October 7, 2025 • 59 mins
The gates still close at 7 p.m. along Belfast’s longest segregation wall, but inside a small youth center, something braver is opening: kids learning to cross lines their grandparents feared. We sit down with Stephen Hughes—42 years in youth work, 13 in Lower Falls—to unpack how a simple, radical method turns inherited prejudice into shared purpose.
Stephen paints the full picture: two Christian communities divided by politics, bound by grief, and weighed down by poverty that grows heavier the closer families live to the wall. His team’s answer is disarmingly human. Start with play, build trust, and let children make one friend across the divide. As they age, add depth: honest dialogue about identity, faith, and power; strength-based mentoring that treats all behavior as communication; and exposure to voices that rarely meet—faith leaders, police, ex-combatants, victims, and peacebuilders. Nothing is off the table, and dignity is non-negotiable.
We follow real stories—from a first meeting that erupted in a fistfight to two former rivals now hosting sleepovers; from reactionary crisis work to a proactive strategy where teens plan cross-community hangouts and take civic ownership of their streets. They repaint hateful slogans, create photo exhibits that reframe the interface, and produce films that chart their journey from suspicion to solidarity. Along the way, churches model a new kind of leadership: humble, cooperative, and grounded in care rather than tribe.
If you’re navigating polarization, propaganda, or rising far-right fear, this conversation offers a replicable path: safe spaces for hard truths, reflection that reshapes language and behavior, and steady mentorship that builds moral character. Share this with someone who needs hope, subscribe for more grounded peacemaking stories, and tell us: what’s one divide you’re ready to cross this week?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Nafis (00:00):
Hey, welcome back to the card.
This is Pastor Chris Neifus ofLiving Water Church.
I'm saying I'm delighted tohave Stephen Hughes join me.
He is the director of St.
Peter's Youth Center in LowerFalls community in Belfast,
Northern Ireland.
Got to visit him when I was inNorthern Ireland earlier this
summer.
And he's doing profound workamong the youth in this place
(00:22):
that is historically one of thetouch points, the flash points
of the violence and the divisionin Northern Ireland.
He had for 13 years in thisplace and for 42 years has been
doing youth work in NorthernIreland, helping to raise a
generation that's ready forpeace and that is being
transformed by love and hope andready to build a new community
(00:44):
and a new life for themselvesand for their neighbors.
I hope that you find thisconversation inspiring,
especially in the midst of anincreasingly divided country in
our own context.
Here it is, all right.
(01:13):
Well, Steven, thank you so muchfor uh spending a little time
just talking to me about what'sgoing on there in Belfast.
Uh, appreciate you being herewith me at all.
Um, so a lot of our folks, uh Ijust mentioned this before I
hit record, but a lot of ourfolks may not know a ton about
like the history of the troublesand the history of Belfast.
Um, can you tell me a littlebit about your like your
(01:34):
neighborhood and and what led tokind of the context that you're
in now?
Stephen Hughes (01:39):
Well, I'm I'm the youth worker in charge of
what is the a small, charitableor not-for-profit organization
um that works with young peoplefrom six to twenty five years of
age.
Um, we are the church'soutreach to the young people of
Lower Falls.
(01:59):
And Lower Falls is a is a smallcommunity, um, right on the the
edge of Belfast City Centre,the main shopping hub of
Belfast.
Um, we're a community that hasbeen impacted quite severely um
by the conflict that took placein Ireland.
It is where the the violencebegan in 1969 in in Belfast,
(02:26):
here in Lower Falls.
Um it's also a community thatis segregated.
We have a large peace wall,which is sort of 30 foot high,
that segregates two Christiancommunities.
But on one side of the wall, wehave people who want Ireland to
be united, to be an all-Irishisland again.
(02:49):
And on the other side of thewall, we have people who want to
uh retain Northern Ireland asas part of Britain.
So politically, the twocommunities are divided, but we
are in the main a Christiancommunity together.
And it it's uh it's a communitythat has a legacy of of violent
(03:12):
conflict, political conflict.
Um, it's a community that hashundreds of years of
legacy-related issues that areeconomic issues, mainly poverty.
Um, for example, in 1903,Carnegie came over from the
United States.
(03:32):
Scottish industrialist made hismoney in America, um, came here
and he was impacted by thepoverty that he saw.
And he built three libraries,uh, one here in Lower Falls, uh,
one in another community, uh aunionist community not far from
here, and the Donegal Road, andone in Old Park Road in North
(03:55):
Belfast.
And those were the three mostimpoverished communities in 1904
when the three libraries wereopen.
Still to this day, 120 yearslater, um, they remain three of
the most impoverishedcommunities.
Do you know?
So um, in 1972, this communitywas the most impoverished
community in Europe, not even inIreland or the UK, but in
(04:17):
Europe.
Um, and I'm I'm sure that thatmade a contribution to the the
issues we had around theconflict.
Yeah.
Chris Nafis (04:26):
Those those political one of the things is
interesting to see there when wecame, because you know, we came
in not really, you know, weread up and I I kind of learned
a little bit about the historyand things, but didn't, you
know, it's different to be thereand kind of see it.
Um, but how those thatpolitical divide is still very
much very much alive, right?
Like people still have strongfeelings about their different
(04:48):
political preferences in termsof uh where to be what state to
be loyal to, what republic, thatkind of thing.
Stephen Hughes (04:54):
I um am conflicted by that sometimes.
Um I think there's a there's acouple of generations who hold
on to the to the past and to theviolence of the past and to the
prejudice and and hateassociated with the past.
Um I think in in the work thatI do with children and young
(05:18):
people, I think the young peopleare moving on from that.
We're seeing a new generationcoming through that that don't
want that that baggage of theconflict, and they're they're
looking for something different.
Yeah.
And I think the young people umthat we work with, um, they
keep they keep saying to us,this is your problem, you know,
(05:40):
as in my generation.
You know, it's just we we don'twant that.
That that's like leave thatwith views, and we're gonna have
a different life.
And I think that's possibly umI think that's potentially the
future.
The future is that when ourgenerations die off, hopefully
we'll have a more pluralist,interdependent, and respectful
(06:01):
society.
Um the the divisions thatremain in Northern Ireland at
the moment tend to be incommunities where you're seeing
poverty, where you're seeing thethe socioeconomic issues, um,
driving fear and and supposedepending on the the hurt and
(06:25):
pain of the past, to keepcommunities apart.
Yeah.
So it it's a very uh yeah, thethe the youthful element of our
society are moving on and wantsomething different, but there's
like a couple of generationsthat are still there that keep
dragging us back to the past.
And it also suits some of ourpoliticians as well.
(06:47):
Like some our politicians cansometimes uh can exploit that
fear for their own politicalinterests, and that sometimes um
frustrates me really badly.
Yeah, yeah.
But in in um in the communitieswhere I work, they are great
(07:10):
communities, they're cultured,they're caring, they're
compassionate, they are theywant to help each other, um,
they want to grow, and and theywant something different, they
want something better for theirchildren and young people, which
I love to see.
And I think that's what keepsme going in the job, Joe.
Chris Nafis (07:27):
Yeah, well, and that's a big part of what you've
been working towards for yearsnow, right?
How long have you been how longhave you been doing this?
Stephen Hughes (07:33):
I've been here.
Well, that's the this is in myI'm getting into my 13th year
now in this community, but I'vebeen a youth worker now my 42nd
year.
Um, and I've always worked,well, the majority of the time
I've worked in in communitiesthat have been impacted by the
conflict.
Yeah.
Um, or are communities thathave um been dealing with
(07:54):
complex and legacy issues.
Um I I've never worked in a badcommunity.
I I've never left the communityand went, no, that's I really
don't ever want to go backthere.
So my my youth work here, Isuppose initially I was told
don't do this, don't go there,because the the community had
(08:14):
such a bad reputation.
But once I got into thecommunity and met the people and
engaged the young people, Isuddenly found that um this this
is not a bad community at all.
It's just misunderstood.
And also it was uh it was acommunity that had really
(08:34):
complex issues and baggage fromthe past that held young people
back.
Do you know?
And I think once we helpedyoung people understand, uh do
their own analysis and their owninterpretation, because we
don't um we don't help educateyoung people in that way.
(08:56):
We support young people to makebetter decisions themselves
through their own education.
But um I think our youngpeople, um once they got the
opportunity to examine andexplore some of the issues, you
find quickly that they they theyare smart and they can move on,
you know.
And and we see a lot of thatnow today.
Chris Nafis (09:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think in our context too, you
see a lot of people frustratedwith certain people groups.
So in my context, a lot offolks that are uh experiencing
homelessness and on the streetand people very frustrated about
you know behaviors, like thethe way that those folks kind of
present to the rest of thecommunity, but it's really a
lack of understanding thedifficulties and the challenges
(09:38):
that they face that creates allof that kind of reputation and
stuff.
Is that kind of what you'resaying with the youth in your
yeah?
Stephen Hughes (09:45):
I I I I'm finding um one of the one of the
big challenges that I'm findingat the moment um is young
people being exploited for otherpeople's political agenda.
And and whether that be umpolitical hatred, we we're we're
(10:05):
seeing a significant uh rise inthe far right.
And far right fascistorganizations who blame black
and brown people are to behonest, they they blame
everybody but themselves.
They take no responsibility fortheir own um their own role in
society, so it's easier uh topoint the finger.
(10:26):
That can be political and itcan be personal and economic
gain by some people.
You know, we're we're seeingwe're seeing people in in the UK
who are replicating some of theissues that we're seeing in the
United States at the moment.
So uh that that fear is used umto exploit children and young
(10:49):
people into uh an educationthat's really not honest or
true.
And I suppose our job is is tohelp young people work through
that.
Yeah.
You know, help understandwhat's happening to them, see
when they're being and andrealize when they're being
exploited or are misinformed orare manipulated.
(11:11):
Um I think that's one of ourbig challenges at the moment, is
around that issue of of uh fearof black and brown people, um
that leads to hatred, that leadsto discrimination.
Do you know it's it's brutal.
Um and it's and it's new to ushere in Northern Ireland and in
(11:33):
Ireland in general, um we thinkwe have a huge big problem with
new immigrant communities.
It's less than three percent ofour population.
Do you know?
So we are still a very white,majority white Christian
conservative society, do youknow?
But um when you when you listento to some of the messages that
(11:57):
young people are being fed, andwe and in Ireland in
particular, we have some awfulum people who are exponents of
that fear manifestation and thathatred of of black and brown
people, but it's normally foryou when you when you when you
watch it and you follow themoney, it's normally
(12:17):
self-interest, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Nafis (12:21):
So how do you cut through that?
I mean, uh, you know, we'rewrestling with the same things
here where there's kind ofpropaganda type stuff coming
from all multiple differentdirections and trying to figure
out how to help people discernlike what's true and what's
manipulative.
I don't know, have you figuredanything out?
Stephen Hughes (12:38):
For us, it's time and space.
Yeah.
Conversation.
We we're we're uh ourorganization is um all of our
interventions tend to bedialogical.
So um it's sitting down withyoung people and providing that
safe space to have reallycontentious conversations.
Do you know where they can theycan say um what they what
(13:02):
they're what they're feeling,what they're hearing, what
they're believing.
Um they can say that in a safespace, but our job in in news
services is to improveself-awareness, to use
reflective practice and and andchallenge to make them think
about what it is they're sayingand why they're saying it.
Um I just feel that uh maybe wewe're maybe not spending enough
(13:31):
time on the the issues ofethnicity and identity, um, but
we have some really great piecesof work that have helped.
Like we've we've a really greatproject here in Ireland at the
moment called Black and Irish,um which is absolutely wonderful
at challenging some of that olduh rhetoric that's coming
around.
Um but we also have uh reallygood partnerships with our our
(13:56):
new ethnic communities thatsupport the the young people,
the black and brown young peoplewho use our project, do you
know, because it's uh it's asafe space for them.
And no matter what you are, whoyou are, what your abilities
are, what your sexualorientation, what your practice
around is, this is a safe spacefor children and young people.
(14:16):
Um we we we it's one of ourcore ethics, you know.
Um so even when young peopleare being f being fed this
misinformation and and then someof the um the rhetoric that
they're hearing through socialmedia, it's a place for them to
have those conversations.
Chris Nafis (14:35):
Yeah, so just creating a space for it and
having the conversations and theencounters.
I mean, uh what you shared withus when we were there was a lot
about, you know, we weretalking more about the the old
divide, right?
The wall division and how a bigpart of what you all were doing
was just really intentionallyhelping people forge friendships
with people on the other sideof the wall, right?
And that was like a big part ofthe healing.
(14:57):
I mean, maybe can you share alittle bit about like your your
locate, like the your the youthorganization, the youth center,
and like specifically what youall are doing?
Because I, you know, I've maybeI jumped the gun there a little
bit.
Stephen Hughes (15:09):
Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying to provide
a geographical image in yourlisteners and your listeners'
heads.
Um we are either side of a of amain road.
So on we're on this side of theroad, which is the pro-Irish
nationalist Catholic community,on directly just just at this
(15:33):
side of the building here, um,is a large 30-foot wall that
segregates us from anotherChristian community on the other
side of the wall, which ismainly Protestant, mainly
unionist, and mainly loyalist.
These are two, excuse me, twoof the most impoverished
communities in the country.
On both sides.
(15:54):
On both sides.
Yep.
Yeah.
Um they are two communitiesthat have been significantly
hurt during the conflict.
It's probably with the majorityof people who have either died,
they've either been victims ofthe conflict or perpetrators of
the conflict, either side ofthat.
They are complex.
The complexities are poverty,um, poor housing, um, poor
(16:19):
health, poor education, um,higher than average crime rates.
So they're very, very complexcommunities.
And all too often the the thegates close.
So you can I can walk from now,what time's it?
Yeah, it's it's almost 6 p.m.
here.
I can walk through to my friendand colleague on the other
(16:41):
side, Ruth, who runs TownsendStreet Youth Center.
That's that's my partner group,and we work together on
everything.
I can walk there until 7o'clock.
At 7 o'clock, the gates closeautomatically, and it I then
have to take a detour throughBelfast City Centre to get to
her building, which is 100metres away.
(17:02):
You know, so it becomes itbecomes complex.
But that segregation is notjust um it's it's it doesn't
happen in the majority ofcommunities.
It happens in a small number.
It's probably about 90communities have these walls
that that segregate them.
Our wall is the longestsegregation wall outside of
(17:26):
Israel-Palestine.
And it goes from Belfast CityCentre to the mountain.
It's about eight knives.
Yeah, and it keeps the the twocommunities apart.
And we call them peace walls.
So the idea is that the wallskeep people from fighting and
and and um and being violentwith each other.
(17:49):
I would I I don't ever recallor don't ever call them peace
walls.
I call them segregation wallsbecause that's ultimately what
they do, they keep they keepcommunities apart.
Now, I don't live in thiscommunity where I work.
I get into my car and I drivehome.
I'm about eight miles out theroad, and I live in a mixed
(18:10):
community.
My next door neighbor um is isnot of my tradition or my
politics.
But why do we not have a wallsegregating us?
You know, we're both Christian,we have different traditions,
different faiths, different umpolitics.
But why do we not need a wallto segregate us and not in our
(18:34):
community?
So to me, there's somethingdifferent in the community that
I work in, and that to me thethe the manifestation of of what
we see in this community ispoverty.
There's also there's also umthe closer you live to the wall,
the more impoverished you areas a family.
(18:58):
You tend to be more unemployed,so you're you're benefit
dependent, or what do you usecall them food stamp?
You're food stamp dependent,you're unhealthier, the closer
you live to the wall.
That's mental health, physicalhealth, emotional health.
You are more prone to crime,you know.
(19:18):
You're less uh you underachievein education, so you the the
opportunities for achievement ineducation are less, and and as
a result, then employment areless.
So it's a self-perpetuating, umit's a self-perpetuating
environment.
Yeah.
So it is so but the walls,people, it's funny, we we do an
(19:40):
environment, we have aleadership program every year um
where we take 20 young leadersand we work with them, we do an
environmental audit, we sendthem out into the community to
do an audit of what the bigenvironmental issues are in the
community.
And I've done that now fouryears, and not once have the
young people come back and saidthe walls are an environmental
(20:01):
issue.
They'll talk about airpollution, they'll talk about
lack of green space, they'lltalk about all the issues,
graffiti, fire lighting, all thenormal sort of environmental
issues that you get.
But they don't see the walls.
They don't understand that thewalls, these this wall that
segregates these twocommunities, has a serious
(20:23):
environmental, economic, socialimpact on their lives because
they're so used to it.
It's just normalized insociety.
So the the the walls are areare uh to me are the single
biggest issue after poverty.
Yeah.
Chris Nafis (20:40):
Well, because it's symbolic too, right?
Like there's this symbolism ofa past, I mean, uh I don't know
if you call it past, but likethis past conflict that the
older generations, as you said,are uh carry.
I mean, they have there'sliving memory of people who have
been murdered and you know,real serious violence.
And the young people don't havethat living memory in the same
(21:01):
way as the older generations,but the remnants of it in terms
of like trauma, in terms of themessaging that they're getting
from probably from parents,family members, big older folks
in the community, and then fromthis visible physical thing
that's like dividing theircommunity is still very much a
part of their life, but it'sjust so normalized.
I don't know.
Yeah, is that part of what doyou think just helping people
(21:21):
just actually come to see it,the part of the self-awareness
that you're talking about andhelping people grow beyond?
Stephen Hughes (21:27):
There most definitely is a um a peace
dividend.
Excuse me, there's mostdefinitely a peace dividend um
from from the walls, and there'salmost like a tourist element
now that people come to see thethe dividing walls, much like
many of us did when Berlin'swall came down.
(21:48):
We all went to see the parts ofthe walls that remained.
Chris Nafis (21:51):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (21:51):
But I think there's a there's a problem with
that.
The problem is in in thisprocess, apart, apart from the
conflict in Belfast beginning inthis community, so also did the
peace process.
You know, Jerry Adams, JohnHume, and Father Alec Reed, when
they first met in thiscommunity in Clonard Monastery,
(22:11):
um, to talk about how theybrought an end to the political
violence, also began in thiscommunity.
So there is an appetite forsomething that's different.
There is an appetite in thiscommunity for a new order, as
such.
So the the the community, thiscommunity in the end, voted for
(22:34):
the ceasefire in 1994 and votedfor the for the um the Belfast
Agreement and all subsequentagreements that have come
forward.
This community has continued tosupport them, even though the
community itself has had verylittle benefit or dividend as a
(22:55):
result of the peace process.
You know, I think it's onlynow, and it's probably two
generations now, we're we're 27years um after after the
ceasefire of 1998.
We're we're not we stillhaven't moved on.
And I think one of the bigproblems in the in the whole
(23:15):
process is that we've neveractually reconciled each other
as as two communities inconflict.
And I think that's that andit's not a lack of compassion as
such, but it's recognition ofthe hurt that we that we've done
on each other and takingownership over that hurt, and
(23:36):
then uh like amending our orapologizing and and bringing
some reconciliation to thatprocess.
And I think until we do that,and and and I think about
Ramsbottom's book ContemporaryConflict Resolution, he talked
about reconciliation being uhalmost like a camel's hump.
Um and in Northern Irelandterms that the pinnacle of that
(23:59):
hump is reconciliation.
And 27 years after the afterthe conflict, 27 years of
ceasefire, we still haven't madethat stage yet.
Do you know?
So there's a there's still ajourney ahead.
And I I really hope I reallyhope and pray that um it comes
(24:20):
in our generation, but I suspectit's gonna follow our children.
Chris Nafis (24:24):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (24:24):
Yeah.
To take us through thatprocess.
Chris Nafis (24:27):
Well, and you're doing the work to help bring
that about, right?
So what what is it, you know,all that's kind of the
background of what you'reactually doing, but what you're
actually doing is welcoming abunch of like loud, rambunctious
kids, energetic kids, into theyouth center to play games, and
you know, you guys have likeping pong and video games and
all kinds of fun stuff that youguys do.
(24:48):
You go on you go on haveevents, and I've seen videos of
you guys doing giant, you know,uh slip and slide type things.
Like well, what are you alldoing?
What are you doing?
Stephen Hughes (24:58):
The the the the fun activities that you talk
about are very normal growing upuh games and activities and fun
that normal society and normalpeer groups of children should
have.
But it's not really what we'reabout.
What we're about is arelational-based service.
(25:18):
Um, I think about I think aboutum communities that have been
impacted by trauma and violence,um, are fearful and mistrusting
of difference.
So, what we want to try and dohere is is using the
relationship with the the adultyouth worker is to take young
(25:40):
people through a life journey.
And we we use a socialpedagogue model so the youth
worker walks beside the youngperson as they make decisions in
life.
Do you know?
So we put them into, and I tellmy young people, I'm gonna make
you feel uncomfortable, I'mgonna put you in uncomfortable
(26:01):
situations so that you learnfrom them.
I'm gonna help you reflect, I'mgonna help you self-analyse and
become more self-aware.
Um I'm gonna give youexperiences that are gonna
broaden your horizons, that aregonna test your faith, that are
gonna um challenge everythingabout you.
Do you know your fears, yourmistrusts, your hatred and your
(26:23):
prejudice, all of those thingsare gonna be challenged by the
experiences that we provide.
And and to be fair, the thework that we do with Ruth and in
Townsend Street across theacross the divide, um has has
it's almost like graded in termsof the the learning objectives.
The little ones, the the sortof seven, six, seven to
(26:47):
eleven-year-olds, there's onlyone objective, Chris.
And that objective is to make afriend on the other side of
that wall.
That's all I want my kids todo.
Have experience of people whoare of different faith, who are
of different political opinion,who are different status or
ability or whatever, and justmake a friend, just have someone
(27:10):
who you can say, my friendCharlie lives on the shingle.
And and just in doing that,playing games together, having
fun together, um they suddenlybegin to realize Charlie's not
different from me.
Do you know?
Actually, Charlie's very, verylike me, you know, and and maybe
(27:31):
very different to someone of adifferent economic status, do
you know?
And then it grows as they getinto the we call it the
pre-teens, that's sort of 12 to14 years, we up the the um
learning objectives, and and westart involving some of the more
contentious issues aroundidentity and faith and politics.
(27:51):
And and then when they go fromthe from the 14 to 17 years, it
gets very deep and heavy interms of um social justice, um,
citizenship, civicresponsibility, civic identity,
um, and then social action.
What is it you do?
And that's why we call it theambassadors program.
(28:14):
We we ask of our older youngpeople, what's your
contribution?
What sort of a community do youwant for your children?
Do you want segregation?
Do you want your children togrow up with hate and prejudice
and discrimination and violence?
And and the kids don't wantthat.
You know, they want better thanwhat we had, which I think is
(28:36):
wonderful.
So the program grows with age,um and and it is successful.
Like we know it is changing, uhit's impacting violence, it's
impacting attitudes, it'simpacting knowledge, it's
impacting moral character, youknow, it's impacting faith.
(29:00):
So all of these things are allum they're all improvements in
the lives of our children andyoung people.
And sometimes sometimes our ourbecause they're quite young,
they still don't process this,um, and sometimes it takes it
can take years for this toembed.
Um and I it was uh of acontinuous story.
(29:21):
Um we were at a a recent um alittle bit of violence had
erupted at the wall, and uh meand a couple of colleagues on
either side of the wall went tothat went to that Lonarkway
gates, it's not far from here,and we went to the gates to try
(29:41):
and break the young the twogroups of young people up from
getting involved in violence.
Now the violence hadn'terupted, but the young people
moved, they're quite through,they have WhatsApp chat rooms.
Well, they'll go, right, theyouth workers here, so we'll
move somewhere else.
And they moved up the road.
But two of my youth workersfollowed the group up the road.
And I stayed at the gates.
(30:01):
Um, I was on my own, um, therewas nobody else here, and
suddenly this car pulls inbeside me very quickly, startled
me, and I went, and the window,the window came down, and it
was a a grown adult, it was aman, father of three children
who I'd worked with a number ofyears earlier.
(30:22):
And he says, he shouts out thewindow, Hey, you still doing
this?
I says, Yeah, I'm just we'restill trying.
And he went, thank God, hesays, um, because I have some
great friends on this side ofthe wall now because of you.
So we know it works.
You know, we we have seenrelationships develop, we've
seen attitudes change, we'veseen behaviors change.
(30:44):
Um, and I think young peoplehave moved on from my generation
who continue to carry theexperiences of the past.
Um and hopefully what we willsee is something new in the
future.
Chris Nafis (30:57):
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, I mean, where do youfind uh the challenge?
You know, so like you talkabout the younger kids, the the
first level kids coming and justthe only goal is just to make
another friend.
Do they find that easy to doonce they're actually put in
that situation?
Is that where what are thechallenges?
Stephen Hughes (31:15):
I'll I'll go on tell you another story.
So we we brought the we broughtthe groups together back.
We we our program starts everySeptember.
So we brought the groupstogether here in this youth
center um in September.
There was about 30, um, sort ofseven to 10-year-olds who we we
do game sessions, icebreakers,drama starters, that sort of
(31:38):
thing.
Um we had them all playinggames, getting them introduced,
playing name games, having fun.
Um and these two little lads,10 years of age, clearly did not
like each other.
The language was the languagewas let's let's just say it was
(32:00):
pretty fluid um and and prettyabusive.
Um ended up in a fist fight.
I mean the two of them knockedthe rump out of each other.
Staff jumped in, got themapart, tried to talk to them,
blah, blah.
Nothing was working.
They just hated each other,they called each other all the
(32:20):
bad names of each other.
Um yeah, that was it.
We sort of went, right, that'sit, that's a mess.
Um, we're not gonna get thesetwo groups together, we're not
gonna get these two groups, butwe persevered.
These two kids now are the bestof friends.
These two kids now stay in eachother's houses.
(32:41):
Their parents have chat roomswhere they talk.
Are you dropping them over thisweekend?
Are we staying with you?
And like they go on tripstogether.
Two of them are the best offriends.
The two kids were very, veryalike and come from very, very
similar backgrounds and similarfamilies.
So sometimes it's it just takesa wee bit of perseverance.
(33:02):
Um that that was a difficultsituation at the start of the
little ones project.
Yeah, the opposite happenedthis year with the older ones.
So the older ones this year, webrought them together in July.
Um, we we had our we had ourinitial session, which was uh
telling the young people whatthe project was, this is the 14
(33:23):
to 17 years.
We were telling them what theproject looks like, um, what's
what's going to be involved,what techniques we use, we're
not gonna make them feelcomfortable, etc.
Um, and we took them away onresidential, took them away for
the weekend to camp.
And we were worried, after theprevious experience with the
little ones, we were worriedthat this is gonna be difficult
(33:43):
because older teenagers, theycan be a bit more toxic in terms
of their their belief systemand their experiences.
And it was the opposite, Chris.
We actually we are stilltalking about it as workers now,
it's only a few months in, butwe're still talking about um how
well this worked, howsuccessful it was, how quickly
(34:05):
they they developedrelationships, um, how quickly
they trusted each other.
They now come in and out ofeach other's communities.
They're they're organizingtheir own events and their own
activities in Belfast CityCenter.
Um and and to us, this this wasdone without, I mean, any
(34:27):
hindrance, any barriers.
It was like I'm still shocked.
I know we're only a couple ofmonths in.
I'm still shocked by it.
unknown (34:35):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (34:36):
Do you know?
We still have the teenagetantrums, we still have
huffiness.
We had an incident last night,we were on the peace line last
night, um, with the grouptalking about the impacts of the
peace war.
Um, and there was a bit of atantrum last night.
So there was.
But it was an internal tantrum,an internal tantrum by a small
group of young women.
(34:57):
Do you know?
And had really nothing to dowith the bigger good relations
or cross-community contact.
It was just some young womenhad a fallout with each other,
but it manifested itself in thegroup last night.
That group is is absolutelyshattering us how well and how
quickly the group has got ontogether.
And and it makes it it actuallymakes the the work exciting
(35:21):
going forward.
Yeah.
Because you you don't knowwhat, you don't know where this
group's going.
Because we start introducing,we've started introducing some
of the contentious issues.
So we talk about identity,we've already started that,
we're talking about definitionsof sectarianism, power,
oppression, discrimination.
Um, we're we've now entered in,we've uh uh an element of the
(35:42):
program called exposure, wherethe young people get exposed to
the most the more contentiousissues.
So they have to meet faithleaders, the the the two
Christian traditions, theProtestant and Catholic
traditions.
So they have to meet faithleaders, they have to meet
police, they have to meetex-combatants, people who hated
each other, a British soldier,uh loyalist paramilitary, and a
(36:03):
Republican paramilitary.
Um they have to meet uh thevictims, and what's the fifth
one?
Oh, and peace builders.
So that that element of theprogram is called exposure.
And it's uh it's almost like aa truth share type situation
where young people have the it'sa very open and safe
(36:25):
environment.
They the workshop facilitatorswho come and and deliver on the
themes, they know that the youngpeople have the opportunity to
ask any questions.
Nothing's off the table.
And now you get some questionsthat are more interesting than
than others, you know.
(36:45):
But um it's a process, and someof that I think um it excites
me going forward how well thisgroup has scaled as a friendship
group, what what might be thepotential in them and in them
working through the workshops,better understanding the
concepts of of sectarianism andwhat it looks like and how it
(37:08):
manifests itself in our society.
It's exciting.
Chris Nafis (37:12):
And do you do you feel like that's a big change
just generationally from likewhen you first came here 13
years ago or when you firststarted doing this work 40 years
ago?
You know what I mean?
Like, is that is that a notionof the conflict?
Stephen Hughes (37:24):
Is it fun it's real it's really funny you asked
that question because um I'mhere 13 years and I think we're
we're in a a transition periodhere at the moment.
For the first 13 years, for thefirst five years, um nobody
supported the organization,nobody supported the work,
(37:47):
nobody trusted anybody in theorganization.
Um and and to be fair, we wewere attacked, my car was
attacked, we received deaththreats, all of those sorts of
things happened in the firstsort of four or five years.
Um in the subsequent eightyears, um we have not that we've
worn down the community, but Ithink we've proved to the
(38:09):
community that um we're here forthe best interest of the young
people.
Yeah.
And that has changed.
And I we're we're we funny, thestaff team were away um at the
start of September talking aboutthis very subject, and we
believe we're in a transitionperiod.
So for the previous 13 years,everything that we've been doing
(38:30):
has been reactionary,firefighting, responding to
critical situations, whether itbe death or suicide or overdoses
or interface violence, whateverit may be, we we've had to
respond to child sexualexploitation, child criminal
exploitation.
But now we're in a place wherewe're not having to be as
(38:54):
reactionary anymore, and we canbe a wee bit more proactive.
So what we're what we're we'rein a place now where we're being
very specific about what thecritical needs of the young
people are and how we can ensurethat we remove those barriers
to young people becoming bettercitizens or are healthier and
(39:15):
and better well, being moreresilient, you know, better
educated, whatever it may be.
But that that's it that's wherewe are at the moment.
So we're we're being a wee bitmore um better planned, more
focused and intentional, um,less reactionary and more
proactive.
And uh that that sort ofexcites me.
(39:36):
I think we can be much moreeffective.
Chris Nafis (39:39):
Yeah, so no longer just like crisis to crisis, one
thing to the next.
You're now able to do likeformative work at a deep level
that's actually kind of gettingto the identity and the and kind
of the the heart of thechildren, the youth, so that
they can be made into peoplethat are more in line with uh
peace and justice and love andthose settings.
(39:59):
Man, that's beautiful.
Is that you know,organizationally, like you guys
have kind of learned how to dothis better, or like what do you
how do you attribute that?
Stephen Hughes (40:09):
Well, yeah, to be honest, Chris, I've had a lot
of I've I've been I wasinvolved with a program about 15
years ago run by the Americangovernment.
It's a program called Ambit,and it was run through the
International Fund for Ireland.
Um, and what it's done is itbrought um young leaders, well,
(40:30):
maybe more than it's maybe morethan 15 years ago.
Um, it brought all theseleaders together or potential
leaders together.
Um they brought us to theUnited States.
So we went, we spent a bit oftime in Newark, spent a bit of
time in Philadelphia andWashington, D.C.
Um, friends that I made forlife.
Um we got we got um I'll I'llprobably say engaged without
(40:56):
saying married to anorganization in in Pittsburgh
called uh Amazade.
So it's A-M-A-Z, A-M-A-Z-A-D-E.
So it's a uh Portuguese wordfor friendship.
Um guy called Brandon BlancheCohen.
Um and Amazadi um ourrelationship began to flourish.
(41:18):
We we began to look at um whywe do the work, how we do the
work, um, and they introduced uha couple of new concepts to us,
um, one of which is uhstrength-based youth work.
It's a theoretical umintervention that was designed
by a South Dakota professorcalled Laurie Bentrel.
(41:41):
Um, and that changed my notjust my analysis or my
understanding of what washappening in my own work, but it
changed my values, it changedmy ethos, it changed everything
about me as a as a practitioner.
Um and it helped me see thatall behavior is communication.
(42:01):
It helped me see that um theperson behind the the behavior
is to be valued and to be lovedand to be cared for, um, and the
behavior can be managed andadopted and and relearned.
Um Brandon and and the the teamat Amazon, along with a guy in
(42:23):
work, um Thomas Owens, who who'sthe chief executive of um
Mentor Newark, I think it'scalled Mentor Neuk or Newark
Mentor.
Um it's like a big brother, bigsister type organization in New
York.
Um he dealt with education andlearning, um, taught me an awful
lot.
Um that we we attended theirchurch services in in Newark um
(42:51):
and it was a profound experiencefor me.
It was uh a very understanding,compassionate, caring um
intervention in the lives ofchildren and young people and in
New York.
And together these people,along with the the the learning
that we done in the in the Anbitprogram, sort of changed um how
(43:13):
I do what I do and why I dowhat I do.
Um and I think it has probablyum it's probably changed not
just my not just my uh attitudeand my thinking, but it changed
my very ethos.
It changed my um my conceptsand understanding of faith.
(43:36):
And in because I I grew up in acommunity that was divided.
I I grew up in one of the mostviolent communities in in
Belfast.
So I was full of prejudice andhate and and sectarianism.
Um but it taught me somethingdifferent.
As a result, I ended up as aresult, I ended up engaging with
much more American groups, inparticular university students,
(43:59):
and bringing them in to doservice in in Belfast in
different youth clubs.
Um but I think what thesestudents, I think all youth work
teaches you um throughexperience, um but I think what
it taught me and what enabled meto share with my children and
young people was um thefrustration that Americans feel
(44:22):
when they come into Belfast.
Like, how can two Christiancommunities be so antagonistic
and be so hateful?
And when really um we as asociety we just hadn't worked
through what sectarianism means.
And when it when we realizethat this isn't really about
(44:42):
faith, this is more about moreabout power and money, you know,
then it it it sort of itchanges your trajectory and it
changes the way you work.
It changes who you work withand why you work with them.
You know, and I think that'sthat has been one of the it's
been one of the biggest lifelessons for me, you know, and it
(45:05):
keeps me focused on why I dowhat I do, bringing both
communities together.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Nafis (45:12):
So what is that like practically speaking, what
does the change look like?
So like you have, you know,let's say you have you you
described uh you told a storywhere you had two kids coming in
from different parts of the ofthe community, you know, they're
they're yelling at each otherin a fist fight with one
another.
Uh, you know, how do you handlethat differently than you would
have previously?
Stephen Hughes (45:32):
Or I I think we overcomplicate them, Chris.
I really do.
Um, these are two kids thatwere very alike, um, that come
from communities that teach eachother to hate each other.
Yeah, so that's what theyexpected when they when we
brought these two kids alongwith the two groups together.
The expectation is I need tohate them.
(45:53):
And we call it demons syndrome.
So P-H-E-M, hyphen, U-N-S,demons.
So we when we teach them thatthey point fingers at each
other, it's demons.
People on the other side of thewall, it's always demons.
But what we do is we teachthem, see these three fingers
when you're pointing at someoneelse, the three fingers that
(46:14):
point back at you.
What about you first?
Sort you out first.
Before you start talking aboutdemons, what's your prejudice?
Why do you hate it?
But you know, and we workthrough that dialogical process
of helping kids and young peoplework through why they believe
what they believe is absolutelycritical.
(46:36):
And it has to be a safe space.
Like we we we done an exercisea couple of weeks back where we
get the young people to put upthe names that they call each
other.
And it, I mean, there's a lotof prejudice, there's a lot of
names and name calling, youknow, in in the young people,
but they don't know why.
(46:56):
They don't know what they mean.
Do you know?
They don't know why they'reregurgitating them, it's just
normal.
And then when you explain howhurtful and and prejudicial
those those that name calling isand what impact it can have,
they sort of suddenly you cansee young people, the penny
drops, and you can hear themchanging.
So the terminology changes, thename calling stops.
(47:20):
Do you know?
They become a wee bit moreapathetic.
They definitely become morecompassionate.
When they hear the stories offamily members who've had
fathers and grandfathers,grandmothers, sisters, aunts,
uncles all killed in thisprocess, maimed, people left
without children or withoutparents, or or brothers or
(47:44):
sisters, or whatever it may be,when they hear these stories and
these stories become real, itsuddenly changes how they um how
they understand and interpretsectarianism.
So that that changes theknowledge base, it changes the
attitude, and it changes thebehavior.
But more importantly for us, itit it changes the moral fabric
(48:09):
and the character of the youngperson.
They suddenly become somethingdifferent, and it's one it's
absolutely wonderful to see.
I heard it last week, and whenI heard a young person say,
Please don't say that, you'llupset my friend.
Do you know?
So we it's not to say it stopsentirely, because I I would be
(48:32):
telling you lies.
It still happens.
We still get rhetoric and westill get young people who
repeat words for the sake ofrepeating them.
But we see that growth, we seethat progression in their in
their behavior, and then andthen how they how they sell
themselves, how they marketthemselves, you know.
And I think that's that's thebit that that keeps you going.
(48:55):
And we've had young people fromthat have been severely
impacted and severely damaged bythe conflict uh in in our in
our programs.
And you can see that changehappening.
It's it's it's what keeps youmotivated, which is what keeps
you going.
Chris Nafis (49:13):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (49:13):
So instead of seeing there's other events as
well, there's other activitiesthat they we've a great um we've
a great uh photographicexhibition in the hall just
launched, um, where they'vetaken photographs from each
community.
Um, and they're sharing thatthrough the photographic
exhibition of little write-upsand that.
(49:34):
We're just about to launch uhan a new video, Zoe R, which is
the ambassador's video.
It actually goes out tomorrow,so you'll be able to um you'll
see it on our uh YouTubechannel, and you'll be able to
share some of that with withyour listeners.
Um young people are working onthe interfaces, changing the
(49:58):
physical environment, paintingin murals, painting out
graffiti, litter picking, umchanging the messages on our
walls, changing the language onour walls, um, change take
painting out the heat speechthat's on our walls.
So they take responsibility forit as well, and they own this
(50:20):
process.
You know, they make thosedecisions, they undertake that
work, they don't get paid forit.
It's it's a it's a civicresponsibility thing.
Um, and I think that's that'sanother impact and huge success
of the the programs that we run.
Chris Nafis (50:36):
Yeah.
I mean, to what is you know, uhI'm a as a pastor and uh
thinking of this in like faithlanguage, it sounds like a
discipleship program to me.
You know what I mean?
Like you're helping find finddiscipline in into being uh
better, you know, living intowho they really are meant to be
instead of uh the things thatthe the negativity of the world
has shaped them to be.
(50:57):
And that's kind of what I hearyou saying.
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (51:00):
I'm really glad to say that and and I'm
enthused at the moment by theway our churches are working
together.
Because all too often the thechurches were very segregated
during the conflict as well, andand they aligned themselves
with their own communities.
Um, thankfully, um, we've gotreally strong leadership in in
(51:23):
all of our churches, in alldenominations.
Um that I think that we'rebeginning to see the benefit
from.
Um, a great program forInternational Peace Day last
night in or sorry on Sundaynight in the in Farset.
And uh we we seen all thechurches coming together doing
(51:44):
wonderful work.
Our own church here is workingwith with some of the churches
on the Shangle Road, um,bringing adults together mainly.
Uh, we do the we tend to do theyouth work.
They bring adult parishionerstogether um for different events
and activities and and prayergroups.
And um I I I love to see thatand I I love to see the churches
(52:09):
leading from the front, youknow, and leading in a very
compassionate and current mannerthat is sensitive to people's
histories and backgrounds andbaggage, um but at the same time
providing that leadership forcommunities going forward.
It's it's absolutely beautifulto watch.
And it is the cycleship.
(52:30):
So it is.
It is it is a Christian Judy asso much, but it's not one that
they need to take on.
But they do, they've crossedthe nettle and and they're doing
that not just well, but I thinkit's beautiful to watch.
Um some of the events takingplace, yeah.
(52:52):
Yeah.
It gives me a bit of faith thatwe have a future, do you know?
Chris Nafis (52:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, man, it's great to hearthe hope that's in everything
that you're saying and the theway that you can envision, even
in the midst of poverty andstruggle, and you know, it's not
that these kids don't have anyissues or something like that,
but that there's this openfuture, not just for the
individual youth, but for thecommunity as a whole, to kind of
(53:19):
create a better, a better life,better community, better world
for um for the next generationand for their adulthood.
Stephen Hughes (53:26):
Well, and for me, that this is a great fun
job.
Yeah.
It's complex and it's toughsometimes emotionally.
Um, I'm not I'm getting mucholder now.
Um I'm not maybe as physicallyable as what I am in the past.
Um, but I have my I have myabilities and I love the job.
I love watching young peopleachieve.
(53:47):
I love seeing them thrive, doyou know?
And I love to see them takingon new opportunities and and a
new journey in life.
Do you know?
I think it's it's just it'sit's the the greatest pleasure
of this job.
It's actually a it's aprivilege that I have to be in
the lives of children and youngpeople and watching that and
(54:09):
getting to watch that growthhappening.
It's it's an absolute I say myprayers every day and thank our
Lord for for giving me thatprivilege and um and hopefully
he gives me another daytomorrow, do you know?
Chris Nafis (54:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, thanks for doingthe job.
It it's it's inspiring and uhand helpful.
It's helpful to be there, it'shelpful to hear you kind of tell
the tell the stories, and youknow, it gives me hope and
faith, even from you know theother side of the world over
here in San Diego, to uh thatthat maybe there's some hope for
us, you know.
Uh the United States is in aplace that we've reflected
(54:43):
often.
It feels like we're on thefront end potentially of a bad
conflict, and hopefully we cantake some different um routes
than the ones that we seem to beon now.
But uh, you know, we don't feellike we don't get much good
news these days.
Um, and so I hear some fromyou, you know, it's good.
Stephen Hughes (55:02):
I feel sorry for my um American friends and
colleagues, and we we have along-term relationship, as I
said, with Newark, with Thomasand Owens and and Mantor Newark
with Highlander High School inRhode Island.
Who we have an exchange programthat happens every year.
That's went to the wall now,um, because of some of the stuff
that's happening in terms of inthe United States travel
(55:26):
arrangements.
Um but yeah, our our hearts andprayers go out to to the
American public um that youshould get some really good
leadership, and uh and hopefullyit doesn't go the way that we
all think it might go.
Chris Nafis (55:44):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (55:45):
Any advice for us?
Pray.
I always believe in the powerof prayer.
Um I think our churches and ourchurch leaders have a great
opportunity um to help take thisthing out of some of the
politics, the politics of hate,the politics of fear, the
(56:05):
politics of greed.
Yeah, you know.
Um I've been traveling to theUnited States now for 30 years.
And I don't meet what I see onthe TV, that what I hear from
the media is not the people thatI meet when I go to the United
States.
I I meet um philanthropists, Imeet people who are loving and
(56:32):
turn and who want to make theworld a better place.
I just it just worries mesometimes when I when I hear and
say, and don't get me wrong, wewe have the same problem here.
Sure.
We can see the growth of thishate and fear-mongering here in
in the UK and Ireland and inEurope.
Um I just hope, I and I dobelieve, Chris, there's far more
(56:56):
people that are loving, caring,compassionate, apathetic,
understanding, helpful, andloving again.
Um I think there's more of us.
Um and we just need to stand upand do what we need to do, um,
and be that loving caringsociety.
And I think America will getthrough this, use it will to us,
(57:18):
and hopefully we'll not uhwe'll not allow this hate to
grow in the world.
Um, I think there's too manygood people out there for them
for allow this to happen.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Nafis (57:30):
Well, appreciate that and appreciate your your
example and uh and theinspiration that comes from the
work that you have been doingfaithfully for so many years
now.
Um any any final word, anythingyou want to share about what
you're doing that we haven'ttalked about?
Stephen Hughes (57:43):
Thank your listeners for hearing the
rambles of an old man, you know.
Um I I've loved I loved meetingyou all when you came across
the island, and I uh hopefullythis helps in some way.
Um all it is is a story of a ofa small inner city youth
project.
Um yeah, but we we believe youchange one person, you change
(58:07):
the world, you know.
Yeah, for sure.
Chris Nafis (58:09):
And that's what we need to continue to do.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, thanks for your time anduh and and again appreciate
everything.
Like it was it was a joy to bethere in person, to meet you in
person, and uh really gratefulthat I got to have another
chance to talk to you, ask yousome questions.
Uh for those who are listening,thanks for thanks for
listening.
Uh if you find these episodeshelpful, you know, share them
(58:31):
with somebody, send it tosomebody, say, hey, listen to
this, because uh this is a coolstory or this is an inspiring
thing, or this is what I thinkwe need to be doing, or or hate
it, you know, send it to someoneand say, I hate this.
Can you, you know, tell me andthen you can send me your emails
and all that, but uh but let'slet's uh you know I'm I'm making
these so that we can sharethem.
(58:51):
So please share them, hitsubscribe or whatever, and uh
more importantly, go out, make afriend on the other side of our
divide.
Uh do something good today thatum can help build you into a
better, a better version ofyourself and um allow God to
shape your life in somethingthat looks like hope and love
and and justice and joy.
(59:12):
Um thanks for thanks forjoining in.
Thanks again, uh Steven, and uhhopefully we'll catch you next
time.
Stephen Hughes (59:18):
The cattle's always on, Chris.
Next time you're over.
Chris Nafis (59:21):
Oh, I'll come get some tea for sure.
All right, see you soon.
Stephen Hughes (59:27):
Bye, everyone.
Hey, welcome back to the card.
This is Pastor Chris Neifus ofLiving Water Church.
I'm saying I'm delighted tohave Stephen Hughes join me.
He is the director of St.
Peter's Youth Center in LowerFalls community in Belfast,
Northern Ireland.
Got to visit him when I was inNorthern Ireland earlier this
summer.
And he's doing profound workamong the youth in this place
(00:22):
that is historically one of thetouch points, the flash points
of the violence and the divisionin Northern Ireland.
He had for 13 years in thisplace and for 42 years has been
doing youth work in NorthernIreland, helping to raise a
generation that's ready forpeace and that is being
transformed by love and hope andready to build a new community
(00:44):
and a new life for themselvesand for their neighbors.
I hope that you find thisconversation inspiring,
especially in the midst of anincreasingly divided country in
our own context.
Here it is, all right.
(01:13):
Well, Steven, thank you so muchfor uh spending a little time
just talking to me about what'sgoing on there in Belfast.
Uh, appreciate you being herewith me at all.
Um, so a lot of our folks, uh Ijust mentioned this before I
hit record, but a lot of ourfolks may not know a ton about
like the history of the troublesand the history of Belfast.
Um, can you tell me a littlebit about your like your
(01:34):
neighborhood and and what led tokind of the context that you're
in now?
Stephen Hughes (01:39):
Well, I'm I'm the youth worker in charge of
what is the a small, charitableor not-for-profit organization
um that works with young peoplefrom six to twenty five years of
age.
Um, we are the church'soutreach to the young people of
Lower Falls.
(01:59):
And Lower Falls is a is a smallcommunity, um, right on the the
edge of Belfast City Centre,the main shopping hub of
Belfast.
Um, we're a community that hasbeen impacted quite severely um
by the conflict that took placein Ireland.
It is where the the violencebegan in 1969 in in Belfast,
(02:26):
here in Lower Falls.
Um it's also a community thatis segregated.
We have a large peace wall,which is sort of 30 foot high,
that segregates two Christiancommunities.
But on one side of the wall, wehave people who want Ireland to
be united, to be an all-Irishisland again.
(02:49):
And on the other side of thewall, we have people who want to
uh retain Northern Ireland asas part of Britain.
So politically, the twocommunities are divided, but we
are in the main a Christiancommunity together.
And it it's uh it's a communitythat has a legacy of of violent
(03:12):
conflict, political conflict.
Um, it's a community that hashundreds of years of
legacy-related issues that areeconomic issues, mainly poverty.
Um, for example, in 1903,Carnegie came over from the
United States.
(03:32):
Scottish industrialist made hismoney in America, um, came here
and he was impacted by thepoverty that he saw.
And he built three libraries,uh, one here in Lower Falls, uh,
one in another community, uh aunionist community not far from
here, and the Donegal Road, andone in Old Park Road in North
(03:55):
Belfast.
And those were the three mostimpoverished communities in 1904
when the three libraries wereopen.
Still to this day, 120 yearslater, um, they remain three of
the most impoverishedcommunities.
Do you know?
So um, in 1972, this communitywas the most impoverished
community in Europe, not even inIreland or the UK, but in
(04:17):
Europe.
Um, and I'm I'm sure that thatmade a contribution to the the
issues we had around theconflict.
Yeah.
Chris Nafis (04:26):
Those those political one of the things is
interesting to see there when wecame, because you know, we came
in not really, you know, weread up and I I kind of learned
a little bit about the historyand things, but didn't, you
know, it's different to be thereand kind of see it.
Um, but how those thatpolitical divide is still very
much very much alive, right?
Like people still have strongfeelings about their different
(04:48):
political preferences in termsof uh where to be what state to
be loyal to, what republic, thatkind of thing.
Stephen Hughes (04:54):
I um am conflicted by that sometimes.
Um I think there's a there's acouple of generations who hold
on to the to the past and to theviolence of the past and to the
prejudice and and hateassociated with the past.
Um I think in in the work thatI do with children and young
(05:18):
people, I think the young peopleare moving on from that.
We're seeing a new generationcoming through that that don't
want that that baggage of theconflict, and they're they're
looking for something different.
Yeah.
And I think the young people umthat we work with, um, they
keep they keep saying to us,this is your problem, you know,
(05:40):
as in my generation.
You know, it's just we we don'twant that.
That that's like leave thatwith views, and we're gonna have
a different life.
And I think that's possibly umI think that's potentially the
future.
The future is that when ourgenerations die off, hopefully
we'll have a more pluralist,interdependent, and respectful
(06:01):
society.
Um the the divisions thatremain in Northern Ireland at
the moment tend to be incommunities where you're seeing
poverty, where you're seeing thethe socioeconomic issues, um,
driving fear and and supposedepending on the the hurt and
(06:25):
pain of the past, to keepcommunities apart.
Yeah.
So it it's a very uh yeah, thethe the youthful element of our
society are moving on and wantsomething different, but there's
like a couple of generationsthat are still there that keep
dragging us back to the past.
And it also suits some of ourpoliticians as well.
(06:47):
Like some our politicians cansometimes uh can exploit that
fear for their own politicalinterests, and that sometimes um
frustrates me really badly.
Yeah, yeah.
But in in um in the communitieswhere I work, they are great
(07:10):
communities, they're cultured,they're caring, they're
compassionate, they are theywant to help each other, um,
they want to grow, and and theywant something different, they
want something better for theirchildren and young people, which
I love to see.
And I think that's what keepsme going in the job, Joe.
Chris Nafis (07:27):
Yeah, well, and that's a big part of what you've
been working towards for yearsnow, right?
How long have you been how longhave you been doing this?
Stephen Hughes (07:33):
I've been here.
Well, that's the this is in myI'm getting into my 13th year
now in this community, but I'vebeen a youth worker now my 42nd
year.
Um, and I've always worked,well, the majority of the time
I've worked in in communitiesthat have been impacted by the
conflict.
Yeah.
Um, or are communities thathave um been dealing with
(07:54):
complex and legacy issues.
Um I I've never worked in a badcommunity.
I I've never left the communityand went, no, that's I really
don't ever want to go backthere.
So my my youth work here, Isuppose initially I was told
don't do this, don't go there,because the the community had
(08:14):
such a bad reputation.
But once I got into thecommunity and met the people and
engaged the young people, Isuddenly found that um this this
is not a bad community at all.
It's just misunderstood.
And also it was uh it was acommunity that had really
(08:34):
complex issues and baggage fromthe past that held young people
back.
Do you know?
And I think once we helpedyoung people understand, uh do
their own analysis and their owninterpretation, because we
don't um we don't help educateyoung people in that way.
(08:56):
We support young people to makebetter decisions themselves
through their own education.
But um I think our youngpeople, um once they got the
opportunity to examine andexplore some of the issues, you
find quickly that they they theyare smart and they can move on,
you know.
And and we see a lot of thatnow today.
Chris Nafis (09:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think in our context too, you
see a lot of people frustratedwith certain people groups.
So in my context, a lot offolks that are uh experiencing
homelessness and on the streetand people very frustrated about
you know behaviors, like thethe way that those folks kind of
present to the rest of thecommunity, but it's really a
lack of understanding thedifficulties and the challenges
(09:38):
that they face that creates allof that kind of reputation and
stuff.
Is that kind of what you'resaying with the youth in your
yeah?
Stephen Hughes (09:45):
I I I I'm finding um one of the one of the
big challenges that I'm findingat the moment um is young
people being exploited for otherpeople's political agenda.
And and whether that be umpolitical hatred, we we're we're
(10:05):
seeing a significant uh rise inthe far right.
And far right fascistorganizations who blame black
and brown people are to behonest, they they blame
everybody but themselves.
They take no responsibility fortheir own um their own role in
society, so it's easier uh topoint the finger.
(10:26):
That can be political and itcan be personal and economic
gain by some people.
You know, we're we're seeingwe're seeing people in in the UK
who are replicating some of theissues that we're seeing in the
United States at the moment.
So uh that that fear is used umto exploit children and young
(10:49):
people into uh an educationthat's really not honest or
true.
And I suppose our job is is tohelp young people work through
that.
Yeah.
You know, help understandwhat's happening to them, see
when they're being and andrealize when they're being
exploited or are misinformed orare manipulated.
(11:11):
Um I think that's one of ourbig challenges at the moment, is
around that issue of of uh fearof black and brown people, um
that leads to hatred, that leadsto discrimination.
Do you know it's it's brutal.
Um and it's and it's new to ushere in Northern Ireland and in
(11:33):
Ireland in general, um we thinkwe have a huge big problem with
new immigrant communities.
It's less than three percent ofour population.
Do you know?
So we are still a very white,majority white Christian
conservative society, do youknow?
But um when you when you listento to some of the messages that
(11:57):
young people are being fed, andwe and in Ireland in
particular, we have some awfulum people who are exponents of
that fear manifestation and thathatred of of black and brown
people, but it's normally foryou when you when you when you
watch it and you follow themoney, it's normally
(12:17):
self-interest, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Nafis (12:21):
So how do you cut through that?
I mean, uh, you know, we'rewrestling with the same things
here where there's kind ofpropaganda type stuff coming
from all multiple differentdirections and trying to figure
out how to help people discernlike what's true and what's
manipulative.
I don't know, have you figuredanything out?
Stephen Hughes (12:38):
For us, it's time and space.
Yeah.
Conversation.
We we're we're uh ourorganization is um all of our
interventions tend to bedialogical.
So um it's sitting down withyoung people and providing that
safe space to have reallycontentious conversations.
Do you know where they can theycan say um what they what
(13:02):
they're what they're feeling,what they're hearing, what
they're believing.
Um they can say that in a safespace, but our job in in news
services is to improveself-awareness, to use
reflective practice and and andchallenge to make them think
about what it is they're sayingand why they're saying it.
Um I just feel that uh maybe wewe're maybe not spending enough
(13:31):
time on the the issues ofethnicity and identity, um, but
we have some really great piecesof work that have helped.
Like we've we've a really greatproject here in Ireland at the
moment called Black and Irish,um which is absolutely wonderful
at challenging some of that olduh rhetoric that's coming
around.
Um but we also have uh reallygood partnerships with our our
(13:56):
new ethnic communities thatsupport the the young people,
the black and brown young peoplewho use our project, do you
know, because it's uh it's asafe space for them.
And no matter what you are, whoyou are, what your abilities
are, what your sexualorientation, what your practice
around is, this is a safe spacefor children and young people.
(14:16):
Um we we we it's one of ourcore ethics, you know.
Um so even when young peopleare being f being fed this
misinformation and and then someof the um the rhetoric that
they're hearing through socialmedia, it's a place for them to
have those conversations.
Chris Nafis (14:35):
Yeah, so just creating a space for it and
having the conversations and theencounters.
I mean, uh what you shared withus when we were there was a lot
about, you know, we weretalking more about the the old
divide, right?
The wall division and how a bigpart of what you all were doing
was just really intentionallyhelping people forge friendships
with people on the other sideof the wall, right?
And that was like a big part ofthe healing.
(14:57):
I mean, maybe can you share alittle bit about like your your
locate, like the your the youthorganization, the youth center,
and like specifically what youall are doing?
Because I, you know, I've maybeI jumped the gun there a little
bit.
Stephen Hughes (15:09):
Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying to provide
a geographical image in yourlisteners and your listeners'
heads.
Um we are either side of a of amain road.
So on we're on this side of theroad, which is the pro-Irish
nationalist Catholic community,on directly just just at this
(15:33):
side of the building here, um,is a large 30-foot wall that
segregates us from anotherChristian community on the other
side of the wall, which ismainly Protestant, mainly
unionist, and mainly loyalist.
These are two, excuse me, twoof the most impoverished
communities in the country.
On both sides.
(15:54):
On both sides.
Yep.
Yeah.
Um they are two communitiesthat have been significantly
hurt during the conflict.
It's probably with the majorityof people who have either died,
they've either been victims ofthe conflict or perpetrators of
the conflict, either side ofthat.
They are complex.
The complexities are poverty,um, poor housing, um, poor
(16:19):
health, poor education, um,higher than average crime rates.
So they're very, very complexcommunities.
And all too often the the thegates close.
So you can I can walk from now,what time's it?
Yeah, it's it's almost 6 p.m.
here.
I can walk through to my friendand colleague on the other
(16:41):
side, Ruth, who runs TownsendStreet Youth Center.
That's that's my partner group,and we work together on
everything.
I can walk there until 7o'clock.
At 7 o'clock, the gates closeautomatically, and it I then
have to take a detour throughBelfast City Centre to get to
her building, which is 100metres away.
(17:02):
You know, so it becomes itbecomes complex.
But that segregation is notjust um it's it's it doesn't
happen in the majority ofcommunities.
It happens in a small number.
It's probably about 90communities have these walls
that that segregate them.
Our wall is the longestsegregation wall outside of
(17:26):
Israel-Palestine.
And it goes from Belfast CityCentre to the mountain.
It's about eight knives.
Yeah, and it keeps the the twocommunities apart.
And we call them peace walls.
So the idea is that the wallskeep people from fighting and
and and um and being violentwith each other.
(17:49):
I would I I don't ever recallor don't ever call them peace
walls.
I call them segregation wallsbecause that's ultimately what
they do, they keep they keepcommunities apart.
Now, I don't live in thiscommunity where I work.
I get into my car and I drivehome.
I'm about eight miles out theroad, and I live in a mixed
(18:10):
community.
My next door neighbor um is isnot of my tradition or my
politics.
But why do we not have a wallsegregating us?
You know, we're both Christian,we have different traditions,
different faiths, different umpolitics.
But why do we not need a wallto segregate us and not in our
(18:34):
community?
So to me, there's somethingdifferent in the community that
I work in, and that to me thethe the manifestation of of what
we see in this community ispoverty.
There's also there's also umthe closer you live to the wall,
the more impoverished you areas a family.
(18:58):
You tend to be more unemployed,so you're you're benefit
dependent, or what do you usecall them food stamp?
You're food stamp dependent,you're unhealthier, the closer
you live to the wall.
That's mental health, physicalhealth, emotional health.
You are more prone to crime,you know.
(19:18):
You're less uh you underachievein education, so you the the
opportunities for achievement ineducation are less, and and as
a result, then employment areless.
So it's a self-perpetuating, umit's a self-perpetuating
environment.
Yeah.
So it is so but the walls,people, it's funny, we we do an
(19:40):
environment, we have aleadership program every year um
where we take 20 young leadersand we work with them, we do an
environmental audit, we sendthem out into the community to
do an audit of what the bigenvironmental issues are in the
community.
And I've done that now fouryears, and not once have the
young people come back and saidthe walls are an environmental
(20:01):
issue.
They'll talk about airpollution, they'll talk about
lack of green space, they'lltalk about all the issues,
graffiti, fire lighting, all thenormal sort of environmental
issues that you get.
But they don't see the walls.
They don't understand that thewalls, these this wall that
segregates these twocommunities, has a serious
(20:23):
environmental, economic, socialimpact on their lives because
they're so used to it.
It's just normalized insociety.
So the the the walls are areare uh to me are the single
biggest issue after poverty.
Yeah.
Chris Nafis (20:40):
Well, because it's symbolic too, right?
Like there's this symbolism ofa past, I mean, uh I don't know
if you call it past, but likethis past conflict that the
older generations, as you said,are uh carry.
I mean, they have there'sliving memory of people who have
been murdered and you know,real serious violence.
And the young people don't havethat living memory in the same
(21:01):
way as the older generations,but the remnants of it in terms
of like trauma, in terms of themessaging that they're getting
from probably from parents,family members, big older folks
in the community, and then fromthis visible physical thing
that's like dividing theircommunity is still very much a
part of their life, but it'sjust so normalized.
I don't know.
Yeah, is that part of what doyou think just helping people
(21:21):
just actually come to see it,the part of the self-awareness
that you're talking about andhelping people grow beyond?
Stephen Hughes (21:27):
There most definitely is a um a peace
dividend.
Excuse me, there's mostdefinitely a peace dividend um
from from the walls, and there'salmost like a tourist element
now that people come to see thethe dividing walls, much like
many of us did when Berlin'swall came down.
(21:48):
We all went to see the parts ofthe walls that remained.
Chris Nafis (21:51):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (21:51):
But I think there's a there's a problem with
that.
The problem is in in thisprocess, apart, apart from the
conflict in Belfast beginning inthis community, so also did the
peace process.
You know, Jerry Adams, JohnHume, and Father Alec Reed, when
they first met in thiscommunity in Clonard Monastery,
(22:11):
um, to talk about how theybrought an end to the political
violence, also began in thiscommunity.
So there is an appetite forsomething that's different.
There is an appetite in thiscommunity for a new order, as
such.
So the the the community, thiscommunity in the end, voted for
(22:34):
the ceasefire in 1994 and votedfor the for the um the Belfast
Agreement and all subsequentagreements that have come
forward.
This community has continued tosupport them, even though the
community itself has had verylittle benefit or dividend as a
(22:55):
result of the peace process.
You know, I think it's onlynow, and it's probably two
generations now, we're we're 27years um after after the
ceasefire of 1998.
We're we're not we stillhaven't moved on.
And I think one of the bigproblems in the in the whole
(23:15):
process is that we've neveractually reconciled each other
as as two communities inconflict.
And I think that's that andit's not a lack of compassion as
such, but it's recognition ofthe hurt that we that we've done
on each other and takingownership over that hurt, and
(23:36):
then uh like amending our orapologizing and and bringing
some reconciliation to thatprocess.
And I think until we do that,and and and I think about
Ramsbottom's book ContemporaryConflict Resolution, he talked
about reconciliation being uhalmost like a camel's hump.
Um and in Northern Irelandterms that the pinnacle of that
(23:59):
hump is reconciliation.
And 27 years after the afterthe conflict, 27 years of
ceasefire, we still haven't madethat stage yet.
Do you know?
So there's a there's still ajourney ahead.
And I I really hope I reallyhope and pray that um it comes
(24:20):
in our generation, but I suspectit's gonna follow our children.
Chris Nafis (24:24):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (24:24):
Yeah.
To take us through thatprocess.
Chris Nafis (24:27):
Well, and you're doing the work to help bring
that about, right?
So what what is it, you know,all that's kind of the
background of what you'reactually doing, but what you're
actually doing is welcoming abunch of like loud, rambunctious
kids, energetic kids, into theyouth center to play games, and
you know, you guys have likeping pong and video games and
all kinds of fun stuff that youguys do.
(24:48):
You go on you go on haveevents, and I've seen videos of
you guys doing giant, you know,uh slip and slide type things.
Like well, what are you alldoing?
What are you doing?
Stephen Hughes (24:58):
The the the the fun activities that you talk
about are very normal growing upuh games and activities and fun
that normal society and normalpeer groups of children should
have.
But it's not really what we'reabout.
What we're about is arelational-based service.
(25:18):
Um, I think about I think aboutum communities that have been
impacted by trauma and violence,um, are fearful and mistrusting
of difference.
So, what we want to try and dohere is is using the
relationship with the the adultyouth worker is to take young
(25:40):
people through a life journey.
And we we use a socialpedagogue model so the youth
worker walks beside the youngperson as they make decisions in
life.
Do you know?
So we put them into, and I tellmy young people, I'm gonna make
you feel uncomfortable, I'mgonna put you in uncomfortable
(26:01):
situations so that you learnfrom them.
I'm gonna help you reflect, I'mgonna help you self-analyse and
become more self-aware.
Um I'm gonna give youexperiences that are gonna
broaden your horizons, that aregonna test your faith, that are
gonna um challenge everythingabout you.
Do you know your fears, yourmistrusts, your hatred and your
(26:23):
prejudice, all of those thingsare gonna be challenged by the
experiences that we provide.
And and to be fair, the thework that we do with Ruth and in
Townsend Street across theacross the divide, um has has
it's almost like graded in termsof the the learning objectives.
The little ones, the the sortof seven, six, seven to
(26:47):
eleven-year-olds, there's onlyone objective, Chris.
And that objective is to make afriend on the other side of
that wall.
That's all I want my kids todo.
Have experience of people whoare of different faith, who are
of different political opinion,who are different status or
ability or whatever, and justmake a friend, just have someone
(27:10):
who you can say, my friendCharlie lives on the shingle.
And and just in doing that,playing games together, having
fun together, um they suddenlybegin to realize Charlie's not
different from me.
Do you know?
Actually, Charlie's very, verylike me, you know, and and maybe
(27:31):
very different to someone of adifferent economic status, do
you know?
And then it grows as they getinto the we call it the
pre-teens, that's sort of 12 to14 years, we up the the um
learning objectives, and and westart involving some of the more
contentious issues aroundidentity and faith and politics.
(27:51):
And and then when they go fromthe from the 14 to 17 years, it
gets very deep and heavy interms of um social justice, um,
citizenship, civicresponsibility, civic identity,
um, and then social action.
What is it you do?
And that's why we call it theambassadors program.
(28:14):
We we ask of our older youngpeople, what's your
contribution?
What sort of a community do youwant for your children?
Do you want segregation?
Do you want your children togrow up with hate and prejudice
and discrimination and violence?
And and the kids don't wantthat.
You know, they want better thanwhat we had, which I think is
(28:36):
wonderful.
So the program grows with age,um and and it is successful.
Like we know it is changing, uhit's impacting violence, it's
impacting attitudes, it'simpacting knowledge, it's
impacting moral character, youknow, it's impacting faith.
(29:00):
So all of these things are allum they're all improvements in
the lives of our children andyoung people.
And sometimes sometimes our ourbecause they're quite young,
they still don't process this,um, and sometimes it takes it
can take years for this toembed.
Um and I it was uh of acontinuous story.
(29:21):
Um we were at a a recent um alittle bit of violence had
erupted at the wall, and uh meand a couple of colleagues on
either side of the wall went tothat went to that Lonarkway
gates, it's not far from here,and we went to the gates to try
(29:41):
and break the young the twogroups of young people up from
getting involved in violence.
Now the violence hadn'terupted, but the young people
moved, they're quite through,they have WhatsApp chat rooms.
Well, they'll go, right, theyouth workers here, so we'll
move somewhere else.
And they moved up the road.
But two of my youth workersfollowed the group up the road.
And I stayed at the gates.
(30:01):
Um, I was on my own, um, therewas nobody else here, and
suddenly this car pulls inbeside me very quickly, startled
me, and I went, and the window,the window came down, and it
was a a grown adult, it was aman, father of three children
who I'd worked with a number ofyears earlier.
(30:22):
And he says, he shouts out thewindow, Hey, you still doing
this?
I says, Yeah, I'm just we'restill trying.
And he went, thank God, hesays, um, because I have some
great friends on this side ofthe wall now because of you.
So we know it works.
You know, we we have seenrelationships develop, we've
seen attitudes change, we'veseen behaviors change.
(30:44):
Um, and I think young peoplehave moved on from my generation
who continue to carry theexperiences of the past.
Um and hopefully what we willsee is something new in the
future.
Chris Nafis (30:57):
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, I mean, where do youfind uh the challenge?
You know, so like you talkabout the younger kids, the the
first level kids coming and justthe only goal is just to make
another friend.
Do they find that easy to doonce they're actually put in
that situation?
Is that where what are thechallenges?
Stephen Hughes (31:15):
I'll I'll go on tell you another story.
So we we brought the we broughtthe groups together back.
We we our program starts everySeptember.
So we brought the groupstogether here in this youth
center um in September.
There was about 30, um, sort ofseven to 10-year-olds who we we
do game sessions, icebreakers,drama starters, that sort of
(31:38):
thing.
Um we had them all playinggames, getting them introduced,
playing name games, having fun.
Um and these two little lads,10 years of age, clearly did not
like each other.
The language was the languagewas let's let's just say it was
(32:00):
pretty fluid um and and prettyabusive.
Um ended up in a fist fight.
I mean the two of them knockedthe rump out of each other.
Staff jumped in, got themapart, tried to talk to them,
blah, blah.
Nothing was working.
They just hated each other,they called each other all the
(32:20):
bad names of each other.
Um yeah, that was it.
We sort of went, right, that'sit, that's a mess.
Um, we're not gonna get thesetwo groups together, we're not
gonna get these two groups, butwe persevered.
These two kids now are the bestof friends.
These two kids now stay in eachother's houses.
(32:41):
Their parents have chat roomswhere they talk.
Are you dropping them over thisweekend?
Are we staying with you?
And like they go on tripstogether.
Two of them are the best offriends.
The two kids were very, veryalike and come from very, very
similar backgrounds and similarfamilies.
So sometimes it's it just takesa wee bit of perseverance.
(33:02):
Um that that was a difficultsituation at the start of the
little ones project.
Yeah, the opposite happenedthis year with the older ones.
So the older ones this year, webrought them together in July.
Um, we we had our we had ourinitial session, which was uh
telling the young people whatthe project was, this is the 14
(33:23):
to 17 years.
We were telling them what theproject looks like, um, what's
what's going to be involved,what techniques we use, we're
not gonna make them feelcomfortable, etc.
Um, and we took them away onresidential, took them away for
the weekend to camp.
And we were worried, after theprevious experience with the
little ones, we were worriedthat this is gonna be difficult
(33:43):
because older teenagers, theycan be a bit more toxic in terms
of their their belief systemand their experiences.
And it was the opposite, Chris.
We actually we are stilltalking about it as workers now,
it's only a few months in, butwe're still talking about um how
well this worked, howsuccessful it was, how quickly
(34:05):
they they developedrelationships, um, how quickly
they trusted each other.
They now come in and out ofeach other's communities.
They're they're organizingtheir own events and their own
activities in Belfast CityCenter.
Um and and to us, this this wasdone without, I mean, any
(34:27):
hindrance, any barriers.
It was like I'm still shocked.
I know we're only a couple ofmonths in.
I'm still shocked by it.
unknown (34:35):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (34:36):
Do you know?
We still have the teenagetantrums, we still have
huffiness.
We had an incident last night,we were on the peace line last
night, um, with the grouptalking about the impacts of the
peace war.
Um, and there was a bit of atantrum last night.
So there was.
But it was an internal tantrum,an internal tantrum by a small
group of young women.
(34:57):
Do you know?
And had really nothing to dowith the bigger good relations
or cross-community contact.
It was just some young womenhad a fallout with each other,
but it manifested itself in thegroup last night.
That group is is absolutelyshattering us how well and how
quickly the group has got ontogether.
And and it makes it it actuallymakes the the work exciting
(35:21):
going forward.
Yeah.
Because you you don't knowwhat, you don't know where this
group's going.
Because we start introducing,we've started introducing some
of the contentious issues.
So we talk about identity,we've already started that,
we're talking about definitionsof sectarianism, power,
oppression, discrimination.
Um, we're we've now entered in,we've uh uh an element of the
(35:42):
program called exposure, wherethe young people get exposed to
the most the more contentiousissues.
So they have to meet faithleaders, the the the two
Christian traditions, theProtestant and Catholic
traditions.
So they have to meet faithleaders, they have to meet
police, they have to meetex-combatants, people who hated
each other, a British soldier,uh loyalist paramilitary, and a
(36:03):
Republican paramilitary.
Um they have to meet uh thevictims, and what's the fifth
one?
Oh, and peace builders.
So that that element of theprogram is called exposure.
And it's uh it's almost like aa truth share type situation
where young people have the it'sa very open and safe
(36:25):
environment.
They the workshop facilitatorswho come and and deliver on the
themes, they know that the youngpeople have the opportunity to
ask any questions.
Nothing's off the table.
And now you get some questionsthat are more interesting than
than others, you know.
(36:45):
But um it's a process, and someof that I think um it excites
me going forward how well thisgroup has scaled as a friendship
group, what what might be thepotential in them and in them
working through the workshops,better understanding the
concepts of of sectarianism andwhat it looks like and how it
(37:08):
manifests itself in our society.
It's exciting.
Chris Nafis (37:12):
And do you do you feel like that's a big change
just generationally from likewhen you first came here 13
years ago or when you firststarted doing this work 40 years
ago?
You know what I mean?
Like, is that is that a notionof the conflict?
Stephen Hughes (37:24):
Is it fun it's real it's really funny you asked
that question because um I'mhere 13 years and I think we're
we're in a a transition periodhere at the moment.
For the first 13 years, for thefirst five years, um nobody
supported the organization,nobody supported the work,
(37:47):
nobody trusted anybody in theorganization.
Um and and to be fair, we wewere attacked, my car was
attacked, we received deaththreats, all of those sorts of
things happened in the firstsort of four or five years.
Um in the subsequent eightyears, um we have not that we've
worn down the community, but Ithink we've proved to the
(38:09):
community that um we're here forthe best interest of the young
people.
Yeah.
And that has changed.
And I we're we're we funny, thestaff team were away um at the
start of September talking aboutthis very subject, and we
believe we're in a transitionperiod.
So for the previous 13 years,everything that we've been doing
(38:30):
has been reactionary,firefighting, responding to
critical situations, whether itbe death or suicide or overdoses
or interface violence, whateverit may be, we we've had to
respond to child sexualexploitation, child criminal
exploitation.
But now we're in a place wherewe're not having to be as
(38:54):
reactionary anymore, and we canbe a wee bit more proactive.
So what we're what we're we'rein a place now where we're being
very specific about what thecritical needs of the young
people are and how we can ensurethat we remove those barriers
to young people becoming bettercitizens or are healthier and
(39:15):
and better well, being moreresilient, you know, better
educated, whatever it may be.
But that that's it that's wherewe are at the moment.
So we're we're being a wee bitmore um better planned, more
focused and intentional, um,less reactionary and more
proactive.
And uh that that sort ofexcites me.
(39:36):
I think we can be much moreeffective.
Chris Nafis (39:39):
Yeah, so no longer just like crisis to crisis, one
thing to the next.
You're now able to do likeformative work at a deep level
that's actually kind of gettingto the identity and the and kind
of the the heart of thechildren, the youth, so that
they can be made into peoplethat are more in line with uh
peace and justice and love andthose settings.
(39:59):
Man, that's beautiful.
Is that you know,organizationally, like you guys
have kind of learned how to dothis better, or like what do you
how do you attribute that?
Stephen Hughes (40:09):
Well, yeah, to be honest, Chris, I've had a lot
of I've I've been I wasinvolved with a program about 15
years ago run by the Americangovernment.
It's a program called Ambit,and it was run through the
International Fund for Ireland.
Um, and what it's done is itbrought um young leaders, well,
(40:30):
maybe more than it's maybe morethan 15 years ago.
Um, it brought all theseleaders together or potential
leaders together.
Um they brought us to theUnited States.
So we went, we spent a bit oftime in Newark, spent a bit of
time in Philadelphia andWashington, D.C.
Um, friends that I made forlife.
Um we got we got um I'll I'llprobably say engaged without
(40:56):
saying married to anorganization in in Pittsburgh
called uh Amazade.
So it's A-M-A-Z, A-M-A-Z-A-D-E.
So it's a uh Portuguese wordfor friendship.
Um guy called Brandon BlancheCohen.
Um and Amazadi um ourrelationship began to flourish.
(41:18):
We we began to look at um whywe do the work, how we do the
work, um, and they introduced uha couple of new concepts to us,
um, one of which is uhstrength-based youth work.
It's a theoretical umintervention that was designed
by a South Dakota professorcalled Laurie Bentrel.
(41:41):
Um, and that changed my notjust my analysis or my
understanding of what washappening in my own work, but it
changed my values, it changedmy ethos, it changed everything
about me as a as a practitioner.
Um and it helped me see thatall behavior is communication.
(42:01):
It helped me see that um theperson behind the the behavior
is to be valued and to be lovedand to be cared for, um, and the
behavior can be managed andadopted and and relearned.
Um Brandon and and the the teamat Amazon, along with a guy in
(42:23):
work, um Thomas Owens, who who'sthe chief executive of um
Mentor Newark, I think it'scalled Mentor Neuk or Newark
Mentor.
Um it's like a big brother, bigsister type organization in New
York.
Um he dealt with education andlearning, um, taught me an awful
lot.
Um that we we attended theirchurch services in in Newark um
(42:51):
and it was a profound experiencefor me.
It was uh a very understanding,compassionate, caring um
intervention in the lives ofchildren and young people and in
New York.
And together these people,along with the the the learning
that we done in the in the Anbitprogram, sort of changed um how
(43:13):
I do what I do and why I dowhat I do.
Um and I think it has probablyum it's probably changed not
just my not just my uh attitudeand my thinking, but it changed
my very ethos.
It changed my um my conceptsand understanding of faith.
(43:36):
And in because I I grew up in acommunity that was divided.
I I grew up in one of the mostviolent communities in in
Belfast.
So I was full of prejudice andhate and and sectarianism.
Um but it taught me somethingdifferent.
As a result, I ended up as aresult, I ended up engaging with
much more American groups, inparticular university students,
(43:59):
and bringing them in to doservice in in Belfast in
different youth clubs.
Um but I think what thesestudents, I think all youth work
teaches you um throughexperience, um but I think what
it taught me and what enabled meto share with my children and
young people was um thefrustration that Americans feel
(44:22):
when they come into Belfast.
Like, how can two Christiancommunities be so antagonistic
and be so hateful?
And when really um we as asociety we just hadn't worked
through what sectarianism means.
And when it when we realizethat this isn't really about
(44:42):
faith, this is more about moreabout power and money, you know,
then it it it sort of itchanges your trajectory and it
changes the way you work.
It changes who you work withand why you work with them.
You know, and I think that'sthat has been one of the it's
been one of the biggest lifelessons for me, you know, and it
(45:05):
keeps me focused on why I dowhat I do, bringing both
communities together.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Nafis (45:12):
So what is that like practically speaking, what
does the change look like?
So like you have, you know,let's say you have you you
described uh you told a storywhere you had two kids coming in
from different parts of the ofthe community, you know, they're
they're yelling at each otherin a fist fight with one
another.
Uh, you know, how do you handlethat differently than you would
have previously?
Stephen Hughes (45:32):
Or I I think we overcomplicate them, Chris.
I really do.
Um, these are two kids thatwere very alike, um, that come
from communities that teach eachother to hate each other.
Yeah, so that's what theyexpected when they when we
brought these two kids alongwith the two groups together.
The expectation is I need tohate them.
(45:53):
And we call it demons syndrome.
So P-H-E-M, hyphen, U-N-S,demons.
So we when we teach them thatthey point fingers at each
other, it's demons.
People on the other side of thewall, it's always demons.
But what we do is we teachthem, see these three fingers
when you're pointing at someoneelse, the three fingers that
(46:14):
point back at you.
What about you first?
Sort you out first.
Before you start talking aboutdemons, what's your prejudice?
Why do you hate it?
But you know, and we workthrough that dialogical process
of helping kids and young peoplework through why they believe
what they believe is absolutelycritical.
(46:36):
And it has to be a safe space.
Like we we we done an exercisea couple of weeks back where we
get the young people to put upthe names that they call each
other.
And it, I mean, there's a lotof prejudice, there's a lot of
names and name calling, youknow, in in the young people,
but they don't know why.
(46:56):
They don't know what they mean.
Do you know?
They don't know why they'reregurgitating them, it's just
normal.
And then when you explain howhurtful and and prejudicial
those those that name calling isand what impact it can have,
they sort of suddenly you cansee young people, the penny
drops, and you can hear themchanging.
So the terminology changes, thename calling stops.
(47:20):
Do you know?
They become a wee bit moreapathetic.
They definitely become morecompassionate.
When they hear the stories offamily members who've had
fathers and grandfathers,grandmothers, sisters, aunts,
uncles all killed in thisprocess, maimed, people left
without children or withoutparents, or or brothers or
(47:44):
sisters, or whatever it may be,when they hear these stories and
these stories become real, itsuddenly changes how they um how
they understand and interpretsectarianism.
So that that changes theknowledge base, it changes the
attitude, and it changes thebehavior.
But more importantly for us, itit it changes the moral fabric
(48:09):
and the character of the youngperson.
They suddenly become somethingdifferent, and it's one it's
absolutely wonderful to see.
I heard it last week, and whenI heard a young person say,
Please don't say that, you'llupset my friend.
Do you know?
So we it's not to say it stopsentirely, because I I would be
(48:32):
telling you lies.
It still happens.
We still get rhetoric and westill get young people who
repeat words for the sake ofrepeating them.
But we see that growth, we seethat progression in their in
their behavior, and then andthen how they how they sell
themselves, how they marketthemselves, you know.
And I think that's that's thebit that that keeps you going.
(48:55):
And we've had young people fromthat have been severely
impacted and severely damaged bythe conflict uh in in our in
our programs.
And you can see that changehappening.
It's it's it's what keeps youmotivated, which is what keeps
you going.
Chris Nafis (49:13):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (49:13):
So instead of seeing there's other events as
well, there's other activitiesthat they we've a great um we've
a great uh photographicexhibition in the hall just
launched, um, where they'vetaken photographs from each
community.
Um, and they're sharing thatthrough the photographic
exhibition of little write-upsand that.
(49:34):
We're just about to launch uhan a new video, Zoe R, which is
the ambassador's video.
It actually goes out tomorrow,so you'll be able to um you'll
see it on our uh YouTubechannel, and you'll be able to
share some of that with withyour listeners.
Um young people are working onthe interfaces, changing the
(49:58):
physical environment, paintingin murals, painting out
graffiti, litter picking, umchanging the messages on our
walls, changing the language onour walls, um, change take
painting out the heat speechthat's on our walls.
So they take responsibility forit as well, and they own this
(50:20):
process.
You know, they make thosedecisions, they undertake that
work, they don't get paid forit.
It's it's a it's a civicresponsibility thing.
Um, and I think that's that'sanother impact and huge success
of the the programs that we run.
Chris Nafis (50:36):
Yeah.
I mean, to what is you know, uhI'm a as a pastor and uh
thinking of this in like faithlanguage, it sounds like a
discipleship program to me.
You know what I mean?
Like you're helping find finddiscipline in into being uh
better, you know, living intowho they really are meant to be
instead of uh the things thatthe the negativity of the world
has shaped them to be.
(50:57):
And that's kind of what I hearyou saying.
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (51:00):
I'm really glad to say that and and I'm
enthused at the moment by theway our churches are working
together.
Because all too often the thechurches were very segregated
during the conflict as well, andand they aligned themselves
with their own communities.
Um, thankfully, um, we've gotreally strong leadership in in
(51:23):
all of our churches, in alldenominations.
Um that I think that we'rebeginning to see the benefit
from.
Um, a great program forInternational Peace Day last
night in or sorry on Sundaynight in the in Farset.
And uh we we seen all thechurches coming together doing
(51:44):
wonderful work.
Our own church here is workingwith with some of the churches
on the Shangle Road, um,bringing adults together mainly.
Uh, we do the we tend to do theyouth work.
They bring adult parishionerstogether um for different events
and activities and and prayergroups.
And um I I I love to see thatand I I love to see the churches
(52:09):
leading from the front, youknow, and leading in a very
compassionate and current mannerthat is sensitive to people's
histories and backgrounds andbaggage, um but at the same time
providing that leadership forcommunities going forward.
It's it's absolutely beautifulto watch.
And it is the cycleship.
(52:30):
So it is.
It is it is a Christian Judy asso much, but it's not one that
they need to take on.
But they do, they've crossedthe nettle and and they're doing
that not just well, but I thinkit's beautiful to watch.
Um some of the events takingplace, yeah.
(52:52):
Yeah.
It gives me a bit of faith thatwe have a future, do you know?
Chris Nafis (52:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, man, it's great to hearthe hope that's in everything
that you're saying and the theway that you can envision, even
in the midst of poverty andstruggle, and you know, it's not
that these kids don't have anyissues or something like that,
but that there's this openfuture, not just for the
individual youth, but for thecommunity as a whole, to kind of
(53:19):
create a better, a better life,better community, better world
for um for the next generationand for their adulthood.
Stephen Hughes (53:26):
Well, and for me, that this is a great fun
job.
Yeah.
It's complex and it's toughsometimes emotionally.
Um, I'm not I'm getting mucholder now.
Um I'm not maybe as physicallyable as what I am in the past.
Um, but I have my I have myabilities and I love the job.
I love watching young peopleachieve.
(53:47):
I love seeing them thrive, doyou know?
And I love to see them takingon new opportunities and and a
new journey in life.
Do you know?
I think it's it's just it'sit's the the greatest pleasure
of this job.
It's actually a it's aprivilege that I have to be in
the lives of children and youngpeople and watching that and
(54:09):
getting to watch that growthhappening.
It's it's an absolute I say myprayers every day and thank our
Lord for for giving me thatprivilege and um and hopefully
he gives me another daytomorrow, do you know?
Chris Nafis (54:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, thanks for doingthe job.
It it's it's inspiring and uhand helpful.
It's helpful to be there, it'shelpful to hear you kind of tell
the tell the stories, and youknow, it gives me hope and
faith, even from you know theother side of the world over
here in San Diego, to uh thatthat maybe there's some hope for
us, you know.
Uh the United States is in aplace that we've reflected
(54:43):
often.
It feels like we're on thefront end potentially of a bad
conflict, and hopefully we cantake some different um routes
than the ones that we seem to beon now.
But uh, you know, we don't feellike we don't get much good
news these days.
Um, and so I hear some fromyou, you know, it's good.
Stephen Hughes (55:02):
I feel sorry for my um American friends and
colleagues, and we we have along-term relationship, as I
said, with Newark, with Thomasand Owens and and Mantor Newark
with Highlander High School inRhode Island.
Who we have an exchange programthat happens every year.
That's went to the wall now,um, because of some of the stuff
that's happening in terms of inthe United States travel
(55:26):
arrangements.
Um but yeah, our our hearts andprayers go out to to the
American public um that youshould get some really good
leadership, and uh and hopefullyit doesn't go the way that we
all think it might go.
Chris Nafis (55:44):
Yeah.
Stephen Hughes (55:45):
Any advice for us?
Pray.
I always believe in the powerof prayer.
Um I think our churches and ourchurch leaders have a great
opportunity um to help take thisthing out of some of the
politics, the politics of hate,the politics of fear, the
(56:05):
politics of greed.
Yeah, you know.
Um I've been traveling to theUnited States now for 30 years.
And I don't meet what I see onthe TV, that what I hear from
the media is not the people thatI meet when I go to the United
States.
I I meet um philanthropists, Imeet people who are loving and
(56:32):
turn and who want to make theworld a better place.
I just it just worries mesometimes when I when I hear and
say, and don't get me wrong, wewe have the same problem here.
Sure.
We can see the growth of thishate and fear-mongering here in
in the UK and Ireland and inEurope.
Um I just hope, I and I dobelieve, Chris, there's far more
(56:56):
people that are loving, caring,compassionate, apathetic,
understanding, helpful, andloving again.
Um I think there's more of us.
Um and we just need to stand upand do what we need to do, um,
and be that loving caringsociety.
And I think America will getthrough this, use it will to us,
(57:18):
and hopefully we'll not uhwe'll not allow this hate to
grow in the world.
Um, I think there's too manygood people out there for them
for allow this to happen.
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Nafis (57:30):
Well, appreciate that and appreciate your your
example and uh and theinspiration that comes from the
work that you have been doingfaithfully for so many years
now.
Um any any final word, anythingyou want to share about what
you're doing that we haven'ttalked about?
Stephen Hughes (57:43):
Thank your listeners for hearing the
rambles of an old man, you know.
Um I I've loved I loved meetingyou all when you came across
the island, and I uh hopefullythis helps in some way.
Um all it is is a story of a ofa small inner city youth
project.
Um yeah, but we we believe youchange one person, you change
(58:07):
the world, you know.
Yeah, for sure.
Chris Nafis (58:09):
And that's what we need to continue to do.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, thanks for your time anduh and and again appreciate
everything.
Like it was it was a joy to bethere in person, to meet you in
person, and uh really gratefulthat I got to have another
chance to talk to you, ask yousome questions.
Uh for those who are listening,thanks for thanks for
listening.
Uh if you find these episodeshelpful, you know, share them
(58:31):
with somebody, send it tosomebody, say, hey, listen to
this, because uh this is a coolstory or this is an inspiring
thing, or this is what I thinkwe need to be doing, or or hate
it, you know, send it to someoneand say, I hate this.
Can you, you know, tell me andthen you can send me your emails
and all that, but uh but let'slet's uh you know I'm I'm making
these so that we can sharethem.
(58:51):
So please share them, hitsubscribe or whatever, and uh
more importantly, go out, make afriend on the other side of our
divide.
Uh do something good today thatum can help build you into a
better, a better version ofyourself and um allow God to
shape your life in somethingthat looks like hope and love
and and justice and joy.
(59:12):
Um thanks for thanks forjoining in.
Thanks again, uh Steven, and uhhopefully we'll catch you next
time.
Stephen Hughes (59:18):
The cattle's always on, Chris.
Next time you're over.
Chris Nafis (59:21):
Oh, I'll come get some tea for sure.
All right, see you soon.
Stephen Hughes (59:27):
Bye, everyone.
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