Father Greg Boyle's Radical Vision of Human Goodness with Rev Megan Pardue

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Father Greg Boyle's decades long ministry in the gang-riddled neighborhoods of Los Angeles stands as one of the most powerful examples of faith in action today. As Pastor Chris and Pastor Megan unpack Boyle's latest book "Cherished Belonging," they explore how this Jesuit priest's radical vision has transformed thousands of lives through Homeboy Industries, now the world's largest gang rehabilitation program.

The conversation delves into Boyle's two guiding principles: "We are all inherently good, no exceptions" and "We belong to each other, no exceptions." These aren't mere platitudes but the foundation of a ministry that has seen former enemies from rival gangs working side by side. Through what Boyle calls "therapeutic mysticism," gang members experience genuine belonging and form healthy attachments, often for the first time in their lives.

What makes this episode particularly compelling is how Chris and Megan wrestle honestly with challenging aspects of Boyle's theology while still being deeply moved by his witness. They discuss his provocative framing of sin and mental illness, his understanding of systemic injustice, and how his approach challenges conventional religious thinking about human nature. The conversation weaves between theological reflection and practical ministry implications, offering insights for anyone working with marginalized communities.

One of the most powerful stories shared describes a Homeboy manager confronting a gun-wielding former employee, willing to sacrifice his life rather than perpetuate violence. Years later, when that same person returned seeking reconciliation, he was welcomed home with open arms – a profound example of boundaries maintained without demonization, accountability paired with unconditional love.

Whether you're familiar with Father Boyle's work or encountering it for the first time, this conversation will challenge you to see others with new eyes. As Megan notes, Boyle's ministry offers a compelling answer to those wondering if anyone is still following Jesus in meaningful ways. Listen in, and then grab one of Boyle's books to continue the journey toward seeing the divine in everyone you encounter.

Episode Transcript

Chris Nafis (00:00):
Hey and welcome back to the Current.
This is Pastor Chris Nafis andfor today's episode I've been
reading a lot of the books byFather Greg Boyle, who founded
Homeboy Industries in LosAngeles, which we'll talk about
in depth in the episode, and Ijust wanted to sort of process
it with somebody.
So I texted a friend, longtimefriend, pastor Megan Pardue,

(00:20):
who's a pastor of Refuge HomeChurch in Durham, north Carolina
.
We used to attend that church.
Who's a pastor of Refuge HomeChurch in Durham, north Carolina
.
We used to attend that churchtogether back in my Durham days
and she now pastors the church.
Is a thoughtful, intelligent,wonderful person to just process
some of these things with.
She also teaches preaching atDuke Divinity School today and

(00:40):
just very glad that she waswilling to share a little time
with me so that I could processthe things that I was reading
and so that we can share it withyou.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation here.
It is Well.

(01:04):
Hey, megan, thanks for comingon the podcast with me.

Megan Pardue (01:08):
Thanks, chris, it's good to be here.

Chris Nafis (01:10):
Just to kind of give the people listening like a
little context.
So, like this this conversationcame out.
Well, first of all, megan and Iare good friends I would say
the only you know you're closerfriends even with Rachel, with
my wife, than with me, but weare also good friends.
I was reading Greg Boyle's bookCherished Belonging and really
loving it.
It was my first book of histhat I had read.

(01:31):
But then there was a few thingsin there that I was just really
struggling to kind of get mymind around, like do I hate this
?
Do I love this?
And I was like I feel like Ineed to process this aloud with
somebody and I was like, well, Ihave a podcast, it's a perfect
time to do that.
I was talking to Rachel aboutit and she mentioned that Megan
had just gotten that book, orhad just read that book, and I

(01:51):
was like, oh, that's great.
So I called Megan, or I textedMegan, and was like, hey, megan,
would you come on?
And she was grateful andgracious enough to not only had
she hadn't read the book yet,but to read it.
I gave her a first podcastguest that I've given homework
and then to agree to spend sometime just chatting with me about
it.
So that's what we're doingtoday.
So thank you for all of that,megan, I'm really glad that

(02:11):
you're here with me.
Thank you.

Megan Pardue (02:13):
I mean I'm a huge Greg Boyle fan, like huge, so I
was going to read this bookanyway I just hadn't read it yet
and it is a really.
It's really, really inspiring,it's a really challenging.
I had questions.
Also, I actually have acongregant who loves, loves,
loves Greg Boyle also, and hehas listened to this book three

(02:35):
times, which I think just sayslike how much there is to unpack
in it.
So as we begin our conversation, I would just encourage you,
like pick up a copy of CherishedBelonging or get it from the
library or listen to it, becauseit's read by the author, by
Father Greg Boyle.

Chris Nafis (02:50):
Which is kind of fun, like the, because I've been
listening to I'm actually on mythird now of his, since I read
Cherished Belonging, and he doesaudio for all of them, which is
kind of cool because he kind ofdoes I don't know, he does
voices and stuff.
But yeah, you feel like you geta deeper sense of like okay,
this is who wrote this and it'scool.

Megan Pardue (03:09):
Yeah, and sometimes he speaks Spanish and
that's fun, like I'd rather havehim, like say it aloud.
Yeah, it's cool.

Chris Nafis (03:14):
For sure, for those who don't know who Greg Boyle
is, you want to maybe introducehim a little bit, yeah
absolutely so.

Megan Pardue (03:21):
Greg Boyle, also known as Father Greg or G as
he's often called by homies, isa Jesuit priest and he's the
founder of Homeboy Industries.
Homeboy Industries is out ofLos Angeles.
It's the largest gangintervention, rehabilitation and

(03:49):
reentry program in the world.
So really specifically workingwith gang members, both through
their transition out ofincarceration into you know,
rehabilitating, and trying towork on that recidivism rate,
which is the recidivism is likethe likelihood that you will
reoffend and be incarceratedagain.
So he is one of these followersof Jesus that like blows me
away.
He's an ordained Jesuit priestand he was ordained in 1984 and

(04:14):
has been doing this work in LAlike for, I think, almost like
40 years, pastoring for evenlonger.
He first was serving as apastor of a church in Los
Angeles called Dolores Missionand he was there in, that's in
the Boylan Heights neighborhoodof LA and then founded Homeboy

(04:36):
Industries.
Okay, I threw the 40 years outthere, but I actually did write
down a couple of things.
So 40 years is not quite right,I can do math.
Founded Homeboy Industries in1988.
Initially kind of like a jobsprogram, right, like addressing
poverty through employment, butit eventually became Homeboy
Industries, one of the thingsthat's deeply profound to me

(04:58):
about Craig Boyle is hisfaithfulness and sense of place,
like this is where he was sentto serve, called to serve, and
he has been serving there, likeI just said, right since.
Like the 80s, he's seen LAthrough crack, cocaine.
He's seen LA through differentvariations of gangs rising and

(05:21):
falling.
Of course, in that amount oftime you've seen so many
different programs that havebeen offered by the city or the
county, different nonprofitstrying to address some of the
systemic issues.
But in his writing and his workI am so moved by just his deep
commitment to this particulargroup of people, especially

(05:44):
young people, especially peoplewho have been or are currently
incarcerated.
A lot of his stories are aboutgoing and doing mass in
different county jails orprisons across the LA County and
surrounding areas and he oftenwill talk about young men who

(06:04):
remember him from coming andright presiding at mass and
he'll give them their card andthey won't come and see.
They won't come and find theirway to homeboy for another 20 or
30 years, but he's, he's beenthere and so many of the folks,
if not all of their leadershipteam, are people who, in his
language, like they're homiesthemselves, right People who
have been gang involved, gangadjacent, dealt with many of the

(06:28):
systemic issues that lead togang violence and gang
involvement and, like these arehis people and it's I'm just
like so moved by his life, hiswork, his faithfulness and I
encourage everyone to check himout.

Chris Nafis (06:46):
Yeah, his most famous book, I think, is Tattoos
on the heart, which is hisfirst book, and it's it's
excellent.
He writes like a lot of his hiswriting is these little snippet
stories of encounters he's hadwith, you know, people that have
come through his programs.
Um, and they're they're funny,they're deep, they're like he
kind of brings this profound,mystical kind of reflection out
of these things and like'refunny, they're deep, they're
like he kind of brings thisprofound, mystical kind of
reflection out of these thingsand, like you said, he's in this

(07:08):
, he's in this context of likesevere violence.
I think like one of the thingsthat stuck out to me because
I've been reading his books kindof like in rapid succession
here, is like in each book, atsome point he'll give an update
of like how many funerals he'sdone for people who've been
murdered by gangs.
And I think in his recent bookit's like somewhere around 400,

(07:30):
you know.
And so I mean, just think abouthow many funerals, how many
like dead young people, that isto, you know, mostly gun
violence or other forms ofviolence.
It's a lot and that's a deeppart of his work and his context
.
And, like you said, his, I feellike his work.
His even his theology is kindof like comes from this like
place where he's been so deeplyrooted for all these years and

(07:54):
like, yeah, he has these, likehe's much better than I am, at
least, at, you know, justputting together these little
sayings and things that are justlike full of like richness and
I don't know, reading his books.
It's not like you're readinglike a book of theology or
something.
He's not building a systemictheology so much, as he is just
kind of like bringing you intolike this mystical experience

(08:16):
he's had of like community andrelationship and the love of God
and yeah, it's really, reallygood.
I don't know, does that sound?

Megan Pardue (08:24):
Oh, absolutely.
I'll say just maybe a couplemore things about Homeboy
Industries that feel importantfor those who aren't familiar
with it.
One is that Homeboy Industrieshas this kind of initial program
and I don't know what it'scalled, but it's 18 months long.
So you know, let's say you'vebeen previously incarcerated,

(08:45):
you're out, you know, you got aplace to stay and you enroll in
their kind of 18 month programand that is going to do all
kinds of things.
But one of the some of thelanguage that he uses I think is
really important, and he talksabout therapeutic mysticism is
kind of one of his phrases andthe reason that their program is
18 months.
It's not just like job trainingand therapy, Like it is those

(09:08):
things, but it's 18 monthsbecause that's how long it takes
to like, heal or formattachment, and this is, like I
think, true of infants, right,this is like pop psychology.
I'm trying to pull out ofnowhere here.
I'm trying to pull out ofnowhere here, but there's, like
these relational attachmentsthat so many folks who have been

(09:29):
gang involved are just missing,and so one of the first things
that they're trying to do withthis therapeutic mysticism
approach is form attachments andbonds, because attachments can
help to heal some of thedisassociation and offer ways to
cope with triggers, help youhave a sense of community and

(09:50):
belonging or for some folks,like maybe for the first time,
family.
So I think that's just like areally important like.
This is not like a six week,like okay, let's get you on your
feet again and send you outlike an 18 month commitment to
then and part of that um to thenbe working at homeboy.
Um, and so many, so many folksare in recovery.

(10:12):
So that's a dynamic as well.
Um, and another thing I'll sayabout homeboy industries is that
there's these socialenterprises, so there are
opportunities for work alongsidethe healing.
So there's Homeboy Bakery andHomeboy Silkscreen, Homegirl
Cafe.
For a while they had a graffitiremoval service that then they

(10:32):
actually closed down because itwas putting former gang members
and perhaps like again in likereally dangerous situations of
violence again.
So there's these socialenterprises that go alongside
the work and I think thatoffering people meaningful work
is also super important to theirhealing and sense of belonging.

Chris Nafis (10:51):
Yeah, there's like a holistic-ness to what they do
and you know he taught, like youmentioned, that the first part
of that is he talks a lot abouttrauma and tells stories of like
childhood trauma.
And some of the stories that hetells of like the things these
kids have been through are justlike gut-wrenching and
horrifying and you kind ofrealize why people have so much

(11:12):
trouble kind of finding theirway in the world, in a, in a
into peace or community orconnection.
You know where some of thetribalism comes from through of
the gang affiliations and youknow like part of what they're
like.
Not only are they teaching andkind of not just teaching, but
you know, as we've been talkingabout a lot at our church
through some of the trauma workwe've been doing like learning

(11:33):
with their whole bodies, right,not just with your mind but with
your whole nervous system, witheverything, learning how to
actually connect with others.
But like they're doing this withpeople who are from like rival
gangs and they're workingtogether and so kind of
overcoming some of these likereally significant barriers,
where these guys who and womenbut I think it's a lot of men

(11:55):
who might see each other on theon the block and shoot each
other are now finding themselveslike baking together or, you
know, making tea together orwhatever, and I don't know.
There's just such a profoundwitness to what can happen when
we actually learn how to loveone another, embrace our
belovedness, as I think FatherBoyle might say, and like, yeah,

(12:17):
there's like this thespirituality is so.
It like permeates everything,at least that he does and the
way that he writes.
And what I really love about itis how I mean in this, I think,
is what I find Paul doing allthe time, how the what he does
first is sort of name, thereality of what sort of of God's

(12:40):
identity for us, that like weare beloved people, that we are
good, that we are made for oneanother, like that this is like
who we are, like we belong inthis place of loving, connection
and community and goodness, andthat like finding our way into
who we already are is like thepath, not what so many I think

(13:03):
spiritual leaders I guess cankind of have the opposite of
approach where, like you have to, like you are bad and you are
terrible, especially with peoplewho are, who, like some of
these people, have like murderedpeople and stuff.
You know, like you, you have to,you have to kind of like I
don't know, find your way intoyou.
You're not good enough now,like you need to become good

(13:23):
enough and uh, and I think what,like what I see in Paul, which
we've talked about some atchurch even recently, is this
opposite approach where he'ssaying like, look, you are
children of God.
Now, now, like, be who you are.
And I think that's the sameapproach that I find in in
father Boyle.
Would you say or would you addanything to that, megan?

Megan Pardue (13:42):
Yeah, he talks about um in this book in
particular, that the choicesthat we make, that that don't
make sense or aren't loving, oreven do harm, and like intense
harm.
Right, that he uses hislanguage like, oh, like he is a
stranger to himself or she is astranger to herself, like she

(14:04):
hasn't been able to see Godinside of her.
In fact, he tells a story inchapter five of Cherished
Belonging I had just mentionedthe graffiti removal enterprise
that they had.
He tells a story aboutultimately choosing to shut down
that enterprise because twodifferent people in a

(14:27):
three-month period were murderedby rival gangs while working on
the job for Homeboy in thisgraffiti removal enterprise.
So imagine, like this would bekind of you know, okay, chris
owns a cafe.
Somebody graffitis the front ofthe cafe and then you know you
would call up their enterpriseto come remove it, kind of thing

(14:47):
.
Well, he tells a story aboutasking this group of people who
worked on this team, thisgraffiti removal team, following
these two murders, like shouldwe keep doing this or should we
shut it down?
And all of the people on thegraffiti team say like we should
keep doing it.
And Boyle reflects on that likeas the fact, not that they were

(15:09):
just like trying to take onefor the team, but they see
themselves as disposable, right,like they're, which I think is
this like really deeplyinternalized messaging, right,
and so, ultimately, like, eventhough they all said like, yes,
let's keep doing it, he decidedto shut it down because he
needed to keep them safe, right,and they're what I mean by that

(15:32):
like stranger to yourself, likewe know that God doesn't see us
as disposable.
So inside of us, is this likegoodness, this like you are a
child of god, like you are notdisposable, like your life is
worth protecting, right, yourlife is worth, like keeping safe
.
So that's kind of a differentangle on what you're talking
about, chris, but we know that,like, we internalize messages

(15:56):
from you.
Know, the language I would useis like from the powers and
principalities he would maybetalk about, like messages from
trauma, which is, of course, thesame thing we're connected in
many cases.
Messages about like our worth,our dignity, and especially for
folks who have been incarcerated, like the times that I've spent
in prison, right, I have foundone of the most important things
I can do when I'm in worship inprison is like call people by

(16:19):
their first name, because that'sanother place in which, like,
the system is dehumanizing right, you are your surname or your
last name, you are your number,you are just another like body
on a particular block, insteadof like being called by name,
and all of that is, I think,what you're talking about like

(16:39):
this deep sense of withinourselves.
We are children of God and hetaps into that goodness instead
of going in reverse Like you.
It's not that you start as badand you have to get to good,
it's like you are already good.

Chris Nafis (16:53):
He says in this book quite a bit in multiple
different ways, but in hisprevious book as well, he has
this line, which I have used ina sermon in prison before you
are exactly who God wants you tobe already, like, it is already
in you, you already are likeyou are good, not like you are

(17:18):
bad, and I think that shift isreally, really important yeah, I
think so and I think you know,I think, like where people get
would push back against that orsomething is in this idea of
like original sin and we have,you know, like we can see, you
know, and I've sometimes evenshared like I think, like the
doctrine of original sin orsomething like that is like for
me it's one of the most easythings to believe in the

(17:40):
Christian tradition, because youcan look out and just see how
much awful there is and howpeople just perpetrate these
horrible things.
And it's not that he hasn'tseen that stuff.
Like you, you listen to thestory, you read the stories that
he's telling and you're like,oh man, he has seen like just
the worst of the worst, likepeople you know abusing their
children and murdering oneanother, you know in cold blood

(18:11):
and and so it's not like that'spart of what's so radical about
his witnesses, that, like youknow that he has seen the truly
awful, tragic stuff and felt itand lived with it and he's not
dismissing it, felt it and livedwith it and he's not dismissing
it, and so and I feel like I'veseen that too.
But I think, like where we goback, at least for me, where I
go back in the stories that likewe were created as good and
there is something in this worldthat like degrades us of who
God made us to be.
And I think he's kind ofpicking up on that part of the
tradition where it's not.
You know he, I think he actuallydoes challenge some of the

(18:32):
doctrines of the Catholic churchin terms of original sin and
those things, but at least, forme, oh, 100%, he's not Orthodox.
No, he can be.
Yeah, like I'm sure, he'soffended many Catholics.
And even some of the things thathe says in there and we'll get
to some of this is likechallenges me.
I'm like, oh, you know, at onepoint he says that Jesus mistook

(18:52):
someone for a demoniac, who wasactually just mentally ill, and
I was like, wait a minute.
Are we allowed to say thatJesus was mistaken about
somebody?
And we'll talk about some ofthat in a minute.
But, yeah, like I think goingback to like even before, the
sense of like the corruptionthat we all kind of have through
our harms and the things thathave happened to us, like kind

(19:13):
of remembering that who we weremade to be is actually good and
I think there's such a that's soimportant and so much of the
church I think just misses thatand then gives us this
self-image of just negativityand I think it limits our
imagination of like who and howwe can be.
I think it gives us a sense oflike worthlessness,

(19:33):
disposability, just kind ofbeating up on ourselves all the
time, when I think the callingis not to be easy on ourselves
and just be like well, dowhatever you want, but it's to
remember that like God hasgoodness, has put goodness in us
and calls us into that goodnessright.

Megan Pardue (19:49):
Yeah, I think actually the subtitle is maybe
important to name because wehaven't named that yet, but this
book is called CherishedBelonging the Healing Power of
Love in Divided Times.
So I say that to say that if westart with brokenness and you're
bad, get good.

(20:10):
One of the things that he talksabout is how that assumption,
like always others and separatesright and increases the divide,
increases our inability to likebe at the table together and
again we can talk about oh, welive in a divided country, et
cetera, et cetera.
Like we're talking about a manwho's buried over 400 young

(20:32):
people because of the dividesthat they live with.
Right, these like I mean thetribalism, the division of gang
violence.
Like the young people havefound a sense of belonging in
place in gangs because theyhaven't had that attachment
elsewhere, right, so he knowsabout division.
Like these are people, like yousaid, working together baking

(20:54):
bread, who have had these reallydeep divides.
Like sometimes we only talkabout division in terms of, like
our current political state andI he speaks to that, yes, but I
, I, you know, I like, I thinkhe challenges us to like move
beyond that and consider some ofthe other ways we're divided
from each other.
But if we, if we start withgoodness and you really look at

(21:15):
someone you disagree with andyou start with goodness, like it
is so much harder to demonize,right.

Chris Nafis (21:26):
It really is.

Megan Pardue (21:27):
It's so much harder, like, oh, like, I'm
trying to get to that place ofgoodness.
If you start there, it changesthe whole conversation right, it
changes everything.

Chris Nafis (21:38):
Yeah, and it's so hard.
I mean so like just to.
He has these two kind of Idon't know what would you call
them Principles that, likeeverything at Homeboy, is
supposed to run by.
That he emphasizes in this bookespecially, but I think it's
been probably laced throughouthis ministry and the first is
that we are all inherently good,no exceptions.
That's what he said, which,again, that sounds like one of

(22:01):
those phrases Everybody would belike oh yeah, and then.
But then you think about it andyou start like putting people
in your head and you're like oh,that actually is really
difficult to do.
And then the second is that webelong to each other, no
exceptions, which again isthere's this like community.
I mean, I love those twoprinciples so much but like when
you actually begin to likethink about what it actually

(22:22):
means, you know and you canthink of the people that you
don't see any goodness in, andwhether that's like politicians
or family members or you knowenemies or people who have done
harm to you or others, and youknow, you just kind of start
like no exceptions.
You know, like it's animportant thing there and it is

(22:45):
like a very radical claim that Ithink is also like so
profoundly Christian, I guess,for you know that it's, I don't
know, like what do you?
What do you?
Where does that challenge you,megan?

Megan Pardue (23:00):
Well, he has a way that he suggests we do this, at
least in this book, which is hesuggests that we practice awe,
that we look at another person,like the person in front of us,
with awe, and that that is oneof the ways that we can tap into

(23:22):
the goodness of God in themalready no exceptions.
So I'm glad he doesn't leave uswithout a way to do it and it's
really hard do it and it'sreally hard.
You know, I've I've wasreflecting this morning in staff
meeting at church and then,knowing we were going to have

(23:42):
this conversation as well, abouta challenging relationship that
I'm in with a person who hassuffered a lot of trauma, and
trauma that's not disconnectedfrom the same kinds of traumas
that we're, you know, talkingabout here.
And I said to the other anotherpastor at our church like I'm,
I'm desiring to get to thisplace of awe, because I do, I

(24:07):
can actually feel it shiftingsomething in me right To like
look at awe, like what thisperson has endured, look with
awe at the fact thateverything's been against them
and they're still making it, andit definitely helps.
And I think this is why wewould call it a practice,

(24:30):
because it's something that youhave to do over and over and
over and over and over againpractice, because it's something
that you have to do over andover and over and over and over
again.
Delight is another word that hedoesn't so much use, but I've
spent some time with Ross Gay'swork over the last couple of
years.
He's a poet and we just read agroup of us at church just read
his book Sorry, wrong book.
He has a book of delights.
We actually read a book calledInciting Joy.
But again like this, thesepractices of like awe or delight

(24:53):
, or noticing these practices oflike awe or delight, or
noticing Boyle quotes MaryOliver like he loves her.
It's so hard to do and it'slike he's offering us a tool to
notice the goodness in peopleand without judgment, right,
like I am in awe of you or I seethe light of God in you.

(25:13):
I don't know how to get there,chris, but I think it's.
It's an incredible startingplace, deeply challenging, and
my guess is that it gets easierthe more that I practice it.

Chris Nafis (25:24):
Yeah, and I think like just another encouragement
for anybody listening thathasn't, like, picked up his
books.
I've found that I guess youknow I've been like I said I've
listened to Cherish Bullhangingnow one time and then, before we
were going to do this, I waslike, oh, I better start
listening to this again.
And I've listened to it on twotimes speed for the last week
trying to get through it most ofit again.
And I listened to Tattoos onthe Heart and I'm halfway

(25:47):
through Barking at the Choir,which is another one of his
books, and like the it's almostlike.
It's almost like I feel the,the repetition of it in my like
I can see why you're kind oflisten to it three times,
because I feel like it's likesinking into me in this way over
and over again about some ofthe way, like the way that he
approaches people and againknowing that he's seen like this

(26:10):
tremendous harm, but still withthis like with such grace and
love, and just like there's justforgiveness and mercy baked
into, like how he sees anotherperson and it's like you can
feel it kind of penetrating you.
You know what I mean, but ittakes.
I'm not there all the wayeither.
I don't think he would say thathe is either.

(26:30):
Yeah, there's something of like,the more you kind of do it and
you open your eyes and begin tosee each other not as the things
that we've done to one anotherin a negative way, but in like
who we can be if we are mostloved is your home.
And he says I don't thinkthat's quite right.
He says I think that love isthe way and that loving is your

(27:00):
home.
Actually, like you are mosthome when you are loving someone
else and just kind of likefinding, like okay, this is
where not only me, but this iswhere all of us find our most
central place of home is when weare actually loving one another
.
Well, and kind of shifting thatperspective on what it means to
be a person, what it means tobe faithful, what it means to be
whole, is such a helpful move,you know, and but then?

(27:23):
So then this is where I wasstruggling because, uh, where
the what I've been strugglingwith in cherished belonging is
that he wants.
So let me just, I want to givehim grace because he's brilliant
and I don't want to challengehim anyway.
This is where I'm just kind ofwrestling through myself.
You know what he says isbasically people who commit
these horrible crimes that, likeno one well does a X, y, z you

(27:47):
know uses like the Las Vegasshooting as an example.
Like no one who is mentallywell you know loads a hotel room
full of guns and then shoots atpeople in a concert and kills
all these people you know like.
And he wants to lump in my mindwhat he's doing and I think he
might even just explicitly bedoing this to say that, like,
essentially, sin or bad behavioror bad decisions, harmful

(28:09):
things that we do to others, areall rooted in mental illness is
where he goes with it, and Ifind that really problematic.
We were talking a little bit, uh, just before we started.
Megan, how did that sit withyou?
Like, what do you?

Megan Pardue (28:24):
well, he knows that this is going to land
poorly with some of us, right,Because he actually says that he
was presenting to like ofcourse, he's asked to speak like
all over the world, right, Allthe time.
And he actually says like I waspresenting this, you know
assumption to a group of mentalhealth professionals and they
didn't like it because theythought I was stigmatizing the

(28:45):
mentally ill.
And he's like, you know, callme new school, but I want to
talk about things.
So he knows that it's going tosit with some of us.
On the one hand, Chris, thankGod that someone is like,
instead of just calling peopleevil or deplorable or whatever
awful ways that we describe oneanother.

(29:06):
On the one hand, thank God thathe's like taking seriously
mental illness and trauma andthe various factors that can
like lead a person to, you know,horrendous acts that are not
loving and are violent.
And I think, on the one hand,I'm like okay, I'm glad we've
named that.
On the other hand, I think thathe takes it farther than I'm

(29:29):
comfortable with.
I think one of the places Ifeel uncomfortable with it.
He spends a lot of time talkingabout racism and kind of lumps
in like racism as mental healthbehavior and it just becomes
like very individualistic.
And I have a pretty communal orsystems and structures kind of

(29:49):
understanding of sin.
So on the one hand, Boyle'swork is like not turning things
upside down for me in his desirefor us to move away from
original sin or this kind of youknow, I mean, I think I can let
that one go, you know, it'sjust like, just to be honest,
All right, I've confessed it onair.
I'm really not stressed aboutbeing Orthodox these days, so

(30:11):
I'm rambling a bit.
I guess I'm with him on that,starting with goodness.
I think the mental health stuffis just like really, really
broad and it makes meuncomfortable in how
individualistic it is.
And it makes me uncomfortablein how individualistic it is
since a lot of sin or I woulduse Paul's language of powers

(30:32):
and principalities are aboutsystems and structures.
Right, my little snippet hereis when Paul talks about powers
and principalities, he's talkingabout things that are both
material in nature, like systemsand structures, and spiritual,
and those are not distinct fromeach other.
Right, we know that systems wetalk about the spirit of
capitalism, Like that's like aphrase we use right, that

(30:54):
structures aren't merelymaterial or merely spiritual,
but that they have both materialand spiritual components.
So we you know the isms are agreat kind of example here.
Racism, sexism, patriotism,these are kind of a driving
force within systems andstructures that keep people from
being liberated, from beingfree or, to use Boyle's language

(31:17):
, from being whole Right likeuncomfortable with how
individualistic the mentalhealth stuff is and also
uncomfortable with some of thelanguage of wellness and health,
because I think you can bewhole when your body is also not
healthy, and so I think there'ssome kind of like, some things

(31:38):
that make me uncomfortable therearound disability or chronic
illness, ableism.
But maybe I've tried to do toomuch in in answering your
question.

Chris Nafis (31:48):
No, no, totally, Because I think you're getting
at a lot of the things that I'mkind of trying to work through
in my own mind, because some ofit not just physically, like the
ableism, but also mentally.
You know there are people thathave chronic mental health
issues and like I guess part ofwhat my response is like, well,
I've seen severe mental illness.
I have it in my congregation Iwork in like acute mental health

(32:10):
facilities.
Like I've seen what that lookslike and it doesn't.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't justsort of like combine that with
like evil or sin or somethinglike that.
Like I think it does drivepeople to bad decisions in a
number of ways.
Like mental health can causepeople to do just wild things

(32:30):
sometimes when people are likehallucinating or when they're
delusional or when they're lost.
But it can also kind of getpeople stuck on themselves and
sort of be self-obsessive andyou know like there's all kinds
of ways that it can.
It can cause people to doproblematic things, but I don't
think that that's the same assomeone who's making decisions
that are like decisions of harm.

(32:52):
I also don't think decisionsthat people make that are
harmful for others are made in avacuum.
Like I do think there's likethere are all these factors
involved, including trauma andmental health and and the bigger
systems and powers.
You know, like when we talkabout racism, for example, like
people, people aren't just bornracist.
You know, like they, they haveit baked in through.

(33:14):
You know, I think there's lotsof influences now.
I think online radicalizationis happening a lot and around
race, race issues, but for a lotof people, they're just born
into family where this is likewhat they're taught to think
about other people that lookdifferent ways.
You know it's trained, but thatthat also doesn't just like
excuse decisions that someonewould make to like commit a hate
crime or something.

(33:35):
You know what I mean.
Like I just think that there'sthere is some culpability that
we have for the decisions thatwe make, and some of that comes
from myself knowing that, likeI've been in, I've made bad
decisions that I don't, I can'texcuse because I was mentally
unwell or because I can blame onmy upbringing or something like
that.
Like I've just been selfish andthat's just the way that it is.

(33:56):
Um and so for me, like part ofI do tend to so, like I feel
like sin has different dynamics.
I'm sorry, I'm talking a lot,megan, I want to get your
opinion on all this.
So, like John Wesley, who we,both of us have been trained at
least in Wesleyan tradition hetalks about sin primarily as
like a known, like knowinglybreaking a known law, right, so

(34:18):
like willfully transgressing aknown law, I think is what he
says, which to me is veryindividualistic, it's very much
like just all my decision.
What he says, which to me isvery individualistic, it's very
much like just all my decision,and I think it neglects the sin
that is described in scriptureby Jesus, by Paul, by so many,
as like this thing that isbeyond us, it's like a power
that you know it's lurking atthe door, it's hunger, is for

(34:39):
you and I think, like to me,that is the primary way that
Jesus, we believe, has overcomesin right, has put to death sin.
But I do think there is some ofthat individual decision making
and I guess what I'm wrestlingwith is like all right, how do
we I don't think mental healthis the way to talk about it, but
how do we helpfully talk aboutsin in a way that invites people

(35:01):
into their goodness,acknowledges the systemic
influences and also doesn't justdismiss, doesn't just
disempower us and say well, youhave nothing to do with your
decisions that you make, becauseI think we do.
You know what I mean.
That's a lot.

Megan Pardue (35:14):
But I guess what is coming to me.
There's like there's lots ofplaces I think I could respond
there.
So, to come back to thelanguage of powers and
principalities, this is likewhere I hang my hat, Like I feel
like I can talk about this allday long.

Chris Nafis (35:28):
I've never seen you wear a hat, megan, do you?

Megan Pardue (35:30):
wear hats.
Oh my gosh, I wear hats so much.
I love hats.

Chris Nafis (35:35):
Oh, I'm sorry when you hang them up, this is where
it is.

Megan Pardue (35:41):
Like sometimes I'm like how many days has it been
since I haven't worn a hat?
That's how much I wear hats.
I'm not wearing a hat, rightnow.
People can't see me, but it'sbecause of my headphones.
So Paul says our struggle isnot against flesh and blood, but
against the rulers, authoritiesand powers of this world or
this dark world, depending onyour translation.
Okay, this is actually sohelpful to me in talking about
sin, because our struggle is notagainst flesh and blood, which

(36:05):
means our struggle is notagainst individual people.
Right, our struggle is against.
So, then, if our struggle isnot against individual people,
then it's easier to say thatpeople can be inherently good.
Right, so our struggle isagainst the rulers, powers and
authorities, or powers andprincipalities of this world,

(36:28):
the systems and structures thathold people captive, that the
work of Christ on the cross andcontinually is inviting us to
get free.
So I think that's really,really helpful as a step towards
being able to both name ourgoodness and say, like we're
captive.

(36:48):
Right, we're caught up in aworld.
In particular, like you said,you're not born racist, but our
whole system in the UnitedStates is like built on a
history of racism.
We live in right, in a I sendmy kids to public school, which
is still in 2025, like dividedacross racial lines.

(37:11):
There's messaging and mediaabout race.
I'm thinking about, especiallyin light of this conversation.
I'm thinking about standing atthe bank one day.
I'm in line and you know,there's this kind of photo at
little warning sign there.
That's like.
You know, fraud is punishableby X, y, z years in prison.

(37:31):
And the messaging in the photois like this pretty racially
loaded image it has a set ofhands holding the bars, and what
color are those hands?
Those are a black man's hands.
Like this messaging is aroundus all the time.
So this is the way thatsomething like racism, I would
say, is pervasive in the systemsand structures in which we live

(37:56):
and eat and go to school and goto church.
Certainly it's around us allthe time.
And the work of Christ is likehow do we get free from that?
How do we confess our sin, ourcomplicity, our participation in
those systems and structures?
For me, as, like a person who iswhite, who has all kinds of
access and privilege that youknow, so many other, I mean

(38:17):
we're just sticking with, likethe US here because it's a big
wide world right that so manyother Americans like don't have
access to, or even the fact thatI can live in a neighborhood
that still has gang activitytoday and my children will not
like the chances that my whiteson is wrapped up in that right

(38:37):
Is like he won't be invited intothat life, whatever.
You know that culture aroundgangs because of race, like.
So I think father Greg is likehe's inviting us to start with
goodness, that we start seeingthe other as bad, and I don't
know if this is helpful, but Ireally just come back to that
over and over again, like ourstruggle is not against flesh

(38:57):
and blood and that means thatit's maybe easier to see the
goodness in a person we disagreewith and it's easier to start
there because it tries to pull.
I think Paul is like trying topull us out of this like blame
game and this superindividualistic understanding of
sin Right.

Chris Nafis (39:13):
And I think that was all over the place.
I don't know if that was clearat all.
No, it was very good and I thinkI think part of what Boyle's
trying to do is to say that,like when this person he wants
to build some compassion andunderstanding across, like our,
our differences and ourfrustrations with one another.
So like when this person isacting racist or or you know

(39:34):
whatever that looks like, whenthey're doing something that
that it just furthers thisracial disparity, or, you know,
like they're treating someonewith prejudice or whatever, but
that's them not being who theywere made to be.
You know what I mean and I thinkI'm all, I'm on board with that
.
I think, like saying thatthat's them exhibiting mental

(39:54):
health issue.
I don't think that's veryhelpful to say, but I think what
he wants to kind of say is that, like when we are made whole
and well, that's when we findour way out of those things, and
that that's where I want tokeep it and that's where I think
, like his primary messagethrough all these books is so
profound Because, as we saidearlier, like it, it forces us,

(40:17):
if we really take that seriously, to see people that we really
struggle with, you know, and tosee them as as people who are
just not fully who they, whothey have the potential to be, I
guess right and that there'salso the other thing I struggle
with a bit in.
That is there is some like kindof paternalism in there where
you're like, well, I know whoyou should be, even if you you

(40:38):
know what I mean like there'ssome some sense of that in there
too.
But but yeah, like the, yeah, Idon't know.
But I also want to maintainsome ability for like, because I
think with that also, like yousaid earlier, it does make it
very individual, right.
So this is just like you as anindividual not being who you are
meant to be, and I wonder if wecan expand those same
principles to like a communalreality of like.

(41:00):
This is not who we were meantto be together you know what I
mean.

Megan Pardue (41:08):
Well, and I actually think that's where his,
that's where the piece aboutsin and mental health gets a
little tricky, is it's reallyindividual, but then kind of his
suggestion for how we to uselike the liberation language,
like for getting free, or orsorry, that's my language with
powers, principalities.
His language would be like and,to be clear, I didn't like make
this language up, this isdrawing from William

(41:28):
Stringfellow, walter Wink,charles Campbell.
That's my language.
Sorry, that felt reallypaternalistic.
Oh, you, megan, claim it.
Man should write that book.
Just kidding, it's been written.
I think that this is where it'skind of funny, because his
method for being whole is whatyou said.
Like the two principles ofHomeboy are everyone is

(41:50):
inherently good, no exceptions,and we belong to each other.
So is that it, chris?
We belong to each other.

Chris Nafis (41:58):
Yeah, we belong to each other, no exceptions.

Megan Pardue (42:01):
So this is how we are no longer strangers to
ourselves, for Boyle, right,this is how we tap into this
kind of therapeutic healing.
This is how we encounter thegoodness of one another is in
how we belong to each other.
So it feels like that's kind ofwhere the argument falls flat a

(42:23):
bit is the individualism ofmental health and sin, but we
need each other in order to bewhole.
So I think that a more communal, less individualistic way of
understanding or talking aboutsin, we can be swept up in that
liberation, and I mean I thinkthat's important, right, if our
struggle is not against fleshand blood.
Like I'm also not going to getfree alone, right, I can't.

(42:46):
And the invitation I think ofPaul in speaking about the
powers and principalities is tolive lives of resistance.
It's not that racism is goingto, like, end overnight, it's
that we're going to continuallyresist it.
Right, we're going to resistour complicity, we're going to
resist our culpability, and andthat is really only possible
when you're doing so alongsideothers, because I need to be

(43:08):
accountable in that work, right,and the accountability comes
when that resistance ishappening in community, when
someone can say, like that, Igot it wrong and then I can say
I'm sorry, I was wrong, or thatI didn't see them or I didn't
see my privilege, whatever themisstep might be.

(43:28):
I need that accountability, andpart of that happens, if not
most of it, in community.

Chris Nafis (43:34):
Yeah, and that's the hard part, that's honestly
like I've emailed Homeboy, I'mlike can you guys send me
someone to talk to?
Because what I want to know if Ihad a conversation with them on
the podcast or just outside ofit is how do they practically
enforce that?
Because I know from being in acontext that's it's not the same
, like we're not, it's not likewe have gang stuff in around our

(43:57):
neighborhood in East villagealso, but it's, but like our,
you know, homelessness is kindof our thing, but it's like a
lot of similar, a lot of similar.
I find a ton of parallelsbetween what he's dealing with
and what we're dealing with andI know that, like and he talks
some about some of thediscipline measures, you know
where, like you can stillrecognize the like, who someone

(44:19):
is, that they are inherentlygood, no exceptions but that
they, that they also are not fitfor this position right now and
that they need, they need thisintervention right now because
they are not themselves and fortheir own good, like we have to,
like they're fired, you knowbecause they're coming, they're
showing up and starting fightsor you know they're showing up

(44:39):
high or whatever, and thatthat's where I think it gets
really like it's really hard toactually live well that way.
But like having those principlesbehind all of those things I
guess can be like a guide as youmake decisions around community
.
And not everyone's in thatposition of like employing
people, but I think even innormal church communities or in
family dynamics, family systemsor whatever, like we do still

(45:02):
have to have some boundaries andsome accountability to one
another, but without losing thesense, without like demonizing
the other person.

Megan Pardue (45:10):
Yeah, I mean he says I don't think it's in this
book, but in a couple otherplaces like I love you so much,
you are so good, we want you tobe here.
You cannot be here until you'reclean, like.
So I think that there's andthis is like that we would not
say the same of like someoneworshiping in a church community

(45:30):
, but this particular program,like it's a program and they
have really very clearboundaries.
I think this is a place thatclear, is kind, right, like
they're, like we'll pay forrehab, like we'll send you there
, like come back when you'resober, um, come back when you
have I don't, I don't know theexact like number of days, um,
and you know, I think peoplehave to negotiate, that.

(45:52):
Every community has to likenegotiate that.
I think that the invitation,like you've said, chris, is to
negotiate that with like a deepsense of goodness instead of
starting from like a place ofgoodness and worth and not like
failure or shame.

Chris Nafis (46:07):
Yeah, yeah, he tells a story of a guy.
There's like a dispute at Iforget which one of his
workplaces is, or if he evensays, but you know, there's like
a essentially a fight breakingout and one of the guys
basically goes and gets a gunand is trying to come back into
the place to potentially shootor at least threaten someone.
And one of the managers, who'slike a longtime homeboy employee

(46:31):
, like well-respected,well-loved guy, has to basically
confront this guy who has a gunand say, like you're not, you
can't come in there.
And the guy's like I'm, youknow threatens to shoot him and
he says, well, you can shoot me.
And he talks about how this guy, in reflection, was like I
thought those were the lastmoments of my life and I thought
that my he's like, I thoughtthat you know, I was gonna die

(46:51):
and I thought, well, at leastI'm dying a good death and
instead of like what I wouldhave died, you know, 30 years
ago, of a meaningless death onthe streets and and the guy
doesn't end up shooting him.
But then this guy who had goneand gotten the gun, um, he tells
a story of how he comes backlike I think it's like 10 years
later and sees the same, thesame person who had confronted

(47:13):
him, and they, like you know it,says you know, am I allowed
back here?
And he gives him a hug and hebasically says welcome home.
You know, and there's suchprofundity in that, like there's
forgiveness in like there was aboundary that was held, a
confrontation that was thatrequired self-sacrifice or a
willingness to sacrifice himselfand, you know, an expulsion,

(47:34):
like he was out, like he's nolonger works there, obviously
after he's trying to shootsomeone in the place.
But there's always that sort ofwelcome home when the time
comes for the healing.
You know, like in the sensethat, like this is, this is home
.
You were not home when you hadthe gun, but like in coming here
with a, with reconciliation andlove in your heart, like that's

(47:56):
when you're actually home.
I don't know, I found thatexample very profound in terms
of like thinking through ourministries at Living Water and
how we can kind of do some ofthe you know, because we have we
haven't had people come in witha gun yet, but that I know of
but you know like having to makesome of those same hard
decisions of like you can't behere right now and how to do

(48:18):
that but still not lose the.
We are all inherently good noexceptions and we belong to one
another no exceptions.
Even the person that we may beasking to leave right now still
belongs to us, which is also areally challenging thing.

Megan Pardue (48:31):
Right, well, you, I just you know to all the
listeners.
I just like, I beg you tolisten to one of his books, read
one of his books because, likeyou know, chris is like choking
up over here.
I'm choking up, we're justrecounting the story.
You will listen or read, youwill cry.
There's such a sense of healing.

(48:59):
And I'll say as we close, that Iinteract with a lot of people
who are done with church or donewith faith and don't know
what's real or where to find God, or wonder if are people really
still following Jesus?
Cause, like I look out and Isee suffering and I just wonder,
like, where, where are theChristians?
Greg Boyle is who I send themto, like he's my guy for and and
honestly, like not just to,like send people to, but like

(49:19):
when I read him like my faith,even though he spent, you know,
15 minutes talking about likeplaces where we're uncomfortable
or maybe disagreed some, butlike he's a person, a follower
of Jesus, that like, not justlike restores my faith, but like
sweeps me up in God's goodnesstoo, like I also belong, not as

(49:50):
like pastor, not as mother orpartner, like as Megan, like
this, this deep sense of God'sradical, like goodness and me
that's nurtured, as I feel likeI kind of just like sit at his
feet and I'm invited into yeah,my inherent goodness and
belonging.

Chris Nafis (49:56):
Yeah, I'll, I'll.
I'll just say I echo all ofthat Check out his books and
then let us know, let me know,talk to somebody about them like
share, share, read it and thengive the book to somebody else
and allow it to be somethingthat kind of permeates you for
living water.
Folks Like I would highlyrecommend this as we continue
our life together and anybodyelse listening.

(50:18):
You know, like I said, there'sa couple, a couple of points
where I'm like ah, that makes mea little by and large, like I'm
finding these books profoundlyinfluential and in a good way,
and I'm going to continuereading.
There's still a few books of histhat I haven't read yet.
Megan, thank you so much forcoming and spending the time.
I hope this won't be the lasttime you come.
Maybe I'll get talking tocoming on again and talk about

(50:39):
something else, but we love you,appreciate you and, you know,
hope you'll come to San Diegosometime soon.
We, you and you know, hopeyou'll come to San Diego
sometime soon.
We haven't seen you guys in awhile.
Thanks, pastor, chris, takecare, all right, bye.