Beyond Division: Building Peace in a Fractured World with Jer Swigart and Osheta Moore

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A conversation with peacemakers Jer Swigart and Osheta Moore reveals a profound alternative to our increasingly divided religious and political landscape. As founders of Global Immersion, they've dedicated their lives to training Christian leaders in the art of transformative peacemaking.

Their journey began with a realization that the Christianity they inherited "promoted domination more than restoration." Through experiences in conflict zones and learning from marginalized communities, they discovered a Jesus who was "magnificently defiant against systems that dignified some while denigrating others" yet "indefatigably nonviolent."

What makes their approach unique is how they combine big-picture vision with everyday practice. While Jer brings strategic thinking about global conflict, Oshita brings spiritual direction and embodied practices that help peacemakers sustain their work. Together they create transformative experiences that don't just inform but awaken participants to the question: "Who must we become?"

Their flagship program takes Christian leaders on a six-month journey culminating in immersion trips to places like Belfast, Northern Ireland. There, participants learn directly from those who have navigated sectarian conflict—and surprisingly, find these experienced peacemakers expressing concern about America's growing divisions.

The parallels are striking: in both contexts, groups "cloistered with people who thought just like them" and became convinced that "building enough power to crush the opposition" was necessary, all while claiming divine blessing. Against this mindset, Global Immersion promotes a vision of community that includes ideological "others," pointing to Jesus's own community of former enemies.

Perhaps most compelling is their emphasis on "companioning" rather than converting. "It used to be that clergy made their living being certain," Swigart notes. Today's faith leaders must instead create "environments where people can be incomplete, imperfect, and in process."

This conversation offers hope that even in our fractured world, another way is possible—one that builds bridges rather than walls, that restores rather than dominates, and that finds in faith not a weapon but a path toward healing.

Episode Transcript

Chris Nafis (00:00):
Hey and welcome back to the Current.
This is Pastor Chris Nafis,living Water Church, and really
grateful today to have JerSwigart and Oshita Moore joining
me.
These two were the leaders ofour cohort where we went to
Belfast and had a whole longprocess of learning to become
better peacemakers.
I've shared a bit about that onthe podcast.
Jer is the co-founder of GlobalImmersion, which we're going to

(00:22):
talk about a bit on the podcasttoday, training and building
peacemakers and a community ofpeace fellows who are doing this
kind of work in the world.
Oshita is his fearlesscompanion in it.
She's a spiritual director andan author of books like Dear
White Peacemaker.
They're a killer combo and bothof them have been amazing,
amazing influences andinspirations in my life.

(00:42):
I hope that you'll find alittle bit of inspiration in the
conversation here as well.
Here it is, enjoy, hey, jer andOshshita.

(01:05):
Thank you guys so much formaking time for me.
Uh, thank you for all thethings that you've invested in
me over the last I don't knowwhat eight, nine months or
whatever, and then for doingthis little extra bit of coming
on the podcast.
Thanks for being here oh, ofcourse, totally.
What a gift yeah, oh, you guysare the gift, um, you know, for
many of most of our people.

(01:26):
Know that, know me, know that Igot to go on this amazing
global immersion trip this year.
We went to Belfast and kind ofgot immersed in the troubles and
got trained formally in the artof peacemaking, mediation.
These are the two people thatled the group and put it all
together and hosted us andfacilitated all these great
gatherings, and so, yeah, I justwanted to come, bring you guys

(01:51):
on and talk about, like, how didthis all come to be?
What do you do?
Why are you doing it?
All those kinds of things.
So maybe can I just ask first,like, how did you end up
training peacemakers?
Like, how did that become yourvocation?

Osheta Moore (02:03):
I'll let you start , Jer, and then I'll jump in.

Jer Swigart (02:05):
Yeah, yeah, sure, I mean, I think it's the kind of
occupation that I think found memore than me going out and
searching for it.
You know, I think I had someunique experiences in our global
village that put me proximateto pain and injustice and

(02:27):
conflict, and I realized that Ireally didn't have a solid
theological foundation thatwould fuel me toward repair.
I was socialized into a form ofChristianity that promoted
domination a bit more thanrestoration, that promoted
domination a bit more thanrestoration.
And you know, and then whenyou're in proximity to some

(02:48):
significant pain in the worldand recognize, oh, I don't know
that I have a theology thatfuels repair or restoration,
that became problematic for me.
And then you know,simultaneously I didn't really
feel like I had the skill seteither.
So I was lacking theology, Iwas lacking skill, and so I went

(03:11):
to work in the streets and inthe seminaries to grow a more
robust understanding, and thatput me in proximity to folk who
had been marginalized by thereligion that I had inherited,
and they introduced me to aJesus that was so unbelievably
compelling, and a Jesus that wascompassionate but magnificently
defiant against systems andstructures and ideologies and

(03:33):
theologies that dignified somewhile denigrating others, but
also a Jesus who wasindefatigably nonviolent, a
peacemaker through and through.
And so I just started todiscover a Jesus like that that
was really worth my life, andthe practices and the rhythms of
Jesus that were quiterestorative, and began to

(03:55):
explore and experiment withthose things.
And I did it with my faithcommunity at that time, the San
Francisco Bay area and mycolleague John was doing some
similar things down in the SanDiego area, and we just started
to recognize man.
There's something here about atheology and practice of peace
and reconciliation that we werelearning from marginalized
communities that might be forour communities, the ones who

(04:20):
had inherited a similar religionto us, and so we knew that we
weren't going to be able to talkpeople into the way of
peacemaking, that we were goingto have to live people into the
way of peacemaking.
And that's really where GlobalImmersion was born nearly 15
years ago.
And in all of that time Ipersonally have been on a

(04:41):
nonstop search for other peoplewho are like-minded, who have
taken different journeys toarrive to this kind of theology
and share our passion to trainpeople in the peacemaking way of
Jesus with us.
And that's where Oshita cameinto the story.

Osheta Moore (04:58):
Yeah, so I have been writing and leading and
equipping peacemakers for I wantto say, 15 years now, or over
15 years.
And so I got into this becausemy husband and I met in New
Orleans and we both moved intoan intentional community that

(05:21):
was focused on, like CCDA, johnPerkins principles and one of
the one of the important thingsthat we wanted to bring into
that community was, like,conflict resolution and
de-escalation of violence.
My husband used to be a gangmember.
This neighborhood that we movedin with two was known for its
gang violence and so we we weredoing peacemaking work on the

(05:44):
ground in different ways.
He was working at the communitycenter, directly with these
kids.
I was hosting meals andgatherings in my home.
I was teaching dance at thecommunity center, like we were
really embedded in doing thework of peacemaking.
My dad was a Marine for almost20 years.

(06:08):
He did two tours in Vietnam andthe PTSD that my dad
experienced and the ways that itshaped him as a man and as a
father I directly correlate thatback to the trauma he
experienced being participatingin violence and like it's it's
so deep for my dad.

(06:28):
He will, he will.
He never spoke about hisexperiences over there.
He was a very angry man, very,very wounded man, and so I was
always curious about thepeacemaking ethic of Jesus.
And then I added that to ourwork in New Orleans.
But then when we moved away fromNew Orleans because of
Hurricane Katrina which, like atthe time of this recording, it

(06:48):
was 20 years ago we moved away Irealized that the ways that I
was formed as a peacemaker werereally rooted in, like the
sensational big practices ofpeace, but like when you are
called to a specific space or aspecific moment or a crisis of
deescalating and peacemaking.
I was so trained and comfortablewith that.
I was not so comfortable witheveryday peacemaking.

(07:11):
And what does it look like totake the peacemaking ethic of
Jesus into my everyday life as ayoung mom, as a new wife, as a
Black woman, mostly white spaces?
And so that's when I startedwriting on my blog about the
intersection of Jesus' peacakingethic, the Hebrew concept of
shalom, in my everyday life andwrote one book at that point by

(07:32):
the time Jer and I met, calledShalom Sisters, which is for
women exploring peacemaking intheir lives up and started
working together and from ourwork, and while I was working
with him I released my secondbook, dear white peacemakers,
which is looking at thatpeacemaking ethic and the
current conversation ofanti-racism and moving towards a

(07:52):
vision of anti-racismpeacemaking yeah, thanks, you
guys are like a killer combo,because you know we got jare,
jare.

Chris Nafis (08:00):
You're like a charged kind of person going
like I mean it's, this is goingto sound ironic the word I was
about to use.
I was going to say go conquerthe world, but that's like the
opposite of what we're workingtowards here.
But, like you know what I mean,like you're, you're like go in
and go for the big stuff.
And then, oshita, in myexperience with you, you know
you're actually was really coolto see how many of the practices

(08:23):
that you brought to ourmeetings were very similar to
some of the stuff that we'vebeen developing in our trauma
work here locally at LivingWater.
Because you know that everydaystuff that you're talking about
like it's apparent in like thespiritual practices that you're
trying to teach us and the waythat you're using art and music
and sort of embodied practicesto kind of bring about the
everyday.
And so I feel like we kind ofgot both with you guys because,

(08:45):
um, because there's this likekind of big picture, like hey,
let's talk about global politicsand uh, like huge conflicts,
and then there's like this ishow we do this, this is how we
come into the space already atpeace, um, so that we're
prepared to do the work.
Um, so could you share a littlebit about, like, global
immersion?
I obviously participated and Iknow all about it, but could you
share a little bit about likewhat is it?

(09:07):
What do we do?
What, what do y'all do?
Maybe, jared, you want to start?

Jer Swigart (09:10):
Yeah, sure I mean, and even to interact with what
you just said.
That's very meaningful um, thatthat you see the um, the
nuances between Oshita and I,and I think that's something
that we really celebrate andwork really hard at nurturing,
both in our unique fingerprintin peacemaking, but also in
recognizing in our sharedleadership, when is the moment

(09:32):
that we need a little bit moremotivation and inspiration and
strategy and possibility andpossibility, and when do we need
to spend more time consideringwhat we're anchored to and how
we take good care of ourselvesand one another, tending to

(09:55):
peacemaking within our wingspan?
You know, and I think that'spart of what has always been the
ethos of, of global immersionis like we're, we're not, you
know, we, we're not involved inum, we're not overtly or
directly involved ingeopolitical peacemaking at an
advocacy level, but we certainlyare when it comes to forging

(10:16):
communities of people who aredaring to live a better story
and um, and these are folk whoare learning what it means to be
reconciled within as well asreconcilers among and around us.
You know, and so, yeah, and so,and if you're Enneagram folk,
I'm an eight and Oshita's a twoand I live like if you could see

(10:39):
my hair.
It looks like a flame, honestly, and I live with that kind of
spice.
It's not an exaggeration.
And Oshita is one of theabsolutely most profound pastors
, especially pastors in thepeacemaking movement, that I
have ever met, and so what agift to have, like a prophet and
a pastor, kind of side by side,guiding the way we form

(11:04):
everyday peacemakers.
That's what Global Immersiondoes, and we do it primarily by
reaching leaders andtransforming Christian leaders
into conflict competent leaders.
Our flagship program is asix-month cohort where we're
bringing in Christian leadersacross sectors, and so they're
in academic institutions,they're in congregational

(11:24):
leadership, they're innon-profit leadership, they're
in healthcare, they're inpolitics, they're in art.
You know they're all over theplace, but they're folks who
want to be fueled by their faithto deploy their influence
restoratively.
Lead is a six month longprogram, that is, it's
relatively robust and it'swraparound.

(11:45):
You know it's.
You're learning from some ofthe best peacemakers on the
planet through the miracle oftechnology and live
conversations with, with folkwho have, who think very, very
deeply about these things, andour practice is informed deeply,
or our thought leadership isinformed deeply by our practice,
you know.
And so when, when our cohort isworking with um, with us.

(12:07):
It it's seasoned and it's notuniversal.
It's real time, because theworld is not liquid, and neither
are we Um but uh but where it'salso wrap around in terms of it
it being one-to-one.
And so with Oshita, there'sspiritual direction provided and
with me there's coaching'scoaching provided around
formation or organizationalrenovation or programmatic

(12:27):
innovation.
And the program culminates in animmersive experience in a
conflict space or apost-conflict society where
we're learning again from someof the best peacemakers in that
given conflict, whether it's inthe deep South of the United
States or it's in NorthernIreland, in the midst of the
troubles.
And then, by the end of thatexperience, people are
recognizing not only the depthof the transformation in their

(12:49):
own lives, love and leadership,but the strength of connection.
We're no longer alone.
We're in a kindred communitywhere we're co-creating and
championing one another.
We're holding each other's armsup when we're exhausted, we're
celebrating when there's thingsto celebrate, we're grieving
when there's things to grievewith one another.
And then there's an invitationinto the Global Immersion

(13:11):
Fellowship, which is a longjourney that we get to continue
to embark upon together, ascolleagues and peers, raising up
peacemakers all over thecountry and all over the planet.
And in addition to that, we'reinvesting into this conversation
at a public space and thecountry and all over the planet.
And so, and in addition to that, like we, we were investing in
into this conversation at apublic space and the writing and
the podcasting, and there'scoaching and consulting and

(13:32):
workshopping.
That happens, I think, Oshita,again from a spiritual direction
standpoint and from her pen.
If you haven't, if you, if youhaven't had an opportunity to
listen in through the pen ofOshita Moore, like that's the
way in which she's guiding themovement pastorally, you know,
and so we're, we're puttingthese contributions into the

(13:52):
world and we're inviting othersinto that space with us to
inform a collectiveconsciousness and grow a muscle
for the work of repair.
Oshita, what would you add tokind of what we do and how we do
it?

Osheta Moore (14:03):
You know, you said so much that I agree with, and
I have worked with a lot ofnonprofits and a lot of
peacemaking leaders.
One space that I feel my mostcomfortable being my full self,

(14:32):
being who God created me to beas a peacemaker, as a brown
woman in mostly white spaces,like I said, and I think that
that is what we really try to.
It's baked into the friendshiphere and I have.
It's baked into our ownindividual ethoses around
peacemaking and being at peacewithin yourself, shalom within
yourself before you make shalomin the world.
And so what I would say is likeone of the things that we do

(14:54):
together really well and thatbecame a hallmark for the way
that we want to do the cohort,is that we are asking the
question who are you becomingLike?
Who is the peacemaker that Godhas in God's mind when they look
at you?
Like your unique makeup, yourunique context, who you are as a
peacemaker and what you bringto this work is more important

(15:16):
than the calls to action,because you need to know how
you're wired so that you canrespond to the calls to action
appropriately and authentically,so that you can do this work
sustainably, and so you know oneof the things that we really
focus on is that, likeself-awareness, is that tending
to your soul is the like we havethis covenant that we do that

(15:37):
you've done with us severaltimes, chris.
Or we talk about like it'simportant for you to know your
boundaries and know yourself andtake care of yourself, and and
for you to know your boundariesand know yourself and take care
of yourself and and tocommunicate to us your needs,
because that's how you grow as apeacemaker being that, having
that level of self-awareness,and that's a huge part of what
we do with our cohort.

Jer Swigart (15:57):
And I would just add to that too, like I love.
I love that, this notion thatthe outcome of our work is not
to replicate Jair and Oshitainto the world.
The outcome of our work is tocome behind leaders like you,
chris, who already have a uniquefingerprint in this work, and
help you understand it morefully and add some fuel to it,

(16:19):
some oxygen, some tinder, addsome relationship and some
community of people who believein you, with you, for you, in
terms of the unique contributionthat you're making into the
world, and like that's thecommunity that we're building.
So you know when it's hard forme anymore to answer the
question what is globalimmersion?
Simply with a mission statementand some programmatic

(16:42):
deliverables, because, chris,you are global immersion.
We have 56 peace fellows acrossthe country.
We, collectively, are globalimmersion because we're
committed to cultivating peaceand peacemakers around the
country, and I don't care ifanybody knows my name.
I want people to be so infectedby the restorative revolution
that we get to be a part ofbecause they've been in contact

(17:04):
with you, chris.
Like that, that is globalimmersion and that's that's what
we're trying to do.

Chris Nafis (17:10):
Well, you guys are doing really well, because
that's how I felt going throughthe immersion.
You know, I feel like many of usare so hesitant to kind of like
follow someone else's programand get in line with what
someone else is doing.
And what you guys have done isnot that, it's really like
you've just kind of broughtpeople together who are in

(17:31):
similar spaces in their theologyand their process and their
vocation and what we'reinterested in, and then, as you
said, like you've just kind ofgiven us some fuel, some
connection.
You've helped carve out somespace for us to reflect on what
we're doing and and really justsend us back to our work, kind
of fired up and energized andequipped in a new way to um, to

(17:53):
go back to what we were doingbefore.
So cause it is interesting,like when I think about global
immersion and what's kind ofcoming out of this, it's not
like it's not its own thing.
I mean it is because but whatit is is more of a community
full of people who are doingthese other things.
You know what I mean and and youall are just like making,
making, uh, others moreeffective and helping us to kind

(18:13):
of fend off the loneliness andthe isolation that comes in this
work sometimes and, uh, andyou're doing a great job at it.
So, uh, yeah, thank you for allthat you're doing.
It's been like really like I Iwent into the to the immersion
like very I don't know skepticalis not the right word, but just
like.

Jer Swigart (18:33):
I'm just wary, it's okay.
It's okay If you're a skepticalman.

Chris Nafis (18:34):
Well, but I don't think I was skeptical, but I
just, you know, like I just I'malways afraid to get my hopes up
too high with any of thesekinds of like going to a
conference or going to be a partof a group, because I just, you
just, I don't know, I justdon't want to be let down and it
was, it was great, like I justhave had a thoroughly great
experience all the way through,even into last week, when we had
our first thing that I was apart of as, like, a peace fellow

(18:56):
.
So so, yeah, I love what you'redoing.
I'm going off on just, you know, complimenting what you all are
doing.
So I guess my question for youis like you know, let me, let me
set this up.
Sorry, I'm talking a lot here,but we're in the process of
looking for a staff person rightnow and you know, one of the
things is is like okay, well,how do we find someone who's got

(19:20):
a deep faith and spiritualjourney and spirituality, but is
is kind of like, shaped in thisnarrow way of justice and peace
that seems so rare these days,like, and part of the question
for me is like, how do we bringmore people into that space.
Like Jerry, you kind ofdescribed almost like a
conversion experience in yourearly days of like coming to see

(19:41):
this Jesus who's not trying toconquer but who's trying to like
invite and carve out, make,make spaces for peace and those
sorts of things.
Like how do we, how do we kindof get people to like open up to
that different way ofexpressing our faith?
Is that, do you feel likethat's part of your calling?
I mean, in some ways, where arethose people in us, are in this

(20:02):
group, are already kind of onthat journey?

Osheta Moore (20:06):
That where those people in us are in this group
are already kind of on thatjourney.
That's a big question, but so Ithink I will.
I'll kick this off because Ithink this is the question that
I asked when I wrote Dear WhitePeacemakers, because I was
dealing with sort of the same, asimilar angst that you're
dealing with, of like, how do Itake good people who are, who

(20:28):
are genuinely good like and arecurious but like, skeptical and
they don't see how their ownlife or their own spiritual
formation intersects with thisidea of anti-racism and then
they are complicit to racism intheir context simply because of
lack of knowledge and lack ofwork.
And I think that one of thethings that was so impactful for

(20:55):
me at the very beginning ofmoving from a faith that was
very rooted in the do's anddon'ts and the ins and outs of
Christianity and that's how Idefined myself as a child of God
is who, what am I against andwho am I against?
Moving from that into adefinition of child of God is

(21:18):
made in the image of God andeventually, beloved.
Moving to that deeply humanizingspace in my own spiritual
formation helped me have animagination for what that could
look like for other people andan imagination for, like, what
are the obstacles that preventpeople from identifying and

(21:40):
sensing that they are made inGod's image or that their first
name is beloved?
And so I think that you know,whenever I'm thinking, whenever
I am looking for partners orpeople to hire or things like
that like who we're looking forin this cohort the thing I'm
looking for is, like, do youhave that inherent curiosity and

(22:02):
drive to find a way to proclaimbelovedness and to bestow the
image of God upon people?
Because it comes from a placeof like, deep, from that well
within yourself?
Like you are grounded in thatyour name is beloved and you
just can't help but move throughthe world and say you're made
in the image of God.

(22:23):
So it is not okay that you'rebeing forced.
There's a forced famine whereyou live.
Like you are made in the imageof God, it's not okay that you
don't have health care.
Like and because you experiencefamine or starvation and
because you experience illnessin your body, you cannot believe
that you're beloved.
So it's because you'reterrified to take your kid to

(22:44):
school because of gun violencethat's preventing you from
experiencing an identity orawareness that you're made in
God's image.
You're worthy to be protected,and then you don't believe that
your name is beloved, and so Ithink for me as a peacemaker.
Those are my two things thatI'm looking at and the two calls
to action when I show up inspaces.
Yeah, thank you.

Jer Swigart (23:05):
Yeah, I, I I'm finding, chris, that there are
more people growing skeptical.
There are more people in theChristian movement in the United
States that are growingskeptical of the religion that
they've inherited than we couldhave ever imagined, and I think

(23:27):
they're waiting not only to hearbut to see a better story and
the religion that I inherited,you know, position God is loving
but militant, you know, and sothis God endorsed the use of
violence to accomplish hisoutcomes.
And, um, and when I look backon my theology, you know I, I'm,

(23:51):
I look back with generosity, um, with with, you know, I've done
my work of grief and lament andthe things there.
But, like, I also now look backwith generosity because those
who gave me that religion weredoing the best that they could
with what they had.
They weren't unkind people,they just were discipling me

(24:13):
like they had been discipled.
And you know, it took for me acouple of moments of paying
attention a little bit different.
Like, I remember it was 9-11for me when I heard Christian
leaders that I really respectedendorse revenge rather than
reconciliation, and that wasthat sounded so off-putting to
me that I asked questions likewho is this violent Jesus that

(24:35):
endorses the violent demise ofmy constructed enemies, and is
this Jesus worth my life?
And I think there's a lot offolk right now asking those
questions.
But I also had to wrestle withthe fact that the God that lives
at the center of that religionendorses my accumulation of

(24:58):
wealth, power and safety,regardless of the cost of others
, and the use of force, whetherthat's in arrogant certainty or
it's exclusion, or maybe eventhe endorsement of elimination
of other people.
That's not like a bad idea.
That's righteousness, that'slike faithfulness, and I think

(25:22):
there's a lot of us right nowwho have been socialized into a
similar religion that looks morelike a God who wields crosses
rather than where is them, andare asking, are at a place in
their life where they're sayingif there's not a better version
of this, then I'm not sure thatit's worth my life at all.
And again, I think these peopleare dying to hear and see a

(25:46):
better story lived out.
When we talk about formingconflict-competent leaders or
peacemakers, part of that workinvolves companioning these
people on a journey from areligion that dominates to a
faith that restores.
I want to see the leaders thatwe're working with living a
better story and then narratingit, and as they're doing that,

(26:11):
they're actually helping othersbegin to see a hopeful
alternative to this religion ofdominance that they had
inherited.
So I actually, from my vantagepoint, I see a growing community
of people, just even in the 56Peace Fellows that we're working
with across the country.
I mean they have directinfluence collectively over tens

(26:34):
of thousands of people in thecountry on a weekly basis.
The Jesus that they'refollowing and the story that
they're narrating is really goodnews and it's contagious and I
think it's infecting people incommunities across the country.

Chris Nafis (26:48):
Yeah.

Osheta Moore (26:49):
Yeah.

Chris Nafis (26:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think you're right about all
that.
I guess I just see a lot ofpeople who have kind of come to
see the kind of what you sawjust the violence and the
inconsistencies and some of thethings that have been taught to
us by the generations before us,especially in evangelicalism.
A lot of people just walkingaway.

(27:11):
You know, and I think, like youknow, I'm also a hospital
chaplain and I see people inlater years who are trying to
return to the roots of faithbecause they've walked away or
they've just not kept up ontheir spiritual practices or
whatever.
And I just think, like peoplelike our, our, our faith
communities are meaningful youknow what I mean and like our

(27:32):
spiritual lives matter and the,the ways that we find meaning in
the world to make connection, Icould think I gotta think
people are gonna be coming backto those things if they've left
at some point and rethinkinglike all right, have I thrown
out everything when there'ssomething really beautiful here?
And so I love the idea of likeliving, like telling another
story, that um sort of invitespeople back or invites people to

(27:56):
stay or just kind of invitespeople into an alternative
vision of what it means to be achristian, um, and that's I mean
part of, that's why I'm doingthis podcast at all.
It's partly why I enjoyedglobal immersion so much, so I
get to see people doing that inall these different settings, um
, it's just good.
You know what I I mean.

Jer Swigart (28:13):
Yeah, yeah, I agree , go ahead.

Osheta Moore (28:15):
Well, I was going to say I think that those who
have left their faith traditionsor their faith spaces that are
now looking to come back.
I think one of the cause thatthat the church where I pastor
roots Moravian we're made up ofa bunch of people like that who

(28:35):
are have left for a variety ofreasons, have deconstructed and
then, like, reconstructed theirway back in and now they're
trying to figure out like whatdoes my spirituality look like
now and like a key drivingprinciple for my husband and me
is that we will choose humilityover certainty every time.

(28:56):
And so like.
There are certain big rocksthat we're like are important to
us.
But even in the way that wetalk about these big rocks,
we're also incredibly generousand give space for pushback and
questions.
Not that we're like we don't.
We're going to like push off ofthis concept, like Jesus is at
the center of our faith.
So you're not going to come toroots and not hear about Jesus,

(29:18):
but we want to hear why Jesus isdifficult for you to interact
with.
Like I'm a spiritual directorand I, one of the first
questions I always ask when I amin consultation is what are the
names for God and the picturesof God that are meaningful for
you right now and which of thoseare problematic?
And the reason why I ask thatis because I recognize that that
level of humility and space isfor people to just say it out

(29:42):
loud and not be judged by it isthe.
It's a really important on-rampback into owning their
spirituality and back into, likea life-giving, love-fueled
relationship with God, becausethey have not been formed in
spaces where they can say, likeI don't understand the violence
of the God in the old Testament,and then now you're telling and

(30:02):
then Jesus died a violent death.
And now you're telling me he'sthe Prince of peace.
What is that?
Because we just explain it awayand we're like no, no, no,
we'll sit with that.
So I think that that is whatpeople are craving.

Jer Swigart (30:22):
It's not necessarily all the right
answers, but spaces to ask thequestions in a loving and gentle
and humble space.
Yeah, and that's why I feellike the verb that is really
important right now for faithleaders in our country is
companion.

Osheta Moore (30:30):
Yeah our country as companion.

Jer Swigart (30:31):
Yeah, you know, like it used to be that that
clergy or faith leaders, pastorsthey made their living being
certain, and and certainty, Ithink, is a hard reality to live
in.
Cause number one I'm neverfully right, I'm always
partially wrong, and we all knowthat, like we all know that we

(30:51):
all actually know that ourperspective is not 20-20 vision.
But I mean even the educationthat I was provided during my
Masters of Divinity journey inseminary trained me to lead a
church in 1980.
Predictable in a world thatasked for their pastor to be a

(31:13):
spiritual CEO and give themanswers, when, in fact, I think
that one of the most importanttasks of the pastoral ministry
right now is to companion peoplein an Emmaus Road kind of way,
which gives people all thepermission in the world to be
exactly where they are.
And companion doesn't mean thatyou don't have conviction, but

(31:38):
I think it does mean that thatyou're creating the kinds of
environments where your peoplecan be incomplete, imperfect and
in process in their pursuit ofa better story.

Osheta Moore (31:49):
You know, and and it because otherwise we're just
gonna, we're all we're doing islike convincing and converting,
which I think are actualactivities of power and even
tools of violence at times yeah,you know the the word companion
is often used for spiritualdirectors like we are spiritual
companions, but like a word thatI really gravitate toward as a

(32:10):
pastor is this idea of being ashepherd.
Like I know enough, like I knowenough, like I know enough of
the terrain that I can get usfrom point A to point B.
But I'm walking with you on thatand I am on the out, I'm
looking out for the pitfalls andthe dangers and like I have
this like deep sense of, likecompassion and care for you,
like I think so many of us wereraised in informed and faced

(32:34):
spaces where there was nocompassion, there was no empathy
.
It was like very much likeyou're right, you're wrong,
we're right, you are likesinners in the hands of an angry
God.
You're a worm, you're a scum,like all these kinds of things
that when we talk about sin, wetake all the hurt, angry, dark

(32:55):
feelings we have around sin andwe throw that onto image bearers
, and so we haven't beenencouraged to have our faith
formed in spaces where we'relike, no, no, no, no, you're
made in God and the image of God, you're a child of God and
you're beloved.
So we're going to talk to youand treat you like that.
In that space, I'm going toshepherd your heart towards a
more beautiful um pasture and amore beautiful space with God,

(33:19):
like that's my job as a pastorand I think that's what people
are craving right now.

Chris Nafis (33:25):
Yeah, I mean I, I feel the same.
I think that's that's part ofhow I see my job as a pastor
also is is not uh, and I don'tthink I could do the other job
Like I, I just like cause,because I don't, I don't have
this level of certainty that'srequired to like speak with this
authoritative voice all thetime, like it's just, it would
be disingenuous, for me at least, and maybe there's others that

(33:47):
that's, that they're soconvinced that they're right
about these specific, you know,theological points or whatever,
that they can speak with thatvoice.
But I, I just I don't feel likeI can, and I and I don't know
that I want to, and I hope thatthat's, I think, at least for
our little community.
I think that's kind of what weneed in in our little corner of
San Diego right now.

(34:07):
I think you guys are doing thatgreat.
So, as you're talking, I'mthinking about the way that the
program kind of plays out withthis immersion experience that
we kind of journey on together,because I feel, like you're,
that that is really what it feltlike it was.
This companion'm almost kind ofbeginning to see some of that,
of like the, the.
The whole purpose is to kind ofgo and experience something

(34:39):
together and sort of process ittogether.
But I don't want to put wordsin your mouth Like why, why, why
is this the method of, of kindof teaching and experiential
learning that you're taking?

Jer Swigart (34:50):
on.
That's a that's a greatquestion.
I'm actually really gratefulthat you see there's something
there around immersion.
I mean it's in the name, rightGlobal immersion.
It's in the pores of our souls,like the practice of
intentional displacement intoenvironments where we had no
answers and we have power andinfluence because of our social

(35:57):
location, as both of us, beingwhite, tall, eloquent it in a
way where the outcome arerelationships of costly
solidarity, where suddenlysuffering is shared Like I.
I.
I not just am aware of the waysin which I've contributed to
this, but we are in a kind ofrelationship with you where your
pain is my pain.
Now I can't look away anymore,I can't not be deployed by you.

(36:17):
That's what I mean by costlysolidarity.
Nothing has ever been moretransformative in my life, and I
think we see this inincarnation itself.
I mean, if God put on flesh anddisplaced God's self into
relationships of costlysolidarity and invites us to do

(36:37):
likewise, maybe there'ssomething in the pedagogy or the
method of immersion that weneed to pay close attention to.
I think the last thing I'll sayon this, for now at least, is,
like the, I also think that inthe early days we probably
overestimated what immersioncould do.

(36:58):
And what I mean by that is, youknow, we probably imagined that
if we just immerse a group of USAmerican leaders into Israel
and Palestine, if we immersethem into the borderlands
between San Diego and Tijuana,if we immerse together into the
trenches of the continuedstruggle for Black liberation in
the American Deep South andother places around our country,

(37:21):
if we immerse people there,then the kind of transformation
that will be necessary willoccur in the course of the
immersion.
But what we've learned overtime, chris, is that immersion
is transformative in that itawakens us to the question who
must we become?
I think immersion is awakening.

(37:43):
That's the potency, that's thetransformative potency of an
immersion.
It's like an immersion bringsus to the precipice of the next
level of transformation and wehave to then step off the
precipice into the great beyond,fueled less by the question

(38:05):
what do I do?
And more by the question whomust I become?
And so, in everything thatglobal immersion does, we are
immersive through and through.
There's not a single thing thatwe do that isn't immersive,
because it opens the pores ofthe souls of people and gets
them to the place where they'reasking the question who must I
become?
When they're there Now we cancompanion you into the

(38:28):
transforming journey of what youdo, you know.
And so that's why, and and thenthe last thing, last thing I
guess I'll say is it's, it's inthe immersion that the
relationships develop with thepeople who, like the solutions
to what plague them and theirpeople have actually been

(38:51):
germinating in their souls forgenerations.
We just haven't been closeenough and present enough to
listen.
And it's only in immersionwhere those relationships start
to get brokered.
And then immersion thattransforms immersion into like
an event or a project, into ahabit, into a way of life.
So that's why we call immersionthe second practice of everyday

(39:13):
peacemaking.
Displacing ourselves intorelationships of costly
solidarity becomes a rhythm ofour life.

Osheta Moore (39:20):
It's work with, we work with leaders, we work with
people who are already doingthe work of peacemaking.
We are working with people whoare creating immersive

(39:42):
experiences for others and so tobe able to do this for them, to
create a space for them to pullout of, the pull away from the
rhythms that pull at them, thatmaybe cause stress, that keeps
them from that creativelygenerative space to where the
thing that's been germinating inthem hasn't been able to make

(40:03):
it up, because you're likedealing with emails and progress
reports and hiring and da, da,da like to pull them out of that
.
And then also there's just likea humanness, like a, a human
connection and vulnerability andlike realness that happens when
you are exploring some placenew with other people.

(40:24):
Like I tripped and fell on thesidewalk while we were walking
and that's like something that Ihad to like do in front of
other people and I got helped upand you know, and people are
like, oh, I'm a night person, Igo out, you get to experience
like their humanity and that.
Or like I'm an indoor person andI'm gonna stay at the

(40:44):
restaurant with three otherwomen and just chat, because
we'd rather just be here in this, like there is a, there's a
unique way of being with othersthat reminds you of your
humanity and like the richnessand fullness of life that keeps
you in this work.
It pulls you out of your rhythm, that pulls you into, like the
minutia of peacemaking andleadership, where you can kind

(41:06):
of just be there.
And then we as leaders, jaronand I and Maggie we create this
for you, like we tried very hardto cover as many of the
logistics and make it easy foryou to just show up, step into
that place and just let yoursoul and your mind just be
curious for 10 days together.

Chris Nafis (41:24):
Yeah, and that last part was one of the best parts
of the trip for sure.
I mean, we had so manyconversations of like man, it's
so great we don't have to, wejust get to go where they tell
us to go eat, like we're justgoing to go eat lunch where they
picked and we're just going todo that.
You know, because so many of usare the ones that are usually
responsible, whether it's infamily life or in church life or
organizational life, we're theones responsible for planning

(41:45):
everything.
It's really nice to be off thehook, which is maybe this is
maybe less of a dynamic there.
But I think there's alsosomething about getting into
someone else's conflict that'skind of foreign and far away
from yours.
That really illuminates theconflict in your own backyard

(42:09):
because you can see things therethat you can't see elsewhere.
So, like I've sometimeswondered if some of the stuff
that you know the currentadministration was doing, if we
just describe that and place itsomewhere in some faraway
country, if people would be like, oh no, that's not OK, we
shouldn't be, they shouldn't bedoing that, that's like an
authoritarian leader trying tocome in and take over.
If people could see itdifferently because they can see

(42:30):
it somewhere else.
You know what I mean and I feellike you know.
For us it was Belfast and seeingthe dispute between you know,
the Republicans and the man I'mon the spot, I'm blinking on
just the Protestant Catholicdivide and the way that
community is so divided overpolitics and whose land is this
and whose heritage belongs hereand all those kinds of things.

(42:52):
It just kind of like brought tolight some of the conflicts
that are happening here and howwe talk to each other and the
potential future that we havehere.
There's something reallypowerful in that also just
having that escape and beingable to like enter into someone
else's thing and come back andsee your own thing with fresh
eyes.

Jer Swigart (43:08):
That's right.
I think too it's.
You know, when you're over in aplace like Northern Ireland and
you're, you're exploring thereality of sectarian violence
that is deeply fueled byChristian theology.
There are few places on theplanet right now that are more
relevant for us as US Americanleaders who are dealing with

(43:30):
partisan divides that areequally informed by theologies,
and this notion of God is makinga world in a way that I want
God to make it.
So I think that you bring up areally important point, chris,
that it's in immersion.
It's phenomenal to be in a spacelike Northern Ireland, where
these folk are living in apost-conflict society.

(43:54):
I wonder if they would use thesame language to describe their
experience.
Granted, the violence and thebombings and the terrorism
coming from both sides hassubsided drastically, but the
peace in Northern Ireland is atenuous peace.
It continues to require people,fueled by their faith, to move
toward one another with thetools to heal rather than win

(44:17):
Right.
But then, when you're, whenyou're sitting with them like we
got to be there for you know,um, nearly eight full days in
this place when they are theones looking at us as us
Americans, saying we are reallyconcerned for you and for your
people and your land, and hereare some of the things that have
been helpful for us, that wewant to impart to you as you

(44:41):
think about allowing your faithto be the high-octane fuel of
your restorative leadership,rather than fueling more
injustice.
Like wow, we have colleagueswho have lived a future that it

(45:03):
seems like our country is movingtoward, who now are coaches for
us, moving us back into thetrenches of the front lines of
our own conflicts with lessonsthat they've learned.
What a gift.
That only happens withimmersion.

Chris Nafis (45:18):
It's a gift and a bit of a wake up call, because
we heard that a lot on the trip.
We would introduce ourselves topeople and they'd be like, oh,
you're coming from America,meanwhile there's riots
happening 20 minutes away in theplace that we are and they're
concerned about our place.
And it kind of wakes you up tobe like, oh no, the things that
we're going through these arepretty serious conflict, and

(45:44):
when we're seeing con likeconflict, that is sort of uh,
that has an absence of likeovert violence but is still
there, like being able to seethat there and being able to
recognize like, oh, that is kindof what we're going through
here.
Um, was, there was somethingvery profound about that.

Osheta Moore (45:55):
sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off no, I was
just gonna just going to say Iwas curious how that landed for
you, because I felt the same wayof like for me hearing other
people say, oh my gosh, america,like, wow, like it was actually
oddly comforting to be to knowthat like we're not alone.
American exceptionalism makesus think like we're like we're

(46:18):
it, we're not alone.
American exceptionalism makesus think like we're like we're
it, we're not alone.
But I was really curious howthat landed for you when that
came up so many times.

Chris Nafis (46:26):
For me.
Yeah, it was.
I mean, it was again like.
It was like oh yeah, we I thinkthis whole immersion and the
people that we brought in andtalked to that are doing
analysis of you know, kind oflike sociological analyses of
things.
You know, it's just kind oflike see this get kind of
freaked out, do the internetfreak out thing that everybody's

(47:02):
doing, doom scroll for a minuteand then go back to regular
life and just forget all of it.
It can't be that bad Things aregoing to work out and to kind
of be like no, we actually needto take the divides in our
society very seriously, becausethey are serious.
They're going to have very realconsequences for us ourselves,
for our kids and the nextgenerations.
So I guess that's how I I tookit.

(47:26):
It was like, yeah, we gotta, wegotta wake up.
We can't just kind of likeassume that somehow it's all
just going to work out because,like, we're the ones that are
called to make it work.
You, know what I mean, if not us, then who's going to do it?

Jer Swigart (47:39):
Yeah, yeah, if not us, then who's going to do it?
Yeah, yeah, and I mean you lookat that conflict in Northern
Ireland and you have two peoplegroups who cloistered with
people who thought just likethem and believed just like them
and were allegiant inparticular ways and they wanted
to build the world that theywanted and they convinced

(47:59):
themselves that that wouldrequire building enough power to
crush the opposition.

Chris Nafis (48:03):
Yeah.

Jer Swigart (48:04):
And they did it in the name of God, yeah, and they
claimed it as an act offaithfulness, literally killing
their kin in the name of God, asthough God blesses these things
.
God blesses these things.
And you know, in here, in ourown country, you've got
Republicans and Democrats,you've got progressives and

(48:24):
conservatives, who arecloistered up in groups of
people who think just like them,and they want the world that
they want, and they believe thatthe only way that they're going
to get it is by building enoughpower and crushing their
opposition, and they have atheology to justify it.
They see it as righteousnessand as faithfulness.
When you know, the imaginationthat we're trying to evoke in

(48:45):
all of us is this idea that weneed each other.

Chris Nafis (48:48):
Yeah.

Jer Swigart (48:49):
That even Jesus.
You know the community thatJesus built involved mortal
enemies.
They hated each other.
I mean, peter and Matthew grewup in the same tiny village.
They hated each other.
I mean, peter and Matthew grewup in the same tiny village.
They hated each other.
And so if Jesus is forging acommunity of ideological others,
irritants and enemies andthat's the way we're going to

(49:11):
usher in the world that God ismaking, maybe we need to take
that seriously.
And I think that was some ofthe when you're sitting with,
like a Harold Good who createdthe conditions for the peace
accords to be signed in NorthernIreland.
That's what he's saying to us.
Like you, bring your mortalenemy around a table If so long
as don't don't place yourself inunwise danger.

(49:31):
But like, how do we use thetools that are in our hands to
do some of the more contagious,unlikely work of bridging across
difference?
That feels like more in the wayof Jesus than dominating people
.

Chris Nafis (49:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know we got to wrap here in asecond.
I wanted to ask one lastquestion, if you all have time
for it, Give me one bit of fruitthat you feel has come out of
your work over the last severalyears with global immersion.
One, one thing that that maybewas an unexpected like wow, this
came from what we did.
I know there's probably morethan one.

Jer Swigart (50:16):
I mean I could.
I could tell dozens of stories,like I think, about two of our
peace fellows who are pastors ata church in Bend, oregon, who
guided their congregation on ajourney toward becoming the
first gun decommissioning sitein Central Oregon.
Not because they wereanti-Second Amendment, but
because there was an attemptedmass shooting in their, in their

(50:39):
city and um, and they began torecognize that there were people
, um burdened with gun ownershipin their city, that, um, that
didn't have a creative option,and so, um, they became a gun
decommissioning center, um, sothat they could uh, people could
turn in their guns anddecommission them and then
transform them into garden tools.

(51:01):
You know, it's like that's thekind of beauty that I would like
, like things are happening likethat that I never could have
imagined.
Or there are books and thereare podcasts.
There's a one of our peacefellows, katie Calvert, in
Alabama, is doing a public artdisplay right now where she's

(51:21):
got a blue chair and a red chairand a video camera and an
opportunity for people who areideological, others to sit down
and have a conversation andrediscover each other's humanity
.
You have folk who are buildingimmersive programs in their own
cities to raise up peacemakersin their cities for their cities
.
There are people like you,chris, like you are the fruit of

(51:43):
what's happening here, somebodywho came in skeptical and a bit
cynical, wondering about all ofthis and recognizing.
Well, I feel like I may berediscovering a faith that's
worth my life and and it's theway that it's rejuvenated some
of your life, love andleadership in in in fueling the

(52:04):
beautiful work, especiallyaround around trauma, that
you're doing in San Diego.
Like that it's.
I could tell you 56 differentstories, not to mention the
hundreds and hundreds of othersof people who have interacted
with mentioned, the hundreds andhundreds of others of people
who have interacted with um,with our programming.
You know, people whoseimaginations have woken up, uh,

(52:24):
and are now deploying the toolsin their hands and all sorts of
creative and collaborative waysto to cultivate peace and
peacemakers around the country.

Osheta Moore (52:32):
Yeah, I would say, um, peacemaking is really
lonely.
The eagerness, the earnestnessof our cohort members and our

(53:04):
peace fellows to be with eachother and to make room and space
with each other and to playwith each other and to partner
with each other, like I wassurprised that we did.
What we created or what we'recreating together is not just a
like training ground, um, and aplayground for peacemakers, but
it's community and it's thatbeing held and seen as beloved.

(53:29):
And when we were creating aunique expression of the beloved
community.
And I just didn't expect that,because so much of my
peacemaking training has beenand formation has been like the
outcome, focus, like what are wedoing in the world, and not
like who are we becoming againand who like what?
Who are we becoming?

(53:49):
This is why we, at thebeginning of our time together,
we said we're going to name thisspace and this time, like this
is what we're doing.
And I just didn't.
You know, it was a good ideathat Jer and I had a few years
ago to like do these covenantsand like name this space and
like it felt very woo, woospiritual director for me, like
yeah, I get to show up as like aodd peacemaker with Jer, but

(54:10):
like really seeing how that hasbloomed into this community of
people who genuinely care abouteach other is something that I
did not expect at all and it'swhy I say like this is one of my
favorite things that I get todo as a part of like building a
life for me and my family andusing my gifts as a peacemaker

(54:31):
is because I it's not about whatwe do, it's about who we are
together.

Chris Nafis (54:36):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, we belong to each otherand we need each other, and
that's the I mean.
I came in hungry for thatcommunity and I feel like I'm
coming out richer for it becauseI have all these new friends
and people, including you twoand others that now are part of
my, my larger community.
So it's just not quite solonely.
So thank you all for your work,Thanks for all you do.
Any any last word before weshut it down?

(54:57):
All right?
Well, I'm very grateful to knoweach of you and again, thank
you for the time and for justall that you do to pour into the
leaders around the country andaround the world.
Really, Blessings to you.

Jer Swigart (55:13):
And to you, man.

Chris Nafis (55:14):
I may see you, I think, maybe next week, I don't
know.
Well, I'll see you, I thinkmaybe next week.
I don't know.
Well, I'll see you sometime atsome fellowship soon.