Sook Kyoung Kwon and Jamie Rosen: Art, Trauma, and the Path to Healing

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What if the path to healing trauma lies not just in talking about it, but in experiencing it differently through creative expression? In this illuminating conversation, Pastor Chris Nafis sits down with expressive arts therapists Jamie Rosen and Sook Kyoung Kwon to explore the profound connection between creativity, trauma healing, and spiritual growth.

Both therapists share their compelling journeys into expressive arts therapy—Sook Kyoung's transition from Korean theater artist to drama therapist working with refugees, and Jamie's path from trial attorney to finding healing through creative expression after personal loss. They explain how expressive arts therapy integrates multiple creative modalities (visual art, music, movement, writing, drama) to help people process trauma in ways that traditional talk therapy often cannot reach.

"Trauma happens outside and affects inside," Sook Kyoung explains, describing how overwhelming experiences become stored in our bodies, affecting our capacity for connection and joy. The therapists demonstrate how creative expression offers a way to externalize difficult emotions without retraumatization, while "tricking" the nervous system into releasing calming hormones through sensory engagement and play.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn as they discuss how religious communities—despite historically embracing embodied practices like music, art, and ritual—have often moved away from these healing elements, emphasizing cognitive belief over embodied experience. "We live in a world where good enough isn't okay... you're supposed to be happy all the time," Jamie observes, highlighting how perfectionism undermines our resilience. The therapists invite listeners to rediscover the joy of play, sensory engagement, and authentic connection that can rebuild our capacity for spiritual growth.

Whether you're carrying personal trauma, supporting others through hardship, or simply seeking greater resilience in challenging times, this conversation offers practical wisdom for reconnecting with your innate creativity as a pathway to healing. As Jamie powerfully concludes: "It's not the word, it's the work."

Episode Transcript

Chris Nafis (00:00):
Hi and welcome back to the Current.
This is Pastor Chris Napis ofLiving Water Church and today
very blessed to have joining ustwo of my favorite people who
I've gotten to work closely withover the last several years as
we have developed someprogramming around trauma in our
church Two expressive arttherapists who are involved in
restorative justice and justactual art and performance Jamie

(00:23):
Rosen and Suk-Yong Kwan.
These two are amazing.
They're so much fun to bearound.
They're such a joy to have uhworking alongside of us and many
in our church have gotten toknow at least Suk-Yong and some
of us have gotten to know Jamiealso.
They are just a blessing to bearound.
It's always a joy to haveconversation with them and I was
really blessed to be able tosit down with them and talk

(00:44):
about trauma and art andcreativity and spirituality and
how all these things go together.
So I hope you'll enjoy ourconversation as much as I did
here.
It is all right, jamie and sookyoung.

(01:12):
Thank you guys so much forcoming on to this podcast.
It's like you are some of myfavorite people.
It's been such a joy to work.
How many years have we workedtogether now?

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:22):
uh, well, you guys know each other.
Yeah.

Chris Nafis (01:24):
So yeah, hi, um, it's, it was before covid a long
time for suk young and I yeahlike 16 17 yeah, 2016 we were
doing the women's tea and someof the stuff, and then we got
into the flow groups and thenjamie came along and that was
maybe 2021 yeah, it was beforecovid too yeah, was it no, no,

(01:44):
no, no, no, it's during COVID.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:45):
It was during, I think, we started to, you
know, build the program duringCOVID and then, right after
COVID, we started our firstgroup.

Chris Nafis (01:55):
Yeah Well, we've had like a lot of meetings and
every time it's just like a joyto be with you too, because
you're just like like joyful,pleasant people who are so like
thoughtful and kind and havebeen really generous with your
time, and so thank you all forgiving a little bit more of your
time for us today well, thefeeling is mutual um, I thought

(02:16):
I'd ask.
So both of you are arttherapists and I thought
expressive arts, expressive arttherapists.
I'm sorry, I'm glad youexpressed that.
Yes, um, I, um.
I.
I was just saying before westarted, like I don't even think
I know the full story of howeach of you kind of got into
this work and specifically causeyou both have.
Also our work at living waterhas focused a lot on trauma and

(02:38):
learning about trauma theory andhow this affects kind of our
spirituality and our ability todo what we want to do.
Um, but how did you all getinto, first of all, expressive
arts and then how did that leadyou into doing all this work and
trauma that you guys have beendoing for a lot longer than I've
known you, I think.

Jamie Rosen (02:56):
Well, I'm going to defer to Suk-Young first for her
story, because she met youfirst and that's through her
beautiful experience that I gotto work with Living Water and
you Okay.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (03:09):
So I was born and raised in Korea and my first
job was a performing artist.
So as a theater artist, I wasso in the power of arts, you
know, I was so in the power ofarts.
But the commercial, you know,field of theater and performing

(03:31):
wasn't a good fit for me and Irealized that after I started
acting as a professional actor.
Then I found this drama therapy.
So, you know, of course, I wentback to school and studied
counseling and became a dramatherapist and started to work
with, you know, all thosemarginalized populations that I

(03:55):
really enjoyed working with,like juvenile homelessness, and
you know, especially, you know,my favorite group to work with
was the North Korean Refuges.
So that work was so rewarding,of course, at the same time it
was really challenging but lifechanging and so transformative.

(04:17):
After I moved to state I kindof lost that connection with the
art.
And then you know community andhealing and helping, and I was
like really struggle with, likeyou know, immigration at.
You know, I became you were now.

Jamie Rosen (04:38):
You were now the refugee immigrant.
Yeah, yes, yes, yeah, Goodpoint, your narrative immigrant.
Yeah, yes, yes yeah, good pointyour narrative shifted.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (04:44):
Yes, so, uh, as as an immigrant, you know, as
a foreigner, and I neverthought I would be minority yeah
, big minority where you were.
So I was really struggling to,you know, to observe that idea.
And then then I started torealize, like you know, I need

(05:05):
some healing, I need some workon myself.
And then I remembered that youknow, my power is in art, why
don't I go back there?
And then I started to kind offind the, you know, the
reconnection point, and I wasable to come back to, you know,
performing, and then I foundexpressive art therapist

(05:29):
community.
From there, yeah, so you know,I went back.
Of course you know, I went, hadto go back to school to get the
certificate, and then you know,and then, and then the right,
right, you know, and then theright track of becoming a
therapist, that let me practicehere.

Jamie Rosen (05:52):
Right and then we met, she met me.
So we met in school expressivearts therapy school Okay.
First year first day.

Chris Nafis (06:01):
First day of school .

Sook Kyoung Kwon (06:02):
Yeah, same cohort.

Chris Nafis (06:04):
Fast friends, and then yeah.

Jamie Rosen (06:06):
And so my journey into expressive arts, I think,
was started in childhood,probably.
Like I feel, like all thetrauma that I had as a child and
stress I would take to the arts, like I would paint and draw
and I had my own imagination andI'd macrame and do all kinds of
crafts.

(06:26):
Um, and fast forward many years, I went to college and then I
went to law school and I waswell actually, let's back up
when I was in college in psychand art, I worked at Orange
County juvenile detention and Iwent there two days a week and I
got to go in and work with agroup of youth and it was

(06:47):
amazing because they at thattime they were more liberal
about what you could bring in.
So I bring in paint and brushesand drums and instruments and
cool journaling stuff and clayand toys and we would like make
things.
And I noticed that these youthjust I mean I had no skills as a
therapist or restorativejustice or anything back then

(07:09):
but the one thing I did noticeis when we were playing with the
materials, everybody gotengaged and started interacting
and talking in different waysand seemed excited and the
energy levels shift.
And then I'd ask them to journaland keep journals.
Energy level shift and then I'dask them to journal and keep
journals and then I noticed thisemergence of hope and

(07:30):
excitement about their futuresstart to arise and I attribute
always attributed it to themaking and the doing and then
fast forward for me.
I was tired of practicing law.
I went into a whole nothercareer which we don't need to go
into, and I went through adifficult divorce and my mom

(07:51):
dying and losing a business allat the same time, and my kids
were a mess and I was a mess andI had kind of lost my art
practice like you talked about,and I noticed that it was only
through drawing every day andpainting every day, even if it
was for five minutes, and mydaughter dancing and my son
cooking and playing drums thatwe began to like find light in

(08:15):
the midst of the dark yeah, andI was like okay, I already know
this to be true that the realhealing is, for us, is in the
making and the doing and thearts.
And so I quit all my othercareers and decided I was going
to reengage with the arts.
And then I found the ExpressiveArts Institute.

Chris Nafis (08:35):
Okay, and so both of you kind of came to this as
like this long like arediscovery of arts from like an
earlier stage in life and a wayto work through your own kind
of changing lives and our owngrief, our own grief trauma,
yeah, yeah, yeah it's beautiful.
And now you're now your griefand trauma has been kind of
turned and opened up to help,like all these people that you

(08:57):
guys have, um, you know, engagedwith over the years.
And so what do you?
What do you do now, like, forpeople that don't really know
what, like, expressive artstherapy is?
What do you do?
Where do you do it?

Sook Kyoung Kwon (09:09):
um, yeah, uh, should I sure?
Yeah, so expressive art therapy, it is therapy.
Expressive art therapy is like,in a broader term, like, uh, we
use uh, multiple art modalities.
It's not only visual art, butwe use music and sound, voice,

(09:34):
movement, dance, nature, writing, poetry, journaling and, of
course you know, drama,storytelling, what else, what
else?
Photography?

Chris Nafis (09:46):
It can be anything creative.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (09:48):
Yeah, creative art modalities, and the reason
why we kind of, you know,integrate all those different
modalities is like we try tomeet the client where they are
at, what they're mostlycomfortable with, and then you
know it's an easy, you know,access to the art, but also it

(10:09):
serves the client the way thatthe client can, you know, like,
explore their inner and you knowtheir situations in a more free
form.
I would say, you know, open andfree form.
Free form, I would say, yeah,open and free form.
So my work as a therapist, likeI would say, there's like two

(10:30):
big different.
Well, the two fields, like onepart is more like clinical
setting.
So I am part of LM CounselingCenter and through that
counseling center I meetindividual or couple or, like
you know, group to do sessions,you know, using creative method

(10:58):
to help them heal and, you know,learn about themselves.
So it's more, like, you know,focusing on clinical setting.
But the other part is more likea community setting, because
expressive art therapy can applyto, like a group settings and
support groups and, you know,different types of training
classes, workshops.

(11:18):
So either way, like you know,we want to offer, I want to
offer, you know, expressive artsprocess to bring healing and
growth.

Chris Nafis (11:32):
And so you've done it both in like a more formal
clinical setting.
And then also and that's how,probably how we got connected,
because you came and we're doingwomen's tea, which was somewhat
informal, but you were probablyusing a lot of the same kind of
modalities, like women wouldcome, they would drink tea, they
would have this like kind ofclose time together and you guys
would do all kinds of art andjust a lot of like beautiful

(11:54):
things come in, people lovedcoming to the tea and I think
COVID Tea and arts, yeah, yeah,two great things.
And then, and you've done somelike improv stuff also, yeah, so
you kind of work in both, bothof those sort of settings, and
is that, would you say, that'sthe same for you, jamie.

Jamie Rosen (12:11):
Well, no, because mine's a little bit different.
And, um, I think Suk-youngmissed a big part of her work
too, the second step of her work.
She talked about Ilhamcounseling, but she didn't talk

(12:32):
about the creator's patch.
Well, that's.
Yeah, I knew that you are goingto run that up.
So I'm going to back up for asecond, because I realized I
kind of left a cliffhanger.
I was like, oh, in college Iworked in orange county, you
know, and worked with juveniles.
But what I didn't say is I wentahead and went to law school
and when I was in law school Ifelt like I after, while I was
in law school, I felt like Ishouldn't be there.
There was so much conflict and Iwas very traumatized by it,

(12:55):
Like in school itself PTSD inschool, and then I went ahead
and practiced as a trialattorney and what I realized is
you know, you can make a goodargument, you can appear and you
can reduce sentences and youcan do all these things, but I
didn't feel like I was helpingpeople with the tools and
resources that would buildresilience and joy and help them
through difficult obstacles andchallenges.

(13:16):
So I was just doing a quick fixmoment to moment thing that
didn't have anything to do withlike a of being, and so it felt
very shallow and hollow to me,and so that is another reason I
gave myself permission to changecareers and it happened,
coincidentally, as a result ofall the trauma, right, um?

(13:37):
And so when sukyung and I bothgot began at the institute, we
had different tracks she was theindividual therapy track and I
was the group conflictresolution and peace building
track, and my niche has alwaysbeen I do individual work, but I
I love group work and I loveworking with groups that are

(13:59):
having a hard time buildingconnection or have obstacles or
challenges, and like helpingthem connect with their senses
and their innate wisdom andstuff to to build a new way of
being together.
And so sook young and I formedour own company.
Well, we've always workedtogether through school with
marginalized populations likeunsheltered families and youth

(14:22):
immigrants and refugees.
I worked with veterans.
We've worked with um.
Who else have we worked with?

Chris Nafis (14:30):
I've worked with survivors of torture and you do
groups in juvenile hall rightneurodivergent adults and kids
and parents of neurodivergentkids foster youth like a whole.

Jamie Rosen (14:41):
Yeah, gamut right yeah, range and incarcerated,
like informally incarcerated,and we both had a passion for
that and so we started doingtrainings when restorative
justice, too, and restorativepractices when we were in school
, and we both took to thatinstantly and integrated that

(15:01):
into expressive arts therapywith all of our group work and
became certified in thosepractices restorative justice
but how do we do restorativepractices that build and change
community and overcome adversityand harm through restoring

(15:32):
tools?
Right, but we also bring inexpressive arts therapy and
somatic and body-based sensorywork in order to supplement and
kind of just weave everythingtogether.
And that's where we formed thecreative patch and also, I think
, at the tail end of thepandemic, right yeah?
And we were just we were justnoticing people were suffering,

(15:54):
groups were suffering, and thatwe needed not just transactional
change.

Chris Nafis (15:59):
We needed something that was life giving and
sustaining, because sometimes wecan just create something
different for a moment in time,and we wanted to help people
start being a different waytogether yeah, and I mean you
all work with so many differentpeople that have encountered
hardship in like all thesedifferent ways and I think what

(16:20):
part of what strikes me aboutthis like just the arts in
general, but especially the kindof like therapeutic arts and
group work that you all do isthat where so many of like the
systems that we encounter youknow, I see most of this through
the lens of our church work,which is a lot of people, you
know, struggling withhomelessness, but that touches

(16:40):
criminal justice and addictionand you know immigration and all
those things.
Kind of homelessness kind oftouches everything, you know.
But what I see is that thereare all these ways that the
world just kind of chews peopleup and people engage with these
systems that are that are harshand they're meant to sort of
sustain themselves and you knowthe criminal justice system is
just trying to kind of get getby or something like you know

(17:00):
I've gone to some court caseskind of get get by or something.
Like you know I've gone to somecourt cases.
I remember I was a witness in acase and I just came out of
there thinking like whatever theoutcome of this case, like
there is no chance ofeverybody's harmed.
Yeah, and so what?
But what you all have done islike really dedicate yourself to

(17:21):
actually building resilienceand connection and community and
people that can help people toheal and be able to navigate,
like just the hardships of lifemore fully.
Does that sound accurate?

Jamie Rosen (17:29):
yeah, and I think I think that's the goal of both
of our work is like how do welean into our existing strengths
, yeah, and how do we alsoenhance those?
and how do we build newregulation?
And?
And once we can do that, we canbuild co-regulation and social
engagement and connection withother human beings, which is

(17:50):
essential to you know, we knowthis scientifically that to
ignite our social engagementsystem cultivates a release of
neurobiologically of hormonesthat allow you to stay regulated
and to enhance the way you showup and your sense of self
empowerment and efficacy.
And which makes me think aboutthe spiritual community.

(18:12):
Right, like when people arevery, very stressed or have a
lot of trauma, usually what'sgoing on is they are carrying a
lot of survival energy in theirbody and the chemicals are
causing them to check out fromthemselves in the world and
fracturing their relationships,their own sense of being, and

(18:32):
it's hard to be spiritual andfind the support you need and,
when you're like, have all thatrampaging through your system.

Chris Nafis (18:44):
Yeah, I mean we've this is kind of of how we framed
our the flow groups that we'vedeveloped, which, if anyone's
listening to this, doesn't knowwhat that is.
You know, contact us, look onour website.
We've done a lot of work aroundflow groups.
I don't think we're going toaddress that too directly here
today, but how we've pitchedthat group kind of to the
community is that this is theseare groups that are meant to be
sort of practice groups, healinggroups that allow us to

(19:05):
actually engage in the spiritualdisciplines that we want to
engage in.
Like we spend so much time inthe church talking about
cognitive things, learning,belief, doctrine kind of study
and that kind of thing like theside of our thinking, side of
our brain, and I think many ofus like know what we should do,
we know what we want to do,brain, and I think many of us

(19:26):
like know what we should do, weknow what we want to do, but
like the difference betweenknowing how to be in the world
in a way that is, you know,loving others, loving God,
learning to love and be at peacewith ourselves and walking, you
know learning like knowing whatto do to do those things and
then actually being able to dothat are two very different
things, and for a lot of people,I think, just the trauma, the
grief, the hardship that theycarry, that we carry, is a big
barrier in that.

(19:46):
I think we can even have someself-awareness about that.
Actually, a lot of people haveself-awareness, but then how do
you get over that hump, and Ithink the work that you all are
doing is like a big part of ofthat.
Does that sound my own trackthere?

Jamie Rosen (19:56):
I mean, I think that that switch that goes off
when you're able to tap into,like, like you said, the knowing
is one thing.
You can educate somebody abouttheir trauma, you can like talk
about it verbally, but it's whenfeeling the sensations and how
they affect their body and thenalso feeling like when we do

(20:17):
something like play together,sing a song together, chant
together, make a collage or cookbread together, like noticing
the shift in our body, like ourbody is now producing something
different, feeling wise and thatchoosing to feel that, even if
it's for small periods, at atime, and then you know the

(20:37):
feeling so you can begin tocreate that regulation, beyond
making the bread or doing thecollage, or chanting or singing
to each other, yeah, yeah, likeyou said it yourself, it's
knowing versus being Right.
That's a way to show up foryourself, right?

Chris Nafis (20:54):
Could you, could you guys share just a little bit
about, like, what is the?
How does trauma specifically,or just like the hardships of
all of, like just the lives onthe margins, how does that
affect that?
Like, how do people come to you?
You know what I mean before um,learning how to regulate.

(21:14):
Like what, how do, how do thosethings affect our bodies, our
minds?
You've shared, you've yeah.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (21:23):
So, if there isn't really, like you know,
clear boundary of differentthings that we can look for
about, you know, oh, this iswhat symptoms, like you know,
from traumatized person, butthere is like emotional part

(21:46):
that we can feel not regulated,you know, not in control.
Also, there's like a lot ofphysical symptoms that we suffer
and also, you know, it affectsour cognitive ability.
But but also, you know, overall, you know, spirituality is also

(22:09):
affected by trauma and othersufferings.
And when I you know, I now alsothink you know, this society is
somewhat misused the termtrauma, traumatized.
Traumaused the term trauma,traumatized Trauma, trauma
trauma.
Yeah, and you know sometimesit's overusing and you know,

(22:31):
degrading the weight of you know, trauma.
So really simply say traumahappens outside and affects
inside.
So what?
Changed in inside, that's.
That's you know what we calltrauma, and uh something that is

(22:51):
happening outside affect us.
Uh, too big, too much or toofast it happened too fast so we
couldn't really like find aappropriate way to cope.
Or too long, too often.
So trauma isn't something likebig, you know well, it can be

(23:17):
yeah, it can be, but not only.
Not only you know like knowsmall things add up and what
brings the awareness is likewhen people kind of reach you
know the tolerance level, like,oh, I can't really do it anymore
or I don't know what I can do,and oftentimes you know there

(23:53):
are close people would noticelike oh, my friend or my family
needs help, needs somethingdifferent.

Jamie Rosen (23:55):
Like they're either sleepy or they're overreacting
to situations.
They're not able to get up andmotivate and get normal everyday
tasks done.
They're not eating right,they're not sleeping right, like
a lot of usually.
It's, it's, it's a wholespectrum, yeah, it's.
You can notice things that arebiological, but everything's so
intricately tied, so it's psycho, bio, social, right.

(24:17):
Like it affects your ability toengage with other people.
You don't want to talk to otherpeople.
You know socialize.
You don't want to go out.
It can affect you in so manyways.
Um, yeah, yeah and um so.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (24:32):
So there's like so many different layers,
so many different areas that wecan look after, uh, but also, uh
, there is this like mentalhealth stigma still.
It's getting better.
You know, I really appreciatethe pandemic for that.

Jamie Rosen (24:54):
But especially in a lot of these marginalized
populations, the stigma is evenworse, like because certain
populations really frown uponlooking to others for help or
admitting to the distress ofbeing emotionally distressed.
People don't want to look weak.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (25:11):
Right, yeah, right.
And then, you know, oftentimesthey just tap into like easier
or not helping, coping, you know, strategies, and that makes you
, that makes things worse, andoftentimes they just look normal
outside, but when behind theclosed door they're really

(25:34):
suffering and feels like there'sno help at all.
And what I'm really sad, youknow sad about, and you know, is
like for a lot.
I am Christian myself and Igrew up in church, church
community, you know, all myfamily, you know.
But church also doesn't reallysupport that in a way that it

(26:00):
should be.
I am not talking as a, you know, like mental health
professional, but I'm talking asa, you know, member of the
church.
That you know, sometimes thesaying and the learning and that
you know, all those practicesthat we do throughout the church
doesn't really support mentalhealth in a way, and sometimes

(26:26):
people just believe that, okay,if I just, you know, have more
faith, it will go over.
You know, I'll, you know,overcome whatever.
You know, the problem that I amexperiencing now and I try to
educate, try to bring moreawareness, you know, especially

(26:50):
for my loving, you know, churchcommunity, that mental health is
, like you know, just same asphysical health, you know.
Get checked up.
You know, because you're doingannual physical checkup, you
know mental checkup is like sameas that and get treat, get
treatment and get help.
You know, outside of the church, if they feel like this is kind

(27:13):
of like a spiritual thing, youknow they kind of.
You know, some people try tojust stick with their like
religious practice only.
Well, I believe that helps.
And the ritualistic part of theworship and then the community
that church is offering to thepeople.

(27:36):
You know that is all reallyreally good and really
supportive.
But also, you know, know thereis strong um, uh way, you know
stronger way that they, they canbe healed and treated and then
we can support.
So, yeah, so I, I really wantchurch, community, uh, have more

(28:00):
awareness that's so interesting.

Jamie Rosen (28:02):
It's so interesting because I grew up in the Jewish
faith and I pretty muchdespised going to synagogue and
going to religious school andthere was like this way of the
way people showed up inconversation Like if you went to
services and you were fiveminutes late, you were frowned
on or locked out, right.

(28:22):
If you didn't sit perfectlystill in the conformed synagogue
, you were a bad person, right.
If you got up to go to thebathroom, you were a bad person.
So if you were taking care ofyour bodily impulses or needs,
you were a bad person.
And then when we'd have supposedcommunity, like discussions
with the rabbi, like the waypeople would talk over each
other and tell each other theydon't know what they're talking

(28:44):
about and like you know, it'ssupposed to be this rabbinical
dialogue and discussion, right.
But it was like disrespectfulthe way it was done and like
other people's opinions didn'tcount or differences of opinions
didn't count.
And so I I've often thoughtabout when, if it, if I hadn't
gone to jewish sleepaway camp inthe mountains where we had

(29:06):
relationship with nature and wegot to play together and do
other things together, Iprobably would have rejected my
religion Probably.
But it was like this otherenvironment where people were
curious about me and, instead ofarguing, we made challah
together, we danced together, wesang prayers together, we built

(29:27):
Jewish altars or like wrote ourown prayers and Torahs, like it
was much more open, whereeverybody got to participate,
everybody mattered, we learnedand cultivated values and morals
, instead of just being toldwhat your morals and values
should be.
And so I think it does bringinto into question, which is
part of the work we all gotinvolved with.
Yeah, with um shelly rambo atboston university right, which

(29:50):
is how can we whether it'sspiritual or otherwise in terms
of our organizations andcongregations how can we help
people be concerned about?
How does trauma impact the waypeople show up and how
organizations and structures run?
So what do we need to do tosupport people so that we can

(30:14):
build healthier hives wherepeople feel connected.
Everybody wants to take part init, everybody feels like they
have an important role right, sothat we all rise together.
And so I think that allspiritual organizations, all
companies, all healthcare,everybody needs it.
Yeah, because, like Sook Youngwas talking about, what is

(30:37):
trauma?
It's too much for too long andyour body loses its ability to
stay regulated.
Like, all of a sudden, you haveno energy.
All of a sudden you have noenergy.
All of a sudden you feel likeyou can't accomplish anything.
There's a problem, and so andthat's that can happen to anyone
I mean, one of my mentors callstoday a trauma scene instead of

(30:58):
paleo scene.
That trauma is so wide rightnow.
But it's not PTSD level trauma.
There's all different levels oftime.
But if it's interfering withyour ability to do daily chores
and have find some amount of joyand your day meaningful
relationship.

Chris Nafis (31:16):
Meaningful relationships, then you're
having trauma response and it'sinteresting you bring the
sleepover camp because so manyof like when we were learning
some of the modalities early onwith you, as you all were
teaching us, like what you doand in your group.

Jamie Rosen (31:31):
It's like going to camp right.

Chris Nafis (31:32):
So many of them I was like we literally did this
at high school camp.
You know like this is and itbrings you back to that, and
those, those experiences are sogood for so many people, you're
saying because they're deeplyconnecting, they're physical and
they're they're um, there'sjust this like way of getting

(31:52):
out of kind of the, the kind ofstrict structures of like your
normal life, and into this likekind of wild place where you're
free to somewhere somebody toldus where it became not okay to
play.

Jamie Rosen (32:03):
Yeah, right like formal sports or formal board
games are OK, but like just playand laughter and listening to
each other in that playful wayall of a sudden became
irresponsible.

Chris Nafis (32:15):
Yeah.

Jamie Rosen (32:15):
Instead.
Of this is a way of being, andconnecting, and having
relationship.

Chris Nafis (32:20):
Yeah, well, and especially I feel like in church
settings, where we want to takeeverything so seriously, I
think, like we're, I think, as aas I you know, I'm a pastor
obviously I think like part ofthe part of our role is to try
to get people to take theirspiritual lives seriously, that
that, that this stuff mattersand it you know, it's always a

(32:40):
fight for priorities with workand family and everything else
and to say, like, this stuffmatters, and so there's this.
I feel like we have thispressure to like no, you like
pay attention to this stuff, butthen this, this, the stuff is,
uh, like when you take it tooseriously, it kind of loses
itself in a way you know what Imean like you have to be able to
, to like there's, there's needsto be joy in it and play in it,

(33:02):
and that can be challengingsometimes well what I love about
you know, religious groups, youknow can be a very good
platform to offer this kind ofservice, Right, but religious

(33:25):
congregations, the ritualisticpart, if we see that there's so
many good elements already.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (33:38):
Like you said, there's always music involved,
there is poetry we readscriptures, we recite them and
there is always invitingmovement together.
We read, you know, scriptures,you know we recite them, and
there is always, like you know,inviting movement together, the
ritualistic movement togetherand, of course, the prayer.
You know all those things andyou know we do retreat, we do

(34:04):
small groups.
So I think you know thosereligious practices have like
potentials and I believe youknow we might lost some of those
.

Jamie Rosen (34:13):
Like you know, the first beginning of this, you
know, grouping, um instinct oflike this brings us hope, this
brings us joy, this brings uslike strong, uh, feeling of

(34:37):
connection because you know it's, it happens on a spiritual
level that's so interesting,because I was talking to a
friend the other day was talkingabout I went with them to
church and they were going upfor communion and the cracker
and I was like asking questionsand then we left and we were
having an order somewhere and Iwas like so what goes through

(34:58):
your mind when you get out ofyour seat and you're standing in
line and you walk up there andyou wait and then they give it
to you and he's like nothing,like I'm just going up there to
get my cracker and like that.
But I'm like so, like, do younotice the energy of the people
around you?
Do you feel the heaviness ofsomebody's heart?

(35:19):
Do you like think about yourfootsteps and your journey from
your seat up to there?
And like so.
We had this really deep, reallyprofound conversation and he's
like huh, and I'm like well, Igo, like now when I fold the
laundry, I take the laundry upand I hug it and I go oh my gosh
, this feels so warm so warm andsoft and cuddly and oh my gosh,

(35:40):
I needed that hug from thelaundry.
And then I go to the counter andI start folding and I'm like,
oh, this is such a nice movementlike.
So I'm finding something within, something that gives us back
to our unconscious and ourspirituality and our way of
being.
And I think that's what you'retalking about.
And you're talking about andI'm talking about is sometimes

(36:01):
we we get so life is so busy,there's so much to do, there's
so many hard things that we'retasked with every day that we
lose this reflective abilitythat engages our senses, that
naturally helps us buildresilience, because it's a
neurobiological response.
Right, and it might be pickingup my superwoman because off the

(36:26):
shelf to support me today,because you know I need a little
bit of oomph or whatever, butshe gives me that yeah and like
oh, she makes me laugh, she'sfun to play with and we don't
give ourselves enough of that.

Chris Nafis (36:40):
If you're just listening to this, jamie has
like a.
It's like a rubber figure andyou know both of us.
You.
It's like a rubber figure andyou know both of us.
You can kind of pick the figurethey have a lot of toys here
with it, and so they've got oneon the video support uh, but
like having that tangiblephysical little thing and that
like physical connection, andthen I think, not just having it

(37:00):
as you're saying with thecommunion story, but like
becoming aware enough right,actually enjoy and be present in
the, in the thing I mean.

Jamie Rosen (37:09):
to me you were saying, well, she's cricket,
like she's leaning, and I'm like, well, even super women and our
wonder woman has her days wherelike has to lean somewhere.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (37:19):
You have to lean, I need to lean on the
speaker.

Jamie Rosen (37:22):
I need to lean.
Lean on Sue Young's friend andChris.
Like it's okay, it doesn't makeme less.

Chris Nafis (37:27):
Two things can be true at the same thing I can
need some help and still besuperwoman For sure, and I think
like I think that's wheresometimes the message of the of
the church and you know myexperience is in is in the
church, you know, mostly in theProtestant lower church
traditions Um, it's.
It's like we're like kind oflike what I hear you saying.
Sukyong and I really have cometo see this, as we've done the

(37:47):
work over the last few yearsLike it's right there for the
church Right.
It's right there, but so oftenwe push against the things that
actually bring healing and Ithink the church tends to just
expand our sense of isolation bymaking it all this individual
thing that we're doing.

(38:08):
It's about your faith and yourdecisions and your practice, and
are you having your quiet timeand you're reading by yourself
and are you in your study andkind of breaking it down from
the communal work that we aremeant to be doing together,
which I think goes against ouractual theology and doctrine.
And it goes against yourneurobiology and it goes against
our neurobiology, yeah, andthen so on thatology, yeah, and
then so on that sense.

(38:28):
And then I think we also likethere's this um pressure to like
hyper spiritualize everythingwhich makes it disembodies our
practices and our beliefs morelike I would call that uh hyper
cognitive okay, hyper cognitiveyeah yeah, well, yeah, I think
that's right because I thinkwhat it is I mean I can get into

(38:49):
this's like a.
It goes back to Plato, you know, separation of mind and body.
Yeah, this is dualism where youknow the physical is kind of bad
, or at least it's not worthpursuing.
And I think a lot of churchesstress about, um, getting too
much.
You know, like, the church Igrew up in had no art anywhere.
It was very kind of stark, itwas in a warehouse type setting.

(39:11):
Yeah, and my, I mean we're in,we're not in a traditional
church space, I live in watereither, but we do have art
around and stuff and but I thinkit was intentional and they
would talk about it because theywere kind of pushing back
against some of the rituals andart and you know, thinking of
some of the things that are inlike the Catholic church or
other high church traditionsthat are sort of more ornate, um

(39:31):
, because they don't want us toget caught in the ritual, they
want us to get caught in thebelief, and I don't, I think
that's like a dualism, that'sjust like a false dualism.
And we, when we uh sort of stripthose things of ourselves, I
mean of course we don't want toworship the painting or whatever
you know, but like if, if wecan incorporate art in beauty
and sensory things, smell andtaste and all those things into

(39:56):
our spiritual lives in ways thatconnect us to one another.
That's where, like, all thehealing happens Right and that's
where the vibrancy of ourspiritual lives and the joy and
the, that's where this stuffit's like, like I said, it's
just like right there and I feellike I'm it gets me really
excited because, like, I feellike I don't know that we've
sort of figured out how to ummaximize it in our church

(40:18):
community.
I think we're getting better atit, we're learning, but it just
feels like there's like abreakthrough right there.
If we and as the church youknow, bigger than just my little
church um, if we can kind oftake step through the thing,
then there's like potential forlots of healing and goodness I
was.

Jamie Rosen (40:36):
I love that.
And I was thinking the other.
Well, it's been a couple monthsnow but I was in synagogue for
an event and you know we sangtogether and and I noticed when
we sing together I immediatelyfeel peace, right, and I was
thinking about like we sangtogether.
Canter got off stage, rabbi wenton and I was like the somatic

(41:00):
practitioner and expressive artstherapist me was like wouldn't
it be beautiful if the rabbi hadsaid wow, did you all witness
and just hear all the vast,beautiful individual voices, how
they came together?
And like everybody's voice isdifferent, even people had
different tunes and sounds andlike what was that like for you?

(41:23):
Like think about it, like howmagnificent that is, and like
that breath and that sharing thebreath, and like just
capitalizing on the connection.
Because I noticed there waspeople who weren't singing too
and oftentimes the people whoaren't singing don't feel safe
singing right because they'reworried about their voice or
being out of tune, like me, whoI'm always out of tune, but I've

(41:44):
got because I'm an expressiveart therapist, I've somehow
overcome that.
I don't care because the joybrings me more right, but like
it gives us freedom to deepenour ritual and to deepen our
connection, and that's just likea little teeny thing.
The spiritual leader in myinstance could have done that in
my could have like connectedpeople in a whole nother way and

(42:09):
it would have taken 10 seconds.

Chris Nafis (42:11):
Yeah, I mean.
So just going back to the camp,thought like some of the most
sort of moving times in camp wasin like war, like music,
worship together, absolutely.

Jamie Rosen (42:21):
All these high school kids.

Chris Nafis (42:22):
there's no shame, Everyone's just kind of belting
a hundred percent.
I'm not, I've never been asinger but like I don't have to
worry about my voice becauseeveryone's singing so loud.
I agree, but now in church,every time, even even though
it's usually like Rachel or oneof my kids sitting next to me,
I'm still thinking.
The whole time I'm singing I'mlike are they listening to me?
Cause I know I don't have, youknow, and I like give into and

(42:44):
release those inhibitions.
Then it's a profound experiencethere first yeah.

Jamie Rosen (42:50):
And in that experience, like at the Jewish
camp it was not the firstShabbat, it was like hours of
singing and dancing afterShabbat dinner and like holding
hands and running around anddoing the dances and I'm like
they don't give us permission todo this at the synagogue.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (43:04):
Why not?

Jamie Rosen (43:05):
Right.
Well, so at a wedding maybe?

Sook Kyoung Kwon (43:09):
Yeah, to do this at the synagogue, why not?
Right?
Well, so at a wedding maybe,yeah, yeah, yeah, I am, like you
know, sometimes like reallyangry about, you know, the
education system.
Like you know that's actually.
You know, like like give uh allour children, you know uh not,
like you know, encourage them toenjoy uh all those like sensory

(43:31):
things, but more, like you knowuh, give them a little bit of
shame and fear you're not goodenough to voice.
You don't draw good enough likeyou know, uh, you're not an
artist and you know you have tohave certain voice to sing.
You have to have certain skillsto enjoy painting.

(43:53):
You have to have certain bodyto you know move and dance.

Jamie Rosen (43:57):
Be a theater dancer .

Sook Kyoung Kwon (43:58):
Yeah, and that fear is, like you know,
everywhere now, everywhere, now,like every, every individual
carries a certain amount of thatfear.
That is, like you know, it'snot only self-conscious about
like how to present in the world, but it's more like how to be,
how to be.
So, if we can regain reconnectwith that, like you know,

(44:24):
innocent childlike, you know,joy of playing, joy of enjoy our
body, joy of like using oursenses and whatever we are given
from god, you know, uh, in in aplayful way we call that.
You know, uh, the psychologicalterm is like range of play,

(44:45):
range of play.
So, uh, I think, you know,usually we start, like you know,
like like open, oh yeah, openrange, you know we're trying to

(45:14):
bring up is like, okay, we canextend the range, we can open up
the range and you titrate it.

Jamie Rosen (45:23):
You titrate it by giving little Little bit of, and
they don't require skill, likethis notion in the schools that
you have to be an artist oryou're not an artist.
It's just not right.
Like we are all born, this iswhat expressive arts philosophy
is.
We're all born creative humanbeings and we all have the
capacity to engage ourimagination.

(45:44):
We all have the capacity toplay, and so we.
How can we use our hands if wedon't have hands our?
body our senses to be playfuland explore different um
surfaces, different touch,different smells, different
tastes, and see what things doand through that it enlivens you

(46:08):
, it starts to build, get yoursystem to start to feel safe and
playful.
I mean, we were just working inthe jail yesterday with some
women and we started really slowwith just make a sound together
and then we said like let'sbring in another sound and let's
add, and it got so we did bodyfull.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (46:29):
It got so painful.

Jamie Rosen (46:30):
So these women who are 100 shut down no range of
play, like barely can get out ofbed to come to our group right
and come in like this, and theywere like yeah you know, and
everybody played along, but itwas also individually.

(46:52):
They wouldn't do that.
So it was the us giving them aninvitation and then there being
no shame and like no judgment,and seeing that you can be
playful and not be judged, andthen it becomes easier and grows
the range.
Yeah, and so magic can really I.
I always tell clients andgroups that we're our, we can be

(47:14):
our own magician and we cantrick it's literally trick our
nervous system into releasinghappy hormones, healthy
connection hormones, and we havethe control to do it.
Like I can come in here andcomplain to you about my
horrible day and everything thathappened.
Everything's wrong.
Or I could come in and go oh mygosh, look at all these.
I wonder what her story isRight, and then start having a

(47:38):
story with Suk-hyun and, atleast for the moment, I'm
releasing new hormones that canbuild a potential new way of
being, maybe for five minutesnow, maybe 20 minutes later, but
these things can helpcompletely change our nervous
system.
And so that's the power ofexpressive arts.

(47:58):
Isn't about like fine arts.
Yeah it's about engaginganything with your imagination
and creativity so that you canuse it as a tool or resource to
build resilience and joy andcuriosity and fun.
And like how I can play withher, but she also has a story,
so I can write a story.
Oh, she probably has a song, asoundscape, what would she be

(48:22):
singing?
And then write the song, dance,dance.
To put the dance to the song,and then you're changing your
whole story through the third,so you're able to not sometimes
in talk therapy when we keeptalking about our own story.
It's too vulnerable and it willre-traumatize us.

(48:42):
But if things start to come outwith her or her or her, it's
outside of us, so we can revisitit in a way that feels safe
yeah, a lot of the creativemediums like there's enough, um,
it's, you can be.

Chris Nafis (48:58):
You can be kind of vulnerable in a measured way
because you don't have to be so.
On the point of like this isright.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (49:04):
What happened to me?

Chris Nafis (49:04):
I'm sharing you the worst moment of my life or
something, but you can expressthe emotion of that and the feel
, the you know, just all sortsof aspects of that, while
keeping the event itself kind ofshrouded a little bit and only
expose what you want to.
You know what I mean, right,and I think, and I think all
this, like I think for for youknow, this is a church podcast

(49:27):
and a churchy audience and Ithink, like where this is, where
this is really exciting for mein the um, on the faith front,
is that, like this is the stuffthat can help us to lead vibrant
spiritual lives, which, to me,is not just about believing the
right things.
I think theology matters and I,you know, I've spent a lot of
my life studying theology.

(49:48):
But I think learning, like theeducation, is not just that
cognitive, intellectual thing.
It's like our physicaleducation and how to actually
connect with other people.
Right, if we're supposed to loveGod and love others, then that
means we have to learn how to bea little bit vulnerable with
other people and open up to themand receive their vulnerability
right, and if we want to like,open up to them and receive
their vulnerability right, andif we want to, like, learn how

(50:10):
to serve and do hard things thatGod may be calling us to do, we
have to have some resilienceand some strength that, like we
don't.
If we're always kind of closedup on ourselves, if we're always
feeling, you know, threatened,if we're always kind of pushing
everyone away because we justkind of can't handle, you know,
opening ourselves up, we havethis narrow range of play, as

(50:31):
you guys said, or, you know, wehave all this rigidness in
ourselves Then we're not goingto actually enjoy the life that
God has given us and we're notgoing to actually be a joy to be
around for others.

Jamie Rosen (50:40):
Well, he's not asking of you just a belief
system.
He's asking for you to be havea way of being.

Chris Nafis (50:46):
Right system.

Jamie Rosen (50:48):
He's asking for you to be, have a way of being
right, exactly just like ifyou're a restorative
practitioner.
It's not like in this settingI'm restorative, yes, I
b-e-i-n-g.
Being it all the time right.
Well, of course we're human.
We make errors.
But how do I, how do I be agood, the spiritual person all
the time?
There's values and ways ofbeing that you want to embody.

Chris Nafis (51:11):
Right, if I want to be a person of hope, then maybe
doing some of the things youwere just describing, right,
instead of just kind of cyclingthrough all the negative stuff
which many of us you know we'reall doom scrolling and you know,
with there's so much negativityand cynicism this is
confessional for me because I'mlike too cynical, right, but if
I can learn how to kind of turnmyself towards more of this
hopeful stuff and more of thecreativity and the openness and

(51:33):
the joy, then that can affect mywhole life, right, and the
lives of everyone around me.
Yeah.

Jamie Rosen (51:38):
And I love when I, when we've been working with you
with the flow group, right,like they have the privilege of
hearing back from people withinthe groups or from people
running the groups, that thethings that would happen for
people, that would enhance theirspirituality, would enhance
their way of being able toembrace and act in alignment

(52:00):
with their values and morals.
Right, and you know, for me oneof the big breakthroughs is in
um 2023, a book finally came out, the brain, on art and because
because we we caught, we'vealways called the research we've
done in expressive artsarts-based research.
So, by interviews and by youknow your artistic response to

(52:22):
this the poem or the song is theresearch that it matters.
But now somebody finally did agood job of compiling, like
scientific.
Because, right, our worldrelies on the brain scans and
the body scans and thescientific got to justify
everything part of the brainevidence.
So now we know that certainparts of the brain that enhance

(52:42):
resilience light up when we'reengaging in all of these
artistic, creative, embodiedforms like dance, poetry, music,
chanting, singing.
And so we're like, okay, here'sthe science.
For you scientific people whodon't buy into the importance,
like it's not arts and crafts,it's not unnecessary play, it's

(53:06):
part of, like, indigenouscultures around the world,
there's a reason that they livean artistic life.
That's in connection withnature and that's because it
allows us to be resilient umthriving individuals versus like
surviving, right, right.

(53:27):
And there's like all of thosethings Our body picks up
neurologically on ourenvironment and we interocept
constantly and exterocept safety.
So if we're out of equilibriumand don't find all of these
things, the interaction and thehealth that we can derive from
these tools, then no wonderwe're out of balance.

Chris Nafis (53:50):
I mean, it's just and spiritual traditions have
been doing this stuff forever,right?
That's the irony of it.

Jamie Rosen (53:55):
Right, and they've known it forever.

Chris Nafis (53:57):
Yeah, we've known this for thousands of years.
Now there's like brain scansand scientific ways to sort of
measure things.
But now we've got to call thespiritual communities back to
doing what has been a part ofthe tradition.

Jamie Rosen (54:09):
Well, just like acupuncturists and alternative
medicine people have known thisbecause they're intuitive and
they listen to the body's wisdom, as do spiritual leaders.
They're with people, they'reconnected to people, they're
reading people.
Modern medicine was based on acadaver.
The nervous system,understanding, was based on a
cadaver in the past, so wereally didn't understand this
stuff until we actually had moreof these light up systems.

(54:32):
So, um, once again, I thinkexpressive arts and all of this
spirituality is about listeningto our inner wisdom, which is
often right, right, and thenwe've lived in a world that has
turned us towards.
We have to read it in atextbook, or somebody has to
have told us it's okay to dothat.
We can't trust that, and soit's like you said.

(54:55):
That's so interesting.
Spiritual people have beendoing it for centuries yeah,
since the beginning of time.

Chris Nafis (55:01):
Back to our own roots and our own tradition and
our own practices.
Yeah, some of the greatest artin the history of the world is
all coming out of spiritualtraditions and spiritual you
know, absolutely People payingfor spiritual art that depict
the stories and the symbols andthe things that have been so
meaningful for us for so long.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (55:20):
So it's all about reconnecting, restoring,
you know, the beauty and thewisdom that we always had.

Jamie Rosen (55:27):
Yes, but I think what's really important is this
can all sound like great Right,but we live in a modern world
where there's a lot of stress, alot of aggravation, a lot of
situations, and so the abilityto find things that when first
educating yourself about yourown nervous system so that you

(55:48):
can tell when you might needsome help and some support, and
educating yourself, what doessupport look like?
Support could be walking in thegrass or smelling the flowers
right, it doesn't have to besomething that's super expensive
and so that's knowing thatenlivening the senses is going
to bring you to the presentmoment and it's going to help

(56:10):
you release and trick yournervous system into releasing
some healthy hormones, and itmay just get you through the day
.
You may have to go then treatyourself to your favorite food
or a hot bath, like sometimes.
We just have to keep doinghealthy alternative things that
do enliven our senses.

Chris Nafis (56:28):
yeah and it kind of reverses the spiral right, like
as we can spiral downward intothe negative stuff where you
know you start feeling bad, sothen you develop a bad habit and
then that makes you feel worse,and then it breaks your
connections and then you kind ofgo.
But you can reverse the cycleif you start to, as you're
saying, kind of trick yournervous system or if you start
to do the practices that you,that you should rewire your
brain and just choose.

Jamie Rosen (56:51):
By I mean the choices we make.
Yeah, but we don't havecapacity to make different
choices.
Sometimes when we're sodepressed, yeah Right, and so
that's when we really need help.
Yeah, yeah.

Chris Nafis (57:03):
And that's the beauty of the spiritual
community is we have each otherto lift each other up.
You know, we can be there forsomeone else who maybe doesn't
have the capacity to do itthemselves, and we can invite
them into a space of worship ora space of the flow groups or
the space of like communityconnection and say, hey, come,
come sing with us.
You know, if you can't sing,that's okay, just sit there and
listen to the rest of us sing,and uh, and we can kind of lift

(57:25):
each other up in that way too.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (57:27):
And always, like you know, I encourage
people to think about likespiral up, spiral down.
Uh, so there is like noperfection of like healthy state
, so it's always likefluctuating, and it's okay to
feel bad sometimes, it's okay tofeel depressed.
It's just knowing that you know, oh, you're aware enough, like

(57:50):
you know, uh, how your body andhow your emotion feels like, and
then you know you have enoughtools and skills, uh, to you
know, to do the spiral up.
So spiral up doesn't like youknow this or you know it's it
needs.
It takes time, it takes practice, but just knowing that and have

(58:11):
some, you know good tools andskills here and there, and also
you know, if you have, like, youknow, uh, supporting um people,
supporting community, uh,that's, that's enough.
I mean, you know enough, goodenough, good enough, practice,
good enough, self-care, goodenough?

(58:32):
Uh, you know feeling, but weall say that and the reality is
we don't live in a world wheregood enough is okay, know
feeling, but we all say that,and the reality is we don't live
in a world where good enough isokay, like you're supposed to
be happy.

Jamie Rosen (58:41):
Happy is a bad word , right, because that's not life
.
It is a spiral like.
I can be happy and sad at thesame time, and I can feel both
emotions 1000 times all day long, and I can be happy and angry,
and so I think we have to likeyeah, so try not to be perfect.
Try not to be, like you know,social media perfect all the

(59:02):
time yeah.

Chris Nafis (59:03):
Yeah, well, that's the other part of this.
is like social media really putsthis even, I mean even in like
the art stuff, right?
Like, uh, cause we're no longerjust trying to be, you know,
like a fun.
You don't just have to be agood singer in your little
cluster of friends You're nowcompeting with like the entire
world.
You know what I mean.
And the best singers in theworld have the most popular
TikToks and everyone else stinks, you know, and there's this way

(59:26):
that that that just furtherdrives us away from it.
But if we can get rid of thatcompetitive edge and if we can
learn to enjoy it for the sakeof itself and not have to be you
don't have to be a influencerto enjoy dancing, right?

Sook Kyoung Kwon (59:41):
really I, I really want to, like you know, a
talk and tell the youngergenerations, like you know,
please rethink about connection.
So the connection that you'remaking through social media uh,
not be good enough for you.
So there's other ways.
Like you know, we're losing alot of like you know, real touch

(01:00:04):
, a lot of you know likeintimate connection, a lot of
like offline relationships, andI know there is like cons and
pros of like, of, like you know,connection through social media
and technology.
And technology brings, like alot of you know, possibilities,

(01:00:26):
the good things, of course, butespecially for the younger
generations.
You know they were exposed tosocial media and technology way
too soon, way too young, andthat kind of blocked them from
having different level ofconnection within nature, within

(01:00:52):
physical touch, physical, youknow being together, and it
became kind of normal you know,that way.
So I think you know this societyand, as grown up as like adult,
you know, as grown up as likeadult, you know we have to, you

(01:01:17):
know, try really hard to breakthat stigma and then, you know,
try to offer alternatives, whichI believe, we believe it's more
genuine way of connection.

Chris Nafis (01:01:32):
Right, which is often less convenient.
But then, if you think about itlike that's, that's how you end
up having all these negativecoping, that's how people end up
addicted to meth right Isbecause it's a convenient way to
escape your problem.
You know it's easy and quick,but eventually it it leads you
into more destructive patterns.
I think social media is kind ofmaybe not to that extent it's
all like getting developing ameth habit and you know, being

(01:01:54):
too on, you know Snapchat orwhatever too much isn't the same
thing, but it is kind ofsimilar where you go for like
the cheap fix of like thisconnection and you, you know,
maybe harder to like, actuallyget together.

Jamie Rosen (01:02:06):
I mean, I read an article the other day that said
that social media creates theisolation that has increased the
suicide rate.
So it's like thinking socialmedia is a substitute, right,
and then people, that's not realinteraction, right.

(01:02:26):
There's no honesty, there's novulnerability, there's no, it's
like makes you feel bad, right,and then it's become so such a
large thing and that's somepeople's only way of interacting
and that it's like their mentalhealth is so bad that it
results in suicide.
And those are the highestnumbers of suicide rate.

(01:02:49):
Nights are people who actuallyare suffering from isolation,
but it's been because of socialmedia.
Yeah, yeah, it's not just awarning.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:02:56):
It but it's been because of social media.
Yeah, yeah, it's not just awarning, it's scientific
research that shows you know howit affects our daily life, and
you know relationships and theway that we think and we feel.
So I think, yeah, thisgeneration we really have to,

(01:03:16):
you know, pay more attention to.
You know how to provide them,uh, different experiences.

Jamie Rosen (01:03:22):
Yeah, yeah I mean, we all know when we force
ourselves, like you said,sometimes it's hard.
Yeah, I don't want to go tothat thing.
And you go and you're like, ohmy god, I feel so much better
right and it's because you'reconnecting with human live
beings which releases oxytocinand dopamine, which is very hard
to release on your own in manycircumstances.

(01:03:45):
So, yeah, I'm a church.
I've been to your church.

Chris Nafis (01:03:53):
Yeah, like come and connect and come and be in
person and come in and like dothe harder, do the sometimes
slightly harder thing, that's alittle less convenient.
We almost we're talking aboutdoing even this on zoom and here
we are in person and it's somuch better.

Jamie Rosen (01:04:05):
But when I find, um , chris, what so living water
allows, like as a stranger whowalks in there, whether it be
for Thanksgiving or for group orjust coming by on a Sunday, it
feels like a very open place towalk into and and a safe place
to walk into.

(01:04:25):
So so obviously you're doing alot of things right, but I think
a lot of spiritual places donot feel that way.

Chris Nafis (01:04:32):
Yeah.

Jamie Rosen (01:04:33):
And I think that is a travesty, because I do think
and I've had this conversationmany times with my children that
spiritual feeling safe, to bespiritual to whatever level you
want to be spiritual within aplace where other people are
being spiritual, is one of thequickest places to regulate your
nervous system and to feel seen, supported, heard and safe

(01:04:58):
system right and to feel seen,supported, heard and safe.
And so it's a real shame thatthat we I know we talk about
growing this work all the time,like how do we get spiritual
congregations to really embracethis so that they're all
thinking about?
what what could happen?

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:05:13):
it's.
It's not easy, you know.
Yeah, part of the churchcommunity.
You know myself, like I often,you know, offer, you know, my
program to my community group.

(01:05:40):
Like you know, last three, fouryears you know we try to train
new facilitators from so theycan kind of, you know, spread
out, you know, into the wholecommunity and, you know, bring
this work into their community.
That's our hope but it's noteasy.
Community, that's our hope butit's not easy.

(01:06:03):
You know I see two challengesthere, you know, just limiting
to religious congregations.
First is the authority matter.
So oftentimes, so oftentimes,pastors and spiritual leaders
have all those authority toteach, to train, to offer

(01:06:24):
programs, and you know othermembers are more, like, you know
, humble, to become a leader andoffer programs rather than just
like supporting.
And also the other challenges Isee is like one, it's not easy

(01:06:46):
to become a facilitator and youknow, to lead such a group.
But also you know there is lackof belief that an art can help.

Chris Nafis (01:06:56):
Right.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:06:56):
So we have to kind of like you know, not
fighting, but you know there islack of belief that an art can
help right.
So we have to kind of like youknow, uh, not fighting, but you
know work through that.
Two different.
You know challenges withincongregation also and, um,
through counseling center.
Uh, lm Counseling Center isalso non-profit but Christian

(01:07:17):
faith-based organization and wetry to offer this type of
program, like flow group orother means, other training
classes to church communities.
So I did some retreat programsfor, like you know, I did some
retreat programs for, like youknow, church members.

(01:07:38):
But when we're trying to reachout to the leaders of the
congregations, you know they'remore like you know oh, that's
nice.
Is it like biblical?

Chris Nafis (01:07:49):
Right right.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:07:50):
So there is still like a high wall to climb.
So, Chris, that's your job.

Chris Nafis (01:07:58):
It is, I know, and I kind of laugh, but I really do
think that that's kind of whatI've been wrestling with, and
not just me.
Like I think we've hadconversations together about
this how do we share this Causelike I said, it's like it's
right there.
It's like it's right there forchurch communities, for faith
communities of different sorts.
How do we?
How do we kind of share it in aconcise way, not in an hour

(01:08:23):
long podcast that someone has tolisten to in order to kind of
get it, but like how do we getthrough to folks that like this
is actually something that canbe tremendously enriching for a
spiritual community, forindividuals in that community,
can bring healing to people whoare really struggling, and the

(01:08:44):
world is a hard place right now.
I think even people who you knowour church is a lot of folks
that are on the street and likereally, really struggling in
like severe crisis all the time.
But I think even even sort ofmiddle-class people, like life
is just hard right now In a lotof ways.
There's a lot of stress,there's a lot of forces that
pull us into isolation, thatkind of pull us out of our
bodies, and this stuff can be sogood and healing.
We have to find a way to do it.
We're going to, we're going todo it and we're going to figure

(01:09:06):
out a way to share this.
Whether it's we need to writeabout it, we need to.
You know, do some more podcasts, not just mine, but, like you
know, we're working on it and ifthere's any funders out there,
lily decided not to fund it, butwe will find someone who's
going to help us off the ground.
We're committed.

Jamie Rosen (01:09:25):
I'm wondering, like I think there's this so there's
this big trauma responsivemovement or trauma informed
movement for all enterprisesright now?
Yeah, and I think that there'sthis notion that spirituality
itself is trauma informed, justlike there's that same notion in
restorative justice.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:09:45):
Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Rosen (01:09:46):
Like people assume, because it's restorative
justice.
It's trauma informed andspirituality.
Why wouldn't it be traumainformed?
We're here to help people,we're here to expose them to.
But I think that's where theignorance is of what is trauma
and how does it affect ourspirituality and how do we show
up.
But also, people don't want tofocus on trauma.

(01:10:07):
So then you're like so it'slike this resilience building,
like how do we couch it?
With leaders, so that we'reactually can catch their
attention.

Chris Nafis (01:10:17):
Well, well, it's one of those things where
everybody wants to talk abouttrauma and stuff, but they all
want to talk about it in otherpeople.
That right deal with it inthemselves or kind?
of I know somebody yeah, that,like we all, we all carry it and
it is.
It's like it's not just like ayou have trauma or you don't.
I think there is, like thereare severe forms of, you know,
ptsd and stuff that's a littledifferent than like your

(01:10:39):
everyday.
But, like, we've allexperienced hardship, we've all
had people that have bullied usor marginalized us in different
ways.
We all have, you know, thesethings that it's either been too
long right, or or too intense,or you know too much too fast.
We all have those things thatwe carry with us.
And even if we don't this isthe other thing that I've been

(01:10:59):
trying to tell folks like, evenif we don't, having a strong
central nervous system that islike well adapted and having
these practices in place canmake us more resilient in case
we do face the trauma.

Jamie Rosen (01:11:11):
Well, that's the idea, with resilience building
and doing this work.

Sook Kyoung Kwon (01:11:15):
Yeah, there's always a little better version
of you, sure Always.

Chris Nafis (01:11:22):
Well, I feel like we always can talk forever.
I think we may have even gonepast Jamie's time.
Sorry, jamie, but we shouldwrap this up.
We'll get you guys backsometime.
And thank you again so much.
Oh, it was so fun and all theseyears of work.
We really appreciate you guysand, yeah, glad to have the
connection and so good to behere in person with you.
Any final final words.

Jamie Rosen (01:11:49):
No, I'm just grateful for this opportunity
and grateful for the work you doand grateful for the desire for
us all to spread the work, likeit's not the word, it's the
work.
Not the word, it's the work.
That way, yeah, that's not theword, it's the work yes, yes,
all right, all right.

Chris Nafis (01:12:01):
Well for those listening.
Thank you for tuning in and, uh, we will see you later.
Thank you.