November 16, 2023 • 36 mins
In this episode, our host Anika Zubair chats with Maranda Dziekonski, Senior VP of Customer Success at Datasembly about the importance of viewing customer success as a revenue generator rather than a cost center.
The field of customer success (CS) has been through a whirlwind of changes this year due to the global economy. As we near the end of 2023 and start planning for 2024, sustainability and revenue have become top priorities for every CS department. But why is revenue such a vital piece of the CS puzzle? And how can CSMs and CS leaders enhance their skills to adapt to the evolving market?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello everyone, I'm your host Anika Bert and
welcome back to the nextepisode of the Customer Success
Channel podcast, brought to youby Plan Hat , the Modern
Customer platform. This podcastis created for anyone working
in or interested in thecustomer success field. On this
podcast, we will speak toleaders in the industry about
their experiences and theirdefinitions of customer success
(00:27):
and get their advice and bestpractices on how to run ACS
organization. Today's guest isno other than Miranda Koski who
needs no introduction. She's aCSS executive leader and a
fractional COO. She has wonnumerous awards including
winning Top 25 css Influencer,three years running. Miranda
(00:49):
has spent her career incustomer success in various
roles from head of Customersuccess, VP of Customer Success
to chief customer Officer atcompanies like Lending Club .
Hello Sign swiftly. And she iscurrently SVP of Customer
Success at Data Assembly. She'sa startup junkie and is super
passionate about taking boththe team and the company to the
(01:09):
next level. She has over 20years of experience working
both in building world-classoperations and extensive
experience in building andscaling teams in early and
mid-stage startups. And todaywe are going to chat to her
about the importance of revenuein customer success and how
focusing on css being a revenuecenter rather than a cost
center will ultimately helpyour business thrive in tough
(01:30):
times. Welcome Miranda to thepodcast. There are probably
very few people out there thatare listening that don't know
who you are. But before we jumpinto today's topic, can you
please tell our listeners alittle bit more about yourself,
how you started in customersuccess, where you are now,
just give us a little bit of anintro to you. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I'm
Miranda Koski . I am the SeniorVice President of Customer
Success at a company named DataAssembly. I am just wrapping up
I think my eighth week there.
Uh, so still new. Super
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Exciting though.
New, new role. Very
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Exciting. I love the team and love what we're doing.
And there's still, even thoughthey're series B, there's still
like a lot of building, so I'mhaving a great time. But what
brought me here, so I've beendoing this type of work now for
24, 25 years and started outearly in my career managing a
very large book of business fornine years for a company in
(02:31):
Michigan and then relocated toSilicon Valley, California. For
those that don't know, and I'vebeen here for 13, 14 years on
my ninth startup . I've donepretty much every role in an
organization that you can thinkof .
Speaker 2 (02:48):
that is
startup life.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah. With the exception of product and
engineering. I haven't touchedproduct and engineering, but I
call myself a retired humanresource leader. I've also
owned sales, marketing, BizOps,finance, all the things. I even
own it for a little bit. Alittle bit meaning like a year.
Oh ,
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Nice. Didn't know that one, but you seemed to
cover it all..
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, like people would come to me and say their
power cord wasn't working and Iwould tell them, yes, go buy a
power cord or computer's notworking . And I would say, did
you reboot ?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yes . Yes. This is like it 1 0 1
Speaker 3 (03:25):
it 1 0 1 ,
exactly. But yeah, so really
happy to be here today todiscuss where my heart lies,
which is within customersuccess.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I love that. You mentioned the retired HR part
in customer success. I thinkthat's gonna play a big part in
in today's conversation, butyou have held a number of
roles, number of differentorganization. What continues to
inspire you to continue to workin customer success or the
startup world? As you've said,you've been at a number of
them. Well,
Speaker 3 (03:54):
First I love building. You will find me
often late at night writingprocesses, thinking about
frameworks. It's fun for me. Ilove taking things that may
have a lot of gray matter areaand defining them. And in
startups there's no shortage ofthat. Not at
Speaker 2 (04:12):
All. , not
Speaker 3 (04:13):
At all . But
what really inspires me and
keeps me rolling and keeps mecoming back again and again to
startups is the career growthof folks around me. Startups is
they're stressful, they'rehard, but they're also a place
where if you're hungry and notafraid to get your hands dirty
(04:34):
and have like a strong learningmindset, you can really like
grow a significant amount instartups in the startup world.
That's really what keeps memotivated. Watching folks go
from I see to directors and VPsor move from sales to customer
(04:55):
success or customer success tomarketing or product or
engineering. At swiftly where Iwas at for four years, I had
multiple team members move outof the customer success org to,
I mean we had an engineer, wehave a product, we have
somebody who moved tomarketing, like watching them
(05:15):
just grow and develop theirskillsets and move in the
organization. That's likereally rewarding to see.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Definitely. And I think you and I have that in
common by the way. I am on mysixth startup and I feel the
same passion as you were justsaying, everything you were
saying. I know the listenerscan't see, but I was nodding my
head and smiling 'cause Itotally agree that the passion
and the drive that you need tobring into a startup is a lot
and it can be a lot ofoverwhelming moments , but
(05:44):
there's a huge amount of careertrajectory success for
yourself, for your team memberslike you mentioned. And I think
that really motivates andinspires a lot of people. And I
think you and I have that incommon where it's like it has
influenced your growth into theroles that you've mentioned
already and into the careerdirectory that you've seen,
which is really exciting. Ithink being at startups is
(06:05):
great, but I also know thatthis year, especially in SaaS
and in tech, it's a little bittough. I think sustainability
and revenue are on everyleader's mind as we finish off
2023 and as we kind of startplanning for 2024, I have
always been revenue minded. Ithink that that's what is a
part of customer success. Butsome teams don't do that. They
(06:25):
don't have revenue targets.
What is your take on revenueand customer success? Where do
you feel like it fits in? Good
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Question. So if you would've asked me this question
five years ago, I would'vesaid, no, keep customer success
pure. They shouldn't touchrevenue, they shouldn't own a
number. My mind has beenevolving and changing. Mm . So
I think because of where we arewith the current economy, CSS
(06:55):
has to get used to owning anumber. If not owning a number,
being able to prove how theydirectly impact revenue.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Definitely I couldn't agree more
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Customer success if they're doing customer success
correctly, the renewal orupsell event. Now cross-sell is
different in my mind, but therenewal or upsell event should
just be another day in the lifeof, right? Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It shouldn't be something that's like sticking
out that you have to worktowards. It should be naturally
occurring if you are obviouslyfollowing certain path towards
the success of your client.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Exactly, exactly.
And that's why I really preachthe value cycle a lot. Mm-Hmm .
People in my teams or people informer teams have heard me talk
a lot about the value cycle,right? So you surface the
problem statement, you partnerwith your customer to figure
out how are we gonna solvethese problems? You create a
plan, work the plan, deliver onthat plan. So hopefully you're
(07:51):
delivering on value and thenyou report, which again another
controversial subject, but Iprefer to do that through an
executive business reviewreport out. And then you're
collecting new goals, surfacingnew problem statements, problem
statements that maybe thecustomer knows exist. And then
also uncovering and surfacingproblem statements that the
(08:13):
customer may not know exist. Ifyou create a flywheel like
this, what naturally happens isone, the customer starts
viewing you as a partner andnot a vendor. Two, you're gonna
surface problem statements thatthe current investment that
they've already made can besolved for with you know, your
current product, but alsoexpansion opportunities with
(08:35):
that type of flywheel. It's notlike a transaction. You're not
coming in to say, give me moremoney. You're partnering with
them to figure out how do wesolve more problems? How do we
create more efficiencies? Howdo we create more revenue?
Whatever, whatever the ROI oroutcome is, how do we do more
of that? How do we do more ofthat in more areas of your
(08:57):
organization using you know,data in a different way,
whatever it may be. How do youdo more of that? And then
again, it's less of atransaction and more of just
part of the lifecycle, part ofthe relationship.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Definitely. I love that you just said flywheel or
circular because I think we getvery stuck into revenue being
linear and being almost likeyou gotta reach this one
endpoint of revenue growth. Butlike you said, it is something
that happens through value overtime and it happens again and
again, which is the flywheel orthe circle that you spoke to
(09:32):
earlier. But coming back toyour earlier point around five
years ago you mentioned thatmaybe customer success stays so
pure doesn't have a revenuenumber or a target. I think
that that's interesting 'causeI've always had a revenue
target, so I'm on the otherside of things. But a lot of
other people are in the sameshoes that you've been in where
they've had non-revenue targetsand it's kind of tough for them
(09:53):
to rethink this becausecustomer success or anything in
the customer experience,customer support has been seen
as a cost center and not as arevenue generator. Why do you
think now revenue is socritical to be a part of the
CSS function? Well,
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So five years might not be the right number. It
might be more like 10 yearsbecause I started coming around
to this probably a littlequicker than others. Look as
somebody who's worked closelywith CFOs whose own finance,
when stuff hits the fan andwe're looking at budgets where
(10:30):
to cut budgets, the teams thatget cut first are the ones that
are cost centers and notdriving revenue. So just from
that perspective, from an HRperspective, from a finance
perspective, this is theeconomy we're in now. This is
the world we're in. So it'simportant that um, leaders are,
(10:50):
if they don't directly own anumber, they're figuring out
how to tie what their team doesevery day to revenue outcomes.
Definitely. That is so missioncritical for the role, the
function and actually thefuture of css. So what caused
me to come around just lookingholistically at the customer
(11:13):
relationship and thinking aboutthe customer experience. I
might get hate mail about this,I might not, but put on your
customer hat for a momentfolks, you're a customer likely
of many tools. You may or maynot have ACSM in some of those
tools. You work with thoseindividuals to hopefully help
you, you know, have successwith the investment you've
(11:36):
made. Do you really wantanother random person swooping
in at the renewal time andasking you for money,
it's like . I meanthink about that. Think about
the experience. Definitely . Ithink that definitely that's
really when we think about it,yes, the whole premise of keep
customer success pure, theyshould be focused on ROI and
(12:00):
outcomes. Yes, I agree withthat. However, I also think
there has to be a comfort levelwith them thinking through the
commercial side of things aswell. Now I will give a little
caveat. I have and a coupletimes put a renewals manager in
place. Mm-Hmmbecause as the renewals are
tough Yeah. They may requireRFPs or tough negotiations.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Definitely. Yeah. I just had a conversation around
this where it totally dependson your renewal cycle. Do you
have a procurement process thatyou have to undergo? Is there
multiple stakeholders that haveto be re-added into the renewal
process? If it's that kind ofway, then yes, you definitely
need someone with a differentskillset to come in and almost
act as your partner in crime tohelp execute on that. But like
(12:46):
you were saying, a hundredpercent , you're still
affecting that revenue outcome,which I love that wording by
the way. And I think that if aCSS leader is not using revenue
targets right now or is notheld accountable, revenue
outcomes is a great place tostart. Can you expand on it?
Can you say like if you hadrevenue outcomes before, what
(13:07):
are some KPIs that they shouldbe tracking or how should they
make sure that their CFO knowsthat they are revenue based
even if they don't have directrevenue targets?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, I'll go way, way, way back. So in the way,
way back machine, one of thethings I did to prove out
customer success at an earlycompany is I ran an AB test.
MM-Hmm . So I hada very similar portfolio that I
was monitoring, stickiness,renewal and growth and had one
managed by the , a similarportfolio managed by a customer
(13:39):
success manager versus notbeing managed. And the
portfolio that was managed by acustomer success manager
achieved something like 50%greater upsell. Mm-Hmm
. Wow. And likethe churn on it went, you know,
on the non-managed was like 20%annualized versus I think it
(14:00):
was like five under 5%. Uh,with the CSM, if you have the
luxury to do that, that is oneway to prove if you run an AB
test over a certain amount oftime, I had that luxury.
Thankfully. Yeah . Noteverybody does. Quite frankly.
Tying things to KPIs, as yousaid, is really important. The
(14:21):
KPIs that I tie my teams to aregross dollar renewal and net
retention. And here's thething, just saying that your
team owns gross dollar renewaland net retention isn't enough.
Mm-Hmm . So make surecompensation model follows, but
also make sure you're notsetting up emotion that causes
(14:45):
cannibalization or any kind ofpolitics internally. I'll
expand on this and this iswhere revenue outcomes comes to
play. Gross dollar renewal.
Yes. CSMs, you are responsiblein my orgs for your individual
gross dollar renewal. So if youhave a hundred dollars up for
renewal, how many of thosedollars renewed? Yep . Think
(15:06):
about your levers that you haveavailable to you to drive the
right revenue outcomes. Right.
And this isn't about selling,this is about you partnering
with your customers to makesure they are successful within
the product. It is worth notingthat I do work heavily in the B
two B enterprise motion. Sowe're usually talking hundreds
of thousands of dollars thatthe contracts that my teams
(15:28):
work with. So that is thingone. Thing two, net retention.
So I have usually a team goalon net retention. Interesting.
And the reason why I do a teamgoal is sometimes we will have
an upsell motion that maybe isparticularly sticky, like not
(15:51):
sticky in a good way. Like it'skind of like, ooh , this could
be really messy or needs extra,you know, negotiation skills.
What I don't want to havehappen is CSMs be so focused on
the dollars that they're notfocusing on what's happening or
what the right thing is fortheir customers. So when you do
(16:12):
a team-based net retentiongoal, everybody wins as long as
the customer is winning and theteam is winning as a whole.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
That makes sense.
Yeah, of course. I , I don't
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Know if I answered your question, but that is
revenue outcomes to me.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
No , definitely you already did. 'cause it's not
just owning the number, it'sthe activities Correct. That
contribute to that number,which I think a lot of people
get intimidated when they'retold, Hey, you have to own NRR
or GRR , any of these revenuenumbers if they've never owned
it before. But it's not justowning the number , it's what
have you contributed to doingday by day, week by week ,
(16:49):
month by month, et cetera , tohelp move the needle forward on
those numbers. Which is I thinka great place to start. You
don't have to own the number,you can just own activities
that contribute to the number,which is a great place to
start. But I'd love to hearyour input on if someone is
currently in a company orrunning a customer success team
that's seen as a cost center,what are some of the first
(17:12):
steps or tips or something thatsomeone can do to shift the
mindset towards becoming arevenue center?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Well first meet with your CFO or your finance leader
to figure out how they're doingthe finances, understand what
makes you a cost center versusyou know, somebody that is
driving revenue. So I, Iwouldn't wanna give advice just
a blanket advice and say do a,B, C, X, Y, Z until the
individuals understand that.
(17:40):
Then ask the question, whatwould it take here internally
for my team to be viewed as orclassified as someone who maybe
isn't under cogs, which is costof goods sold and somebody
who's more on the revenue side.
Right. So what would that takegenerally it , it goes back to
(18:03):
sh having your team own likethe renewal and the upsell.
It's usually that simple infinance world, understanding
what that really means for yourcustomers and your team is
crucial. I wouldn't urge peoplejust to go out and start doing
things willy-nilly, understandwhy it is the way it is now,
(18:25):
what would happen if we changedit? Understand what would that
do to the customer experience,what does that do to the CSS
motion? What skill sets aremissing within your team to be
able to handle renewals? Isthis even necessary? Maybe it's
okay that you're a cog but theteam still views you as
somebody that supports revenueand you can make that a very
(18:48):
solid case. Like really dig in,like put on your curious hat,
curious George hat and go outand like pick up all the rocks,
peel back all the layers of theonion and understand.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Definitely. And I love that you've already
mentioned some of thesecritical things like speaking
to your CFO, but yes, customersuccess is mostly seen under
cost of goods sold. Like it isa typical thing in most SaaS
businesses. Hence why we end upin the cost center pile of
things, but also understand abusiness's profit and loss
(19:20):
margins too. Because that willalso really help you understand
where you fall, how much yourcustomer success managers are
costing versus how much revenuethey're bringing in. And all
this as a leader I wouldpersonally say is just good
knowledge to have. It can onlyhelp you, it doesn't hurt.
Obviously there's a lot ofthings to shift that mindset,
but like you said, juststarting with understanding
(19:42):
those basics can really helpyou propel your whole mindset
and your whole framework andyour whole ownership of
renewals totally can changewhen you decide to start
looking in and being curious,like you said,
Speaker 3 (19:55):
And honestly I know this is a topic probably for a
different day, but this is oneof the things that make a VP
different than ACO.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah , I agree .
Speaker 3 (20:06):
VPs own a function, they own their department and
in their department there couldbe multiple teams in there, but
somebody that's operating atc-level , they own the
business. Yeah. They understandwhat's going on in the business
and what the levers are and howall the little pieces come
together and play together. Um,they understand what the
(20:27):
margins are, they understandwhat the book of business that
their CSMs manage, what thatratio needs to be. Mm-Hmm
in order for itto be financially viable in
viable
Speaker 2 (20:38):
For the business.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Exactly. Yeah , exactly. For
Speaker 2 (20:40):
We could do another whole podcast on like the
difference between being like alike senior customer success
leader and then a trueexecutive owning, like you
said, being a part of thebusiness growth and not just
the necessarily the departmentgrowth. Exactly. But we're
gonna save that for anotherday. Let's come back to the
revenue topic and talkabout how the world of customer
success has really changed thisyear because of the
(21:03):
macroeconomics of the world. Wealready talked about how CSS
being focused on revenue is ahuge result of this change and
what's happening right now. Butwhat does that mean for the
CSM? I'm just thinking beforeeveryone was like a do it all ,
cover everything. Then we gotsuper specific of, you know,
you need a technical CSM or youneed like, you know, an
implementation manager versusACSM . But what kind of skills
(21:27):
do you think are important forbeing a successful CSM going
into 2024 knowing that thisrevenue shift is so important
right now?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Well, I will tell you what I will be looking for
when I hire, I'm looking forsomebody who is entrepreneurial
in nature. So they're taking alook at their book of business
and they're not just saying,what do I need today from to do
today for my customers? They'relooking at it and they're
looking three months out, sixmonths out, however many months
out to figure out what needs tobe true for this renewal to
(21:59):
happen, what needs to be truefor growth to happen. They're
dissecting their book ofbusiness and looking at green
space like where are theobvious growth opportunities,
where pitfalls and risks thatwe should be aware of as we're
going down this path. They'realso taking a look at contracts
(22:20):
and understanding howcontracting works at their
organization because knowingthat can change how you
interact and who you interactwith and who you know you need
to interact with, right? Youmight be interacting with a
leader of one department, butif the budget you know, lies
within another department, youneed to interact with them as
(22:41):
well. And those are thingsthat, you know, I would expect
my my CSMs to know and learn asthey're managing their book of
business. Like it's their owncompany.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Definitely. I always say that to my CSMs, I'm like,
you are the CEO of your book ofbusiness. So what you do will
directly affect the growth andyou know, acceleration of your
business but will also affectpossible losses in your
business. And you have to treatit like that in order to truly
be successful in your role.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So while I'm notcoming right out and saying
learn how to negotiatecontracts because I don't know
if that's necessary at theirorganization, what I am saying
is switch your thinking and ifyou are ACSM right now
listening to this and you'resitting there waiting for your
customer to reach out to you,stop, stop doing that. I hope
(23:31):
you're not
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Doing that, but hopefully you're doing
something else. But if you are,please stop.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah , it happens.
It happens more than you know,it really does. And that's ,
um, I'm not poo-pooing, it'sjust the way of what it has
been. But stop doing that. Openup your book of business right
now and think how can I beviewed as a better partner to
my customers? What can I do?
What are actions I can takeright now to help them realize
(23:59):
more value on their investmentagain and again and again.
Right? Open up your eyes andthink about it a different way
instead of looking at what arethe fires I need to put out
right now? Think about wherecan we provide more value. One
of the things that we're seeingin this economy is things that
are not mission critical arebeing cut. You do not want to
(24:22):
fall into that. If you have acustomer that cuts you, you
wanna be able to tell the storyof all of the things you did to
prove out value, to proactivelyengage them, to think through
different use cases to reducesingle points of failure,
whatever it may be in yourorganization. You wanna be able
(24:42):
to show all the playbooks youused, all the levers you
pulled. So if your customer issomebody that has to cut your
company, you have the story andthe narrative of everything you
did to make sure that didn'thappen.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Definitely. I couldn't agree more. And you
just said you don't wanna bethat person that gets cut. And
that is happening obviouslyacross the entire SaaS and tech
world. Everyone's evaluatingbudget, really looking at what
they wanna spend on andunfortunately that's also
happened in the customersuccess hiring landscape as
well. There are a lot of peoplethat fell into that cost center
(25:17):
side of things in a business.
And like you said, the easiestthing to start cutting is
things that don't make revenue,which means there are a lot of
people looking for work rightnow. And with the CSS landscape
changing and ACSM possiblylooking for a job today towards
a more revenue centered CSSfunction, what do you think
they should be focusing on? I'm, I'm gonna ask you with the HR
(25:39):
hat on right now, what do youthink they should be looking
for? What do you think theyshould be presenting when
people are looking for roles inas ACSM right now?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Look , I, I know it's hard out there, right? It
is very hard out there rightnow. So a few things, if I'm
gonna put my HR hat on, pretendI'm looking through resumes. If
you are somebody who's neverowned revenue and you're
struggling to get a role, one,be open to taking different
roles within an organizationthat would give you revenue
(26:09):
exposure. Whether that's, youknow, taking on an account
management role because that'snot a big leap. You can go from
being ACSM to an accountmanager or an AE role. Be open
to that to get that experienceand then you can come back and
be that enterprise CSM that hashad, you know, has seen both
(26:29):
sides of the coin. So that'sthing one. Thing two, if you're
like, yeah, no way in hellMiranda, that's never gonna
happen, I'm not gonna do that.
Fine. Figure out ways that youcan prove you have the chops to
hang. So whether that'screating a portfolio, creating
content, whatever it may be,figure out your transferable
(26:50):
skills and how you're gonnatell that story on a resume.
You have, I think thestatistics that I've quoted
before, again and again as youhave seven to 10 seconds. Yeah
,
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Seven I think, I think I've heard seven.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Seven, yeah. Seven seconds. Let's call it seven to
wow the recruiter that isscreening your resume. So
figure out your outcomelanguage on your resume
outcomes that you drove. Don'tjust put, I held EBRs . Great.
Tell me about the outcomes. Iconducted EBRs for top 20
(27:24):
customers and drove 20% growthin revenue. Love that. Bam.
That's a resume. I would belike, oh, I wanna talk to that
individual. So think about howyou're positioning yourself and
also, I hate to say this, butLinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn.
It's so powerful not only fornetworking, but when I am
looking at candidate resumes, Ialso open up their LinkedIns. I
(27:48):
wanna see do things match, youknow, is there any content that
has been put out? Like I lookat all of it, I look at the
holistic picture because I'm abig believer we bring our whole
selves to work. So I like tosee the whole self. So
put yourself out
Speaker 2 (28:04):
There. Definitely.
And coming back to that resumepiece, I think it's so critical
to highlight key metrics, butalmost like, like you said, tie
it back to revenue. Even if youdidn't have a revenue target or
own a revenue target, youcontributed to revenue in some
way, shape or form in yourprevious roles. So having that
either highlighted in that waythat you just stated, Miranda,
(28:25):
or I've seen a great resumethat on the top, instead of
doing like a summary or aprofile, they just listed all
their EV targets they've everhit. And I was like blown away.
'cause seven seconds I saw thetop of that resume, I was like,
right, I need to speak to thisperson. Yeah. 'cause they
summarized it for me so well inthe top and then they went into
detail later on. But I thinkit's so amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I love that idea.
Your resume is yours. You don'thave to stick to the old
format, right? Like
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Not at all. I would say please don't , like
please excite me. Exactly .
Like please don't
Speaker 3 (28:56):
. I know
especially somebody that had to
sift, you know, I had posted ajob about a month and a half
ago and it blew up. Like I hadlike a thousand applicants
within a few hours and I had toshut it down. Oh
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Gosh. And the market today. It was just crazy
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Oof . And then I had to sit and sift through all
those resumes and I feltpersonally obligated because
you know, it was, I posted itfrom my LinkedIn so I went
resume by resume and there werea handful that really stood out
and they did things just likeyou said.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, it's , you have to really stick out. You
have to be different in thismarket and especially in a
shifting market that is gonnabe revenue focused . You need
to change your narrative, yourstory in whether you own that
number or not. You need to tella really strong story between
how customer success affectsrevenue and coming into that, I
(29:45):
think CSMs and CS leadersreally have to upscale
themselves to prepare for thischange in market and what 2024
is gonna bring us. Because ifyou asked me at the end of 2022
or in the middle of 2022, Iwouldn't have said what we're
going through in 23 was gonnahappen. But hey here we are
constantly changing. I feellike since the pandemic, it's
year after year, a differentlevel of cs. But how do you
(30:07):
think CSMs or CSS leaders canreally upskill themselves to
prepare for the changing ofmarket into 2024 and and into
the future of css? Oh,
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I feel like I still have so much whiplash from
everything that has gone onthis past year. I haven't even
started thinking about 2024,which is a terrible, terrible
answer. but
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Honest. But
,
Speaker 3 (30:29):
I a hundred percent honest. I need to, I need to
sit down and really think about2024 just, you know, for my
team but also the industry. IfI think of what's going on
right now, I think 2024 will beconsolidation. So I said this
probably March the first timeon a podcast that this fall in
(30:53):
winter, we're gonna see a lotof startups that are, they're
gonna run outta money. Just tobe quite frank, the funding is
still pretty dry. There's moneyout there to be invested, but
investors are being extracareful. The unit economics
that they're looking for andthe investments that they're
willing to make, it's changed.
It's no longer growth at allcosts . CSS is going to have to
(31:16):
figure out how to tiethemselves to revenue outcomes,
right? I imagine some com mostcompanies are gonna start
seeing their growth pick up,but there's gonna be huge
hesitance around bringing inmore resources because of the
funding, the nature of funding.
So with all of those facts, youknow, being true for 2024
(31:37):
mm-hmm . Where I would urge CSSleaders to really focus on is
what tools and technologies areout there that are going to
help make your CSS team moreefficient, improve your
customer experience, make it ano-brainer. So when the renewal
does come up, your customersare like, yes, I have to
continue to work with them, butreally hone in and leverage.
(32:00):
Like there's some amazing toolsand technologies out there.
Finance is more likely to giveyou money to buy a tool than
they will be to hire a person.
Just remember that. So if Iwere to give anyone advice,
it's right now act like youcan't hire in 2024 when you're
planning, what would you dodifferently?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I think you hit the nail on the head with the, what
we knew as growth at all costshas now what I think will bring
sustainability at all costsinto 2024. And I think we have
to think of revenue andsustainability in customer
success and how do we do that?
Being mindful of cashflow, likeyou just said. And I think that
that's gonna be the biggestchallenge and I'm glad you
(32:44):
brought it up. 'cause I thinkthat tools and processes and
efficiency is really gonnaunlock the successful customer
success teams over the onesthat maybe fail or flop or
businesses close . That'llreally set you apart. But we
can keep talking all day,Miranda, about this topic and
every other topic in customersuccess. But I wanna wrap up
(33:05):
with our quick fire questions.
So are you ready to try toanswer the next few questions
in one sentence or less?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
God, it's so hard for me. I'm so loquacious, but
yeah, let's do it..
Speaker 2 (33:15):
It's okay. You're not the only person that I've
challenged and has not made itthrough this, but let's try.
The first question I have foryou is, what do you think is
next for the customer successindustry?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I think we're gonna see AI become more front and
center in customer success, andI'll just keep it to that short
sentence. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Next question is, which SaaS product can you not
live without as a CSSprofessional?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Well, because I'm a leader of a team, I'm gonna say
lattice, it helps keepeverything organized with my
team. So
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Nice. I love Lattice. Next question is, what
is your favorite CSS learningresource? My
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Favorite CSS learning resource. Um , well,
honestly it's podcast andwebinars like this. I don't
have one in general, but I , Ilove catching what's going on
in podcast and hearing thethoughts from all of the, the
folks in the community.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Amazing. And my final question is, who is
inspiring you and whom do youthink we should next have as
our podcast guest?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Kristen Hare is doing some amazing work. If you
haven't spoken with her, sheshould be on your list. Jay
Nathan, I follow hisnewsletter. Um, those are two
immediately. Like Jay Nathan isa good, he does a good job of
talking about business, notjust customer success. And I
think that's important.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I love that about everything he shares. It's
always tied back to thebusiness, unique economics of
everything. Totally.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And I do have one rapid question for you.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Okay. Oh , I've never gotten this, but Miranda
, being a podcast host yourself. I feel like this is natural.
So go on Miranda, ask me aquestion. What's
Speaker 3 (34:48):
The name of your Yorkie that I keep seeing? Oh,
that nobody will see. It'sadorable. But it's a Yorkie,
right?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yes, yes. She's a teacup Yorkie and she's not
here anymore, but her name iszz .
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Oh , so adorable.
Anyway, that was my rapid firequestion. I hit 'em hard, don't
I? Yeah,
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I love it. I love it When she comes back, I'll show
you her. Anyways, Miranda,thank you so much for being on
the show, sharing yourinsights, taking your time. If
anyone has any other questionsor follow up to our
conversation, what's the bestway of getting ahold of you? Uh
,
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Just on LinkedIn.
Very simple.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Amazing. Thank you again and , uh, thanks for your
time. Thank
Speaker 3 (35:23):
You.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Thank you for listening to the Customer
Success Channel podcast today.
We hope you learn something newto take back to your team and
your company. If you foundvalue in our podcast, please
make sure to give us a positivereview and make sure you
subscribe to our channel as werelease new podcasts every
month. Also, if you have anytopics that you would like me
to discuss in the future or youwould like to be a guest on the
(35:46):
podcast, please feel free toreach out. All my contact
details are in the show notes.
Thanks again for listening. Andtune in next time for more on
customer success.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello everyone, I'm your host Anika Bert and
welcome back to the nextepisode of the Customer Success
Channel podcast, brought to youby Plan Hat , the Modern
Customer platform. This podcastis created for anyone working
in or interested in thecustomer success field. On this
podcast, we will speak toleaders in the industry about
their experiences and theirdefinitions of customer success
(00:27):
and get their advice and bestpractices on how to run ACS
organization. Today's guest isno other than Miranda Koski who
needs no introduction. She's aCSS executive leader and a
fractional COO. She has wonnumerous awards including
winning Top 25 css Influencer,three years running. Miranda
(00:49):
has spent her career incustomer success in various
roles from head of Customersuccess, VP of Customer Success
to chief customer Officer atcompanies like Lending Club .
Hello Sign swiftly. And she iscurrently SVP of Customer
Success at Data Assembly. She'sa startup junkie and is super
passionate about taking boththe team and the company to the
(01:09):
next level. She has over 20years of experience working
both in building world-classoperations and extensive
experience in building andscaling teams in early and
mid-stage startups. And todaywe are going to chat to her
about the importance of revenuein customer success and how
focusing on css being a revenuecenter rather than a cost
center will ultimately helpyour business thrive in tough
(01:30):
times. Welcome Miranda to thepodcast. There are probably
very few people out there thatare listening that don't know
who you are. But before we jumpinto today's topic, can you
please tell our listeners alittle bit more about yourself,
how you started in customersuccess, where you are now,
just give us a little bit of anintro to you. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I'm
Miranda Koski . I am the SeniorVice President of Customer
Success at a company named DataAssembly. I am just wrapping up
I think my eighth week there.
Uh, so still new. Super
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Exciting though.
New, new role. Very
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Exciting. I love the team and love what we're doing.
And there's still, even thoughthey're series B, there's still
like a lot of building, so I'mhaving a great time. But what
brought me here, so I've beendoing this type of work now for
24, 25 years and started outearly in my career managing a
very large book of business fornine years for a company in
(02:31):
Michigan and then relocated toSilicon Valley, California. For
those that don't know, and I'vebeen here for 13, 14 years on
my ninth startup . I've donepretty much every role in an
organization that you can thinkof .
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah. With the exception of product and
engineering. I haven't touchedproduct and engineering, but I
call myself a retired humanresource leader. I've also
owned sales, marketing, BizOps,finance, all the things. I even
own it for a little bit. Alittle bit meaning like a year.
Oh ,
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Nice. Didn't know that one, but you seemed to
cover it all.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, like people would come to me and say their
power cord wasn't working and Iwould tell them, yes, go buy a
power cord or computer's notworking . And I would say, did
you reboot
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yes . Yes. This is like it 1 0 1
Speaker 3 (03:25):
happy to be here today todiscuss where my heart lies,
which is within customersuccess.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I love that. You mentioned the retired HR part
in customer success. I thinkthat's gonna play a big part in
in today's conversation, butyou have held a number of
roles, number of differentorganization. What continues to
inspire you to continue to workin customer success or the
startup world? As you've said,you've been at a number of
them. Well,
Speaker 3 (03:54):
First I love building. You will find me
often late at night writingprocesses, thinking about
frameworks. It's fun for me. Ilove taking things that may
have a lot of gray matter areaand defining them. And in
startups there's no shortage ofthat. Not at
Speaker 2 (04:12):
All.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
At all
keeps me rolling and keeps mecoming back again and again to
startups is the career growthof folks around me. Startups is
they're stressful, they'rehard, but they're also a place
where if you're hungry and notafraid to get your hands dirty
(04:34):
and have like a strong learningmindset, you can really like
grow a significant amount instartups in the startup world.
That's really what keeps memotivated. Watching folks go
from I see to directors and VPsor move from sales to customer
(04:55):
success or customer success tomarketing or product or
engineering. At swiftly where Iwas at for four years, I had
multiple team members move outof the customer success org to,
I mean we had an engineer, wehave a product, we have
somebody who moved tomarketing, like watching them
(05:15):
just grow and develop theirskillsets and move in the
organization. That's likereally rewarding to see.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Definitely. And I think you and I have that in
common by the way. I am on mysixth startup and I feel the
same passion as you were justsaying, everything you were
saying. I know the listenerscan't see, but I was nodding my
head and smiling 'cause Itotally agree that the passion
and the drive that you need tobring into a startup is a lot
and it can be a lot ofoverwhelming moments , but
(05:44):
there's a huge amount of careertrajectory success for
yourself, for your team memberslike you mentioned. And I think
that really motivates andinspires a lot of people. And I
think you and I have that incommon where it's like it has
influenced your growth into theroles that you've mentioned
already and into the careerdirectory that you've seen,
which is really exciting. Ithink being at startups is
(06:05):
great, but I also know thatthis year, especially in SaaS
and in tech, it's a little bittough. I think sustainability
and revenue are on everyleader's mind as we finish off
2023 and as we kind of startplanning for 2024, I have
always been revenue minded. Ithink that that's what is a
part of customer success. Butsome teams don't do that. They
(06:25):
don't have revenue targets.
What is your take on revenueand customer success? Where do
you feel like it fits in? Good
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Question. So if you would've asked me this question
five years ago, I would'vesaid, no, keep customer success
pure. They shouldn't touchrevenue, they shouldn't own a
number. My mind has beenevolving and changing. Mm . So
I think because of where we arewith the current economy, CSS
(06:55):
has to get used to owning anumber. If not owning a number,
being able to prove how theydirectly impact revenue.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Definitely I couldn't agree more
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Customer success if they're doing customer success
correctly, the renewal orupsell event. Now cross-sell is
different in my mind, but therenewal or upsell event should
just be another day in the lifeof, right? Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It shouldn't be something that's like sticking
out that you have to worktowards. It should be naturally
occurring if you are obviouslyfollowing certain path towards
the success of your client.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Exactly, exactly.
And that's why I really preachthe value cycle a lot. Mm-Hmm .
People in my teams or people informer teams have heard me talk
a lot about the value cycle,right? So you surface the
problem statement, you partnerwith your customer to figure
out how are we gonna solvethese problems? You create a
plan, work the plan, deliver onthat plan. So hopefully you're
(07:51):
delivering on value and thenyou report, which again another
controversial subject, but Iprefer to do that through an
executive business reviewreport out. And then you're
collecting new goals, surfacingnew problem statements, problem
statements that maybe thecustomer knows exist. And then
also uncovering and surfacingproblem statements that the
(08:13):
customer may not know exist. Ifyou create a flywheel like
this, what naturally happens isone, the customer starts
viewing you as a partner andnot a vendor. Two, you're gonna
surface problem statements thatthe current investment that
they've already made can besolved for with you know, your
current product, but alsoexpansion opportunities with
(08:35):
that type of flywheel. It's notlike a transaction. You're not
coming in to say, give me moremoney. You're partnering with
them to figure out how do wesolve more problems? How do we
create more efficiencies? Howdo we create more revenue?
Whatever, whatever the ROI oroutcome is, how do we do more
of that? How do we do more ofthat in more areas of your
(08:57):
organization using you know,data in a different way,
whatever it may be. How do youdo more of that? And then
again, it's less of atransaction and more of just
part of the lifecycle, part ofthe relationship.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Definitely. I love that you just said flywheel or
circular because I think we getvery stuck into revenue being
linear and being almost likeyou gotta reach this one
endpoint of revenue growth. Butlike you said, it is something
that happens through value overtime and it happens again and
again, which is the flywheel orthe circle that you spoke to
(09:32):
earlier. But coming back toyour earlier point around five
years ago you mentioned thatmaybe customer success stays so
pure doesn't have a revenuenumber or a target. I think
that that's interesting 'causeI've always had a revenue
target, so I'm on the otherside of things. But a lot of
other people are in the sameshoes that you've been in where
they've had non-revenue targetsand it's kind of tough for them
(09:53):
to rethink this becausecustomer success or anything in
the customer experience,customer support has been seen
as a cost center and not as arevenue generator. Why do you
think now revenue is socritical to be a part of the
CSS function? Well,
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So five years might not be the right number. It
might be more like 10 yearsbecause I started coming around
to this probably a littlequicker than others. Look as
somebody who's worked closelywith CFOs whose own finance,
when stuff hits the fan andwe're looking at budgets where
(10:30):
to cut budgets, the teams thatget cut first are the ones that
are cost centers and notdriving revenue. So just from
that perspective, from an HRperspective, from a finance
perspective, this is theeconomy we're in now. This is
the world we're in. So it'simportant that um, leaders are,
(10:50):
if they don't directly own anumber, they're figuring out
how to tie what their team doesevery day to revenue outcomes.
Definitely. That is so missioncritical for the role, the
function and actually thefuture of css. So what caused
me to come around just lookingholistically at the customer
(11:13):
relationship and thinking aboutthe customer experience. I
might get hate mail about this,I might not, but put on your
customer hat for a momentfolks, you're a customer likely
of many tools. You may or maynot have ACSM in some of those
tools. You work with thoseindividuals to hopefully help
you, you know, have successwith the investment you've
(11:36):
made. Do you really wantanother random person swooping
in at the renewal time andasking you for money
it's like
the experience. Definitely . Ithink that definitely that's
really when we think about it,yes, the whole premise of keep
customer success pure, theyshould be focused on ROI and
(12:00):
outcomes. Yes, I agree withthat. However, I also think
there has to be a comfort levelwith them thinking through the
commercial side of things aswell. Now I will give a little
caveat. I have and a coupletimes put a renewals manager in
place. Mm-Hmm
tough Yeah. They may requireRFPs or tough negotiations.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Definitely. Yeah. I just had a conversation around
this where it totally dependson your renewal cycle. Do you
have a procurement process thatyou have to undergo? Is there
multiple stakeholders that haveto be re-added into the renewal
process? If it's that kind ofway, then yes, you definitely
need someone with a differentskillset to come in and almost
act as your partner in crime tohelp execute on that. But like
(12:46):
you were saying, a hundredpercent , you're still
affecting that revenue outcome,which I love that wording by
the way. And I think that if aCSS leader is not using revenue
targets right now or is notheld accountable, revenue
outcomes is a great place tostart. Can you expand on it?
Can you say like if you hadrevenue outcomes before, what
(13:07):
are some KPIs that they shouldbe tracking or how should they
make sure that their CFO knowsthat they are revenue based
even if they don't have directrevenue targets?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, I'll go way, way, way back. So in the way,
way back machine, one of thethings I did to prove out
customer success at an earlycompany is I ran an AB test.
MM-Hmm
was monitoring, stickiness,renewal and growth and had one
managed by the , a similarportfolio managed by a customer
(13:39):
success manager versus notbeing managed. And the
portfolio that was managed by acustomer success manager
achieved something like 50%greater upsell. Mm-Hmm
on the non-managed was like 20%annualized versus I think it
(14:00):
was like five under 5%. Uh,with the CSM, if you have the
luxury to do that, that is oneway to prove if you run an AB
test over a certain amount oftime, I had that luxury.
Thankfully. Yeah . Noteverybody does. Quite frankly.
Tying things to KPIs, as yousaid, is really important. The
(14:21):
KPIs that I tie my teams to aregross dollar renewal and net
retention. And here's thething, just saying that your
team owns gross dollar renewaland net retention isn't enough.
Mm-Hmm . So make surecompensation model follows, but
also make sure you're notsetting up emotion that causes
(14:45):
cannibalization or any kind ofpolitics internally. I'll
expand on this and this iswhere revenue outcomes comes to
play. Gross dollar renewal.
Yes. CSMs, you are responsiblein my orgs for your individual
gross dollar renewal. So if youhave a hundred dollars up for
renewal, how many of thosedollars renewed? Yep . Think
(15:06):
about your levers that you haveavailable to you to drive the
right revenue outcomes. Right.
And this isn't about selling,this is about you partnering
with your customers to makesure they are successful within
the product. It is worth notingthat I do work heavily in the B
two B enterprise motion. Sowe're usually talking hundreds
of thousands of dollars thatthe contracts that my teams
(15:28):
work with. So that is thingone. Thing two, net retention.
So I have usually a team goalon net retention. Interesting.
And the reason why I do a teamgoal is sometimes we will have
an upsell motion that maybe isparticularly sticky, like not
(15:51):
sticky in a good way. Like it'skind of like, ooh , this could
be really messy or needs extra,you know, negotiation skills.
What I don't want to havehappen is CSMs be so focused on
the dollars that they're notfocusing on what's happening or
what the right thing is fortheir customers. So when you do
(16:12):
a team-based net retentiongoal, everybody wins as long as
the customer is winning and theteam is winning as a whole.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
That makes sense.
Yeah, of course. I , I don't
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Know if I answered your question, but that is
revenue outcomes to me.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
No , definitely you already did. 'cause it's not
just owning the number, it'sthe activities Correct. That
contribute to that number,which I think a lot of people
get intimidated when they'retold, Hey, you have to own NRR
or GRR , any of these revenuenumbers if they've never owned
it before. But it's not justowning the number , it's what
have you contributed to doingday by day, week by week ,
(16:49):
month by month, et cetera , tohelp move the needle forward on
those numbers. Which is I thinka great place to start. You
don't have to own the number,you can just own activities
that contribute to the number,which is a great place to
start. But I'd love to hearyour input on if someone is
currently in a company orrunning a customer success team
that's seen as a cost center,what are some of the first
(17:12):
steps or tips or something thatsomeone can do to shift the
mindset towards becoming arevenue center?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Well first meet with your CFO or your finance leader
to figure out how they're doingthe finances, understand what
makes you a cost center versusyou know, somebody that is
driving revenue. So I, Iwouldn't wanna give advice just
a blanket advice and say do a,B, C, X, Y, Z until the
individuals understand that.
(17:40):
Then ask the question, whatwould it take here internally
for my team to be viewed as orclassified as someone who maybe
isn't under cogs, which is costof goods sold and somebody
who's more on the revenue side.
Right. So what would that takegenerally it , it goes back to
(18:03):
sh having your team own likethe renewal and the upsell.
It's usually that simple infinance world, understanding
what that really means for yourcustomers and your team is
crucial. I wouldn't urge peoplejust to go out and start doing
things willy-nilly, understandwhy it is the way it is now,
(18:25):
what would happen if we changedit? Understand what would that
do to the customer experience,what does that do to the CSS
motion? What skill sets aremissing within your team to be
able to handle renewals? Isthis even necessary? Maybe it's
okay that you're a cog but theteam still views you as
somebody that supports revenueand you can make that a very
(18:48):
solid case. Like really dig in,like put on your curious hat,
curious George hat and go outand like pick up all the rocks,
peel back all the layers of theonion and understand.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Definitely. And I love that you've already
mentioned some of thesecritical things like speaking
to your CFO, but yes, customersuccess is mostly seen under
cost of goods sold. Like it isa typical thing in most SaaS
businesses. Hence why we end upin the cost center pile of
things, but also understand abusiness's profit and loss
(19:20):
margins too. Because that willalso really help you understand
where you fall, how much yourcustomer success managers are
costing versus how much revenuethey're bringing in. And all
this as a leader I wouldpersonally say is just good
knowledge to have. It can onlyhelp you, it doesn't hurt.
Obviously there's a lot ofthings to shift that mindset,
but like you said, juststarting with understanding
(19:42):
those basics can really helpyou propel your whole mindset
and your whole framework andyour whole ownership of
renewals totally can changewhen you decide to start
looking in and being curious,like you said,
Speaker 3 (19:55):
And honestly I know this is a topic probably for a
different day, but this is oneof the things that make a VP
different than ACO.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah , I agree .
Speaker 3 (20:06):
VPs own a function, they own their department and
in their department there couldbe multiple teams in there, but
somebody that's operating atc-level , they own the
business. Yeah. They understandwhat's going on in the business
and what the levers are and howall the little pieces come
together and play together. Um,they understand what the
(20:27):
margins are, they understandwhat the book of business that
their CSMs manage, what thatratio needs to be. Mm-Hmm
viable
Speaker 2 (20:38):
For the business.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Exactly. Yeah , exactly. For
Speaker 2 (20:40):
We could do another whole podcast on like the
difference between being like alike senior customer success
leader and then a trueexecutive owning, like you
said, being a part of thebusiness growth and not just
the necessarily the departmentgrowth. Exactly. But we're
gonna save that for anotherday. Let's come back to the
revenue topic
success has really changed thisyear because of the
(21:03):
macroeconomics of the world. Wealready talked about how CSS
being focused on revenue is ahuge result of this change and
what's happening right now. Butwhat does that mean for the
CSM? I'm just thinking beforeeveryone was like a do it all ,
cover everything. Then we gotsuper specific of, you know,
you need a technical CSM or youneed like, you know, an
implementation manager versusACSM . But what kind of skills
(21:27):
do you think are important forbeing a successful CSM going
into 2024 knowing that thisrevenue shift is so important
right now?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Well, I will tell you what I will be looking for
when I hire, I'm looking forsomebody who is entrepreneurial
in nature. So they're taking alook at their book of business
and they're not just saying,what do I need today from to do
today for my customers? They'relooking at it and they're
looking three months out, sixmonths out, however many months
out to figure out what needs tobe true for this renewal to
(21:59):
happen, what needs to be truefor growth to happen. They're
dissecting their book ofbusiness and looking at green
space like where are theobvious growth opportunities,
where pitfalls and risks thatwe should be aware of as we're
going down this path. They'realso taking a look at contracts
(22:20):
and understanding howcontracting works at their
organization because knowingthat can change how you
interact and who you interactwith and who you know you need
to interact with, right? Youmight be interacting with a
leader of one department, butif the budget you know, lies
within another department, youneed to interact with them as
(22:41):
well. And those are thingsthat, you know, I would expect
my my CSMs to know and learn asthey're managing their book of
business. Like it's their owncompany.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Definitely. I always say that to my CSMs, I'm like,
you are the CEO of your book ofbusiness. So what you do will
directly affect the growth andyou know, acceleration of your
business but will also affectpossible losses in your
business. And you have to treatit like that in order to truly
be successful in your role.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So while I'm notcoming right out and saying
learn how to negotiatecontracts because I don't know
if that's necessary at theirorganization, what I am saying
is switch your thinking and ifyou are ACSM right now
listening to this and you'resitting there waiting for your
customer to reach out to you,stop, stop doing that. I hope
(23:31):
you're not
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Doing that, but hopefully you're doing
something else. But if you are,please stop
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah , it happens.
It happens more than you know,it really does. And that's ,
um, I'm not poo-pooing, it'sjust the way of what it has
been. But stop doing that. Openup your book of business right
now and think how can I beviewed as a better partner to
my customers? What can I do?
What are actions I can takeright now to help them realize
(23:59):
more value on their investmentagain and again and again.
Right? Open up your eyes andthink about it a different way
instead of looking at what arethe fires I need to put out
right now? Think about wherecan we provide more value. One
of the things that we're seeingin this economy is things that
are not mission critical arebeing cut. You do not want to
(24:22):
fall into that. If you have acustomer that cuts you, you
wanna be able to tell the storyof all of the things you did to
prove out value, to proactivelyengage them, to think through
different use cases to reducesingle points of failure,
whatever it may be in yourorganization. You wanna be able
(24:42):
to show all the playbooks youused, all the levers you
pulled. So if your customer issomebody that has to cut your
company, you have the story andthe narrative of everything you
did to make sure that didn'thappen.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Definitely. I couldn't agree more. And you
just said you don't wanna bethat person that gets cut. And
that is happening obviouslyacross the entire SaaS and tech
world. Everyone's evaluatingbudget, really looking at what
they wanna spend on andunfortunately that's also
happened in the customersuccess hiring landscape as
well. There are a lot of peoplethat fell into that cost center
(25:17):
side of things in a business.
And like you said, the easiestthing to start cutting is
things that don't make revenue,which means there are a lot of
people looking for work rightnow. And with the CSS landscape
changing and ACSM possiblylooking for a job today towards
a more revenue centered CSSfunction, what do you think
they should be focusing on? I'm, I'm gonna ask you with the HR
(25:39):
hat on right now, what do youthink they should be looking
for? What do you think theyshould be presenting when
people are looking for roles inas ACSM right now?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Look , I, I know it's hard out there, right? It
is very hard out there rightnow. So a few things, if I'm
gonna put my HR hat on, pretendI'm looking through resumes. If
you are somebody who's neverowned revenue and you're
struggling to get a role, one,be open to taking different
roles within an organizationthat would give you revenue
(26:09):
exposure. Whether that's, youknow, taking on an account
management role because that'snot a big leap. You can go from
being ACSM to an accountmanager or an AE role. Be open
to that to get that experienceand then you can come back and
be that enterprise CSM that hashad, you know, has seen both
(26:29):
sides of the coin. So that'sthing one. Thing two, if you're
like, yeah, no way in hellMiranda, that's never gonna
happen, I'm not gonna do that.
Fine. Figure out ways that youcan prove you have the chops to
hang. So whether that'screating a portfolio, creating
content, whatever it may be,figure out your transferable
(26:50):
skills and how you're gonnatell that story on a resume.
You have, I think thestatistics that I've quoted
before, again and again as youhave seven to 10 seconds. Yeah
,
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Seven I think, I think I've heard seven.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Seven, yeah. Seven seconds. Let's call it seven to
wow the recruiter that isscreening your resume. So
figure out your outcomelanguage on your resume
outcomes that you drove. Don'tjust put, I held EBRs . Great.
Tell me about the outcomes. Iconducted EBRs for top 20
(27:24):
customers and drove 20% growthin revenue. Love that. Bam.
That's a resume. I would belike, oh, I wanna talk to that
individual. So think about howyou're positioning yourself and
also, I hate to say this, butLinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn.
It's so powerful not only fornetworking, but when I am
looking at candidate resumes, Ialso open up their LinkedIns. I
(27:48):
wanna see do things match, youknow, is there any content that
has been put out? Like I lookat all of it, I look at the
holistic picture because I'm abig believer we bring our whole
selves to work. So I like tosee the whole self
put yourself out
Speaker 2 (28:04):
There. Definitely.
And coming back to that resumepiece, I think it's so critical
to highlight key metrics, butalmost like, like you said, tie
it back to revenue. Even if youdidn't have a revenue target or
own a revenue target, youcontributed to revenue in some
way, shape or form in yourprevious roles. So having that
either highlighted in that waythat you just stated, Miranda,
(28:25):
or I've seen a great resumethat on the top, instead of
doing like a summary or aprofile, they just listed all
their EV targets they've everhit. And I was like blown away.
'cause seven seconds I saw thetop of that resume, I was like,
right, I need to speak to thisperson. Yeah. 'cause they
summarized it for me so well inthe top and then they went into
detail later on. But I thinkit's so amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I love that idea.
Your resume is yours. You don'thave to stick to the old
format, right? Like
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Not at all. I would say please don't
please excite me. Exactly .
Like please don't
Speaker 3 (28:56):
sift, you know, I had posted ajob about a month and a half
ago and it blew up. Like I hadlike a thousand applicants
within a few hours and I had toshut it down. Oh
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Gosh. And the market today. It was just crazy
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Oof . And then I had to sit and sift through all
those resumes and I feltpersonally obligated because
you know, it was, I posted itfrom my LinkedIn so I went
resume by resume and there werea handful that really stood out
and they did things just likeyou said.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, it's , you have to really stick out. You
have to be different in thismarket and especially in a
shifting market that is gonnabe revenue focused . You need
to change your narrative, yourstory in whether you own that
number or not. You need to tella really strong story between
how customer success affectsrevenue and coming into that, I
(29:45):
think CSMs and CS leadersreally have to upscale
themselves to prepare for thischange in market and what 2024
is gonna bring us. Because ifyou asked me at the end of 2022
or in the middle of 2022, Iwouldn't have said what we're
going through in 23 was gonnahappen. But hey here we are
constantly changing. I feellike since the pandemic, it's
year after year, a differentlevel of cs. But how do you
(30:07):
think CSMs or CSS leaders canreally upskill themselves to
prepare for the changing ofmarket into 2024 and and into
the future of css? Oh,
Speaker 3 (30:16):
I feel like I still have so much whiplash from
everything that has gone onthis past year. I haven't even
started thinking about 2024,which is a terrible, terrible
answer.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Honest. But
Speaker 3 (30:29):
I a hundred percent honest. I need to, I need to
sit down and really think about2024 just, you know, for my
team but also the industry. IfI think of what's going on
right now, I think 2024 will beconsolidation. So I said this
probably March the first timeon a podcast that this fall in
(30:53):
winter, we're gonna see a lotof startups that are, they're
gonna run outta money. Just tobe quite frank, the funding is
still pretty dry. There's moneyout there to be invested, but
investors are being extracareful. The unit economics
that they're looking for andthe investments that they're
willing to make, it's changed.
It's no longer growth at allcosts . CSS is going to have to
(31:16):
figure out how to tiethemselves to revenue outcomes,
right? I imagine some com mostcompanies are gonna start
seeing their growth pick up,but there's gonna be huge
hesitance around bringing inmore resources because of the
funding, the nature of funding.
So with all of those facts, youknow, being true for 2024
(31:37):
mm-hmm . Where I would urge CSSleaders to really focus on is
what tools and technologies areout there that are going to
help make your CSS team moreefficient, improve your
customer experience, make it ano-brainer. So when the renewal
does come up, your customersare like, yes, I have to
continue to work with them, butreally hone in and leverage.
(32:00):
Like there's some amazing toolsand technologies out there.
Finance is more likely to giveyou money to buy a tool than
they will be to hire a person.
Just remember that. So if Iwere to give anyone advice,
it's right now act like youcan't hire in 2024 when you're
planning, what would you dodifferently?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I think you hit the nail on the head with the, what
we knew as growth at all costshas now what I think will bring
sustainability at all costsinto 2024. And I think we have
to think of revenue andsustainability in customer
success and how do we do that?
Being mindful of cashflow, likeyou just said. And I think that
that's gonna be the biggestchallenge and I'm glad you
(32:44):
brought it up. 'cause I thinkthat tools and processes and
efficiency is really gonnaunlock the successful customer
success teams over the onesthat maybe fail or flop or
businesses close . That'llreally set you apart. But we
can keep talking all day,Miranda, about this topic and
every other topic in customersuccess. But I wanna wrap up
(33:05):
with our quick fire questions.
So are you ready to try toanswer the next few questions
in one sentence or less?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
God, it's so hard for me. I'm so loquacious, but
yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
It's okay. You're not the only person that I've
challenged and has not made itthrough this, but let's try.
The first question I have foryou is, what do you think is
next for the customer successindustry?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I think we're gonna see AI become more front and
center in customer success, andI'll just keep it to that short
sentence. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Next question is, which SaaS product can you not
live without as a CSSprofessional?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Well, because I'm a leader of a team, I'm gonna say
lattice, it helps keepeverything organized with my
team. So
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Nice. I love Lattice. Next question is, what
is your favorite CSS learningresource? My
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Favorite CSS learning resource. Um , well,
honestly it's podcast andwebinars like this. I don't
have one in general, but I , Ilove catching what's going on
in podcast and hearing thethoughts from all of the, the
folks in the community.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Amazing. And my final question is, who is
inspiring you and whom do youthink we should next have as
our podcast guest?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Kristen Hare is doing some amazing work. If you
haven't spoken with her, sheshould be on your list. Jay
Nathan, I follow hisnewsletter. Um, those are two
immediately. Like Jay Nathan isa good, he does a good job of
talking about business, notjust customer success. And I
think that's important.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I love that about everything he shares. It's
always tied back to thebusiness, unique economics of
everything. Totally.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
And I do have one rapid question for you.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Okay. Oh , I've never gotten this, but Miranda
, being a podcast host yourself. I feel like this is natural.
So go on Miranda, ask me aquestion. What's
Speaker 3 (34:48):
The name of your Yorkie that I keep seeing? Oh,
that nobody will see. It'sadorable. But it's a Yorkie,
right?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yes, yes. She's a teacup Yorkie and she's not
here anymore, but her name iszz .
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Oh , so adorable.
Anyway, that was my rapid firequestion. I hit 'em hard, don't
I? Yeah,
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I love it. I love it When she comes back, I'll show
you her. Anyways, Miranda,thank you so much for being on
the show, sharing yourinsights, taking your time. If
anyone has any other questionsor follow up to our
conversation, what's the bestway of getting ahold of you? Uh
,
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Just on LinkedIn.
Very simple.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Amazing. Thank you again and , uh, thanks for your
time. Thank
Speaker 3 (35:23):
You.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Thank you for listening to the Customer
Success Channel podcast today.
We hope you learn something newto take back to your team and
your company. If you foundvalue in our podcast, please
make sure to give us a positivereview and make sure you
subscribe to our channel as werelease new podcasts every
month. Also, if you have anytopics that you would like me
to discuss in the future or youwould like to be a guest on the
(35:46):
podcast, please feel free toreach out. All my contact
details are in the show notes.
Thanks again for listening. Andtune in next time for more on
customer success.
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