:34):
and, for anyone listening,actually, do you what do you do?
Do you have a weekly schedule?
Do you plan out your days everyday?
Do you plan out all your dayson a Sunday?
Like what do you do?
Because I think that could be avery useful tool for people to
learn.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, man, so I have four calendars, not even exactly
Four, I just counted them all.
So I have a dry erase board inmy office with calendar on it
and then I have my personalplanner that I carry around all
the time and I'm in it likeevery day, three, four times a
day.
I have the calendar attached tomy work email and then I have

(28:15):
another dry erase board in mykitchen at home and I keep oh
shoot, I guess I got five,because there's a system that my
work uses that we have to login all the different events and
travel that we do.
So then that one is like justfor, like, office use, right?
So everybody's stuff is on that.
So I mean I have to logeverything in there as well.

(28:35):
So like I have to havestructure and planning and
everything I need everything,boom, boom, boom, boom.
Like I'm not gonna dig myplanner out, but like I don't
even give myself leeway to makeany decisions.
Really, in the moment All mydecisions are pretty much made

(28:55):
for me.
The big ones, you know, theoverarching things.
Of course, spontaneous thingshappen where we have to pivot
and adjust and adapt and allthis stuff.
And you know that's all welland good, because the more I
don't have to make those bigdecisions, the more brainpower I
have to make those little onesin the moment.
And then also, like talkingabout making the little ones in

(29:19):
the moment, the best way that Ifound for me to get to that
place where I do make the bestdecisions in the moment is to be
present and not in some woo woo, mindfulness exercise type of
stuff, because people will pushthat off to the side.
I'm not discounting that.
I practice it and it's good.
John Cabot is the man.
However, I allow myself, I'veheard a few guys talk about this

(29:42):
.
One of our mutual guys that weknow talked about this a buffer
period between meetings andbetween scheduled activities.
So a rise up the event and thenthe cool down and then the rise
up to the next one.
So it only takes like fiveminutes or so, right?
So, example I'm going to workin the morning.

(30:03):
I'm already thinking about okay, this is how, who do I need to
show?
How do I need to show up inorder to interact with students
in the best way?
I need to be empathetic, I needto be kind, I need to be
patient, I need to beunderstanding of their situation
.
Right, that's empathy.
Like I need to have thesetraits, these virtues, in order

(30:27):
to show up and do the best inthat atmosphere.
So I put on my college hat.
Then when I go on my lunchbreak I go to the gym because
food I can eat sitting at mydesk.
My lunch break go to the gym Onmy walk to the gym takes about
three minutes or so.

(30:47):
I've got some crazy angry musicor I don't want angry shirts
like loud in your face, musicgoing and I'm getting into
animal mode While mypre-workout's kicking in.
I'm like, okay, I'm about to godestroy this gym like laser
focused.
I got an hour to just makemyself suffer, right?

(31:08):
And I'm getting into thismindset like I'm gonna go just
tear this gym apart and thenafter the gym, when I'm sitting
in the sauna, I do eight minutesat 200 in the sauna and I'll be
sitting there.
That's my cool downtime to getready to go back to work.
Because I can't take thatmindset into work with me or
I'll scare the debt, I'll scarethe life out of this place.

(31:30):
I'll be like nobody cares, workharder or discipline equals
freedom.
These kids will be like but Ijust wanna go to college and I'm
like, oh yeah, my bad, yeah, Ididn't switch it off.
So like.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
I have to have, and then on my way home.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
I got like a 10 minute drive or so.
I'll put on some nice chillambient music because I'm about
to have to step into dad husbandmode.
So then I'm like, okay, back tothe kindness, love, empathy,
patience.
You know, patience, like that'smy big one, for that is like

(32:06):
being patient.
You know, be mindful of yourwords.
Like I have to say this tomyself sometimes out loud,
especially if it's been a tryingday.
I'm like be mindful of what yousay, because sometimes I word
vomit and the next thing I knowthe night's ruined because I've
said something stupid to my wife.
Next thing, you know, there youhave it.
You know I'm bad for thatbecause I don't get myself

(32:29):
worked into that mindset, thatdad husband mindset, dad slash
husband.
So like I think that is a greatway for me.
It's a great way to fightburnout as well, right?
Because if I'm growing in sixdifferent places, then it's a

(32:52):
lot easier for me to break.
It's a lot easier for me tobreak it up, right, and it's for
me to just look at it all inone big thing and get
overwhelmed If I break it upinto these different sections.
Okay, I'm working on this now.
Take that out.
Working on this now it's a lotless.
Overwhelming is one word, butI've always heard people say how

(33:12):
do you eat an elephant?
One body at a time, oh right.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
I really like that.
That could actually be theepisode title.
Ha ha ha.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
I'm up there a little bit.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
I did.
Yeah, the joys of modernpodcasting.
I'm telling you.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
But another thing I say to guys is like, yeah, sure
you eat an elephant one bite ata time, but what do you do if
you bite off more than you canchew?
And I heard one guy say to meone day oh you spit it, the fuck
out.
And I said no, I was likethat's one way to do it.
Sure you can do that if youwant, but you just keep chewing,
right.
So I like one bite at a time,but then, if it's too much, just

(34:04):
keep on chewing, man, becauseyou're going to.
It's going to all work itselfout in time.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, 100%, and I really like what you said there,
especially, the well the better.
I really resonated with therewas you know, if you're growing
in six different directions atonce, which is you know what I'm
trying to do, I'm trying togrow on multiple levels and
become the best man I can be andit's, it's interesting the

(34:33):
different hats, differentsituations.
I've never actually seen itfrom that perspective and I
might.
I'm actually going to maybehave to try and do that now
because I'm very guilty, I think, of bringing work home with me
and it just sort of, especiallyif it's yeah, if it's a bad day,
man, you're like you end upbringing it to spaces it
shouldn't be brought into.
Or if something's going on athome, you know, you bring it

(34:55):
into your work and, in your work, suffer.
So, man, that's solid advice.
I really liked that and whatoccurred to me while you were
speaking was that you're in areally unique place and that you
know you already have anamazing life story from the
first time you were on thepodcast, which audience, please

(35:16):
do check out, but everythingthat's led you to where you are
now, you are you know I hope I'mputting this correctly an older
college student.
I would say you're beyond thatnow.
You're now transitioning intothat you know, professor kind of
stage, I would say.
But for a lot of peoplelistening here, you know

(35:38):
potentially a little bit worriedabout going to college, don't
know what to expect.
You know what?
What's your perspective oncollege and university as a
older and wiser man thanpotentially you know?
I think you call them freshmenwhen they come straight into
college.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, first time university students, yeah.
When they're fresh out of highschool fresh, you know, 18 years
old coming in the world's bigand scary and just.
I talked to every single day.
I talked to kids who don't havea clue what they want to do and
the first thing I say to themis good, you're 18 years old.

(36:17):
You shouldn't know what you wantto do, you know.
If you do know what you want todo, I would question that
because you may be potentiallyset yourself up for failure.
Like I got kids coming in whothey've been an athlete since
they were little kids butthey're at a place now where
they're about to enter a higherlevel of athletics but they

(36:38):
still think like I'm going to goto like the NBA, or I'm going
to go to the NFL or I'm going tobe on the PGA tour, and I'm
like I never tell them this.
You know, I try to work withthem and be like okay, well, if
that doesn't pan out, what?
What are you going to fall backon?
You know?

Speaker 2 (36:57):
because we have to have contingencies.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
And that would be a piece of advice I would give to
new people coming in, no matterwhat they're wanting to get into
.
Like well, that's good for yourfirst plan and I 100% pursue it
.
But what if that doesn't workout?
Contingencies are good, butthen also college and university
.
Like it's not for everybodyRight, like so many kids right
now think that it's somethingthey have to do.

(37:23):
Like I talk to kids every daythat say, oh well, I don't
really want to go, but myparents are making me.
Like, well, don't go.
You know, if you don't want todo it, don't do it, because it's
going to put you.
It could potentially put you indebt.
It could potentially not.
Like, for me, I have zero debtbut because I was in the
military and they're reallytaking care of me, but like, if

(37:46):
you don't want to do it, don'tdo it.
There are so many other tracksand for some people it's better
to go out and work for a coupleof years.
Then maybe reassess, say, ohyou know, maybe I do want to go
to get some higher education, ormaybe I am interested in this
and I found this job that reallycalls to me, but I need an

(38:07):
advanced degree in order to getthat job.
So maybe I'll go do that.
What would be a good advanceddegree to get to get that job?
Because I feel like it could bemy dream job.
So, like for me, I would not be.
I would not still be a studentright now if I didn't want to be
a university professor.
Yeah, because I can.
If all I wanted to do is writebooks about things in history, I

(38:29):
could do that right now withoutany more school.
I could do it.
I know I could.
I have the skill set.
But that's not where I want tostop.
So I have to keep going,whether I like it or not,
because at the end of the road,at the end of the schooling,
that's where my dream job lies.
So right now I just got to suckit up and get the work done,

(38:51):
you know.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
And also one more thing on the financial piece
like this is more practicaladvice.
Like there are always ways toget more money than you think
you can get.
So tap into the resources ateach university, their financial
aid offices, scholarshipoffices and say, hey, I'm from

(39:16):
this place, this is my familybackground, this is my
background.
What can I do to get more moneyto pay for school?
I guarantee you that people inthose offices will help you.
That's what I do, Like I talkto kids and I'm like hey, so you
are, you have a diversebackground.
So how can we use that?

(39:38):
And what scholarships could youpotentially qualify for?
Oh well, here's this random,obscure scholarship for $1,000
for a semester.
All because you went to BoyScouts of America for like a
year when you were a kid.
Let's sign you up.
Let's fill out this essay andthis application and get you in
there for it.
Like, just make sure youexhaust all resources if you're

(39:58):
having issues finding the moneyto pay for it.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, that's really good advice.
I mean I don't know if thatkind of thing exists in the UK
Well, I've never been touniversity so I wouldn't know
but it's definitely worthchecking out and especially in
America, where, you know,degrees and scholarships
whatever you call them are a lotpricier.
Everything just costs more inAmerica from what I can see.

(40:23):
But absolutely solid advice andthe do you know what I'm just
thinking as well.
See, for people who, like, areseriously considering doing a
degree in history, like you,what advice do you have for them
?
Like, who suits?
I don't know I'm going tohopefully ask this question well

(40:47):
, but like, is there a type ofperson who suits a history
degree?
Is, what kind of jobs can youget with history?
You know, what kind of advicewould you have for people who
are seriously considering goingdown that route?

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah.
So that's interesting, man.
I had a professor tell me awhile back, like he just looked
me dead in the eye and he said,man, it's not for everybody.
And that kind of little fire inmy ass because I thought he was
talking to me, you know.
He's like, hey, you're notgoing to make it, it's not for
everybody.
And I was like, well, I'll showyou, you know.
But I don't think he meant itthat way.
He and I are pretty goodfriends now, but that's how I

(41:24):
took it and it fueled me for aminute, which we can get into
fuel in another part of theconversation, but so when it
comes to studying history,pragmatic people, people who
question things.
That's always good.
Curious, you know.
It's good to be curious.
Perhaps a curious Ulstermancould say history and hey so

(41:49):
that's another thing.
Curiosity is good, man, becauseyou never know where trails may
lead, so there's aninvestigative part to it as well
.
But then also one of myprofessors last semester he gave
me, so I sent out.
I sent out an email to everyhistory professor in our history

(42:09):
department here and just askingwhat their philosophy was
regarding the discipline ofhistory, what their life
philosophy is and how that leadsinto their professional and
their scholarly life.
Because all the professors hereare still doing their own
research and writing their ownbooks and doing all their things
.
And then maybe if they had someadvice that they wish somebody

(42:33):
would have given them when theywere up and coming in their
school and trying to become ahistory professor, what would it
say?
And so I sent this out to allthese professors because I was
trying to put down on paper myown philosophy for myself, like
how do I want to show up as ahistorian?
Like how much of my personalstuff should I let into my

(42:55):
writing?
And a professor said to me youknow, there's a word in German
that I think all historystudents of history, the
discipline itself, need to know,and it's sits, flesh, and what
that translates to literally isbut meet.
So it's the ability.

(43:17):
It's the ability to sit forlong periods of time until the
job is done.
So we call it and a little bitmore you know proper phrasing
academic endurance.
So I have to be able to sit andread for hours at a time, to sit

(43:40):
and write for hours at a time.
The hardest part for me so farhas been looking at old
documents that are handwritten.
Like I have to look atsomebody's handwriting and then
just sit with it, because in thefirst couple hours I'm still
figuring out how to read thisperson's handwriting.
I'm still figuring out theirpersonality, their pen strokes.

(44:01):
There are some flourishes thatthey do on a consistent basis.
Like after a couple hours I'mjust getting warmed up.
Same with writing.
With writing, the first couplehours I'm probably going to end
up editing that stuff out orthrowing that stuff away because
I'm just getting the juicesfalling.
I'm just getting warmed up, butthen the next three hours after
that, that's where I'm gettingreal work done.

(44:23):
So that ability to just sit andfocus for a long period of time
, the ability to do that onsomething that I'm not entirely
interested in, that's a wholeother level.
So, like I was mentioningbefore, ancient Mediterranean
Bronze Age trade routes?
Don't care.

(44:44):
However, I wrote a 13-pagepaper on this stuff.
Yeah, so it's doable, but yougot to have that ability to
focus, and that can becultivated.
I don't think a person has tohave that naturally, because who
the hell has that naturally?

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
But, just like anything, it can be cultivated
and it transfers over intoreal-world environments.
Go into a boardroom meeting andyou see a guy sitting there
fidgeting in like, oh, I can'twait to get out of here so I can
go, like, play some golf orsomething Like this is stupid.
I hate this.
That guy's not going to make it.

(45:27):
But you get the person who's inthere, just like in their mind
they're thinking this ishorseshit.
I hate this.
This is worthless.
This is a waste of my time.
I despise it.
However, on the front they'relike, and then they actually
give input when it's asked for,like the ability to sit and till

(45:48):
the job's done, like that's.
I think that's the best pieceI've ever gotten from a
professor about what to do.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
That is how to be as a really, as a really
interesting philosophy, actually, and it's, you know, at its
core, you know sticking with ituntil the job is done until the
job is done man Until the job isdone.
That's I could almost be a lifequote couldn't it.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Well, that word has roots in the labor movement
right Like of like the 20s and30s.
So these people like if in afactory setting where the work
is monotonous and it's laborious, like you're in there just
going hard doing the same thingover and over and over for like
eight hours, 10 hours, like yougained a lot of respect from

(46:36):
being that person who could justget in there and do the work
until it was done.
So I mean like yeah, he's gotgood sits flesh, like that's a
good compliment.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
He's got some good company.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
That's a big compliment.
So if I had a professor tell methat now, I'd be like thanks,
yeah.
So what are you good about that?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (47:01):
When I started this conversation I did not
anticipate well on the avenuesbeing sit flesh and I.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
whenever does man that's never does?

Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's class.
So what, as a bit of a studentof history then, what do you
think is the most importantlessons?
We're all missing out on that.
Like history so vast that youknow there's lessons.
Alexander the great can teachus those lessons World War two

(47:33):
can teach us, but like just fromyour own perspective.
Do you think there's any?
Do you think there's anythinghistory's taught you that you
can impart with everybody?

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah, and honestly I think it's something that's
missing a lot in Westerncultures right now, today and
now.
I'll preface this by saying, asa historian, I try to it's
frowned upon in the disciplineto really like kind of project
into the future things thathappen in history, like

(48:04):
causality and things of thatnature, and then also like the
whole, like from this we canlearn this, because context is
important.
However, there are a fewabstract things that I could
speak to on that and that themain one that comes to mind is
that nothing is ever what itseems like.
And that speaks to nuance.

(48:27):
Right, there's a loss of nuancein the world today.
That is a huge issue.
It's setting us up for big timefailure and access to
information has never beengreater.
So at now, like the time periodnow, compared to, say, the
1940s or even the 1970s, peoplecan do their own research.

(48:50):
Now, the reason why they're notdoing it is beyond me.
I don't know.
I can't answer that question,but I think on a large scale,
there are quite a few people whodo their own research on things
and formulate their ownopinions, but we still tend to
take things that face value.
But, yeah, nothing is ever whatit seems I'll give them a pass
back in the 20s and 30s becausethey didn't have the resources

(49:14):
to research and to reallyquestion things and dive deeper.
But we don't have any excusenow.
Like, if something comes upthat like, say the government
says something, or say myprofessor says something, like
say, my professor is a deep down, deeply rooted Marxist and I
have no idea, and he sayssomething that's extremely neo

(49:38):
Marxist, but I don't really knowanything about it.
So I just take it at face valueand I'm like, oh well, that's
the truth of the world.
I'm going to take that with merather than say, hmm, I'm going
to look into that, because Idon't know where that philosophy
comes from, you know.
So that's just one example ofmany.
Like we need to dive a littledeeper, we need to question

(49:58):
things, we need to understandthat everybody uses different
sources and then also, on top ofthat, even if we use the same
sources, everybody has adifferent interpretation.
So and I mean that's that's astoryography right there Like,
like, if you look at one topicand it's got maybe like seven

(50:19):
big time historians focusing onthis one topic and between them
they've put out maybe 10 booksor so, they're all basically
using the same source space.
So they've all got the samedocuments, the same firsthand
accounts, the same culturalitems like literature, poetry,
film, media of different sorts.
They're all using those samesources.

(50:40):
Paintings they're justinterpreting them differently
because they're each a differentstyle.
Right?
So that's life, so we have.
We can't take things at facevalue.
And then there's another thingtoo.
So I was thinking of a bookearlier.
They called Ordinary Men byChristopher Browning.
Have you ever heard of thatbook?

Speaker 2 (51:00):
No, I haven't.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
No, it's about a group of police officers in Nazi
Germany right before theHolocaust took place, and these
guys were just from regular back.
They were reserve policebattalion, they weren't even
full on soldiers, right.
But over time, throughdifferent means I highly suggest

(51:26):
reading the book.
It's so good but they came tocommit atrocities, escorting
Jews to the, to theconcentration camps, to their
death, right To the death ofJews right in the street.
You know, like some of theseguys were like just like you and
me, but through these differentmeans they were manipulated.

(51:48):
Not even some of them weren'teven manipulated, it was just
straight up Like it justhappened over time in a slow and
steady process.
So anyone is capable, given theright circumstances, of
committing atrocities, for onething, but also just doing and
saying and thinking things thatpreviously we would never
imagine ourselves doing orsaying or thinking Right Like.

(52:11):
So I never say never, andthat's one thing I've learned
from study in history is, likeI've seen.
Okay.
So a little more context.
My main area of focus from mepersonally is collective
violence.
Like why do groups of peoplehurt and attack and kill and all
these things?
They're groups of people Likewhat.

(52:34):
Like what throughout historycauses this to happen.
So my thesis right now is onlynching in the American South
in like the 1890s or so is whereI'm focused right now and I'm
really diving deep about whattype of circumstantial things
had to happen within specificregions that would push these

(52:57):
people to enact these types ofatrocities on another group of
people just because of the colorof their skin.
You know, like, what has tohappen around people and within
their mindset.
So that's causing me to diveinto political things, economic
things, cultural things like thedynamic of the family, the
roles of women, the roles ofreligion and ritual, and you

(53:20):
know all these different things.
So nothing is what it seems andnever say never, because we've
seen throughout history it couldhappen to anybody Like this
crazy stuff and anybody coulddive into these things given
their own circumstances.
So context matters.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, that's so important as well, but then I
suppose the real question is howdo you get people to stop
Excuse me, how do you get peopleto stop being purely concerned
with tech talk and Instagram,and they'll see something on the
news that really gets themriled up and, instead of
tweeting about it going,actually, maybe I should pause

(53:57):
just for a couple of minutes.
Who posted that?
Who are they being funded by?
What is the agenda?
What is the context?
That's so important and Ireally it really gives me.
I was very interested, actually,when you just said that your
collective, your study iscollective violence, that you

(54:18):
know, it seems to be as long ashuman beings have stood upright
and climbed down from the trees,we have ward, whether that's
over resources or you knowsomebody, ego got hurt.
You know, it's such, it's sointeresting and I'd actually be
almost tempted to dedicate anentire episode to potentially

(54:41):
that kind of topic, like whatare?
Our fundamental core isinforming our decision to enact
violence on others, because, youknow, when you're a teenager
and you're in the schoolplayground and the hormones are
flying around, somebody saidthis and somebody said that, and
you know there's a bit of 50cups on the go.

(55:02):
However, when you've gotgovernments with nuclear weapons
, you know going toe to toe,what led to them coming to what,
what systematic failures led tothis point in time that we're
now in a very precarioussituation.
And I suppose we're seeing thisacted out in real life now.
It's like something out of aTom Clancy novel with the
situation in Ukraine.

(55:23):
So it's so.
Yeah, I've never actually lookedat it or even heard it from
that perspective, but there wasa quote I seen and I want you
just to tell me from youreducated opinion if it's
absolute bull, but it was just alittle snippet I seen on social
media and it said if you thinkfake news is bad, wait till you

(55:48):
read about history, and Ithought that's an interesting,
that's a very interesting take.
I don't know if there's anysemblance of truth to it,
because you always hear thecliche quote history is written
by the victor.
But you know, I don't even knowif that's really true or not.
But what was your perspectiveon that quote?
It used to be yeah, yeah, Ithink once many people learned

(56:13):
to read and write and think forthemselves, that quote probably
became redundant.
But what's your perspective onthat quote then?

Speaker 1 (56:22):
I'll hit on the fake news.
If you think fake news is bad,quote first.
So fake news is bad now becauseit's so quickly disseminated,
right yeah.
So that to me is what makes itworse now than disinformation

(56:43):
has ever been in the history ofWestern society and the history
of the world.
This is the worst it's everbeen because of how quickly it
can move and poison.
But then also, if you're readinghistory books, just because a
book is about a historical topicand it's written by someone who
is a historian, claims to be ahistorian, whether they're like

(57:06):
coming from Oxford or not, it'sstill interpretation, so it's
still based on primary sources.
So I would always suggest, ifyou're looking into something in
history, don't just read onebook.
You're only getting oneperson's viewpoint.
Look at the primary.
Look at every history bookwritten.

(57:27):
We use a specific manual ofstyle.
You're looking the back of thebook, the bibliography, the
footnotes.
That's what's important inthese books, because then you
could say, oh well, where didthey come up with this
interpretation?
Oh, it's because they looked atthis document from this time
that was written by this personand then this is how they
interpreted it.
So for me I'm writing aboutlynching I've read at least 11

(57:53):
books written by differenthistorians about lynching, and
they each take a different routeto get to a specific thesis, to
prove a specific thesis, andthey all tend to use a lot of
the same sources.
So what did I do?
I looked.
Oh, what newspapers are theylooking at?
What sermons are they lookingat?

(58:15):
Like, I got one that's allabout how ritual and religion
was like the main driver of theway lynchings were carried out,
and there's a lot to it, youknow.
So look at the sources, alwaysLook at the sources.
And then what was the secondquote?

Speaker 2 (58:34):
History is written by the victor.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Oh, yeah, yeah, so it used to be that way.
Yeah, I mean, if you study thehistory of history, the
discipline, there was a timewhen history was only written by
big, rich old white guys.
That was it and that lasted fora long time, and I would even
argue that some of the residueof that is still going on.

(58:59):
So it's uncommon that you'llcome across that, but some of
the older historians that arestill kicking, still putting out
books, they still have someresidue of that because that's
how they were taught.
So then you start looking atgreat man history, which is like
specific individuals made allthis history happen.

(59:20):
Like Churchill was the reasonthat World War II was one, or
you know, like stuff like that.
Like it's all based on greatfigures and that hell, that type
of history holds propagandisticvalue, right, like it helps to
bring people together, unitedunder one person.
So it does have like statebuilding powers, because then
you also got to look at therewere times when certain state

(59:44):
powers would hire historians whowere 100% on their side to
write a history book that wouldbe taught in all of their
schools in that area.
Mexico during the Mexicanrevolutions a great example,
right, they hire to, they have.
Each regime would hire a pethistorian is what some scholars
have termed it and thathistorian would just write a

(01:00:06):
really nice, beautiful historybook saying the government's the
greatest, we're leadingeveryone to equality, this is
how we're doing it.
So that became the nationalhistory right.
Nowadays, though, people arelooking back on that and they're
saying, oh well, this is crap.
None of this ever came tofruition.
So that's when you get thismovement, now called new

(01:00:28):
cultural history, and it's beenaround for a while.
It's not that new, but it's newcultural history and it's
rather than a top down approachthe elites down to the subaltern
, like the populace it's more ofa bottom up approach now.
So, like we have a lot morehistory books coming out that
are, through the eyes of thelower level actors we'll say so

(01:00:52):
the House of Lives or the labormovement.
Like there are a lot ofhistorians who focus on labor
history, right, so, and a lot ofthat, it has to be based in the
lower level.
Now you can do labor historyfrom a top down standpoint, but
it's more interesting to readand it's more connectable.
Now I don't even know if that'sa word it's you're able to like

(01:01:15):
connect with it If it's from alower level, like the workers.
So it used to be written by thevictors, not so much anymore,
especially with the internet.
Internet changed everythingwith history, so we're able to.
You got blog posts coming outnow that are being cited in

(01:01:37):
historical monographs.
So seriously, oh yeah, man, Icite podcast interviews,
sometimes as long as the history, as long as the historian they
can listen to is a creditedhistorian, and I know that they
know what's going on Like, yeah,I'll cite a podcast interview,

(01:01:58):
but I'll blatantly say that inmy writing Such and such
historian said bloody, bloody,bloody when they did an
interview in such and suchpodcast, and then I'll make a
footnote and then I'll say thepodcast can be found at this
place.
There are new citing methods forthese types of media, because

(01:02:18):
if we leave that out, we'remissing a huge piece of the
puzzle, especially with theselong form talks that are
happening now.
This is the new way that peopleare going to get their
information is throughpodcasting.
Nobody reads these big, thickbooks anymore.
We don't have to rely onnewspaper to get our news.
So podcasts are the way.

(01:02:39):
You're asking how we get peopleto stop scrolling through
TikTok and ask them harderquestions.
I don't know how to do it, or Idon't know if anybody does
really Honestly, I think it'sgoing to take care of itself.
I think people are going tofinally stop taking in
everything they're being fed,because they're going to get

(01:03:00):
tired of not seeing the results,just like happened in the
Mexican Revolution.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
I like how you tied that all together.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
It doesn't repeat itself, but it tends to be
cyclical.
It echoes.
There are echoes that's not mesaying that, I'm butchering that
from another quote but thereare echoes like residue.
There are different types ofthings that are kind of the same
.
Things tend to be cyclical.

(01:03:29):
What's that quote?
No-transcript.
Hard times breed hard men.
Hard men make soft times makesoft men.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's something like that in the right
.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
That happens that that's history in a nutshell
From my perspective.
Now I tend to not use too manybroad stroke type things when
I'm talking about his historybecause, like I said before,
context matters.
But, if we really zoom in outand try to take some big lessons
from, just like, the broadstrokes.
Yeah, I mean, I Don't.

(01:04:03):
I wouldn't be surprised ifthere's not a revolution.
I'm not gonna go that far, butI wouldn't be surprised if, like
the social media platformsStart to take a whole lot more
flack from the users in thecoming 20 years.
Especially, have you seen thesocial dilemma?
No, I haven't no, oh man, youneed to watch it.

(01:04:27):
It made me stop using Socialmedia for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
like I still haven't really Gotten back after it, I'm
gonna have to get it again forbusiness stuff but, yeah, to be
to be fair with social media, Iprobably would have been off at
a long time ago.
The only reason I'm really onit is Because of, well, this
like to, you know, market thepodcast.
You know something I learnedearly on let's go where you're

(01:04:54):
on a great.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
Yeah, you know, like, like a hammer.
You can use it to build a houseor you can use it to bash
somebody's head.
Yeah, any, any tool, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
It's a very visceral analogy, but that is so true.
So true, isn't it?
Because you know, with Socialmedia, you know you can create
really wholesome groups.
You know people who are allconnected by this one thing and
help build each other up, or youcan become a Twitter mob.
You know, it's her rend.
It's.
It's, it's so interesting likewe're going into another

(01:05:29):
potential tangent here of howHuman behavior we're capable of,
the, of being these incrediblyamazing creatures that do such
amazing acts of kindness, andwe're also capable of Just
resorting to our lizard andchimp brain and causing extreme
violence or hate towards otherpeople.

(01:05:50):
It's, it's, it's so interestingthat you know something you I
was thinking about while youwere talking about the.
The second quote you knowhistory is written by the
victors.
You know a conversation I hadwith my friend, nathan, and my
co-host Was you know, he's very,very big into history.

(01:06:10):
He's not historian, but he's abig love of Roman history and
you know he talked about one ofour episodes, hi in Celtic
culture During the Romanconquest of Europe, that you
know there was a hero culture.
It was.
You were banded around one herowho would take the fight to the

(01:06:31):
Romans, and you know the.
You know it was very one manband, whereas the reason the
Romans were successful wasbecause they were had a very
Fight for the man.
Your left culture, you know,especially within.
You know I'm gonna butcher thiswas it to a studio?
The turtle formation they usedto do when they were in combat?
Tistudo?
That was a Tistudo.
I hear lots of Roman reenactorsgoing, no, but it's interesting

(01:06:58):
.
I think that we see this, thisdichotomy, played out on social
media and potentially in history, which is where you could
potentially agree or refute that.
I don't know.
But you get these individualvirtue signals, trying to be
heroes for a cause and trying tocause great harm to people, and

(01:07:18):
then, on the flip side of thatcoin, you have the Twitter mob
who believe, you know, I'm surethe Romans believed what they
were doing was correct,trampling through random Celtic
tribes in Europe, and, the sameway, a Twitter mob going after
someone they've never metBecause they said something out
of context or did something thatdoesn't align with the

(01:07:39):
political Dogma that they'vebeen fed and you know they'll
ruin their career, potentially,dox them, you know, put their
address site on the internet foranybody to go and, you know, do
harm to them or their family.
It's, it's insane how we, we,we seem to live in this weird
again dichotomy of Civilizedsociety that at a moment's

(01:08:02):
notice can just turn into Basicchimp warfare.
It's, it's so strange, but likewhat are your thoughts on it?

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Yeah, I think it comes down to if you're looking
at groups from 500 years ago orso, compared to groups now, the
tools that they're disposableare different, but then also the
tools that they're disposed foradvancing their ideology and

(01:08:32):
their agenda is drasticallydifferent, but then also
motivations for doing so aredrastically different.
See, I would argue that Manytimes I'm not gonna say every
time, but many times in historyMotivations for an acting
violence were act.
I feel like we're pretty deeplyrooted in Survival of an idea

(01:09:00):
or of a culture, like if wedon't, if we don't act this way
and do these things, then we'regonna die out somehow.
So there's like an existentialfear involved there.
But now this is gonna soundmaybe a little harsh, but now
it's dopamine driven, like it'syeah, everybody is so like, okay

(01:09:23):
, if I get on social media and Iattack this person who
disagrees with me, then they'reimmediately gonna have a hundred
people liking what they'redoing and they're gonna see all
those likes and they're gonna belike oh, I find I've been
accepted.
You know so.
And even though it's, it's notreal.

(01:09:44):
You know like, at the end ofthe day, these people aren't
coming up to you and patting youon the back and saying man,
you're doing so great, I want togive you money, or I want to
take you out to dinner, or Iwant to hang out with you.
You know, when there's themundane, like, I just want to
hang out and shoot the breezebecause you seem like a really
cool person, which that's whatwe need more of, is that type of

(01:10:06):
interaction.
But what we have is just, it'sso easy to go, I like that.
And then that we don'tunderstand how that one little
click affects an individual who,say, has zero human interaction
During every single day oftheir life.
They're sitting there justLonging for a human to just say,

(01:10:29):
to just acknowledge them, youknow.
So it's dangerous.
It's dangerous the, the, themotivation and the payoff, the
reward system that's happeninghere, and it's unprecedented.
This, the way things aren't.
I mean, this is all throughouthistory.
If you look at a point in time,things were never the same as
they were before that point intime, right, but now Our society

(01:10:53):
, our societal technologies andour mechanisms for Moving
information and for taking ininformation have evolved so much
faster than our brains haveevolved.
So it's like it's like havinggodlike power without the
godlike understanding of how towield that power.
Do you know what I mean?

(01:11:14):
Oh, steak, yeah it's like wehave all this power, but we
don't know how to frickin use it, and so we're going through
some growing pains right now asa as a culture, as a human
culture.
How do we use this crap?
Oh well, we're using it thisway.
There's still not a consensusof the way to use the technology
, so we're hashing it out right.

(01:11:35):
It's like I still feel like,even though Social media
platforms have been around forwhat?
Almost 20 years, 20 somethingyears now but I still feel like
we're beta testing this stuffbecause humans are slow to like
evolve, you know.
I mean, millions of years hastaken us to get here so.

(01:11:56):
We just haven't quite gotten towhere we need to be in order to
wield these things responsibly.
And if more people, if morepeople could just be like, you
know, take it with a grain ofsalt, because we're still beta
testing this stuff and I thinkthere would be more grace within
these tools.
But you know, at the end of theday, some humans just suck, you

(01:12:18):
know.
So it's just.
Yeah, there's, there's alwaysgonna be, there's always gonna
be racists.
They're few and far between,but they're always gonna exist.
There's always gonna be peoplewho think women don't deserve
equality, like.
There are always gonna bepeople who are just out to To
fall into a Batman movie.
They're just out to see theworld burn.
They just love the chaos.

(01:12:39):
You know, misery lovesmiserable company.
They're gonna be trying to makeeverybody just as miserable as
them, so that they don't feel soalone.
That's never gonna end, nomatter how advanced or civilized
we get, that's never gonna end.
Yeah, but we can.
We can lessen the effect of it,though, and I think that really
all comes down to likespreading awareness, and I see

(01:13:02):
it happening a lot Nowadays withlike, especially since the
social dilemma came out, and JoeRogan's done a few interviews
with, like the, the Directorsand the people who put that
documentary together TristanHarris, I think it's his name,
and like those conversationsmatter and that's happened
through podcasting People.

(01:13:22):
The collective, the collectiveattention span, is still pretty
minuscule, like it's stillpretty tiny, but I feel like in
pockets, in small little groupsthroughout our society, in our
culture, people are starting toget a little bit more tolerant
of a video longer than 20seconds, say, or whatever TikTok

(01:13:43):
videos are is what I'mreferencing.
So it's one of those musclesthat we just have to have to
keep putting in the reps andOver time, our collective
attention span will continue togrow and grow because people are
gonna start realizing oh well,I can't trust all this stuff
coming on social media becausepeople are trying to make money,
everybody's trying to sell yousomething.
You know there's a, there's alyric there's.

(01:14:08):
This rapper is named serengeti.
He's pretty Not I don't knowthat many people, I don't really
get many listens on Spotify,but he has this song where
there's a lyric.
He says who can you reallytrust when everybody's trying to
sell you something?
And when I hear that it's likeman, like that hits me hard
right, yeah, I'm like dang likehe wrote this song years ago,

(01:14:32):
like who can you really trust?
You know, and we're getting toa point where we need someone to
trust.
We crave it, you know, becausethat's that tribe mentality,
like we're still tribalcreatures, we're still herd
animals, so we need to trust.
Without the trust, you'reconstantly getting cortisol
dumps going on and it's justlike okay, when is this all

(01:14:52):
gonna end?
You know the end is near.
Like you see, those people.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
That's why, that happens because their way of
life, their worldview, ischallenged to the point where,
like it's existential fear, likeit's all gonna end, it's gotta
be coming soon.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Yeah, that's so true.
So, yeah, yeah, it's a crazy,it's so, it's so strange being a
human being, isn't that?
We're just mad with this?
We're, we're start, we'rerunning around in the Happiest,
wealthiest, most peaceful timehas ever existed in our History

(01:15:31):
as a species, but we're allrunning around with just as
really sophisticated chimps withsuits us just and that's the
thing about.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
That is what you just said is all true, but then
running around alongside that,depression rates are higher than
they've ever been, suiciderates are higher than they've
ever been, like the people thathave to seek treatment for, for
debilitating, chronic mentalhealth issues.
It's higher than it's ever beenBecause we're not made for

(01:16:01):
comfort.
You know there's a book, ummichael easter wrote this book.
I think it's michael easter ishis name.
I called the comfort crisis andhe talks about that man.
Like we're not made for allthis comfort and all this like
Whatever it, whatever you wantto call it.
So I mean, like that's why,when I'm fighting burnout to

(01:16:25):
bring it back to that sort ofthing I have to seek discomfort.
You know, like that's how I readVery interesting, that's how I
recharge, because I'm like I'venever worked in an office before
my life and now I'm in anoffice 40 hours a week, well, or
on the road, one, either one ofthe one or the other.
So it's like sometimes I'm justsitting there doing my emails

(01:16:47):
and doing all the thingsinteractions and putting on the
happy face, even though I don'tlike the person I'm talking to
or whatever the case may be.
You know, playing the game.
But then I get back to mycubicle and I'm like I'm about
to lose my mind.
What is that?
You know, I got a comfy chair,climate control.
I packed my lunch today so Idon't have to spend any money if

(01:17:08):
I don't want to.
Or I could just go over to thefreaking.
We got like four restaurantshere on campus.
I could just go hit it up.
You know, it's never been soeasy.
But, like sometimes in my, inmy work day, I'm just like, oh,
I'm about to lose it.
So what do I do?
I go to the gym and throw heavyweight around and almost puke
all over the girl doing yoga,you know it's like, and then

(01:17:30):
after after all that I'm likewell, I'm going to go sit in
this sauna and see if I can likemake myself pass out.
You know, it's like yeah that'swhat it is.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
It's humans, man.
Yeah, it's interesting.
You said that because I seen aquote once.
It was supposed to be like afitness motivational and it's
like you're not built to be sataround watching Netflix, You're
built to be running 30 miles andfighting supertive tigers and I
was like, oh man, it's true,and you know it's.
It's this concept ofmanufactured hardship.

(01:18:02):
I think the build up thosemental calluses in your brain.
So, for example, something Ilike to do is something as
simple as a shower.
I like to have a warm shower inthe morning, as you do, but
then to finish it, I'll do 30seconds of it on the coldest
setting.
And in the beginning, man, thatwas hard, but now I actually

(01:18:23):
look forward to it because Ialready know, I know, obviously,
during at my body's going, whaton earth is this?
You know all the naturalprocesses are going on.
You know, as a bloke for the 30seconds, I end up looking like
a woman, identifying as a woman.
We're both in cold shower.
Absolutely Embrace it, oh yeah,but you know, 30 seconds in and

(01:18:48):
afterwards, you know you got melike man, I'm alert, I feel good
and I'm ready to attack the dayand it's, it's.
It's interesting, I think thatI don't know how you keep doing
it, but you keep saying thethings that have been happening
to me, the part that I've beenexperiencing.
I'm putting them, you know,into.

(01:19:10):
I hope I'm going to use theright word here, but verbiage.
It's in that, like recently,when I say it, when I say a
reason, I mean like as ofyesterday, I was kind of feeling
a bit de-energized, a bit likejust going through the motions,
and internally I didn't, Ididn't even speak a lot, but
internally I knew that I washappiest when I was getting

(01:19:34):
after it and at the end of theend of a hard working day I was
like satisfied, like yes, youknow, I worked hard, the podcast
, my great progress, or I had areally good day at work.
It was hard graft, but weachieved something.
I find that when I'm, when Ideliberately indulge in
continuous, non-stop comfort,that's when the danger starts to

(01:19:58):
creep in.
That's when I start to feel abit disenfranchised and a bit
irritable and a bit it's better,and it's so strange that we
crave it, but then, when we getit, too much of it makes us
miserable.
It's such a weird existence,isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
Man, I am not a neurobiologist, I am not an
evolutionary scientist, so Idon't know the mechanisms that
cause that within us, but I knowI experience it.
If I sit around too long, Iturn into just a miserable, just
not a good person to be around.
So that's why, every single day, man, I have to do something,

(01:20:38):
like on my rest.
Even on my rest days, I'm stillgetting in like six or seven
thousand steps.
You know, mowing the grass.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
I'm about to ask about that.
Actually, how's the runninggoing?

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
I know you were like oh yeah, I took like a month off
, man.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
Yeah, which is the?

Speaker 1 (01:20:55):
it's the first time I've taken a month off in like
six years or so, but then lastweek I logged about 20 miles, so
I'm starting to get back afterit.
I've been adding in a lot morelike functional fitness type
stuff, a lot of kettlebell workand things like that, because it
means trail running season.
So it's whole business seasonbut and that takes a lot more

(01:21:18):
core and just, I feel that Ihave to, I have to focus a
little more on different levelsof fitness because of what my
life calls for now, Like if, say, if the situation calls for it,
I have to be able to pick upboth of my boys and run flat out
for a hundred yards to get awayfrom, say, an active shooter or

(01:21:40):
something, and if I'm notstrong enough in my upper body
to do that, then I'm not beingthe leader that I could be.
You know, Like what, if Ineeded to put my wife on my back
and both boys want to need toarm and move quickly in a
direction for an unspecifiedlength of you know distance?

(01:22:01):
Like, could I do it?
I mean sure, the adrenalinegoing, I could probably pull it
off, but could I?
Could I make myself morecapable of doing it?
Yes, Every single day.
So I've had to.
I've shifted my focus on myfitness to accommodate what my
life is asking of me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
Yeah, I really like that because I think me and you
are of a similar mindset and Ithink, well, most blokes
probably share it as well, thatvery primal urge to protect at
all costs, if you know what Imean, but just naturally fill
into that role.
But I think what separates youfrom most is that you've

(01:22:39):
recognized it and you're like.
You know it's that concept.
I think it's very popular inAmerica, that concept of left,
of buying, you know, gettingready before the incident rather
than the incident occurs.
And then you have to.
You have to, you know, react asbest you can.
You know, when I was when I was18, I was in a situation I never

(01:23:04):
thought I'd be in.
I was around a and I can't sayI'm mass shooting, but it was a
shooting, so to speak.
I was.
Fortunately someone did die andone got injured, and how.
The dude was a horrific shot,thankfully, because he took,
took, took potshots and about 10different people and I missed
him by about 10 seconds.

(01:23:25):
Like I shut the door behind meand then the shooting started
and I was able to go the otherdirection, but like I had no
concept of what to do, like youknow, there was no training.
There was no.
You know how would you put it.
You know your brain goes intofull flight or flight.
You know I mean, there's norational thinking.

(01:23:46):
It is get away from the dangerIf it's not right in front of
you.
You know, I mean, obviously, ifhe was right in front of me you
had to have done somethingabout it.
You couldn't run away.
But yeah, it's that.
It's that interesting conceptthat you know, and I face the
reality myself.
I'm not as capable as I couldbe.
I am trying, I'm trying to getbetter.
But how many of us sit in, aswe were just saying, continuous,

(01:24:10):
nonstop comfort and just expectsomeone else to come and save
us?
You know, I mean, it's it's ahard reality check.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
Or like how many people sit around and watch kung
fu movies and then think thatwhen somebody throws a punch at
them, they're going to, likeSidra, kick them in the back of
the head or something you knowit's like oh, I'm washed enough.
Jean Claude Van Damme moviesthat if shit hit the fan I'd be
good to go.
It's like okay, sure, likepeople actually believe that?
I do not.
I do not believe that becauseI've experienced it.

(01:24:42):
I have been punched in the faceand been like hell.
It just happened, you know so.
I know that it's when.
It's when we think we're hotshit, that's when everything
collapses around us.
That's that's what I've learnedfrom my own past is, every time
I've thought to myself, oh, I'mgood, I get overconfident and I
started thinking I've got thisall figured out, just then,

(01:25:06):
that's, that's when everythingjust happens.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
However, it's going to happen and I'm not prepared
for it.
Yeah, it catches you.
You've obviously been free,like, from some tough times, you
know, in your life and you knowI have been very fortunate to
see you where you are today.
Like the growth man you inspireme all the time when I just see
you getting after it.

(01:25:30):
Thanks, man.
So, for all the tough lessonsthat you've had to learn, what
do you think you can share witheverybody?
That like there's one lessonstand out, or is there a couple?
Like what with your life story?
What do you think you can shareto a younger generation?

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
Yeah, I mean that's kind of a tough question, I
guess.
I mean I've said it a milliontimes and I'm pretty sure I said
it last time I was on here andit's everything's temporary.
So I don't really.
That is very true and I stickby that.
I say that to people almostevery day.
Like this won't.

(01:26:08):
When you say Marcus Aurelius,your favorite quote this this
two shall pass.
So I mean that's definitelythere.
But like I think the biggestthing man is to just take, I
have to take time every singleday to just remember my why,

(01:26:30):
what, why am I doing all this?
You know, like Simon Sinek hasa book called Start With why and
it's a business leadership typebook about, like if a business
starts with the why they dostuff instead of the what
they're doing or the how, likeif you start with the why, then
you're automatically going to bethat much more successful.

(01:26:50):
But I mean I can I take that toa personal level, as I'm sure
millions of people have donewith his book, but if I think
it's Nietzsche right, he who hasyeah.
Frederick Nietzsche canunderstand or can make it
through any, whatever it is yeah, yeah, you can do it if you
know why you're doing it.

(01:27:12):
So yeah, for me, get clear on it.
So I've actually had to sitdown and put it on paper.
You know me, I need it on paper, written in Crayola, you know,
like dumb down, like speak to melike I'm five type of thing.
And I've had to get really,really clear about why I do
stuff.
So even when I'm in the gym andlike there'll be some days this

(01:27:36):
happened recently I've got apicture of my oldest son on my
cell phone wallpaper and has alot of parents do.
But for me, like I was on arowing machine the other day
just sucking, like I was on likemy third circuit of this little
thing I do, and I was just likeman, why, like, why am I doing

(01:27:56):
this to myself?
And then I remembered that Itold myself a while before this
anytime you ask yourself thatstupid question, just look at
your phone.
And I asked myself the questionand it became like it was just
like automatic.
I reached down, grabbed myphone and looked at it and there
he was with his little, likehis little toothless grin.

(01:28:18):
Actually he has a couple ofteeth.
I looked at it and I was like,okay, put my phone back in my
pocket.
I just got back going on therowing machine faster than it
was before.
So if we get clear about why wedo things, when it gets really
monotonous and really bad andthings just seem like they'll

(01:28:39):
never end or the pain we thinkis too great, just remember why.
And that takes me to the nextlevel.
You know I'm a purpose drivenguy.
You know, like I have to havethe mission and I have to
understand the purpose of themission and it has to mean
something to me.
So I can just be like I'm doingthis, why to make a paycheck?

(01:29:01):
That's not deep enough for me,like it has to be like bigger
than me.
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
Yeah, damn right, I really liked that.
I might have to take that goingforward, like you know well,
that concept of what's your whyyeah, it's powerful isn't it A
lot better a question than youknow what or how?
You know what I mean, at leastto.

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
Oh for sure, the what and the how are easy.
The what and the how are theeasy parts.
It's the why, you know, becausethat's like trying to find your
purpose, you know.
People are obsessed about, like,how do I find my passion and my
purpose?
Like, well, you don't find it,you make it.
You know, try new shit, you trynew shit.

(01:29:47):
And then if you say, oh, Idon't like this thing, well then
you do a different thing untilyou find the thing.
And then you're like, oh, thisis my shit, this is my purpose,
I'm passionate about this.
When I do, this time doesn'texist.
I'm in flow.
You know, mihai Chick-Man Sihi,I get in the flow state and
it's on when I do this thing.

(01:30:08):
Okay, so that's it.
Now, what are you going to dowith that?
That's your why?
Oh, go do it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
Oh man, that's powerful, that is.
And just so I'm curious today,like when you're In fact no,
there's a question I would liketo ask you, given all the sort
of lessons you have imparted,like, in your opinion, was it
mean to be a good man?
Like you know, I think there'sloads of definitions and there's

(01:30:40):
definitely some like, somewords will be constantly sort of
enshrined within that idea.
But, just like from your ownperspective and your own life
journey, what do you think makesa good man?

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
Yeah, so I've struggled with this right,
because a few years ago I alwayshad these ideas of what I
thought it meant to be a goodman, you know, and it was really
just me regurgitating stuffthat other people were saying,
you know, these catchy buzzwords like of how, what I think
masculinity is supposed to looklike.

(01:31:14):
But I only thought that becausethat's what a whole bunch of
other sources were telling me.
And now, being a dad andstriving to be a better husband
and just doing all the thingsthat life is asking of me, I
think it's being comfortable inyour own skin and being

(01:31:36):
confident in your ability toperform, no matter what is
happening and I mean thatphysically, mentally,
emotionally, spiritually, allthe facets right, being able to
like.
For me, the most importantthing that I've cultivated by
myself is being able to saythat's a problem for future,

(01:31:57):
marcus, and I can only say thatbecause I trust that I can
handle it, no matter what it is.
I know the example I used wasdiscussion in class or something
like that, but it's anythingright, like, say, I'm in Walmart
, or like a store and then anactive shooter comes in, like,

(01:32:18):
am I capable of doing the things?
Like, I'm confident in myselfenough to say that's a problem
for future, marcus.
Because when the shit hits thefan, I know that I will react in
a specific way.
Because when I'm in the gymthrowing a medicine ball over my
shoulder, or on a rollingmachine or running or like
whatever I'm doing, like I'mthinking in my head, like I'm

(01:32:42):
putting myself in thosescenarios mentally, you know,
power of the mind is amazing.
Like we can manufacture certainscenarios in our mind and make
ourselves believe it's realright, but that's a topic for
another time.
But yeah, to be a man it's tobe confident in your skill set,
because you've done it Likeyou're prepared.

(01:33:04):
You know I like that.
I mean also man like this is notjust to be a man, but to be.
What's it mean to be a goodperson, developing the skill set
to be a good person man.
Like there are some times when,oh, and minding the gap right,
like being able to see theplaces where you're falling

(01:33:25):
short, and then being humbleenough to be like what do I got
to do to fix that?
And then to go, do it, find thetools, try 15, 16 different
tools.
Whatever it takes, none ofthose work, or one of them is
going to work.
So insert that tool into thatplace.
Boom, you're good to go.

Speaker 2 (01:33:43):
Yeah, take a Swiss Army knife to your problem and
see what it fixes For sure.
Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
I really like that.
I like this army knife.

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
Yeah yeah, Well, that's so good.
I haven't actually owned one inyears.
I used to own one and I lost itout.
I went camping somewhere.
I was raging.

Speaker 1 (01:34:02):
But you said take a Swiss Army knife to your
problems.
Now, I like that.
I actually had a conversationwith a guy yesterday.
He was asking me aboutsomething and I was like man,
google coping mechanisms orwhatever, and then you'll find a
list.
Try them all.
Something works, keep it, yeah.
The rest, if it doesn't work,throw it out.

Speaker 2 (01:34:21):
Yeah, there's one for you If you're one or both of
your sons eventually came to youand said, in relation to what
you previously mentioned, likehow do you feel comfortable on
your own skin?
What would you say to them?

Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
What are the obvious answers?
To practice self-awarenessreflection daily.
My sons are going to see medoing these things.
They're going to see mejournaling.
They're going to see memeditating.
Hopefully they're going to getcurious and they're going to

(01:35:01):
want to do it themselves.
Do it with me.
We'll make it a men's groupright there in the living room.

Speaker 2 (01:35:08):
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, create a little triangleand I've got bookshelves.

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
Oh yeah, dude, I'm already making my band.
I'm already putting my bandtogether.
Dude, I mean, how do you becomfortable in your own skin?
It's about gaining experiences,building self-confidence and
self-efficacy.

(01:35:32):
So the only reason that I canbuild self-efficacy knowing that
I can do a thing is to go outand do the thing and maybe fail
a few times and then be like, ohwell, I can't do the thing, so
I should try harder to practicelearning how to do the thing.
So learning how to learn for onething, and then putting that

(01:35:55):
into place, and then just try awhole bunch of shit and I can
cultivate that in my sons.
I can take them out and be likehey, today, this weekend, we're
going to go out in the woods.
You guys want to go out in thewoods?
Yeah, okay, cool, while we'reout there, we're going to learn
how to build a fire together outof nothing but sticks.
You want to do that?

(01:36:16):
Yeah, let's do that.
And then, when they do it, it'sgoing to be hard, but when they
do it, they're going to be like, oh, I can't believe I did that
.
We're going to get prepared.
Watch some videos, do whateverwe got to do to get prepared to
go do it, go do the thing, buildthat self-efficacy, and then,
if I do my job right, my sonsaren't going to need to ask me

(01:36:37):
hey dad, how do I become from myown skin?
They're just going to naturallybe that way.

Speaker 2 (01:36:42):
Oh, I like that.
That's very good If I do my jobright.

Speaker 1 (01:36:46):
I mean, I may be wrong in that, but that's just
how I feel, yeah sort of lead byexample kind of thing.
Oh, all day, every day, man, allday, every day.
And that comes back to that.
It doesn't matter how I feel,right, Like their little eyes
are watching me constantly.
So when I'm there around them,I got to be on.

(01:37:08):
I can't let the little thingsin my life interfere.
I can't let them see me flyingoff the handle because I don't
know certain deadlines weren'tmad or something you know
arbitrarily like that.
When I'm around them, I have tobe around them, I have to be
there for them.
So hopefully they're not goingto have to ask me questions like

(01:37:30):
that, but if they do, you knowthat's a problem for future
markers.

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):
There it goes again.
Someone said that I actuallythrew out the ask you about was
you in a previous question.
You were talking aboutgenerating a skill set to be
just a decent human being, like,do you think there's certain
skills that are an absolute mustjust to be a decent human being

(01:37:59):
, or what?
Or is it variety, or what doyou think?
What do you think that skillsays?

Speaker 1 (01:38:04):
Well, a little preface for that.
It's going to vary byindividual right, depending on
what type of life circumstances.
You got what you want to do,what who you want to be.
But yeah, I think, man, I seethis every single day One of the
number one skill sets to be agood human is to be articulate,

(01:38:25):
be able to take a complex ideaand communicate it clearly.
Man, if more people could dothat, everything the world would
be such a better place.
Right?
And then learn how to ask theright questions, Learn how to
not be so quick to judgment ofother people, because
everybody's got their own shit.
So I would say empathy.

(01:38:47):
Empathy is a key soft skill,man, and a lot of people don't
practice enough of.
I even.
I have issues with it here.
Straight up, empathy wassomething I always struggled
with.
I don't know why.
I asked my therapist one time,years and years ago hey, do you
think I'm a psychopath?
She said, well, the fact thatyou're asking me that question
means that you're probably not apsychopath.

(01:39:08):
And I was like, hey, that's good, because I had such an issue
with feeling emotions and likegiving a giving a shit about
other people, right, like Istruggled with that, and so it
was a soft skill that I had tocultivate for myself.
And I really believe thatstudying history has helped me
with that, because reading,especially like reading about

(01:39:28):
the transatlantic slave tradeand some of the slave narratives
and what those individuals wentthrough, and then just so many
different examples throughhistory where people have
suffered, and I've read theirpersonal accounts and it just I
put myself in their place, youknow, and I'm like dang, like
people really go through somehard shit, you know.
So that can it can becultivated through intentional

(01:39:52):
practice, and that's anotherskill being able to practice
something intentionally, onpurpose, like focus, but then
communications, one of thoseskills that you can never be too
good at it, you know.
But then there's also more.
See those.

(01:40:13):
Those are more like abstractconcepts, I would say, but there
are some practical things thatI think people need to cultivate
to make them better.
Humans and people are going toprobably disagree with this, but
breathing exercises in themoment, right?
So I've been waiting for anopportunity to plug this in your

(01:40:33):
, in this talk, so now is thetime.
There's this thing called aphysiological sigh.
Have you ever heard of it?

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
I think I have, and if it's what I think it is, I
get so much grief for it from myfamily.

Speaker 1 (01:40:47):
Well, andrew, andrew Huberman from Stanford has
talked about it on multiplepodcasts he's been on, and it's
just, it's one breath.
You go in as deep as you canfill your lungs up and then,
when you get to as full as youthink you can go, you just give
a little, one more little bumpand then it's a slow, extended
exhale.

(01:41:07):
Is that what you were thinking?

Speaker 2 (01:41:09):
Nope, no, it wasn't.
I have this thing I do where Ijust do like one really long
sigh and I don't know why.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
Physiologically I think it's like a natural stress
release, but it lacks shoulderselongates the neck, yeah, yeah,
lacks all that internal stuffthat's all bunched up.
But that's what thephysiological sigh does.
But there's science behind it,right?
So when you're coming in andyour lungs are getting super,
duper, duper full, and then it'sthat little last inhale, yeah,

(01:41:40):
and it opens up the avioli,which you know.
That's where the exchangehappens, that oxygen and CO2
exchange happens, and you gotthat elongated exhale and that's
when everything just melts away.
And a lot of people that I'vetalked this to, man, they can't,
they can't get past that littlelast inhale.
At the end Everybody alwayslaughs and I'm like, just trust

(01:42:02):
me, it works.
So, if you can, that's a,that's a, that's a skill set,
right, like that's a tool thatcan be used.
And for me, I practicebreathing exercises six, seven
times a day, easy, like I give.
I give presentations at my jobevery now and again, right
before I walk into a room, I dofive physiological sighs Boom,

(01:42:25):
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,right back to back.
And when I walk in the room,I'm cool as a cucumber, like,
hey, what's up everybody?
How's it going?
Let's talk about whatever I'mabout to talk about.
So I mean being able to findwhat relaxes you and makes you
more tolerable to other people,and then cultivating that being
able to put it to use to me likethat's a.

(01:42:48):
you can't put a price tag onthat Because I'm me.

Speaker 2 (01:42:51):
I know I'm tough to be around sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:42:53):
So if I can develop a toolkit to make me a little bit
more digestible for people,it's going to take me places man
.

Speaker 2 (01:43:03):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
I already think you're.
You're quite cool.
Anyway, I didn't really thinkyou'd need a breathing exercise
to do it, but yeah, you'd besurprised, man, you'd be
surprised.

Speaker 1 (01:43:12):
It's all a facade.

Speaker 2 (01:43:14):
That's all of us.
To be fair, we all have our offdays, don't we?
Oh yeah, do you believe we'vebeen talking for an hour and 45
minutes?

Speaker 1 (01:43:23):
Yeah, I was just looking at that.
I've only got this room tilltwo.

Speaker 2 (01:43:26):
Yeah, don't worry, we'll wrap it up, but before we
do, just out of genuinecuriosity here you said you're
in time.
That's why you're the curiousold man man, Exactly, man,
Exactly.
You said you know, when yoursons are older, you've already,
you know, quote unquote gettingyour band ready.
Genuinely curious, Genuinely,In fact.

(01:43:49):
That could potentially answerthat question we were discussing
before we started recording.
What's a question you've neverbeen asked?
What's the band name?

Speaker 1 (01:44:00):
Oh, what's the band name?
Oh, yeah, yeah, I don't know,man Probably.

Speaker 2 (01:44:10):
It's going to be history really.

Speaker 1 (01:44:12):
I was going to say something and the Kings.
So yeah, marcellus and theKings, because my oldest son's
middle name is Marcellus.

Speaker 2 (01:44:24):
Oh, strong, very strong, because you're really
the middle Kings I like it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
You're going to make old school punk rock music, if
that's what they're into, ohyeah, probably, or maybe.
Norwegian black metal.
I don't know Whatever rap it is.

Speaker 2 (01:44:40):
Oh, no, here.
Oh yeah, On the thing of Norway, I have recently really gotten
into, you know, our Selvix music.
He was the guy that did themusic for the hit TV show
Vikings man.
I've got all his stuff on vinyl.

Speaker 1 (01:44:57):
He is so good, he's a vinyl nerd now.

Speaker 2 (01:45:01):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45:02):
Yeah, I've heard it's come up on some of my man like
the playlist that Spotifymanufacturers.
I've gotten some of the songsfrom Vikings.
I listened to movie epic moviesoundtracks when I work out
sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:45:16):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, have you seen 14.

Speaker 1 (01:45:19):
Peaks.
No, I haven't that, nims Perjadocumentary where he climbs all
of the tallest peaks you know inthe Himalaya and the Karakoram,
like, and he does it in likeseven months, Like the dudes are
freaking animal.
I suggest that go watch it.
The soundtrack is like superepic.
So I watched that movie onenight and then the next day I

(01:45:40):
was on a.
I was on the ski yard machinejust like climbing this mountain
man.
Oh, it's so empty.
People think I'm ridiculous.
Yeah, I really don't care, Ireally do not care, I'll send
you.

Speaker 2 (01:45:54):
I'll send you this YouTube video.
I've somebody did like a mashupof Vikings music, but it's from
in our Selvic and it's like thebetter version of one of his
songs.
I can't remember what it'scalled, but, man, it is the
ultimate Jim music.
I'll send it to you and, if youtell me, the new PR after that

(01:46:17):
challenge accepted, we'll seewhat happens.

Speaker 1 (01:46:19):
man that's exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:46:21):
Yeah, that's cool man .
We'll wrap it up there, but, asalways, I'd love to sort of
share your content and whereverpeople can find you.
So for people who want to hearmore about your own journey and
what you get up to working,people find you.

Speaker 1 (01:46:38):
Yeah, I mean, like I said earlier, I've been I've
actually been off social mediacompletely for I don't even know
how long now six months or sobut I'll check my Instagram
periodically from here on.
It's just Marcus A Thornton.
I'm at Marcus A Thornton onInstagram.

(01:47:00):
Honestly, that's probably thebest way.
I'm on LinkedIn as well.
It's Marcus Thornton.
You can find me on there.
I use LinkedIn mainly just for,like, professional purposes,
but you can find me on there andoutside of that.
I mean, I don't know, I don'tthink there is any other way for
now, but yeah.

(01:47:21):
To be fair, you're probably.
Maybe soon I'll have a websitefor something, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:26):
To be fair, you're a wise man and amongst a lot of us
here getting rid of that socialmedia and probably just doing
the absolute bare minimum.
If I get to the stage where I'monly checking Instagram
periodically, I'll be doing aswell as yourself, sir, but.

Speaker 1 (01:47:42):
Well, I mean we'll see Whatever business standpoint
, it makes perfect sense likeit's a tool, like I said earlier
.
So if you're not, if anindividual is not using those
tools to help propel themselvesforward, and whatever field
they're in, then you're justcheating yourself, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:47:58):
Yeah, yeah, 100% Right, we'll leave it there,
marcus, thanks a million forcoming on, and I'd love to have
you back on the show anytime,brother.
So, yeah, just let you know?

Speaker 1 (01:48:09):
Yeah, we'll work it out.
Man, it's great to chit chatwith you.
It's always a pleasure man.

Speaker 2 (01:48:15):
Cheers man.
There you go, folks.
That concludes today's episode.
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(01:48:36):
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(01:49:21):
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