July 22, 2025 • 40 mins
The sound of a hammer striking hot metal echoes across a church parking lot as something remarkable unfolds—a deadly weapon transforms into a tool for growing food. This is the Guns to Gardens movement, and in this powerful conversation with volunteer Dave Creel, we explore how unwanted firearms become symbols of peace and new life.
Dave walks us through the practical mechanics of these community events, where safety officers dismantle guns according to ATF guidelines before blacksmiths and woodworkers transform the components into garden trowels, spades, and works of art. The symbolism is profound—objects designed for destruction becoming instruments of cultivation. "From things that take life to things that cultivate life," as Dave beautifully puts it.
What makes this conversation particularly compelling are the personal stories. Dave shares how the Uvalde school shooting, coming just after his child's birth, propelled him into action. He reflects on his lifelong proximity to gun violence—from a middle school friend who nearly took his life with his father's gun to hearing a hundred rounds fired at his neighborhood park where his children play. These aren't isolated incidents; they reflect an American reality where firearms are the leading cause of death for children and teens, and a surprisingly high number of us personally know someone who's been shot.
The Guns to Gardens movement offers more than symbolic transformation—it provides practical solutions for people who inherit unwanted firearms or no longer wish to keep them. One woman brought five loaded guns to an event after her husband's passing, having no idea how to safely dispose of them. The events create space for people to share their stories of trauma and find healing through creative transformation.
Though the project has faced pushback from those who view it as politically charged, Dave emphasizes that their mission transcends politics. Inspired by the biblical image of beating swords into plowshares, volunteers approach their work as a tangible expression of faith and nonviolence. They're motivated not by political agendas but by a vision of communities freed from the fear that drives our relationship with guns.
Ready to transform objects of fear into symbols of hope in your community? Check out Raw Tools online to discover how you can get involved in this growing movement of creative peacemaking.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome back to the Current.
This is Pastor Chris Naphis,and today I'm excited because I
got to go on this incredibletrip to Northern Ireland that
church folks have heard me talkabout.
It was an immersion trip intothe Troubles in Belfast and
training in peacemaking,specifically to become a peace
fellow who's doing the work ofpeacemaking.
And on that trip I got to meeta bunch of amazing people.
(00:20):
I'm going to hope to bring abunch of them on the podcast,
but the first one is today.
His name is Dave Creel.
He's a new friend who is avolunteer for the Guns to
Gardens Project, which is amovement that's happening all
over the country where peopleare bringing in unwanted
firearms, chopping them up,melting them down, carving the
wood and turning them intogarden tools and works of art.
(00:43):
It's inspiring work, it'sprofoundly symbolic and we get
to kind of dive into it in thepodcast today.
I hope you'll enjoy hearingabout it and feel inspired to do
some work of peacemakingyourself.
Here it is.
Well, hey, dave, it's reallyfun to get to spend some time
(01:14):
with you in Northern Ireland andso grateful you agreed to come
and spend some time with us hereon the podcast.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So Guns to Gardens is your thing, is your project,
and I was just saying thisbefore we hit record that, like
everybody that heard the Guns toGardens thing on our trip and I
just was mentioning it toRachel, my wife everybody's ears
perk up.
It's like such a cool concept.
Could you just like tell usabout it a little bit, like
how'd you get involved and whatdo you do?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, sure.
So Guns to Gardens is actually.
It's part of a nationalmovement of volunteers that are
seeking to promote nonviolencein our country, and we're doing
that by taking unwanted firearmsand transforming them into
things like garden tools and art.
So symbols of peace, you couldsay, from things that take life
(02:04):
to things that cultivate life.
That's kind of one of ourmottos.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
That's so cool.
So how did you stumble intothis project specifically?
Did you start this organizationor was this something going on
and you jumped in?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
No, I definitely did not start it.
I would say I'm just avolunteer.
I helped stand up one of theevents in Bend, oregon, but this
is something that's been goingon for quite some time and if
you were to Google Guns toGardens, you'll see a bunch of
different cities pop up afterthat Google prompt, and that's
because it's happening kind ofall around the nation.
And I would say one of thebiggest drivers of it has been
(02:40):
an organization called Raw Toolsand that's led by Mike Martin.
Him and Shane Claiborne wrote abook called Beating Guns, which
I highly recommend to anyoneinterested in this topic.
But they're the ones kind ofdriving this idea of, hey, let's
take some, let's take some gunsand let's turn them into some
symbols of peace.
Let's get guns off the streetsthat people don't want.
In America we have more gunsthan people, or at least close
(03:02):
to it, which is just wild right.
And let's get some of those outof the streets and let's turn
them into something creative,channel them into something
creative, which is also acathartic and meaningful process
for a lot of people, especiallysince guns carry so much
emotion.
There's so many stories behindthem, stories of trauma, stories
of hurt, and you know so thatthere's a lot of reasons for
(03:26):
people to kind of see what we'redoing and get involved in it.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean there's so many layersto it too, because there's like
some practical sides of thingsof just like there are guns out
there that nobody wants aroundand you're just practically
turning guns into something elsethat's useful, and there's like
also like the symbolic layer oflike how meaningful this is,
and then, like you said, thecathartic layer of the stories
behind the guns.
I mean, first, could you justlike, what do you do?
(03:53):
Like where do you get the guns?
How do you?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
destroy them.
Walk us through?
Yeah, absolutely so.
The way that we did it in Bend,oregon, through a church called
Antioch Antioch Church, wasthat we held an event.
It would be similar to abuyback event, except it's not a
buyback.
What we do is we actuallyinvite people that no longer
want to own weapons to come tothe church parking lot on a
specific day and theyessentially they bring their
(04:17):
weapons in the trunk of theircar unloaded.
We have safety officers that areon site, that are trained in
firearm handling, that will takethe guns out of the back of the
, dismantle them there bycutting through the actual
firearm, through the receiver ofthe gun, which kind of runs
(04:47):
behind the trigger, to make surethat it's completely dismantled
and can't be used.
So it's a process of dismantlingthat actually follows ATF
guidelines, and we then cut thegun into about three different
parts and we pass the weaponsinto a bucket.
At that point the gun is nolonger owned by the person.
They pass it off to us as scrapmetal, since they haven't left
(05:09):
the premises.
There's no transfer ofownership, which I think is a
big reason people will takeissue with these events.
They think that we'retransferring ownership of
weapons without going throughthe proper process.
But what we actually do is weinvite them to stay there while
we chop up the gun and once it'sno longer a usable firearm,
it's essentially junk metal andthen they're free to leave and
(05:32):
we take those parts and we turnthem into garden tools and art
and other fun things.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, man, the legal side.
There's so many things you justdon't even think about, like
yeah, because these are likeregistered gun owners most of
the time, probably.
I mean, does it matter ifsomeone has like an unregistered
gun or like a gun they boughtillegally or something Like?
What do you do with that?
You?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
know we'll chop up anything you bring to us.
That's just kind of our policyas a church not speaking for the
church, I should say as part ofthe Guns to Gardens movement.
What we're there to do is justto provide a place for you to
get rid of guns that you nolonger want, and so any gun that
is not wanted we will, um, wewill dismantle, um, and we've
(06:12):
dismantled everything from arifle from the 18, 18 thirties
um up to an Uzi, uh, and youknow it's.
We'll take any gun out of thecommunity, um, because we see
all guns as as potential youknow, potentially unsafe if
(06:32):
they're not properly stored andproperly cared for.
So this isn't to shame anybodythat is a gun owner is a safe
gun owner.
But there are a lot of guns outthere that are unsafely stored,
a lot of guns that are sittingaround houses.
Some are loaded.
We've had people bring guns toour events that are loaded
because they don't know how toproperly unload them.
Um, they were gifted to them.
So we're there to to checkthose weapons properly and then
(06:53):
disarm them.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I mean it is.
So we we found in our, thefirst place we rented in San
Diego.
We were helping kind of cleanup this house for this guy that
had lived there, as his mom orhis aunt had lived there for
tons of years I don't know, shewas like 96 or something but we
were cleaning out the closetwhere I think he was getting
their carpet replaced, andunderneath this like loose
carpet, there was like a littlegun.
It was like this tiny littlehandgun and, um, we're just like
(07:17):
what do we do?
What do you do with it?
You know, like we didn't knowwhat to do with it.
We ended up giving it to thelandlord and letting him deal
with it.
But you can see situations wherepeople would like just come
into ownership of a gun thatthey don't want or feel like
they're all of a sudden thingsare unsafe or they realize that
they don't want to.
They don't want this to be apart of their life.
But then what do you do withthe gun?
(07:38):
So you guys are helping solvelike a real life problem, right?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It is.
And you know, something thatactually surfaced for us after
the first event we did was that,that service, that that kind of
solving a problem for thecommunity, that that isn't.
It's not easy to get rid of agun, right, like you were just
saying.
One woman came to our eventwhose late husband had left her
with five guns after he passedand she didn't want them.
(08:04):
She didn't know how to use themor safely store them.
So she brought five weapons toour event and all five of them
were loaded, and so we saw thatas a service to unload them and
to dismantle them there, and Ithink that we prevented a
possible tragedy from occurringin her home.
You know, whether that be withgrandchildren running around or
(08:25):
or just someone who sees a gunand thinks it's unloaded and
plays around with it, you know,adults can make those mistakes
too.
Um so uh, we were very happy toget those out of um, out of her
home for her.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, I.
So this is a question maybe outof ignorance or something,
cause I'm not like a gun person,but like what are guns made at?
Like what kind of metal is itand what?
What do you have to do Causeyou like melt, melt down the
metal parts and make actualtools out of them?
Yeah, and I mean, like whatkind of metal is it?
Recording the video?
Here's a.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Here's an example of a fire, uh, of a firearm, turned
into a garden tool here.
Um, but yeah, they're alldifferent sorts of metal, you
know, and steel and wood,depending on you know the
manufacturer and you know some.
Some guns have a lot of plasticincluded in them too,
especially, you know, cheaperones.
So we, we had a blacksmith inour congregation in Bend that
(09:17):
that actually had a mobile forgeon site and, would you know,
would melt the heat, the heat,the steel, and pound it into,
you know, the spade.
Uh, myself I'm a woodworker,and so I would actually take the
gunstocks and turn them on thelathe to get the handles, um,
which was fun to kind of jointhe two together and make
something new.
So, yeah, it's a really fun andcreative process to to take
(09:40):
something that has so muchpotential for harm and turn it
into something that you know youcan use out in the garden.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, it's so cool.
I mean, and you're showing itfor those who are watching on
YouTube you could see the spadethat he was holding up and or
the trowel.
But if you're not like, wherecan people go and Google just
raw tools or where could they gocheck out what you've made?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, for ones that raw tools has made.
You can look at rawtoolsorg.
They actually sell them ontheir website For local churches
that are involved in this.
Oftentimes they'll sell themlocally or at craft fairs and
things of that nature orconferences nonviolence
conferences, yeah.
But I would start byresearching Raw Tools a whole
(10:21):
host of great things thatthey've made and and they've
spotlighted some amazing artiststoo that have have gone above
and beyond, making some really,really amazing art.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Have you used the tools Like are they legit?
You know what I mean.
How do they compare to like aprofessionally made shovel or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You know I ours actually sits on a on a shelf in
our, our home, just kind of asas a symbol of something that we
can speak to when, when peopleask about the work that we do.
But some people do use them inthe garden.
So I'm not I'm not sure howthey compare.
I would say, you know, this onefeels pretty sturdy.
So I think it could, I think itcould plant some things.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That's so cool and they're beautiful too, like
they're, you know, like you said, you've got artists involved in
making them, and so, again,like I just have so many
questions, like so many thingsthat I want to know about it,
but how many of these are youdoing, like, how many guns are
you getting off of the streetand out of homes and give me
some sense of like scale andstuff?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, so I'll kind of speak a little bit to my story
a little bit.
So a couple of years ago mywife and I got involved in this
in Bend, oregon, and we were apart of two events there.
And then we have sincerelocated to Portland Oregon
where we're working on standingup a Portland chapter of this
(11:39):
movement.
But the church in Bend hascontinued and had four
successful events.
So far.
They've dismantled well over100 weapons, I think over 120,
probably at this point.
The first event, we were hopingmaybe four people showed up,
you know, with guns.
But by the time we wrapped upour morning prayer session, you
know, before the event, therewas already a line of cars
(12:01):
around the block and we ended updismantling over 70 weapons.
And many people had multipleweapons that they were ready to
dismantle, ready to get out oftheir homes.
Many people were really thankfulfor this, just as a service,
because it's just again not aneasy thing to get rid of.
It's really intimidating theidea of if I want to sell it,
(12:21):
then I got to go through theproper channels.
I don't want to sell itillegally because then I don't
know what it's going to be usedfor.
I don't want to take it to apawn shop.
I can't sell it online, youknow.
I mean you're walking throughall the things.
I guess it's just easier tostick in the closet and so
having this anonymous eventwhere you could just show up and
we dismantle it for you and youcan kind of just have that
(12:43):
weight off your shoulders for alot of people was they were
really grateful for it yeah,yeah, that's so cool and you
know, obviously you mentionedearlier, there's like a gun per
person in the united states, soit's going to take a lot of uh
chop saws to get rid of like allof the guns or something.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
But I do think there's something deeply
symbolic about, like, whatyou're doing.
Um, I mean, it's, it's part ofour uh scriptural heritage.
You know, like beating, youknow beating uh weapons into
plowshares and all that and um,yeah, well, like what do you?
Like?
It's like a witness, right?
So what's the message that youfeel like people hear, that you
want people to hear from, fromthe project?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
yeah, I appreciate you asking that, because you're
right in that we're not going tochop up every gun in America
and that's not really the pointof what we're trying to do,
right?
We're not.
We're not claiming that this isgoing to even really make a
dent in the number of guns thatare out there, kind of putting a
(13:44):
stake in the ground, saying,hey, there's another way.
And we're doing this inspiredby the nonviolent message of
Jesus.
And you know what does theBible say more than anything?
And that's be not afraid.
Fear drives so many people oneither side of this issue.
You have people that are buyingguns out of fear and people
that are afraid to go to placesbecause of guns, right, and you
have everybody is afraid,everybody's afraid, and reacting
(14:06):
to this in different ways,reacting to this issue in
different ways.
It's driving people to buy moreweapons.
It's exacerbating the issue,right?
Some people will say that theanswer to guns is more guns.
I had a friend online who postedafter seeing a news story that
made her afraid.
Who posted after seeing a newsstory that made her afraid, she
(14:28):
posted I think I'm going to gobuy a gun as a way to protect
her family.
And I tried to reason with her,with stats, right, because
there's so many stats that saywhy you shouldn't do that, why
you shouldn't bring a gun intoyour home.
You're more likely to introducean accident into your home than
to actually defend yourselffrom a harmful invader.
But it's when fear is drivingpeople.
(14:48):
You know how do you speak tothat and I think that we speak
to that through the gospelmessage.
You know through, through, youknow, the message of the Bible
of being not afraid.
You know of speaking to themabout Jesus and his.
You know his message ofnonviolence as well.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's amazing how much fear
drives like all sorts of things.
And, um, thinking about guns,you know well I mean, so it's
interesting.
We talked a little bit on thetrip about this, but, um, do you
find that it's people own gunsfor different reasons, like in
different places, so you kind ofmove from like a rural place to
an urban place and I feel likewe were, we talked a little bit
(15:25):
about just kind of thedifference in in sort of guns in
those different locations.
Um, do you find that, like fearis a driver in different ways
in different places?
Or I don't know, do you havewhat do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, um, where we were, uh,in bend, there's a lot of uh, a
lot of self-preservation mindset.
You know, especially, uh, peoplethat are maybe on uh, larger
pieces of land, kind of rancherculture, that want to make sure
that they're um, they'reprotecting their families,
protecting their space.
(15:58):
Um, but moving into a more urbanenvironment, um, you know, we
have, uh, you know, a houselesscrisis here in in in Portland,
um, a houseless crisis here inPortland, and there's actually a
rise or maybe I shouldn't say arise, but there is a lot of the
gun violence we see in the cityis actually amongst the
(16:19):
unhoused population, and you canthink about if you're living on
the street and you're trying tokeep yourself safe amidst all
the dangers that surround you.
You know, a gun, finding a gunor being given a gun seems like
an easy way to protect yourselfin that situation, when it
really could just drive you intomore harm and put yourself into
a more dangerous situation.
So there's lots of context here.
(16:41):
In Oregon, we also experience alot of suicide by gun, so, and
that's prevalent across the USas well, so that's a major issue
wrapped's prevalent across theU?
S as well, uh, so that that's amajor issue, wrapped up in in
the gun violence epidemic aswell.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting Like we, my wife and
I, lived out on a ranch out inHamul, which for non San Diego
people that's like out in EastCounty, uh, you know, 30, 40
miles East of the city, and wewere like two miles down a dirt
road on this 45 acre ranch.
We're the only ones you knowand you kind of realize like no,
(17:13):
no one's going to make it hereto help if I need help, you know
, and I think like urban peopledon't really think about that
reality.
For people that live kind ofout in the sticks a little bit,
um, but even, but so you can seehow fear drives.
And then I feel like in theurban context like we have,
we're kind of all on top of eachother.
And then you, I mean you fearpeople, right, like there's
(17:35):
people everywhere.
But I think like it's helpfulto kind of get some of those
stats of to realize like, okay,I feel like I'm protecting
myself with this thing.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
The odds are I'm actually putting myself in some
danger because I'm puttingsomething very dangerous like
right around me right, yeah, Imean, guns are the the leading
cause of death for children andteens in america, which is, I
mean, if you just sit with thatfor a minute, like that's,
that's just terrifying, right,you know I'm a parent, I know
you're a parent as well likethat's the reality of our, our
nation.
(18:05):
And introducing, when you thinkabout a gun, right, just its
presence increases thelikelihood that it will be used.
If a gun is not there, it can'tbe used.
So if a gun is in the home anda situation arises where you are
afraid, then you have theopportunity to go get that
(18:26):
weapon and use it.
If you don't have a gun, thenyou can't go get it, you can't
use it, and you know, themajority of the time that gun
isn't actually necessary I wouldsay, more than the majority of
the amount of time that thestats are pretty staggering.
I think of the likelihood thatyou would actually need a weapon
and if you're safely storingthat gun, the chances of you
(18:48):
logically being able to go getit and use it in the time that
you would need it, they don'treally make sense, which then
drives people to keep themunsafely stored in the event of
an outcome which is unlikely,which again opens up lots of
possibility for accidents andharm to take place.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
So yeah, yeah, and you don't even think about.
I mean, I feel like we talkabout guns and you think about
people who are victims of gunviolence.
But the other side is alsopretty awful, like, if you think
about you know someone, youfeel like someone's breaking
into your house.
You grab your gun, you bring itout there, even if you don't
fire it, like that's atraumatizing experience for
everyone involved.
Let's say, you actually doshoot somebody.
(19:29):
I mean that's like a horriblething also.
You know, you got to look atthat the rest of your life?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, I don't think enough people really really take
that to its natural conclusion,right, like if so, someone
breaks into your home and thenyou kill them, right, and you
have to then live with the factthat you killed that person.
And if they're breaking intoyour home, are they really
breaking into your home toactually harm you?
(19:53):
And you know the likelihood ofthat.
I mean that that does happen.
I'm not going to pretend thatit doesn't happen or hasn't
happened before, but themajority of situations where
people are breaking into homesare not to murder people.
Where people are breaking intohomes or not to murder people,
right, it's theft, or you know?
(20:16):
You look at some of the otherreasons people might break in.
Are those capital crimes?
Are those worthy of death?
Are those worthy of deathwithout due process?
Are you going to play judge andjury in the moment and actually
end their life over this thing?
It's pretty weighty to thinkabout putting yourself in that
scenario and I totallyunderstand the mindset of
wanting to protect your family,but I also I also think not
(20:36):
enough people are really kind oftaking that to its its end and
thinking, well, I will killsomeone you know and live with
that.
You know I'll be ready to killsomeone, that's just.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
It's a pretty wild notion to me, but right, maybe
not others yeah, I mean, whetheryou face like a legal
consequence or not, like whetheryou get convicted of murder or
something, or you get, you know,there's all these stand your
ground laws and stuff, likethat's kind of one side of it,
like you might actually go toprison if you shoot somebody.
But even if you don't like,there's just the weight of it
and yeah, I mean pretty gunviolence is just awful, you know
(21:11):
, there's just it's just awfulin every way.
How's the response been Like?
Do you feel like people haveresponded Well, have you got any
pushback, or you know?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
bend.
We we did receive quite a bitof of pushback, um, but I would
say we received a lot of uh, alot of gratitude from people
that participated in the eventand we received a lot of
pushback for people that feltlike this was threatening in
some way their freedom,threatened, threatening in some
way um, gun ownership or uh, youknow, was taking, was doing
something completely unnecessary.
They didn't like that.
A church was involved in it.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
That's interesting.
What do they say?
Why didn't they like a churchbeing involved in?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
it.
They felt like it was out ofplace, as if, like the
government was somehow, as ifthe church was reaching into
political territory, which Idon't necessarily fault that
line of thinking, because gunviolence has been politicized
Right, which is again, it seemsabsurd when we think about when
(22:14):
we actually think about gunviolence in America and how many
lives it affects.
But it's been so greatlypoliticized that any sort of
mention of guns or or evennonviolence, promoting
nonviolence, can be seen aspolitical, uh, if done.
So, you know, even if you'renot, even if you're not
(22:34):
necessarily mentioning, you know, a political candidate or or,
uh, a specific law, or it canjust be seen as a deeply
political and divisive issue.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, I mean to be fair.
Like it is a political issue,right Like it is, it is
political and I think thewhether it's like a something
that only one party should beconcerned with is a whole nother
issue, because it is apolitical issue that should
cross those like party linesthat you would think you know,
but it you know, everything isso polarized now that it seems
(23:07):
like it doesn't, but like itfeels like because of the weight
of like well, we all, you know,like we we haven't even really
talked about like the kinds ofgun violence that we're so used
to seeing on TV now with likethe mass shootings.
And you know, like my kids, Iremember the first time that I
heard that my kids had gonethrough you know like a lockdown
at school and like we didn't,we didn't have those when I was
(23:29):
a kid and just like the weightof that.
You know there's certain onesthat just kind of hit people
there, like the Uvalde one was areally hard one for me.
It just hit different that massshooting.
But, like you, we have theselike horrific tragedies that
just kind of permeate our spirit, our mind, our politics.
Like the conversation, I feellike what you're doing in some
(23:52):
ways is meant to respond in kind.
You know what I mean.
Like it's meant to be somethingthat's symbolic, that's like
kind of visceral.
Do you feel like that's true,or would you say something
different?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah.
I would say that this feelslike a tangible way that we can
get involved in the issue andand it's so easy to, it's so
easy to just feel helpless inthis issue.
You know you mentioned Uvaldeand that was that was actually
the tipping point for me and mywife point for me and my wife,
(24:31):
my son had just been born.
He was, you know, a month oldmaybe when we saw the news of,
of the school shooting in Uvaldeand that just we just sat there
saying what are we going to do?
You know, we're new parents andI'm holding my infant son and
saying, you know, how can we,how can this be the world that
we're bringing him into?
This wasn't what we grew upwith, right?
And what are we going to doabout it?
(24:53):
So this opportunity kind ofcame up.
Our church at the time said,hey, we want to go deeper into
this issue of gun violence.
And we they actually startedpartnering with raw tools and my
wife and I kind of said, hey,we'll, we'll help out.
Like this is an issue that'sdeeply important to us.
(25:14):
We've been talking about it fora while.
We want to know how we can help.
And the church graciously said,well, you know, you can help
out by helping lead it.
And so it ended up being anopportunity for us to get really
involved and get really steepedin this issue and help stand up
this event.
But I would say, you know, togive it a little bit more
context, I was thinking as wewere learning and growing in and
(25:37):
diving into this guns togardens movement, I was thinking
about my own journey and themoments that I've actually been
really proximate to gun violencethroughout my entire life,
without even thinking about it,because it's just part of our
culture.
Here, you know, I think back towhen I was in eighth grade and
a friend shared with me that hehe had grabbed his dad's gun.
(25:59):
He was very, very close tocommitting suicide and at the
last minute decided not to.
And how?
I didn't tell someone.
And I think I play the what ifgame.
You know what if he had gonethrough with it and I didn't
tell someone?
And I'm living with that Rightand thankfully he didn't.
But that's still.
I still sit with that, I stillthink about that Right, that
(26:20):
that that could have completelychanged the course of my life in
a split split second changedthe course of my life in a split
split second when I hadgraduated college.
Right the summer after Igraduated college, a classmate
of mine was in a movie theaterin Aurora, colorado, at the Dark
Knight movie theater or DarkKnight grand opening, and
someone opened fire.
(26:41):
And you know, during that massshooting I'm sure a lot of
people will remember that oneand she was really, really
wounded and wounded reallyterribly.
You, not long after, a familyfriend was at the Gilroy Garlic
Festival and had to cart awaywounded that were shot at that
mass shooting.
And then, you know, not thatlong ago, about a year ago, you
(27:01):
know, we live next to a reallygreat park here in Portland and
someone stepped out of a car andfired off a hundred rounds into
a crowd in a bunch of housesaround the park.
I mean, we heard it.
I was putting my kids down forbed and we heard this, like you
know, this booming a block awayfrom our home and thankfully no
one was killed in that one.
But they found a hundred, youknow, a hundred shells at the
(27:23):
park that my son plays at almostevery day and I think, wow, I
could have been walking my dogand hit by a straight bullet.
You know, and I don't feel likeI live in a dangerous
neighborhood, you know, oranything like that, it's just,
this is the culture we live inand I didn't even really think
about so many of those instanceswhen I got involved in this
movement Uh, you know I wasthinking about.
(27:45):
You know, uvalde was just sotragic and terrible for the
entire nation, for the, you know, for the whole world, just to
see that, witness it, and notthat long after Sandy Hook,
which, again, just like, is sopresent in everyone's mind,
right?
So we have these moments thatwhen we all think about it, like
how proximate we've been to gunviolence you know, 44 percent
(28:05):
of Americans, personally, knowsomeone that's been shot, either
accidentally or intentionally.
And you know there's two of uson the call.
I know I've known.
You know I've known someone,you know.
I mean, we're proving astatistic right there, right,
you know, and I'm not sure ofyour story, but you know, it's
just, it's insane to think thatthis is where we live, you know,
(28:25):
and that we're not all rollingup our sleeves to do something
about it.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of normalized, you know,
and that, yeah, if you justthink through your life, like
cause I'm now that you'veprompted me you know my, my aunt
, was accidentally shot when shewas very little by her little
brother who had access to a gunand they were playing and uh,
you know, like I've I don't knowI can list lots of times where
I've been proximate to it.
(28:51):
You know, we live in aneighborhood that has a lot, a
decent amount of gun violenceand you know we've had things
happen in our, our neighborhoodhere.
Uh, the FBI.
I woke up one morning hearing abig thump, thinking that one of
my kids fell out of uh, fell outof off a bunk bed or something
like that, and I like wentwandering around the house it
was like dusk or it was like a,not dust, it was like daybreak,
(29:12):
basically, like just before thesun was going to come up, and uh
saw some things going on on thestreet outside and the neighbor
cat a corner from us.
Uh, the FBI had broken downtheir door and it turned out
they were running guns and drugsout of that place.
They were doing a morning raidof you know that's like across
the street and I had had arun-in with one of the people
(29:34):
that was living there like twoweeks prior over a dog thing.
And I don't know you just youknow you can probably go through
your life and find lots oftimes when you're you're pretty
close to some something badhappening and right and do we
need to all wait until we're alldirect victims of it?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
right, you know to do something about it and and I,
yeah, it's wild, you know, justhearing your own, your stories
as well and and hearing how manytimes you've been, you've been
proximate to it, and I'm sureyou know um many of your
listeners will will, if theyexamine their lives, will feel
the same and be able to pinpoint, you know, moments where you
(30:12):
know we don't often connect itto like, oh, that was like a gun
violence moment, but they were,you know, and yeah.
So I think if we all kind ofreflect on that, we see that,
wow, this is really affectingeverybody.
This isn't just something we'reseeing on the news but, like,
many of us have these moments inour lives where and that could
(30:33):
have maybe it was really tragic,where it could have been really
, really tragic, and that'sreally scary to think about.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, I mean it's overwhelming and kind of like
you said, there's there is asense of like helplessness out
there with it, because you know,we mentioned of all day and
like my, I remember thathappened like at the end of the
school year it was the last dayof school for them, I think, and
our school year wasn't quiteover, and so I remember like
last day of school it was realfrightening, like man, what if
this is like a trend orsomething like you know, you
(31:02):
just kind of think differentabout it.
And there's like this sense ofand I mean we've we've mentioned
now I don't know how many six,seven mass shootings in this.
We could all list off like aton more and these things happen
all the time now.
But I think, thinking back to aprevious podcast episode that
we made, actually for peoplewho've been listening all along,
talk to Dr Brad Kelly, who's anOld Testament scholar, about
(31:24):
moral injury and the way thatlike feeling like are like we
were, things are out of controlfor us, that we are either been
forced to participate in thingsthat are sort of morally
egregious or that our leadersand like the systems we're part
of have failed us.
It can lead us into this placeof despair.
But having something good thatyou do can be so empowering and
(31:47):
like it can be so enlivening tolike what you're doing, dave,
like having this sense that likein this, in this small way,
like I know this isn't going toremove all the guns from the
neighborhood or even, you know,even from you know this little
block of houses that we're doingin the middle of you know
wherever the church is, but likeI can do something.
That's that kind of testifiesthat there is good in the world,
(32:10):
that we can turn somethingawful into something beautiful.
I mean it's just like apowerful message something awful
into something beautiful.
I mean it's just like apowerful message.
I don't know, you know I don'thave, like I don't know what to
ask on the on the end of that,but like I just really I love
what you're doing and it's soinspiring and like, yeah, it's
good.
I mean I hope you've had thoseresponses too.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
We have.
Yeah, I think we've seen a lotof people kind of take a step
back and say, wow, this issomething that is really unique
and such a positive way to getinvolved in this movement.
I think the other thing youknow as a follower of Jesus that
really makes me pursue this ata deeper level is that gun
violence is something thatpeople often hold very silently
(32:54):
right If they've experiencedsome sort of trauma or tragedy
in their life.
It's not something that peopleoften walk around talking about
freely.
Some, you know, some, may bemore willing to share their
stories, but these are reallyheavy experiences that people
have faced, and these events,these opportunities for people
(33:15):
to bring a weapon, a firearm,and have it dismantled, often
lead to people sharing theirstories as well.
And you know, as followers ofJesus, I think we're called to
to grow in greater proximity topeople's pain and to walk
through that with them, and so Ithink it allows us to to be uh
(33:37):
to go deeper in some of thosestories, um to allow healing to
take place, uh allow people toto share um what they've been
through and help them moveforward.
So this is just a small pieceof that.
You know, there's lots of.
There's lots of people doinggood work to bring about healing
, um, but this is just anotherway for us to to get involved,
(33:58):
um, and yeah, allow people to uhto experience some sort of of
healing or hope.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah for sure, I mean you can see that kind of the
cascading effect of an eventlike this.
You know every for every gun,uh, that gets taken out.
You know there's.
There's all these all thesekinds of down river effects of
of like the story, I mean eventhe story of like that person
gets to tell their theircommunity, like this is what I
did I went and just and broughtmy gun to this place and now
(34:27):
someone's using it as you know,a pitchfork or whatever you know
.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
um, you know there's you can see how, like, the
goodness of it just kind ofspreads beyond like the event
itself.
Yeah, absolutely there's.
I think that there's a lot, of,a lot of possibility for for
just great dialogue to that thisbrings up.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, Is it.
Is it hard to host these things?
Like how do how do you go aboutlike getting something like
that started If there's someonelistening and they're like I
want to start this where I amlike how to, how does that work
started if there's someonelistening and they're like I
want to start this, where I amLike, how to?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
how does that work?
Yeah, I, I think, um, the themost important thing you know
you need is an excitement for itas an enthusiasm for it,
because the logistics are allthings that can be worked out.
You know you need a space tohost it.
Um, you need some volunteersthat are willing um to to roll
up their sleeves and getinvolved.
But all of those things can canbe pretty readily found, you
(35:22):
know you just need someone tolead the event.
So I'm I'm happy to to work withanybody, uh, that wants to
stand this up in their owncontext.
And you know, there there'slike a little bit of equipment,
a little bit of funding that'sneeded to make an event happen,
but it's all fairly reasonable,I think, to to standing up an
event like this.
It just kind of takes a littlebit of a leap of faith knowing
that you're going to gosomewhere where people are going
to be willingly bringing awhole bunch of guns, and so
(35:45):
there's a little bit of that.
But knowing that people arebringing them because they no
longer want them, I think makesit worth it and and it's just a
way for us to step into thisissue and and yeah, just say I'm
going to choose to be notafraid, you know, and and live
into that.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
How many tools do you make pergun?
Just curious.
You know you can make a coupledepending on the type of weapon.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
but the type of firearm usually like a rifle
stock, I can cut into a couplehandles.
Type of firearm usually like arifle stock, I can cut into a
couple handles.
Um, and then you know,depending on the barrel size, if
it's a rifle, um, you know, youcan, you can make probably a
couple of spades out of it.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot oflike kind of extra scrap metal
and parts and things that that,uh, can't necessarily
necessarily be made into agarden tool like the one I
(36:33):
showed.
But, um, that's where artistscome in and metal workers and
they can make jewelry, they canmake.
I've seen people make kids toys.
I've seen, and this is whereyou know, if you go into a
rawtoolsorg, you can see some ofthe amazing things that people
have been making around thecountry that are, you know,
volunteers in this movement.
So it's it's really exciting tosee people get creative and and
to see people's imaginationsget sparked.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
So yeah, super cool.
So the question was kind of outof left field, but I was like I
was going to ask that earlier.
Um, uh, cool.
Well, I mean, like I said, Ilove, love what you're doing,
deeply appreciative of it, likethe witness of it is so cool and
I'm I'm really thankful you'vebeen able to, uh, you know,
share it a little bit at leastwith our folks.
I mean any other things thatyou want to tell us about, like
(37:14):
what this means to you or whatit means to the community that
you've been a part of, you know?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I think, at the end of the day, we live in a society
where gun violence is a majorissue and it's probably going to
be a major issue for some time,and this is the world that our
kids are growing up in.
And when my kids are older andthey say you know, what were you
doing about that?
And when my kids are older andthey say, you know, what were
you doing about that?
You know, I'll have an answerto that, you know, and I think
(37:40):
that applies to a lot ofdifferent issues, right, like,
not everyone can be involved inevery issue, but, but I think,
for for me, this is this is onethat I deeply care about, and I
think it's an example, I think,to my children of of trying to
make their world a better placeand trying to lead from, of of
trying to make their world abetter place, uh, and trying to
lead from a place of faith.
And, uh, knowing that we can't,we can't solve every problem,
(38:04):
but we can, we can take a standfor what we think is injustice,
uh, and this is just, um, my wayof of trying to live into that.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, Well, it's awesome You're doing good work.
Keep it up and yeah, man,blessings to you.
Thank you so much for coming onand for people listening.
Check him out.
He's got Instagram, Dave Creel.
What is it, Dave?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
just recommend everybody to follow Raw Tools,
since they're just doingincredible work as an
organization, and if you justsearch Guns to Gardens on
Instagram or online, you'll seehow this movement plays out
across the country, with lots ofamazing volunteers and churches
that are jumping in gettinginvolved.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, and I checked out Crew Creative before we did
this and there's some reallycool just really beautiful
images your workshop and some ofthe tools you've made, and then
you can click in certain spotsand see stories of some of the
events and see some of theactual uh forging of the, of the
tools from from the guns and uh, lots of cool stuff to check
out.
Yeah, thank you so much, daveand uh, if you're listening to
(39:09):
this, go give him a follow anduh, and give us a follow like
subscribe or whatever, and giveus some feedback.
Make a comment, let us know howyou're hearing these episodes.
One of the things that ourchurch has been talking about is
wanting to have a little more.
You know, we put these out sopeople who have trouble getting
in for a midweek engagement cankind of have a discipleship tool
(39:30):
.
But we want to see these bemore interactive.
So have a conversation withsomebody about what you heard
and tell them what you love,tell them what you hated, uh and
uh, and just have aconversation with somebody
especially another disciple ofJesus, um, about some of the
things you're hearing on here.
Um, all right, well, we'regoing to call it for today.
Thank you so much, dave, and uhblessings to you.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
Hi and welcome back to the Current.
This is Pastor Chris Naphis,and today I'm excited because I
got to go on this incredibletrip to Northern Ireland that
church folks have heard me talkabout.
It was an immersion trip intothe Troubles in Belfast and
training in peacemaking,specifically to become a peace
fellow who's doing the work ofpeacemaking.
And on that trip I got to meeta bunch of amazing people.
(00:20):
I'm going to hope to bring abunch of them on the podcast,
but the first one is today.
His name is Dave Creel.
He's a new friend who is avolunteer for the Guns to
Gardens Project, which is amovement that's happening all
over the country where peopleare bringing in unwanted
firearms, chopping them up,melting them down, carving the
wood and turning them intogarden tools and works of art.
(00:43):
It's inspiring work, it'sprofoundly symbolic and we get
to kind of dive into it in thepodcast today.
I hope you'll enjoy hearingabout it and feel inspired to do
some work of peacemakingyourself.
Here it is.
Well, hey, dave, it's reallyfun to get to spend some time
(01:14):
with you in Northern Ireland andso grateful you agreed to come
and spend some time with us hereon the podcast.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So Guns to Gardens is your thing, is your project,
and I was just saying thisbefore we hit record that, like
everybody that heard the Guns toGardens thing on our trip and I
just was mentioning it toRachel, my wife everybody's ears
perk up.
It's like such a cool concept.
Could you just like tell usabout it a little bit, like
how'd you get involved and whatdo you do?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, sure.
So Guns to Gardens is actually.
It's part of a nationalmovement of volunteers that are
seeking to promote nonviolencein our country, and we're doing
that by taking unwanted firearmsand transforming them into
things like garden tools and art.
So symbols of peace, you couldsay, from things that take life
(02:04):
to things that cultivate life.
That's kind of one of ourmottos.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
That's so cool.
So how did you stumble intothis project specifically?
Did you start this organizationor was this something going on
and you jumped in?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
No, I definitely did not start it.
I would say I'm just avolunteer.
I helped stand up one of theevents in Bend, oregon, but this
is something that's been goingon for quite some time and if
you were to Google Guns toGardens, you'll see a bunch of
different cities pop up afterthat Google prompt, and that's
because it's happening kind ofall around the nation.
And I would say one of thebiggest drivers of it has been
(02:40):
an organization called Raw Toolsand that's led by Mike Martin.
Him and Shane Claiborne wrote abook called Beating Guns, which
I highly recommend to anyoneinterested in this topic.
But they're the ones kind ofdriving this idea of, hey, let's
take some, let's take some gunsand let's turn them into some
symbols of peace.
Let's get guns off the streetsthat people don't want.
In America we have more gunsthan people, or at least close
(03:02):
to it, which is just wild right.
And let's get some of those outof the streets and let's turn
them into something creative,channel them into something
creative, which is also acathartic and meaningful process
for a lot of people, especiallysince guns carry so much
emotion.
There's so many stories behindthem, stories of trauma, stories
of hurt, and you know so thatthere's a lot of reasons for
(03:26):
people to kind of see what we'redoing and get involved in it.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean there's so many layersto it too, because there's like
some practical sides of thingsof just like there are guns out
there that nobody wants aroundand you're just practically
turning guns into something elsethat's useful, and there's like
also like the symbolic layer oflike how meaningful this is,
and then, like you said, thecathartic layer of the stories
behind the guns.
I mean, first, could you justlike, what do you do?
(03:53):
Like where do you get the guns?
How do you?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
destroy them.
Walk us through?
Yeah, absolutely so.
The way that we did it in Bend,oregon, through a church called
Antioch Antioch Church, wasthat we held an event.
It would be similar to abuyback event, except it's not a
buyback.
What we do is we actuallyinvite people that no longer
want to own weapons to come tothe church parking lot on a
specific day and theyessentially they bring their
(04:17):
weapons in the trunk of theircar unloaded.
We have safety officers that areon site, that are trained in
firearm handling, that will takethe guns out of the back of the
, dismantle them there bycutting through the actual
firearm, through the receiver ofthe gun, which kind of runs
(04:47):
behind the trigger, to make surethat it's completely dismantled
and can't be used.
So it's a process of dismantlingthat actually follows ATF
guidelines, and we then cut thegun into about three different
parts and we pass the weaponsinto a bucket.
At that point the gun is nolonger owned by the person.
They pass it off to us as scrapmetal, since they haven't left
(05:09):
the premises.
There's no transfer ofownership, which I think is a
big reason people will takeissue with these events.
They think that we'retransferring ownership of
weapons without going throughthe proper process.
But what we actually do is weinvite them to stay there while
we chop up the gun and once it'sno longer a usable firearm,
it's essentially junk metal andthen they're free to leave and
(05:32):
we take those parts and we turnthem into garden tools and art
and other fun things.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, man, the legal side.
There's so many things you justdon't even think about, like
yeah, because these are likeregistered gun owners most of
the time, probably.
I mean, does it matter ifsomeone has like an unregistered
gun or like a gun they boughtillegally or something Like?
What do you do with that?
You?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
know we'll chop up anything you bring to us.
That's just kind of our policyas a church not speaking for the
church, I should say as part ofthe Guns to Gardens movement.
What we're there to do is justto provide a place for you to
get rid of guns that you nolonger want, and so any gun that
is not wanted we will, um, wewill dismantle, um, and we've
(06:12):
dismantled everything from arifle from the 18, 18 thirties
um up to an Uzi, uh, and youknow it's.
We'll take any gun out of thecommunity, um, because we see
all guns as as potential youknow, potentially unsafe if
(06:32):
they're not properly stored andproperly cared for.
So this isn't to shame anybodythat is a gun owner is a safe
gun owner.
But there are a lot of guns outthere that are unsafely stored,
a lot of guns that are sittingaround houses.
Some are loaded.
We've had people bring guns toour events that are loaded
because they don't know how toproperly unload them.
Um, they were gifted to them.
So we're there to to checkthose weapons properly and then
(06:53):
disarm them.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I mean it is.
So we we found in our, thefirst place we rented in San
Diego.
We were helping kind of cleanup this house for this guy that
had lived there, as his mom orhis aunt had lived there for
tons of years I don't know, shewas like 96 or something but we
were cleaning out the closetwhere I think he was getting
their carpet replaced, andunderneath this like loose
carpet, there was like a littlegun.
It was like this tiny littlehandgun and, um, we're just like
(07:17):
what do we do?
What do you do with it?
You know, like we didn't knowwhat to do with it.
We ended up giving it to thelandlord and letting him deal
with it.
But you can see situations wherepeople would like just come
into ownership of a gun thatthey don't want or feel like
they're all of a sudden thingsare unsafe or they realize that
they don't want to.
They don't want this to be apart of their life.
But then what do you do withthe gun?
(07:38):
So you guys are helping solvelike a real life problem, right?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It is.
And you know, something thatactually surfaced for us after
the first event we did was that,that service, that that kind of
solving a problem for thecommunity, that that isn't.
It's not easy to get rid of agun, right, like you were just
saying.
One woman came to our eventwhose late husband had left her
with five guns after he passedand she didn't want them.
(08:04):
She didn't know how to use themor safely store them.
So she brought five weapons toour event and all five of them
were loaded, and so we saw thatas a service to unload them and
to dismantle them there, and Ithink that we prevented a
possible tragedy from occurringin her home.
You know, whether that be withgrandchildren running around or
(08:25):
or just someone who sees a gunand thinks it's unloaded and
plays around with it, you know,adults can make those mistakes
too.
Um so uh, we were very happy toget those out of um, out of her
home for her.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, I.
So this is a question maybe outof ignorance or something,
cause I'm not like a gun person,but like what are guns made at?
Like what kind of metal is itand what?
What do you have to do Causeyou like melt, melt down the
metal parts and make actualtools out of them?
Yeah, and I mean, like whatkind of metal is it?
Recording the video?
Here's a.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Here's an example of a fire, uh, of a firearm, turned
into a garden tool here.
Um, but yeah, they're alldifferent sorts of metal, you
know, and steel and wood,depending on you know the
manufacturer and you know some.
Some guns have a lot of plasticincluded in them too,
especially, you know, cheaperones.
So we, we had a blacksmith inour congregation in Bend that
(09:17):
that actually had a mobile forgeon site and, would you know,
would melt the heat, the heat,the steel, and pound it into,
you know, the spade.
Uh, myself I'm a woodworker,and so I would actually take the
gunstocks and turn them on thelathe to get the handles, um,
which was fun to kind of jointhe two together and make
something new.
So, yeah, it's a really fun andcreative process to to take
(09:40):
something that has so muchpotential for harm and turn it
into something that you know youcan use out in the garden.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, it's so cool.
I mean, and you're showing itfor those who are watching on
YouTube you could see the spadethat he was holding up and or
the trowel.
But if you're not like, wherecan people go and Google just
raw tools or where could they gocheck out what you've made?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, for ones that raw tools has made.
You can look at rawtoolsorg.
They actually sell them ontheir website For local churches
that are involved in this.
Oftentimes they'll sell themlocally or at craft fairs and
things of that nature orconferences nonviolence
conferences, yeah.
But I would start byresearching Raw Tools a whole
(10:21):
host of great things thatthey've made and and they've
spotlighted some amazing artiststoo that have have gone above
and beyond, making some really,really amazing art.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Have you used the tools Like are they legit?
You know what I mean.
How do they compare to like aprofessionally made shovel or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You know I ours actually sits on a on a shelf in
our, our home, just kind of asas a symbol of something that we
can speak to when, when peopleask about the work that we do.
But some people do use them inthe garden.
So I'm not I'm not sure howthey compare.
I would say, you know, this onefeels pretty sturdy.
So I think it could, I think itcould plant some things.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That's so cool and they're beautiful too, like
they're, you know, like you said, you've got artists involved in
making them, and so, again,like I just have so many
questions, like so many thingsthat I want to know about it,
but how many of these are youdoing, like, how many guns are
you getting off of the streetand out of homes and give me
some sense of like scale andstuff?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, so I'll kind of speak a little bit to my story
a little bit.
So a couple of years ago mywife and I got involved in this
in Bend, oregon, and we were apart of two events there.
And then we have sincerelocated to Portland Oregon
where we're working on standingup a Portland chapter of this
(11:39):
movement.
But the church in Bend hascontinued and had four
successful events.
So far.
They've dismantled well over100 weapons, I think over 120,
probably at this point.
The first event, we were hopingmaybe four people showed up,
you know, with guns.
But by the time we wrapped upour morning prayer session, you
know, before the event, therewas already a line of cars
(12:01):
around the block and we ended updismantling over 70 weapons.
And many people had multipleweapons that they were ready to
dismantle, ready to get out oftheir homes.
Many people were really thankfulfor this, just as a service,
because it's just again not aneasy thing to get rid of.
It's really intimidating theidea of if I want to sell it,
(12:21):
then I got to go through theproper channels.
I don't want to sell itillegally because then I don't
know what it's going to be usedfor.
I don't want to take it to apawn shop.
I can't sell it online, youknow.
I mean you're walking throughall the things.
I guess it's just easier tostick in the closet and so
having this anonymous eventwhere you could just show up and
we dismantle it for you and youcan kind of just have that
(12:43):
weight off your shoulders for alot of people was they were
really grateful for it yeah,yeah, that's so cool and you
know, obviously you mentionedearlier, there's like a gun per
person in the united states, soit's going to take a lot of uh
chop saws to get rid of like allof the guns or something.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
But I do think there's something deeply
symbolic about, like, whatyou're doing.
Um, I mean, it's, it's part ofour uh scriptural heritage.
You know, like beating, youknow beating uh weapons into
plowshares and all that and um,yeah, well, like what do you?
Like?
It's like a witness, right?
So what's the message that youfeel like people hear, that you
want people to hear from, fromthe project?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
yeah, I appreciate you asking that, because you're
right in that we're not going tochop up every gun in America
and that's not really the pointof what we're trying to do,
right?
We're not.
We're not claiming that this isgoing to even really make a
dent in the number of guns thatare out there, kind of putting a
(13:44):
stake in the ground, saying,hey, there's another way.
And we're doing this inspiredby the nonviolent message of
Jesus.
And you know what does theBible say more than anything?
And that's be not afraid.
Fear drives so many people oneither side of this issue.
You have people that are buyingguns out of fear and people
that are afraid to go to placesbecause of guns, right, and you
have everybody is afraid,everybody's afraid, and reacting
(14:06):
to this in different ways,reacting to this issue in
different ways.
It's driving people to buy moreweapons.
It's exacerbating the issue,right?
Some people will say that theanswer to guns is more guns.
I had a friend online who postedafter seeing a news story that
made her afraid.
Who posted after seeing a newsstory that made her afraid, she
(14:28):
posted I think I'm going to gobuy a gun as a way to protect
her family.
And I tried to reason with her,with stats, right, because
there's so many stats that saywhy you shouldn't do that, why
you shouldn't bring a gun intoyour home.
You're more likely to introducean accident into your home than
to actually defend yourselffrom a harmful invader.
But it's when fear is drivingpeople.
(14:48):
You know how do you speak tothat and I think that we speak
to that through the gospelmessage.
You know through, through, youknow, the message of the Bible
of being not afraid.
You know of speaking to themabout Jesus and his.
You know his message ofnonviolence as well.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's amazing how much fear
drives like all sorts of things.
And, um, thinking about guns,you know well I mean, so it's
interesting.
We talked a little bit on thetrip about this, but, um, do you
find that it's people own gunsfor different reasons, like in
different places, so you kind ofmove from like a rural place to
an urban place and I feel likewe were, we talked a little bit
(15:25):
about just kind of thedifference in in sort of guns in
those different locations.
Um, do you find that, like fearis a driver in different ways
in different places?
Or I don't know, do you havewhat do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, um, where we were, uh,in bend, there's a lot of uh, a
lot of self-preservation mindset.
You know, especially, uh, peoplethat are maybe on uh, larger
pieces of land, kind of rancherculture, that want to make sure
that they're um, they'reprotecting their families,
protecting their space.
(15:58):
Um, but moving into a more urbanenvironment, um, you know, we
have, uh, you know, a houselesscrisis here in in in Portland,
um, a houseless crisis here inPortland, and there's actually a
rise or maybe I shouldn't say arise, but there is a lot of the
gun violence we see in the cityis actually amongst the
(16:19):
unhoused population, and you canthink about if you're living on
the street and you're trying tokeep yourself safe amidst all
the dangers that surround you.
You know, a gun, finding a gunor being given a gun seems like
an easy way to protect yourselfin that situation, when it
really could just drive you intomore harm and put yourself into
a more dangerous situation.
So there's lots of context here.
(16:41):
In Oregon, we also experience alot of suicide by gun, so, and
that's prevalent across the USas well, so that's a major issue
wrapped's prevalent across theU?
S as well, uh, so that that's amajor issue, wrapped up in in
the gun violence epidemic aswell.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting Like we, my wife and
I, lived out on a ranch out inHamul, which for non San Diego
people that's like out in EastCounty, uh, you know, 30, 40
miles East of the city, and wewere like two miles down a dirt
road on this 45 acre ranch.
We're the only ones you knowand you kind of realize like no,
(17:13):
no one's going to make it hereto help if I need help, you know
, and I think like urban peopledon't really think about that
reality.
For people that live kind ofout in the sticks a little bit,
um, but even, but so you can seehow fear drives.
And then I feel like in theurban context like we have,
we're kind of all on top of eachother.
And then you, I mean you fearpeople, right, like there's
(17:35):
people everywhere.
But I think like it's helpfulto kind of get some of those
stats of to realize like, okay,I feel like I'm protecting
myself with this thing.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
The odds are I'm actually putting myself in some
danger because I'm puttingsomething very dangerous like
right around me right, yeah, Imean, guns are the the leading
cause of death for children andteens in america, which is, I
mean, if you just sit with thatfor a minute, like that's,
that's just terrifying, right,you know I'm a parent, I know
you're a parent as well likethat's the reality of our, our
nation.
(18:05):
And introducing, when you thinkabout a gun, right, just its
presence increases thelikelihood that it will be used.
If a gun is not there, it can'tbe used.
So if a gun is in the home anda situation arises where you are
afraid, then you have theopportunity to go get that
(18:26):
weapon and use it.
If you don't have a gun, thenyou can't go get it, you can't
use it, and you know, themajority of the time that gun
isn't actually necessary I wouldsay, more than the majority of
the amount of time that thestats are pretty staggering.
I think of the likelihood thatyou would actually need a weapon
and if you're safely storingthat gun, the chances of you
(18:48):
logically being able to go getit and use it in the time that
you would need it, they don'treally make sense, which then
drives people to keep themunsafely stored in the event of
an outcome which is unlikely,which again opens up lots of
possibility for accidents andharm to take place.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
So yeah, yeah, and you don't even think about.
I mean, I feel like we talkabout guns and you think about
people who are victims of gunviolence.
But the other side is alsopretty awful, like, if you think
about you know someone, youfeel like someone's breaking
into your house.
You grab your gun, you bring itout there, even if you don't
fire it, like that's atraumatizing experience for
everyone involved.
Let's say, you actually doshoot somebody.
(19:29):
I mean that's like a horriblething also.
You know, you got to look atthat the rest of your life?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, I don't think enough people really really take
that to its natural conclusion,right, like if so, someone
breaks into your home and thenyou kill them, right, and you
have to then live with the factthat you killed that person.
And if they're breaking intoyour home, are they really
breaking into your home toactually harm you?
(19:53):
And you know the likelihood ofthat.
I mean that that does happen.
I'm not going to pretend thatit doesn't happen or hasn't
happened before, but themajority of situations where
people are breaking into homesare not to murder people.
Where people are breaking intohomes or not to murder people,
right, it's theft, or you know?
(20:16):
You look at some of the otherreasons people might break in.
Are those capital crimes?
Are those worthy of death?
Are those worthy of deathwithout due process?
Are you going to play judge andjury in the moment and actually
end their life over this thing?
It's pretty weighty to thinkabout putting yourself in that
scenario and I totallyunderstand the mindset of
wanting to protect your family,but I also I also think not
(20:36):
enough people are really kind oftaking that to its its end and
thinking, well, I will killsomeone you know and live with
that.
You know I'll be ready to killsomeone, that's just.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
It's a pretty wild notion to me, but right, maybe
not others yeah, I mean, whetheryou face like a legal
consequence or not, like whetheryou get convicted of murder or
something, or you get, you know,there's all these stand your
ground laws and stuff, likethat's kind of one side of it,
like you might actually go toprison if you shoot somebody.
But even if you don't like,there's just the weight of it
and yeah, I mean pretty gunviolence is just awful, you know
(21:11):
, there's just it's just awfulin every way.
How's the response been Like?
Do you feel like people haveresponded Well, have you got any
pushback, or you know?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
bend.
We we did receive quite a bitof of pushback, um, but I would
say we received a lot of uh, alot of gratitude from people
that participated in the eventand we received a lot of
pushback for people that feltlike this was threatening in
some way their freedom,threatened, threatening in some
way um, gun ownership or uh, youknow, was taking, was doing
something completely unnecessary.
They didn't like that.
A church was involved in it.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
That's interesting.
What do they say?
Why didn't they like a churchbeing involved in?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
it.
They felt like it was out ofplace, as if, like the
government was somehow, as ifthe church was reaching into
political territory, which Idon't necessarily fault that
line of thinking, because gunviolence has been politicized
Right, which is again, it seemsabsurd when we think about when
(22:14):
we actually think about gunviolence in America and how many
lives it affects.
But it's been so greatlypoliticized that any sort of
mention of guns or or evennonviolence, promoting
nonviolence, can be seen aspolitical, uh, if done.
So, you know, even if you'renot, even if you're not
(22:34):
necessarily mentioning, you know, a political candidate or or,
uh, a specific law, or it canjust be seen as a deeply
political and divisive issue.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, I mean to be fair.
Like it is a political issue,right Like it is, it is
political and I think thewhether it's like a something
that only one party should beconcerned with is a whole nother
issue, because it is apolitical issue that should
cross those like party linesthat you would think you know,
but it you know, everything isso polarized now that it seems
(23:07):
like it doesn't, but like itfeels like because of the weight
of like well, we all, you know,like we we haven't even really
talked about like the kinds ofgun violence that we're so used
to seeing on TV now with likethe mass shootings.
And you know, like my kids, Iremember the first time that I
heard that my kids had gonethrough you know like a lockdown
at school and like we didn't,we didn't have those when I was
(23:29):
a kid and just like the weightof that.
You know there's certain onesthat just kind of hit people
there, like the Uvalde one was areally hard one for me.
It just hit different that massshooting.
But, like you, we have theselike horrific tragedies that
just kind of permeate our spirit, our mind, our politics.
Like the conversation, I feellike what you're doing in some
(23:52):
ways is meant to respond in kind.
You know what I mean.
Like it's meant to be somethingthat's symbolic, that's like
kind of visceral.
Do you feel like that's true,or would you say something
different?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah.
I would say that this feelslike a tangible way that we can
get involved in the issue andand it's so easy to, it's so
easy to just feel helpless inthis issue.
You know you mentioned Uvaldeand that was that was actually
the tipping point for me and mywife point for me and my wife,
(24:31):
my son had just been born.
He was, you know, a month oldmaybe when we saw the news of,
of the school shooting in Uvaldeand that just we just sat there
saying what are we going to do?
You know, we're new parents andI'm holding my infant son and
saying, you know, how can we,how can this be the world that
we're bringing him into?
This wasn't what we grew upwith, right?
And what are we going to doabout it?
(24:53):
So this opportunity kind ofcame up.
Our church at the time said,hey, we want to go deeper into
this issue of gun violence.
And we they actually startedpartnering with raw tools and my
wife and I kind of said, hey,we'll, we'll help out.
Like this is an issue that'sdeeply important to us.
(25:14):
We've been talking about it fora while.
We want to know how we can help.
And the church graciously said,well, you know, you can help
out by helping lead it.
And so it ended up being anopportunity for us to get really
involved and get really steepedin this issue and help stand up
this event.
But I would say, you know, togive it a little bit more
context, I was thinking as wewere learning and growing in and
(25:37):
diving into this guns togardens movement, I was thinking
about my own journey and themoments that I've actually been
really proximate to gun violencethroughout my entire life,
without even thinking about it,because it's just part of our
culture.
Here, you know, I think back towhen I was in eighth grade and
a friend shared with me that hehe had grabbed his dad's gun.
(25:59):
He was very, very close tocommitting suicide and at the
last minute decided not to.
And how?
I didn't tell someone.
And I think I play the what ifgame.
You know what if he had gonethrough with it and I didn't
tell someone?
And I'm living with that Rightand thankfully he didn't.
But that's still.
I still sit with that, I stillthink about that Right, that
(26:20):
that that could have completelychanged the course of my life in
a split split second changedthe course of my life in a split
split second when I hadgraduated college.
Right the summer after Igraduated college, a classmate
of mine was in a movie theaterin Aurora, colorado, at the Dark
Knight movie theater or DarkKnight grand opening, and
someone opened fire.
(26:41):
And you know, during that massshooting I'm sure a lot of
people will remember that oneand she was really, really
wounded and wounded reallyterribly.
You, not long after, a familyfriend was at the Gilroy Garlic
Festival and had to cart awaywounded that were shot at that
mass shooting.
And then, you know, not thatlong ago, about a year ago, you
(27:01):
know, we live next to a reallygreat park here in Portland and
someone stepped out of a car andfired off a hundred rounds into
a crowd in a bunch of housesaround the park.
I mean, we heard it.
I was putting my kids down forbed and we heard this, like you
know, this booming a block awayfrom our home and thankfully no
one was killed in that one.
But they found a hundred, youknow, a hundred shells at the
(27:23):
park that my son plays at almostevery day and I think, wow, I
could have been walking my dogand hit by a straight bullet.
You know, and I don't feel likeI live in a dangerous
neighborhood, you know, oranything like that, it's just,
this is the culture we live inand I didn't even really think
about so many of those instanceswhen I got involved in this
movement Uh, you know I wasthinking about.
(27:45):
You know, uvalde was just sotragic and terrible for the
entire nation, for the, you know, for the whole world, just to
see that, witness it, and notthat long after Sandy Hook,
which, again, just like, is sopresent in everyone's mind,
right?
So we have these moments thatwhen we all think about it, like
how proximate we've been to gunviolence you know, 44 percent
(28:05):
of Americans, personally, knowsomeone that's been shot, either
accidentally or intentionally.
And you know there's two of uson the call.
I know I've known.
You know I've known someone,you know.
I mean, we're proving astatistic right there, right,
you know, and I'm not sure ofyour story, but you know, it's
just, it's insane to think thatthis is where we live, you know,
(28:25):
and that we're not all rollingup our sleeves to do something
about it.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of normalized, you know,
and that, yeah, if you justthink through your life, like
cause I'm now that you'veprompted me you know my, my aunt
, was accidentally shot when shewas very little by her little
brother who had access to a gunand they were playing and uh,
you know, like I've I don't knowI can list lots of times where
I've been proximate to it.
(28:51):
You know, we live in aneighborhood that has a lot, a
decent amount of gun violenceand you know we've had things
happen in our, our neighborhoodhere.
Uh, the FBI.
I woke up one morning hearing abig thump, thinking that one of
my kids fell out of uh, fell outof off a bunk bed or something
like that, and I like wentwandering around the house it
was like dusk or it was like a,not dust, it was like daybreak,
(29:12):
basically, like just before thesun was going to come up, and uh
saw some things going on on thestreet outside and the neighbor
cat a corner from us.
Uh, the FBI had broken downtheir door and it turned out
they were running guns and drugsout of that place.
They were doing a morning raidof you know that's like across
the street and I had had arun-in with one of the people
(29:34):
that was living there like twoweeks prior over a dog thing.
And I don't know you just youknow you can probably go through
your life and find lots oftimes when you're you're pretty
close to some something badhappening and right and do we
need to all wait until we're alldirect victims of it?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
right, you know to do something about it and and I,
yeah, it's wild, you know, justhearing your own, your stories
as well and and hearing how manytimes you've been, you've been
proximate to it, and I'm sureyou know um many of your
listeners will will, if theyexamine their lives, will feel
the same and be able to pinpoint, you know, moments where you
(30:12):
know we don't often connect itto like, oh, that was like a gun
violence moment, but they were,you know, and yeah.
So I think if we all kind ofreflect on that, we see that,
wow, this is really affectingeverybody.
This isn't just something we'reseeing on the news but, like,
many of us have these moments inour lives where and that could
(30:33):
have maybe it was really tragic,where it could have been really
, really tragic, and that'sreally scary to think about.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, I mean it's overwhelming and kind of like
you said, there's there is asense of like helplessness out
there with it, because you know,we mentioned of all day and
like my, I remember thathappened like at the end of the
school year it was the last dayof school for them, I think, and
our school year wasn't quiteover, and so I remember like
last day of school it was realfrightening, like man, what if
this is like a trend orsomething like you know, you
(31:02):
just kind of think differentabout it.
And there's like this sense ofand I mean we've we've mentioned
now I don't know how many six,seven mass shootings in this.
We could all list off like aton more and these things happen
all the time now.
But I think, thinking back to aprevious podcast episode that
we made, actually for peoplewho've been listening all along,
talk to Dr Brad Kelly, who's anOld Testament scholar, about
(31:24):
moral injury and the way thatlike feeling like are like we
were, things are out of controlfor us, that we are either been
forced to participate in thingsthat are sort of morally
egregious or that our leadersand like the systems we're part
of have failed us.
It can lead us into this placeof despair.
But having something good thatyou do can be so empowering and
(31:47):
like it can be so enlivening tolike what you're doing, dave,
like having this sense that likein this, in this small way,
like I know this isn't going toremove all the guns from the
neighborhood or even, you know,even from you know this little
block of houses that we're doingin the middle of you know
wherever the church is, but likeI can do something.
That's that kind of testifiesthat there is good in the world,
(32:10):
that we can turn somethingawful into something beautiful.
I mean it's just like apowerful message something awful
into something beautiful.
I mean it's just like apowerful message.
I don't know, you know I don'thave, like I don't know what to
ask on the on the end of that,but like I just really I love
what you're doing and it's soinspiring and like, yeah, it's
good.
I mean I hope you've had thoseresponses too.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
We have.
Yeah, I think we've seen a lotof people kind of take a step
back and say, wow, this issomething that is really unique
and such a positive way to getinvolved in this movement.
I think the other thing youknow as a follower of Jesus that
really makes me pursue this ata deeper level is that gun
violence is something thatpeople often hold very silently
(32:54):
right If they've experiencedsome sort of trauma or tragedy
in their life.
It's not something that peopleoften walk around talking about
freely.
Some, you know, some, may bemore willing to share their
stories, but these are reallyheavy experiences that people
have faced, and these events,these opportunities for people
(33:15):
to bring a weapon, a firearm,and have it dismantled, often
lead to people sharing theirstories as well.
And you know, as followers ofJesus, I think we're called to
to grow in greater proximity topeople's pain and to walk
through that with them, and so Ithink it allows us to to be uh
(33:37):
to go deeper in some of thosestories, um to allow healing to
take place, uh allow people toto share um what they've been
through and help them moveforward.
So this is just a small pieceof that.
You know, there's lots of.
There's lots of people doinggood work to bring about healing
, um, but this is just anotherway for us to to get involved,
(33:58):
um, and yeah, allow people to uhto experience some sort of of
healing or hope.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah for sure, I mean you can see that kind of the
cascading effect of an eventlike this.
You know every for every gun,uh, that gets taken out.
You know there's.
There's all these all thesekinds of down river effects of
of like the story, I mean eventhe story of like that person
gets to tell their theircommunity, like this is what I
did I went and just and broughtmy gun to this place and now
(34:27):
someone's using it as you know,a pitchfork or whatever you know
.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
um, you know there's you can see how, like, the
goodness of it just kind ofspreads beyond like the event
itself.
Yeah, absolutely there's.
I think that there's a lot, of,a lot of possibility for for
just great dialogue to that thisbrings up.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah, Is it.
Is it hard to host these things?
Like how do how do you go aboutlike getting something like
that started If there's someonelistening and they're like I
want to start this where I amlike how to, how does that work
started if there's someonelistening and they're like I
want to start this, where I amLike, how to?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
how does that work?
Yeah, I, I think, um, the themost important thing you know
you need is an excitement for itas an enthusiasm for it,
because the logistics are allthings that can be worked out.
You know you need a space tohost it.
Um, you need some volunteersthat are willing um to to roll
up their sleeves and getinvolved.
But all of those things can canbe pretty readily found, you
(35:22):
know you just need someone tolead the event.
So I'm I'm happy to to work withanybody, uh, that wants to
stand this up in their owncontext.
And you know, there there'slike a little bit of equipment,
a little bit of funding that'sneeded to make an event happen,
but it's all fairly reasonable,I think, to to standing up an
event like this.
It just kind of takes a littlebit of a leap of faith knowing
that you're going to gosomewhere where people are going
to be willingly bringing awhole bunch of guns, and so
(35:45):
there's a little bit of that.
But knowing that people arebringing them because they no
longer want them, I think makesit worth it and and it's just a
way for us to step into thisissue and and yeah, just say I'm
going to choose to be notafraid, you know, and and live
into that.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
How many tools do you make pergun?
Just curious.
You know you can make a coupledepending on the type of weapon.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
but the type of firearm usually like a rifle
stock, I can cut into a couplehandles.
Type of firearm usually like arifle stock, I can cut into a
couple handles.
Um, and then you know,depending on the barrel size, if
it's a rifle, um, you know, youcan, you can make probably a
couple of spades out of it.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot oflike kind of extra scrap metal
and parts and things that that,uh, can't necessarily
necessarily be made into agarden tool like the one I
(36:33):
showed.
But, um, that's where artistscome in and metal workers and
they can make jewelry, they canmake.
I've seen people make kids toys.
I've seen, and this is whereyou know, if you go into a
rawtoolsorg, you can see some ofthe amazing things that people
have been making around thecountry that are, you know,
volunteers in this movement.
So it's it's really exciting tosee people get creative and and
to see people's imaginationsget sparked.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
So yeah, super cool.
So the question was kind of outof left field, but I was like I
was going to ask that earlier.
Um, uh, cool.
Well, I mean, like I said, Ilove, love what you're doing,
deeply appreciative of it, likethe witness of it is so cool and
I'm I'm really thankful you'vebeen able to, uh, you know,
share it a little bit at leastwith our folks.
I mean any other things thatyou want to tell us about, like
(37:14):
what this means to you or whatit means to the community that
you've been a part of, you know?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I think, at the end of the day, we live in a society
where gun violence is a majorissue and it's probably going to
be a major issue for some time,and this is the world that our
kids are growing up in.
And when my kids are older andthey say you know, what were you
doing about that?
And when my kids are older andthey say, you know, what were
you doing about that?
You know, I'll have an answerto that, you know, and I think
(37:40):
that applies to a lot ofdifferent issues, right, like,
not everyone can be involved inevery issue, but, but I think,
for for me, this is this is onethat I deeply care about, and I
think it's an example, I think,to my children of of trying to
make their world a better placeand trying to lead from, of of
trying to make their world abetter place, uh, and trying to
lead from a place of faith.
And, uh, knowing that we can't,we can't solve every problem,
(38:04):
but we can, we can take a standfor what we think is injustice,
uh, and this is just, um, my wayof of trying to live into that.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, Well, it's awesome You're doing good work.
Keep it up and yeah, man,blessings to you.
Thank you so much for coming onand for people listening.
Check him out.
He's got Instagram, Dave Creel.
What is it, Dave?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
just recommend everybody to follow Raw Tools,
since they're just doingincredible work as an
organization, and if you justsearch Guns to Gardens on
Instagram or online, you'll seehow this movement plays out
across the country, with lots ofamazing volunteers and churches
that are jumping in gettinginvolved.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, and I checked out Crew Creative before we did
this and there's some reallycool just really beautiful
images your workshop and some ofthe tools you've made, and then
you can click in certain spotsand see stories of some of the
events and see some of theactual uh forging of the, of the
tools from from the guns and uh, lots of cool stuff to check
out.
Yeah, thank you so much, daveand uh, if you're listening to
(39:09):
this, go give him a follow anduh, and give us a follow like
subscribe or whatever, and giveus some feedback.
Make a comment, let us know howyou're hearing these episodes.
One of the things that ourchurch has been talking about is
wanting to have a little more.
You know, we put these out sopeople who have trouble getting
in for a midweek engagement cankind of have a discipleship tool
(39:30):
.
But we want to see these bemore interactive.
So have a conversation withsomebody about what you heard
and tell them what you love,tell them what you hated, uh and
uh, and just have aconversation with somebody
especially another disciple ofJesus, um, about some of the
things you're hearing on here.
Um, all right, well, we'regoing to call it for today.
Thank you so much, dave, and uhblessings to you.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
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