October 29, 2024 • 50 mins
How do we navigate the challenging concept of enmity within the Christian faith while remaining committed to justice and peace? Join us for a profound conversation with Melissa Florer-Bixler, pastor of Raleigh Mennonite Church, as she unpacks these complexities through her experiences and insights from her book, "How to Have an Enemy." We examine the nuances of defining true enemies, especially in the context of systemic power dynamics, and discuss how to address these conflicts with the grace and teachings of Jesus.
Anger plays a pivotal role in social change, but how can it be managed and channeled productively? We explore this influential emotion, drawing parallels to movements like Black Lives Matter and the civil rights era, showcasing anger as a driving force for societal transformation. The discussion delves into gender and racial dynamics in societal responses to anger and highlights the importance of understanding these responses to foster environments where anger can catalyze positive change.
The conversation takes a deeper look into the power of community and collective action in processing emotions like anger, emphasizing the significance of genuine connections over the isolating nature of social media. Through real-life examples, such as ICE detention and systemic issues like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, we reveal how authentic community bonds can inspire advocacy and transformation. As we strive to build strong, accountable community relationships, we find hope in acts of generosity and the transformative potential of faith amidst global chaos.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Nafis (00:00):
Hi and welcome back to the Current.
This is Chris Nafis, pastor ofLiving Water Church, and today
I'm very honored to have specialguest Melissa Flora Bixler, who
is the pastor of RaleighMennonite Church in North
Carolina.
She's graduated from Duke andfrom Princeton Theological
Seminary.
She writes for the ChristianCentury and a whole bunch of
other publications and she's gottwo books.
One is called Fire by NightFinding God in the Pages of the
(00:23):
Old Testament Very good and onethat we talk about today is
called how to have an Enemy,righteous Anger and the Work of
Peace.
Today we talk about anger, wetalk about enemies, we talk
about working toward justice andabout the work of the church
Find some hope and find someinspiration to be the people
that God calls us to be.
Here's our conversation.
(00:43):
Well, pastor, melissa, thankyou so much for spending a
little bit of your time justtalking to us and helping us.
(01:05):
This is a discipleship-focusedpodcast and really just kind of
teaching us and giving us somedirection and some inspiration.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (01:13):
Thanks for having me on today.
Chris Nafis (01:15):
For sure.
So you're a Mennonite andMennonites are.
You know.
You're primarily known, atleast in my mind.
You're primarily known as, likepeacemakers and you know for
commitment to nonviolence andand all that kind of stuff.
And I don't think everyonewould assume that like
peacemakers would would want towrite about how to have an enemy
.
So how'd you like, what madeyou want to write about having
(01:37):
enemies?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (01:39):
Yeah, I, you know, I really thought about
enemies in a more concentratedfashion during the Trump
administration and that was atime where people in my church
community were feeling differentlevels of threat from policies
(02:02):
and things that were occurringduring the administration.
We had a person from ourcongregation who was in ICE
detention during that time andother folks who just felt really
afraid, muslims in ourcommunity who were afraid,
(02:27):
muslims in our community whowere afraid, and I just began to
sort of realize that I didn'tthink I had the resources that I
needed to be able to workthrough this question of having
enemies, which again felt alittle ironic, because loving
your enemies really felt like itwas at the heart of the
Christian tradition, butcertainly in a baptism, and I
realized I didn't actually knowwhat we were talking about.
(02:52):
When we said enemies, we alwaysskip to the love your heart,
but we didn't spend a lot oftime there.
So, like everything I write, Iwrite this for myself, because
there's a question that I needanswered and I am grateful for
other people who want to join mein thinking about that thing,
(03:13):
and that's where how to have anEnemy came from.
Chris Nafis (03:17):
Well, yeah, we're grateful for your thoughts on it
.
It's been helpful to wrestlethrough it For me over the years
.
I've followed you on Twitterfor a long time.
I think you're off of there now, which is sad for all.
Well, all of twitter kind ofsucks now, but, um, but uh, I
you know it's been helpful forme to wrestle with your work,
not only this book, your otherbook and some of your writings
in the christian century, um,and so, yeah, thank you for
(03:37):
wrestling with it openly so thatwe could all join in.
I mean, enemy is such a strongword.
You know like I always feelreluctant to call anyone my
enemy and I think I'm too soft.
I'm learning from congregantsand from advocates how to, how
to kind of stand up a littlestronger in the face of.
You know justice issues,oppression and, and you know bad
(03:59):
behavior and different thingsLike what I mean.
What is an enemy?
You kind of asked that.
You know, know, so that waswhat you set out to write how do
you define enemy and how do youdetermine who you're
comfortable calling an enemy?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (04:12):
those are great questions and great
thoughts, because it's a termthat I think we hear used
loosely right, and especially insort of the way that our
politics have just splintered inmany ways over the past five or
six years.
It feels like a very commonsort of word that people go to
(04:33):
as a way to show theirparticular disdain for another
policy or person, and so Icompletely understand that sense
of wow.
We really need to be a littlemore cautious with this word,
which is why I also felt like Ineeded a little better grounding
for that language, which, invery Mennonite fashion, meant we
(04:57):
need I needed to know whatJesus thought about this right.
Um, that, if I'm really good, Iwant to use this word in the
way that the tradition ofscripture uses it, both as a way
to give some shape to that wordand to make sure that it's not
being misused of enmity todescribe the relationship
(05:28):
between Jews and Christians andhow what it felt like a
misapplication of that wordbecame a very violent otherizing
of a tradition that we actuallyshare a lot in common with
Judaism.
And so when I went back andlooked at sort of the texture of
the language of enmity inscripture, and particularly for
Jesus.
What came up over and overagain was enmity.
(05:49):
The language of calling someone, someone, an enemy comes up in
the context of a differentiationof power between those who are
being pushed under by those whohave amassed power through money
and military and politicalposturing.
(06:10):
Enmity is rarely used betweenequals.
In scripture there's a powerdifferential that separates
enmity from differences orrivalries or misunderstanding
that happened between parties.
Chris Nafis (06:26):
So like the person who you know sits in your seat
in the worship service is notnecessarily, you know, it might
be your nemesis in a certain way, but not, we're not talking
about enemies in the terms oflike just someone that I have a
disagreement with, or like afamily member that I have a
dispute with, or something.
We're talking, at least in thecontext of scripture, when Jesus
is calling us to love ourenemies, for example, or you
(06:48):
know, he says more than youthink about enemies, right, he's
talking mostly about people whohave power over you know,
especially others who aremarginalized or who are kind of
under that thumb for a while,marginalized or who are kind of
under that thumb for a while.
Um, what so?
Like if you, if you'veidentified an enemy and I still
(07:11):
feel like there's lots of wiggleroom and openness and like,
well, who?
Who determines what that powerdynamic is and what that looks
like?
But like, what's involved in?
Like once you say like okay, Ihave, I can have enemies, right,
uh, and it's these people thathold the power.
Like what does it mean?
Is it just like contempt forthem?
You know what I mean.
Like what is it?
What is involved in claimingthat?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (07:34):
I think it has more to do with
recognition of that, the powerin that relationship.
So to be able to say thisperson has been empowered or has
the power to structuredestruction over another person
(07:54):
in the way that I described thatrelationship as a relationship
of enmity.
And I think what we see inscripture that has different
sort of ways about it.
Right, there's different sortof flavors that takes on.
There's enmity that looksgenerational, like we have the
Amalekites and Israel, right,there's this generational enmity
(08:17):
that's taking place.
You have the kind that arisesout of political circumstance so
the Roman occupation Rome isthe enemy of the people of
political circumstance.
So the Roman occupation Rome isthe enemy of the people of God,
right.
And then you have sort of thesort of personal enmity that
arises David becomes an enemy toBathsheba in many ways, right,
(08:40):
I would describe that as therelationship of enmity, even
though I think the circumstancesaround this can change.
Those are some of the thingsthat we see, but I also think
something that you said as wellis something that for us to
attend to is we also recognizethat all of these relationships
(09:00):
or dynamics of enmity, theydon't happen by just by
individuals.
Right, it's the prophet Nathan,who really names that.
This is a relationship ofenmity.
There's someone else.
We live in communities thathelp us to better understand.
Are we making a claim of enmityto this relationship?
(09:23):
That's really amisunderstanding or is a place
where we are slipping into aform of life that doesn't
actually match up with the kindof response that we would need
if we were looking at arelationship of enmity and so
community.
(09:43):
I think it's really importantfor us because, you're right,
it's a discernment, right, weare actually discerning this
question together, and so weneed other people to do that
work alongside us.
Chris Nafis (09:54):
Yeah, I mean, and that gets complicated right,
because when you're discerningwhere to, where to kind of hold
and take a stand against things.
So for us, you know,homelessness is is all over our
community.
We're the epicenter ofhomelessness in San Diego and so
we find ourselves and people inour congregation doing a lot of
advocacy work around housingissues, housing insecurity,
criminalization of homelessnessand those kinds of things.
(10:16):
And it feels like anyone whocomes into power in the city of
San Diego, even if we have highhopes for them, like they end up
essentially becoming like asort of enemy because they hold
that power and they use itagainst people that we love.
And you know, in some ways,like that's for us in our
community, it's an easy placewhere we all, we all pretty much
(10:36):
agree that like this is notwhat should be happening.
But so often, like it's reallyhard when the community itself
doesn't really know like will wefall on different sides of a of
an issue, or how to resolve anissue, or or even in you know so
, like our mayor right now iskind of a liberal mayor and he's
doing some decent things, butbut he's doing other things that
(10:59):
are really, really hurtingpeople.
And so you know, like thecomplexity of it.
I mean, I don't know how do youdeal with the complexity of of
like those relationships andlike the communal discernment?
Do you have any suggestions forlike how to navigate that?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (11:14):
I, yeah, I mean, I think one of the
places where I'm sort ofshifting gears from from
scripture to organizing work is,you know, we.
We organize in the model of theindustrial areas foundation,
and one of Saul Alinsky'sphrases that has been very
helpful for me is no permanentenemies, no permanent allies.
(11:34):
Right, that they're, that thethis is also their shifts that
happen here, right, and they canshift policy to policy.
They can be shifts that happenhere, right, and they can shift
policy to policy.
They can be.
You know that you are againstus on homelessness, right, but
you do seem to want to work withus on this other issue over
here, and I think the questionis within communities, how can
(11:58):
you respond to that withsomething like accountability,
right, can, especially withpeople in power.
We live in something akin to ademocracy, I guess in the United
States, so we have somedifferent tools to work with
than I think they did in theancient world in terms of the
(12:19):
way that we can work within thestructures of power in our own
communities and still, I think,be able to hold out the
seriousness of theseconsequences for real people,
right, I think there issomething powerful for elected
officials to hear you havebecome an enemy to unhoused
(12:43):
people in our community.
Is that the relationship youwant here?
And we want to call you out ofthat enmity and into life and
into wholeness?
And I think that's sort of whatreally is at the basis of all
of this right is we are notcontent with our enemy
(13:03):
relationships.
What we believe sometime inways that feel totally absurd,
is that God is able to transformthe powers of this world and
that somehow we have somethingto do with that.
I think that begins withtruthfulness, right About what
those relationships are.
(13:24):
It's hard to transform arelationship that is painful or
broken without being truthfulabout the extent of that damage.
But really that feels like anact of repentance in some ways,
an invitation to repent of thatrelationship and to move on to
something else.
Chris Nafis (13:44):
Like naming it truthfully feels like an act of
repentance.
To start, is what you're saying, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that's where someof us so like you know I think I
may have already said this, butI'm too cushy, I'm too soft you
know, like my, especially therecovery folks are helping me to
see that, like we know, youneed to be able to like stand up
(14:06):
and and call out things forwhat they are and speak
truthfully to people whenthey're, when they're
manipulating or when they're,you know, I think, both within
the community and also beyondand sort of the advocacy work.
And like I love what you do inthe book and and you kind of
mentioned it or kind of wentthat way a little bit already
(14:27):
here but the purpose is, likethe hope is ultimately to to not
just to save the people who arelike under the thumb of the
oppressor, but also to save theone who holds the power
themselves right to see how thatis actually a dehumanization of
them also, you can say a littlebit about that.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (14:45):
Yeah, yeah, and I think this sort of
comes back to sort of beginninganswering this question by
starting with that call torepentance Right of desire among
people who are in power to wantto wash their hands of
(15:07):
responsibility for the role thatthey play.
One of the places that Iremember seeing this when I was
writing this book was no onereally wants to take
responsibility for the policythat pushed migrating peoples
out into dangerous and hotplaces and made this trek to the
(15:28):
United States a deadly one.
Everyone wants to say, oh,that's really this department or
this person or I might'vesigned that, but it really came
from this engineers or thisthink tank.
And I think the question iswhen do you ask someone to say,
okay, this is actually?
(15:48):
No, you did this right.
It may not have been you alone,but you did this.
Trying to remove yourresponsibility doesn't actually
move you to the place where youcan make this right, where you
can reconcile this thing.
In order to reconcile it, youhave to say something went wrong
(16:08):
here, have to say something.
Something went wrong here and Ihave been put in a broke.
I have put myself in a brokenrelationship to another person,
to another community, and sothis this is where this begins,
right For all of us.
I mean, this is just theChristian life.
We begin by saying I am asinner in need of grace, right,
(16:29):
and then it is.
It is an act of God toreconcile us to God's self and
to one another.
What I actually find reallydifficult is wanting that for
people who are enemies.
I find it very hard to want thewholeness of the director of
(16:50):
immigration and customsenforcement.
I have to work really hard notto want that person to suffer
deeply for what has happened.
That's so I think it soundslike you're just probably, chris
, a better person than me andyou have already reached the
point where you're like I justreally, where you have a lot of
(17:12):
like.
I just really where you have alot of like.
And so all of us, I think, havedifferent work to do.
Your work may be to say, wow, Ican name freely this
relationship, and my work is tosay I want that relationship to
be able to change this person,not to suffer.
So we all have different, youknow, many works, but the same
(17:32):
spirit.
Chris Nafis (17:33):
I mean, I do think there's something to that.
I think we have different rolesand I think in some ways, you
know my, my personality orwhatever it is that drives me to
be more, I don't know whatever.
I was using the word softbefore.
Is there is something good inthat?
But but I think like that's whyI need people like you to help
me to get past that.
I guess what.
(17:54):
I hear you talking a little bitaround or not, not like you're
trying to get around it orsomething, but you're.
You talk in your book a lotabout anger and I think that's
kind of at the heart of it forme.
Some, I think just not topsychoanalyze myself or
something, but you know I had a,I had a lot of anger in my
youth.
I was a very angry kid and itwas something that for me this
(18:17):
was a big part of my earlydiscipleship was like I was
praying to God every night takethis anger from me.
I don't want to be angryanymore.
And now I feel like God hastaken it from me and I have like
people will tell you that I'mlike a very peaceful guy, but I
feel sort of afraid to like letthe anger loose again, because
I've it will.
(18:37):
It will consume me.
You know what I mean.
It will get out of control if Iallow it to.
But you talk a lot about likerighteous anger and like the
kind of anger that is productive, that drives change and drives
justice.
What's like the role of angerin this whole world of, like you
know, understanding our placeand power systems?
(18:59):
And, yeah, where do you seeanger operating in that and how
can we use anger effectively?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (19:05):
Yeah well , thanks for sharing that story,
kristen.
I think that you know what I'malso aware of, and you saying
that, is that we live in asociety that has very different
reactions to anger depending onwhere they come from, Right, and
so I'm really grateful that youprayed that prayer, because
(19:27):
masculine anger is very welcomein our world right and
celebrated and moves people tothe top of power structures all
the time, whereas Black anger atinjustice receives a very
different response in our world.
Women's anger receives a verydifferent response in our social
order, and so, even when we'retalking about anger, you're
(19:53):
already sort of helping us get awindow into why there's even
different work for us to doaround anger depending on the
social location that we fallinto.
Right, the Black anger thatarose during the sort of height
(20:15):
of the Black Lives Mattermovement in 2020 was really
significant right.
To be able to bear witness tothat anger as white people, as
people for whom the police areoften a source of protection and
care.
That was really significant, Ithink, for the United States in
(20:36):
this particular moment, right.
So one of the I quote AudreLorde in this book, where she
sort of talks about how angercan shine a spotlight on
something right.
It can make visible somethingthat was not visible before, and
I think that anger is actuallysuch a key component to so much
(20:56):
of the social change that hashappened in our country.
I often remind people who maybefeel anxious about protest or
who want to spend most of theirtime trying to convince people
to come over to their side thatthere aren't really any social
(21:19):
movements in our country.
That happened because amajority of people were talked
into it and then we enacted asocial change.
We think about the civil rightsmovement or LGBTQ rights or
feminist movement.
All of those happen because asmall minority of people were
angry enough about their worldto organize themselves and say
(21:43):
we are going to be angry inpublic and that is going, and we
are going to utilize that angerto shift the way that our world
works.
Um, I think that we have seenreally what the power is of the,
of people being willing to sayout loud I am not going to live
(22:04):
like this anymore.
This is not the way that itshould be.
Even when that experience isreceived as anger, how can we
put, put ourselves in a positionto receive it and to treat it
even as a gift?
Chris Nafis (22:18):
Yeah, I mean because there's kind of two
sides to that, right, like it'sdealing with our own anger.
There's probably more than twosides, but dealing with our own
anger and dealing with the angerof those who we're in deep
community with as we join themin frustration.
You know, again, we feel thisin our community very strongly,
as a community that crosses alot of social structures.
You know, like we kind of carrythe anger of housing injustice
(22:42):
together but also being able tolike, receive and hear the anger
of other people that we mighthave a role of privilege in or
or someplace of responsibilityfor the thing that they're angry
about, and being able to like,hear that and receive it and not
just sort of like you know howdare you be angry like that?
You're expressing it the wrongway.
Those kinds of things can bereally unhelpful.
(23:02):
Um, and I think we're all Idon't know if we're all many of
us are tempted towards, you know, those kinds of responses, just
this discomfort with rawemotion being expressed in
public places.
I think there's like, I guess,like I see some of that I also
see.
I guess the internet culture, Ifeel like, has has a really
interesting evolving part of oursocial structure where I mean
(23:28):
you go online and it feels likeeveryone's angry all the time
and it's like what if this isreal anger?
And what if this ismanufactured to get clicks or to
get follows or you know, justto get attention?
Yeah, I don't even know.
You're actually very savvyonline, or you have been, at
(23:48):
least from my perspective.
Like, how do you figure outwhere to where to like throw in?
You know what I mean, becausethere's so many different things
to be angry about and there'sso many people who are angry
about all sorts of things Likehow do you and how to, maybe,
how do you and how do you, howdoes your church like figure out
where to where to put yourenergy?
Does that?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (24:09):
question make sense?
That's a great question.
Yeah, yeah, I, I mean, I thinkthat there is something about
solitary anger that feels likeit can fester very quickly,
right, and and I think there isa solitariness to to what is
supposed to be a communal sensewithin social media, because you
(24:32):
are not a like or a click isnot the same right, just as a
shared experience of angeraround a particular set of
circumstances, and so I don'tknow that I've seen that to be a
particularly nourishing spacefor collective anger.
I think I mentioned in thisbook, trying to remember that
(24:56):
something very striking to me isthat the imprecatory psalms,
those cursing psalms for folkswho may have not heard that
language used before, these areread in worship.
Right, these are writtensometimes from an individual,
from an individual perspective,but they aren't necessarily,
they were not written forindividuals to stew over these
(25:18):
words.
They're words that weresupposed to be said out loud
together and to be received bygod.
I think that's the other sortof difference that we're talking
about, but something likesocial media is.
There's a directionality to ouranger pretty consistently in the
bible, which is god is is theone who social media is.
There's a directionality to ouranger pretty consistently in
the bible, which is god is isthe one who catches it.
Right, there's um and even tothe point where people hold god
(25:41):
responsible for some of thesethings that are happening.
Right, if people get into itwith god all the time, they are
angry at god in um as much asthey are angry with physical
powers and principalities ofthis earth being angry together.
I think it's really importantbecause it helps us to better
(26:01):
discern what to do with thatanger and where to put it.
And yeah, there's so much goingon in our world and I would say
that one of the real gifts forme of my church, raleigh
Mennonite, is the ability toinvite others to share or hold
on to the place of the angerthat you are carrying.
(26:25):
So I mentioned that someone inour congregation had been put in
ICE detention.
Someone in our congregation hadbeen put in ICE detention.
We were collectively angryabout that, real angry, and that
really propelled us as acommunity into immigration work
around that period of time.
This was our person, right, ourperson was at the center of
(26:49):
this.
Our people in our community.
It sounds like in a similar wayto you're saying these are our
people.
Unhoused people, homelesspeople are our people.
There is, I think, as theserelationships form around church
communities, a way to inviteothers in so that you aren't
holding that anger by yourself.
(27:10):
And the way that we don't haveto hold on to that anger by
ourselves is to be able to saywhere can we put this in the
world that moves us towards?
Where can anger lead us in thisjourney towards dismantling the
system that keeps enmity inplace?
So, instead of thinking aboutthese as purely relational which
(27:33):
is sort of I think this is whatI inherited, it's just a
problem between you and me.
We got to work it out.
We would think about what's thescaffolding around our
relationship, around this systemthat keeps enmity in place.
And once we start to actuallytake that apart, a lot of this
interpersonal work kind offollows alongside of it.
Chris Nafis (27:56):
Yeah, no, that's really helpful.
And I think, like the internetspace is so isolating, as you've
kind of alluded to, wherethere's this like false sense of
community that we get or thisfalse connection that we get on
whatever, whatever you knowsocial platform that you're on,
that really leaves peopleultimately kind of alone and
(28:17):
ultimately feeling like you'rekind of screaming into a void,
even if you, even if you haveothers screaming with you and
you're in one of those you knowecho chamber cycles where
everybody likes each other'sstuff or whatever, like there's
something much more significantabout having flesh and blood
people who are part of yourcommunity.
Um, and I wonder, you know, Ithink some of the, you know, I
(28:37):
think some of the um, the waysthat our society is failing is
that a lot of those, thosecommunal spaces, are just sort
of like disappearing.
People aren't aren't gatheringas often in not only in churches
but in other ways, like peoplejust don't get together in ways
where they actually know eachother in the same ways, and that
leads us to not only anger butall these other emotions that we
(29:02):
just kind of have to deal within isolation.
And having those things festeralone is so much different than
being able to, like put them towork, as you say, to find some
productive way for that anger tomanifest itself in, in change
and movement.
We're gonna, you know, we'regonna, whatever the, whatever
the response needs to be to thissituation, like we,
collectively, are going to worktowards this together.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (29:22):
Um, I think that's that's a really
helpful way of looking at things.
Chris Nafis (29:26):
What so you've shared about ice you know it?
Or the the situation with theice detainment in your
congregation?
Are there other ways that youall are are currently uh, I
don't know what the word is.
Are you fostering any enemiesthese days?
Or like how does you know?
How are you all discerning yourway forward and enemy work?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (29:45):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's I.
This is.
All of this conversation is veryrelevant right now, with the
complicated work of this,because our congregation has
been very activated around thegenocide in Gaza this past year
(30:05):
and, as you know, there arethings that are complicated
about that and things that arenot complicated about that.
One of the things that'scomplicated about it is our
Jewish community's relationshipto Israel and the desire to both
continue to show up and be umto stand against antisemitism in
our local community and um torecognize that those are not
(30:30):
people where that part of ourcommunity does not share with us
a vision for what we, forholding Israel and the United
States accountable for warcrimes that are being committed,
and so that's been a really.
I mean, all of this feels veryrelevant to these questions that
we're asking about what does itmean to see the state of Israel
(30:51):
as an enemy?
Asking about what does it meanto see the state of Israel as an
enemy, but not Jewish peopleright At the same time and
that's really deep work, workthat I think I have only been
able to answer by continuing tomove in the direction of my
Jewish neighbors who areZionists Jewish neighbors who
are Zionists and to show up topray with them at synagogue, to
(31:14):
say, no matter where ourdifferences are on this, we will
be with you when, when becauseit's an issue of when
anti-Semitic violence comes toour community.
Chris Nafis (31:28):
So all of that has been really significant deep
work for us in this past yearwith clear intentions to not
(31:54):
give it back, um, but, on theother hand, like, this is a
scenario where everyone is issort of claiming to be the
victim, uh, and claiming youknow what I mean?
And and in some ways, everyoneis a victim and everyone is, uh,
everyone is a victim.
I don't know that everyone is aperpetrator, but like, uh, both
kind of sides of the conflicthave people who are, uh,
perpetrating or you know,sending missiles at each other
and doing things that theyshouldn't have done or shouldn't
(32:16):
do, and you can see the driftsin that community.
I feel like for us in a similarway.
You know, you go to a citycouncil meeting on any issue
around homelessness and you'llfind people who are very
legitimately upset about the waythat people who are
experiencing homelessness havemade their life pretty miserable
(32:37):
.
You know, I just walked pastthis this morning.
I walked past another thingthat had been set on fire around
our church, almost definitelyby someone who was on the street
.
You know businesses that are,you know, really struggling
because they're getting brokeninto and there's people pooping
on their front yards and stuff,but then, at the same time, like
we also recognize thecomplexity of that that, like
(32:59):
people don't want to be doingthese things.
They are also victims and youknow it's just like a mess.
You know the whole thing is amess and uh, and so navigating
that and finding a way to likecrystallize the work towards I
don't know progress is a reallychallenging thing to do.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, and this is where yeah, I
was just going to say I thinkthis is where where I think you
know, we, we, we have found somehelpful language in saying the
enemy here is is a system ofleadership in Israel.
(33:37):
I think that our, even our mostardent Jewish friends, who are
Zionists, would say Netanyahufeels like an enemy, like a
common enemy right now, and thepolicies that have gone on all
of this time for sending for noaccountability for human rights
violations, the architects ofthat system have become enemies
(34:02):
to everyday Israeli peopletrying to live their lives and
everyday Palestinian peopletrying to live their lives.
We don't need to demonizeregular people who are living in
this region, because we have acommon sense of what needs to
change, what needs to bedismantled in order to see
(34:25):
transformation happen.
And I wonder if there'ssomething similar.
Right, you don't really needit's.
It's.
It is not strong enough to saythis homeless person is my enemy
.
Right, like you have, it's thesystem that put this in place.
It is a power and aprincipality that we need to
(34:46):
name that has has brought enmityinto this system that we're
we're witnessing now.
Chris Nafis (34:54):
So absolutely yeah, and I tell people all the time
that, you know, before weplanted this church downtown,
you know, powers andprincipalities were, uh, you
know, almost like a supernatural, like hyper spiritual and that
not not imagined in a sense ofnot real, but like that, that
sort of a thing.
And as I've gotten deeper intolife in the city over the last
(35:14):
decade, it's like no, I can namethem, I know what they are.
It's that system and thatperson and that role and that
way of doing things.
Like that is the power and theprincipality In some ways.
Yeah, it doesn't have flesh andblood, but it is a very real
thing that has an active role inthe world that can be named if
we're willing to name it.
I think that's what I hear youtalking about is like truth
(35:36):
telling, right and naming thosethings and those people and
saying this is where our enmitylies, it's against this.
And again, like you know,sometimes it's really clear cut
on.
You know where that is.
But there's also times wherethe community is divided on who
to support and what.
Who the enemy is then, youngthe enemy or not?
(35:58):
You know, I think you knowmaybe that one is clarifying
over time here, but how do youall, do you, have a discernment
process in your church or how doyou suggest we find our way
through those like conversationsinternally as we try to figure
out how to like do our workexternally?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is such, this
is such an important questionbecause you know, we often say
this about police abolition,work Like if we can't even
figure out how to nonviolentlylive in this life together and
hold one another accountable,when we actually all know each
other and care about each other,how on earth can we expect to
(36:39):
live in a society where peoplefind non-violent ways to hold
each other accountable?
So I would say that this is theof the highest priority for the
christian life is yes, we gotto do it in here before you
expect anyone else to do it, andI think that what has been
helpful for us as a communityhas been to try our best to set
(37:04):
up our systems and our way ofcommunication and to structure a
life where we have just made itnecessary to have one another
to get things done.
So one example is that we makedecisions by consensus.
So you really have to talk toeverybody and figure this out.
We don't have just one personwho's upset and they vote no and
(37:29):
everybody else votes yes andthen we can just move on.
We actually have to have aconversation with that person
and then some other sort ofthings that we just, we've
really made a commitment to haveno anonymous feedback at our
church.
Like we just we really like inreviews and even online surveys,
like we do a worship surveyonce a year.
(37:50):
We just ask people to put theirneeds on things so that when
you say something that you'd bewilling to say it to other
people, right, but you, and so Ifeel like more than wow, we're
really going to sit down anddecide what we think about
abortion today.
Right, we have.
We have tried our best to justto have the pieces of our life
(38:15):
that are these small habits thatwe create together that lead us
in the direction of when we getto that point.
We've already developed habitsfor telling each other the truth
.
We've already developed habitsfor saying what we need to say
out loud, for having every voicecount in our community, for
(38:36):
knowing how to hold each otheraccountable when something goes
wrong.
We had a training last year.
And when I need to tell someonea difficult thing, what do I do?
How do I react when someonetells me a difficult thing?
Do I freeze?
Do I argue?
How can we know when we need tohold on another accountable and
(38:58):
when we need to let somethinggo?
But I think that sort of ourwork as pastors is really just
to keep developing these habitsin every part of church life so
that when we get to that pointwe can say, all right, what do
we really need to hear from oneanother.
And we've established the kindof community that can do that
with grace and patience, butalso with clarity, so that we
(39:21):
know sort of the direction thatwe want to go.
Chris Nafis (39:24):
Sometimes that happens, you know how it is,
there's all things that we wantto do.
Yeah, believe me, I know how itis.
There's all things that we wantto do.
Yeah, believe me, I know how itis.
On that one, well, you know,community formation is such an
important part of discipleshipreally, you know and I think
again, I don't know I getfrustrated with a lot of churchy
(39:45):
spaces.
Yeah, I grew up in a church thatwas very disconnected from one
another, very disconnected fromone another, and so our church,
I think, has really placed thathigh emphasis on these deep
communal relationships.
Like that goes beyond.
You know, it's not justconflict resolution, it is a lot
of that, but it's also, youknow, just like kind of the more
(40:05):
positive aspects workingalongside one another and having
conversations and prayingtogether and sharing our needs
with one another.
All those things make make itpossible, cause if we're not
connected in those other ways,then as soon as you have a
conflict, well, there's no wayto no reason to stick around
like, just go somewhere else.
You know why have thisdiscomfort.
But if you're in a stickyrelationship with somebody else,
(40:26):
that, um, that is where you'reactually committed to one
another in a deeper way than youcan have, because the community
is formed.
Then you can work through theconflict with a little bit of
safety, because you can actuallyhave the argument, you know,
and you can give the feedbackand hear the feedback.
It doesn't make easy, uh, it's,it's a it's a hard thing to do a
lot of the time, but, um, butyeah, as I said, that's
(40:48):
something that I feel like I andprobably most of us honestly in
the world these days need tolearn how to do that better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, as a pastor, how do youdeal with all the?
You know I guess I'm askingthis because I know it's hard
how do you deal with just thecarrying all the weight of all
(41:10):
those relationships and theconflicts and the?
You know there's so manydifferent things to do as a
church.
Where do I don't know, how doyou manage it all?
Can I ask that question?
Is that too personal of aquestion?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (41:38):
No, that's yeah, Some days better
than others, honestly, someseasons better than others, and
I think one piece of this for meover the years has been feeling
okay with a sense of clarityabout what this particular
church wants to be and when it'sokay for people to not want to
be a part of that anymore.
I think that that there was asense in seminary and maybe you
felt this in your training toothat our job is to keep
(42:01):
everybody in the door and keepeverybody, to manage all the
conflicts and make sure thateverybody was able to stay
together, and I think over theyears, I've just found myself
being more open-handed withsaying it seems like it's
important for this church to bewhat it is in a way that
(42:23):
provides both sort of anopenness and stretching, but
also a particularity thatprovides safety.
I think is the language thatI've gone more and more to over
the years, and so one example ofthat is our church needs to be
a safe place for LGBTQ people,and we're pretty open with about
(42:46):
that, and so if that's a placeI don't generally tell people,
yeah, we'd love for you to cometo this church, and if you don't
feel good about queer folks,that's okay.
I have a tendency to say thingslike hey, this is a place where
a lot of queer folks worshipand it's really important that
(43:07):
they feel safe and loved andcared for.
And and it sounds like thatmight be a challenge for you,
let's talk about why that's achallenge and what it might mean
for you to fit into thischurch's life or not, and
feeling more content with whatwe are able to do, who we want
(43:28):
to be.
You can throw a stone and hit25 churches in downtown Raleigh,
so it's not as if there are,you know, other places to go or
worship if this doesn't work foryou.
And so I think that has feltlike alleviating some of that
pressure and sort of both,saying we want to be a place
(43:50):
where we can move towards oneanother and once we sense where
the Holy Spirit is going, wewant to go there and we want you
to come with us if you want tobe on that journey too.
And we figure that out together, like we're on this work of
figuring this out together, butthat sort of sense that we can't
always do all of that right.
(44:10):
We can't.
We just don't have the capacityto hold that much within
ourselves.
Chris Nafis (44:16):
So yeah, yeah, I mean another way that the way
that we focus on I mean I don'tthink our church does this too
much but like the wider churchculture is so focused on stats
and numbers and everything it'sjust another way that that
breaks down our ability to dothe work we're supposed to do
Right, Because we're afraid to,we're afraid to do hard things,
(44:38):
because we're afraid of losingpeople or challenging people or,
um, or chasing people out thataren't on board with the mission
.
Um, yeah, yeah, Well, oh, youknow I want to respect your time
and not go too long here, butwhere do you find hope?
You know, like there's a lot aswe've kind of talked about
there.
We got Gaza, Israel, We've gotseveral other major world
(45:03):
violent conflicts happening.
We have, you know, this horriblepresidential election going on
and all the things that aregoing on with that, and
anti-immigration.
You know sentiments that arebeing kindled by politicians.
You know we've got all thesethings that are happening around
us.
In your book you talk about howthe hope ultimately is that
Christ will somehow bring an endto the enmity that's all around
(45:25):
us.
How do you cling to that hopein the midst of like the mess?
Where do you find hope?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (45:31):
Yeah, in the midst of, like the mess,
where do you find hope?
Yeah, we've been exploring thisquestion in our for all of
these reasons, in the sermonseries on Isaiah that I've been
preaching through, which, ofcourse, is so reflective of this
, their world, so reflective ofwhat you're just describing
right there that wars andcatastrophes and environmental
(45:54):
disasters and terrible politics.
And one of the places that I'vecontinued to to go back to is
the vision from isaiah where thewolf flies down with the lamb
and we have this predator andprey who find their way back to
(46:16):
one another right in there and alittle child is leading them
out of this place.
And I was sitting with thatscripture and and thinking about
the way that that has happenedjust in congregational life,
people who were once enemiessocioeconomically enemies to one
(46:38):
another, or people in mycongregation who left jobs
because they felt that thosejobs were predatory on people
who they knew were weaker orcouldn't take care of themselves
and they wanted to extricatethemselves from that part of the
system.
And I just thought, oh, weactually see this, this happens,
(47:00):
this vision from Isaiah isactually true in places, and
we're going to need a lot moreof that.
We're going to need a lot moreof people coming into community
and saying we're going to figureout how to do life together
here because our lives have beentransformed, which, of course,
(47:22):
is what that story is about.
Right, a lion cannot just eatstraw or it will die, right?
And yet there is somethingmiraculous that happens in being
transformed by Jesus Christ.
And in spite of it all, that iswhat we continue to, that is
our hope.
(47:42):
We continue to cling to ourbelief.
People and places can betransformed, transformed and
that, in the midst of whatevercatastrophe, god has carved out
people who refuse to leaveothers behind.
And that will be the true.
That will be true forever,because it has always been true.
(48:04):
There have always been people,the people of God, who've said
we're going to carve out a spaceand keep each other safe here,
and we're going to continue todo that because that is the work
of God among us.
So that's where I'm finding myhope these days.
Chris Nafis (48:20):
Yeah, thank you.
I mean that's the revelation ofChrist and the body of Christ
right, and the way that we are,that revelation for one another.
In these little kind ofmiraculous acts that people do
relationship with one anotherand in these little kind of
miraculous acts that people do,that no one, I don't know we
were talking about that thisSunday in our in my sermon that
no one really expects very, verymuch of one another, like we
(48:41):
expect, kind of expect, theworst from one another.
And so then when someone doessomething truly generous or
truly transformative, when theyactually leave a job behind for
the sake of the peace of thecommunity, or when they actually
, you know, sacrifice somethingof themselves or give something
of themselves, then it's amazingand there's so much hope in
(49:03):
that for all of us.
Yeah, well, yeah, thank you somuch for joining.
I want to give you the lastword, any final words to send us
out?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (49:10):
I don't want to give you the last word,
any final words to send us out,just a blessing on you and your
community as you are navigatingthese next months ahead, and
that you will find the gift thatyou need within yourselves to
be the community that your, thatyour people in your community
needs.
Chris Nafis (49:27):
Well, thank you, melissa, and, yeah, thank you
for spending the time.
I really appreciate you andappreciate your work.
Keep writing, we need it andyou're a blessing to a much,
much broader context than justRaleigh, although I know you're
a huge blessing in there andRaleigh too.
So, all right, thanks, chris.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (49:43):
It was great to chat with you.
Hi and welcome back to the Current.
This is Chris Nafis, pastor ofLiving Water Church, and today
I'm very honored to have specialguest Melissa Flora Bixler, who
is the pastor of RaleighMennonite Church in North
Carolina.
She's graduated from Duke andfrom Princeton Theological
Seminary.
She writes for the ChristianCentury and a whole bunch of
other publications and she's gottwo books.
One is called Fire by NightFinding God in the Pages of the
(00:23):
Old Testament Very good and onethat we talk about today is
called how to have an Enemy,righteous Anger and the Work of
Peace.
Today we talk about anger, wetalk about enemies, we talk
about working toward justice andabout the work of the church
Find some hope and find someinspiration to be the people
that God calls us to be.
Here's our conversation.
(00:43):
Well, pastor, melissa, thankyou so much for spending a
little bit of your time justtalking to us and helping us.
(01:05):
This is a discipleship-focusedpodcast and really just kind of
teaching us and giving us somedirection and some inspiration.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (01:13):
Thanks for having me on today.
Chris Nafis (01:15):
For sure.
So you're a Mennonite andMennonites are.
You know.
You're primarily known, atleast in my mind.
You're primarily known as, likepeacemakers and you know for
commitment to nonviolence andand all that kind of stuff.
And I don't think everyonewould assume that like
peacemakers would would want towrite about how to have an enemy
.
So how'd you like, what madeyou want to write about having
(01:37):
enemies?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (01:39):
Yeah, I, you know, I really thought about
enemies in a more concentratedfashion during the Trump
administration and that was atime where people in my church
community were feeling differentlevels of threat from policies
(02:02):
and things that were occurringduring the administration.
We had a person from ourcongregation who was in ICE
detention during that time andother folks who just felt really
afraid, muslims in ourcommunity who were afraid,
(02:27):
muslims in our community whowere afraid, and I just began to
sort of realize that I didn'tthink I had the resources that I
needed to be able to workthrough this question of having
enemies, which again felt alittle ironic, because loving
your enemies really felt like itwas at the heart of the
Christian tradition, butcertainly in a baptism, and I
realized I didn't actually knowwhat we were talking about.
(02:52):
When we said enemies, we alwaysskip to the love your heart,
but we didn't spend a lot oftime there.
So, like everything I write, Iwrite this for myself, because
there's a question that I needanswered and I am grateful for
other people who want to join mein thinking about that thing,
(03:13):
and that's where how to have anEnemy came from.
Chris Nafis (03:17):
Well, yeah, we're grateful for your thoughts on it
.
It's been helpful to wrestlethrough it For me over the years
.
I've followed you on Twitterfor a long time.
I think you're off of there now, which is sad for all.
Well, all of twitter kind ofsucks now, but, um, but uh, I
you know it's been helpful forme to wrestle with your work,
not only this book, your otherbook and some of your writings
in the christian century, um,and so, yeah, thank you for
(03:37):
wrestling with it openly so thatwe could all join in.
I mean, enemy is such a strongword.
You know like I always feelreluctant to call anyone my
enemy and I think I'm too soft.
I'm learning from congregantsand from advocates how to, how
to kind of stand up a littlestronger in the face of.
You know justice issues,oppression and, and you know bad
(03:59):
behavior and different thingsLike what I mean.
What is an enemy?
You kind of asked that.
You know, know, so that waswhat you set out to write how do
you define enemy and how do youdetermine who you're
comfortable calling an enemy?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (04:12):
those are great questions and great
thoughts, because it's a termthat I think we hear used
loosely right, and especially insort of the way that our
politics have just splintered inmany ways over the past five or
six years.
It feels like a very commonsort of word that people go to
(04:33):
as a way to show theirparticular disdain for another
policy or person, and so Icompletely understand that sense
of wow.
We really need to be a littlemore cautious with this word,
which is why I also felt like Ineeded a little better grounding
for that language, which, invery Mennonite fashion, meant we
(04:57):
need I needed to know whatJesus thought about this right.
Um, that, if I'm really good, Iwant to use this word in the
way that the tradition ofscripture uses it, both as a way
to give some shape to that wordand to make sure that it's not
being misused of enmity todescribe the relationship
(05:28):
between Jews and Christians andhow what it felt like a
misapplication of that wordbecame a very violent otherizing
of a tradition that we actuallyshare a lot in common with
Judaism.
And so when I went back andlooked at sort of the texture of
the language of enmity inscripture, and particularly for
Jesus.
What came up over and overagain was enmity.
(05:49):
The language of calling someone, someone, an enemy comes up in
the context of a differentiationof power between those who are
being pushed under by those whohave amassed power through money
and military and politicalposturing.
(06:10):
Enmity is rarely used betweenequals.
In scripture there's a powerdifferential that separates
enmity from differences orrivalries or misunderstanding
that happened between parties.
Chris Nafis (06:26):
So like the person who you know sits in your seat
in the worship service is notnecessarily, you know, it might
be your nemesis in a certain way, but not, we're not talking
about enemies in the terms oflike just someone that I have a
disagreement with, or like afamily member that I have a
dispute with, or something.
We're talking, at least in thecontext of scripture, when Jesus
is calling us to love ourenemies, for example, or you
(06:48):
know, he says more than youthink about enemies, right, he's
talking mostly about people whohave power over you know,
especially others who aremarginalized or who are kind of
under that thumb for a while,marginalized or who are kind of
under that thumb for a while.
Um, what so?
Like if you, if you'veidentified an enemy and I still
(07:11):
feel like there's lots of wiggleroom and openness and like,
well, who?
Who determines what that powerdynamic is and what that looks
like?
But like, what's involved in?
Like once you say like okay, Ihave, I can have enemies, right,
uh, and it's these people thathold the power.
Like what does it mean?
Is it just like contempt forthem?
You know what I mean.
Like what is it?
What is involved in claimingthat?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (07:34):
I think it has more to do with
recognition of that, the powerin that relationship.
So to be able to say thisperson has been empowered or has
the power to structuredestruction over another person
(07:54):
in the way that I described thatrelationship as a relationship
of enmity.
And I think what we see inscripture that has different
sort of ways about it.
Right, there's different sortof flavors that takes on.
There's enmity that looksgenerational, like we have the
Amalekites and Israel, right,there's this generational enmity
(08:17):
that's taking place.
You have the kind that arisesout of political circumstance so
the Roman occupation Rome isthe enemy of the people of
political circumstance.
So the Roman occupation Rome isthe enemy of the people of God,
right.
And then you have sort of thesort of personal enmity that
arises David becomes an enemy toBathsheba in many ways, right,
(08:40):
I would describe that as therelationship of enmity, even
though I think the circumstancesaround this can change.
Those are some of the thingsthat we see, but I also think
something that you said as wellis something that for us to
attend to is we also recognizethat all of these relationships
(09:00):
or dynamics of enmity, theydon't happen by just by
individuals.
Right, it's the prophet Nathan,who really names that.
This is a relationship ofenmity.
There's someone else.
We live in communities thathelp us to better understand.
Are we making a claim of enmityto this relationship?
(09:23):
That's really amisunderstanding or is a place
where we are slipping into aform of life that doesn't
actually match up with the kindof response that we would need
if we were looking at arelationship of enmity and so
community.
(09:43):
I think it's really importantfor us because, you're right,
it's a discernment, right, weare actually discerning this
question together, and so weneed other people to do that
work alongside us.
Chris Nafis (09:54):
Yeah, I mean, and that gets complicated right,
because when you're discerningwhere to, where to kind of hold
and take a stand against things.
So for us, you know,homelessness is is all over our
community.
We're the epicenter ofhomelessness in San Diego and so
we find ourselves and people inour congregation doing a lot of
advocacy work around housingissues, housing insecurity,
criminalization of homelessnessand those kinds of things.
(10:16):
And it feels like anyone whocomes into power in the city of
San Diego, even if we have highhopes for them, like they end up
essentially becoming like asort of enemy because they hold
that power and they use itagainst people that we love.
And you know, in some ways,like that's for us in our
community, it's an easy placewhere we all, we all pretty much
(10:36):
agree that like this is notwhat should be happening.
But so often, like it's reallyhard when the community itself
doesn't really know like will wefall on different sides of a of
an issue, or how to resolve anissue, or or even in you know so
, like our mayor right now iskind of a liberal mayor and he's
doing some decent things, butbut he's doing other things that
(10:59):
are really, really hurtingpeople.
And so you know, like thecomplexity of it.
I mean, I don't know how do youdeal with the complexity of of
like those relationships andlike the communal discernment?
Do you have any suggestions forlike how to navigate that?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (11:14):
I, yeah, I mean, I think one of the
places where I'm sort ofshifting gears from from
scripture to organizing work is,you know, we.
We organize in the model of theindustrial areas foundation,
and one of Saul Alinsky'sphrases that has been very
helpful for me is no permanentenemies, no permanent allies.
(11:34):
Right, that they're, that thethis is also their shifts that
happen here, right, and they canshift policy to policy.
They can be shifts that happenhere, right, and they can shift
policy to policy.
They can be.
You know that you are againstus on homelessness, right, but
you do seem to want to work withus on this other issue over
here, and I think the questionis within communities, how can
(11:58):
you respond to that withsomething like accountability,
right, can, especially withpeople in power.
We live in something akin to ademocracy, I guess in the United
States, so we have somedifferent tools to work with
than I think they did in theancient world in terms of the
(12:19):
way that we can work within thestructures of power in our own
communities and still, I think,be able to hold out the
seriousness of theseconsequences for real people,
right, I think there issomething powerful for elected
officials to hear you havebecome an enemy to unhoused
(12:43):
people in our community.
Is that the relationship youwant here?
And we want to call you out ofthat enmity and into life and
into wholeness?
And I think that's sort of whatreally is at the basis of all
of this right is we are notcontent with our enemy
(13:03):
relationships.
What we believe sometime inways that feel totally absurd,
is that God is able to transformthe powers of this world and
that somehow we have somethingto do with that.
I think that begins withtruthfulness, right About what
those relationships are.
(13:24):
It's hard to transform arelationship that is painful or
broken without being truthfulabout the extent of that damage.
But really that feels like anact of repentance in some ways,
an invitation to repent of thatrelationship and to move on to
something else.
Chris Nafis (13:44):
Like naming it truthfully feels like an act of
repentance.
To start, is what you're saying, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think that's where someof us so like you know I think I
may have already said this, butI'm too cushy, I'm too soft you
know, like my, especially therecovery folks are helping me to
see that, like we know, youneed to be able to like stand up
(14:06):
and and call out things forwhat they are and speak
truthfully to people whenthey're, when they're
manipulating or when they're,you know, I think, both within
the community and also beyondand sort of the advocacy work.
And like I love what you do inthe book and and you kind of
mentioned it or kind of wentthat way a little bit already
(14:27):
here but the purpose is, likethe hope is ultimately to to not
just to save the people who arelike under the thumb of the
oppressor, but also to save theone who holds the power
themselves right to see how thatis actually a dehumanization of
them also, you can say a littlebit about that.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (14:45):
Yeah, yeah, and I think this sort of
comes back to sort of beginninganswering this question by
starting with that call torepentance Right of desire among
people who are in power to wantto wash their hands of
(15:07):
responsibility for the role thatthey play.
One of the places that Iremember seeing this when I was
writing this book was no onereally wants to take
responsibility for the policythat pushed migrating peoples
out into dangerous and hotplaces and made this trek to the
(15:28):
United States a deadly one.
Everyone wants to say, oh,that's really this department or
this person or I might'vesigned that, but it really came
from this engineers or thisthink tank.
And I think the question iswhen do you ask someone to say,
okay, this is actually?
(15:48):
No, you did this right.
It may not have been you alone,but you did this.
Trying to remove yourresponsibility doesn't actually
move you to the place where youcan make this right, where you
can reconcile this thing.
In order to reconcile it, youhave to say something went wrong
(16:08):
here, have to say something.
Something went wrong here and Ihave been put in a broke.
I have put myself in a brokenrelationship to another person,
to another community, and sothis this is where this begins,
right For all of us.
I mean, this is just theChristian life.
We begin by saying I am asinner in need of grace, right,
(16:29):
and then it is.
It is an act of God toreconcile us to God's self and
to one another.
What I actually find reallydifficult is wanting that for
people who are enemies.
I find it very hard to want thewholeness of the director of
(16:50):
immigration and customsenforcement.
I have to work really hard notto want that person to suffer
deeply for what has happened.
That's so I think it soundslike you're just probably, chris
, a better person than me andyou have already reached the
point where you're like I justreally, where you have a lot of
(17:12):
like.
I just really where you have alot of like.
And so all of us, I think, havedifferent work to do.
Your work may be to say, wow, Ican name freely this
relationship, and my work is tosay I want that relationship to
be able to change this person,not to suffer.
So we all have different, youknow, many works, but the same
(17:32):
spirit.
Chris Nafis (17:33):
I mean, I do think there's something to that.
I think we have different rolesand I think in some ways, you
know my, my personality orwhatever it is that drives me to
be more, I don't know whatever.
I was using the word softbefore.
Is there is something good inthat?
But but I think like that's whyI need people like you to help
me to get past that.
I guess what.
(17:54):
I hear you talking a little bitaround or not, not like you're
trying to get around it orsomething, but you're.
You talk in your book a lotabout anger and I think that's
kind of at the heart of it forme.
Some, I think just not topsychoanalyze myself or
something, but you know I had a,I had a lot of anger in my
youth.
I was a very angry kid and itwas something that for me this
(18:17):
was a big part of my earlydiscipleship was like I was
praying to God every night takethis anger from me.
I don't want to be angryanymore.
And now I feel like God hastaken it from me and I have like
people will tell you that I'mlike a very peaceful guy, but I
feel sort of afraid to like letthe anger loose again, because
I've it will.
(18:37):
It will consume me.
You know what I mean.
It will get out of control if Iallow it to.
But you talk a lot about likerighteous anger and like the
kind of anger that is productive, that drives change and drives
justice.
What's like the role of angerin this whole world of, like you
know, understanding our placeand power systems?
(18:59):
And, yeah, where do you seeanger operating in that and how
can we use anger effectively?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (19:05):
Yeah well , thanks for sharing that story,
kristen.
I think that you know what I'malso aware of, and you saying
that, is that we live in asociety that has very different
reactions to anger depending onwhere they come from, Right, and
so I'm really grateful that youprayed that prayer, because
(19:27):
masculine anger is very welcomein our world right and
celebrated and moves people tothe top of power structures all
the time, whereas Black anger atinjustice receives a very
different response in our world.
Women's anger receives a verydifferent response in our social
order, and so, even when we'retalking about anger, you're
(19:53):
already sort of helping us get awindow into why there's even
different work for us to doaround anger depending on the
social location that we fallinto.
Right, the Black anger thatarose during the sort of height
(20:15):
of the Black Lives Mattermovement in 2020 was really
significant right.
To be able to bear witness tothat anger as white people, as
people for whom the police areoften a source of protection and
care.
That was really significant, Ithink, for the United States in
(20:36):
this particular moment, right.
So one of the I quote AudreLorde in this book, where she
sort of talks about how angercan shine a spotlight on
something right.
It can make visible somethingthat was not visible before, and
I think that anger is actuallysuch a key component to so much
(20:56):
of the social change that hashappened in our country.
I often remind people who maybefeel anxious about protest or
who want to spend most of theirtime trying to convince people
to come over to their side thatthere aren't really any social
(21:19):
movements in our country.
That happened because amajority of people were talked
into it and then we enacted asocial change.
We think about the civil rightsmovement or LGBTQ rights or
feminist movement.
All of those happen because asmall minority of people were
angry enough about their worldto organize themselves and say
(21:43):
we are going to be angry inpublic and that is going, and we
are going to utilize that angerto shift the way that our world
works.
Um, I think that we have seenreally what the power is of the,
of people being willing to sayout loud I am not going to live
(22:04):
like this anymore.
This is not the way that itshould be.
Even when that experience isreceived as anger, how can we
put, put ourselves in a positionto receive it and to treat it
even as a gift?
Chris Nafis (22:18):
Yeah, I mean because there's kind of two
sides to that, right, like it'sdealing with our own anger.
There's probably more than twosides, but dealing with our own
anger and dealing with the angerof those who we're in deep
community with as we join themin frustration.
You know, again, we feel thisin our community very strongly,
as a community that crosses alot of social structures.
You know, like we kind of carrythe anger of housing injustice
(22:42):
together but also being able tolike, receive and hear the anger
of other people that we mighthave a role of privilege in or
or someplace of responsibilityfor the thing that they're angry
about, and being able to like,hear that and receive it and not
just sort of like you know howdare you be angry like that?
You're expressing it the wrongway.
Those kinds of things can bereally unhelpful.
(23:02):
Um, and I think we're all Idon't know if we're all many of
us are tempted towards, you know, those kinds of responses, just
this discomfort with rawemotion being expressed in
public places.
I think there's like, I guess,like I see some of that I also
see.
I guess the internet culture, Ifeel like, has has a really
interesting evolving part of oursocial structure where I mean
(23:28):
you go online and it feels likeeveryone's angry all the time
and it's like what if this isreal anger?
And what if this ismanufactured to get clicks or to
get follows or you know, justto get attention?
Yeah, I don't even know.
You're actually very savvyonline, or you have been, at
(23:48):
least from my perspective.
Like, how do you figure outwhere to where to like throw in?
You know what I mean, becausethere's so many different things
to be angry about and there'sso many people who are angry
about all sorts of things Likehow do you and how to, maybe,
how do you and how do you, howdoes your church like figure out
where to where to put yourenergy?
Does that?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (24:09):
question make sense?
That's a great question.
Yeah, yeah, I, I mean, I thinkthat there is something about
solitary anger that feels likeit can fester very quickly,
right, and and I think there isa solitariness to to what is
supposed to be a communal sensewithin social media, because you
(24:32):
are not a like or a click isnot the same right, just as a
shared experience of angeraround a particular set of
circumstances, and so I don'tknow that I've seen that to be a
particularly nourishing spacefor collective anger.
I think I mentioned in thisbook, trying to remember that
(24:56):
something very striking to me isthat the imprecatory psalms,
those cursing psalms for folkswho may have not heard that
language used before, these areread in worship.
Right, these are writtensometimes from an individual,
from an individual perspective,but they aren't necessarily,
they were not written forindividuals to stew over these
(25:18):
words.
They're words that weresupposed to be said out loud
together and to be received bygod.
I think that's the other sortof difference that we're talking
about, but something likesocial media is.
There's a directionality to ouranger pretty consistently in the
bible, which is god is is theone who social media is.
There's a directionality to ouranger pretty consistently in
the bible, which is god is isthe one who catches it.
Right, there's um and even tothe point where people hold god
(25:41):
responsible for some of thesethings that are happening.
Right, if people get into itwith god all the time, they are
angry at god in um as much asthey are angry with physical
powers and principalities ofthis earth being angry together.
I think it's really importantbecause it helps us to better
(26:01):
discern what to do with thatanger and where to put it.
And yeah, there's so much goingon in our world and I would say
that one of the real gifts forme of my church, raleigh
Mennonite, is the ability toinvite others to share or hold
on to the place of the angerthat you are carrying.
(26:25):
So I mentioned that someone inour congregation had been put in
ICE detention.
Someone in our congregation hadbeen put in ICE detention.
We were collectively angryabout that, real angry, and that
really propelled us as acommunity into immigration work
around that period of time.
This was our person, right, ourperson was at the center of
(26:49):
this.
Our people in our community.
It sounds like in a similar wayto you're saying these are our
people.
Unhoused people, homelesspeople are our people.
There is, I think, as theserelationships form around church
communities, a way to inviteothers in so that you aren't
holding that anger by yourself.
(27:10):
And the way that we don't haveto hold on to that anger by
ourselves is to be able to saywhere can we put this in the
world that moves us towards?
Where can anger lead us in thisjourney towards dismantling the
system that keeps enmity inplace?
So, instead of thinking aboutthese as purely relational which
(27:33):
is sort of I think this is whatI inherited, it's just a
problem between you and me.
We got to work it out.
We would think about what's thescaffolding around our
relationship, around this systemthat keeps enmity in place.
And once we start to actuallytake that apart, a lot of this
interpersonal work kind offollows alongside of it.
Chris Nafis (27:56):
Yeah, no, that's really helpful.
And I think, like the internetspace is so isolating, as you've
kind of alluded to, wherethere's this like false sense of
community that we get or thisfalse connection that we get on
whatever, whatever you knowsocial platform that you're on,
that really leaves peopleultimately kind of alone and
(28:17):
ultimately feeling like you'rekind of screaming into a void,
even if you, even if you haveothers screaming with you and
you're in one of those you knowecho chamber cycles where
everybody likes each other'sstuff or whatever, like there's
something much more significantabout having flesh and blood
people who are part of yourcommunity.
Um, and I wonder, you know, Ithink some of the, you know, I
(28:37):
think some of the um, the waysthat our society is failing is
that a lot of those, thosecommunal spaces, are just sort
of like disappearing.
People aren't aren't gatheringas often in not only in churches
but in other ways, like peoplejust don't get together in ways
where they actually know eachother in the same ways, and that
leads us to not only anger butall these other emotions that we
(29:02):
just kind of have to deal within isolation.
And having those things festeralone is so much different than
being able to, like put them towork, as you say, to find some
productive way for that anger tomanifest itself in, in change
and movement.
We're gonna, you know, we'regonna, whatever the, whatever
the response needs to be to thissituation, like we,
collectively, are going to worktowards this together.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (29:22):
Um, I think that's that's a really
helpful way of looking at things.
Chris Nafis (29:26):
What so you've shared about ice you know it?
Or the the situation with theice detainment in your
congregation?
Are there other ways that youall are are currently uh, I
don't know what the word is.
Are you fostering any enemiesthese days?
Or like how does you know?
How are you all discerning yourway forward and enemy work?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (29:45):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's I.
This is.
All of this conversation is veryrelevant right now, with the
complicated work of this,because our congregation has
been very activated around thegenocide in Gaza this past year
(30:05):
and, as you know, there arethings that are complicated
about that and things that arenot complicated about that.
One of the things that'scomplicated about it is our
Jewish community's relationshipto Israel and the desire to both
continue to show up and be umto stand against antisemitism in
our local community and um torecognize that those are not
(30:30):
people where that part of ourcommunity does not share with us
a vision for what we, forholding Israel and the United
States accountable for warcrimes that are being committed,
and so that's been a really.
I mean, all of this feels veryrelevant to these questions that
we're asking about what does itmean to see the state of Israel
(30:51):
as an enemy?
Asking about what does it meanto see the state of Israel as an
enemy, but not Jewish peopleright At the same time and
that's really deep work, workthat I think I have only been
able to answer by continuing tomove in the direction of my
Jewish neighbors who areZionists Jewish neighbors who
are Zionists and to show up topray with them at synagogue, to
(31:14):
say, no matter where ourdifferences are on this, we will
be with you when, when becauseit's an issue of when
anti-Semitic violence comes toour community.
Chris Nafis (31:28):
So all of that has been really significant deep
work for us in this past yearwith clear intentions to not
(31:54):
give it back, um, but, on theother hand, like, this is a
scenario where everyone is issort of claiming to be the
victim, uh, and claiming youknow what I mean?
And and in some ways, everyoneis a victim and everyone is, uh,
everyone is a victim.
I don't know that everyone is aperpetrator, but like, uh, both
kind of sides of the conflicthave people who are, uh,
perpetrating or you know,sending missiles at each other
and doing things that theyshouldn't have done or shouldn't
(32:16):
do, and you can see the driftsin that community.
I feel like for us in a similarway.
You know, you go to a citycouncil meeting on any issue
around homelessness and you'llfind people who are very
legitimately upset about the waythat people who are
experiencing homelessness havemade their life pretty miserable
(32:37):
.
You know, I just walked pastthis this morning.
I walked past another thingthat had been set on fire around
our church, almost definitelyby someone who was on the street
.
You know businesses that are,you know, really struggling
because they're getting brokeninto and there's people pooping
on their front yards and stuff,but then, at the same time, like
we also recognize thecomplexity of that that, like
(32:59):
people don't want to be doingthese things.
They are also victims and youknow it's just like a mess.
You know the whole thing is amess and uh, and so navigating
that and finding a way to likecrystallize the work towards I
don't know progress is a reallychallenging thing to do.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, and this is where yeah, I
was just going to say I thinkthis is where where I think you
know, we, we, we have found somehelpful language in saying the
enemy here is is a system ofleadership in Israel.
(33:37):
I think that our, even our mostardent Jewish friends, who are
Zionists, would say Netanyahufeels like an enemy, like a
common enemy right now, and thepolicies that have gone on all
of this time for sending for noaccountability for human rights
violations, the architects ofthat system have become enemies
(34:02):
to everyday Israeli peopletrying to live their lives and
everyday Palestinian peopletrying to live their lives.
We don't need to demonizeregular people who are living in
this region, because we have acommon sense of what needs to
change, what needs to bedismantled in order to see
(34:25):
transformation happen.
And I wonder if there'ssomething similar.
Right, you don't really needit's.
It's.
It is not strong enough to saythis homeless person is my enemy
.
Right, like you have, it's thesystem that put this in place.
It is a power and aprincipality that we need to
(34:46):
name that has has brought enmityinto this system that we're
we're witnessing now.
Chris Nafis (34:54):
So absolutely yeah, and I tell people all the time
that, you know, before weplanted this church downtown,
you know, powers andprincipalities were, uh, you
know, almost like a supernatural, like hyper spiritual and that
not not imagined in a sense ofnot real, but like that, that
sort of a thing.
And as I've gotten deeper intolife in the city over the last
(35:14):
decade, it's like no, I can namethem, I know what they are.
It's that system and thatperson and that role and that
way of doing things.
Like that is the power and theprincipality In some ways.
Yeah, it doesn't have flesh andblood, but it is a very real
thing that has an active role inthe world that can be named if
we're willing to name it.
I think that's what I hear youtalking about is like truth
(35:36):
telling, right and naming thosethings and those people and
saying this is where our enmitylies, it's against this.
And again, like you know,sometimes it's really clear cut
on.
You know where that is.
But there's also times wherethe community is divided on who
to support and what.
Who the enemy is then, youngthe enemy or not?
(35:58):
You know, I think you knowmaybe that one is clarifying
over time here, but how do youall, do you, have a discernment
process in your church or how doyou suggest we find our way
through those like conversationsinternally as we try to figure
out how to like do our workexternally?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is such, this
is such an important questionbecause you know, we often say
this about police abolition,work Like if we can't even
figure out how to nonviolentlylive in this life together and
hold one another accountable,when we actually all know each
other and care about each other,how on earth can we expect to
(36:39):
live in a society where peoplefind non-violent ways to hold
each other accountable?
So I would say that this is theof the highest priority for the
christian life is yes, we gotto do it in here before you
expect anyone else to do it, andI think that what has been
helpful for us as a communityhas been to try our best to set
(37:04):
up our systems and our way ofcommunication and to structure a
life where we have just made itnecessary to have one another
to get things done.
So one example is that we makedecisions by consensus.
So you really have to talk toeverybody and figure this out.
We don't have just one personwho's upset and they vote no and
(37:29):
everybody else votes yes andthen we can just move on.
We actually have to have aconversation with that person
and then some other sort ofthings that we just, we've
really made a commitment to haveno anonymous feedback at our
church.
Like we just we really like inreviews and even online surveys,
like we do a worship surveyonce a year.
(37:50):
We just ask people to put theirneeds on things so that when
you say something that you'd bewilling to say it to other
people, right, but you, and so Ifeel like more than wow, we're
really going to sit down anddecide what we think about
abortion today.
Right, we have.
We have tried our best to justto have the pieces of our life
(38:15):
that are these small habits thatwe create together that lead us
in the direction of when we getto that point.
We've already developed habitsfor telling each other the truth
.
We've already developed habitsfor saying what we need to say
out loud, for having every voicecount in our community, for
(38:36):
knowing how to hold each otheraccountable when something goes
wrong.
We had a training last year.
And when I need to tell someonea difficult thing, what do I do?
How do I react when someonetells me a difficult thing?
Do I freeze?
Do I argue?
How can we know when we need tohold on another accountable and
(38:58):
when we need to let somethinggo?
But I think that sort of ourwork as pastors is really just
to keep developing these habitsin every part of church life so
that when we get to that pointwe can say, all right, what do
we really need to hear from oneanother.
And we've established the kindof community that can do that
with grace and patience, butalso with clarity, so that we
(39:21):
know sort of the direction thatwe want to go.
Chris Nafis (39:24):
Sometimes that happens, you know how it is,
there's all things that we wantto do.
Yeah, believe me, I know how itis.
There's all things that we wantto do.
Yeah, believe me, I know how itis.
On that one, well, you know,community formation is such an
important part of discipleshipreally, you know and I think
again, I don't know I getfrustrated with a lot of churchy
(39:45):
spaces.
Yeah, I grew up in a church thatwas very disconnected from one
another, very disconnected fromone another, and so our church,
I think, has really placed thathigh emphasis on these deep
communal relationships.
Like that goes beyond.
You know, it's not justconflict resolution, it is a lot
of that, but it's also, youknow, just like kind of the more
(40:05):
positive aspects workingalongside one another and having
conversations and prayingtogether and sharing our needs
with one another.
All those things make make itpossible, cause if we're not
connected in those other ways,then as soon as you have a
conflict, well, there's no wayto no reason to stick around
like, just go somewhere else.
You know why have thisdiscomfort.
But if you're in a stickyrelationship with somebody else,
(40:26):
that, um, that is where you'reactually committed to one
another in a deeper way than youcan have, because the community
is formed.
Then you can work through theconflict with a little bit of
safety, because you can actuallyhave the argument, you know,
and you can give the feedbackand hear the feedback.
It doesn't make easy, uh, it's,it's a it's a hard thing to do a
lot of the time, but, um, butyeah, as I said, that's
(40:48):
something that I feel like I andprobably most of us honestly in
the world these days need tolearn how to do that better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, as a pastor, how do youdeal with all the?
You know I guess I'm askingthis because I know it's hard
how do you deal with just thecarrying all the weight of all
(41:10):
those relationships and theconflicts and the?
You know there's so manydifferent things to do as a
church.
Where do I don't know, how doyou manage it all?
Can I ask that question?
Is that too personal of aquestion?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (41:38):
No, that's yeah, Some days better
than others, honestly, someseasons better than others, and
I think one piece of this for meover the years has been feeling
okay with a sense of clarityabout what this particular
church wants to be and when it'sokay for people to not want to
be a part of that anymore.
I think that that there was asense in seminary and maybe you
felt this in your training toothat our job is to keep
(42:01):
everybody in the door and keepeverybody, to manage all the
conflicts and make sure thateverybody was able to stay
together, and I think over theyears, I've just found myself
being more open-handed withsaying it seems like it's
important for this church to bewhat it is in a way that
(42:23):
provides both sort of anopenness and stretching, but
also a particularity thatprovides safety.
I think is the language thatI've gone more and more to over
the years, and so one example ofthat is our church needs to be
a safe place for LGBTQ people,and we're pretty open with about
(42:46):
that, and so if that's a placeI don't generally tell people,
yeah, we'd love for you to cometo this church, and if you don't
feel good about queer folks,that's okay.
I have a tendency to say thingslike hey, this is a place where
a lot of queer folks worshipand it's really important that
(43:07):
they feel safe and loved andcared for.
And and it sounds like thatmight be a challenge for you,
let's talk about why that's achallenge and what it might mean
for you to fit into thischurch's life or not, and
feeling more content with whatwe are able to do, who we want
(43:28):
to be.
You can throw a stone and hit25 churches in downtown Raleigh,
so it's not as if there are,you know, other places to go or
worship if this doesn't work foryou.
And so I think that has feltlike alleviating some of that
pressure and sort of both,saying we want to be a place
(43:50):
where we can move towards oneanother and once we sense where
the Holy Spirit is going, wewant to go there and we want you
to come with us if you want tobe on that journey too.
And we figure that out together, like we're on this work of
figuring this out together, butthat sort of sense that we can't
always do all of that right.
(44:10):
We can't.
We just don't have the capacityto hold that much within
ourselves.
Chris Nafis (44:16):
So yeah, yeah, I mean another way that the way
that we focus on I mean I don'tthink our church does this too
much but like the wider churchculture is so focused on stats
and numbers and everything it'sjust another way that that
breaks down our ability to dothe work we're supposed to do
Right, Because we're afraid to,we're afraid to do hard things,
(44:38):
because we're afraid of losingpeople or challenging people or,
um, or chasing people out thataren't on board with the mission
.
Um, yeah, yeah, Well, oh, youknow I want to respect your time
and not go too long here, butwhere do you find hope?
You know, like there's a lot aswe've kind of talked about
there.
We got Gaza, Israel, We've gotseveral other major world
(45:03):
violent conflicts happening.
We have, you know, this horriblepresidential election going on
and all the things that aregoing on with that, and
anti-immigration.
You know sentiments that arebeing kindled by politicians.
You know we've got all thesethings that are happening around
us.
In your book you talk about howthe hope ultimately is that
Christ will somehow bring an endto the enmity that's all around
(45:25):
us.
How do you cling to that hopein the midst of like the mess?
Where do you find hope?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (45:31):
Yeah, in the midst of, like the mess,
where do you find hope?
Yeah, we've been exploring thisquestion in our for all of
these reasons, in the sermonseries on Isaiah that I've been
preaching through, which, ofcourse, is so reflective of this
, their world, so reflective ofwhat you're just describing
right there that wars andcatastrophes and environmental
(45:54):
disasters and terrible politics.
And one of the places that I'vecontinued to to go back to is
the vision from isaiah where thewolf flies down with the lamb
and we have this predator andprey who find their way back to
(46:16):
one another right in there and alittle child is leading them
out of this place.
And I was sitting with thatscripture and and thinking about
the way that that has happenedjust in congregational life,
people who were once enemiessocioeconomically enemies to one
(46:38):
another, or people in mycongregation who left jobs
because they felt that thosejobs were predatory on people
who they knew were weaker orcouldn't take care of themselves
and they wanted to extricatethemselves from that part of the
system.
And I just thought, oh, weactually see this, this happens,
(47:00):
this vision from Isaiah isactually true in places, and
we're going to need a lot moreof that.
We're going to need a lot moreof people coming into community
and saying we're going to figureout how to do life together
here because our lives have beentransformed, which, of course,
(47:22):
is what that story is about.
Right, a lion cannot just eatstraw or it will die, right?
And yet there is somethingmiraculous that happens in being
transformed by Jesus Christ.
And in spite of it all, that iswhat we continue to, that is
our hope.
(47:42):
We continue to cling to ourbelief.
People and places can betransformed, transformed and
that, in the midst of whatevercatastrophe, god has carved out
people who refuse to leaveothers behind.
And that will be the true.
That will be true forever,because it has always been true.
(48:04):
There have always been people,the people of God, who've said
we're going to carve out a spaceand keep each other safe here,
and we're going to continue todo that because that is the work
of God among us.
So that's where I'm finding myhope these days.
Chris Nafis (48:20):
Yeah, thank you.
I mean that's the revelation ofChrist and the body of Christ
right, and the way that we are,that revelation for one another.
In these little kind ofmiraculous acts that people do
relationship with one anotherand in these little kind of
miraculous acts that people do,that no one, I don't know we
were talking about that thisSunday in our in my sermon that
no one really expects very, verymuch of one another, like we
(48:41):
expect, kind of expect, theworst from one another.
And so then when someone doessomething truly generous or
truly transformative, when theyactually leave a job behind for
the sake of the peace of thecommunity, or when they actually
, you know, sacrifice somethingof themselves or give something
of themselves, then it's amazingand there's so much hope in
(49:03):
that for all of us.
Yeah, well, yeah, thank you somuch for joining.
I want to give you the lastword, any final words to send us
out?
Melissa Florer-Bixler (49:10):
I don't want to give you the last word,
any final words to send us out,just a blessing on you and your
community as you are navigatingthese next months ahead, and
that you will find the gift thatyou need within yourselves to
be the community that your, thatyour people in your community
needs.
Chris Nafis (49:27):
Well, thank you, melissa, and, yeah, thank you
for spending the time.
I really appreciate you andappreciate your work.
Keep writing, we need it andyou're a blessing to a much,
much broader context than justRaleigh, although I know you're
a huge blessing in there andRaleigh too.
So, all right, thanks, chris.
Melissa Florer-Bixler (49:43):
It was great to chat with you.
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