Isaac Villegas - Migrant God: A Christian Vision for Immigrant Justice

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When a church gathers to wash feet at an immigration detention center, is it worship or protest? According to Isaac Villegas, it's both - and that's precisely the point. In this profound conversation, Villegas shares stories from his new book "Migrant God: A Christian Vision for Immigrant Justice," revealing how authentic Christian practices become revolutionary acts in contexts of injustice.

Drawing from his experiences as a Mennonite pastor and the child of Latin American immigrants, Villegas takes us inside the remarkable two-year sanctuary his congregation provided for Rosa del Carmen Ortez Cruz, an undocumented woman facing deportation. With a host of volunteers coordinating everything from grocery delivery to laundry service, this community demonstrated what it means to truly be the church rather than simply attend one. "Rosa believed in the church with her life," Villegas observes, noting how her trust challenged the congregation to live up to its calling.

The conversation explores how traditional Christian practices take on profound political dimensions when performed in contested spaces. Whether conducting communion as a shared meal or washing feet outside detention centers, these acts embody an alternative vision of community that challenges dehumanizing systems. Villegas argues that Christians don't need to "translate" their faith into political action - they simply need to practice it faithfully in public.

With remarkable candor, Villegas also reflects on Martin Luther King Jr.'s final, undelivered sermon titled "Why America May Go to Hell" and what it means to maintain hope while acknowledging harsh realities. He suggests that Christian hope isn't based on political optimism but on the resurrection - the ultimate sign that seemingly impossible transformations remain possible even in dark times. Those seeking authentic ways to connect faith with justice will find this conversation both challenging and deeply encouraging.

Episode Transcript

Chris Nafis (00:00):
Hi, welcome back to the Current.
This is Chris Nafis, and todayI'm very honored to have Isaac
Villegas come and join me on theshow.
He is an ordained pastor in theMennonite Church USA, served at
Chapel Hill Mennonite for anumber of years and currently on
break to finish up his PhD atDuke.
He wrote a book that's comingout right about now called

(00:23):
Migrant God a Christian Visionfor Immigrant Justice.
It's very good.
He writes for the ChristianCentury and just a very
thoughtful, faithful guy thathas lived out the faith in ways
that I find really inspiring.
We'll talk about some of thosein today's episode.
Hope that you'll enjoy it andhere it is All right.

(01:03):
Well, isaac, I'm reallygrateful that you said yes to
come on here.
Thank you so much for giving usa little bit of your time and
your wisdom and your expertise.

Isaac Villegas (01:08):
Thanks for being here.
Yeah, thank you, chris.

Chris Nafis (01:09):
I'm excited for this uh, I I feel like we've
known each other sort of forlike a long time, like we run in
some of the same circles, bothkind of around duke and durham,
and uh, you just like the peoplethat I know that you also know
are like amazing people, and soit's just been good to be in
touch over the years, love yourwriting, just just really

(01:30):
appreciate you.

Isaac Villegas (01:32):
That's very kind.
Thank you, very kind of you.

Chris Nafis (01:35):
Yeah, you got a book coming out that I got some
advanced access to.
I was really excited to read it.
I read it in like just a fewdays called Migrant God a
Christian Vision for ImmigrantJustice.
In like just a few days, calledMigrant God a Christian Vision
for Immigrant Justice, and Imean the book is sort of about
migration and migration justiceand immigration justice.
It's sort of showing, it'sabout showing up on behalf of

(02:00):
people who are migrants.
Right, it's kind of this blend.
And you yourself grew up likechild of immigrants and kind of
in this world and obviously likefaithful pastor in the church.
Like what, what did you learnresearching and writing the book
?
Like what was, what was therefor you in this?

Isaac Villegas (02:16):
Yeah, that is so true, like I would say, you
know, in terms of what motivatedme, and like you know well, I
should say for myself, it's,it's hard to write, like I am
not a natural writer, it's justsomething that I have to do,
like it's very hard, likewriting, I mean you finish the

(02:37):
book in a few days because it'sit's pretty short.
Yeah, it's a glorified pamphlet.
Let's say it's a glorifiedpamphlet.
Let's say, but, um, it startedoff longer and I just, the more
I read it, the more I like chopstuff down because I get really
frustrated with being verboseand I don't know.
But, like, what ends uphappening is I start writing and
I I get drawn into the storyand like I start remembering

(02:59):
stuff.
And so, you're right, like I, Irevisited my part of my life,
part of growing up, things thatI just don't remember.
Uh, brown people, um, in youknow, the southwest, let's say
california, arizona, that'swhere I grew up.

(03:21):
I remember, like, as I wasthinking about writing about
other people, I remembered, like, all of a sudden, a memory
flashed into my mind of when Iwas like around six, six or
seven well, yeah, around six orseven, where we would drive back

(03:43):
and forth from Los Angeles toArizona visiting family, all
that kind of stuff.
Is that I-8?
I think it's I-8 down there,right, okay, i-8.
And I remembered all of asudden.
I remembered when we got stoppedat one of these checkpoints.
It was right there by theborder between California,

(04:06):
arizona, and like I was justdrawn into the moment and I'd
not really thought about itbefore, but it was a moment
where they pulled us over and atthe they took my dad and I
remember they took my dad intolike custody and their little
outpost thing and they had the,the drug dogs like come around
and like sniff through our carand us, our bags and all this.

(04:29):
And it was this moment.
I'm just like Whoa, I, I guessthat's a repressed memory and so
I called my dad and I'm justlike I'm not making this up,
right, this happened.
He's like, oh my gosh, yes,that happened.
We'd never talked about it, likeit was just one of these things
that happened in the past andlike it's kind of embarrassing.
I guess too, I don't know, butyeah, so some of these stories

(04:53):
as I'm telling stories aboutother people in the book, as I
get drawn in, all of a suddenlike things start coming back to
me about my own life that I,that I remembered and had to
sort through all over again, Iguess, yeah, yeah, so that's one
example of like learning aboutmy myself, I guess, through
writing.

Chris Nafis (05:12):
Yeah, I mean it's amazing how some of those
memories come back when youstart just like reflecting on it
and I mean that's such like anintense experience.
You know, rich, rich and I'vebeen, or our family has been,
going down to Baja, a down tobaja a bunch last several years
and there's all thesecheckpoints down there and last
time we were down there we gotstopped and like a guy with like
a big gun like was crawlingthrough our car and stuff and

(05:35):
you just don't think about how,especially, I feel like for
people who are probably mostpeople who are white and who
just aren't really worried aboutthose border checkpoints
because I know the exactcheckpoint you're talking about
Probably we pass through itevery time we go out to East
County you know we just don'treally think much of it.
But if you are someone who youfeel like even if you didn't

(05:55):
know, you didn't, you're not,you know, have anything, you're
not smuggling anything it'sstill just like such a scary
like people experience the worldin such different ways, I guess
.
So I'm trying to get helpbecause of their immigration
status, because of, you know,race and ethnicity and language.
Um, maybe, I mean, maybe Ishould ask you to to start like.
So you grew up like in LA areaand then moved to Arizona, like

(06:17):
where are you from?
What do you do?
Maybe tell us a little bitabout yourself.

Isaac Villegas (06:21):
Yeah, yeah, I grew up.
So my dad my dad, um migratedfrom colombia, um, and then my
mom from costa rica, and theymet in los angeles, redonda
beach and that's where, yeah,they started the family.
So my sister and I, we grew upthere.
My dad for his whole work life.
My dad worked in the samefactory, which is amazing, so it

(06:46):
was a factory in Carson.
We lived in Lomita.
For those Californians outthere who know these places, I'm
in North Carolina now, so I SanDiego, so we know some LA
places.
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, my mom hasbeen a beautician for all of
her time and, uh, for her work.

(07:07):
Life cuts hair anyhow.
So, yeah, we grew I, we grew upthere in lomita, carson,
torrance area.
Uh, dad worked in this factoryand so then they basically
opened another factory in tucson, arizona, and we moved with the
factory.
My dad was sent to t.
So, yeah, I grew up in LosAngeles and then Tucson, grew up

(07:29):
Catholic at the beginning,latin American.
That was kind of just whathappens, I guess.
Maybe I don't know if that'strue anymore, but that's what it
was like back then and then.
But my parents I don't rememberhow old I was I have vague
memories of the catholic churchand then, um, they became more
charismatic.
There was a charismatic renewalmovement happening within the

(07:52):
catholic church at the time andthat became more and more
interesting to them and so westarted doing, you know,
wednesday night meetings withpraise and you know guitars,
fruits of the manifestations ofthe spirits got drawn into I
don't know, storefrontcharismatic churches, vineyard
stuff, and that was kind ofsignificant for me growing up.

(08:18):
Then, yeah, came out, some wentto college, came out here to
north carolina to go to duke divSchool for seminary and then
became a Mennonite pastor outhere and have been here ever
since.

Chris Nafis (08:31):
Nice.
Yeah, how'd you end up with theMennonites?

Isaac Villegas (08:35):
So I heard about the Mennonites when I was
in college.
In college I had it was mysenior year of college is when
9-11 happened and I was.
I was shaken in my faithbecause of all the Christians
and you know churches thatformed me, church I was going to

(08:58):
.
They were calling for revengeand I was like y'all taught me
that Jesus was important andJesus is especially important
times like this.
Jesus doesn't talk aboutkilling people.
That is not the way of thegospel and I, like it just
really messed with my head and Ihad a professor who was very
pastoral.

(09:20):
His name is Jonathan Wilson,he's now retired, he's a
Canadian Baptist and he told methe story of the Anabaptists and
the 16th century Anabaptistmovement, which is a nonviolent
Christian movement, and I waslike, yes, that's amazing, I
want to worship.
Where are these communities?
And there weren't any aroundthere in that part of California

(09:42):
, around there in that part ofCalifornia.
And so when I moved out here toNorth Carolina I just looked up
the if there were manyMennonite churches Mennonites
are kind of Anabaptist, part ofthe Anabaptist tradition and
found one and showed up tochurch one time, to chapel and
Mennonite fellowship, and um,that Sunday one of the members

(10:02):
of the church, tom Lehman, saidto me oh, welcome to church.
Uh, would you mind readingscripture the next Sunday?
I was like, oh, I guess I'mgoing back to church next Sunday
.
And then basically they're likeoh, you're coming to church,
how would you like to serve asour pastor?
And I was like, okay, I guessthis is the leading of the

(10:23):
spirit as our pastor.

Chris Nafis (10:25):
And I was like, okay, I guess this is the
leading of the spirit.
All right, man, that's that's.
I love that.
That's such a great story of umjust getting involved.
I mean we do the same thing,right, like we try to get new
people like a chance to read, achance to participate, and then
you may, and then you belong,and then, and now you're now
you're a Mennonite pastor doingPhD work, uh, at Duke andke and
um, and you write for.

Isaac Villegas (10:44):
you write for like a bunch of places right
yeah, just let me clarify thatI'm no longer the pastor of that
church.
They now have a wonderful newpastor.
Um, and yeah, I had to stepaway, stepped away from that to
do this phd work, religion andyou got right.
For a christian century that'skind of been my home.

Chris Nafis (11:03):
And for our denomination, our minute
denominational magazine as well,um, yeah, yeah, well, I always
like your stuff pops up for meon just social media and stuff
and it's so.
You're like one of thosewriters where it's like it's
always worth the click and theread because you're just, you're
thoughtful and concise, maybebecause you cut down all your
writing so much just what a goodwriter does right and, um, i't

(11:25):
know, there's just like agenuineness to to what you do,
um, and I thought that's verykind, just let me say thank you.

Isaac Villegas (11:32):
That's very kind of you to say.
It's one of these things likewriting.
This is what I miss aboutpreaching, because preaching you
kind of get to even though younever know what a sermon does.
Or maybe you do, maybe you knowwhat it is, but I never knew
what a sermon does, what it did,um.
But at least when you'repreaching you get to see like
faces and how it's affectingpeople and you're like oh,

(11:54):
communication's happening Right,and even somebody afterwards
who says like hey, thanks foryour sermon.
You know what I mean.
Like it's a kind of like aroutine that happens, but it's
something, whereas with writingstuff it's like I, I sent it off
.
I have no idea if it ever lands.
So it's always nice to findsomebody to be like.
Oh yeah, you know, it resonatedwith me.

Chris Nafis (12:19):
So, yeah, thanks for your stuff Lands well with
me and that's for sure trueabout preaching, that was a part
of what was so hard duringCOVID was preaching into like a
zoom screen and teachings too,like it's just like a black hole
.
It's like sucks the life out ofyou Cause you have no feedback.
You know, like preaching andusually has.
I mean, and we're not, I'm nota super charismatic preacher,
I'm kind of probably boringpreacher, teaching style
preacher.
But even even me, like you seefaces and you get energy from

(12:42):
the people who are with you, andlike you see faces and you get
energy from the people who arewith you and there's like this
back and forth that happens andit's just not there in all forms
of communication, includingpodcasts.
Um, and even though, like I, Ialways tell people like you'd be
shocked how little feedback youget as a preacher, like people
just don't actually tell youanything but the come, say nice
word today or something, but youjust don't get a lot of like
detailed feedback.
But but you get it through thebody language, into through the

(13:04):
eyes and stuff for sure.
Exactly, yeah, yeah, well, Imean a big part of the book and
what you've been, what you, whathas been like.
You're one of those peoplewhere I'm like man.
It's not a lot of people in thechurch that are inspiring to me
that I want to be like thesedays, which is kind of sad to
say, but you're one of them andpart of the reason is because of
what you and your communitieshave done just in in like the

(13:26):
kinds of actions that you'vedone you talk about like the
book is really a series ofstories about you know different
kinds of like communal action,I guess.
Is that a fair way to yeah,yeah?

Isaac Villegas (13:39):
This is the other thing I should say I'm
very Mennonite in this, whereyou know there's this Mennonite
sensibility, where it's anAnabaptist sensibility, where
you don't know if the gospel ispreached until it's received as
good, as news.
You know there's no like thissense of this sacramental
understanding of preaching.
Like I preached, therefore, ithappened.

(14:00):
It's more like well, no, didyou receive what I'm saying is
good and as news?
If not, then we need to talkmore about this.
So you describing the book inthe ways that you are is
actually really helpful for meto figure out, like what
happened.

Chris Nafis (14:15):
You preach anything happen in this book, yeah well,
I mean, I'm sure a lot ofpeople are going to find that
and I know that's.
Yeah, there's very there's likea pragmatism in that, you know
like, because then it's like, dothey also do this?
Like you kind of sit down andhave like a discussion about the
sermon afterwards, right, andthere's a sense that like this
is a word that someone's sharingvery strong on like priesthood

(14:38):
of all believers, right, thatthe pastor kind of has a little
bit of a role in the community,but it's not like elevated in a
way that in some denominationsthere's like ordination carries
this huge weight in this huge,you know kind of priestly
position.
And I appreciate all that aboutthe witness of the Mennonites,
it's really beautiful and Ithink that maybe that's part of

(14:59):
how you end up with this likereally deep sense of communal
identity in the church.
And then I church this is one ofthe things I was wanting to ask
you about, because you know youtalk I think you quoted howard
was at some point talking aboutlike kind of ethics and like
what the church is, and I thinkuh, I wrote it down somewhere
something like the church is notsupposed to have a social ethic

(15:21):
, but to but to be, be a socialethic right, and so there's like
a difference between churchkind of carrying values and
ethics and you know whatever,and like living it and being it,
and I think that's like, couldyou say a little bit about that,
like that's a significantchange in mentality, I think.

Isaac Villegas (15:39):
Yeah, I mean I was very much affected by
Professor Hauerwas and yeah, hisline it's from peaceable
kingdom and he says itthroughout.
I mean it's kind of what he's.
One of the important thingsthat he contributes to our
conversation about theology andethics is, yeah, the church is
not.
The church doesn't have asocial ethic.
The church is a social ethicand what he's trying to name

(16:01):
there is that, like what we doas a community, as a body, is
already political.
It's already a statement how weorganize our lives together.
Who's able to like speak fromthe pulpit?
Who's able to read scripture?
Who do we entrust withproclaiming God's word?

(16:22):
All of that is likerelationships of power and what
we're trying to say as acommunity.
So I think part of what he's,part of his point, which I take
very seriously, is that, like wedon't necessarily have to think
about, okay, we do this thingcalled the gospel at church and
shape our lives around it, andnow we got to translate that

(16:43):
message into the secular worldout there that lives by its own
logic and its own rules.
And he's like no, thetranslation there's, you don't
need to translate, you just dothe things that are church
everywhere, and I mean so maybeone story to like along these
lines, where I I think it's likepretty, pretty Hauerwasian is

(17:06):
as we would do at church.
So for Mennonites and otherChristian traditions, like
during Holy Week, you kick it.
You know, leading up to Easter,thursday is a very important
day.
It's Maundy Thursday, or HolyThursday.
Maundy is like Latin forcommand, I think.
Is that right?
Sounds like Monday, it's inSpanish, so I'm sure it's Latin

(17:30):
for command.
And so what it remembers is thecommand of Jesus to the
disciples on that last nightwhere he's eating with them
before he's taken away, where hesays this command I give to you
to love one another.
And then he says you know whatthis love is, not just something
you think about, or you justsay you enact it.
And that's where he washes thedisciples feet.

(17:52):
And you remember Peter beinglike no, no, no, no, no, you
can't.
While you're my, you're myrabbi, you can't do that.
And Jesus is like well, if youwant, if you want to do this,
you have no part of me, ok.
So it's kind of thisrevolutionary act of servanthood
that Jesus embodies and footwashing.
And so Holy Thursday for us inour church we do a foot washing
service where we watch another'sfeet, and this is how we

(18:14):
acknowledge that we live byChrist's love for us and we pour
that out with one another as wewash feet.
So we just decided to do that atthe at the Immigrant Detention
Center when Holy Thursday, to belike, hey look, this was like
this was during the Obama era,when he you know, maybe

(18:34):
President Obama did a lot of theinfrastructural work to set up
the US deportation machine thatPresident Trump is now utilizing
to the max, and one of thethings that Obama did was start
setting up these kind of likethey're what did he call it?

(18:56):
I can't remember what they'recalled, but basically they like
their little way state, likelittle subunit, they're like sub
ice detention centers in allthese suburban areas throughout
the United States, and we foundone of them or a journalist
found one of them and it wasnearby in, in Perry of all
places, which is like this kindof a more of a upper class area

(19:19):
between Raleigh and Durham,which are the two larger cities,
suburban, and yeah, so we wentover there and we just demand
with a bunch of people you know,this was like an ecumenical our
Catholic worker, friends whowere there, other people from
other churches, and we just dida whole worship service there in
the parking lot, demanding forus to have access to our

(19:41):
brothers and sisters in Christwho they were keeping from us,
to say like, look this, thisservice is all about all of us
washing each other's feet.
It's wrong for you to keep themfrom us.
Let them out.
And they didn't.
And they, they locked the doorsand called the police on us and
all that kind of stuff.
But I mean so that's an example.
It's just like look what we doas a church.
Our soul, our social witness,our ethic is this worship

(20:03):
service, which is where we washeach other's feet.
This is how we uh declare thatwe're the body of Christ, and
we're just doing that in a placewhere it's more politically, um
, provocative Does that makesense as like an example.

Chris Nafis (20:19):
Yeah, I mean I think that's like that's what.
So I just read your book, likeI mean, I finished it today,
right?
So one of the things that's gotme thinking about is the way
that, like the, that and some ofthe other stories in your in,
in like your cause, you'retelling these stories of your
church and other churches thathave like done these things and
like I think what's profoundabout them is that they're like

(20:43):
the actions themselves.
I think what's profound aboutthem is that they're like the
actions themselves.
The thing that you're doing isso profoundly um, like rooted in
, like the, the worship andpractice of the church.
You know what I mean.
Like you're not doing, uh, likeit's not um showy sort of acts
of political theater orsomething like that, like you're

(21:03):
just doing Christian stuff anddoing it in a way that's public
and um, and that kind of likehas this prophetic effect.
And because you're doing itlike you're really doing it.
You're not just like pretendingto wash someone's feet, like
you're actually in the parkinglot washing people's feet.
There's like an authenticity toit that kind of can cut through
some of just all the.

(21:24):
You know there's just like somuch chatter and talk and
bluster and everything, um, butwhen you actually like, just do
the thing.
I mean, there's somethingreally beautiful about that.
Does that make sense?

Isaac Villegas (21:36):
Yeah, yeah, totally, and I'm just now
remembering I didn't includethis in the in the book, but so
we would do that worship service, the full washing worship
service, like every monday thirdevery year, for I can't
remember how many years and itkind of grew and but I remember
this.
I mean, he's an amazing person.
His name is uh patrick and he'spart of that.
He's a catholic worker, uhperson around here and he would

(22:02):
during service.
So the police would show up,especially that first time they
were there in mass and werethreatening to arrest us.
And Patrick, who believes inthe power of the Holy Spirit and
the gospel as I'm trying tolike do this service, hold
things together because I'mleading it Patrick goes and

(22:23):
starts inviting like a policeofficer to come have their feet
washed and I was just like thisis yeah.
I'm like this is the gospelright.
Like this is like what, whatit's?
I mean they did not, but it wasjust like this moment.
I'm like that's super powerful,that, yeah, like you're saying,
this is about worship, this isabout the gospel, and every

(22:46):
worship service is always public.
That's what you know, that'swhat we do as church, and we're
just doing it in a differentplace.
And if someone's moved by theHoly spirit, like this police
officer, what's to stop themfrom joining?
So I don't know, I I just yeah,that was just the powerful
moment.
I didn't.
I mean, I I should have talkedabout that, but I I'd forgotten

(23:07):
until now record.

Chris Nafis (23:25):
But you know, with all the things going on
politically, I feel like I'mkind of in a little, maybe
accelerated season ofpreparation for needing to
respond.
And you know we're our church,is active around housing and
homelessness and we have a lotof people that are, you know,
involved in advocacy aroundthose issues already.
But it just feels like theremay be time coming when we need
to do some more engaging, youknow, kind of stuff, that more

(23:49):
collaborative with otherchurches, that sort of thing.
I guess, like how do you ittakes it must take some
creativity but also somediscernment to figure out, like
what to do.
You know what I mean.
Like what?
How do you guys come up withthe idea Like we're going to go
to this detention center andhave a Maundy Thursday foot
washing service there?
You know what I mean.
Like what?
How do you guys come up withthe idea like we're gonna go to
this detention center and have amonday, thursday foot washing
service there?
You know what I mean.
Like where?
How do you find your way intothat?

Isaac Villegas (24:10):
yeah, yeah, that's a really good yeah I.
I think it's very much rootedin like for us that event.
It was very much rooted in ourtradition.
It was this foot washing issuper important for Mennonites
and so like it just feltautomatic in a way and and so

(24:32):
that, and as these deportationswere kind of growing.
You know, things are horribleright now with with Donald Trump
as the president.
With Donald Trump as thepresident, it's really really
bad.
At the time, with Obama, italso felt pretty bad.
He earned himself the name of,like the deporter in chief.
So it was just one of thesethings at the time.

(24:54):
It's like, oh my gosh, you knowthey're taking our neighbors
from us.
This is wrong.
What do we do?
What resources in our church'slife, worship in our tradition,
and it just kind of happened.
You know it, just it, just God,I guess, as we thought about it

(25:14):
.
I mean, similarly, we I tell thestory in the book about during
the first Trump administration,with Rosa del Carmen, who was a
no, she's documented now, butwas an undocumented resident and
needed a place to be protectedso she could be protected from

(25:40):
ICE because she was flagged fordeportation, and so our church
welcomed her into the sanctuaryprotective sanctuary we, you
know, organized.
This is a long history, achurch history where churches
have been known to keep peoplesafe when the law enforcement
agents are after them for aperiod of time.
And so we, you know, tappedinto that tradition and said,

(26:03):
yeah, this is what we're goingto do for for rosa.
So, and so we kept her safe atchurch for two years from ice,
from ice coming to get her.
So I mean, again, that's justan example of just like, oh wow,
there's this need.
What are how is the churchthought about this?
Stuff in the past, maybethere's something we can access
now.
Stuff in the past, maybethere's something we can access

(26:24):
now.
So, yeah, it's one of thesethings where it feels both
spontaneous in terms of comingup with the what to do and, at
the same time, like it's thetradition, it's like we're not
reinventing something.
You know I does.
That it's weird.
It's both an old thing and it'salso feels spontaneous in terms
of making the connection yeah,it's interesting that like a

(26:48):
two-year work can seemspontaneous.

Chris Nafis (26:50):
You know what I mean.
Like um.
I mean you described like justproviding, providing safe harbor
for her, and we've, you know,like some of the new ice, uh
directives I don't even knowwhat to call them where they're
saying like there's no longersanctuary spaces, church,
schools.
It's probably partly because ofwhat you guys were doing right
and and other.
It wasn't just you, but therewas like a network of churches

(27:11):
that were doing that sort ofthing and um, but like you know,
it sounds again.
It's like it's not just like atheater, like you had to
actually have someone there withher.
She had to herself had to likestay there for a long.
I mean that all of it is.
It's hard stuff to do, um, butwhen you're actually doing it,
then there's like a witnessthere.

(27:31):
That's more than just like asilly tweet or something.
It's like a yeah, you know whatI mean.
Like there's like a, anembodied witness.
That's not um.
Yeah, we put our lives on theline you know, I mean it's one
of these things where it's.

Isaac Villegas (27:44):
I mean so at the time.
I mean it's one of these thingswhere it's like you could get
in trouble.
I mean we were all trained in,you know, community defense,
civil disobedience.
What would happen if I showedup at the door to take her away?
What would you feel comfortabledoing, not a?
What a judicial warrant lookslike as opposed to an
administrator.

(28:04):
You know, all these things thatI'd never thought of before
became super significant forkeeping her safe.
Um, yeah, we were ready to doit.
But yeah, you're right.
I mean so it's spontaneous interms of making the decision,
but then we spent so much timefiguring out what we need to do
to make it happen.

(28:24):
So I think we counted somethinglike 160 volunteers from both
our congregation, and it was ina partnership with the.
We rented space from anotherchurch and so we had to get them
on board a Presbyteriancongregation, and so from their
church, our church and thenchurches in the community,

(28:45):
people, and then you know,non-church people too, would
volunteer to help out.
So like 160 volunteers from 11congregations, and those were
people signed up to doeverything from bring groceries
to do laundry.
That was something I was sodumb Like that first week Rosa

(29:05):
texted me.
She was just like, so how do Ido laundry?
And I was like, oh my gosh, Ididn't even.
We were trying to think ofeverything but we did not think
about laundry.
And so then we had to come upwith like a laundry rotation of
people which is super personal.
You know what I mean.
Like I don't know I'm.
One thing that I'm just totallyjust overwhelmed by is that Rosa

(29:30):
just kind of entrusted herselfto us.
Like that was wild to me andand we delivered.
You know what I mean.
Like we're small church, it'snot, I don't know, it was just
thinking back.
I'm just super impressed.
I mentioned early, you know Idedicate the book to rosa and
this other person who's insanctuary some will, and I

(29:51):
mentioned early on that I sayyou know, um, I believe in the
holy catholic or the HolyApostolic Church, whatever you
want to say, in the old creeds.
You know that's something thatI say I believe in my head, but
Rosa kind of believes it withher, believed it with her life.
Like she's like I'm entrustingmy life to the care of the

(30:14):
church, and that was a hugeresponsibility.

Chris Nafis (30:22):
Yeah, of the church , and that was a huge
responsibility.
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I mean youhave to have a certain
understanding of what the churchis in order to both trust it
and in order to do what you guysdid.
Like it's, you know, like somuch of uh popular imagination
about the church these days isjust like you go to church and
then you leave church and andlike there really is this like
strong sense of like we, we arethe church, we are a community
committed to one anotherlong-term.

(30:43):
You know, like with futureplans, like you can depend on me
, right, like we'll be there,we'll, we'll, we're going to
pick up the laundry later thisweek, and there's probably some
volunteer who's like, yep, onThursdays I'm going to be there
to do the laundry, and even if Iget an argument with someone in
the church, like I'll still bethere next Thursday to do the
laundry, and I mean that's,that's like a different

(31:03):
understanding of what we'redoing, when we are like a
worshiping body of believers,than is kind of common in in the
current era of likeecclesiology, right.

Isaac Villegas (31:15):
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah.
That makes me think like, um,that's a really good point about
the way our congregationcultivated this disposition,
where it just made sense to dothis.
So you know, we're a churchwhere when we celebrate
communion, we also have apotluck meal.

(31:37):
Like those two things cometogether.
So it's like an ecclesiologywhere, you know, communion is
tied to sharing stuff and eatingtogether.
And you do that enough timesover the years, like every month
or whatever it might be.
You start to develop a sense oflike, oh yeah, we are the
church around tables as we shareour lives and our food and pray

(31:58):
and are involved in eachother's lives.
And you know, wednesday nightgroups or whatever it might be.
So that, like you're saying,this cohesion that happens in
the congregation is like, yeah,we can trust each other to do
this kind of to be there foreach other.
We've trusted each other to bethere for each other in the past
.
Maybe we can do this forsomebody else we don't know very

(32:19):
well, like rosa, who's livingwith us yeah, man, it's
beautiful what um, I'mhighlighting all the beautiful
parts about church, but you knowit's a different book to talk
about all the hard stuff as wellyeah, I feel like people do
that with our church too.

Chris Nafis (32:35):
People from the outside are always like, oh,
it's so beautiful what you guysare doing.
You have all these people whoare on the street that are in
your congregation and, yeah,it's a lot messier than it looks
from like an arm's length away.
You know, because it's justjust everybody has to mix and
it's every mix and we're all, weall fall short, right?

Isaac Villegas (32:51):
yeah?

Chris Nafis (33:16):
yeah, um, well, what happens when it does?
I guess I I was going to askabout, I guess, one of the
things I was thinking about as Iread the different stories,
because I was, I found myselfwondering, you know, and then
they probably scatter and itseems like maybe they did Not
really sure where they end upgoing.
But what I found myselfthinking is, like, what happens?
Because it feels like that mayhave been true 10 years ago, but

(33:37):
I I doubt that's as true todaywith, like, the empowerment from
the trump administration as itwas then.
You know what I mean.
Do you feel like they it like itchanges the, it changes the
nature of the work of the churchwhen the outside community is
kind of openly hostile to thatwork?
I mean, in some ways that wasalready the case what you were

(33:58):
doing, but you know what I mean.
When it like, you know, I feellike standing up to the Trump
administration like they don'tcare, it feels like you know
what I mean.
So what?
How does that change the?
How does that change thediscernment?

Isaac Villegas (34:11):
Yeah, no, that's a good point.
Um, yeah, so yeah, what you'resaying about ice is true.
So we around here, we organizeda this ICE watching team so
that we I mean at the time, youknow, not just we, but like
communities throughout theUnited States, networks combined

(34:31):
people together to shareinformation and notice that ICE
was always, like, very reticentto be too public about their
operations because they'realways operating on the edge of
the law, which the Trumpadministration is pushing that
edge all the time.
So they're always operating atthe edge of the law and so they
realize it's always a risk ofwhat they're doing and they

(34:54):
don't have any jurisdiction overcitizens.
That was the other thing aboutit.
So ICE has no jurisdiction.
They cannot touch, cannot touch.
I mean they can't touchcitizens.
We'll see what happens.
Um, so yeah, so we would.
We found out that if youconfront them and start asking
them questions, they kind ofjust go away.
Um, and so this is called likecommunity defense work and yeah,

(35:17):
I mean that that was true backthen and it's turning out to be
true now.
I mean, it's so early to to tell, but I've seen reports now of
um, people confront, I think,someone.
It was a texas town recently,like last week, where they found
that ice was organizing in aparking lot I can, can't

(35:37):
remember it was like a Target orWalmart parking lot every
morning or evening, whatever itwas and then go out for their
operations.
Because I mean the other thingabout it is they don't have a
station anywhere.
You know what I mean.
So like they show up for theiroperations in Houston let's say,
I don't know Houston, theymight have something but Tulsa,
oklahoma they don't haveanywhere to go.
They're just staying in hotels,motels, and then they have to

(36:00):
all convene in the morning to goout, and so you find out where
that is, and so these peopleshowed up and just start
recording them and they gotreally like fussy about it and
then left, and so it was just away of disrupting their
operations, to make things moreinconvenient.
I think at that at this point.
That's what that's.
What a win is, sadly, is how doyou disrupt the deportation

(36:23):
machine, because it's very hardto imagine dismantling it or
changing it, but how do you makelife difficult for people doing
this work?
I think is a question peopleare wrestling with.

Chris Nafis (36:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good, that's a helpful way to
kind of frame some of the work,because again, like it's I don't
know, I feel like maybe that'sone of the things that's seems
kind of scary about the changein the, in the posture of the
trump administration, even fromlike trump trump administration.
Part one is that it's, it'sknow.

(36:58):
It felt like even when Trumpcame first, came on the scene,
it just felt like there's no,there's no shame, you know what
I mean.
Like no one's going to pressurehim to do it.
He will say I can shoot someoneon fifth Avenue and no one
cares.
And he kind of knows that.
And now it feels even more solike he's just like well, you're
trying to stop me, you can'tyou know, I don't care if you're
going to protest away, you knowwho cares and that, um, it

(37:21):
feels like, at least for a longtime in American society at
least there's been, uh, anability for civil rights
movements of various sorts toput political pressure on people
and um, but like I guess maybethat's one of the beautiful
things about what how you allhave like done your work, or the
work that's been happening inthe book is that it's not like

(37:44):
the political pressure is notthe only point, like the point
is to like do the right thing,to be the people you should be.
I don't have like a question.

Isaac Villegas (37:56):
I mean, yeah, I think it's like the fundamental
question of like how we act inthis world and whether or not
our Christian witness iseffective.
It's so complicated to thinkthrough that you do the right
thing because it's the rightthing and you want it to have an
effect in the world, but it's,yeah, I I think it gets to the

(38:17):
heart of the faith, which is thestory of Jesus, where he gets
killed, like I mean his ministryand I mean not just even before
he gets crucified, I mean it is, it's kind of a ineffective
ministry in some sense, becausehe gathers all these people

(38:38):
around him, these disciples, andthen they shrink, like people
start leaving him.
You know, there's like momentsin the story where you know he
says, oh, in John's gospel, forexample, where he's like you
know, unless you eat my fleshand drink my blood, you have no
part, and I can't rememberexactly how it goes and people

(39:03):
like whoa, whoa, whoa this is adifficult teaching and many left
.
So there's moments like thatwhere you can see it shrinking
and then, at the very end, likeJudas betrays him, one of his
beloved disciples, who's beenthere the whole time, you know,
like sells him out.
Peter denies him, you know,there, in his moment of of need,
the disciple, when he's at hisin the garden of gethsemane,

(39:24):
where he's feeling the weight ofit all and like he's like
please stay up with me to hisdisciples and they fall asleep,
you know, on it.
So it just feels like, stepafter step, um, his, it's not a
revolution.
He didn't stop.
You know what I mean.
Like it's not a revolution, hedidn't stop.
You know what I mean.
Like this is not a hugemovement that's going to change
the world.
It shrinks and then he getskilled.
I don't know.

(39:45):
I think that means somethingfor how we think about why we do
the things we do and how weimagine they might be effective
or change stuff.
What do you?

Chris Nafis (39:54):
think, yeah, I mean , in some ways it's a, it sets
you free from having to beeffective.
You know, because, like yousaid, like I think the
expectation on him, you know, aslike Messiah the term Messiah
is like liberator Many of themwere very clearly expecting him
to overthrow Roman occupationand rule and he, like he doesn't
do that right, like he doesn't,he doesn't, he gets crucified

(40:17):
and he's resurrected.
That right, like he doesn't, hedoesn't, he gets crucified and
he's resurrected.
And in in like kind of a waythat is, I don't know, this is
like just typical gospel logicto me.
Like rome does kind of getoverthrown by the faith as it
spreads through rome, but not inthe, not in the way that anyone
was expecting.
You know, it's like this.
It's this um, backwards way ofuh, overthrowing a you know the
most powerful empire in the inthe region, for maybe in the
region's history, I don't knowthis backwards way of
overthrowing a you know the mostpowerful empire in the in the

(40:41):
region, for maybe in theregion's history, I don't know,
and so that.
But I think that maybe maybethat frees us up from like we
have to save the world, we haveto be faithful and trust that
the spirit's going to workthrough the faithfulness of the
people.
Yeah, that's great that youknow work through the
faithfulness of the people.

Isaac Villegas (40:59):
Yeah, that's great.
We don't have to save the world.
This is Karl Barth, that greatSwiss theologian from the 20th
century.
He's just very clear, he's justlike no, the world already has
a savior, his name is JesusChrist.
Right, and that's not our job.
And I mean, like you're saying,that is a bit liberating to

(41:22):
think about.
Yeah, we don't bear the worldon our shoulders, that's.
There's somebody who, who does,and we're just invited to bear
witness to that love, to thatcare, and follow where it may.
But I also would like the worldto change a little bit.
I don't know what to do aboutthat yeah, I know that's the.

Chris Nafis (41:41):
That's the rub, right, because, like, I mean,
it's the same.
It's like I feel like you'redescribing the immigration
system is it's like a machine,right?
You're you've kind of called ita machine couple times
overwhelming.
How do you, how do you stoplike a juggernaut of a machine
like that?
And I think homelessness for usfeels very much like that.
It's just like there's it's socomplex and it's so messy and

(42:03):
there's so many huge forces that, like a tiny church like ours,
like what are?
You know, we can put up 28people on rainy nights and
that's like that's pushing us toour limits.
You know what I mean.
And that's not gonna, that's notgonna solve homelessness and it
feels like, but like I, we sobadly want it to be solved.

(42:23):
You know what I mean.
Like we want to see peoplegetting off the street, um, and
so in one way, it's kind ofliberating to be like, okay, we
don't have to be the ones whofigure out homelessness and
solve it with our meagerresources and and all that, but
on the other hand, like I dowant to help solve it.
You know what I mean.

(42:44):
Um, and we do want to be wiseand strategic with, like the
time, resources people influence, that we have to like make a
positive difference in the world.
Um, I don't know, how do you,you balance those things?

Isaac Villegas (42:58):
So now you're making it.
So yeah, I think part of it is.
Maybe this is what I believe.
I mean, I'm trying it out here,I'm trying to name what I think
is like actually inside me andwhen it comes out in words,
sometimes it makes sense orsometimes it doesn't.
I don't know, We'll see.
But I think what I believe islike is that I don't have a

(43:22):
policy recommendation at thispoint, Like I don't know how to
solve the immigration systemissue.
You know what?

Chris Nafis (43:31):
I mean, I mean, I can come up with like little
policies.

Isaac Villegas (43:34):
I mean, yes, obviously we need to come up
with, like pathways to citizen.
It's ridiculous that there arenot ways to become citizens in
this.
It's ridiculous that there areresidency permits.
You know all these things.
It's just so.
But at the same time, just like, yeah, but borders like I.
It's so complicated and I and Iguess what I find myself doing

(43:56):
and this is what led me to wantto write this book and share
these stories is I feel like I'mat the edge of knowing what to
do and I can't go any further.
And then I find thesecommunities and people who are
doing something, even thoughthey don't know, like a grand
strategy, but they're doing whatthey can, and that feels

(44:17):
hopeful and I hope that the morethat I get involved in their
work and watch what they'redoing, that ideas might happen,
that they might inspire our.
It might be creative moments tobe like you know what.
We don't know about all that,but here's one thing we can do,
so I don't know.
So like there's this church inthat I talk about, in some

(44:40):
Latino Mennonino men and Icongregation south, uh, dallas,
texas, and they're just.
They were just like oh look, weneed to just start having more
meals and invite people to likebe part of our congregation.
And, uh, there's undocumentedpeople, like they're in this
plight with us.
There's people in ourcongregation, people are our
neighbors, so we just providefor them.

(45:01):
And I'm like, yeah, right, likethat's what you do.
Like, of course, like this.
Or there's the?
Um, the migrant shelter intijuana, mexico.
Um, that's run by thescalabrini priests, the
scalabrini order, and they'relike look, people are all
through the central america, uh,south america, central america,
come up.
I mean all over the world.

(45:21):
I met people down there from umperson from Syria, a person
from Ethiopia, I mean justeverywhere.
Oh, ukraine, that's just howyou try to get into the country
when there's no way to get in.
So all these people are justkind of bumping up against the
wall down there in Tijuana andthese priests are like look,
they need food, they needshelter.

(45:42):
Like we care about human beingsand their plight.
So at the very least, we canjust give them a bed and make
sure they have food and medicalcare or whatever it might be.
And I hope that, like, thoseare the places where creativity
might happen to inspire animagination that we just
couldn't come up with on our own?

(46:03):
Does that?

Chris Nafis (46:04):
make sense, maybe another way to say it is.

Isaac Villegas (46:06):
I really believe that as we live out the
life, the gospel life, thatthrough the practice of it the
Holy Spirit gives us new ideas.

Chris Nafis (46:18):
That's where creativity happens is as we're
doing the work because you seethe needs, you see new needs and
you see you make connectionsand there's people in the work
that have ideas about things todo that you know maybe weren't
empowered to do before, but nowthat they're kind of getting
involved in the community insome way.
Um, yeah, and I think, likemaybe it inspires hope or

(46:41):
creativity and how in like whatwe might do together, but also
like I think it helps us to fendoff despair about the world too
.
You know, yeah, because I don'tknow, it's just especially these
days, the world it's sooverwhelming, but I feel like
most of us can name like sixways that the world might
completely be destroyed in thenext five years.
You know, and maybe that's anexaggeration, maybe not, I don't

(47:04):
know, I have to think about it,but you know, like I think
being like hearing these storiesof people doing like actually
good things that are likefaithful and rooted in hope and
rooted in like the hope ofChrist, just hearing them helps
me at least to hold despair atbay, and I think participating

(47:26):
in them is like an even deeperway to just be like you know
there's some, there's somethinggood in this world, like God is
at work here.
I'm gonna be a part of it, youknow, and I don't know how it's
gonna end, but like I'm gonna bepart of this good work at least
yeah, I mean that name yourname.

Isaac Villegas (47:41):
Exactly what I, what got me through writing the
book, got me to write the bookand put these stories together
is is like I'm.
I go to these places and becauseI've heard about them, you know
some through church networks oror whatever it might be, and
like a congregation, or themigrant shelter, or this guy,

(48:01):
alvaro enciso in in arizona, whogoes out and plants, crosses
wherever remains of migrants arefound, who crossed um, and I go
out because I'm looking forhope too.
Right, I mean, the despair isoverwhelming and I'm like here
are people doing things whenthere's nothing that I can
imagine to do and people findways to go on doing at least

(48:25):
something to get them throughthe week, through the month,
through the years.
That is pointing in a directionthat's better than than what we
have and and yeah, I peopleorganizing their lives around
hope.
That's that's, hopefully whatI'm trying to describe and just
how beautiful it all is Like.
It's just like people areamazing in their witness to

(48:50):
another world happening in themidst of this one and it's like,
yeah, I can't help but want toshare those stories with other
people.

Chris Nafis (48:58):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I you know, like one ofthe things that I've written
down is like to ask you is likewhere I feel like I'm kind of
finding the answer to this andjust in thinking and having a
conversation, but like wheredoes where, how does the
personal spiritual practice meetup with, like, the communal
work that we're talking about?
You know what I mean, you knowwhat I mean.

(49:25):
So I think this is like I feellike for me, um, so much of my
personal hope comes from thecommunal work you know, what I
mean, that I sometimes you knowI'm not the strongest of uh,
like prayer practices are hardfor me.
Put it that way, you know, likeI, I'm not great at spiritual
discipline.
It's really good for me when Iget into them, but, like it's,
it's not where I come to life.
In my spiritual life I justcome to.

(49:46):
I come to life and seeing likethe kind of works that we're
talking about, where, where doesthat balance for you?
Or where do you see that in aslike, as a pastor of communists,
former pastor of communistsdoing this stuff, you know,
where is the balance between,like those, those personal acts
of like piety?
Where is the balance betweenlike those, those personal acts
of like piety, faithfulness,prayer, um, and like the larger
communal work of um, of justiceand care for one another?

Isaac Villegas (50:09):
Yeah, yeah, this is getting real now.
I would say when I was a pastor, like it helped me my faith
life felt.
It helped me my faith life belt.
It was not complicated in termsof sorting things through,

(50:29):
cause it's like every Sunday Ihave to say something about the
gospel and so, and I have toread these Bible passages and I
mean that's stress.
It's stressful, I mean for me,um, cause there's a lot like I
mean the one thing that we'restressful, I mean for me, um,
cause there's a lot like I meanthe one thing that we're
committed to as preachers isit's like sharing the gospel as

(50:50):
good news and telling the truthand that's a lot.
And so, yeah, I mean prayerbecomes fundamental as part of,
uh, all of that felt verynatural to me as a rhythm and
kept me um, very natural to meas a rhythm and kept me, um,
yeah, centered, I guess, um, andI'll be like come quick, right,
right, and then during the week, like you're thinking about the

(51:12):
people that you care andthey're going to talk, you know
what I mean.
So it's like they're in your,they're in your head too and, um
, I don't know, that felt verygrounding for me.
The pastor's life, um, yeah,yeah, and I would say that for
prayer there's this, um, I foundin, oh, yeah, actually in the,

(51:33):
I think I, yeah, I start theintroduction of the book with
prayers from this, this bookthat was put together by the
Catholic Order.
It's a prayer book for migrantsand when I was down in the
migrant house, la Casa Migrantein Tijuana, I was able to get

(51:56):
one of these prayer books, whichhas been just really helpful
for me to think through myprayer life it's and to think
about all these people who arecrossing the border and like
really tough situations.
Praying these prayers mostlylike Psalms, kind of Psalms,
paraphrases for the most part asand highlighted for the for

(52:20):
people on the move and I, Idon't know it helps me both
think about their lives and alsothink about my own life and how
much I depend on grace just tolive like other people's grace
and you know it's not justsomebody on the move, uh, that
needs that is dependent onneighbors, I mean, like I am

(52:41):
every day and I need torecognize that as God's gift.
And these prayers kind of helpedme remember that and to say,
yeah, we're filled withgratitude for the ways that God
is sustaining our lives, I don'tknow.
So I think I mean I'm kind oframbling around your question.
I think while I was a pastor, Ifelt like my personal life.

(53:08):
I never had to think aboutwhere my personal spiritual life
and my church faith life and mypolitical interest faith life,
where one began and the otherended.
It felt very cohesive.
Now I feel a little moredisoriented, to be honest, about
how it fits together.

Chris Nafis (53:25):
Yeah, yeah, well, because, yeah, like I I mean I
really identified with that alot like the, the rhythm of
pastoral work kind of keeps youin, keeps you in it, right as
there's like this in and out of,like the study and the concern
and just like the things thatweigh on you as you try to love

(53:46):
this group of people and feelresponsible for them in some way
.
Um, and yeah, so, for example,just sorry.

Isaac Villegas (53:55):
One example I'm just thinking of the pastor's
life and why it was someaningful to me is like I don't
really I only pray for myself.
When I'm like desperate forsomething, you know, like when
things have gotten really bad orthere's a crisis, or like
health concerns or I'm in painor whatever it might be then
it's just like, oh my, I needhelp and I pray.

(54:17):
Um, I think being a pastor, whatbecame automatic for me was
during worship every Sunday, wewould people would share their
prayer requests and I wouldwrite them down and I'm just
like, yeah, what it means to bea pastor is like I pray for
people when they ask for prayer.
You know, like that's just afundamental, and so my prayers

(54:38):
felt more oriented to the lifeof the community as a regular
rhythm.
And as soon as I mean I wouldfind that as soon as I start
praying for somebody, it kind ofbecomes, it opens my eyes to
like other people too.
I'm just like, oh, wait, aminute, that's not a unique
thing to them, obviously otherpeople, obviously I wrestle with
it, and so it just kind ofprayer for one person produces

(55:01):
prayer for more people for me.
That at that point and thatfelt good in ways where now my
prayers are probably more justlike self-centered being out of
that role.

Chris Nafis (55:16):
I mean, yeah, I forget who was I think it was
some, it was a professor at dukeor somebody that just kind of
offhand comment made made acomment about like well, yeah,
if you say, if you say you'regonna pray for someone, you
should pray for them.
And I really took that to heartlike a lot of years ago.
And now I'm like pretty carefulabout like what I commit to pray
for and like if I tell you I'mgoing to pray for you, I will

(55:37):
pray for you you know, at leastonce, and I like I don't tell
people like I'm going to prayfor you every day, because I
probably won't most of the time,you know, but I'll tell you
like I'm going to pray for youtoday and then I will, and, um,
and I think like having somecommunal prayer practices have
been really helpful for me forthat.
Like we have a kind of an open,open-ended sort of prayer
liturgy where we pray for a lotof different categories of

(56:00):
people who are sick and peoplewho are, you know, unhoused, and
people are struggling withaddiction.
And it's kind of a prompting tolike think of all the people
that you've talked to this weekthat you need to pray for, and
that's yeah, I think itfunctions that way.
And like following through on,yeah, that that in a spiritual
discipline in and of itself, islike when you say you're going
to pray for someone or something, like do it, yeah, yeah, it

(56:25):
seems, for someone or somethinglike do it, yeah.

Isaac Villegas (56:27):
Yeah, it seems simple, but like it's actually
pretty profound, you know.
Yeah, I know it is, and I meanit opens us up to, like, what
god's up to too, which I thinkis important yeah yeah, I don't
know, I keep on going with thisprayer, with this pastor prayer
life.
That's important.

Chris Nafis (56:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff.
That's where it's at.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what's what?
What are you?
What's next?
What are you working on now?
Like what, what you know, howare you thinking about all of
the things?
As people say and I, you know,I know you're working on your
PhD and stuff but like in termsof I mean maybe in terms of that

(57:05):
, or maybe in terms of like kindof you know, in engagement with
issues of like justice andfaith, like, what are you
working on?

Isaac Villegas (57:13):
Well, I mean the thing that came to my.
Every once in a while.
This line comes to my mind whenthings feel really bad in this
country.
It's the sermon title from theReverend Dr Martin Luther King
Jr's final sermon, which he wasnot able to preach because he

(57:37):
was assassinated.
Do you know this?
Do you know the sermon title?
No, I know so.
I learned this from RichardLisher.
Did you have Richard Lisher?
Yeah, just a super wonderfulhuman being.

Chris Nafis (57:51):
Yes.

Isaac Villegas (57:52):
Anyhow, I remember this from one of his
classes or whatever, maybe hisbook, I can't remember.
So the Thursday that MartinLuther King Jr was killed, a few
hours before that, he calledthe church secretary because he

(58:12):
was going to be home on Sunday.
You know, he's a preacher Like.
This is what Richard Lisherhighlights in his book about
King is that he's a preacherLike we just can't forget that
he was fundamentally that's hisrhythm.
Like we just can't forget thatwhat is he was fundamentally
that's his rhythm of life.
He always thinks about the nextsermon.
So on Thursday, as a goodpreacher, he calls the church
secretary and says hey, I got mysermon title for the I don't

(58:33):
know the worship bulletin or thekiosk, I can't remember, I
don't know what it.
But you know, you have to comeup with a sermon title.
And his sermon title was uh,why america may go to hell?
And I was just it's just anyhow.
So I think about that sermon,the sermon that he never was

(58:54):
able to preach, and what he wasthinking like, what was going on
where it felt that bad, likethe world felt that bad for him,
and yeah, so I returned to that.
I just just finished writingsomething, just thinking through
, like what are the options?
And I kind of revisited his,his story and what was going on
the last two years of his life.

(59:14):
Richard lisher, in his book Ican't remember the name of it
and I feel very badly about thisright now but uh, in his, oh,
the preacher king, that's whatit's called, the preacher king,
um, but what, what lisher?
I mean lisher like listens toall the archives of all the
sermons and speeches that king'sgiving.
You know, like, anywhere in thecountry he gets access and he

(59:37):
listens, try to figure outwhat's going on.
And the thing that hehighlights within king's last
two years of his life, I mean heobviously king did not know
there, know their last two yearsaway but his tones shifts,
lisher says His tone shifts fromkind of progressive liberalism
to liberationism, from reform torevolution, because he's

(01:00:00):
working so hard for thismovement of civil rights and
he's getting abandoned over andover again, um, in mass, by the
white church.
He thought king thought thatthe ties between in the church
that made us brothers andsisters in christ would
transcend the race line.
He really believed that.
And so when his white, whitepastors of these churches kind

(01:00:26):
of like abandoned him, that wasdevastating to his spirit, like
it was just like, oh my gosh,like I can't believe.
And then the other thing was hepreached oh, I think it's 1965.
He preaches his beyond Vietnamspeech where he he says the
Vietnam War is unjust and it isracist, and he kind of calls

(01:00:46):
everybody out on it.
And then at that moment heloses a lot of political
leverage in the civil rightsmovement that he had developed
for so long, because people arelike whoa, wait, wait, a minute,
this is about civil rights hereat home, it's not about the
militarism over there.
And so he gets, yeah, veryworried about the direction of
the country and what he says,the soul of the country.
And so, yeah, I get worried.

(01:01:07):
I think about that, like what'sgoing on here, where this world
feels pretty bad and what doesit mean to live in the midst of
just egregious sin and cruelty,like structures of cruelty that
just kind of grow exponentiallyevery week and we're destroying

(01:01:33):
ourselves and this feels bad.
So, yeah, so that's what I'vebeen thinking about right now,
and I mean through it all.
Even though he's like that's thetitle of his sermon, he had
some other sermons before thatLisher Notes, or speeches where
he would say things likeAmerica's under judgment now or
something like that.
But it never distracted himfrom the work, it was like part

(01:01:56):
of it.
So it's not like despair, it'slike incentive for him to double
down on organizing.
So in the midst of that, he'sorganizing the the poor people's
campaign, which is this marchwhere he's getting you know, an
interracial march of basicallypeople who are poor to demand
like more egalitarian sharing,sharing of the economic

(01:02:20):
resources.
So he's organizing and he'smaking stuff happen and at the
same time thinking like, oh wow,things are bad and getting
worse, I don't know.
So that's, I feel like that'sthat's where I am these days.

Chris Nafis (01:02:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was maybe too long of an
answer for you, no, no, it wasgreat and I think I mean
honestly, like kind of, like wewere saying, I think that like
reading the stories that youhighlight in the book and others
like it, you know, like that'swhere I kind of personally find

(01:02:52):
my hope and that's, those arethe things that help me to fend
off despair.
That and the preaching rhythm, Ithink, like you said, rhythm.
I think, like you said, and youknow, hopefully, you know, my
hope and prayer is that ourchurch, you know, will be a part
of that, for ourselves and forothers in our neighborhood and
beyond.
And you know, if we cancontinue to commit ourselves to

(01:03:16):
faithfulness, into the hard workof like caring for one another,
which is very hard, um,probably in all contexts.
It feels feels especially hardin the context of homelessness,
Um, but I think it's probablyhard, no matter, you know what
your kind of demographics are.
Um, then there then, somehowout of the mess, like we'll come
like some hope, you know, anduh, and we'll stick, stick with

(01:03:41):
it and hang in there.

Isaac Villegas (01:03:42):
So yeah, and I mean I don't want to be, I don't
want this to be a trite thing,but like, as you're talking
about, we're kind of stuck inthe mess and that's where we're
living.
I mean, I I believe Jesus wasresurrected from the dead.
I mean, if there's anythingright.
It feels completely impossibleand and should like blow our
minds about what can happen.

(01:04:04):
It's like Jesus was resurrectedfrom the dead.
Yeah, all bets are off now, Iguess.
Yeah, in terms of what couldhappen, right.

Chris Nafis (01:04:16):
Well, like if you hang around in the places that
the spirit is working, or ifyou're around Jesusesus, enough
like you're gonna see some coolstuff, you know what I mean.
Like you're gonna see somethings that are that blow your
mind and that it might not beevery day.
Like some days might just bedealing with petty drama between
people who are arguing oversilly things or, you know,

(01:04:39):
narcaning someone on the ramp infront of the church, or, you
know like it might just be thatkind of stuff, but.
But if you hang around enough.

Isaac Villegas (01:04:46):
Nothing petty about Narcanning somebody, just
a pause right there.

Chris Nafis (01:04:51):
I was just thinking of examples of things that I've
done Recently that I was likeman, I really need To be doing
something else right now.
I mean like, yeah, givingsomeone Narcan Is what you need
to be doing.
But like you know what I mean.
Like I guess that is Narcan iswhat you need to be doing, but
like you know what I mean, likethat I guess that is narcan is
kind of a miraculous experienceof seeing someone who's like
literally like looks likethey're dying and then all of a
sudden they're just you know, hewas up and turned down medical

(01:05:12):
treatment and rode off on hisbike.

Isaac Villegas (01:05:14):
You gotta go to the hospital.

Chris Nafis (01:05:16):
You're gonna od again as soon as it wears off.
Anyway, that's another storyfor another time.
But but I guess what I'm tryingto say is like and not every
moment is going to be that, youknow but like, if you, if you're
around the spirit, like you'regoing to see cool stuff and like
you're going to seeresurrection, maybe, maybe in
literal way, maybe in in, like,um, in more social ways, or you

(01:05:39):
know, I don't know, but uh, butyou gotta be around, you gotta
be around, you gotta stickaround and stick it out long
enough to to kind of see thebeauty of it.
I guess, Well, I've kept you along time.
Do you have any?
Any closing thoughts oranything?
Anything you want to share onthe way out?

Isaac Villegas (01:05:54):
No, no, just thank you for taking time to
read the book and for talking tome about it and letting me
ramble here.
Yeah, this has been great.

Chris Nafis (01:06:03):
Thanks so much, chris.
For sure no, and I recommendeverybody read it.
It's, you know, like I said, Iread in a few days it's.
It's short, not in a bad way,like it's short in a really nice
way, like it's really it'sreally nice to read, it's
inspiring and hopeful.
And um, uh, just in casesomeone forgot what it's called
migrant God, a God, a Christianvision for immigrant justice,

(01:06:24):
and this is um Isaac Vegas.
Thank you so much for um, forcoming on, and um, yeah, thank
you for your friendship over theyears and just for for all of
it, yeah, thank you.