December 15, 2023 • 43 mins
In this episode, our host Anika Zubair chats with Sue Nabeth Moore, Co-Founder of Success Chain about the future of customer success.
As we approach the end of the year, it's crucial to begin strategizing for customer success in 2024. Despite the hurdles we've encountered recently, we must now pave the way for a successful year ahead. So, what should be the key focus areas for customer success in 2024? And how can we strike the perfect balance between customer ROI and fostering business growth?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello everyone. I'm your host, Anika Bert , and
welcome back to the nextepisode of the Customer Success
Channel podcast, brought to youby Plan Hat , the Modern
Customer platform. This podcastis created for anyone working
in or interested in thecustomer success field. On this
podcast, we will speak toleaders in the industry about
their experiences and theirdefinitions of customer
(00:26):
success, and get their adviceand best practices on how to
run a CS organization. TodayI'm speaking to Sue Namath
Moore , who is a communitybuilder, entrepreneur, and
consultant. She's passionateabout helping companies sees
leaders and teams evolve in thecustomer success process. She's
(00:48):
the co-founder of Success Chain, a customer success enablement
consultancy. Today, we will belooking back and speaking about
the future of customer success.
As we wrap up 2023, it's timeto plan our next year of growth
and strategy within customersuccess. The last few years
have been a bumpy ride incustomer success, but as we
look forward and plan for 2024,there is growth and opportunity
(01:12):
ahead. Let's chat to Sue abouther thoughts around customer
success planning for 2024. Sue,welcome to the podcast. I'm so
very excited to have you herewith us today. Before we jump
into our topic for today, canyou please tell our listeners a
little bit more about yourselfand how you started in customer
success and how you've ended upwhere you are today?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes. Well, first of all , thanks Ika for your
invitation, and I can't wait tosee you again in person on the
CSS circuit as we're justtalking about. So for those
that dunno me, I'm called SueAbbit more . I'm a passionate
evangelist of customer successhere in Europe. As you can
gather, I'm British. I'moriginally from a place called
(01:55):
Darby, which is in the middleof, of the uk, but I've been
living in Paris now for, Idon't say over 30 years,
, where I'm marriedwith my French husband. I have
three French sons, and I'm onlythe misfit in all that I think
I, I speak fluent French and alot of people say still with a
very funny accent,
Speaker 2 (02:17):
.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
So anyway, they say it's farming, so I'm just gonna
continue to do that. And theco-founder of Success Chain ,
which is , which is a companywhich helps , um, companies
either to put into place or tofine tune their customer
success strategies andoperations. So I'm the
co-founder along with JasonWhitehead and Kelly Lucas. I'm
(02:40):
like Hugh Akai . I'm passionateabout bringing together the
community. So I've beenorganizing for the last seven
years , uh, customer SuccessMeetup in Paris, and it's there
where we hold regular meetups,which are now hosted by
different companies. I alsolived in Lisbon for a couple of
years , uh, just before Covidhit , and was organizing
(03:00):
regular meetups there as, aswell for, for a couple of
years. I'm also the co-founderof Engage Paris, which is a
French speaking customersuccess summit. I think it's
one of the rare customersuccess summits in the world,
which is not in English thattakes place every year. So
we're organizing our fifth ,uh, edition for next June. And
(03:23):
I also, I used to love , uh,contributing to events and
podcasts like this , uh, whereI can share my passion, share
my learnings, because I thinkwe're all learning all the time
in customer success. Uh, it'snever ending . It's a wonderful
profession. And just on apersonal note, yeah, I just
love spending time with myfriends, having drinks and
cooking and , uh, being with mythree sons. And I love
(03:47):
traveling and going to visithistoric places and castles and
just eating great food anddrinking excellent wine ,
making
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Amazing. I also love the expat story, Sue, as an
expat myself, I haven't been inthe UK as long as you've been
in Paris, but it is somethingthat I always think about with
the accent. It confuseseveryone that I'm here and then
I have an American accent, butthey're like, you're in London,
why do you have that accent ?
And I'm sure that has nevergone away for you living in
(04:16):
Paris, and still you have anEnglish accent, although I
wouldn't say it's that strong,but I guess everyone there
definitely hears the Englishmore than the French, so I hear
that
Speaker 3 (04:27):
. That's
right. You know, and it's, it's
, it's, it's weird actually,because, you know, some people
find it , uh, surprising. I'vebeen living here so long and
still do have this lousyEnglish accent when I'm
speaking French . But, but I , I , you know, I
think it's a question of howold you are. You know, if had I
come here as a kid, I probablywould've lost my lousy English
(04:48):
accents. I think it's, youknow, it's , it's all in your
mind. And, and probably in thegymnastics of growing up.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, definitely. I would say the same. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (04:56):
That's my way of consoling myself. So,
Speaker 2 (04:59):
, no, I say
the same. I'm like, I lived the
majority of my life in the USbut also I grew up there and
that's what I knew whenlearning language, how to
speak. So that is the way it'llprobably stick no matter how
long I stay in England.. Um , but a little bit more
into the customer success sideof things. I know you're super
passionate about everything incustomer success. From the
(05:20):
events, from co-founding yourown business, from bringing the
community together, as youalready stated, what actually
inspired you to start work incustomer success? I speak to so
many leaders and professionalsin css, and I think we all have
such unique journeys, and Iabsolutely love that about our
profession. And I would love tohear your unique story of what
(05:42):
inspired you in customersuccess. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I agree with you Annika, and I was really
inspired to do customer successeven before I'd heard the term.
In fact, just to tell thestory, I've been in software
now since the very first CRMstarted in Europe. So that's
going back like the turn of themillennium, you know, which,
which makes me sound reallyanxious ., we , we
(06:06):
first started to see Salesforcearrive in France around 20
years ago. And at that time I,I was a project manager for,
for Salesforce. And I justobserved back then the massive
non adoption of Salesforce. Um, I probably think it's still
probably the case even now, 20years later, to be honest. And
, and that's when I firststarted to become interested in
(06:28):
change management. And so Ipivoted my career at that time
to become a change managementconsultant, mainly for CRMs.
And it was at that time when Iwas also working for a French
integrator and we wereimplementing and integrating
lots of different kinds ofsoftware. Not just CRMs, but
business intelligence tools,MDMs, intranets, HR Systems.
(06:50):
And back then our , our companywas pivoting and they, they had
a new logo and a new baselinecalled Driving Distinction at
that time. And it was then thatI proposed to my CEO , I said,
look, you know, if we reallywant to drive in distinction
and walk the talk of , of thisnew baseline, then we really
must put something into placeto make sure that we actually
(07:13):
are doing something differentfrom our competitors. So that's
why I suggested to him to putinto place a whole new offer,
which was on top of theintegration offers where we
could actually focus on goingbeyond the go live for our
customers and start to reallytalk about tangible results and
(07:34):
outcomes as a result of theirinvestment. So this is where
the CEO , he gave me hisblessing. He said, go ahead,
Sue, go and do it. So I becamean intrapreneur at that
integrator, and I, I put intoplace a whole new transversal
offer for the company, whichreally did differentiate us
because, you know, I was, I wasputting in this offer, which
was a combination, it was ablended offer between change
(07:56):
management and customersuccess. And which had the aim
of getting our customers oncethey'd done their integrated go
live to go beyond that. So weactually had a team of 10
people, which, which I , um,hired to, to do that. So at the
time, , I remember itwas a real struggle to try and
(08:18):
think of a name because, youknow, that was back, that was
13 years ago. And we'd neverheard of customer success then,
particularly in France, youknow, so at the time, I , I
called this offer, it's funny,actually, I called it the BBC
Speaker 2 (08:32):
. I'm
guessing it isn't the British
Broadcasting Company. And ithas a different neat meaning
Speaker 3 (08:37):
, you are
right, . So it
absolutely has nothing to dowith top gear , nothing to do
with match of the Day. And itwas an acronym, you're right,
Anika , it meant boostingbusiness change. That was the
B, B , C . And you know, inhindsight , um, , when
you think, you know, whenyou're trying to tell people
what you do as a profession,you say, I'm in customer
(08:58):
success. And you see thereaction of people saying, oh,
you know, that soundsinteresting. I think it would
be much better if we said,, I'm a business
booster. I think thattranslates .
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Oh, that is an even better name than customer
happiness. 'cause I feel like Iget that all the time when you
say, oh, I'm in customersuccess. So you're in customer
happiness, but business boosteralso sounds like a great way to
put it.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
I think. So I think it translate nicely what we're
trying to say in a very longkind , usually a longwinded
explanation of what we're doingin customer success.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
No, but what you just said around change
management, I think thathappens every day in customer
success. And I think it's veryunderrated. And like you said,
with the evolution ofSalesforce, but all the, also
the evolution of us moving fromon-premise to SaaS businesses,
there was so much changemanagement that happened there,
and it was understood becausewe were actually physically
(09:51):
changing from being on-prem toCloud-based. But we do that
every single day in customersuccess. Change management is
something we're doinginternally, externally with key
stakeholders. You name it. Ijust feel like we do it all the
time. And your fun way ofsaying we're B, B , C or
boosting business change thatis so accurate. I think that
(10:12):
that's a great way of puttingit. And I know that you have
quite a few other things toshare around our topic today,
which at the time of usrecording this, it is coming to
the end of 2023, and we aremoving into 2024. So I
definitely wanna talk to youabout what your thoughts are as
we move into the new year. Butbefore we actually talk about
the future, we've had a lot ofchange in the last few years in
(10:36):
customer success. And the lastfew years have been a rocky
road in customer success aswell. I don't ever think CSS
has been easy, but the last fewyears have definitely tested a
lot of businesses, a lot of CSSleaders. Um, what is your take
on what's happened in customersuccess over the last few
years?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, that , that's spot on Anika , and I think ,
uh, you know , we've beenthrough a real rollercoaster
ride, I think o over the lastfew years. And we've certainly
seen that, you know, from thedifferent events that we, we've
taken part in , uh, especiallyon the London scene as well.
For me, that the biggest breakI think was back in 2020. You
know, we're right in the midstof covid, and although Covid,
(11:15):
it was a catastrophe for, forthe world, I think that Covid
actually puts customer successon the map. Definitely.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, I , I mean, we , we speak to a lot of , uh,
CSS leaders on a regular basis,and a lot of them told me, you
look, you know, since Covid,they, they've been seen and
perceived internally at theircompany as being strategic and
no longer just a fifth wheel ofthe wagon, right? So it really
helped 'em to put 'em on apedestal. So I think that, you
know, going through toughtimes, like, like Covid
(11:46):
companies really had to pivot,you know, obviously it was very
difficult to gain newcustomers, particularly in
certain impacted markets likehospitality and travel. So
covid, you know, it , it helpedus to really focus on, you
know, how to retain andprobably even to expand by
offering different servicesduring those, those covid
times. I also think anotherresult of covid was the heavy
(12:09):
investments in SaaS generally.
Um , so there were hugeinvestments made as a , as a
result of covid just to keep usall connected, you know, and
keep us all collaborating andworking together, you know,
working from home with workingsolutions, remote education
solutions for, for children and, and students. So as a result
of that, you know, with thisincrease in SaaS, there was
(12:30):
also an increase in theprofession of customer success
going back in 2020 as we'recoming outta Covid, we're
seeing this increase in, in theCSS roles across the globe, you
know, and if I just comparewith last year and you saw the
job market, you know, the jobmarket this time last year was
exploding. And it's somethingwhich I look at regularly
(12:52):
because I, I regularlycommunicate at this, at the
different meetups and events.
However, what we've seen in thepast year 2023 is sad, you
know, because we've seen allthese massive layoffs,
particularly in customersuccess, where we've seen lots
of CSS leaders and evenpractitioners and even whole
teams have been laid off. And Ithink this is a result of the
(13:15):
recession in , in the us youknow, we see particularly us
that's been impacted by, bythese layoffs, but this has had
a kind of snowboard effect,particularly in the uk, which
is a bit like the 53rd state ofUnited States , so
. So they've had thatkind of ricochet effect. Uh, we
haven't seen that so much herein France because of the
(13:35):
protection laws, you know, for,for the job markets . Yeah. So
with all these layoffs, youknow, just in the tech sector
alone, I was reading anarticle, they're saying like
something like just , just thisyear, 168,000 people have been
laid off just in tech. Youknow, obviously not all that .
That's crazy. That's crazy,
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right? That is such , that's such a heartbreaking
number. And like you said, theCSS world has yo yoed so much
over the last three years. Itwas at the highest high when we
got a seat at the table becauseeveryone was realizing in the
pandemic that it's better andcheaper to keep a customer
rather than acquire a new one.
And then the cash influx fromthe VC or the capital world
(14:17):
resulted in, you know, higherat all cost . And CSS was seen
as, like you said, up on apedestal and they were just so
important. And it was great tosee that, but now there was
such a crash and it's soheartbreaking to see the
layoffs continue to happen. AndI think it's something that we
have to take into considerationas we plan for 2024 and as CSS
(14:37):
leaders that are currentlythinking about their budgeting
or their planning, or maybecoming to the end of it and
thinking of what should wefocus on going into the new
year, knowing what we know forthe last three years. I think
it's a tough question to answerand I think it's something that
we're figuring out, but I knowyou have some really strong
feelings about what the futureof CSS is, and I'd love to hear
(14:59):
from you what you think as aCSS leader, someone should be
focusing on knowing what weknow, but also looking forward.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Absolutely. And , and I think within this context
and, and this historical kindof lead up to, to where we are
now, we've just been talkingabout Annika , I think that we
are really facing a dilemma incustomer success. And I still
think we're struggling toposition the role of customer
(15:29):
success as a growth engine. SoI would say, you know, view to
this rollercoaster experiencewe've had over the , over the
last three years, is the timethat we should really be
focusing on how to positioncustomer success as a growth
engine. So how do we provevalue of customer success
internally to our companies,thanks to driving value to the
(15:55):
customer. So I really think,you know, in , in the hindsight
of all these layoffs, you know,we're still, as you just said,
ed , we're still going through, uh, very difficult times. And
I think that customer successin these difficult times is
still perceived as nice tohave. It's still perceived at
this cost center, which we caneasily dismiss. Mm-Hmm,
. Mm-Hmm . So this is what
(16:16):
we should be changing. And Ithink, you know, I'm always
using this term where we needto really focus customer
success as being a earnbooster. Mm-Hmm
and no longer this legacy ofbeing a churn buster.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Ooh , another play on words. I'm loving all these
things, Sue earn booster ratherthan churn buster. Yeah ,
Speaker 3 (16:38):
And of the time, you know, when , when I'm saying
companies putting customersuccess into place, it's a
reactionary measure to bustchurn . And
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think that's a historical fact. If you think
about it. I mean, customersuccess is an evolution in
SaaS, but if you take it wellback, we fall into customer
service or support or in theway of something's wrong, let's
fix it. And that's usually atthe cost to a company rather
than thinking of a profitablepart of the business. So it is
coming back to what you saidabout change management. A very
(17:13):
big thing a CSS leader has tofocus on is not only how do you
position yourself as a growthengine, but how are you going
to influence other businessleaders within your business to
really understand how customersuccess is actually that growth
lever rather than the costcenter like you just said. And
it is a tough time, and foranyone who's listening that's
(17:33):
going through any layoffs orthinking about how I'm gonna go
into 2024, my personal view isthat CSS always comes back
stronger no matter what we'vebeen put through. I, I feel
like looking historically, we,we tend to come back stronger.
And we do do that because Ithink we're a very resilient
bunch and we are constantlythrown everything. 'cause CSMs
(17:54):
have to do everything under thesun sometimes, and because of
that we are very resilient. Butbeing this growth engine is, is
something that I think is notnew, but it's something that is
hard to put into practice asyou've just, you know, said
we're , we're known as churnbusters rather than the revenue
piece. So if I was a CSSleader, thinking about going
(18:15):
into growth into 2024, what aresome of the KPIs I should focus
on? What are some of the, Iguess, change management I
should be doing to change thatwording around from, from being
a churn buster into the, intothe revenue piece? Yeah,
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I , I think as, as a customer success leader, I
think what what's reallyimportant is, is to know how to
tell compelling stories to therest of the company. So the
other leaders that you justmentioned, but also your, your
C-suite and how to join thetops between the activities
which you and your team aredoing in customer success and
(18:50):
how this impacts the revenueand the margins of your
company. You know, salesleaders, they've been doing
this with their eyes closedfor, for years, you know,
, it's probably , it's probably easy for
salespeople because, you know,they have relatively simple
KPIs, you know, their KPIs,okay. They have a quota to, to
go and sell. So it's verysimple. When you look at cs,
(19:12):
you know, we have a wholeplethora of different KPIs.
There are many different onesthat we could be using. But for
me, what's really important is,is for a CSS leader to really
tell the story with, for me,there were four sets of KPIs
which a CSS leader should beusing, right? And I think in
order to do the storytellingwith those four sets of KPIs,
(19:35):
it's necessary to join thedots. So what are those four
sets of KPIs? I think ideallyin, in a SaaS company at least,
you know, everybody's talkingabout the NRR, right ? As , as
, as a main indicator for me, Ithink the NRR is is not a css,
KPI, this should be acompany-wide, KPI, to which
(19:56):
everybody contributes in thecompany . All functional roles,
including the CSS role, ofcourse, right? So CSS leaders,
they should have KPIs thatprove that they are actually
contributing to the NRR theyand their teams. So what are
these four KPIs? I've put theminto four buckets. The first
(20:18):
set of KPIs are all aroundcustomer outcomes. That's the
first one for me. This is byfar the most important leading
indicators which customersuccess leaders should be using
to prove that they arecontributing to net revenue
retention. And we'll be lookingat some of those later on . The
(20:38):
second set are , are the , thevendor business KPIs that prove
that the CSS team is actuallycontributing to the bottom line
and to the NR . The third areKPIs around adoption and health
scoring. And the fourth areteam performance KPIs. But I'd
like to focus on the first tworeally more than anything , uh,
(20:59):
because I think that's what'sgonna make the difference about
becoming this growth engine. Sofor me, the first one is , is
the time to time to value, thefirst time to value what
constitutes the first ahamoment of gain and progress ,
uh, for the customer. Somecompanies are measuring the
first time to value, others arestill struggling. But beyond
(21:21):
the first time to value, wealso need to put into place
KPIs which measure incrementalvalue after that first time to
value.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yes. Oh, I so agree on that. I, I'm nodding my head
viciously. I know no one cansee me, but I feel like we
focus so long , much on time tolaunch, or time to live, or
time to first value, like yousaid, but it is so much more
than that. It is the fulllifetime of the customer being
with you and making sure theysee value at incremental
(21:51):
moments like you've just said.
So, completely agree.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Absolutely. And because that is quite difficult
to do, you know, it's not aneasy task. So, so I think, you
know , as a consequence of that, uh, in custom success, we've,
we've been ignoring that , uh,because it's difficult. So any
, anything that's difficult,you tend to put your head in
the sand. And I think that'swhere we are now, and we ,
that's what we need to changein , that we need to put into
(22:16):
place frameworks, data, and youknow, we , we have facility for
that now with artificialintelligence, and I'll come to
that a little bit later, butit's really important that we
start to come out of our shellabout that and really start to
put stuff into place, whichmakes it easy for your
customers to measure tangibleresults. Right,
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Another one is the detection of promoters. I mean
, I know that, you know, every,every time we talk about NPS in
customer success, it's, it'slike the more might effect, you
either hate it or you love it.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
, it's the
most controversial topic in
customer success. .
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It's , I mean , we could do a whole podcast on
that, but
Speaker 2 (22:54):
No, I , I think we could write an entire thesis on
it. Like I think the , theamount of controversy that one
KPI can cause in customersuccess, we could go on for
years about the topic of NPS.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Exactly. But what I think is really important is
that in , in customer success,though , we're actually
actioning, you know , the, thedetection of promoters. So any
promoters that we're detectingthrough NPS, you know, this is
something which we can bereally leveraging and making
sure that this is one of theKPIs. You know, we detected so
many promoters that then becomeadvocates and detecting
(23:27):
advocates and actually doingstuff with ad advocates, you
know, making them advocate onyour behalf, making referrals,
et cetera, et cetera . We canmeasure that. And that's a
great KPI, which we should bemeasuring. I think at Success
Chain , which is my company,we've also started to implement
other very customer centricKPIs, which are now customer
(23:48):
success leaders, but also theirteams to measure customer
outcomes from the perspectiveof the different types of
customer contacts, which youare having conversations with.
So, you know, you're , a lot ofthe times CS we're having
conversations withstakeholders, the decision
makers . So we put into place awhole KPI, which measures,
okay, what is the valueperception score as a result of
(24:12):
their investment? So askingstakeholders, it's a bit like
the NPS, but it's, it's what wecall VPSA value perception
score, which measures, okay,are you getting value as a
result of your investment forthe users? We're , we're
implementing , uh, a similarthing. We call it the G, the
GPS job perception score,which, which this time , uh,
evaluates whether the actualend users are getting value and
(24:35):
whether it's actually helpingthem do their jobs better.
Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Which is, again, the value piece is so critical, I
think, in everything we do incustomer success. And a lot of
times, I, I believe NPS doesn'tmeasure that value piece and
that's really hard to track.
But like you just said, thevalue perception score is how
much value are you getting outof this product? This call,
this interaction, whatever itis, is so, so important. And I
(25:03):
think these are all great KPIsand I think as a leader,
there's lots of things you canfocus on going into 2024, and I
think there's a lot of leversthat can be pulled to focus on
growth, but you do have to makethat connection between how am
I driving value for mycustomers while driving revenue
for my business? I think that'sa very big bridging gap that as
(25:24):
leaders we have to tactfullyand regularly tackle when it
comes to our role in 2024 asCSS growth engine. So I love a
lot of what you've shared thereon what we can do. On the flip
side though, if I'm A CSM, alot of times a cs M'S mindset
is being proactive or trying tobe proactive, but our actions
(25:48):
end up being quite reactive. Sowhat are some of the ways that
A CSM can move away from beingchurn focused and more customer
value and outcomes focused ?
'cause we are alwaysfirefighting. It's a natural,
it's a natural thought in aCSMs head. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Absolutely. And , and I think that's it. You
know, we're like a , ahamstring, a wheel of trying to
trying to, to solveproblems all the time . So I
think the first thing forA-A-C-S-M to become more
proactive and , and to be morefocused on values and outcomes
as, as opposed to being thischurn buster I is to really try
and have conversations with thecustomers which are focused on
(26:27):
value and outcomes. Now, that'snot always easy because, you
know, the customer a lot of thetimes tends to orientate the
conversation towards things ,uh, which he can see the
tangible things which he cansee in the tool. So he is
talking about features andbells and whistles. 'cause
that's the emerged parts of theiceberg, which everybody can
see. So it becomes like acomfort zone, you know, to be
(26:50):
talking about bells andwhistles and features and
functionalities because that'sthe shared part of the emerged
iceberg, which everybody sees,right? So I think one of the
responsibilities of the CSM tobecome more proactive is to try
and orientate the conversationto start talking about matters
and, and , and themes which arein the submerged part of the
(27:11):
iceberg. So the submerged partof the iceberg, what we're
talking about is the intangibleaspects such as human behavior
routines, change managementprocesses, which maybe have to
be changed as a consequence of, um, implementing your tool.
You know, you never, you neverimplement a tool and it's a
standalone thing where you'rejust pressing buttons. A tool
(27:32):
is al also part of a context,and that context is the
business context. So customersuccess managers need to
proactively better understandthat business context and to
see how the tool is actuallycamouflaged within that
context. Um, so that's, that'sone thing. And obviously
elevating the conversation.
(27:52):
Another thing that we, we haveput into place so that CSMs can
become more proactive atsuccess chain is our framework.
So we have a framework which wecall A MPM , which, which
literally translators, yeah,morning and afternoon of course
. And by the laws ofnature, you can never go to the
afternoon if you haven't gonethrough the morning. And A MPM
(28:13):
means activity measurements,performance measurements. And
what we're doing with thisframework is mapping out based
on the different performancemeasurements, so meaning the
customer outcomes, what wouldthe, the different users and
even stakeholders need to do interms of activity and how can
they measure that activity . Sothere's a correlation between
(28:37):
activity measurement and therecan be several different
activities and in order to getto a performance measurement,
so just to rize this, thisframework, I always use the
analogy of a coach, a gymcoach. So just to give you an
example of this, A MPMframework, just to, to give you
(28:57):
analogy of the gym coach,imagine , uh, that you are a
persona who wants to lose 10kilos. Well, this is not,
imagine this is real life forme, losing my 10 kilos, right?
, that's the performancegoal that we should be
measuring as whether or notwe're gonna be losing these 10
kilos and order to get there.
We have activity measurements,which we're also going to be
(29:19):
measuring. So the activitymeasurement for losing these 10
kilos will be to run sixkilometers three times a week.
It could be to consume no morethan 2000 calories per day. It
could be to work in a gym twicea week and sleep at least seven
hours per night, for example,to make sure we're losing
those, those 10 kilos. So thesame applies for B2B world. You
(29:42):
know, obviously if you are aBDR persona for example, and
you are using a lead generationtool, then your performance
could be, okay, how to increasemy conversion rate by 2%. So
then you would decline thatperformance objective into
different activities, which youas a , a proactive CSM are then
(30:02):
recommending your customer,your end user to do in order to
attain that 2% conversion rate. And that's something which
you can measure within thetool. If we're talking about
tool adoption, obviously youhave that data already, but
it's also something which youcan raise mutual expectations
about with your customer sothat they become transparent
(30:24):
and, and that they aremotivated to share that
information with you when it'ssomething which is not obvious
within the tool, for example.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That makes complete sense. And I think that having
those drivers that connect whatyour customer's values are to
the business revenue part isso, so important. And I think a
lot of times it's not spelledout for customer success
managers. And as leaders, Iwould encourage you to spell it
out, just like you've done withthe gym analogy. It's okay,
(30:55):
here is NRR is our North starmetric. Amazing. We're gonna
make sure we're increasingrevenue and reducing churn.
Okay, but how are we gettingthere? Where are the key
indicators or what are the keyactions that I would need to
take as a customer successmanager to do those steps? It
needs to be broken down assimply as what you just said
(31:16):
with the gym analogy, which Ithink we sometimes forget. We
get so caught up in thebusiness or business as usual
topics of, yes, we need toincrease revenue or yes, we
need to reduce churn, but how,what is the step by step guide
on how you do it? Which isanother question I do have for
you is how do you drive valueor ROI for your customers and
(31:39):
make sure you connect it backto business growth. Because I
think in CSS it's considered adirty word that we're
upselling, but I don't thinkthat has to happen in a
specific call. I think we drivevalue in all the calls we do.
So how are you takingeverything we just talked about
frameworks and outlining thatinternally and then making sure
as a CSM you're having thoserightful conversations with
(32:01):
your customer that's givingthem their outcomes, but
driving growth for yourbusiness.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah, it , it is and I think it , it becomes a bit
of a taboo subject. You know ,we're talking about upsell,
it's still a taboo subject, butno, I think we, we need to have
those very open and transparent, uh, conversations right up
front with our customers. Sothe customers, you know, you
know that we're, we're here tohelp you make business as a
customer and as a consequence,this will also help us to grow
(32:27):
our business, not just from afinancial point of view, but
also from a point of view ofperfecting the offers that we
are actually going to beproposing to you as a customer.
So it really is this kind of ,uh, viral spiral of, of win-win
growth where instead of usbeing two entities, you know,
the customer and the vendor,it's almost as if we're
(32:48):
becoming one, you know, becausewe're helping each other. I
scratch you back your back, youscratch my back. It's this kind
of viral spiral of health andwealth. And I think to, to join
the dots between the ROI andthe value of the customer and
how this is growing yourbusiness, I think you really
need to put into place thoseindicators, which we've just
been talking about, and makesure that you have dashboards
(33:10):
which can actually connect thedots between the customer
outcomes and ROI and how thatis becoming a leading
indicator, which is actuallyforecasting the future growth
of your business. So you shouldbe putting those dashboards
into place to show thatcorrelation and to show, you
know, we're talking aboutleading and lagging indicators.
(33:30):
And for me at the moment, Ithink in the world of customer
success, we are still usingleading indicators, which are
very vendor centric, verynegative, you know, using churn
a lots , which is in , initself a lagging indicators ,
not even leading indicator. SoI think we need to revise the
whole set of leading indicatorsthat we're using to make that
(33:52):
correlation with the bottomline. And I think, and the best
call for that is to startputting into place leading
indicators around customeroutcomes.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, I totally agree. 'cause there is a lot of
lagging indicators in customersuccess, especially even NRRI
know it is our north starmetric, but it is a lagging
indicator because you have tolook back in order to predict
it. And we should be able tolook forward to predict our
revenue, our outcomes, and ourcustomer value . So it is
(34:23):
something to go back to thedrawing board and think as
leaders and see asprofessionals of how this looks
moving into 2024 so we canposition ourselves correctly as
that growth part of thebusiness. Now Sue, we've talked
a lot about different things,different levers, different
ways that you can positionyourself to be that growth
engine going into 2024, but Ithink some of our listeners
(34:47):
would want to know some of yourlearnings or tactical takeaways
of anything you've learned whenwalking the fine line between
customer ROI and businessgrowth. Because again, it's
almost a dirty word to say,Hey, we need to focus on the
revenue and the sales or theprofit because we're, we're
(35:08):
customer relationship people.
But I would love to know whatare some of your learnings
around walking that fine linebetween ROI and business
growth.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Maybe we even need to redefine, you know, what,
what we mean by businessgrowth. Because if we're still
having this as, as you say ,this kind of association of
this being kind of a , a taboosubject because you know, we're
talking about finance, we'retalking about money, then I
think we need to redefine, youknow , what we're doing in
customer success . Because I ,I think it's really important
(35:37):
to understand that customersuccess is about business. It's
not just about relationshipbuilding. Relationship building
is a means to an end, but theend is, is to make business and
business is not necessarily adirty thing. You know,
business is , is the way thatthe world has always , uh,
ticked. And so we can just cancontinue to do that, but in a
way which is, let's sayholistically beneficial for
(36:00):
both the vendor and thecustomers. It's probably the
first time in business thatwe've had this privilege of
working together, right? Sothat's the first thing, the
learnings that I've had,because it's not easy to do.
Everything we're talking aboutof course is not easy, but the
learnings that I've had in , inputting all this into place is
that vendors should really makethe effort to propose this
(36:22):
mapping of tangible KPIs forthe customer and the vendor to
measure. And I think, you know,because up until now we've been
finding it difficult, so it's abit of burying the head in the
sand. Um, so what we need to dois we need to really put into
place this whole framework ,uh, by rolling up our sleeves.
So we need to do a lot of workbeforehand. Like, you know, I
(36:43):
mentioned the A MPM . That issomething which takes time. You
know, you really need to do alot of research about your
customers, whether it'sinterviewing them, whether it's
doing research, you know, aboutmarket research, about, you
know, what are the pain pointsfor your tick particular
personas. And then when you'vedone that, that work and it is,
it is a heavy lifting to dothat, that then becomes easy
(37:07):
for you to, every time you havea new customer that you are
onboarding, it's very easybecause, you know, if you ask
the question to your customer,okay, what does success look
like? They probably won't beable to answer. And a lot of
the times they dunno how toarticulate that, right? It's
probably not the right personeven that you're speaking to.
So if you can be proactive andhave this framework say, look,
you know, customers like you inthe same vertical as you,
(37:30):
they're , they're already doingthis and this is what they're
measuring and after threemonths of doing this, that, and
the other, this is where theyget to in terms of outcome,
right? So you can do that andand, and make sure that it's
something which is easy andtangible and take it in
bite-sized steps so that, youknow, as we said earlier, you
know, you have your first timeto value, but then because of
this framework you can knowthat after the first six months
(37:54):
you can attain another value,which, which is even more
impactful than the first timeto value. And so you go on
along the customer journey. I
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Love all those pieces. I think they're so, so
important to remember that it'sabout the first step, but it's
also building on the frameworksthat you've just built. And I
think that that's a big part ofwhat we have to do moving into
2024 and planning for 2024 islooking at the frameworks that
we do have, but readjusting andmaking sure that we take step
(38:22):
by step progress on buildingout that growth engine based on
what we have. We don't have tostart from scratch, like you
said, you , we already havevery strong frameworks, but
it's about positioning, it'sabout making sure you have
growth levers and leadingindicators rather than lagging
indicators. And I think all ofthat is what we have to build
on to make sure 24 starts withsuccess.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Absolutely. And I think, you know, 'cause the,
the indicators, the leading andlagging indicators that we've
spoken about is reallyimportant. But I think as well
that , that I think there'sanother kind of taboo subject
in the world of customersuccess and I think that's
being vocal about what you aredoing and the impact that
you're having on your company.
I , I've seen so many CSleaders, I dunno if it's , um,
(39:04):
due to modesty perhaps, but Ithink we should shout really
loudly about the impact thatwe're having, you know, so
every time you have a wonderfulcustomer testimonial or
customer that said, you know,they're getting value or
whatever it is , then that'ssomething we should communicate
about internally regularly .
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I, I do agree. I think it's something we don't
shout about enough and wedefinitely should do more. So
if that's on anyone's to-dolist for 2024, make sure you
highlight what you as a leader,but also what your department
is doing, what your individualcontributors are doing, just
what you are doing to move theneedle forward in customer
success within your business. Ilove that. I do love that. Sue,
(39:42):
thank you so much for sharingall of your insights with us
today. There are so many notesI've taken, I love all your
play on words. They are thebest . I would love to
wrap up our session today withour quickfire questions, which
is typical where I ask a fewquestions and I'm going to
challenge you to try to answerthem in one sentence or less .
Are you ready?
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Had to be hard .
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Alright , my first question for you is, what do
you think is next for thecustomer success industry
Speaker 3 (40:09):
For the future? I think we really need to anchor
this positioning as a , anearned booster and no longer as
a churn buster.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I love it and I completely agree. And the next
question is, which SaaS productcan you not live without as a
CSS professional? Zoom,
Speaker 3 (40:24):
.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, that's true.
very, very criticalpart of our day. And the next
one is, what is your favoriteCSS learning resource
Speaker 3 (40:33):
That's gonna be difficult in one sentence,
, there aremany out there, you know, the
different forms, the Slackchannels, the , the Customer
Success Association. But I haveto say, I think say one of the
best resources is if you go tothe meetups and the events, for
me, that's the greatest sourceof learning because you can
have long conversations andunderstanding and, you know,
(40:56):
different , uh, meetings andnetworking. And I think that's,
that's the, the best kind ofinteraction that we can have
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Agreed. I think the online digital interactions,
whether they're calls, whetherthey're group interactions,
whether they're just forums,they're all great. But I think
you really find your peoplethat are going through similar
either learning curve with youor they're going through
growing pains within theirbusiness, within customer
success and you have similargrowing pains, you usually get
(41:23):
those type of interactions whenyou are meeting in person. So I
think it's so important to, tobe at those events too.
Absolutely. Amazing. And mylast question for you today is,
who is inspiring you incustomer success or whom should
we have as our next podcastguest ?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Well, the obvious answer is you Anika for that
.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
That is so sweet .
Thanks Sue . I would love to bethe guest , uh, and the host of
my own podcast. We could switch
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Roles . We could switch roles, Monika, that
would be great. Yeah ,.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Aw , thank you Sue.
That is so kind. And if any ofour listeners have any other
questions or wanna follow upwith you or speak to you
directly about some of thetopics that we talked about
today, what is the best way toget ahold of you? Right.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
So you, you can follow me on LinkedIn. I'm a,
I'm a regular user of LinkedIn,so please connect with me on
LinkedIn. You can follow alsosuccess chain . We have a a
LinkedIn success chain page andI'll be happy to, to meet you,
have a little chat. I'm alwayspleased to , to chat with
like-minded CSM, so that'd begreat.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Amazing. Thank you again, Sue, for your time.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Thank you Anika.
It's been a wonderful and seeyou soon on the CSS circuit.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Thank you for listening to the Customer
Success Channel podcast today.
We hope you learn something newto take back to your team and
your company. If you foundvalue in our podcast, please
make sure to give us a positivereview and make sure you
subscribe to our channel as werelease new podcasts every
month. Also, if you have anytopics that you would like me
to discuss in the future or youwould like to be a guest on the
(42:57):
podcast, please feel free toreach out. All my contact
details are in the show notes.
Thanks again for listening andtune in next time for more on
customer success.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello everyone. I'm your host, Anika Bert , and
welcome back to the nextepisode of the Customer Success
Channel podcast, brought to youby Plan Hat , the Modern
Customer platform. This podcastis created for anyone working
in or interested in thecustomer success field. On this
podcast, we will speak toleaders in the industry about
their experiences and theirdefinitions of customer
(00:26):
success, and get their adviceand best practices on how to
run a CS organization. TodayI'm speaking to Sue Namath
Moore , who is a communitybuilder, entrepreneur, and
consultant. She's passionateabout helping companies sees
leaders and teams evolve in thecustomer success process. She's
(00:48):
the co-founder of Success Chain, a customer success enablement
consultancy. Today, we will belooking back and speaking about
the future of customer success.
As we wrap up 2023, it's timeto plan our next year of growth
and strategy within customersuccess. The last few years
have been a bumpy ride incustomer success, but as we
look forward and plan for 2024,there is growth and opportunity
(01:12):
ahead. Let's chat to Sue abouther thoughts around customer
success planning for 2024. Sue,welcome to the podcast. I'm so
very excited to have you herewith us today. Before we jump
into our topic for today, canyou please tell our listeners a
little bit more about yourselfand how you started in customer
success and how you've ended upwhere you are today?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes. Well, first of all , thanks Ika for your
invitation, and I can't wait tosee you again in person on the
CSS circuit as we're justtalking about. So for those
that dunno me, I'm called SueAbbit more . I'm a passionate
evangelist of customer successhere in Europe. As you can
gather, I'm British. I'moriginally from a place called
(01:55):
Darby, which is in the middleof, of the uk, but I've been
living in Paris now for, Idon't say over 30 years,
three French sons, and I'm onlythe misfit in all that I think
I, I speak fluent French and alot of people say still with a
very funny accent,
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Speaker 3 (02:18):
So anyway, they say it's farming, so I'm just gonna
continue to do that. And theco-founder of Success Chain ,
which is , which is a companywhich helps , um, companies
either to put into place or tofine tune their customer
success strategies andoperations. So I'm the
co-founder along with JasonWhitehead and Kelly Lucas. I'm
(02:40):
like Hugh Akai . I'm passionateabout bringing together the
community. So I've beenorganizing for the last seven
years , uh, customer SuccessMeetup in Paris, and it's there
where we hold regular meetups,which are now hosted by
different companies. I alsolived in Lisbon for a couple of
years , uh, just before Covidhit , and was organizing
(03:00):
regular meetups there as, aswell for, for a couple of
years. I'm also the co-founderof Engage Paris, which is a
French speaking customersuccess summit. I think it's
one of the rare customersuccess summits in the world,
which is not in English thattakes place every year. So
we're organizing our fifth ,uh, edition for next June. And
(03:23):
I also, I used to love , uh,contributing to events and
podcasts like this , uh, whereI can share my passion, share
my learnings, because I thinkwe're all learning all the time
in customer success. Uh, it'snever ending . It's a wonderful
profession. And just on apersonal note, yeah, I just
love spending time with myfriends, having drinks and
cooking and , uh, being with mythree sons. And I love
(03:47):
traveling and going to visithistoric places and castles and
just eating great food anddrinking excellent wine ,
making
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Amazing. I also love the expat story, Sue, as an
expat myself, I haven't been inthe UK as long as you've been
in Paris, but it is somethingthat I always think about with
the accent. It confuseseveryone that I'm here and then
I have an American accent, butthey're like, you're in London,
why do you have that accent ?
And I'm sure that has nevergone away for you living in
(04:16):
Paris, and still you have anEnglish accent, although I
wouldn't say it's that strong,but I guess everyone there
definitely hears the Englishmore than the French, so I hear
that
Speaker 3 (04:27):
, it's, it's weird actually,because, you know, some people
find it , uh, surprising. I'vebeen living here so long and
still do have this lousyEnglish accent when I'm
speaking French
think it's a question of howold you are. You know, if had I
come here as a kid, I probablywould've lost my lousy English
(04:48):
accents. I think it's, youknow, it's , it's all in your
mind. And, and probably in thegymnastics of growing up.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, definitely. I would say the same. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (04:56):
That's my way of consoling myself. So
Speaker 2 (04:59):
majority of my life in the USbut also I grew up there and
that's what I knew whenlearning language, how to
speak. So that is the way it'llprobably stick no matter how
long I stay in England.
into the customer success sideof things. I know you're super
passionate about everything incustomer success. From the
(05:20):
events, from co-founding yourown business, from bringing the
community together, as youalready stated, what actually
inspired you to start work incustomer success? I speak to so
many leaders and professionalsin css, and I think we all have
such unique journeys, and Iabsolutely love that about our
profession. And I would love tohear your unique story of what
(05:42):
inspired you in customersuccess. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I agree with you Annika, and I was really
inspired to do customer successeven before I'd heard the term.
In fact, just to tell thestory, I've been in software
now since the very first CRMstarted in Europe. So that's
going back like the turn of themillennium, you know, which,
which makes me sound reallyanxious .
(06:06):
first started to see Salesforcearrive in France around 20
years ago. And at that time I,I was a project manager for,
for Salesforce. And I justobserved back then the massive
non adoption of Salesforce. Um, I probably think it's still
probably the case even now, 20years later, to be honest. And
, and that's when I firststarted to become interested in
(06:28):
change management. And so Ipivoted my career at that time
to become a change managementconsultant, mainly for CRMs.
And it was at that time when Iwas also working for a French
integrator and we wereimplementing and integrating
lots of different kinds ofsoftware. Not just CRMs, but
business intelligence tools,MDMs, intranets, HR Systems.
(06:50):
And back then our , our companywas pivoting and they, they had
a new logo and a new baselinecalled Driving Distinction at
that time. And it was then thatI proposed to my CEO , I said,
look, you know, if we reallywant to drive in distinction
and walk the talk of , of thisnew baseline, then we really
must put something into placeto make sure that we actually
(07:13):
are doing something differentfrom our competitors. So that's
why I suggested to him to putinto place a whole new offer,
which was on top of theintegration offers where we
could actually focus on goingbeyond the go live for our
customers and start to reallytalk about tangible results and
(07:34):
outcomes as a result of theirinvestment. So this is where
the CEO , he gave me hisblessing. He said, go ahead,
Sue, go and do it. So I becamean intrapreneur at that
integrator, and I, I put intoplace a whole new transversal
offer for the company, whichreally did differentiate us
because, you know, I was, I wasputting in this offer, which
was a combination, it was ablended offer between change
(07:56):
management and customersuccess. And which had the aim
of getting our customers oncethey'd done their integrated go
live to go beyond that. So weactually had a team of 10
people, which, which I , um,hired to, to do that. So at the
time,
(08:18):
think of a name because, youknow, that was back, that was
13 years ago. And we'd neverheard of customer success then,
particularly in France, youknow, so at the time, I , I
called this offer, it's funny,actually, I called it the BBC
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Broadcasting Company. And ithas a different neat meaning
Speaker 3 (08:37):
absolutely has nothing to dowith top gear , nothing to do
with match of the Day. And itwas an acronym, you're right,
Anika , it meant boostingbusiness change. That was the
B, B , C . And you know, inhindsight , um,
you think, you know, whenyou're trying to tell people
what you do as a profession,you say, I'm in customer
(08:58):
success. And you see thereaction of people saying, oh,
you know, that soundsinteresting. I think it would
be much better if we said,
booster. I think thattranslates
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Oh, that is an even better name than customer
happiness. 'cause I feel like Iget that all the time when you
say, oh, I'm in customersuccess. So you're in customer
happiness, but business boosteralso sounds like a great way to
put it.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
I think. So I think it translate nicely what we're
trying to say in a very longkind , usually a longwinded
explanation of what we're doingin customer success.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
No, but what you just said around change
management, I think thathappens every day in customer
success. And I think it's veryunderrated. And like you said,
with the evolution ofSalesforce, but all the, also
the evolution of us moving fromon-premise to SaaS businesses,
there was so much changemanagement that happened there,
and it was understood becausewe were actually physically
(09:51):
changing from being on-prem toCloud-based. But we do that
every single day in customersuccess. Change management is
something we're doinginternally, externally with key
stakeholders. You name it. Ijust feel like we do it all the
time. And your fun way ofsaying we're B, B , C or
boosting business change thatis so accurate. I think that
(10:12):
that's a great way of puttingit. And I know that you have
quite a few other things toshare around our topic today,
which at the time of usrecording this, it is coming to
the end of 2023, and we aremoving into 2024. So I
definitely wanna talk to youabout what your thoughts are as
we move into the new year. Butbefore we actually talk about
the future, we've had a lot ofchange in the last few years in
(10:36):
customer success. And the lastfew years have been a rocky
road in customer success aswell. I don't ever think CSS
has been easy, but the last fewyears have definitely tested a
lot of businesses, a lot of CSSleaders. Um, what is your take
on what's happened in customersuccess over the last few
years?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, that , that's spot on Anika , and I think ,
uh, you know , we've beenthrough a real rollercoaster
ride, I think o over the lastfew years. And we've certainly
seen that, you know, from thedifferent events that we, we've
taken part in , uh, especiallyon the London scene as well.
For me, that the biggest breakI think was back in 2020. You
know, we're right in the midstof covid, and although Covid,
(11:15):
it was a catastrophe for, forthe world, I think that Covid
actually puts customer successon the map. Definitely.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, I , I mean, we , we speak to a lot of , uh,
CSS leaders on a regular basis,and a lot of them told me, you
look, you know, since Covid,they, they've been seen and
perceived internally at theircompany as being strategic and
no longer just a fifth wheel ofthe wagon, right? So it really
helped 'em to put 'em on apedestal. So I think that, you
know, going through toughtimes, like, like Covid
(11:46):
companies really had to pivot,you know, obviously it was very
difficult to gain newcustomers, particularly in
certain impacted markets likehospitality and travel. So
covid, you know, it , it helpedus to really focus on, you
know, how to retain andprobably even to expand by
offering different servicesduring those, those covid
times. I also think anotherresult of covid was the heavy
(12:09):
investments in SaaS generally.
Um , so there were hugeinvestments made as a , as a
result of covid just to keep usall connected, you know, and
keep us all collaborating andworking together, you know,
working from home with workingsolutions, remote education
solutions for, for children and, and students. So as a result
of that, you know, with thisincrease in SaaS, there was
(12:30):
also an increase in theprofession of customer success
going back in 2020 as we'recoming outta Covid, we're
seeing this increase in, in theCSS roles across the globe, you
know, and if I just comparewith last year and you saw the
job market, you know, the jobmarket this time last year was
exploding. And it's somethingwhich I look at regularly
(12:52):
because I, I regularlycommunicate at this, at the
different meetups and events.
However, what we've seen in thepast year 2023 is sad, you
know, because we've seen allthese massive layoffs,
particularly in customersuccess, where we've seen lots
of CSS leaders and evenpractitioners and even whole
teams have been laid off. And Ithink this is a result of the
(13:15):
recession in , in the us youknow, we see particularly us
that's been impacted by, bythese layoffs, but this has had
a kind of snowboard effect,particularly in the uk, which
is a bit like the 53rd state ofUnited States
haven't seen that so much herein France because of the
(13:35):
protection laws, you know, for,for the job markets . Yeah. So
with all these layoffs, youknow, just in the tech sector
alone, I was reading anarticle, they're saying like
something like just , just thisyear, 168,000 people have been
laid off just in tech. Youknow, obviously not all that .
That's crazy. That's crazy,
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right? That is such , that's such a heartbreaking
number. And like you said, theCSS world has yo yoed so much
over the last three years. Itwas at the highest high when we
got a seat at the table becauseeveryone was realizing in the
pandemic that it's better andcheaper to keep a customer
rather than acquire a new one.
And then the cash influx fromthe VC or the capital world
(14:17):
resulted in, you know, higherat all cost . And CSS was seen
as, like you said, up on apedestal and they were just so
important. And it was great tosee that, but now there was
such a crash and it's soheartbreaking to see the
layoffs continue to happen. AndI think it's something that we
have to take into considerationas we plan for 2024 and as CSS
(14:37):
leaders that are currentlythinking about their budgeting
or their planning, or maybecoming to the end of it and
thinking of what should wefocus on going into the new
year, knowing what we know forthe last three years. I think
it's a tough question to answerand I think it's something that
we're figuring out, but I knowyou have some really strong
feelings about what the futureof CSS is, and I'd love to hear
(14:59):
from you what you think as aCSS leader, someone should be
focusing on knowing what weknow, but also looking forward.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Absolutely. And , and I think within this context
and, and this historical kindof lead up to, to where we are
now, we've just been talkingabout Annika , I think that we
are really facing a dilemma incustomer success. And I still
think we're struggling toposition the role of customer
(15:29):
success as a growth engine. SoI would say, you know, view to
this rollercoaster experiencewe've had over the , over the
last three years, is the timethat we should really be
focusing on how to positioncustomer success as a growth
engine. So how do we provevalue of customer success
internally to our companies,thanks to driving value to the
(15:55):
customer. So I really think,you know, in , in the hindsight
of all these layoffs, you know,we're still, as you just said,
ed , we're still going through, uh, very difficult times. And
I think that customer successin these difficult times is
still perceived as nice tohave. It's still perceived at
this cost center, which we caneasily dismiss. Mm-Hmm,
(16:16):
we should be changing. And Ithink, you know, I'm always
using this term where we needto really focus customer
success as being a earnbooster. Mm-Hmm
and no longer this legacy ofbeing a churn buster.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Ooh , another play on words. I'm loving all these
things, Sue earn booster ratherthan churn buster. Yeah ,
Speaker 3 (16:38):
And of the time, you know, when , when I'm saying
companies putting customersuccess into place, it's a
reactionary measure to bustchurn . And
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think that's a historical fact. If you think
about it. I mean, customersuccess is an evolution in
SaaS, but if you take it wellback, we fall into customer
service or support or in theway of something's wrong, let's
fix it. And that's usually atthe cost to a company rather
than thinking of a profitablepart of the business. So it is
coming back to what you saidabout change management. A very
(17:13):
big thing a CSS leader has tofocus on is not only how do you
position yourself as a growthengine, but how are you going
to influence other businessleaders within your business to
really understand how customersuccess is actually that growth
lever rather than the costcenter like you just said. And
it is a tough time, and foranyone who's listening that's
(17:33):
going through any layoffs orthinking about how I'm gonna go
into 2024, my personal view isthat CSS always comes back
stronger no matter what we'vebeen put through. I, I feel
like looking historically, we,we tend to come back stronger.
And we do do that because Ithink we're a very resilient
bunch and we are constantlythrown everything. 'cause CSMs
(17:54):
have to do everything under thesun sometimes, and because of
that we are very resilient. Butbeing this growth engine is, is
something that I think is notnew, but it's something that is
hard to put into practice asyou've just, you know, said
we're , we're known as churnbusters rather than the revenue
piece. So if I was a CSSleader, thinking about going
(18:15):
into growth into 2024, what aresome of the KPIs I should focus
on? What are some of the, Iguess, change management I
should be doing to change thatwording around from, from being
a churn buster into the, intothe revenue piece? Yeah,
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I , I think as, as a customer success leader, I
think what what's reallyimportant is, is to know how to
tell compelling stories to therest of the company. So the
other leaders that you justmentioned, but also your, your
C-suite and how to join thetops between the activities
which you and your team aredoing in customer success and
(18:50):
how this impacts the revenueand the margins of your
company. You know, salesleaders, they've been doing
this with their eyes closedfor, for years, you know,
salespeople because, you know,they have relatively simple
KPIs, you know, their KPIs,okay. They have a quota to, to
go and sell. So it's verysimple. When you look at cs,
(19:12):
you know, we have a wholeplethora of different KPIs.
There are many different onesthat we could be using. But for
me, what's really important is,is for a CSS leader to really
tell the story with, for me,there were four sets of KPIs
which a CSS leader should beusing, right? And I think in
order to do the storytellingwith those four sets of KPIs,
(19:35):
it's necessary to join thedots. So what are those four
sets of KPIs? I think ideallyin, in a SaaS company at least,
you know, everybody's talkingabout the NRR, right ? As , as
, as a main indicator for me, Ithink the NRR is is not a css,
KPI, this should be acompany-wide, KPI, to which
(19:56):
everybody contributes in thecompany . All functional roles,
including the CSS role, ofcourse, right? So CSS leaders,
they should have KPIs thatprove that they are actually
contributing to the NRR theyand their teams. So what are
these four KPIs? I've put theminto four buckets. The first
(20:18):
set of KPIs are all aroundcustomer outcomes. That's the
first one for me. This is byfar the most important leading
indicators which customersuccess leaders should be using
to prove that they arecontributing to net revenue
retention. And we'll be lookingat some of those later on . The
(20:38):
second set are , are the , thevendor business KPIs that prove
that the CSS team is actuallycontributing to the bottom line
and to the NR . The third areKPIs around adoption and health
scoring. And the fourth areteam performance KPIs. But I'd
like to focus on the first tworeally more than anything , uh,
(20:59):
because I think that's what'sgonna make the difference about
becoming this growth engine. Sofor me, the first one is , is
the time to time to value, thefirst time to value what
constitutes the first ahamoment of gain and progress ,
uh, for the customer. Somecompanies are measuring the
first time to value, others arestill struggling. But beyond
(21:21):
the first time to value, wealso need to put into place
KPIs which measure incrementalvalue after that first time to
value.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yes. Oh, I so agree on that. I, I'm nodding my head
viciously. I know no one cansee me, but I feel like we
focus so long , much on time tolaunch, or time to live, or
time to first value, like yousaid, but it is so much more
than that. It is the fulllifetime of the customer being
with you and making sure theysee value at incremental
(21:51):
moments like you've just said.
So, completely agree.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Absolutely. And because that is quite difficult
to do, you know, it's not aneasy task. So, so I think, you
know , as a consequence of that, uh, in custom success, we've,
we've been ignoring that , uh,because it's difficult. So any
, anything that's difficult,you tend to put your head in
the sand. And I think that'swhere we are now, and we ,
that's what we need to changein , that we need to put into
(22:16):
place frameworks, data, and youknow, we , we have facility for
that now with artificialintelligence, and I'll come to
that a little bit later, butit's really important that we
start to come out of our shellabout that and really start to
put stuff into place, whichmakes it easy for your
customers to measure tangibleresults. Right,
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Another one is the detection of promoters. I mean
, I know that, you know, every,every time we talk about NPS in
customer success, it's, it'slike the more might effect, you
either hate it or you love it.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
customer success.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It's , I mean , we could do a whole podcast on
that, but
Speaker 2 (22:54):
No, I , I think we could write an entire thesis on
it. Like I think the , theamount of controversy that one
KPI can cause in customersuccess, we could go on for
years about the topic of NPS.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Exactly. But what I think is really important is
that in , in customer success,though , we're actually
actioning, you know , the, thedetection of promoters. So any
promoters that we're detectingthrough NPS, you know, this is
something which we can bereally leveraging and making
sure that this is one of theKPIs. You know, we detected so
many promoters that then becomeadvocates and detecting
(23:27):
advocates and actually doingstuff with ad advocates, you
know, making them advocate onyour behalf, making referrals,
et cetera, et cetera . We canmeasure that. And that's a
great KPI, which we should bemeasuring. I think at Success
Chain , which is my company,we've also started to implement
other very customer centricKPIs, which are now customer
(23:48):
success leaders, but also theirteams to measure customer
outcomes from the perspectiveof the different types of
customer contacts, which youare having conversations with.
So, you know, you're , a lot ofthe times CS we're having
conversations withstakeholders, the decision
makers . So we put into place awhole KPI, which measures,
okay, what is the valueperception score as a result of
(24:12):
their investment? So askingstakeholders, it's a bit like
the NPS, but it's, it's what wecall VPSA value perception
score, which measures, okay,are you getting value as a
result of your investment forthe users? We're , we're
implementing , uh, a similarthing. We call it the G, the
GPS job perception score,which, which this time , uh,
evaluates whether the actualend users are getting value and
(24:35):
whether it's actually helpingthem do their jobs better.
Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Which is, again, the value piece is so critical, I
think, in everything we do incustomer success. And a lot of
times, I, I believe NPS doesn'tmeasure that value piece and
that's really hard to track.
But like you just said, thevalue perception score is how
much value are you getting outof this product? This call,
this interaction, whatever itis, is so, so important. And I
(25:03):
think these are all great KPIsand I think as a leader,
there's lots of things you canfocus on going into 2024, and I
think there's a lot of leversthat can be pulled to focus on
growth, but you do have to makethat connection between how am
I driving value for mycustomers while driving revenue
for my business? I think that'sa very big bridging gap that as
(25:24):
leaders we have to tactfullyand regularly tackle when it
comes to our role in 2024 asCSS growth engine. So I love a
lot of what you've shared thereon what we can do. On the flip
side though, if I'm A CSM, alot of times a cs M'S mindset
is being proactive or trying tobe proactive, but our actions
(25:48):
end up being quite reactive. Sowhat are some of the ways that
A CSM can move away from beingchurn focused and more customer
value and outcomes focused ?
'cause we are alwaysfirefighting. It's a natural,
it's a natural thought in aCSMs head. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Absolutely. And , and I think that's it. You
know, we're like a , ahamstring, a wheel of trying to
think the first thing forA-A-C-S-M to become more
proactive and , and to be morefocused on values and outcomes
as, as opposed to being thischurn buster I is to really try
and have conversations with thecustomers which are focused on
(26:27):
value and outcomes. Now, that'snot always easy because, you
know, the customer a lot of thetimes tends to orientate the
conversation towards things ,uh, which he can see the
tangible things which he cansee in the tool. So he is
talking about features andbells and whistles. 'cause
that's the emerged parts of theiceberg, which everybody can
see. So it becomes like acomfort zone, you know, to be
(26:50):
talking about bells andwhistles and features and
functionalities because that'sthe shared part of the emerged
iceberg, which everybody sees,right? So I think one of the
responsibilities of the CSM tobecome more proactive is to try
and orientate the conversationto start talking about matters
and, and , and themes which arein the submerged part of the
(27:11):
iceberg. So the submerged partof the iceberg, what we're
talking about is the intangibleaspects such as human behavior
routines, change managementprocesses, which maybe have to
be changed as a consequence of, um, implementing your tool.
You know, you never, you neverimplement a tool and it's a
standalone thing where you'rejust pressing buttons. A tool
(27:32):
is al also part of a context,and that context is the
business context. So customersuccess managers need to
proactively better understandthat business context and to
see how the tool is actuallycamouflaged within that
context. Um, so that's, that'sone thing. And obviously
elevating the conversation.
(27:52):
Another thing that we, we haveput into place so that CSMs can
become more proactive atsuccess chain is our framework.
So we have a framework which wecall A MPM , which, which
literally translators, yeah,morning and afternoon of course
afternoon if you haven't gonethrough the morning. And A MPM
(28:13):
means activity measurements,performance measurements. And
what we're doing with thisframework is mapping out based
on the different performancemeasurements, so meaning the
customer outcomes, what wouldthe, the different users and
even stakeholders need to do interms of activity and how can
they measure that activity . Sothere's a correlation between
(28:37):
activity measurement and therecan be several different
activities and in order to getto a performance measurement,
so just to rize this, thisframework, I always use the
analogy of a coach, a gymcoach. So just to give you an
example of this, A MPMframework, just to, to give you
(28:57):
analogy of the gym coach,imagine , uh, that you are a
persona who wants to lose 10kilos. Well, this is not,
imagine this is real life forme, losing my 10 kilos, right?
measuring as whether or notwe're gonna be losing these 10
kilos and order to get there.
We have activity measurements,which we're also going to be
(29:19):
measuring. So the activitymeasurement for losing these 10
kilos will be to run sixkilometers three times a week.
It could be to consume no morethan 2000 calories per day. It
could be to work in a gym twicea week and sleep at least seven
hours per night, for example,to make sure we're losing
those, those 10 kilos. So thesame applies for B2B world. You
(29:42):
know, obviously if you are aBDR persona for example, and
you are using a lead generationtool, then your performance
could be, okay, how to increasemy conversion rate by 2%. So
then you would decline thatperformance objective into
different activities, which youas a , a proactive CSM are then
(30:02):
recommending your customer,your end user to do in order to
attain that 2% conversion rate. And that's something which
you can measure within thetool. If we're talking about
tool adoption, obviously youhave that data already, but
it's also something which youcan raise mutual expectations
about with your customer sothat they become transparent
(30:24):
and, and that they aremotivated to share that
information with you when it'ssomething which is not obvious
within the tool, for example.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That makes complete sense. And I think that having
those drivers that connect whatyour customer's values are to
the business revenue part isso, so important. And I think a
lot of times it's not spelledout for customer success
managers. And as leaders, Iwould encourage you to spell it
out, just like you've done withthe gym analogy. It's okay,
(30:55):
here is NRR is our North starmetric. Amazing. We're gonna
make sure we're increasingrevenue and reducing churn.
Okay, but how are we gettingthere? Where are the key
indicators or what are the keyactions that I would need to
take as a customer successmanager to do those steps? It
needs to be broken down assimply as what you just said
(31:16):
with the gym analogy, which Ithink we sometimes forget. We
get so caught up in thebusiness or business as usual
topics of, yes, we need toincrease revenue or yes, we
need to reduce churn, but how,what is the step by step guide
on how you do it? Which isanother question I do have for
you is how do you drive valueor ROI for your customers and
(31:39):
make sure you connect it backto business growth. Because I
think in CSS it's considered adirty word that we're
upselling, but I don't thinkthat has to happen in a
specific call. I think we drivevalue in all the calls we do.
So how are you takingeverything we just talked about
frameworks and outlining thatinternally and then making sure
as a CSM you're having thoserightful conversations with
(32:01):
your customer that's givingthem their outcomes, but
driving growth for yourbusiness.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah, it , it is and I think it , it becomes a bit
of a taboo subject. You know ,we're talking about upsell,
it's still a taboo subject, butno, I think we, we need to have
those very open and transparent, uh, conversations right up
front with our customers. Sothe customers, you know, you
know that we're, we're here tohelp you make business as a
customer and as a consequence,this will also help us to grow
(32:27):
our business, not just from afinancial point of view, but
also from a point of view ofperfecting the offers that we
are actually going to beproposing to you as a customer.
So it really is this kind of ,uh, viral spiral of, of win-win
growth where instead of usbeing two entities, you know,
the customer and the vendor,it's almost as if we're
(32:48):
becoming one, you know, becausewe're helping each other. I
scratch you back your back, youscratch my back. It's this kind
of viral spiral of health andwealth. And I think to, to join
the dots between the ROI andthe value of the customer and
how this is growing yourbusiness, I think you really
need to put into place thoseindicators, which we've just
been talking about, and makesure that you have dashboards
(33:10):
which can actually connect thedots between the customer
outcomes and ROI and how thatis becoming a leading
indicator, which is actuallyforecasting the future growth
of your business. So you shouldbe putting those dashboards
into place to show thatcorrelation and to show, you
know, we're talking aboutleading and lagging indicators.
(33:30):
And for me at the moment, Ithink in the world of customer
success, we are still usingleading indicators, which are
very vendor centric, verynegative, you know, using churn
a lots , which is in , initself a lagging indicators ,
not even leading indicator. SoI think we need to revise the
whole set of leading indicatorsthat we're using to make that
(33:52):
correlation with the bottomline. And I think, and the best
call for that is to startputting into place leading
indicators around customeroutcomes.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, I totally agree. 'cause there is a lot of
lagging indicators in customersuccess, especially even NRRI
know it is our north starmetric, but it is a lagging
indicator because you have tolook back in order to predict
it. And we should be able tolook forward to predict our
revenue, our outcomes, and ourcustomer value . So it is
(34:23):
something to go back to thedrawing board and think as
leaders and see asprofessionals of how this looks
moving into 2024 so we canposition ourselves correctly as
that growth part of thebusiness. Now Sue, we've talked
a lot about different things,different levers, different
ways that you can positionyourself to be that growth
engine going into 2024, but Ithink some of our listeners
(34:47):
would want to know some of yourlearnings or tactical takeaways
of anything you've learned whenwalking the fine line between
customer ROI and businessgrowth. Because again, it's
almost a dirty word to say,Hey, we need to focus on the
revenue and the sales or theprofit because we're, we're
(35:08):
customer relationship people.
But I would love to know whatare some of your learnings
around walking that fine linebetween ROI and business
growth.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Maybe we even need to redefine, you know, what,
what we mean by businessgrowth. Because if we're still
having this as, as you say ,this kind of association of
this being kind of a , a taboosubject because you know, we're
talking about finance, we'retalking about money, then I
think we need to redefine, youknow , what we're doing in
customer success . Because I ,I think it's really important
(35:37):
to understand that customersuccess is about business. It's
not just about relationshipbuilding. Relationship building
is a means to an end, but theend is, is to make business and
business is not necessarily adirty thing. You know,
business is , is the way thatthe world has always , uh,
ticked. And so we can just cancontinue to do that, but in a
way which is, let's sayholistically beneficial for
(36:00):
both the vendor and thecustomers. It's probably the
first time in business thatwe've had this privilege of
working together, right? Sothat's the first thing, the
learnings that I've had,because it's not easy to do.
Everything we're talking aboutof course is not easy, but the
learnings that I've had in , inputting all this into place is
that vendors should really makethe effort to propose this
(36:22):
mapping of tangible KPIs forthe customer and the vendor to
measure. And I think, you know,because up until now we've been
finding it difficult, so it's abit of burying the head in the
sand. Um, so what we need to dois we need to really put into
place this whole framework ,uh, by rolling up our sleeves.
So we need to do a lot of workbeforehand. Like, you know, I
(36:43):
mentioned the A MPM . That issomething which takes time. You
know, you really need to do alot of research about your
customers, whether it'sinterviewing them, whether it's
doing research, you know, aboutmarket research, about, you
know, what are the pain pointsfor your tick particular
personas. And then when you'vedone that, that work and it is,
it is a heavy lifting to dothat, that then becomes easy
(37:07):
for you to, every time you havea new customer that you are
onboarding, it's very easybecause, you know, if you ask
the question to your customer,okay, what does success look
like? They probably won't beable to answer. And a lot of
the times they dunno how toarticulate that, right? It's
probably not the right personeven that you're speaking to.
So if you can be proactive andhave this framework say, look,
you know, customers like you inthe same vertical as you,
(37:30):
they're , they're already doingthis and this is what they're
measuring and after threemonths of doing this, that, and
the other, this is where theyget to in terms of outcome,
right? So you can do that andand, and make sure that it's
something which is easy andtangible and take it in
bite-sized steps so that, youknow, as we said earlier, you
know, you have your first timeto value, but then because of
this framework you can knowthat after the first six months
(37:54):
you can attain another value,which, which is even more
impactful than the first timeto value. And so you go on
along the customer journey. I
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Love all those pieces. I think they're so, so
important to remember that it'sabout the first step, but it's
also building on the frameworksthat you've just built. And I
think that that's a big part ofwhat we have to do moving into
2024 and planning for 2024 islooking at the frameworks that
we do have, but readjusting andmaking sure that we take step
(38:22):
by step progress on buildingout that growth engine based on
what we have. We don't have tostart from scratch, like you
said, you , we already havevery strong frameworks, but
it's about positioning, it'sabout making sure you have
growth levers and leadingindicators rather than lagging
indicators. And I think all ofthat is what we have to build
on to make sure 24 starts withsuccess.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Absolutely. And I think, you know, 'cause the,
the indicators, the leading andlagging indicators that we've
spoken about is reallyimportant. But I think as well
that , that I think there'sanother kind of taboo subject
in the world of customersuccess and I think that's
being vocal about what you aredoing and the impact that
you're having on your company.
I , I've seen so many CSleaders, I dunno if it's , um,
(39:04):
due to modesty perhaps, but Ithink we should shout really
loudly about the impact thatwe're having, you know, so
every time you have a wonderfulcustomer testimonial or
customer that said, you know,they're getting value or
whatever it is , then that'ssomething we should communicate
about internally regularly .
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I, I do agree. I think it's something we don't
shout about enough and wedefinitely should do more. So
if that's on anyone's to-dolist for 2024, make sure you
highlight what you as a leader,but also what your department
is doing, what your individualcontributors are doing, just
what you are doing to move theneedle forward in customer
success within your business. Ilove that. I do love that. Sue,
(39:42):
thank you so much for sharingall of your insights with us
today. There are so many notesI've taken, I love all your
play on words. They are thebest
wrap up our session today withour quickfire questions, which
is typical where I ask a fewquestions and I'm going to
challenge you to try to answerthem in one sentence or less .
Are you ready?
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Had to be hard
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Alright , my first question for you is, what do
you think is next for thecustomer success industry
Speaker 3 (40:09):
For the future? I think we really need to anchor
this positioning as a , anearned booster and no longer as
a churn buster.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I love it and I completely agree. And the next
question is, which SaaS productcan you not live without as a
CSS professional? Zoom,
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, that's true.
one is, what is your favoriteCSS learning resource
Speaker 3 (40:33):
That's gonna be difficult in one sentence,
different forms, the Slackchannels, the , the Customer
Success Association. But I haveto say, I think say one of the
best resources is if you go tothe meetups and the events, for
me, that's the greatest sourceof learning because you can
have long conversations andunderstanding and, you know,
(40:56):
different , uh, meetings andnetworking. And I think that's,
that's the, the best kind ofinteraction that we can have
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Agreed. I think the online digital interactions,
whether they're calls, whetherthey're group interactions,
whether they're just forums,they're all great. But I think
you really find your peoplethat are going through similar
either learning curve with youor they're going through
growing pains within theirbusiness, within customer
success and you have similargrowing pains, you usually get
(41:23):
those type of interactions whenyou are meeting in person. So I
think it's so important to, tobe at those events too.
Absolutely. Amazing. And mylast question for you today is,
who is inspiring you incustomer success or whom should
we have as our next podcastguest ?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Well, the obvious answer is you Anika for that
Speaker 2 (41:44):
That is so sweet .
Thanks Sue . I would love to bethe guest , uh, and the host of
my own podcast. We could switch
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Roles . We could switch roles, Monika, that
would be great. Yeah ,
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Aw , thank you Sue.
That is so kind. And if any ofour listeners have any other
questions or wanna follow upwith you or speak to you
directly about some of thetopics that we talked about
today, what is the best way toget ahold of you? Right.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
So you, you can follow me on LinkedIn. I'm a,
I'm a regular user of LinkedIn,so please connect with me on
LinkedIn. You can follow alsosuccess chain . We have a a
LinkedIn success chain page andI'll be happy to, to meet you,
have a little chat. I'm alwayspleased to , to chat with
like-minded CSM, so that'd begreat.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Amazing. Thank you again, Sue, for your time.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Thank you Anika.
It's been a wonderful and seeyou soon on the CSS circuit.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Thank you for listening to the Customer
Success Channel podcast today.
We hope you learn something newto take back to your team and
your company. If you foundvalue in our podcast, please
make sure to give us a positivereview and make sure you
subscribe to our channel as werelease new podcasts every
month. Also, if you have anytopics that you would like me
to discuss in the future or youwould like to be a guest on the
(42:57):
podcast, please feel free toreach out. All my contact
details are in the show notes.
Thanks again for listening andtune in next time for more on
customer success.
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